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Chills and Thrills with Debbie Babitt · WriterCon

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This week on the writer Con podcast. Well, what I would say is
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never stop writing. And I understand that you can't write every day, although
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you should and I don't always, but never give up. I know that
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sounds a little trite at times, but never give up your dream. Keep
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writing. You will find what you need to find. You will find an
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agent, you will find a publisher. If not, you'll find it another
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way. But if you have that story inside you, and those characters and
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that voice, you know what you were meant to do. Welcome to writer
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Con, the gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the
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writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award winning author of
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the Want Lynn Files book series. Hey they're writers. Thanks for joining me
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and Laura Bernhardt and Jesse Ulrich. Last time, I wrote possibly the biggest
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story of my career, the fact that when of my books has been banned
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in Florida. That's what made me realize that. You know, it took
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sixty books and thirty plus years, but now I've made it. But now
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I know that this podcast has made it because wait for it because we were
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referenced by someone we covered in a news story, and it would be the
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last person you might expect. Regular listeners may recall. I think it was
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in the Christmas episode when we reported on PER. That's PI r R,
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a European company using AI to generate what are essentially going to choose your own
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adventures, except the adventures are what word would you use, Jesse? Yeah?
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Ironic? Oh, spicy? Spicy for sure, but spicy. They've
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got some heat to them. Poornographic, but they definitely have some heat.
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Yes. I thought they might be upset if they heard our coverage since we
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did have a little fun with it, but apparently they were delighted. I
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loved it and posted about it, Jesse. You've got that graphic, don't
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you. They posted on X and all over the place on social media and
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said quote, we are glad to hear their perspectives on utilizing PER and its
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potential impact on both writers and readers, adding a unique dimension to the conversation.
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Well, Jesse, were you surprised when you saw this? I mean
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one, yes, I'm surprised they heard it, and that also means that
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there is a writer there's at least one listener to this podcast who is also
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on per He told them a minute. Ah, that's an interesting then diagram
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to our spicy listeners. I thank you, Laura. I don't know if
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you noticed, but they referred to you in very flattering terms. I think
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maybe maybe you could get on their writing staff. Ooh, I would consider
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that proposition. Yeah, take a look at that. It's stuff for me
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to turn down writing gigs writing. Yeah, money's money. We should.
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We should also ask our agent friend Amy if she likes the service, because,
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as she told us at writter Corom this year and on the cruise,
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like keeping spicy. That's that's another thing we can say about the cruise,
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isn't it? Because Amy was predicting what we're about to talk about in the
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new story like eight months ago. But anyway, all right, before we
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get to that, our interview today is with Debbie Babbitt, who is the
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author of now two thrillers, Saving Grace and First Victive, and she's got
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a third out in May. She's launching her career like a rocket, which
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I know is the dream of many people. So we and understandably so,
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so we will talk to her all about it. But first, the news.
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Well maybe news was the wrong word, but that's what we say every
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time, so I'm just going to stick with it. What we're actually doing,
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we do this every January on the podcast, basically look into our crystal
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balls and try to make predictions about things that we think are going to happen,
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are going to be big and trending in twenty twenty four, and I
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came up with a list of four basically quick preview new genres will emerge,
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AI will continue, duh, back book banning might continue, and of course
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the FTC is going after Amazon for antitrust in a big way. Let's start
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with the first one, Jesse, because you were just talking about Amy on
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the cruise. I think that was the first time I'd heard spicy romance.
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This is another benefit to the cruise, Jesse, because you were just mentioning
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Amy and she predicted what was going to happen months before it actually did.
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But as we know later in twenty twenty three, the Fourth Wing by Rebecca
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Yarros became a huge breakout hit. And now Pe and Fuller talking about a
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new genre they call romanticy, which is essentially a blending of romance and fantasy,
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but with a young adult or perhaps new adult protagonists. The protagonist of
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the fourth wing is twenty, for instance, so that would be classified as
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new adult. But it's more than just romance and fantasy. The romance part
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is much more more explicit than some people might expect in a book for young
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people, and there's lots of swearing and violence as well. It's not your
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mother's Nancy Drew's basically, and now from Catherine SAMs, who will, by
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the way, be our guest on this podcast next weekend, but she tells
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us that she's hearing blips from publishers about gas slap fantasy, which is essentially
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steampunk except with magic, you know, instead of science fiction is fantasy.
