Latest / New Teacher Talk / Ep 230: Post Observation Conversations

Transcript

Ep 230: Post Observation Conversations · New Teacher Talk

Hey everyone.
Welcome back to New Teacher Talk.
I'm Anna Quinzio Zafran.
And I'm Beth Wilkins.
So happy to be back with you all.
If you've ever left a post-observation conversation feeling
more confused than supported,
today's episode is going to feel like a warm hug.
We're joined by not one, but two guests today,
Amy and Ed Howerton,
who bring years of experience helping teachers turn
observation feedback into real growth.
Amy, Ed, welcome to the show.
We have been looking forward to this one.
We cannot wait to hear what you have to share.
Welcome to New Teacher Talk.
My name is Amy Howerton,
and I'm an English teacher and English department
chairperson at Oswego High School in Oswego, Illinois.
And I'm Ed Howerton.
I'm an associate professor and the director of graduate
education at Aurora University.
Together, Amy and I own Two Paths Educational Consulting.
Today,
we will be doing a deep dive into the post-evaluation
conversation.
After today's podcast,
you should walk away with ideas to help you be an effective
participant in the post-observation conversation,
so it is focused on your growth as a professional
educator.
I also want to note that there is a previous New Teacher
Talk podcast about formal evaluation.
This is episode 110.
It's called Formal Evaluation as an Early Career Teacher.
It's from November 18th, 2024.
That's an entire evaluation process podcast,
but today is a deep dive into that post-evaluation
conversation,
as it is a critical point for growth for you as a new
teacher.
So Ed, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Absolutely.
So can you tell us more about that post-observation
conference and why it is so very important?
It's very important because you are establishing yourself
in that meeting as a serious educator who wants to grow,
and that discussion with the person who has just watched
you teach is important both in processing the feedback that
they have and putting that into action as you move forward
as a professional.
So w- what that observer is doing is they're collecting
data during the classroom session on what they saw and
heard during the class.
And what they should have done for the formal
post-observation meeting is to take that data and process
it as evidence within the components from the Charlotte
Danielson Framework Domains 2 and 3,
so that they can thoroughly, uh,
discuss with you both your strengths and areas for
improvement within those different areas.
So what you should be having a conversation about is your
performance as it relates to those specific components,
and it should be supported by the data that was collected
during that observation session.
So, uh, just for our listeners, a little context,
you and I both have been evaluators of teacher performance
for quite a long time.
Uh-huh.
Several decades, actually.
Yes.
So we've done this process with many teachers over the
course of many years,
and it's really helpful for our listeners to know that this
process has changed over time.
But in many cases, in many school districts,
either in the state in which we're in, Illinois,
but in other states around the United States,
this framework is pretty common.
And so when you talk about the Charlotte Danielson
Framework and the Domains 2 and 3, those are pretty common,
I think, in teacher evaluation.
But if those are not common in the state in which you're in
or in the school district you're in,
they're still a really good guide for teachers to use in,
in, in their professional practice.
But that is probably the most common evaluation framework
that, that is out there.
Right.
In our state, it is the state default tool that's used,
and d- school districts, uh,
will sometimes personalize it based on various initiatives
or focus points that they have in terms of what they want
to see with their teachers.
Yeah.
But I think in any state, whatever tool is being used,
that should be an objective components that can measure how
a teacher is doing in a classroom in various areas.
So in, in the Charlotte Danielson Framework, for instance,
there's four domains that focus on the actual practice are
Domains 2 and 3, and there's 10 components in there.
Now,
if you look at it in another state where perhaps another
framework is used, you should see something similar,
I think-
Mm-hmm
...
in terms of, you know,
the expectations for the practice of, of teaching.
Yeah.
One of the things that this podcast will,
will definitely talk about,
and we're certainly doing that deep dive into that
post-observation conference,
the importance is that it is a conversation focused on
growth, right?
Absolutely.
So even though it's an observation and, and, you know,
people use that word evaluation,
which sometimes there's a lot of emotion around that,
particularly for new teachers that are new to the process,
for sure, really, really want to do well.
And the post-observation conference is a way to have
continue that conversation about growth in the profession.
After that evaluation has happened,
before going into that conference and going then to that
meeting with the primary evaluator,
what would you want that person to know,
that teacher to know?
Well, first of all,
just going back to a comment that you made is that both the
observer, the evaluator,
and the teacher have the same thing at stake,
the same interest.
It's a common interest.
Mm-hmm.
They want to improve the practice of teaching-
Yes
...
for teaching's sake, for student performance sake.
So student achievement is the ultimate goal.
We want s- our students to grow and thrive,
and that's only possible when we're at the top of our game.
And so first and foremost, going into the evaluation cycle,
going into a formal evaluation post-observation conference,
they should see that common denominator.
We're just here to make things better for our students,
all things,
and teacher performance in the classroom is certainly of
the utmost importance in a school.
Let me go take a step back.
