Latest / Better Together / The Truth About Leadership and Performance with Keith Meyerson
Transcript
- Kelly Sundsvold: Welcome back to the Better Together podcast, real talk for real people building real businesses. I'm Kelly Sonsvold on a here with my co-host Sean. And today we're diving into what it means to lead with purpose in both people and process. Our guest is someone who brings heart, strategy and clarity to everything he does. Keith Meyerson is a learning and talent strategist, certified performance coach, professor and PhD student. He's helped launch over 50 learning and talent systems and is known for architecting succession plans that actually stick. Whether he's coaching leaders, teaching in a classroom, or guiding organizations through change, Keith brings a thoughtful, grounded approach to how we grow, personally and professionally. We're excited to welcome him to the show, so welcome, Keith. Keith Meyerson: Thanks Kelly and Sean. I'm glad to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, us too, us too. So let's start kind of at the beginning with your journey. How did you first get into learning and development work? was there a moment or a mentor that really shaped this start for your career? Keith Meyerson: I, you know, it dates back to my time in the Marine Corps when I was a water survival instructor as one of my jobs. But I would say the person that had the most impact on my professional career was Dr. Jim Catalano. When I was working at Tiffany and Company, he was head of organizational development. ⁓ I went through a leadership development course and the light bulb went off. like, this, this just, this sits ⁓ we do in learning and talent sits at the intersection of everything that happens in the business. And I've always liked that being on the inside, knowing what's going on, giving advice, helping people and businesses succeed. So launched me into my master's ⁓ ⁓ L and O D, got my master's in that. And then on now to my pursuit of my doctorate program in leadership studies. Shawn Sundsvold: That's awesome. And thank you for your service, by the way. I'm sure that water instruction process is no joke for that, right? Keith Meyerson: It was a lot of fun. It's actually, there's a evolution in that called drown proofing, which we basically teach people how to not drown, right? Because every, we're amphibious in the Marine Corps. So the fun anecdote to that is my kids were drown proofed at age three. I mean, they were in the water and they could swim tied up if they needed to, so. ⁓ Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. That's awesome. Kelly Sundsvold: Honestly, that's a good thing, know? Like good survival skill, right? Keith Meyerson: Absolutely. You have to find a way to take military skills and translate them into civilian application. That was a stretch, but we were adamant because we heard horror stories of little kids drowning and when we put in a pool, we wanted to make sure they were safe. So it was good transition. Shawn Sundsvold: Ha! Yeah Yeah, yeah, for sure. One of the things we talked about in the beginning was that you've launched over 50 learning and talent systems. you know, I somewhere in there, I want to make a joke of, you know, businesses drowning and not having enough good talent development, but that is pretty awesome, right? To put together 50 different ones of those. Was there one project that really challenged you or changed the way that you work? Kelly Sundsvold: Absolutely. Keith Meyerson: I think each engagement provided its own unique challenges. And I think early on it was interesting because in 2009, 2010 was the start of this metamorphosis in the field and it was really the tail wagging the dog. The vendors were consolidating. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: learning management systems were being combined with ATS, applicant tracking systems, which were being combined with talent, which included performance management, succession planning and compensation. ⁓ I think the light bulb moment for me was organizations aren't set up like that. So the technology was integrated, but the departments weren't integrated. And ⁓ found myself at an engagement with a national well-known retailer where Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: The learning team never talked to the performance team, we never talked to the OD team. Like how do you have these disparate functions when the technology is integrated? So really was a ⁓ bulb moment for me to help organizations understand how all of these separate modules impact one another and the needed internally to support it. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm. Yeah. And I think there's something to that I want to dig into a little bit there because these systems weren't in place. Right. So how did you bring together these different departments to go? What is it they need to learn? How do we track it? Like walk us through that conversation as you're bringing these, you know, these siloed groups together in these larger organizations. Keith Meyerson: think the key is having what we call, well, the business workshops, basically. There's business process alignment workshops. ⁓ it's getting all of the players into the room and having conversations about why are you doing this and what does success look like? Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: and having them through conversation understand the impacts that they have on each other. Because when you talk to the learning team about what are you trying to show, is it cheeks in the seats is it true impact? And if you lead them down that discussion, well, it's true impact. Well, how are you measuring impact? Are you measuring ⁓ closing the gaps on ⁓ performance competencies? Well, you need to talk to your performance team about that. