Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Will South Africa Bounce Back? JK & Victor Matfield on Ellis Park "Hiding!"

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Will South Africa Bounce Back? JK & Victor Matfield on Ellis Park "Hiding!" · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
What a game though, Victor.
0:01
What a game, eh, mate?
0:02
For this team and a new coaching staff, under those circumstances, amazing.
0:08
If you look at the game, I still believe the Brocks were the better team.
0:12
I think our bench made a bigger impact than the South Africa bench.
0:16
Can I just get something else?
0:17
Mr Kirwan said the referee was outstanding.
0:21
There was probably about five goals in a row that just went unbelievably fast.
0:27
To the All Blacks.
0:28
Fabian's charged down.
0:29
I thought it was incredible.
0:32
Offside position.
0:34
He was not offside, Victor.
0:35
World champions.
0:38
It's at 95, 2017, 19 and 23.
0:43
Just showing you.
0:44
We'll be back.
0:50
Welcome to Ram Hand-to-Hand Careers Rugby Rivals.
0:53
J.K. Victor, I'm guessing you've got a bit to say today.
0:57
Victor, how are you, my friend?
1:00
Is that an all-black jersey?
1:01
Is that an all-black jersey?
1:03
No, it's just a black shirt for a Black Monday.
1:07
We said we're wearing the shirts after the series, not after games.
1:12
It's a Black Monday.
1:13
So I'm starting with a black heart this morning.
1:17
You're like when you play Paper, Scissors, Rock, and you lose, and you go, no, no, best of three.
1:22
But we said it's about the series, not after every game.
1:25
Are you crazy?
1:26
Have you got an all-black jersey ready?
1:28
No, not yet.
1:31
Still not losing the series.
1:32
Very confident.
1:34
What a game, though, Victor.
1:35
What a game, eh, mate?
1:37
Like, for us, I just want to start by saying this, you know, like for us to get that win, you guys have set the standard for a long, long time.
1:46
For us to get that win, mate, like there was just so many key moments in the second half, you know, that scrum under the post, and everyone afterwards saying, oh, you should have taken the kick, but...
1:56
So it's just, you know, you guys have set the standard for a long time.
1:59
It's just such a big game for us.
2:01
I said, when we win the World Cup next year, when we win the World Cup next year, if we win the World Cup next year.
2:08
You like the English media now.
2:10
You like English media.
2:12
One game and you will turn.
2:14
You got to let me finish.
2:15
You got to let me finish because I knew you'd say that.
2:17
I'd be like the English now.
2:20
We're not.
2:20
We didn't do a lap of honor.
2:22
We were really humble.
2:23
We're really humble.
2:24
But seriously.
2:25
But you are.
2:25
Not them.
2:26
The players are humble.
2:28
Yeah, but I'm trying to be humble.
2:29
I'm just trying to explain myself because I'm so happy for the boys.
2:32
You know, there's moments in time, and you know this because you've been parts of big sides and had big wins like the Bulls and the Springboks.
2:41
For this team and a new coaching staff,
2:44
There's a moment in time where, you know, because I think Dave Rene has done an amazing job and the boys have been following him and playing, they're smiling on their faces.
2:52
But to win at Alice Park, Victor, to win at Alice Park for this side just cements your belief.
2:58
You know, Rushie would have been through it.
3:00
You would have been through it.
3:01
And I just think it's so important for those young guys.
3:04
We know you guys are going to come back.
3:05
We know it's going to be a massive series because you're such a great side.
3:09
But for this side to win under those circumstances, amazing.
3:14
Yeah, I must say as well, I need to add on to it.
3:17
So, I mean, we had a side entry yesterday, a final whistle, and we talked about it.
3:27
I mean, everyone was a bit down after the game.
3:29
But for me, I was like, if you look at the game, I still believe the Brocks were the better team.
3:34
But I mean, especially a team like the All Blacks growing now,
3:39
That's what you want to do.
3:41
You want to go into games where you said, how did we win this game?
3:44
And they won it comfortably, to be honest.
3:46
And it was moments in the game where there was players, and we'll talk later about the players who I think stepped up,
3:55
They're just the right call at the right time, nothing flashy, just the right thing.
4:00
And that's how you're on a board.
4:02
I mean, I played in some of the best teams I played with.
4:05
We had players like that, that just under pressure at the right time.
4:10
You're almost out of the game.
4:12
Just do the right thing.
4:13
All of a sudden you're ahead, all of a sudden you're back in the game.
4:17
And that's what the All Blacks did.
4:19
I must say well done to you guys.
4:22
I mean, you handled this storm, stood up, and made great decisions, and, yeah, you deserve to win that game.
4:30
JK, can I just jump in there?
4:31
Two moments that really stood out, and I'd love to hear what you both think about them.