That evaluator has gone through, in,
in the state of Illinois-
Mm-hmm
...
and, and I'm sure in other states,
some kind of training where they learn how to collect data,
code that data,
and then put it into perspective for the components in
Domains 2 and 3,
where it becomes evidence to support a performance
evaluative rating.
And this is really part of what you do in your role as the
director of graduate education and associate professor.
You help train those leaders,
those educators who are going to be the principals,
who are going to be evaluators.
That's part of something that you support them in.
Correct.
It occurs three times within the internship.
We have a,
a seminar where they practice gathering the data,
coding it,
and then identifying performance evaluative ratings based
on the framework and indicators within the framework.
Then they have to conduct a live formal evaluation cycle
with a teacher in their school as part of the internship.
And finally, they have to,
in order to get the principal endorsement in the state of
Illinois, pass an evaluation,
a two-day evaluation training that's in Administrator
Academy.
The evaluator,
the observer is preparing by going through training.
The teacher should also be very aware of what is in the
Charlotte Danielson Framework or whatever framework is
being used-
Mm-hmm
...
to evaluate them.
What do the rubrics say?
What is a distinguished rating?
What is it comprised of?
What are the indicators?
So that they can start to think about their own
performance, evaluate themselves in terms of reflection,
metacognition.
You know, how, well, how do I do,
why do I do what I do in the classroom,
and what are the results?
There is no substitute for knowing how you're being
evaluated.
Knowing that criteria,
much like we want our students to know the criteria upon
which they're being evaluated, like a rubric,
this is like that teacher rubric.
We want to know that criteria.
Exactly.
And in a classroom, when an observer is, you know,
taking notes and collecting data,
what they're looking for typically is some kind of stimulus
response, right?
Mm-hmm.
So oftentimes, a teacher will say, make a request,
you know, take out your materials,
ask a question about a reading or a problem,
and then students will respond in different ways.
You're not looking necessarily for your side of that,
although that's part of the equation.
What you really wanna see is how do the students respond?
And ultimately,
what we hope our teachers are doing is to get students to
own that classroom session-
Mm-hmm
...
the discussions,
the independent and guided practices so that the teacher is
m- becomes more of a facilitator of that knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
They put something, an idea before the students.
The students work that idea.
Teacher helps guide them through a framework or that fits
so that they have a better understanding of what they've
learned and where they're going with that learning.
And that's really on the, the Danielson Framework, um,
the top tier or the highest-
Right
...
kind of rating in the Danielson Framework,
that exemplary rating is where students are taking
ownership of that learning.
And someone explained it to me one time that that's a place
you visit, you know?
That's really the ultimate goal, and that's,
that's what you strive for every day.
Even if it's not going to happen every day, every lesson-
Right
...
every part of the unit, that's what we're,
we're striving for.
But that is a challenge on a daily basis.
It i- is something that we work toward, right?
Right.
But once we establish what those things are that are
engaging for students-
Mm-hmm
...
that,
that help motivate them to create ownership in what they're
doing in the classroom, once we're there,
it's like riding a bike.
Yep.
We can get there again.
Yeah,
life sometimes gets in the way of us being our best educator,
right?
Different things happen on a daily basis,
and we might not always be performing at a distinguished
level.
But once we're there,
we can look scientifically at those types of, of practices,
those instructional strategies and engagement strategies,
and we can get back there.
Yes.
It's just a matter of knowing where we're going.
It's a roadmap,
and a framework like the Charlotte Danielson Framework or
any rubric that's used to evaluate performance,
teacher performance, is going to light the way.
That's what we're striving for.
We're gonna put this back in context of the,
the teachers in the post-observation conference.
They're ready.
They understand that framework.
Um, they have the knowledge of the,
the language and the rubric.
So what should that teacher's role be?
What should they be prepared to do when they walk into that
post-observation?
What should that look like and maybe sound like?
Well, first and foremost is to be professional.
This is not a monologue.
It's not the observer just giving the teacher feedback,
and-
Or it shouldn't be.
It shouldn't be.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's a discussion.
And so as part of that discussion, they should listen.
They should listen to the feedback,
and they should ask questions about the data,
especially when it's not clear.
Again, the assertions made by an observer,
they should be using data to support those assertions.
And so if you have questions about the data that has been
collected, you should ask,
particularly when it's not specific.
Should also discuss areas of improvement in terms of, uh,
the performance indicators, so use the language.
The components in the Domains 2 and 3 are very clear,
as are the performance indicators.
So be clear on where the observer feels you are currently
and where you need to be and how to get there.
You know, go in with reflections about the lesson.
Don't come in cold.
What a good observer,
a good evaluator wants to hear is that you're thinking
about the practice of teaching.
So go in and share those reflections,
both the highlights and things that did not go according to
plan.
And remember that if you can show your flexibility and
adaptability during a lesson based on a disruptive,
you know, student or a situation that is, you know,
perhaps out of your control,
a technology issue that comes up,
those are positive attributes.
And so-
Mm-hmm
...
you can say, "Hey, look, you know, I realize this happened.
This is how I responded to it.
I hope that that was appropriate and effective."
