Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Kids and Clothing | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 1

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Kids and Clothing | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 1 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Motherhood Uncut.
0:01
SPEAKER_00: We are so glad that you're here.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, bring to this podcast all of those conversations that are actually kind of hard to have around motherhood.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: We will be talking about things that make you laugh, that probably make you cry in the best of ways, that move you, that inspire you, that teach you new things.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: And we are really committed to this podcast because we really believe that nobody should be mothering alone.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: So come jump in with us, pour yourself a glass of wine, cup of tea, put on your running shoes, turn on the audio in your car.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Come be with us for a bit.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: We can't wait to mother with you.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Today in this episode, Kate and I are gonna break down clothing.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: This is a layered and complicated topic.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: It brings up all sorts of our own judgment, our fears of being judged, um, battling between what's expressive versus what's quote unquote appropriate.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: It's a tricky topic, and we try to break it down for you.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: So I hope you enjoy the show.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: Hey there, listeners.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: It's Kate.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I am so excited to share with you my new 12-week program.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: This program is designed for high-achieving women who are mothers of kids about birth until 12 who are struggling with anxiety and guilt and burnout and overwhelm and exhaustion.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: And this program is here to help you learn how to move through life both inside and outside of motherhood with more grace, more ease, more calm, so that you feel well mentally, emotionally, psychologically, so that you feel well, and so that your kids have what they need to feel well.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: This program is designed to help you create those secure attachments with your kids that they need and want, and give you everything that you need to access those things outside of motherhood that you love and feel passionate about without all the anxiety.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: So jump on over to our show notes and book your free call with me to discuss whether or not this program is right for you.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: I cannot wait to talk with you.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: As many of you know, I provide services like psychotherapy, parenting support, group facilitation, and public speaking all along the topics of deepening connection.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: The Mother Daughter Journey specifies in mother-daughter connection, but a lot of my talks are not gender specific.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: And the good news is that many of my topics are also very practical for strengthening partner and friendship connections.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: I just wrapped up my fall season of my workshops, but if you want to stay in the know, go to my website at motherdaughterjourney.co or debrubin.com.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: They take you to the same place and sign up for my newsletter where you'll receive fun facts and tips to increase your connection.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: You will also stay informed with any upcoming offerings.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Lastly, I have loved doing curated courses.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: So if that is something that sounds interesting, definitely email me at deb at debruben.com, and together we can create something specific for your community and help build your parenting village.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: I look forward to working with you.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: Hi.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: Happy podcast day.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Happy podcast day.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
3:35
SPEAKER_01: I am doing pretty well.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm appreciating this weather change.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Um coming back from COVID.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: Babe, this is season four of Motherhood Uncut.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: We've been uncutting from four seasons.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: You did have COVID.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: You you were knocked out.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it took me down.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: I get knocked down.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: How many times do you listen to a song and like make up the words?
4:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you do that.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: All the time.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: I actually feel like you often know the words to songs.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: No, you're wrong.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: That's the total projection of how you want me to be too.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: So I see you as knowing all the answers.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: I make up words like nobody's business.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: The this weekend I was um up in the mountains with Jamie.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Tell me, tell me what you think of this.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: And I said, um, oh my god, what was the what was the thing?
4:38
SPEAKER_00: I said, I know, I can't remember.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I was making up, I was making a statement like when you make up a euphemism.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, that is not what how it goes.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, yes, it is.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna think of it halfway through this podcast and interrupt it.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Please do.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Because I also make those up all the time.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: I know.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: Like I'll be like beating a dead cow.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I don't even know.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, this is what I said.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: That was good.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: I said, beating to she she is, I guess, she beats to her own drum.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's right.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Jamie was like, it's March to her own drum.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like beats.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: That's what I said.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I was like, it should be beats.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: It might be March, though.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: I I think it is, but in my mind, doesn't beat to your own drum make sense.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Actually, no.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Actually, this is such a good entryway to our topic.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Why?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Because I know it is not a dragon.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like I feel like we can beat to our own drum with what we wear on our bodies.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Connect the dots.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: So take us there, caters.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: What are we talking about today?
5:51
SPEAKER_00: Today we are going to dissect, uncut, uncover this dilemma that might be a dilemma, might not be a dilemma, but when our kids start wearing clothing or dressing in ways that we as mothers might be uncomfortable with.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: You're looking at me like I'm not saying the title the right way.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: I just know it's wonderful.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm just waiting if there's more.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's like that's right, and I think we should just get right into it.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Like when I have a cli I had I have clients constantly that are like, my nine-year-old wants to wear a crop top.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: What do I do?