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And the other thing she mentioned, which she knew I'd bring up, was
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sugar kink, which is apparently kinky, but not so much. It's like
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there's a little bit of s and M content, but not full out erotica.
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So this is what sweet and spicy kind of like a sweet kinky.
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Well they didn't say sweet kink. I guess that's true. That's where we're
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getting with sugar. So which one are you going to write first? Laura?
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I mean you were talking about writing for sugar King, might be maybe
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sugar King. Actually, what I would like to see added to this is
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steamy punk. I actually am a fan of steam punk, so we could
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mix that up and have some some some extra heat to that and get some
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steamy punk going. It sounds like you just take a genre and just put
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more kink and or sex into it. There we go, and I would
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say we're all in. Yeah, but the current gen of readers, yeah,
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well, and what you listen like you go back and read classic fantasy.
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There is romance in there, It's just not the romance we are used
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to today. I would say, for example, that The Lord of the
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Rings is actually a love story between Proto and Sam. Right, but so
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like scenes exactly unless you read the appendencies. King don't read the first of
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all, you're expert, maybe so would you read I bet you've read steampunk
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before. Would you guess slamp fantasy? Oh? Yeah? I mean like
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putting? Would you do? Is take you take something interesting and put it
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into a time period or a place where it is not usually there, and
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then that is always interesting because like magical things are usually either modern or old,
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not like a little bit old, Right, and I like the idea
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of mixing like magic and steampunk feel like a perfect partnership because like steampunk is
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almost kind of it's like, it feels like magic to the people living in
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it, So why not just throw the meshal magic in there. Maybe the
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really best selling winning combination would be to combine all three of these things.
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So you've got a novel that's set in the nineteenth century and it's kind of
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steampunky, but there's also magic and romance ex and of course sugar kink.
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You think we can get all that into a book. Absolutely, I be
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able to sell that when okay, Topic number two, which of course we've
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been talking about for probably the last three or four months, and it's going
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to continue on into the next year. A bunch of lawsuits have been filed
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by The New York Times, by several celebrities. By the author's guild,
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they may end up combining some of those lawsuits, but clearly it's gonna be
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challenged. Where do you think will be at the end of this year?
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I'll get Jesse, you're r tech expert. Where's this going? Yeah?
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I think we were also just sort of amazed by AI and these you know,
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large language models llm's as they are called. When they first came out,
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that like we all forgot to ask, like where they got all their
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information from. And now that's publicly coming out that like they just scraped the
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Internet and scraped people's property and work, Like people are owed something for that.
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One, there needs to be rules about what they're allowed to use,
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and then there needs to be recompense for the fact that a lot of these
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AI models ended up using things that people spent you know, years of their
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lives working on, Like I think that's fair. You know, AI has
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its usefulness. There are great ways to use it. We had a conversation
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at work about this. Have a I was talking with someone who is just
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completely one hundred percent like AI is a curse word to this person now,
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and I was trying to explain, you know, predictive text, it's AI
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when you are typing and word catches a misspelling, that's aise. These things
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can can help us out. What we don't want is for it to be
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stealing someone else's work. If it's improving your own creative work, that's fantastic,
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So I put it in line with it. If it's helping make your
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work better. Is that any different than having a tutor or an editor someone
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like that. If it's improving your work, I'm all for it. If
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it's saving you time in doing some research. If you can use Google Translate
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on your ram and noodles that you ordered from Japan and you can't tell how
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you're supposed to cook it or what the flavor is, then great, that's
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terrific. I know that sounds oddly specific that what I was doing for lunch
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today. There's great uses for AI, but when, as Jesse said,
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if it's stealing from someone else, from their work that they put so much
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time and effort into, that's where and that's why now we're finding we have
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to put some rules in place. Yeah. What I would predict for twenty
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twenty four, I think is we're going to see more licensing deals. We
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have already seen some, and you know, if you're a legit company using
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AI, the simple solution is pay some among the licensing rights to use their
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material. Okay, Number three book banning, Well, we started that at
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the top of show with me bragging again that I've been banned for it.
