Latest / Conversations with Dad / Part 1: Defining the Work
Transcript
- Stanley Brownstein: There we go. That should be better. Is it in your eyes or anything? Mbrownstein3485: Hey, Dad. ⁓ No, it's good. Stanley Brownstein: Okay. Alright. Mbrownstein3485: We're, we're, while all the fans that are listening at home or as they're walking, they can only hear, but dad and I are looking at each other. I'm, and I'm looking at dad while he's sitting in front of the windows of, of, of his office. And actually the light's really nice. It's kind of like brightening everything up. It's not really shining into my eyes. So it's okay. How are you doing? so. Stanley Brownstein: Good, thank you. Mbrownstein3485: We left off last week ⁓ beginning to talk about something you've referred to as the work, I've referred to as the work. ⁓ And it was introduced in last week's conversation in the context of a space where you began to understand that you had some agency, that you could make some decisions that would determine the path of your life versus your life just happening to you. ⁓ Does that one liner kind of at least help us to make a connection between kind of how the work was introduced last time just as like ⁓ a connection and as a framing? Stanley Brownstein: I don't recall how it was introduced last time, but that I think that's a good framing. So it wouldn't surprise me. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Okay. Okay. ⁓ yeah, cause the bulk of our conversations have been about the, the way in which you navigated both the, the people in your life in terms of who inspired you, who demonstrated lessons who gave you non-examples of the choice and the question of your career and what you would be investing your time in. And so at a couple of different points, the work with Fernando, whether it's in Queens College, beginning at Queens College, but then in other spaces, like his name, and then the phrase the work has come up. ⁓ Today we're going to talk more about what that's about and what you mean by the work. And I know last time you asked me to start by maybe me saying a little bit about. when that phrase, the word comes up, like what it means to me, ⁓ should I do that now or is there something else you'd wanna say or a question you would wanna ask me? Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ No, I'll let, I'll, I feel that you can contribute and direct this as you happen. So I'll leave it up to you. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. So when I think of the work, I associate the work with you and the lessons in the literature from Gurjeev, who he was a thinker, a philosopher, a spiritual leader from the late 1800s, early 1900s. And he started some groups where people were engaging in self-reflection, self-realization. These groups created other groups and you were introduced to a group, this group, a local one by someone and maybe we'll hear more about it. Um, as a kid, I was introduced to it. I know we were starting to talk a little bit about last time. I feel like there was a book that you had shared with me and this was before like Tales of a Beasel, a Beasel Bub, which I know is like a, the, one of the titles of like the larger. Stanley Brownstein: . Thank you. Mbrownstein3485: introduction to Gurgis teachings and his origins of his thinking. But there was some book that you shared with me as a kid, because I remember from an early age, that you were someone who was curious and we're really trying to figure out what this world is about. And I remember from an early age, like you broaching this, the subject and topic with me in ways that felt developmentally appropriate. I don't remember ever thinking like, why is he talking to me about this? Stanley Brownstein: Okay. . Mbrownstein3485: I do remember feeling special and smart when you brought up topics. I mean, I also remember you bringing up a book and I just don't remember the title of the book. And my other relationship with it as a kid was just knowing that you, you doing Tai Chi every morning had something to do with this. And then I also remember as a kid, two other things, one, at least once a week, you would join what kind of, to me seemed like a book club that you'd be talking about. Stanley Brownstein: Okay. ⁓ Mbrownstein3485: and connecting and sharing and reflecting with one another. And that I know you also kept a journal, which is something that you've referenced when I was older, because when I was older, I feel like you were doing a little bit more of like, this is what I've done and not necessarily telling me to do it. But I know that at one point there was a suggestion to consider reflecting on my own day. using a framework that I know is from Gurjeev or at least from your group of teaching, thinking about my better to better understand my own drivers, my own intentions, my own motivations. So that's my relationship to it as a kid. I guess I wonder maybe we can start by, if you could say a little bit about your, even before Stanley Brownstein: Okay. Mbrownstein3485: Actually, know what? Let's start by, I guess I'm curious about two things. Like one, if you can say, in your own way, what the work to you is and you could share it from the perspective of hindsight, but also if you wanted to zoom in into your 20s and 30s, what the work was like then. I'm also curious about just what the work was like Stanley Brownstein: . . Mbrownstein3485: from your role as a parent and how that either influenced how you, any decisions you made as a parent, ⁓ but also anything that you recall in terms of sharing with me and interacting with me about the work with me. So, this first question is, instead of us just saying the work, the work, what's the work? Stanley Brownstein: So I don't think the work is, I think at different points in my life, I think I would define the work in different ways. So I definitely define it differently now than I have in the past, but in terms of what I felt it was. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: So when I was younger and I started having a more official relationship with that group that I was learning from about the work, I think it was very... whatever I was being exposed to at that time from them to me was the work. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: Now, the organization was kind of Grigyov-centric, but it wasn't just Grigyov. Grigyov was a convenient... Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: I shouldn't say it was convenient, but they did feel that was a good way to espouse many of the ideas that many spiritual practices share. The difference with Gurjef was that, first of all, what he espoused, but also what his students are spoused in his name, you know, consistent with his teachings. And what was unique was that they were Western. You know, it wasn't Buddhist, it wasn't Hindu, it wasn't Christian. The ideas overlap, but it was a way that in certain ways you could say is modern. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: Because he came out way before all of these self-help groups. could say, know, Stoicism was around, but it wasn't as popularized as it is now. So there were many, I mean, they could have chosen other means to portray it, but they chose Gurjev. And as you mentioned, In addition to Girgireff though, and Girgireff encompasses, it encompassed emotional and physical work also, not just the intellectual work. So the physical work was Tai Chi, yoga. Some people took ⁓ karate. There was something called conscious labor where you do, you might be doing mundane tasks, but you're trying to be conscious doing it, which is very Zen like. Additionally, we took classes in concentration class. had tea groups where we might be in like therapy. Tea groups were like therapy groups at the time. That was a big thing in the 70s. We had one therapy group where we were, there were a group maybe of 10 of us and we stayed up all night where Fernando happened, he was someone who was up in the organization and he happens to be a clinical psychologist and he was kind of bringing out things that were ⁓ designed to open us up and stimulate good interpersonal relations with people in a group, reveal things, that type of ⁓ interaction. We had done it in more one hour sessions, but in this case it was like throughout the night. ⁓ So, you know, there was intellectual, emotional and physical training. Plus there was, we studied Taoism, we studied ⁓ aspects of Christianity, Judaism, then there were... ⁓ I even studied actually, there were music studies. There was an individual there who was a bhakti yoga and his specialty was music. So they went through a phase where they got into that. So it was just a very well-rounded ⁓ exposure to... many things that gave us an opportunity to consciously do with that aim. Now, what was unique in terms of Grzegorz, in terms of the explanation, when I say unique, I can't say that it was other religions or other practices don't do it, but in terms of my alignment with Grzegorz, I attributed to him, it was called the fourth way. And the fourth way ⁓ identified that there were four ways. The first way was like the type of yogi where they would just expose themselves to physical pain. They would just sit on a mountain top doing nothing for decades, they would do like, stand on one leg and just... withstand that physical pain and through that single mindedness intent they felt that they could discover God. And obviously that's a very limited way of doing things. The second way was ⁓ the way of love, you know, where you become a monk. ⁓ You you go into a monastery and you just, you focus on the love of God, the love of humanity, but it's in a very controlled setting. The third way was Raja Yoga where you just meditate. You sit and you meditate single-focussedly and that way you connect with God. And the fourth way was you try to develop what is necessary to connect with God within life. So the school was kind of fourth way in that... ⁓ We weren't in a cave, we weren't in a monastery, people worked, we dealt with the public, it was a school. So that was very, ⁓ very Grigiefian in being a fourth way school. So that is ⁓ the definition of the work in kind of a strict way and how I particularly thought about it at that time. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, right, yeah. And just concretely, where was this school? And how many hours a week were you there in your 20s and 30s? Stanley Brownstein: So not in my 30s. So I was there, we were there. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: We might have, let's see, just give me one second. So when I was there for a couple of years before I was married and then for two years after we were married. ⁓ when I say there, for when I was going to college and before mom and I were married, we were going there like just about every night. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: which was pretty heavy duty because I was taking like 18 credits. I was working 15 hours a week and then we'd go there. And mom was doing ⁓ PT, so she was doing residency, internship, and we got married and so we were there a lot and on weekends. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: Then when we got married, we lived in Bayside for a year. So we were still doing it. And then we lived in Glen Cove, where we were pretty much part of the organization. We were living with a group of people, and that's all they were doing. That's what we were doing was working with that group. So we were there a good four years, pretty heavily involved. Mbrownstein3485: you So you shared a home, you shared a home in Glen Cove with folks who were, ⁓ okay. Stanley Brownstein: Yes. We were like a subgroup. Now, there's so first, as I told you, you know, I started taking classes in in Queens College. Then they they had a home for all of their people, the main group. Which I don't remember offhand, but let's say it was like 10 couples, plus, you know, it was like a big mansion in in Mutton Town. So they opened this school in Manhattan. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: And Wendy and I were like the first outside students. So it was pretty wild. ⁓ So a lot of the classes, so that place grew where from the one class we were doing and it became like a full fledged school, which ⁓ had people from all walks of life, all interests taking classes there. ⁓ I actually even we were trained in amatherapy. I was actually doing massage on people. I wasn't a licensed massage therapist, but they had a health center there. was, you know, they had an acupuncturist, they were a medical doctor there, they had massage therapists there. It was a pretty wild place. That's kind of what attracted me. It was just like, so in terms of how, ⁓ you know, how we judge les- On one hand, you could say they were kind of flaky and cultish, but on the other hand, they had all these people who were very legitimate, open to the public. What's funny is, well, this is an aside, but Grandma wanted to have us go to a deprogrammer. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Grandma Shirley or Adrian? Stanley Brownstein: So that was an interesting thing. So we were... We were in it for quite a while, quite involved. But again, I was still working for ports and terminals even while I was living in the house in Glen Cove. Wendy was, mom was doing ⁓ her PT. So we were very involved, but also still in life. Mbrownstein3485: So when you went from, were there moments or something in particular that kind of spurred the move from Glen Cove to where you lived next? Stanley Brownstein: You froze. Mbrownstein3485: Hey. Stanley Brownstein: All I do is, I don't know what to do but to exit out and start again. Mbrownstein3485: Makes sense. So my question for you was just, I think you, I remember you sharing that you had lived in Glencow. I didn't know it was associated with this group. ⁓ Yeah, I'm just wondering, like, how did that time end? Was there a, what drove you to leave at least that home? Stanley Brownstein: I guess I just felt like it wasn't productive for me anymore. So I said goodbye. Mbrownstein3485: Perfect. What was that like? Stanley Brownstein: I mean, I kind of felt, I felt pretty, I just felt, guess I felt, on one hand I felt, did feel like I had, you know, been released from something that was getting old, so to speak. And, but I also felt, ⁓ I definitely was sensitive to the diminishment in the specialist that it provided. But that's also when I committed to ⁓ going to chiropractic college. So I had a bit of a renewed passion to do something. So that was good too. Which I, in a way, I also Mbrownstein3485: Mm. Gotcha. ⁓ Stanley Brownstein: feel thankful for what I got from my involvement that I ⁓ feel that my going into chiropractic was based on. Mbrownstein3485: So you moved from Glen Cove and shortly thereafter it was doing the prereqs in New York before moving to Iowa. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah. So, ⁓ yeah, we moved to, had, we got an apartment in Yonkers and I guess after about, yeah. So after about the prereqs for a year in the summer. I was probably in Yonkers for a year and then I decided to, ⁓ apply, know, and do the prereqs. Mbrownstein3485: So then I guess the work took on a different, I guess a different phase at this point. So what can you tell us about phase two? Stanley Brownstein: Yes. Well, I think that would be things that you internalize from experience and from value. ⁓ So I don't... Mbrownstein3485: Right, right. Stanley Brownstein: It's hard to remember like formal practice that I was doing after I left. I mean, I continued to do yoga, Tai Chi. I don't recall continuing with the taking the journal, the log, doing that. But I also, you know, I feel that. you know, my butt off towards something was part of it. Mbrownstein3485: Right, like thinking about your language around the fourth way, it was like this next chapter kind of required a lot of your body, mind, and spirit. Stanley Brownstein: Yes. Mbrownstein3485: Um, yeah, I guess it's, it's, it's interesting because I think my initial reflection about the work sounded like it, was a, a reflection of just a different phase for you. The one that was probably closer to when I, you know, I was around and you know, it was your relate or my perception of your relationship to the work, um, which was at least 20 years. 