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: So wait, let's actually go way back in time and just acknowledge the good old days, which didn't last for very long for me and you, but when we could pick out our kids' clothes for them.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: You know that was only two years for me.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it wasn't long.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: But remember, you know, that early stage where you're like, Oh, I want my baby to look this way.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: And all you had to do was pick out the clothes that you thought represented that way and put them on.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, there's my baby.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: And then as uh when our kids hit about the two-year-old stage, they were like, You're not telling me what to wear anymore.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: They pretty quickly actually just for a little humor before we jump in.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: What was like a phase of dress that one of your girls went through that was just kind of cringy and not the way we're talking about today, or adorable or hilarious, or embarrassing?
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: I okay, I I'll tell you, cringy was um Sage went through a phase where she only wanted to wear like these kind of s Waldorfy scarfs wrapped around her body.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: And that was it.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And then Tess went through a big phase where she only wanted to wear tights and t-shirts.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: Like t-shirts over tights.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: That just no, just tights.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: With a t-shirt.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: And that was, I mean, whatever.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: But I would say the what the other phases that I loved was um, well, Sage had skirty skirt.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh yes.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And she lived in skirty skirt, and she wore it every single day, and it was brown and flowery, and it went over everything, and it was really such a cute look.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: But I'll say another last thing, and that is I bought them both Grateful Dead shirts when they were little.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Of course you did.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: And they were so cute and retro and all the things.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: And they wore them for a few years, and then they went into like you know, the giveaway, but I snuck them into the special box because I love them.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: And they both just recently pulled them out and they're wearing them again.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: But now they like come up to their lower rib and they wear them and they look so cute.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: And they're representing the grateful dead.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I digress.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
8:44
SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: I have two.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: One is that Bridger went through a stage where every she had to wear the same color from head to toe.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: I remember that.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: But like they didn't really match, you know.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: So it was like four different greens or four different reds, but it like all had to match, you know?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: And then both girls, actually, I can't remember if it was Kinley or Bridger, for a while wore skirts as shirts, as strapless tops.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: And they would like pull up their little skirts and pull them under their armpits.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we really you gotta really put your ego down as a mom as soon as that self-dressing starts.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes, because it's ex it's an expression of self.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: It's an art.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Which takes us in.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Which takes us in.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think I get like I started, I get asked these questions a lot, especially, and it always comes in the same topic around sexuality, around what do I do if my kid is dressing sexy?
9:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's so interesting to me that clothes and sex go together in our minds a lot.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm obviously speaking about girls that are socialized as girls and and daughters, and and but I think this is a conversation for all for non-binary, for how do we talk to our boys that identify as boy around sexy clothing and what does that even mean?
10:18
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say when you're talking in your work, I'm curious about two things.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about how you how you and I at lay people talk would define sexy, and then how you would define it given these multi-layers that you're looking at these topics with.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's so layered.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so first of all, it's a I want to start by saying when when I believe that when someone chooses to dress a certain way, there is so much more around it than being sexy.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: Okay?
10:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, because sexy in my mind means it's so confusing.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Means like this isn't that I'm not gonna say this prettily, but it means like attracting sexual behavior, wanting of sexual behavior.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Like that's what I think of.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the cultural um expectation of it.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And that's actually also kind of the social construct of how we put sexy in to the world.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, like I think this sorry, this initial definition is like sexy, if uh if we're not going beneath the surface, which we're about to do, is sexy is for someone else.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Typically a male gaze.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Which is what culture is sending the messages forever.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Which is why when our fashion is for the male gaze.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Women's fashion is for the male gaze.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: That's old school thinking, right?
11:54
SPEAKER_00: Which is why when your client says, What do I do?
11:56
SPEAKER_00: My nine-year-old's dressing sexy, we go, oh crap, because she's nine.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And if that's the definition.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, then we're projecting that onto this child.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: And we're projecting it onto a 15-year-old too, you know, and a 17, you know, whatever it is.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: So this is where I always pause of this is a question that this is a conversation that's very, very challenging because it brings up our own personal values that are so unique to each individual.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: It brings up old societal beliefs, it brings up religious beliefs, um, and it brings up like this purity culture that is still really kind of deep in in many of our systems, mixed with all the media and the messaging and marketing of what and how people should dress, which is very much giving a message of honor your body, you know, be dress however you want, be sexy.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: Sexy's good.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: Like there's and none of us, um, everyone has such a different experience with that.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So it always has to start with parents, what is happening for you?
13:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Which I'm gonna actually come back to that at the end because I have a series of questions that I want parents to ask themselves.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: But I think the bigger question is right now is what well, what do you think of when your kids what are your what's your stance on how your kids should dress?
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, just for um our listeners' sake, this is not the first time you and I've talked about this.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: This is like so I want to acknowledge that this is an involved answer.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: After many times of talking about this, I have never put limits on what my girls can and can't wear.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: It's never been a direction that I've gone in.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I that said, I mean, they as soon as my daughters hit middle school, they both began to wear there was the short, short stage, really short shorts.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: That's still yes, yes.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: And then there was the crop, very crop stage, and there's been the very form-fitting stage.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: We've kind of gone through all of that.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, immersed in that, my girls have both gone through the very big baggy stage, which is such a contradiction to the other look.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Only a contradiction if we think that they're asking for a take.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Which they're not.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And contradiction actually isn't the word I mean.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean like opposite.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Um so what is my take?
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, well, a lot of the way I work with this is based on what you've taught me.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: But I think we teach each other.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: We do.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm really likely if one of my kiddos comes downstairs in something that I feel uncomfortable about, I am doing several things because I've practiced this.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: One is that I'm really, really aware now, and I'm I think most of our listeners are too, because we talk about this all the time, that when I am judging my daughters for something, they're sort of reflecting a part of me that I'm uncomfortable with.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: And I was very much raised in a family where I was asked to not draw attention to myself.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: So when I see them dressing in a way that appears to me like they are trying to draw attention to themselves, I get deeply uncomfortable because what of what it reminds me about myself and my own discomfort.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
16:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so beautifully said, and I think so relatable.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: I can relate to that.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's that attention piece that is kind of glowing for me right now when you say that.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: So go on.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think just the only other piece that I've really learned through our conversations is that I rather than say, you cannot leave the house in that.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, there have been a couple of times I've wanted to say that just because I'm like, what my at my high school, I would have never been allowed to walk into class in that crop top or short shorts, right?
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Is I will I mean two things.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: One, I've really trained myself not to look too hard, not to stare, not to cause attention to my observation of what they're wearing.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Like to not give their to stare at their body.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, but more like to look them up and down.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Like the last thing I want is for them to see me looking them up and down.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: Because I'll just add that that creates a sense of feeling judged.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: What we don't want is our kids to feel judged.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: This is fumbly though, because I think when I've tried to, if I'm going to, if I'm deeply uncomfortable enough to say something, I have learned from our conversations and from you to say something like, you know, help me understand why you're wearing that piece of like tissue to school.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Coach us through this, Deb.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, it is fumbly.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: It's fumbly for me too.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: So I just really, really want to say that.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: And I have had many moments where they my kid not many, but a handful where my kids have come down, I've been like, uh-uh, that feels like a nighttime outfit.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And I try to like differentiate, like, and then even as I say that, I'm like, what does that mean?
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's my shit.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I just say, mm-mm.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: And then they go upstairs without questioning because I think internally they knew it as well.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Like they so sometimes we don't always have to have a reason, but let's go back to what you said of help me understand what's happening for you right now.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And I actually think that's a beautiful segue of the questions we want to kind of infuse our kids with.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And you know, one of the big things is that I it's like keep it really practical.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: And these are gonna be in our show notes, but I have questions written down.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna just read them because I think they're really, really helpful and I like keep them close by.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: So are the clothes appropriate for the weather?
18:34
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really safe question.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Not are they appropriate, yes, because that again is putting all of our projections of what is appropriate and what is not based on our value system, which is gonna be different for everyone.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: And I really want to honor all different people's value systems because for some people they really might feel very strong that short shorts are not appropriate, totally, and they have to get clear as to why.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: So I like to come back to is it appropriate for the weather?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna be warm in that outfit?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: This is not on my list, but I'm just gonna add, do they still fit you?
19:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, and that's real.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I literally had a situation just the other day where I was like, babe, those shorts are just they're just too small.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not even that they're so revealing, they like literally like let's buy you the same shorts, just one size bigger, you know.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: So this is a this is a thing in uh the culture of girls' soccer right now.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've noticed, but they all like Kinley's been wearing the same size soccer shorts for like five years.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: Interesting, they're so short, and you know soccer shorts you think of as longer, but these the they they and sometimes they tuck them in to the sides of their underwear.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a thing.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but many of it often it's there's they're too small.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just too small.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: And then just to go on what you're saying, the thing, when it's a thing, that's this whole other conversation we're gonna have in a minute, but just around the fashion industry, because that's a big piece here.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, the other question I like is are the clothes appropriate for the activity that you're doing during the time you're wearing them?