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But it has affected writers other than me, and as we reported, earlier,
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Penguin Random House, the largest publishing house in the English speaking world,
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along with a lot of other people, sued IOWA over its new book banning
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legislation, and did in fact get a judge to issue a preliminary injunction against
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most parts of the law. That's not the last word, of course,
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but it does mean that it doesn't go into effect yet. I think basically
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he's going to let it be appealed up and up and let somebody else decide.
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But the judge noted that the law quote here I'm quoting the law is
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incredibly broad, and in anticipation of the law taking effect, has resulted in
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the removal of hundreds of books from school libraries, including, among others,
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nonfiction history books, classic works of fiction, publitz are prize winning contemporary novels,
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books that regularly appear on advanced placement exams, and even books designed to
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help students avoid being victimized by sexual assault. That seems a little too broad
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to me. What do you guys think? Book banning makes me crazy?
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The fact is that these ya titles that deal with harsh realities are able to
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reach students in a way that some of the books from Cannon just can't do
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because they're so old. They don't feel like they can connect to these books.
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Imagine somebody who's having difficulty talking about an abuse situation, or their sexuality,
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or there maybe their socioeconomic status. When you can open that book and
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connect with someone in your situation and feel like you're not alone, that makes
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all the difference. And I think it's critical that students have access to this.
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I one hundred percent agree that it violates violates our amendments. I sometimes
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said, you know, I watched what my children are bringing home and reading,
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and I didn't try to I didn't try to limit that. I don't
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want to shield them too much. The books are a good way to start
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learning how to navigate some of the harsh realities of the world we live in,
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and it's a safe way to do that. Yeah. Well, you're
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raising the issue of age appropriateness, which is kind of what the judge is
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saying. This is too broad. You need to be more specific about how,
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when, what, and where. I mean, my book Dark Eye,
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as I've said a couple of times now, has apparently been banned,
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but I don't know why or from where. I mean, if it were
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on the shelf in a kindergarten. I would have taken it out. It
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shouldn't be there. On the the other end, it was taken out of
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a public library where adults go. That's a whole different thing. You know,
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librarians are incredibly intelligent, they're smart people. A school librarian at an
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elementary school is not going to have age and appropriate books. And it would
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irritate me as a parent if another parent wanted to ban a book because they
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don't want their child to read it. If I'm fine with my child reading
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it, I don't see why somebody else can opt to exclude it from the
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entire school. All right, last topic I'm going to go to because just
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as we have to mention AI every time, it seems we have to mention
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Amazon, right, but in this case, and Jesse always wants to mention
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James Patterson. Of course, the main things are AI and Amazon, And
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as we previously reported, Amazon's now being sued by the FTC, the Federal
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Trade Commission in seventeen states for anti trust, and many people, including the
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Nation publications, have called it the biggest antitrust fight of our time. Not
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much has happened so far, Amazon's filed emotion to dismiss They always do that.
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It's not going to have work, and this suit will take years to
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resolve. What do you think is going to happen? Jesse, where do
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you see this going? Well, this is one of the things where it
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also depends on what happens in the next presidential election too. So yes,
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I was trying to dodge politics. But you're totally right. But let's just
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say, let's say the lawsuit continues. Right, Amazon broke really the one
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central rule that you know, our nation's governments over the last thirty years have
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been okay with monopolies up into a certain point. But the mistake Amazon made
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it was they started competing against people selling on Amazon too much, Like like
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I can buy Amazon basic melatonin, right, Why Amazon making you know,
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medicinal gummies? They don't need to, they want to. And this is
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where if Amazon has to side whether they are a maker of things or a
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marketplace of things. And they got what they went way too far into the
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we're also going to make We're going to see what's popular, what people are
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buying, and then make a cheaper version of that thing that not cool that
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they can then that they can then advertise and put front and center and bring
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all the attention to so not only will it make a better deal, it
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also gets put front and center. Amazon st Yeah, stop showing me half
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a page of sponsored things before until you show me the thing I actually starts
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for. Stop it right. It's possible they could reach some kind of compromise.