20 years later than the time that you're talking about now. Stanley Brownstein: So what happened was there's another chapter. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: if you want to address what you're saying now. So when I was about 40, Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: I felt, know, 40 seemed like, know, 40, you know, they talk about, um... you know, men or people getting into like ⁓ a crisis, you know, when they as they get older. So when I reach, yeah, that kind of thing. So when I reached 40, I kind of felt that everything that I aim for in a way I was getting. So in the work, they talk about different stages. They talk about householders, right? So I have, and it's not just the work, but Mbrownstein3485: classic midlife crisis, yeah. Stanley Brownstein: I learned this through the, you know, it's more of a Hindu kind of thing. So they're about a householder. A householder is someone who is taking care of business. Almost like a, you know, Bunker from All in a Family. So like he was, you know, a bit of a redneck jerk, but he loved his wife, he loved his daughter, he created, put a roof over their head, and he did his job. That's kind of a householder. then it's a good householder. They do that, but they also start realizing there's something else. And I kind of felt like, all right, so what's the, like, felt like, you know, as a, you know, the kid, we were in this house, you know, the house we have, I was doing well with my business, you know, I, you know, was doing well with the marriage. So like, what else? So what happened was, ⁓ when I left the work, The first time, ⁓ Fernando said, you maybe you'll see, us a call in 10 years. So it was more than 10 years, but I felt like I can give a call. So I called up Fernando and I just kind of touched base with him. And I found out that there was a little group meeting and the group was one, two, three, like just five people. They would meet like once a week. Mbrownstein3485: Sure. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: So he asked, he did this thing like, have you been observing yourself? There's a big thing of self observation, which is kind of like mindfulness on certain levels. So I had been doing reading, who can honestly say they self-observe? Like you could say try self-observe. So he suggested. I don't know if he suggested or I decided to do it. there's this book I'm in search of the miraculous. So I had read it. it's, so Spensky's work of Grzegorz. So I had read it and I probably studied it. So he said, know, so I read it again. And then I started going to the meetings. And in fact, mom didn't attend for maybe six months. Mbrownstein3485: you Yeah, P.D. Ospensky. Okay. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: She wasn't into it, but I just felt, actually I felt she would eventually come around, but I didn't push it at all. And so that was the next chapter. And I must've been involved. So when I was 40, we're talking 30 years ago, so you were like 10, 12, whatever you were, right? So that's when I started again. And that might've been when I, a little... Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, yeah. Stanley Brownstein: Bit after that is when I might have, you know, it could have been a few years after that that I introduced. that a book to you, but I must've been, I could have been there for, you know, a decade or 12 years. I'd be going to those meetings regularly. I was taking Tai Chi twice a week. First I was taking, I took, I found a Tai Chi class in Lodgemont and then when I, and I was going once a week to that, but then when I found the place in Roslyn, which is where we were meeting, I gave up the one in Lodgemont and I was going twice a week to Roslyn for instruction. So that became a busy time, but I was motivated. It was meaningful to me. And I was even doing that while I was going to acupuncture school. So that was a busy time, but again, it was meaningful. And then after a period of time, also felt like I wasn't really, it was getting old in a way. I wasn't... Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. short. Stanley Brownstein: It was an interesting, yeah, so I left that. In a way, the group wasn't there anymore. Fernando kind of broke it up and I wasn't ready to break it up, so I met with him more individually with mom. But even after that, I felt that I wasn't really taking advantage of it and I decided to, I almost felt like if I had a negative ⁓ relationship to the experience. I prefer to leave it before it became a ⁓ negative reference for me. I mean, you could say that I could have encompassed that, but I didn't, you know, so I left. I said, no mas. Wendy's mom stayed there a little bit after that, but she eventually... Mbrownstein3485: ⁓ Well, think next time, think it'd be before the nomas, I think it'd be neat to explore a little bit about what that second phase was like for you, and specifically in the context of parenting. I think that'd be really interesting. ⁓ Stanley Brownstein: Love, too. Yeah. Mbrownstein3485: Cool, so until next time then. Thanks dad, love you. Stanley Brownstein: Very good. All right, good speaking to you. Sure thing. Love you too.