20:08
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a totally valid question.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's keeping some of the emotion out of it right now, and it actually helps the kiddo bring some curiosity and self-awareness to how they're presenting themselves.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Um are the clothes, this is my favorite, are the clothes or brands aligned with your values?
20:25
SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to bring out their values right now because they're learning who they are, which is so cool.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Are they ethically sourced?
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Are they environmentally friendly?
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Do they produce a variety of sizes?
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Are the pay, are the pay, are the paid workers getting living wage?
20:42
SPEAKER_01: And I think all of that is important because and you know, I know you and I both practice using recycled clothing.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that is not gonna align with everyone.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: I totally get that.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I just had a conversation with a friend of mine who's a very intense empath, she feels everything.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: She's like, when I walk into a um like common threads or a store that reuses and recycles clothing, I can feel all the energy of the people that wore those clothes.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, wow, that's something I would never have thought of.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Um but anyway, I think then we're just instilling ideas for how they're choosing to buy their clothes or how they're choosing to choose their clothes.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when wearing the clothes, do you feel comfortable?
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And that is like such a beautiful question.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you comfortable?
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And they might be like, hell yeah.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: And then it's hard to argue with that.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: And then the last one is when you're feeling these clothes, do you feel confident?
21:34
SPEAKER_01: And again, that is really kind of the ultimate thing that we're going for here is to help our kiddos learn and create a sense of confidence based on how they're presenting themselves.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: But it goes to the next phase, and this is a conversation that I think should happen kind of in a quieter moment, um, when it n there's not like a question of what you're wearing, and that is this is this.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: That when you're wear when you choose to wear a certain kind of clothing, whatever that is, whether it's a big baggie, whether it's a sporting message, whether it has words on it, or whether it's revealing a lot of skin, whatever it might be, we know as adults that people will make a snapshot judgment of you based on what you're wearing.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: And based on what we're wearing.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Now they don't necessarily need to feel that judgment, but we want them to know that sometimes there are consequences based on what you're wearing.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: But are you prepared for those consequences?
22:39
SPEAKER_01: That does not mean that other people's experience of you has any weight on the choices you make for yourself, but I do want you to consider what consequences might happen.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
22:52
SPEAKER_00: It totally makes sense.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm just sort of sort of like reviewing my the last week or two as you're saying this, and there was a day where my younger of two daughters was wearing something to school that um I double took, you know.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: It was more about the amount of fabric on the top on the shirt, you know.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: How much skin was revealed.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: How much, yeah, thank you.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: How much skin was revealed.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: And this is not a kid who is, you know, um presents herself in the world as wanting or needing people to give her attention and comment on her body.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: Like this isn't that kid, right?
23:37
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And the contradiction between the two last questions that I love so much that you just raised, are you comfortable and do you feel confident?
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Right, she would say yes to both of those things.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: I could tell just by seeing how she was walking through the house, right?
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: And still, there was a part of me that what I I've sort of made a commitment to myself to not, for many reasons we can go into now or not, about to not tell my girls what they can and can't wear.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: But I was uncomfortable.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: And so that is one of those moments where it's like, okay, is this a moment for me about tending to my own discomfort or about getting her to do something different so that I don't have to feel uncomfortable?
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: And it was not an easy moment for me.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it went by without, you know, it was over in four and a half seconds.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: It's not like we got into it, but internally, yeah, it was really tricky.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Can you identify what your fear was of how she was going out into the world?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, m I think my fear was, well, two things.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: I was like remembering myself as a ninth grader in boarding school in Connecticut, where if I had walked into a classroom in that type of outfit, I would have been told to leave.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Because?
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Because there was a dress code.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: And why was there a dress code?
25:08
SPEAKER_00: There was a dress code because of this.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Um uh I mean, it's an it was a school in New England in a, you know, it's not actually an incredibly conservative school, but certainly in a conservative area of the country.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there was sort of an idea of how does one dress for, to your point earlier, for school versus play.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna go into a classroom and sit down and learn, how is that a different environment than when you're out playing with your friends?
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Which is similar to like us at work, right?
25:44
SPEAKER_00: And so I think the whole thing that went through my head, and now I mean we're back to what you just said a moment ago, is is that appropriate to wear to school?
25:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Was I wondering if boys or uh girls or anyone was gonna approach her from a place of sexual attraction and expect something because of what she was wearing?
26:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that went through my head because of this particular kid.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: But there was definitely a level of appropriateness or not that came up for me.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: It's tricky.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Because I think one and this is kind of where we come back to this culture of slut shaming.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: And that that if someone is dressed in what we consider to be more provocative, they're sending a message that they want sex, and this is kind of how you started it.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: And actually, when I ask a lot of parents what their biggest fear is around it, they are like that some guy's gonna be checking them out, or more you know, extreme, they might approach them or they might even think that they're being led on.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: And my response to that is that, well, then we are actually talking about a systemic issue, not a fashion issue.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: That anyone thinks they have the right to go up to someone else or touch them or stare at them or you know, make a move without that kind of invitation or consent, that is a much deeper issue here around really like the the state of the world, you know, and how we need to change and educate people around what is acceptable and what is not of entering someone else's space.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of like okay, that back to your your question, are you prepared for what this choice of outfit might lead to that's out invite that's outside of your control?
27:47
SPEAKER_00: And and of course that is a larger systemic issue.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: I I am sort of wondering, let's let's go to the other side of this for a moment.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: What do you say to a parent who's actually genuinely afraid, genuinely afraid or fearful or feeling judgmental or whatever it is, that their child does want someone to see them as sexy, or maybe I'll even change it for the purposes of this question, sort of like sex worthy.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, like if what what do you say to the parent who's like, okay, but what if my child actually really wants people to gaze at her and want to have sex with her or him?
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but we really have to separate gazing and having sex with her.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: I know, but I'm a but I'm I'm combining them for the purpose of this question.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay like like let's say let's okay, so let's separate it.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Let's go to the let's go to the big word first.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: They're and they're asking for sex based on their clothes.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: They want people to want to have sex with them.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: What do you say to that person?
29:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm it makes me very uncomfortable that my daughter or son is dressing in a way because they want the people who see them to want to have sex with them.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: So it's such a good question.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: I think I might start with wanting to be seen as sexy and attractive and be desirable is not that abnormal.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: And wanting someone to want to have sex with you actually takes that person out of the equation.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: I think I would get curious of are you wanting to are you horny?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: You know?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Are you like to the ch like getting curious with the child?
29:52
SPEAKER_01: And this is where it is unbelievably important for we as parents to pause and come to a grounded place and and even recognize like wow, I'm really triggered right now, or something's coming up for me.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna like not say anything for a few moments, but then coming at it with some sense of steadiness to get curious with that kiddo.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, if she wants if she wants to be sexy or be sexually active, and regard I mean, of course, this is gonna be age dependent and yeah, let's let's just name that we're sort of talking about the high school aged kiddo right now.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, part of me is like, okay.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Are you well, what's important for you?
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Who do you who what kind of person do you want to attract?
30:40
SPEAKER_01: Who are you attracted to?
30:42
SPEAKER_01: How do you kind of assess when your body is giving you a message that it wants to stop?
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Or how do you prepare for, you know, being close to someone?
30:52
SPEAKER_01: So now we're moving into a sex conversation.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: That is so rarely the case with clothing.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's so interesting.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna say, because these three things got muddled, but I want to say them all because they're so important.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: I think the first thing you just said.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So my question just is again was okay, what do what do you, Deb?
31:14
SPEAKER_00: What do we?
31:14
SPEAKER_00: What does someone say to the mom who's like, I don't, I'm not okay with my, I'm just gonna say daughter, but it could be son, anyone, but I have daughters.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not okay with my daughter dressing that way because I'm afraid that she's dressing that way because she wants people, someone to see her and want to have sex with her.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: And the first thing you're saying about that is that's pretty normal.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Like that in and of itself.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: The wanting to, I just want, I guess it's the the be seen.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: And desired desired seems very normal.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm talking about.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: But taking it out of not saying I want all these people to want to have sex with me.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: That's a different level.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're right.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Because as we're translating it now, I'm talking about desire.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: I want people to desire me.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: My I okay I want people to look at me and think I look attractive.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: I think many people feel that way when they become be attracted to me.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Right?
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a place where parents can get scared.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Because to your point, that leads to a whole other conversation.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: That's now the big pink elephant in the room.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: I love when you say pink elephant.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: What is it really?
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Is this one of those things that I think it's actually just the elephant in the room, but then there's the white elephant holiday gifting and something like combined them.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so let's go back to this because I think we actually have to really separate this that wanting sex and wanting to feel attractive and sexy and desirable are two very different things.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Very different things.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And if we're talking about, and I have to, and this is this is marketing, this is the media.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they are a hundred percent targeting like dress this way, and this will happen, you know, or you'll be happy and around tons of friends and you know, popular.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or whatever.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: You'll just look good and feel good.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes there's a lot of truth to that.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: When someone gets a new pair of boots or a new pair of jeans and they're psyched they feel good, right?
33:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's what we and then when we project all this like, are you wanting attention?
33:19
SPEAKER_01: Are you wanting external validation?
33:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's probably some of that too, because that is part of being a human, also.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: And our kids are living in a place where external validation is like on steroids, right?
33:33
SPEAKER_01: With social media.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: And so then the conversation goes to, you know, if we're if we're talking about external validation, like I want to know what matters to you.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: I want to know what you feel good about, and that actually turns the conversation back on themselves because there's so much more power, control, and connection with self that goes the distance and creates self-esteem versus someone else's quick two-minute opinion of you based on what you're wearing.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: And that then that opinion and ultimately means nothing.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: And you never really know that opinion.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's like we're trying to, again, that that's where I think parenting comes in with consciousness of trying to teach our kiddos to like bring it back to their sense of self and also validating how normal it is to want to be desired and be attractive.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm just so aware that what you are saying so beautifully is it's not just a conversation about clothing.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Because I always I also think about the difference between the kid who is wearing revealing clothing because they feel comfortable and confident in and of themselves.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: They feel good about themselves.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: Versus, because we have those, and we also have kids not abnormal who are wearing those clothes because they want attention, because they're feeling a lack of security and confidence within themselves.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's the conversation.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: So now the conversation is no longer about is the dr what you're wearing appropriate or not.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: It's to your point.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: What are what are you?
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Why?
35:19
SPEAKER_00: What help me how do you feel about you?
35:22
SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about you?
35:23
SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about you today?
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And and what makes you unique?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: And what's something you feel like in the world gives you purpose, you know, and those are like these deeper conversations versus like the kid, I mean, like my kids, you know, the girl, their girls are out.
35:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, and they are owning it and they're feeling really good in their bodies, and there's no part of them that's like, I want, I want to have sex based on the fact that I have cleavage showing.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Like there's just such a differentiation, and I think that's where we as parents have to really trust that.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, we can't get away in motherhood without having all of the hard, uncomfortable conversations.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: It's easier to just say, nope, you can't wear that to school.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: And for some people, that might be a line, and that might and I really want to honor that.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: But I would really encourage if you're having hard lines, do some introspection.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: This is a beautiful time to do that because that's actually what our kids are gonna feel from us when we can really identify how we're different from them and what our stories are and where we're willing to grow or change or not.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, and to put myself on the line here, I think that kind of more rigid hard line can go both ways, right?
36:44
SPEAKER_00: So I said 10 minutes ago, I was like, I have a hard line that I'm never gonna tell my girls that they what they can't wear.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: Which is directly related to me growing up in a situation where I felt like I wasn't I the the expectation was that I was not gonna be put myself intentionally in any situation where people would stare at me.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm very aware that the introspection that I get to do around that is well, where's the gray?
37:14
SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't have to be either or.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can let them wear whatever they want or set the tone exactly what they have to wear all the time, right?
37:23
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there is always that shadowy side to these when our impulses are so dramatic and rigid, there's gonna be some internal personal narrative that's right.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: So you're saying when there's a hard line, that's a moment to recognize, hmm, maybe I need to, maybe this is more about me.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe I need to look within.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so beautiful, and I think that's something I'm working with every single day, you know, whether it's around clothing, whether it's around how they're talking to people, how they're working in school.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: It's on so many levels.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Like we it's like they're evolving and becoming who they are, and we have to just continuously do our own introspection around it.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm so aware of how what a trap this is for overcompensating.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: So motherhood so much of the time is, right?
38:15
SPEAKER_00: We we become mothers and we think I am not gonna do it anything like my own parents did it.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Or I'm gonna do it exactly like my own parents did it, right?
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: We do that.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, one thing that I'm appreciating that you're saying is when you have hard lines, it helps you be consistent.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: And I actually think consistency is really important here, but the consistency might even be like I'm aware that we dress differently for different kinds of activities.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: And and well, so I brought it myself into it the other day because my daughter was getting ready to go to a concert, and like, you know, they were dressing for a concert, and I can a hundred percent relate to that.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, even based on the music I will dress sometimes for the concert.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the vibe of the concert?
39:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to feel part of that, and that is so normal.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: It's like, and it's just trying to be part of us of society, of it's this thing of um feeling a sense of belonging, and that some kind sometimes our kids just want to be cozy, cozy, cozy, and sometimes they want to be like really exposed.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: And the last thing we want them to do, and I'm being redundant here, but is to feel judged for that.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, and you're just said you just said one of the most beautiful things if we can help our kids with this when they're young versus when we're in our 40s and 50s, which is that they have many different parts.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so many parts.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: They have the part that wants to be cozy and innocent and childlike and at home.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: And they have the part that wants to be a little rebellious and a little more in the gaze of pub the public gaze or sexy and so own that word.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: I really feel like we dance around the word sexy because, and I'm going backwards, because it implies I want to have sex with you.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: And they are so different.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Right?
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, think about if we're dancing in the kitchen, you and me alone, and we're like getting down, and it's sexy dancing, and we're having so much fun, and we're not trying to have sex with each other.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: No, we're expressing ourselves like that is so beautiful.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, and you think about how many women that are listening to this who are mothers who were at one point or another in their lives criticized for being or looking or acting too sexy.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, because it's sending this message that they invited it in, that they're asking for it, that and then if something goes bad, that it was they provoked it, and that is that is the system that we're trying to crack.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: That I think is what the world is trying to do right now.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: It it can feel extreme and everything's on its head, but I do believe we're gonna get there.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: So like the the systems are gonna change, and this is where it comes back to like really going back to consequences.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: So, can I revisit that conversation?
41:03
SPEAKER_01: When one I think a beautiful question that I said before is rather than saying um that is totally inappropriate to wear that's a totally inappropriate outfit, you might say, Hey, so that outfit might come with some consequences.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Are you aware of what they are?
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful, and you just bring it out, and it might be like, Yeah, it might so I literally just had this conversation and it was at the concert and around going to the concert, and and she said, Yeah, it might be that I get like hit on or looked at, and I was like, Okay, so let's come up with some strategies while you're here with me.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna interrupt myself for a minute because when our kiddos are with us and they have more perspective and they actually can like really strategize and see things more clearly, and then when they go with their friends and they're caught up in the moment, all of that goes away, and they're just gonna get swept up in all the fun and play and risk and everything that comes with adolescence.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: If you can create some strategies before they go out, then they come up with them and you help them and they're somewhere tucked away.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: And it might be like, hey, don't go to the bathroom alone.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Hey, if someone gets too close to you, what's the language you're gonna use that feels like authentic to you?
42:16
SPEAKER_01: And what she came up with is like a little space, please.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: And she can say it with a big old smile, and if even if even if it's someone that she likes and doesn't want to offend, she can just say confidently, little space, please.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep, and that is enough.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: That is her making a boundary of you, you are not allowed to come into my space just because I'm wearing a really short outfit, short shorts or whatever.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yep.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that's that's another really beautiful conversation is how do we prepare for the potential consequences?
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't want to go into this naive and teach them that they can just do whatever they want and no one's gonna hurt them because the times are changing.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: But no, let's be aware.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: Yep, right?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're so much of what you promote in your work, and I think it can start when our kids are really little is teaching our kids to be empowered, right?
43:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes, really helping them to be empowered and have agency, choice, and control in their own life.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: And our clothing is a is a real way that we reflect to the world how we feel inside.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: And we want to make sure our kids know that they can reflect to the world how they feel inside.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what a what a bummer it is to be a human, and there's so many of us out there like this who feel like it's not okay to reflect to the world how we feel inside.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's which has it.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: So glad you said that.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: I I wanted to actually take that in a different direction because that is such an important piece here, Kate.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: That like I was actually talking to some parents of kids that are really goth.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: And they're wearing a lot of darkness.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: And I actually encourage them to ask their kids what they're feeling inside, and the kids are like.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: I want my outsides to match my insides.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's like and actually I heard another friend tell me that their kiddo said that on her own accord.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: Like she wanted to dye her hair and she was like wanting to be extreme, and the mom was a little triggered by it.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And then the kid said, I want my outsides to reflect my insides.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: And wow, that is some wisdom right there.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: And we can be like well, thank you.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for letting me see what's on your inside without being afraid of it.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: You know?