4:35
One was...
4:37
Fabian Hollins try.
4:39
It came at a crucial time.
4:40
You know, he played 80 minutes.
4:42
You know, here's a guy who's just come off injury.
4:45
Hasn't got a lot of international experience, but really stepped up at the crucial time, just as you said, Victor.
4:53
Oh, if you are, I can answer that because I thought he was my personal player of the day.
5:00
I thought his physicality...
5:02
So like Victor said...
5:05
Going in at halftime with a one-point difference was like boys were hanging in.
5:11
And if you look at that game, I thought Fabian was just, he was really, really strong on defence, and his physicality was matching what you need to play South Africa.
5:23
So there were key moments.
5:24
That was a massive moment, but the key moment for me was the scrum.
5:30
The key moment for me was the scrum under the post a few minutes before.
5:36
the amazing thing that Dave Rene did is he put Osafa Amor on for that scrum, you know, took Cody Taylor off.
5:44
And that was an incredible moment.
5:46
And I think our bench made a bigger impact than the South Africa bench.
5:50
Now, I know that would have been hard for Russie because he had to move his team around because of injury early, so he was shuffling around.
5:57
But that was the moment for me, Ricardo.
5:59
But Fabian, for me, was player of the day.
6:01
Just a massive, massive 80-minute effort.
6:04
I want to ask you, Ram Hand to Hand Curriers, who I've asked to send you an all-black jersey to make sure you've got one Victor.
6:11
Make sure you've got one Victor.
6:13
So, Ram Hand to Hand Curriers, who delivered under pressure for you, JK?
6:18
Fabian.
6:20
Unbelievable.
6:21
So, for me, Ram Hand to Hand Currier, and I'm going to give this and the other one to all-black players.
6:28
For me, Tupai, you say?
6:33
Quint Tupai, yeah.
6:35
I think, I mean, you took the lead, kick off from Sasha, it's a deep kick off, under pressure, he made the decision not to catch the ball, let it go dead, push it down, then five minutes later, you're in your own 40.
6:50
You get that ball, the grubber that he puts through gets a 50-22, you're in our… And I mean, those are the things that we win World Cups.
6:59
Those little things, having the calmness, having the… just a mindset to do the right thing at the right time.
7:06
So for me, Ram, hand-to-hand couriers, under pressure delivery.
7:11
was to buy in that critical moment where he took the lead and he did two brilliant decisions on the field.
7:19
You're obviously in a good mood about the All Blacks, so I'll go straight to the Ecliptor of the moment.
7:23
Obviously, it's an All Black one as well, isn't it?
7:25
What about Blake?
7:28
I asked you the question and you answered it with two words.
7:30
You gave a shit answer.
7:32
And Victor picked it up.
7:36
That's brilliant.
7:37
Well, I was going to add, before you rudely interrupted me, both of you, I was going to add the front row replacements, all three of them, ram-to-ram, hand-to-hand highlights and moments.
7:49
And the referee.
7:50
Can we throw the referee in as well?
7:52
It just gave him something for going backwards, gave him a penalty.
7:57
He delivered under pressure.
7:59
He did deliver under pressure.
8:01
He could have been man of the match as well.
8:03
I'm nominating for referee of the year.
8:06
I thought he was outstanding.
8:08
Can I just get something out?
8:09
And then I'm not going to talk to it.
8:11
I heard Mr. Kirwan said the referee was outstanding.
8:17
Well, I thought in that second half, I mean, up till 55, we were dominating.
8:22
And then there was probably about five goals in a row that just went unbelievably to the All Blacks.
8:30
And it started at that scrum.
8:32
I mean, we went through it yesterday on side entry.
8:35
I mean, your number one went on the angle so badly.
8:39
And I mean, that's why we just shifted away because one went around the angle.
8:42
We were straight.
8:44
All of a sudden, we dominated the scrum.
8:46
We were going forward again.
8:48
All of a sudden, penalty again, South Africa.
8:50
Then we had the...
8:53
I think it was Fabian Holland going for the turnover on the ground.
8:57
Won the turnover.
8:58
We held him up.
8:59
You get the scrum.
9:00
Why didn't South Africa get the scrum?
9:02
It was a fair turnover.
9:03
All of a sudden, you get the scrum when we held you up.
9:05
It's a moal.
9:06
So we should have gotten that.
9:08
Then we had the tackle, Jacobson, on Reina.
9:15
I mean, he firstly hit the man without the ball, Jasper Wieser.
9:19
Then while counter-acting, tackling our nine.
9:23
Then two minutes later, exactly the same happened on our try-line.
9:27
Damien McKenzie tackles Jesse Creel, fall over the ball.
9:31
Jesse tried to place it.
9:32
He can't because Damien is lying there.
