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The Live Bookstore Interview: You Are Not Alone In This with Sophie Scott · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: There we go, our folks. Welcome back to Live Bookstore interviews.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Super excited to have as make us today.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Sophie Scott, Sophie welcome, Hello guy, thank you so much for.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: Having me on.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: You're welcome all right. So Sophie Scott. She's practicing trans
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: personal psychotherapist and the founder of Balance, where she was
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: also the editor in chief for seven years, bringing mindfulness
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and mental health topics to the mainstream. She's written for Forbes, Wired,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Sheer Lucks, and Thrived Global, as well as speaking at
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: a variety of events and festivals, including Live Well Festival.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about the new book
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: is titled You Are Not Alone in This Supporting a
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: loved ones mental health without losing your own. In this
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  Speaker 1: ground baking book, she draws on moving client stories, proven
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: therapeutic techniques, and her own personal journey to help you
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: navigate the emotional complexities of caring for someone with mental
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: illness while still taking care of yourself. Sophie welcome. Before
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: we could go in here, share with our listeners where
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: you're from originally and where you are currently.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: So I'm originally from London and that's where currently I
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: am too.
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  Speaker 3: I'm a born and bred Londoner.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Awesome, okay, simple, all right, let's dive into it. Why
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: this book, What was the impetus, What was the inspiration?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: So the idea is that mental health issues, like all
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: health issues, they don't just impact the individual. They impact
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: the people around them, you know, the support system, the family,
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  Speaker 2: and there is not much out there, in fact, very
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: few resources out there for the people to find themselves
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: in the supporting role. So if one in four people
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: we know struggle with their mental health, I suspect it's
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: much higher. But if one in four people struggle, then
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: what about those who are in caregiving.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: Roles or their loved ones.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: So that was really the inspiration behind the book because I,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: you know, we felt that there was a gap in
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: the market. And I have had personal experience kind of
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: growing up in a family sort of quietly affected by
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: mental health struggles. I've later gone on to have my
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: own mental health challenges anxiety, burnout, panic disorder. And I'm also, obviously,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: as you said, a psychotherapist, So I work with lots
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: of clients who.
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  Speaker 3: Have actually found.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: To come into therapy because they themselves are so impacted
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: by their relationship with a loved one who may be
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: struggling with their mental health, particularly if that loved one
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  Speaker 2: isn't getting the support or the treatment that they need,
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  Speaker 2: so the individual ends up holding a lot of stress
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: and anxiety themselves. We know, you know, fifty five percent
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  Speaker 2: of those in supporting roles end up experiencing depression themselves
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: and nearly eighty percent with anxiety. So, yeah, this is
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: a book based on personal and clinical experiences.
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  Speaker 1: It's a really interesting topic because I think you said
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: one in four and you said probably higher than that,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: which I would agree. But this is an interesting topic
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: because of the stigma, right, It stigmatized even to talk
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: about one's own mental health issues. Now we're bringing in
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: this caregiver to talk about it. Let me get a
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: little pointed here. What was your own experience? How did
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: that feed into this book?
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Sure?
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  Speaker 2: So it's something I speak about in the introduction. My mother,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: who sadly passed away when I was a teenager, when
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I was fourteen from cancer. She was gorgeous and effervescent
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: and wonderful person, but behind closed doors she was gripped with.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: Obsessive compulsive disorder.
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  Speaker 2: She would kind of manically clean the house from top
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  Speaker 2: to bottom every day and it was really difficult to
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: live with. I suspect that there was something else, you know,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: that it was her way to help regulate herself. So
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: maybe there was a hyperactivity disorder or something else that
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: was going on, but there was very little language for
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: this then. And I grew up my sister, who I'm
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: incredibly close with, who's VICKI who I think you may
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  Speaker 2: know she's listening in on this. I'm not sure, but
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  Speaker 2: after Mum passed away, she experienced a kind of survivor's
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  Speaker 2: guilt because she'd spent a lot of time trying to
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  Speaker 2: get mum help and get her into therapy. My sister's
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  Speaker 2: you know, quite considerably older than me, and she had,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: you know, intrusive thoughts that sort of turned into violent
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  Speaker 2: intrusive thoughts, and really it was all anxiety and feeling
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  Speaker 2: like she failed my mom, and so.
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  Speaker 3: She started to persecute herself. And so.