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This has happened before, just remind everybody because we're reported on this too.
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But in twenty twenty two, Amazon's settled with the EU, the European
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Union, which had also brought an antitrust case against Amazon. So Amazon changed
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around some of its business practices and settled the lawsuit. I don't even know
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how this one could be settled, but that's a possibility. And of course,
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as I think Jesse is suggesting, if the next presidential election goes Republican,
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the case could be completely dismissed. So depending on who that Republican is,
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it might continue going on just because certain people hate Amazon and the owner
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of Amazon, so that it'd be an interesting it'd be an interesting fight there
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to see what happens there. You raise an interesting point, Yes, so
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indeed, ironically it might continue. Who knows predicular right everyone. That's our
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Crystal Ball Gazing for twenty twenty four. Jesse, cue up the music.
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Let's talk to Debbie Batman podcast. Thank you so happy to be here.
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All right, we have a traditional first question here. If you could offer
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writers one piece of advice, just one pair it down to that essential one,
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what would it be. Well, what I would say is, never
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stop writing. And I understand that you can't write every day, although you
19:18
should and I don't always, but never give up. I know that sounds
19:26
a little trite at times, but never give up your dream. Keep writing.
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You will find what you need to find. You will find an agent,
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you will find a publisher. If not, you'll find it another way.
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But if you have that story inside you, and those characters and that
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voice, you know what you were meant to do and you will succeed.
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Ultimately. Love it. I love that, no matter what, no matter
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what, even when you have those dark knights of the soul which we all
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get all yes, everyone, everyone experiences those moments. Yeah. So you
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have two books published, Yes, you're Saving Grace and First Victim, and
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you have one that's about to come out. Yes, yes, The Man
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on the Train comes out May seven, and these are all thrillers, right,
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Can you tell us about Saving Grace? Yes. Saving Grace was my
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twenty twenty one debut, and it's about girls who go missing in a southern
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town in northwest Arkansas, and the story takes place in two time periods.
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Mary gray Stobs, my main character, is an eleven year old orphan in
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the first part living with her aunt and uncle, and two classmates go missing
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at the same time. The adult Mary gray Stobs the sheriff of the town
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and a single mom herself. As we go back and forth, she's sheriff
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at the time, and another girl goes missing. Oh wow. What's unusual
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about Saving Grace is it's a hybrid because it's psychological suspense, but it's also
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a who done it? And you don't usually have the two together mysteries or
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who done it ecological suspense? We know or how and why done it?
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So I'm Saving Grace is unusual that way. And then yeah, your second
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book, First Victim, Well, of course that caught my attention because it's
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kind of sort of a legal thriller, right, this wonderful female judge protagonist
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tell us about that book, please, Well, my characters come to me
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in voices. So I saw this courtroom and it was a murder trial,
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and I saw this woman in a long black robe enter the courtroom and take
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the bench, So I knew I had my main character, Alice, and
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she's presiding over a murder trial. But like all thrillers, there's always a
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past. So something about this trial and this defendant, he's on trial for
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the murder of a pregnant woman, talks to her and calls to something in
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her past, so she grapples with that while she's presiding over this murder trial
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and trying to be as we all know, judges have to be unbiased,
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objective, and she's got a family, She's got family issues and emotional things
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going on in her life, so everything's kind of at the breaking point for
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her and this trial comes along with the defendant, who then decides who wants
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to go pro se. So it's like a battle of wills in the courtroom.