9:34
Then Marco van Staden comes from the side, tackles the nine exactly like Jacobson, and it's a yellow card.
9:40
So for me, that was just four decisions.
9:44
Yes, South Africa did make a lot of mistakes up to then.
9:47
But I mean, those four critical decisions
9:50
Just put us under so much pressure.
9:52
Yellow card.
9:53
And then I think the Springboks just felt the pressure and then the wheels came off.
9:58
Sorry, I had to get that out.
10:00
I know, Victor, and I don't think we should ever, because I know how humble you are and I know how I thought Rossi handled himself incredibly well after the game.
10:08
I don't think you and I should ever, because of being humble, I know you were.
10:12
I think he's a bit sarcastic, though.
10:14
Yeah, but I know.
10:15
But I think we need to say what we think on the show.
10:19
And I thought the ref, I was provoking you the other night, I thought the ref was one thing.
10:24
He only refereed the defensive side.
10:28
So what was happening?
10:31
I agree with you about a lot of those decisions.
10:34
They were 50-50 and they were key moments.
10:37
But what I noticed about this referee, when you're on attack, so I thought he was pedantic, especially in the first half and he didn't get any rhythm into the game and the boys got frustrated.
10:48
And for me, when a crowd does a Spanish wave, for me that's them judging the referee because he's bored.
10:55
And they did a Spanish wave after 15 minutes because there's only three minutes of football.
10:59
But what this referee did,
11:01
is if you look at the first half, he only referees the defensive side.
11:05
So if you're on attack and you're in the other half, nothing goes for you.
11:09
And that's what happened in the first half.
11:11
And in the second half, he did exactly the same.
11:13
So I don't think he's looking at the game from a whole.
11:16
I'm not going to get into technically what happened in that scrum, but that was the turning point.
11:20
But on the Jacobson one, I thought that whoever he took out was standing offside.
11:26
So he was fair game.
11:27
No, he was next to the ruck.
11:29
I showed some nice – yesterday I did a nice diagram where the ruck was.
11:34
Vise was next to the ruck.
11:36
So he hit him from the side, playing him without the ball, and then he played the nine.
11:40
And you're not allowed to play the nine.
11:42
And that was from the side as well.
11:44
So –
11:45
Just a crazy discussion.
11:46
Talk about...
11:47
But let's go past it.
11:48
I mean... Yeah, talk about this.
11:50
Hang on, Ricardo.
11:51
Hang on, Ricardo.
11:53
I actually want to put a full stop to this and we can move on because I think it's really, really important.
11:59
But the ability of a referee to read a game is fundamental now in what type of game of rugby we want.
12:08
The influence of the referees and the TMOs is incredible in a game of rugby nowadays.
12:14
So all I'm saying is the competency of the referees coming up is going to be fundamental.
12:20
If this goes to another few moments, but once again we're talking about some decisions of a referee.
12:26
Look, I think early on the All Blacks score in South Africa scored on the back of
12:33
a string of penalties, and that was in the first five, 10 minutes, and you sort of go, well, that's how this referee is going to go.
12:39
He's going to try and dominate, and he did.
12:44
But let's just get on to some of the players.
12:45
I mean, one of the things that struck me, I reckon... Can I just go, before we go to players as well, I just want to add one thing that was interesting with me with Rusty this weekend, and that's something you don't often see,
13:00
is South Africa went for the three points, New Zealand went for the 5-7.
13:05
Then we went for the three points, you went for the 5-7.
13:08
And normally we see South Africa being so confident.
13:11
And I think we probably just felt that pressure a little bit.
13:15
And then when we were three points, then we went for the three scrums, we got the turnover.
13:20
And the second thing for me that was just, we didn't see the impact of the bomb squat.
13:26
For the first time.
13:27
I mean, all the subs came on, but it wasn't like, okay, yes, there's four guys, they're coming together.
13:33
So I think that's something where...
13:36
We just felt the guys on the field were a little bit of a step ahead of the guys on the bench.
13:41
In the old days, it was 50-50.
13:44
We're going to keep both equal.
13:46
Even if you're playing well, these guys are coming on.
13:49
They're coming fresh.
13:50
I think just in that second half, where we normally see four or five forwards coming on, just having an impact, we didn't have that.
13:58
And somehow, I think the impact of the New Zealand players were better in the second half.
14:04
I agree with that.
14:05
I've got a couple of questions for you.
14:07
So everybody after the game, besides saying to me, oh, Kirwin, you talk a whole lot of cuck, man, besides yelling that at me.
14:15
But you do.
14:17
Yeah.
14:21
Would you, and you've been a captain and been in a lot of pressure situations, would you have taken the scrum or would you have taken the three points after you tried to score from a dominant scrum and you didn't because they're all-black defence and you're out?
14:37
I mean, it's so...