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  Speaker 2: Because we're so close, she sort of lent on me
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  Speaker 2: quite a lot for reassurance. So you could say that
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  Speaker 2: maybe my sister had savior complex over on my mom,
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  Speaker 2: and I had savior complex over with my sister. Ultimately,
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  Speaker 2: my sister, VICKI got you know, the help and support
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  Speaker 2: that she needed and has done a lot of work
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  Speaker 2: on herself and she's now herself amazing psychotherapist who actually
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  Speaker 2: specializes in working clients with intrusive thoughts. Oh wow, but yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's a little bit of my own background. So sort
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  Speaker 2: of growing up around people maybe who were like fairly obsessional,
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  Speaker 2: and always thinking, well, I'm fine, like what's.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Wrong with all these people? And then later ron.
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  Speaker 2: Experiencing my own obsessional mind, my own anxiety, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: so I've been on both sides at that coin, and
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  Speaker 2: it's something that you know, a key theme in the
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  Speaker 2: book is that mental health is on a spectrum and
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  Speaker 2: actually any number of factors can push you up or
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  Speaker 2: down on that scale. So very much. You know, I've
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  Speaker 2: learned a lot of lessons along the way. It's not
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  Speaker 2: on us versus them. You know, anything can kind of
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  Speaker 2: hurtle you into the abysss. We're all on the precipice.
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  Speaker 1: And actually, definitely when you say us versus them, you
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  Speaker 1: mean like I don't have mental health issues.
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  Speaker 3: They have exactly exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Because the book is aimed at those who are in
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  Speaker 2: a supportive role. You know, you may come to this
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  Speaker 2: book and think yeah, I'm a supportive you know, I'm
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  Speaker 2: a supporting role. There's nothing wrong with me. I have
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: no mental health issues. And what I'm saying is, firstly,
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  Speaker 2: that's not true. You're a human being, like we're all
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  Speaker 2: somewhere on the spectrum, Like all of us have existential
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: anxiety alone just through being born. Right, So to try
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: and understand the depressed part of oneself, the anxious part
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: of oneself, the psychotic part of oneself, and actually that
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: can help to foster so.
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  Speaker 3: Much more empathy, I think, for your loved one, but.
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  Speaker 2: Also to look at your own role rather than just
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  Speaker 2: pointing fingers and thinking that the problem always lies outside
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: of yourself and with the other person. You know, there
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: are dynamics that can be set up in all relationships,
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  Speaker 2: you know, especially maybe if one of you is struggling
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  Speaker 2: with your mental health things like codependency and stuff. And
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: in the book, I say it takes two to tangle,
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  Speaker 2: so you know, look at let's let's all look at
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  Speaker 2: our own stuff before we just think, oh, I'm this
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  Speaker 2: marter who's just in a total supporting world for everybody else,
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  Speaker 2: even though you know there may be an element of
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  Speaker 2: truth to that. I think it's really important that we
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: lessen the divide and we realize that we're all we're
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: all one, and we're all connected.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: So let me remind everyone I'm speaking with Sophie Scott.
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  Speaker 1: Her book is You are Not Alone in This is
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: the book out?
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: Uh. I have a copy here, but the book is
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: not The book.
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  Speaker 2: Is available for pre order and it's officially out on
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: the fourteenth of January.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll have links to pre order. So when
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you sat down for this to write this book, you
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: mentioned you know it's not us first, then what are
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: some other things that you wanted to communicate.
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  Speaker 3: There's a lot you know in the book.
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  Speaker 1: And before you answer that, who are you talking to
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  Speaker 1: when you wrote this book?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think that I was certainly speaking to my
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: younger self who could have benefited from reading this book.
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  Speaker 2: But actually the book is essentially in two separate parts.
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  Speaker 2: So the first part is about caring for your loved one,
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  Speaker 2: and I'd say it's perhaps a more practical guide the
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  Speaker 2: first half. So it includes things like you know how
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: to have difficult conversations if your loved one is refusing
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: to see that there's an issue or refusing to get help.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: It looks. We look at.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Different diagnoses and how you may tailor your communication based
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: on those. But I do, you know, really want to
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  Speaker 2: make the point that I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm a psychotherapist.
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  Speaker 2: It's not my business to diagnose anybody, but that there
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  Speaker 2: are certain things that can be helpful to be aware of.
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  Speaker 2: I talk about a holistic care plan and being aware
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  Speaker 2: of that. You know, psychiatry is just one should be
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  Speaker 2: one aspect, one component of a treatment plan, and that's
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  Speaker 2: something I'm really passionate about. I practice you know, integrative
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: type of psychotherapy. So the idea of like why should
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: two people with depression be treated in exactly the same way, Well,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: what are the other factors that need to be taken
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  Speaker 2: into account, you know, health factors, lifestyle, someone has a
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: sense of purpose in their life or not, things like
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: that can make a massive difference. And indeed, looking at
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: crisis planning and want to do in an emergency. So
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  Speaker 2: that's the first half of the book, and then the
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  Speaker 2: second half of the book is about caring for yourself.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that probably that's the.