Those are some of the most powerful conversations I've had
in post-observation meetings with,
with teachers that I've worked with,
is that sometimes they've come in and been like,
"Oh my gosh, this student event happened,
and I'm so sorry." Those things are going to happen.
Absolutely.
However,
this is the response that you had Let's talk about your
response.
Right
And when we have that conversation together and we talk
about that reflection,
the teacher understands they actually responded really
well.
They did a great job, and, and upon reflection,
understanding this is the response the teacher had,
this is the skill that they demonstrated,
and they ended up getting the kind of behavior back from
the student that they needed,
that that redirection worked.
That kind of reflection,
that conversation tends to be very positive.
Again,
the teacher's role in the post-observation conference isn't
to say, "Ugh,
it wasn't perfect." It's about the response and the growth
and the conversation.
Right.
So definitely come in with those reflections.
I think that's a really good tip for our listeners.
And I think also talking about those things that you have
been doing to develop your skills and your dispositions and
what you'll be doing going forward.
So what I would hear then as an evaluator is that you've
already thought-
Mm-hmm
...
about some of the areas that you're trying to improve,
and they may be contextual.
You might have a tough group of students in one of your
classes, and you-
Or a student is having a tough day.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And so you've already started to think about how am I going
to mitigate that?
How am I going to make that better for a learning
experience for all students?
If I'm hearing that as the evaluator,
it tells me that you are vested in the profession,
you're vested in the school community,
and in what you do with those kids.
Mm-hmm.
That post-observation conference, important as it is,
and again, this,
this podcast is d- kind of more of a deep dive into,
to that one conversation,
but that's not the only conversation,
and it's certainly not where the year-long conversation and
that evaluation process happens.
So where does this formal observation or the
post-observation conversation,
where does that fit into what really becomes a summative
evaluation?
How do all those things fit together?
How about that?
Sure.
Teachers have to keep in mind that it's one snapshot.
Now,
it's an important snapshot because it's a formal observation,
but there are other pieces to the puzzle,
to the summative evaluation.
Um-
I call it pixels to the picture when I talk to teachers.
Ex- exactly.
Exactly.
That's exactly what it is.
Mm-hmm.
You may have multiple formal evaluations.
You might have some informal evaluations,
evaluations of your work in both domains one and four that
contribute to the summative evaluation.
You can also talk with your evaluator about other areas of
your role as an educator and within-
Mm-hmm
...
the school community that are important to you and,
and that show that you are committed to the success of the
school.
A- again, going back to the common denominator,
that is what an evaluator is all about.
It's typically administrators.
We're helping to guide the culture of that school,
the climate of that school,
and that's what they wanna hear,
is that this is a one-hour perhaps class that they're
observing,
but it's not the full picture of who you are as a person,
as an educator,
and as a contributing member of this school community.
You know, I would say, you know,
invite that observer to come into your class again-
Mm-hmm
...
especially s- when you're doing something new and
innovative,
which are also valuable qualities in an employee and,
and an educator,
and it shows that you wanna share in that with them.
So I think sharing those stories of you, who you are,
who you have become so far,
and who you wanna become as an educator,
I think that that's all part of what you want that
evaluator to know about you.
Mm-hmm.
It gains confidence.
I've both watched that happen with, uh,
the teachers I've worked with.
It's, it's about transparency, it's about confidence,
it's about the relationship that develops between those
people working together,
and it deepens that conversation because really,
the evaluation process is about growth.
Mm-hmm.
It's about growth.
It's about a conversation.
It is about what becomes what's best for kids-
Right
...
and growth in teachers, growth in those skills,
growth in the ideas.
All of those things lead to the best education for
students.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So as we kind of approach the end of our conversation here
together today,
what's the best piece of advice you would give to new
teachers approaching the evaluation cycle?
Yeah.
Be prepared for the observations.
Be prepared for the entire evaluation process,
and know what those pieces are and what they mean.
But I- I think that the piece of advice that I would give
would be don't be discouraged by critical feedback.
It's what helps us grow.
Use it as an opportunity to hone your practices as a
guidepost, and remember, this is one person's perspective.
Another-
Mm-hmm
...
observer,
evaluator might have a completely different perspective.
Um-
But it's all come back to, hopefully,
at least in our state, it comes back to a rubric.
It comes back to that framework.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what you need to remember is so you have
performance gaps, right?
An evaluator says, you know,
"You need to work on this." So use that rubric to your
advantage.
Dig into the practice of what a distinguished teacher looks
like and commit to getting there.
That's your roadmap,
and you have to engage in constant reflection to that end.
Make yourself a valuable asset to the school community is,
is another thing to keep in mind.
We all grow together.
Ed,
I think that's a really great piece to end on because it is
about that sense of community, that, uh,
sense of togetherness, and no one goes that alone.
They should definitely have a partner in that process.
So Ed,
thank you so much for joining us today and giving your
perspective, um, as an associate professor,
as a director of ed- graduate education.
I think that, um, your insights,
especially as this deep dive, have been very valuable,
so I appreciate your time today.
Well, thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
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