14:39
It's so difficult because they got the penalty every time.
14:42
So they actually had three plays.
14:43
So I think I would have gone for the scrum as well.
14:47
But what was funny for me is that we didn't go from the first.
14:51
First, maybe the first one was right in front of the poles, take the three points, get away.
14:56
Our second penalty that we took, and after that, you guys got seven points, I would have gone for the corner.
15:03
Keep that pressure on, stay in the 22.
15:06
And although even, I mean, with the scrum where the turnover came...
15:09
We actually made meters.
15:10
If you think about it, Sasha went through the hole, just over, was kept up over the line.
15:17
Then on the right-hand side, we actually scored.
15:18
They said there was a forward pass.
15:20
So it wasn't that we didn't get momentum.
15:23
We got all the momentum.
15:24
We just couldn't the ball on the grounds.
15:26
Even with the line-out more, we were over the line.
15:29
You would never see Malcolm Marks drop the ball over the line.
15:33
They came a hand in, knocked the ball out.
15:36
And it was just one of those days.
15:38
I played in a game like that against Japan, so sometimes that happened.
15:43
I was there that day.
15:44
No, but let's – and you've forgotten one thing, Victor, and I'm going to take – bow my hat off to Tanumanga.
15:51
You know, like if it was me, I probably would have gone, well, you know, it isn't our day.
15:58
But the All Blacks defense, after those three scrums, and you had 15 goes at it, and we still kept you out.
16:05
So you've got to take your hat off to the defense.
16:07
So that was one of the major questions that the people that I met out on the street were talking to me about.
16:15
Because South Africans are like New Zealanders, man.
16:17
They come in and they analyze the game straight away.
16:20
The other thing they said to me was, have we, and I knew this conversation would come up,
16:25
Have you changed the team too much and guys are underdone?
16:29
So they haven't played for a while.
16:32
And I'm a little bit 50-50 on that one.
16:35
I don't think so.
16:36
I think the combination is important.
16:40
I don't think so.
16:41
I mean, if you look at that first 55 minutes, J.K., we dominated the game.
16:45
Up to 55 minutes, we should have been hit by 20 points, 25 points probably.
16:50
I mean, we dominated, everything happened.
16:53
It was just one of those games where, I mean, the ball just slipped out here.
16:57
And it's not a, I mean, we broke the line.
16:59
I want to go see the line breaks.
17:00
We probably had 10, you had one and you scored a try from one line break.
17:05
But I mean, again, it's all blacks.
17:08
I mean, our scrum is one of our weapons.
17:10
I mean, now after this weekend, I think in the 22, you guys showed a weakness.
17:16
Because we focus so much on the scrum.
17:18
It's so easy for the eight to get outside the loose forward or the open side flanker there.
17:24
You scored two tries from a scrum in the 22 with a little blind side.
17:29
And I mean, both times you got on the outside of our loose forward.
17:34
And I can remember in the days when Oste Rundt wanted Skull Burger and said, you better be here, you need to scrum.
17:41
And Skull Burger, I need to defend as well.
17:43
So, I mean, now all of a sudden there's a contest.
17:46
Are the Bucks going for the turnover scrum?
17:48
Because if that channel one gets through straight away, Artie is around and he's away.
17:53
And, I mean, then you have to have two extra defenders on that side.
17:57
Normally, the extra guy take the nine.
18:00
But if eight javs around to lose four as well, you're in trouble.
18:03
And you score two tries like that.
18:04
But, I mean, that's clever.
18:05
And that's something a day for him that's getting cut.
18:09
That's actually how you lost to Japan.
18:11
They just got the ball and got it out.
18:12
And if I was a winger…
18:15
If I was a winger and they're going channel two, I'd be yelling at my loose forwards.
18:20
So I think it adds to the drama.
18:22
Sorry, Ricardo, we're not letting you speak at all, mate, which is, you know.
18:26
No, I tried to ask a question 11 minutes ago, but, you know, obviously you've both been saving up your words.
18:33
Yeah.
18:35
I thought in the first 30, 40 minutes, South Africa's ability to break the line was very impressive.
18:43
And we struggled to get over the advantage line a bit in that first sort of 40, 50 minutes.
18:48
And you talked about the number eight visa.
18:50
I thought he was outstanding.
18:54
You know, a real – but has he got a skill set apart from just running through people?
18:59
Yeah, I don't think that's how they use him.
19:01
I think his most important thing is he's a Dwayne Vermeerland type of eight where you want him to get to the advantage line.
19:10
You want him in the defensive line to make big hits.
19:12
And then the other ability he's got is over the ball.
19:15
So he's almost like an open sider as well.
19:17
So I don't think we need anything else.
19:20
We do have a guy like Cameron Hanakom that's completely different.
19:24
That's not as...