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And that's part one that sounds very and that's just the elevator pitch good
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one. But you would be the expert because you've written on that subject,
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haven't you. I know that in addition to writing, you've done a significant
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amount to help other writers find their path and there, which is sort of
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the writer con you know what we're all about. So there's this book called
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Making the Perfect Pitch, and you've got an article in it, right adventures
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and copywriting exactly. This is really interesting. I had stopped acting. I
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was a playwright. I walk into a bookstore and I'm thinking what do I
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do for a third act? And I meet a woman in a bookstore.
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I'm looking at the Harlequin romances, thinking I could write these, but I
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don't read romance. So I didn't want this woman who was there next to
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me to think that I would read romances. So I said, I'm thinking
23:15
of writing a romance and she said, really, my sister's associate publisher of
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Harlequin, and they need people to write back covers. I said, what's
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that. What do you mean don't editors write their own flap copy in back
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covers? And she said no. So I met her sister. She rips
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the back cover off a paperback and says, write it. A new career
23:37
was born. I became a freelance copywriter. I was ultimately offered a position
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at Kensington Walter Zacharias Zebra, and that was the first copy chief they ever
23:48
had. And from there I went to Penguin when it was merging with Putnam,
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and I became the head copy chief there. And that's true. I
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got to work with authors all the time, writing the copy, getting approval,
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and at one point I thought I should just write my own book.
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I'm in this business writing all this great copy for other authors, which was
24:11
really lovely. They were very grateful. I remember with El Doctor Oh,
24:15
I had to read one of his huge books and write copy in two days.
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And I met him in a restaurant and he said, you did a
24:23
great job. And I didn't want to tell him I didn't have time to
24:26
read the whole book. I took a screen reading course and he said,
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you did so it was like his wife took my head and said, you
24:34
were so wonderful, and I didn't want to say, you know, I
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didn't read it all. But you have to learn how to really, I
24:41
have to say that copywriting honed my craft. So you have to pack so
24:47
much information and exposition into a limited number of words. So it taught me
24:52
discipline. It taught me how to get everything out in a way that doesn't
24:56
seem like you're giving exposition and is still active active verbs. So I really
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learned a lot from copywriting, I have to say, and that stayed with
25:07
me and I still keep my hand in a bit and I like to help
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authors and ripe blur, you know, and then you have to get the
25:15
reviews and cut them down and make everything work. So that was actually very
25:18
good, a very good background for writing a novel. That's fascinating. I
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think that could be a good exercise for a lot of authors, actually learning
25:30
to cut down and learn what's really important and what's not. Sometimes I struggle
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with with getting that message across. Kindly, this isn't really open the book
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right now, So that's that's fascinating. Thinking that you wanted to write romance
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but you're writing thrillers. Well, where do you get those ideas? I
25:49
mean the books sound very compelling, I mean funnier. Did you hear something
25:56
that prompted this? The Girls that Have Gone Miss It's interesting. I don't.
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I was thinking of writing a romance even though I don't read them,
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So it's a good thing I didn't go down that path. But I grew
26:07
up reading mysteries and suspense. That's my mother had in the house. I
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couldn't wait to get my hands in the next Nancy Drew remember those Black Yes
26:15
I read Yes, Oh my god, I had read all of them.
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I don't know. Oh, they're so wonderful. So it was natural for
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me to want to write in this genre, and it's always starts with character
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for me. So in Saving Grace, it was this eleven year old orphan
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in the South, and little by little she was talking to me and showing
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me her state in her world, and she started revealing herself. So that's
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how it works for me. I don't know if you have acting you have
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acting background, I thought, I do, do you know? Konstantine Stanislavsky,
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he said, character is action, so everything has to go out of
26:52
character. It's got to be organic. So that's you know, you're writing
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a thriller and you have to have and twists and turns, but you don't
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want everything to come from the reveal. I remember one author said she starts
27:07
with the plot twist and then comes up with the characters. So for me,
27:11
I feel like all that has to come out of the character's behavior.