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  Speaker 2: Unique angle that this book takes, which is okay, it's
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: it's really important, you know, to be armed and to
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: learn tools so that you can be the best support
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  Speaker 2: that you can be for your loved one. But actually
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  Speaker 2: you can't support anyone from a from an empty cup.
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  Speaker 2: As they say, Let's think about yourself, you know, how
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  Speaker 2: are you managed, how are you managing your stress levels?
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  Speaker 3: Talk about burnout.
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  Speaker 2: And looking out for those warning signals and understanding if
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: you may yourself be in fight or flight hyper arousal,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: or if you might have gone into hyper arousal where
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: you sort of like a bit frozen. So we look
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: at that kind of the animal kingdom and how they
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  Speaker 2: deal with stress and the sense all sort of collectiveness.
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  Speaker 2: And then and then the final part is about caring
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  Speaker 2: for the relationship. And I give an analogy that like
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  Speaker 2: relationships are a bit like biospheres in that everything that's
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and I'm not a biologist, by the way, I've flung
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: but obolutely at school, but it's always struck me as
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: a really interesting analogy, this sense that every living organism
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  Speaker 2: is interconnected, so I'm relying on a certain amount of
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: let's say oxygen, and then that paves the way for
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: you to be able to thrive. So therefore, if something's
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: not working for one person, in the relationship, then it
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: isn't working for the relationship. And so, you know, I
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: think that when we start to look at things in
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: that sense, you can start to take your own experience
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: much more seriously and your own self care much more seriously.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: And that's the point of this book really. So whilst
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: it's fantastic if you can be the best support supporter
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: for your loved one that you can be, you have
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: to first be able to do that for yourself and
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: to maybe step up out of the sense that you know,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I'm the one that's there to fix anybody else. Well,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: what is it maybe in yourself first that you need
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: to think about fixing or looking at.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Intense? I mean not well, it's it is intense because
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: it's not you're inviting the reader to really do this
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: self reflection and this awareness. I mean you talked about,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: you know, not you know, judging others and not it's
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: not us versus them. How let's go back to the
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: first part where you talked about, you know, broaching the
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: topic of maybe there's something going on here with your
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: loved one. How the heck do you do that? I mean,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: that's that's not obviously not easy. How does one go
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: about talking raising that topic with someone.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: It's so hard, and I think firstly just to acknowledge
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: what a difficult predicament that is to be in. When
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: you know somebody that you love so much isn't seeing
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: things in the way that you are, You're not able
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: to get through to them. It's really difficult and there
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: are no clear cut answers. But something that I speak
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: about in the book is a sense of letting go
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: of being right and instead being curious. You know, so
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: like curiosity builds bridges. So rather than telling somebody something,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: being curious.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: You know why, understanding what why might.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: They be reluctant to get help? Why might they be
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: reluctant to see that there's an issue? Because the truth
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: of the matter is there, there's probably very good reasons
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: for why people you know, want to avoid a diagnosis
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: or you know, seeing a psychiatrist, right because people have
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: really bad experiences and there's still unfortunately so much stingma.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Attached to these people.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: And so to have curiosity and listen, you know, really
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: to be able to actively listen to somebody else, you know,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: it's so powerful. I mean, we know that it can
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: almost change someone on a cellular level, and it's.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Such a powerful tool.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: So yeah, things like that, really asking open ended questions,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: being curious, not telling anybody anything.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Let me just.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Interject with I mean, I love that. You know. As
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: soon as you said started to talk about that, I
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: literally felt something like shifting my body. And I don't
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: often say say this, but it's so easy, right for
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: many of us to say, what are you doing?