19:27
Powerful, but probably a bit quicker.
19:30
Got beautiful skills.
19:31
So you've got the other option.
19:33
But I mean, for us, Jasper is working what he's doing.
19:37
We don't want him to do anything else.
19:39
I think he was outstanding.
19:41
But again, I mean, he never makes mistakes.
19:43
All of a sudden, twice in the 22, break the line.
19:48
Somehow he knocks on the ball and it's turnover in the 22.
19:51
So it's just those little mistakes that killed us in the game.
19:55
It's called pressure.
19:56
And, Ricardo, I don't know what game you were watching, but I think you might have given five guys to the All Blacks and two of them in the first half by manipulating the South African defence.
20:05
So, like, you might have dominated parts of the game, but also the All Blacks scored.
20:12
Right?
20:12
No, JK.
20:14
You were going away that first half.
20:16
I mean, where's the quick throw, where's the white, white?
20:19
What happened?
20:19
What happened?
20:20
What do you mean we're going nowhere?
20:22
We ran in, there was one point difference.
20:25
So domination, you can call it whatever you like, but domination is action.
20:28
We missed three shots that we should have scored.
20:31
We missed three shots.
20:33
And that's the only reason.
20:35
So what does Rusty do now?
20:39
Does he completely change the team now like he does when he wins, or what does he do?
20:43
Don't know.
20:45
So there's one or two things.
20:46
He might make one or two changes because I...
20:49
I heard it might be a bit wet in Cape Town.
20:53
Or you'll go to these guys and say, you need to go out there and go fix this.
20:58
The one thing I would say, I think that had a big impact.
21:01
We haven't seen Grant Williams and Sascha Feinberg play together.
21:06
It's always been Sascha with Kourbis Reinhardt or it is Grant with Andre or Marnie Levok.
21:14
So that was the first time those two played together.
21:17
And it just felt, especially in the 22, where you need a little bit more of control, the communication wasn't there.
21:23
And then the other thing is injury in the first five minutes, Damien Dalende needs to move through 13.
21:30
Look, Andre Estrezon is a machine at 12.
21:32
But I think...
21:33
The communication skills of Damien Darlende at 12 is very important for us as well.
21:38
So that was missing next to Sasha as well.
21:40
So there's a few things that happened.
21:42
And that's probably the things that Rusty will look at.
21:45
Was the combination right?
21:46
Is there one or two things?
21:48
And that's the only thing.
21:49
The rest was good.
21:50
We've got two injuries on the wing.
21:52
We've got Skane and Moody and Ethan Ucker, two big, tall guys that will probably be better in the air that can come in.
22:00
So it will be interesting to see what we do.
22:02
What did you think, JK?
22:03
The All Blacks used that tactic of taking the high ball going backwards.
22:08
Saw that a lot, actually.
22:09
You talked about it last week and you saw that a lot where it was the player facing the trial line that was taking the ball rather than running into it.
22:17
What did you think of that tactic?
22:19
Well, you know what I think of that 28 kick, full stop, as an attacking tool.
22:25
You know, it's an incredibly hard kick to catch, and South Africa have been dominating us in the air.
22:34
So I think coming up with innovation around...
22:37
how you do that is important.
22:38
I thought it was still an area that they'll keep looking at.
22:41
I thought it was better.
22:42
You know, we did that counterattack from the 28 very quickly to Damien McKenzie, and off he goes.
22:48
So, you know, I think with South Africa, if New Zealand come away from this, they're not going to go, oh, you know, the scrum went well.
22:54
They have to be really realistic.
22:56
I thought Ethan...
22:57
De Groot showed incredible courage, but I think he did his knee very early, and I don't think that helped the scrum.
23:03
You know, I think we've got injury issues that we need to look at.
23:07
So they'll go away from this game.
23:08
I think there'll be some changes in the All Black side as well.
23:11
I think they'll be looking defensively at what we need to do better.
23:16
I think Rico Ioane will come back into the side, either on the wing.
23:19
probably on the wing.
23:21
So they'll go away.
23:23
I mean, what you're saying was, you know, that was an incredible win for us completely.
23:29
You know, all the reasons you said, Victor.
23:32
Incredible pressure, getting dominated at times.
23:35
So for me, coming up with ways to beat the Springboks strength is what you need to do.
23:42
So we'll be looking at the scrum, thought the line-out went pretty well, Victor, eh?
23:45
The line-out was probably even from a competition point of view.
23:48
What did you think about that?
23:49
And catching the high ball is fundamental if you want to be in the game against the Springboks.
23:55
And I think they'll be kicking.
23:58
I don't think the field-kicking game of South Africa was as good as what it could be.
24:03
You know, their 28-kicking was great.
24:05
So I think there'll be a little bit of a change of tactics this week from Russie.