44:30
SPEAKER_01: That it's powerful.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Like we can think sexy is afraid scary.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: We can think dark is scary.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: We can think, you know, I mean, that's those are the two big ones, you know.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and this is not the conversation that we're going into today, but we can think quote unquote too masculine or quote unquote too fabul feminine is too scary is scary for us.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: So it like can be it can be represented in so many different ways.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
44:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: And another place parents we can get curious is what do you like about the clothes?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: And I love that question because it's like they might like the colors, they might like the way it feels, they might like that their bodies are really exposed because they feel beautiful in their bodies.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, they might like that it's soft, they might like that it's trendy, but it's like help them identify it.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: And that's going back to what you were saying of we want them to be empowered.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: We want them to trust their will that's starting to come out.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I have to tell this story, but it's like I can't get it out of my head as we're sitting here talking and it's distracting me.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: But I do this thing on sort of a regular basis.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can do some psychoanalysis on me for a moment.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Darwin.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: I do this thing where I ask my I picture myself walking into the grocery store in a bathing suit.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: And then I go through this whole thing in my head where I'm like, why is it okay for me to walk around a pool or a beach and have random people who I don't know see me in a bathing suit?
46:01
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't feel okay for me to walk into a grocery store and have people see me in a bathing suit.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm not kidding when I say that this thing comes up for me all the time.
46:12
SPEAKER_01: Social norms.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: Social norms, and it's part of it's all the things you talked about, belonging and appropriate attire for the it's all that stuff.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: But it's it is really interesting because what showing a lot of skin for many, many people, if you know, if it doesn't contradict with religion or faith or culture or whatnot, right?
46:31
SPEAKER_00: But for many, many people, showing a lot of skin is not a problem at all at the beach.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, right?
46:39
SPEAKER_00: Which is so like we wouldn't question why, or I wouldn't question why my teenage daughter is wearing a bikini at the beach.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Right, but then if they were to wear it to a concert or a grocery store, right, or like a bikini top to school.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
46:54
SPEAKER_00: It's like so interesting.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: This is the stuff that's kept breaking down.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: And I actually want to acknowledge, and I know we said religion and culture early on, but we're very much talking from an American perspective.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: 100% and like the freedom of wearing whatever the heck you want at any time.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I just want to name that.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, God, that's a great question.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: I almost want to like do it.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm actually remembering there's been many moments this summer where I like jumped in the river and then ran into the grocery store and maybe put a skirt on, but had my bikini tap on.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: And I remember feeling a little funny about it, but then getting over myself.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: Or think about those dreams that people have a lot where suddenly you look down, you're not wearing any clothes.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: Like it's sort of all connected.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like the it's the difference between I mean, this is where it caught gets complicated with adolescence because they're many of them are all dressing alike.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: But it's that moment of I'm not, I mean, for me, I'm going in circles.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: It's like the appropriateness.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it appropriate to walk into a grocery store in a bathing suit?
47:59
SPEAKER_00: And if my answer is like no, well, why?
48:01
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a great, it's a beautiful question to leave with our listeners.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: What does appropriate mean to you?
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: And where do you get those messages?
48:11
SPEAKER_01: And are they still accurate for you today?
48:14
SPEAKER_01: Or are they inherited and and are you ready to examine and maybe change them?
48:20
SPEAKER_01: And it goes back to values, what you mentioned earlier.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: So do we have all the answers?
48:26
SPEAKER_00: How my god, listen to this has been such a muddled, messy conversation.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: But we're gonna leave you in the show notes with those specific questions to ask your kiddos, and then I have some other questions I'll put in the show notes as well around some questions to ask yourself that I'm not gonna go into depth right now, but there's something to look at.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: And you know, please chime in, listeners, because this conversation is heavy and weighted.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: There's no right way, but it has to be personal and it does deserve attention.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: It does, and it will probably come up at some point in your life as a mother.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: And then we laugh, and then we pray, and then we laugh, and then we pray, and then we take a deep breath, and then we wake up tomorrow and do it all over again.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: I like your outfit today, Deb.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: I like yours too.
49:13
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: I was like mixing like hippie and fancy.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: It's a good luck.
49:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks for a great conversation.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: It's been it's a fun one.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a fun one that we can just keep revisiting because it's gonna change as our kids change and as we change.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: That's the other piece.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: We're always evolving around how we present ourselves.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Always.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: All right, cheers to you.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: Love you.
49:36
unknown: Love you too.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, we sure hope you enjoyed that episode.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: And if you did, we would really love for you to share this with a friend.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: So here's the deal: we're all in this together.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: And as a community of moms, we need to make sure that no one is left alone.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: So you can help us with that.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: Please share this episode or other episodes that you found useful for you.
50:05
SPEAKER_00: Please consider writing a review and rating this podcast because when you do, it actually makes it more accessible to other moms who might be looking for podcasts that they would also find useful.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: So we are so grateful you're here.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: And if you were interested in just taking a minute or two to share and rate and review, Deb and I would be so grateful.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for mothering with us.