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And that's a little challenging because you're writing in a genre and yet you're writing
27:19
character based stories, and yet you have to make sure all the twists and
27:25
turns work the reader doesn't learn them too fast or too late, or it's
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a balancing act. But I love suspense. I wonder if our theater I
27:33
feel like I'm on the same page with you there, and I'm wondering if
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our theater background helps drive that the character development and allowing the story to grow
27:44
out of that. I would say, so. I mean, I remember
27:47
when I was acting. I would write pages and pages of biography on my
27:49
character. You too, Hey, that's a point where I in your proversation
27:56
to the point write anything you want to get up on the stage anymore.
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Started we write my lines, which is when I realize I have to really
28:02
be writing. But that's what I would do hours and hours, and that's
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I think that really enriches our work to have to be driven. And I
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think that's what readers like, because they stick with characters if when they get
28:18
everything else, it's like your friend, you open up the pages and you
28:22
go spend time with these characters that you like. It feels like you're spending
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time with friends. To me exactly, and you know I was going to
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ask you about this bill because of your series character. And I know this
28:32
is maybe premature with a new suspense novel coming out, but I'm working on
28:36
my fourth book, which is an idea for a series, and when I
28:38
do author events, I take a poll. Now because you mentioned Larry,
28:42
you mentioned characters people can relate to, and I'm thinking, is a series
28:48
a good idea? Because if you have a character as you know that people
28:51
really glom onto and readers life, they are going to continue to, you
28:56
know, buy your books, read about your character, and then you have
28:59
this character are that goes on for it. So I'm thinking, for when
29:04
it's character driven, a series seems like a perfect idea. I mean,
29:10
you know, well, there are two schools of thought on that, at
29:14
least what I think you're saying, and I've heard both A spouse that places
29:18
like you know, thriller Fest or whatever where, And certainly at one point
29:23
in time people were saying, no significant changes should happen to your series character
29:30
during the course of a book, because people aren't necessarily going to read them
29:33
in order and they get confused, and so love interests always have to die
29:38
at the end and they don't move or get a new job. Or anything
29:44
like that. I always thought that's just so almost. I mean, you're
29:49
sucking one of the great pleasures out of novels. So when, like I
29:56
did the nineteen really twenty if you can partners in crimes so far as been
30:02
kincaid series, he grows our changes or matures in some in every book,
30:10
And that really wasn't that. I mean, we all go on so many
30:14
character arcs in the course of our life, so many growth periods, and
30:19
I think we don't even realize it. No, that's so true. And
30:22
then there's sequels and prequels talking about riturning characters. I left loose threads,
30:29
not intentionally, maybe subconsciously in Saving Grace. That would be so perfect for
30:34
a sequel. And I kind of feel like maybe you feel this as authors
30:40
too, when you write a suspense that's a standalone that you're not the character
30:42
hasn't finished talking to you, and there could be room. So that's another
30:48
way. I mean, that's interesting too. I mean there's so many ways
30:49
to go with character. I do think that your your series ideas is a
30:55
sound one that when people love a character, they're going to keep coming back
30:57
to it. I have a series that I read. I just finished I
31:02
think book fifteen maybe, and I switched over to just to stand Alone,
31:04
to another author that I like, and I really enjoy her too. But
31:07
I'm already feeling that tug back. I'm missing my other friend. Oh,
31:11
I love that. Look at Steve Barry. His eighteenth alone book is about
31:17
to drop next month. It's right. They can keep going when people love
31:21
them, when they're yes, that's a good idea. Oh my god,
31:25
I know. And then it's really it's a pleasure to write character anyway.
31:27
I mean, curios. You know, the story is great, you want
31:30
all that to work, but character is everything. We have a lot of
31:37
aspiring writers who listen to the podcast. Can you talk about your path to
31:44
publication? Yes, I wrote Saving Grace. As I told you, I
31:49
was a copy chief and I wrote Saving Grace and I sent it out to
31:52
agents and happily an agent took me on and then he actually said, should
31:59
we put this out on submission? Auto Penzler is starting a new imprint for
32:04
Penzla Publishers and Mysterious Press called Scarlet, which will focus on female protagonists and
32:09
female authors, although it's not limited to females, and he said, we
32:14
could give him an exclusive, which what do you think we should do?