24:09
He'll be kicking a wee bit more into our half, putting us under pressure.
24:14
So, yeah, I think you've got to have –
24:19
Totally.
24:19
But our kicking, yeah, totally.
24:21
But we have to slow your defensive line down.
24:24
I thought our tactical kicking was way better than yours.
24:29
We're kicking for a reason because your defence is so fast.
24:32
So I thought our field kicking was really good.
24:34
I didn't think yours at times.
24:37
was because I think you were dominating in areas.
24:39
Sometimes your strength becomes your weakness, like you said.
24:42
You're trying to dominate, and your loose forwards can't get off the scrum.
24:46
So strengths can become weaknesses at that level if you don't adjust, and I think your tactical kicking will change this week.
24:54
So, yeah, Ricardo, to answer your question, that was a long answer, but if you don't compete at scrum and if you don't compete the high ball from a kicking point of view, you're not going to win the test.
25:02
So I thought there were really good parts of it.
25:05
There's just a player I want to mention, someone I know pretty well actually, George Bauer.
25:13
He fell asleep on a pneumatic drill when he was working a construction site, and he was like, you know what, this is not the life for me.
25:19
I'm going to go down to Otago, I'm going to play rugby, and I'm going to go to university.
25:24
And his first introduction to the All Blacks was when he got called in as a club player to be in a commercial with the All Blacks.
25:31
And he was just one of the extras pretending to be an All Black in the background.
25:34
And a year later, he was in the All Blacks.
25:38
I thought he realised his own potential on the weekend.
25:43
You know, at some crucial times, made some big hits, stood up at scrum time, gave away a penalty but sort of bounced back.
25:52
What did you think of him, JK?
25:55
Well, I thought him and Asafa did an amazing job when they came on.
25:59
And I know Victor will analyse the scrum and talk about a prop boring on the hooker and cheating.
26:07
But I don't know any prop that doesn't work out a way illegally or legally to win a scrum.
26:12
So when they both came on, they were outstanding, I thought.
26:16
I especially thought that Asafa, you know, for his line-out throwing experience
26:21
and for what he did around the field was amazing.
26:23
But both of them, in my opinion, came off the bench and made a difference.
26:28
Whether it was illegal or legal, you know, Victor, you can comment on that.
26:31
But I thought they were both amazing.
26:33
Yeah, I think the scrum was much better in the second half for the All Blacks.
26:38
It's also the South African changes.
26:40
So I think for us, I mean, Paul Thin is a fantastic young kid.
26:45
I mean, he's 21 years old, 22 years old on the tight head, keeping some of the big boys out.
26:53
So interesting for me, I thought we probably made a mistake there.
26:57
The scrum needs to be...
26:59
a strong point for us and I don't think he's quite there where Thomas Sertoy will be.
27:05
That's why I feel like the bombsquat wasn't like we saw in the old days.
27:10
In the old days, once the loose head comes up, you bring the tight head with, you bring two locks.
27:15
I would like to see a guy like Lourdes Jager even maybe with
27:19
Corbis Visser on the bench, and you bring in that second half, you bring four or five, you can maybe keep Malcolm Marks to play 70, 80 minutes, but bring four new guys onto the field, have that impact, and almost tell to the All Blacks, OK, here's a new pack coming in the second half again.
27:38
Yeah, I think that's an important point because there's some incredible props coming through for the All Blacks as well.
27:46
But, you know, George came on.
27:50
Experience matters in the front row as well, Ricardo.
27:53
So coming on in that situation, like I said, seeing Cody Taylor run off.
27:59
And Asafa coming on and George coming on at those moments is like, that's a big call, man.
28:05
Like how many scrums was it under the posts?
28:07
That's pressure.
28:08
Wow.
28:09
Wow.
28:11
you're both going to the next game in different situations.
28:13
You know, the South Africans are going into the game, you know, as you said, some strong parts of their performance, but they have to get better, obviously, because, you know, they've got five tries to one.
28:22
So, you know, they need to get better.
28:25
The All Blacks go into the Test match with a win under their belt.
28:27
They've got confidence.
28:30
But obviously, they'll have parts of their game that they're not happy with.
28:33
So, are you both happy with the positions that you're in now, you know, going into this next test?
28:40
Start with you, Victor.
28:42
They can't be happy because we didn't win.
28:45
But, yeah, it will be a difficult week for me because I really feel like, I mean, if you look at the team and you talk about it,
28:53
Was the attitude there?
28:54
Yes, because we dominated for 55 minutes.
28:57
So, you can't say, listen, we won't switch on.
29:00
Did we dominate the scrums?
29:01
Yes, we did.
29:02
Did we get more line-up seals than the All Blacks?
29:04
Yes, we did.
29:05
Did we get more line breaks?
29:06
Yes, we did.