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: There's obviously you know, there's obviously something wrong. Why are
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: you getting held It's so easy for a lot of
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: us at all of us, but for many of us
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: to go there literally and you're asking.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Us to slow down, you know, be curious. That's a
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: that's a one.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: Eighty it is.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: And I say this with humility, like I struggle as
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: much as the next person with this, you know, and
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: it's a lesson that I continue to go on and
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: certainly have been on, you know, not just in my
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: personal life, but also professionally.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I remember when I first wanted to do training to
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: become a psychotherapist and I was asked why, and I said, oh,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: because I really feel I can help people. And I
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: remember my amazing tutor at the time she said to me,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: that's not a good reason, what do you mean? And
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: it took me like a long time to understand what
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: she was talking about. But actually now I get it.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: When you are you know, what are you doing like
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: trying to fix someone or thinking that you know what's
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: best for them, you don't, you know? And actually I've
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: had to I've had to really watch that in my
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: own in my own therapy, I mean as a therapist,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: you know. I think very early on when I was training,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: it was almost like sometimes you know, like barking motivational
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: orders at somebody, you know, and it's actually detrimental to the.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Work because the work, the change always has to come.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: From within.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: And so being able together as they say, detached with love.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's a life works lesson, but
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: a really important one that I've learned as a therapist,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: as I say, as well as personally in my very
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: close relationship, let's say, of the book to respect everybody's autonomy.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Having said that, what would you say, is kind of
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: realized there are no absolutees here, But what what is
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: the role of the caregiver?
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think it's a hard I think
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: it depends on the situation in hand. I mean my
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: view is too. You know, in the book, I talk
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: about the five factors that will enable you to offer
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: the best support you can to your loved one without
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: losing yourself. And the first one is about trying your best,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: your very best, to see that they have a personalized
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: and a robust treatment plan in place. But you know,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: if that is not possible, then it may be that
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: actually it's about keeping them safe and thinking about for example,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: with addiction. You know, obviously, and this is a deeply
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: personal thing that only the individual can answer, but you
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: do your best, you keep doing your best. But obviously
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: there may come a time where, for example, somebody will
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: not stop using. But the most compassionate and the most
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: caring thing you can do is to make sure that
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: if they are going to use, they use in the safest.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: Way possible, for example.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: So you know that's at the very extreme end, right,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: So I think it's about being an advocate for your
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: loved one, being you know, keeping their confidence if they
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: talk to you about things, but also recognizing So that
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: was the first one, but the actually the other four
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: factors in the book that I speak about are really
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: about you looking after yourself so that you are resilient
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: and strong enough to to be that support so that
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: you then take on their trauma and then everything is important.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: Actually you can't really support them. So the other ones
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: are you.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Know, learning to process your own messy feelings, because you
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: will have messy feelings, you know, ambivalent feelings towards your
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: loved one.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: I mean we all do.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Anyway, so you know, to be able to process and
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: accept those, to actively seek support for yourself.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: We know that loneliness.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Absolutely increases the chance of caregive a burnout and then
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: finding a purpose that is uniquely your own, so that
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: means something that is separate from your role, as you know,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: from your supportive role. I think that those things enable
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: you to provide much better support. And that's what you
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: know sort of My research and research just in general
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: about care give a burnout really backs up that practicing
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: self care, you know, is not selfish. It will enable
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: you to actually provide much much better support for your
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: loved one and it mitigates the likelihood that you will
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: burn out in the process.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: What I love first off, again we're speaking with Sophie Scott.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: The book is you are not alone in this. What
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I love about what you're saying, is it seems like
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: you've really taken a holistic approach to this, and it
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: feels like you're holding not just space, but you're holding
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: the caregiver and the other person in your arms with compassion.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: You know, I can feel It's. Yeah, it's it's very moving.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: As you kind of wind down here, Sophie, I want
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: to ask you, and this is I think obviously a
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: tough question, but you know, looking back with your own
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: experience with your mom, I'm sure you like I wish
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I had done this, I wish I had done that.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: What can you talk a little bit about that? Is
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: there anything can you share something maybe you wish you
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: could have done.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was fourteen when my mom passed away,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: So actually I think I've got to a place where
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I'm at piece that there's nothing else I could have
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: done because I was a minor, but actually because at
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: any age there are limits, right, Yeah, of course, And
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I am a framework that I really like that resonates
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: with me that I mentioned in the book is of
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: my work, your work, and God's work. And I don't
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: think you know, I'm not a religious person. I don't
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: think you have to be religious to believe in that,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: but God's work, you know, whatever your belief is, you know,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: if it's the kind of like force majaw moments or
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: you know, COVID or you.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: Know, things that are like outside of anyone's control.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: I think it is really important to be able to
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: and it's not easy, but to be able to stay
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: in your wheelhouse of like, well, what is my work
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: and then what.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: Is their work?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: And to be able to somewhat relinquish with love any
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: control that you may have over their work, and then
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: also to you know, to trust in God's work, you know,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: which isn't always easy, but I think that that's the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: thing that's given me peace.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: All said Sophie, want to thank you so much for
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: being here. Love to have you back, bring you back
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: on the podcast. Super inspiring. Thank you so much. We'll
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: be in touch.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: Joyed our chat. Thank you guys. Time after Tim
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Common