32:16
And I said, oh, I don't know. You know, I've never
32:20
been published. Let's give it a shot and see. And I like the
32:23
idea of a new imprint, especially female centric. So it happened really quickly.
32:29
I got my agent quickly, I got my publisher quickly, and I
32:31
have a wonderful editor, Louisa Cruz Smith, fantastic, She's incredible, and
32:37
she's been with me through Saving Grace, first Victim and the Man on the
32:42
train, so she's I'm so happy that you've had good experiences. Yes,
32:46
yeah, I feel very fortunate because I've heard many lots of different stories.
32:52
Yes, so have we. Yeah, I know, Well, what is
32:58
a typical writing day like for you? Are you still doing the are you
33:01
still doing the copy writing? Or have you stepped away from that and you're
33:06
focused on writing books now. I'm doing just a little Harlequin believe it or
33:10
not, they still okay. You know It's funny is Saving Race was published
33:15
by Harlequin and their Mysterious, their worldwide Mysteries. And I thought, how
33:20
funny. I've come full circle because I started writing copy. So they asked
33:23
me to do their intrigue line. It's not a lot, but I can't
33:27
say now, and it's so much fun. And of course I speed through
33:30
the book or they give me an outline if they don't have a book.
33:32
So I do do a little of that, but basically just writing my books.
33:37
And i'd like to say I get up at the morning and I write
33:40
all day, but I don't some days. But I do get up at
33:44
five point thirty and I'm writing by seven thirty, which I find my life
33:47
has changed, going to bed earlier and getting up earlier. And I thank
33:51
my husband Ted for that, because he said, we have to change our
33:52
habits. So I do that, and then sometimes I go to the gym
33:57
in the morning, but then I plot while I'm on the machine. And
34:00
I used to talk into a recorder, but now I talk into the phone
34:05
because it's a lot to input the recorder, which isn't even the real writing
34:08
yet, and that's why it takes me a really long time to get to
34:10
the first draft. When you talk into your phone, it gets the words
34:15
wrong a lot, but yes, you know you kind of no, So
34:20
I do that and then I come back and write in the afternoon. Some
34:22
days I just write straight through and go to the gym, maybe like three
34:25
or four, because my best energy is usually in the morning, like between
34:30
seven thirty and twelve thirty, and then sometimes I'll get a spurt of energy
34:34
and write a little at night. So I know some writers say I do
34:37
a thousand pages of thousand pages, a thousand words a day. Yeah,
34:40
that would be something. It was Steve Coley, Stephen King. But I
34:45
just kind of sometimes I'm plotting and sometimes I'm doing the chapter, and then
34:50
I rewrite so much that I write a chapter so many times that I can
34:55
say this is finished, but it may not be. But it took six
34:59
hours, you know, during the day. And I think of Oscar Wilde
35:02
who said I spent all morning putting in a comma and all afternoon taking it
35:07
out. I know, but I do try to every day. Do So
35:15
do you do you plot out before you are? You? Are you a
35:19
panther or a plotter? I'm not doing some editing as you go, So
35:22
what's starting point? I'm a panther because it comes to me in the character
35:28
and then they start to reveal their world and then things happen. But it's
35:30
really funny because you're in the thriller genre, so you do need your structure,
35:36
and you do need everything in the right order. So what happens is
35:39
I do so much internal stuff before I get to start to write. So
35:46
maybe a chapter. I'm going to start writing the book, and it's already
35:51
in my head so many different ways. Then I sit down and it changes
35:53
again, because it's organic when you sit down. So I would say that
36:00
I'm really a pans but there comes a point where I have to start plotting.
36:02
And when I get my editor the first draft, she said. You
36:07
know, some people give me hot messes, she says, and then we
36:09
have to totally work on it. What I try to give is almost to
36:14
finished product. And that's just because I rewriting. I can't write a whole
36:19
draft and then go back. I have to write as I go and get
36:22
it right as I go. So she may have some yeah, so I
36:25
have to do it so and outlines are very hard for me because I keep
36:29
deviating. Yeah, outlines. I was like, oh no, and I'm
36:34
writing this. I was surprised to hear that Lisa Gardner considers herself a panser.