29:07
The only thing we couldn't do is we couldn't convert in the 22.
29:10
So that's definitely a work on.
29:13
And I thought our attack in the 22 with the communication, I mean, you'll never see a Springbok team
29:19
when they have a good game, give more than 10 turnovers.
29:21
We gave 21 turnovers away.
29:24
So maybe we played too much.
29:26
Maybe we must play less, kick more, grind more.
29:30
But it will be interesting to see because I think it's going to be a very difficult week because I think actually a lot of things work.
29:36
We just couldn't get the ball down over the trial line.
29:39
So that's something that we'll work on.
29:42
But for us, everyone talks, we need to win three games.
29:46
There's nothing about that.
29:48
We're playing the All Blacks in South Africa.
29:51
We need to beat him in one game, and that's next week.
29:54
That's the only focus we can have.
29:55
Go in there, yes, there was a lot of things that worked.
29:58
There's a lot of things that didn't go right.
30:01
There's one or two things in our 22.
30:03
I think that's the easiest any team has ever scored against the Springboks in the 22.
30:09
We need to sort that out.
30:10
And I think then we go into this game and say, listen, we need to go and beat the All Blacks.
30:16
It's a one-off test match.
30:17
You are both delusional.
30:20
Even you, Riccardo, you keep coming back and saying to me that the Springboks dominated for 55 minutes.
30:26
They did.
30:27
There was one point difference.
30:29
No, except on the scoreboard.
30:31
I said it.
30:31
They couldn't get the ball done.
30:33
Yeah, well, isn't that rugby?
30:35
Did you guys not see the tries we scored in the first half?
30:38
by manipulating the defence.
30:40
Like, come on, please.
30:42
You dominated.
30:42
Hold on, hold on.
30:43
It was a slighter block.
30:44
Can you both just get caught?
30:45
One try with an offside charge down, same as you, but... All right, well, what was your clip drift moment in the game?
30:51
What was... JK?
30:56
My clip drift moment of the day would have to be Fabian's charge down.
31:01
I thought it was incredible.
31:02
Offside position.
31:04
Because it was the moment...
31:07
He was not offside, Victor.
31:08
He was offside.
31:09
Go check the clip.
31:11
He wasn't offside.
31:12
Samus Yibben was offside.
31:13
I don't need to.
31:14
The ref, I don't need to check the clip on the scrums or on anything.
31:17
The ref had an outstanding game in decision-making.
31:20
Even with Artie, that wasn't him a high shot.
31:23
I mean, Artie hit the guy around the hips and slid up a little bit.
31:26
Like, that's not a yellow card.
31:30
Say nothing.
31:32
No, you should say something because they were moments that it was on our foot.
31:36
So my clip drift moment is that charge down, incredibly onside, great pressure.
31:41
He's a big man.
31:41
And then to juggle it and catch it and go over the trine line was a moment for me.
31:46
And what about you, Victor, your clip drift moment of the match?
31:49
My clip drift moment?
31:52
The first moment of the game was a moment, but it's also a player.
31:57
I think that pass of Cam Roygaard on the dry line to Will Jordan in front of Hoor, attacking players was just unbelievable.
32:06
And I thought he was the difference in the game.
32:09
We said it the whole year and actually, JK said before the Test Series he might be the guy that wins it for New Zealand.
32:17
He made me think of Faridah Priya just doing the right things.
32:21
I mean, if our winger were a bit wider, he would have just stepped out, man on his shoulder, put him away.
32:28
And he was so good.
32:29
I mean, the other try from the scrum as well,
32:32
putting it up quickly, just giving that one step, putting Jacobson away.
32:36
So for me, that pass of Cam Roy got made me think of a Farid of Rian.
32:41
I think he's going to be so critical for the All Blacks going forward.
32:45
I mean, he's going to be a stock.
32:47
Now, with the test and Cape Town, do you think you two might get together for a Clippers and Cope?
32:52
Yeah.
32:54
Yeah, we need two.
32:57
Would you calm down by then, Victor?
33:00
Maybe after the game, after we've won, we will.
33:04
So you don't want to stay in 21.
33:06
I actually want to invite JK on Friday afternoon, if he's not busy, to come have lunch with us.
33:12
We'll see if he's available.
33:15
You sound, by your voice, JK, you sound like you've been working very hard.
33:20
Yeah, I've been working hard.
33:21
Yeah, I've been working very hard, mate.
33:22
It's been a hard...
33:23
It's so great.
33:24
Graham Henry keeping you busy.
33:29
Some red wine.
33:31
I saw Sir Ted the other day.
33:33
He's in fine form.
33:35
No, it's been a great few days.
33:36
I mean, I think for me, Ricardo, once again, the banter here in South Africa is no better.
33:43
You know, I love the humour.
33:45
I love the sarcasm.
33:47
I love the taking the mickey out of each other.
33:50
And it's just been a really joyful days, you know.
33:54
getting ribbed from people.
33:57
It's been just fantastic.
33:58
It's been great, had a great time, mate.
34:00
And look, I think this is gonna be a massive week.
34:03
The Springboks are world champions.
34:06
We know that there were moments in that game where we're under the pump.
34:09
So it really makes for an intriguing week.
34:11
From a tactical point of view, from both coaches, do they change, what are they gonna do?
34:15
And that's rugby, you know?
34:17
I know I caught up with the boys after the game.
34:20
They have incredible respect.
34:23
for the South African team.
34:24
I thought Russi was really, really hurting after the game and he could have been a bit more vocal about a few things that went in the game, but that's what it's all about.
34:33
It's been great being here.
34:36
He doesn't need to be vocal because that's Victor's job.
34:40
I had to stand up for him for once.
34:44
Why haven't you spoken about the Ardy moment, which was an outstanding piece of refereeing overruling the TMO?
34:51
Well, you give your point of view and then Victor will disagree.
34:55
I thought it was a penalty, not a yellow card.
34:58
No, but there was three penalties for me in a row there.
35:01
I mean, that was that.
35:03
And then Damien McKenzie made the tackle and he fell on the other side, right in front of the ball and just nothing.
35:12
No pool, nothing.
35:14
That's why I didn't ask that question, J.K.?
35:17
Pardon?
35:19
That's why I didn't ask that question, because I didn't want to make him angry.
35:22
He's had enough of the black jersey shirt.
35:26
He's putting his balls one back on, is he?
35:27
Black card, just show you here.
35:29
Put on my springboard jersey again.
35:33
Just want to show you.
35:35
Can you see?
35:36
Yeah.
35:37
World champions.
35:38
Yeah.
35:39
It said 95, 2017, 19, and 23.
35:40
Just showing you.
35:41
We'll be back.
35:48
We'll be back.
35:48
Can we just, can we just, I would just like to make something, and I don't know if Ricardo can go back into the archives and find this, but even all your supporters, because most of the people who listen to this game, there's a few people I spoke to who are actually at the gym when they listen to our podcast.
36:06
So just saying to those people in the gym, make sure you do a couple of extra sets and don't, you know, don't be sookie in the gym.
36:15
Make sure you finish your workout.
36:16
But most people think,
36:18
understood that you were supposed to be on this podcast with an all-black jersey on.
36:22
That's how I understood it.
36:23
That's how the whole world understood it.
36:25
But obviously our bet was very different.
36:26
After the series.
36:27
After the series.
36:30
Oh, is that it?
36:30
If we win the series, you'll have a spring milk jersey.
36:34
If you win the series, I'll wear an all-black jersey.
36:38
I've got Ali Williams' jersey at her house.
36:43
it's like paper scissors rock if you lose the first one best of three always the way well what was your interpretation best out of four best out of four what was your interpretation Ricardo you've won the battle but not the war guys come on
37:04
All right, well, I'm going to jump on rugbyrivals.com and talk to the nice people there.
37:10
Can I just make a comment?
37:11
Can I just make a comment?
37:13
No, I'm going to because, like, who makes a pair of socks with the World Cup, four World Cups on them?
37:21
Everywhere I go in this country, man, like, it's just next level.
37:25
You can buy a toilet seat with spring box and everything around it.
37:32
Do you have a toilet seat?
37:33
The only guys that can do is the guys that's won four World Cups, and that's only us.
37:38
Unfortunately.
37:39
Only Victor can... His socks are long enough to put all the World Cups on it.
37:42
Most people can't fit them.
37:44
Very true.
37:47
Bring on this week.
37:48
The course is a bit of concern.
37:49
We must go straight around, but that's not... We don't talk about that.
37:53
Just before we finish, I'm just loving the idea of how much pressure... Can we just finish off now?
37:58
No, how much pressure is your team going to be on this week?
38:02
You know?
38:03
The series could be over, mate.
38:05
I think less pressure...
38:08
Because everyone was just expecting us to win and win by a big margin.
38:11
So you could just see the guys once they would be...
38:13
I think they still thought they would win it until the ref came in with that scrum, of course.
38:21
And then you could just steal the pressure because...
38:25
You are still full-time world champions and you are under pressure, Victor, because of this.
38:32
Can I tell you something?
38:35
There's one team that's lost the first British Highs Lions game.
38:40
The only team and won the series.
38:42
The only team that's lost the pool stage twice in World Cup and still win the World Cup.
38:47
So, Sir John Cohen, don't get ahead of yourself.
38:52
Still early days.
38:54
Right, I'm going to shut you both up.
38:57
That's enough.
38:59
With two children.