36:38
That really threw me. So this is fascinating to me. I love
36:43
hearing that everyone finds what works for them and they go with it, and
36:46
as long as it's working for you, I think you can find success.
36:50
And I love that and I want our listeners to hear that because that concerns
36:54
me. I don't want anyone to think, well, I can't write because
36:58
oh I don't get up at five point thirty in the morning, and so
37:00
I can't just keep there's whatever works for you, there's a way you can
37:05
find it. If you're going to write, do it and do it your
37:07
way. It's okay. Yeah, I met many plotters, I've met all
37:12
different Yeah. Absolutely, and whatever works and you feel good about your book,
37:15
that's that's that's what counts. That's what counts. Absolutely, and hopefully
37:20
everyone will love it and all the readers will want to come back for more
37:22
and find your voice and say, oh that's true. That's another problem.
37:27
But you're going to spend so much time on it, you better love what
37:30
you're writing, right, Oh, yes, definitely true. We probably need
37:36
to close this off, Debbie, but before I do, remind everyone about
37:40
your forthcoming May release. I'm going to hold it up. This is the
37:45
advance even better train. I just got my advanced reading copies last few weeks
37:50
ago, and I love what they did. I love the people. It's
37:54
an abandoned lighthouse which figures prominently it's mantle and even know he's the man on
38:00
the train. This is like the view from the train. I just think
38:02
they did a great job. That's the best feeling. That's great. And
38:06
I a married man who sees a beautiful woman on a train and things take
38:10
on. And there were two murders forty years apart, so there are two
38:15
time periods. And the book comes out from Scarlett Suspense May seven four.
38:21
It's very hitchcocking and so I think everyone will like My Man on the Train
38:27
will fantastic. Debbie, thanks so much for being on the podcast. Oh
38:31
this was so much fun. We can talk all day, all night,
38:35
right. Thank you for having me. It was really really fun to listen
38:39
and see it. Just a few parting words, Laura, what can you
38:51
tell us about Well, you know, I'm going to talk about the cruise
38:54
again because I'm already about half packed for it. I'm a little bit excited
39:01
to head out in April. We will have my gosh, we'll have seven
39:07
days that will be on that ship where you're locked in place, and you're
39:12
going to come to class every day, and you're going to get instruction from
39:17
Bill, from me, from surprise guests that we haven't even revealed yet,
39:23
seven people I think already. I guarantee somebody will be there and can speak
39:30
to you about what your writing needs. If you are in a position where
39:34
you're still trying to finish your manuscript and you can't quite seem to get past
39:38
that finish line, we're going to give you the tools you need to get
39:42
there. If you have finished your manuscript and you are experiencing what happened the
39:47
first time I finished a manuscript, where you go back and read it and
39:50
think, hmm, this is this is not good. This actually kind of
39:54
sucks, and you need to know why it's not working and you need to
39:58
fix it. We can give you the the tools for that too. And
40:01
if you have finished it and you're trying to figure out how to reach an
40:06
agent, how to market it, whether you want to go traditional publishing or
40:10
indie publishing, we're going to give you those tools too. And if you
40:14
need something that we didn't mention, there's going to be somebody there that can
40:17
answer that question I have to do, speak up and ask. And it's
40:21
just the nicest group of people, so you won't be afraid to ask.
40:23
And we have so much fun we do. You might even get to see
40:28
Jesse singing karaoke. That's right. Maybe we'll play Neanderthal poetry again and Jesse
40:35
will beat you over the head with a club. I still got the hat,
40:39
so I still love how you were perfect listeners have no idea what we're
40:52
talking about, but that's why you need to come up the nerves you're in
40:54
on the inside. Jokes. Yeah, all right, until next time,
41:00
everybody, keep writing and remember it. You cannot fail if you refuse to
41:05
quit. All right, see you next time. M h m hm