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: Are you trying to increase the amount of ready now successors? Well, what are you doing showing that learning is helping with career pathing talent reviews? you just as a consultant understanding all of the impacts and working with them, ⁓ they to the realization themselves, which ⁓ that's ⁓ you're the rubber meets the road, right? It's not ⁓ the head in the room telling them what they need to do. They're gonna really bought in once they figure it out on their own. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, very cool. I think it's, don't know, having been in an organization, you know, a large organization ⁓ that started coming out. and watching that process go through. I worked for a large computer company in 2007, 2008 when that was really hitting the ground. And I remember watching that process and a lot of us that were sitting there as the employees, right? We're going, oh, we have to go to another training. And then they give us this quiz afterwards. And then six weeks later, it's like we're going through the same training again because nobody communicated. Keith Meyerson: Well, I think to that point, training is very misunderstood. There's a huge gap between training professionals and the business because the business wants to have measurements like how many people attended, what were the scores, right? All of these, we call them vanity metrics in the profession where we as learning leaders want to show that we solve the business problem. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: And you can't do that by what I had one CHRO call sheep dipping. So the business has a problem with a unit employee something, I will just send them the training. And no one takes the time to go through a root cause analysis to determine is training even the right intervention? And if so, what are the other impacts that need to happen? a ton of stories about this. And that's why I created a root cause analysis and goal achievement workshop because Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: I think we need to separate problems from symptoms. my favorite examples is, I mean everyone can resonate with this, in the field you'll have a CHRO come to the learning team and say, know, our attrition is too high, we need to lower the scores. And I'll say, well, you know, where are at? Well, you know, we have like 75 % voluntary turnover in this one department. I'm like, okay, well. Shawn Sundsvold: and Keith Meyerson: What do you want it to be? Well, she's like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, if I get it to 74, are gonna be happy? What's that 1 % give you? Oh no, we need more than that. Well, how much more and why? And then by asking these questions, you finally uncover things like, well, we have all of this institutional knowledge leaving the organization. Oh, so it's not a number you're looking for, it's knowledge retention for succession planning. Okay, let's build around that. Or, Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Keith Meyerson: losing a lot of money. Okay, again, it's not a percentage change. ⁓ wanna decrease ⁓ recruiting costs ⁓ to turnover, yes. ⁓ these conversations being more consultative help us understand what is the true business impact they're looking for ⁓ then we can design the right intervention to address that. And honestly, that rarely is focused solely on training. We need to get recruiting, we need to get comp, we might even need to get legal or sales involved. And that's been a constant evolution the field is us trying, we always say, we want a seat at the table. ⁓ Well, you acting like you deserve to be there is my response, ⁓ or you just reporting on vanity metrics? And if so, you don't deserve a seat at the table. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. And something you mentioned in all that is a succession plan. ⁓ ⁓ know, ⁓ went through my last organization that I worked for was in the middle of the CEO It was a big deal. And I'm not sure we were totally prepared for everything. And so a big part of your work is actually helping companies build a plan for succession. Why do you think that So many organizations struggle with it. Keith Meyerson: enough time in this podcast to answer that question. ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, I'm sure. sure. I don't even think ⁓ place that I ⁓ that had the CEO had a new CEO. I don't even think they had ⁓ a help with that and it was a big deal and it just sort of it was like one day the new guy was there. ⁓ Keith Meyerson: One of the biggest issues I see in the leadership development field, and that includes succession planning, is that are reactive and not proactive. ⁓ do not establish what it means to be a leader ⁓ our organization. So everyone knows as first-time supervisor, as a manager, as a director, as a VP, as an executive, ⁓ what the competencies and behaviors that are expected of each role? Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. ⁓ Keith Meyerson: And if you haven't defined those, how can you have any type of succession planning? It's going to be this very ubiquitous conversation about, this person, right? And that's not how it should be, but that's the reality of what it comes down to, right? So you have this ⁓ chasm, again, between people understanding what it means to be a leader and being held accountable to that and being given the resources ⁓ the training to actually exhibit those behaviors. and we find in a lot of organizations, they run contrary to what's actually happening as part of the culture, right? We might have a poster on the wall that says, you know, value teamwork, but meanwhile, people are walking through the hallway ⁓ through the venue and there's garbage on the ground and their attitude is, I'm not picking it up, that's not my job. Well, then you don't have teamwork, right? And I tell everyone, I run a building. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Keith Meyerson: workshop and one of the things I define is accountability and I redefine it as you're now accountable to each other not your boss and and I say It one of the things I try to impart is You know, I'll ask how many people of you are part of a team and everyone will raise their hands I'm like, yeah, you're not part of a team. Like what do you mean where this is our team? We're right here. We report to that person I said look, I only have two analogies. They're they're military and and football. That's it right? That's all I know So you're on a football team ⁓ an offensive lineman misses an misses a block, ⁓ and the is sacked, do you think they're waiting ⁓ to go the sideline to have ⁓ the ⁓ say ⁓ Or do think a conversation is happening in the huddle? Someone's grabbing that guy by the face mask, peer to peer, and going, dude, if you do that again, ⁓ I'm going say something, right? Or you're going ⁓ to feel. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: We don't do that in corporate America. We don't hold our colleagues accountable because we've been taught that that's not our job, right? It's the boss's job. But imagine how well a team could work if we empowered them to have that trust in each other. That they knew that this person is having words with me because they're concerned about not only my individual performance, but we all know it affects the team dynamics and the team performance. So all of that to say, Kelly, Shawn Sundsvold: No. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Keith Meyerson: There is so many variables into why succession planning doesn't exist, but it all starts with defining what does it mean to be a leader in our organization? And I think organizations have job descriptions, but very few have flexible, dynamic, and accurate competency models for leadership levels. Shawn Sundsvold: I absolutely love that statement and, you know, kind of talking on that leadership development side, you mentioned the accountability between ⁓ members, right? Not just a boss and, you know, we've all had that moment, but, you know, to accountable to other team members to do the job that you're supposed to be doing, right? ⁓ And you know, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term, but decentralized leadership, right? There's a big, that's really a big push on that, right? Is to own your your stuff, own your role. Kelly Sundsvold: Well said. Shawn Sundsvold: because everybody else has to, right? So, know, what it, kind of on that subject and looking at leaders and employees, like what is something you wish more executives really understood about developing their leaders? Keith Meyerson: I feel like this was a softball. I feel like we had this conversation prior to this and we didn't. This is the first time you and I have ever met. So I was at Topgolf and we engaged with Disney Institute, which is the external training wing of Disney Company. And for people that have been to Disney, they might recognize stories such as, you know, a guest drops their ice cream. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: Well, a cast member doesn't need to go ask a supervisor for permission to get a new ice cream. They give a new ice cream, right? There are no lost kids at Disney. There's only lost parents. ⁓ cast members make it a fun experience for the kids until they're reunited so they're not scared. ⁓ A ⁓ pet stuffed animal is lost. It's not lost. It's on an adventure. ⁓ And it's found, it's sent back with a picture book. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Keith Meyerson: of all the places in the park. So this is guest recovery, service recovery. And the way that Disney does it and then we incorporated it uniquely at Topgolf was ⁓ created decision tree and a framework. And then we train leaders and employees. And the leaders are trained to, you cannot micromanage anymore. We're creating this decision framework. ⁓ teammates are now ⁓ and expected. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm. Keith Meyerson: to use their brains and service the customer and find ways to make moments that matter. And then we train the employees on this decision framework. Is it safe? Right, that's the first kind of litmus test and we just go through and I'm probably gonna get these wrong, it's been a couple of years, but is it safe? Is it thoughtful? Is it entertaining? And is it responsible? And if it meets all of those criteria, then the answer is do it. You don't need to ask for permission, go do it. And we trained both groups on how to do this. What we saw was a, and it was intended, right? Why are we even doing this? ⁓ we want to be nicer to our guests. No, we're not, a business. We want to make more money, right? We want to increase the number of return visits. And we doubled the number of return visits, right? It worked. And we found that team members were now competing with each other because now they're telling stories and it's becoming part of the culture. look how creative I was for this birthday party, or look how creative I was when things went wrong and how I turned it around. And to me, establishing those behaviors on the leadership side to let go and lead versus manage ⁓ to empower your teams and support and trust them. I mean, people come to work wanting to do a good job. No one wakes up in the morning and says, I can't wait to go in and just... Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: screw everything up today, right? We as managers and leaders create those ⁓ we can turn this around and really empower our teams and be great leaders and role models for them. And to me, that's one of the steps. The other things are, ⁓ too to list as far as ⁓ what leadership development look like? How do we create a leadership identity early? And I... Like I define leadership and management like this. If you walk into a Home Depot, I'll ask people, ⁓ a cashier at the point of sale a manager? And the answer is no. They're not, they're just a cashier. Can they be a leader? Absolutely, absolutely, right? So teaching people what it means to be a leader early and helping them create the right leadership identity I think is critical. Shawn Sundsvold: Absolutely. Kelly Sundsvold: Yes. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I think you mentioned there, you know, about like, it's not just a layer one problem, right? You're trying to solve the ⁓ problem. Like what is really causing the issue? Not so much, you know, because the problem is the problem, right? You have to look and diagnose at a deeper level of what is really the problem and why does this keep happening? Keith Meyerson: Agreed. I teach that in my root cause workshop and I symptoms from problems. And let's go back to the example I gave earlier. If I said to you, hey Sean, got 82 % turnover in my department. Could we agree that 82 % turnover is a problem? Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: ⁓ gosh, yeah. Keith Meyerson: No, it's not. I do that on purpose. It's a symptom. What's causing the turnover is the problem, right? ⁓ I think that's where people get hung up. They want to solve what they think is a problem and it's not the problem at all. And then we go into a root cause diagnostic ⁓ I'll give you my example. I have herniated discs, but I want go... Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Kelly Sundsvold: yeah. Keith Meyerson: lift weights and run. Okay. Well, the root cause is the herniated discs. I don't need to solve the root cause. I need to solve the symptoms which are it hurts when I try to lift. And I could do that in different ways like ibuprofen and ice or steroid injections or surgery, right? And think this is relevant in business because if someone says, hey, ⁓ we a new HRIS system, Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: because our data's bad or whatever, or we can't get the right reports out, don't always have the budget or the funds or the support to replace a whole new, you know, six-figure HRIS system. So we need to find workarounds. So I think it's important for us ⁓ responsible business professionals ⁓ to sit there and say, we have to fix the problem. No, we don't. We have to attain the goal. What was the goal? ⁓ need better reporting. We need better data. Well, you could do that through training managers to pull their own reports, cleaning up data through quarterly audits, hiring more headcount to do that. You don't need to change out the system. ⁓ I think that's important for me as I teach root cause analysis to say, look, ⁓ training may be a part of the intervention, ⁓ it's not the magic pill. And we don't need to always solve the problem. We need to identify the problem and separate it from the symptoms. ⁓ then we could... Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: create our SMART goals in our intervention plan and act accordingly. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: That's really good. Kind of shifting gears a little bit. just want to say, just pause for second here that I just want to say like, I appreciate you sharing all that. It's been really enlightening from the perspective of the root problem versus just the symptom. makes so much sense. And I think if you're listening and you're in a company that has similar issues, these are good wise nuggets to take away. but kind of shifting a little bit to your PhD because you have a lot of things on your plate. When I was, you know, working on your intro, I was thinking, ⁓ my goodness, this guy does everything. But you're pursuing your PhD while actively working, teaching ⁓ busy business owner. What's motivating you? Like what's the motivation for this season of learning for you? Keith Meyerson: You know, in field, we're supposed to be lifelong learners. And I think for me, it's where I'm looking at for my dissertation, it's understanding why we do the things that we do. The is isomorphism and neo-isomorphism and we don't need to get into that. But it's basically, ⁓ I'm to learn and I'm focusing on competency models. And when... Chief Human Resources officers decide that they need a new competency model or to update their competency model. What are all the variables that go into the decision making on when and how to do that? And it came up because over the past five to 10 years, I'm seeing this evolution in, ooh, data analytics. We need all our leaders to know data analytics. now it's, ooh, AI. We need to include a, and no one is changing their competency models because it's sunk costs. It takes so much effort to get Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: a competency model embedded in an organization for people to understand it, to have learning tied to it, to have performance tied to it, that once it's there, it's there. It's hard to change. I'm like, okay, well, what does it take and how do they do that? And I'm seeing a lot of CHROs that really look at, and again, this is going back to the theoretical side of it, well, what are other organizations doing? I'm like, no, that should not be the reason, right? For me, the education, the pursuit of education is really understanding what are the best ways to go about designing X. So I'm teaching master's levels courses in a human resources master's program. And right now I'm doing human performance and evaluations, so really performance management. And I love that conversation because performance management to me is an annual autopsy. It's a band-aid. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: It's replacing the fact that we've allowed leaders not to give coaching in the moment. If we were giving coaching in the moment, we wouldn't have to have a mid-year or an end-of-year review. To me, that's wrong. We should be coaching at the point of impact. Hey, you screwed up. Here's the situation. Here's the behavior I saw. Here's the impact it had. What are we going to do to fix it? Great. We've now course corrected at that moment versus looking back 11 months saying, Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Keith Meyerson: Hey, remember in January when you missed up the sales call? ⁓ it's, think the pursuit of the education ⁓ teaching at the same time and interacting with students that are in the field or wanna be in the field, ⁓ keeps me abreast ⁓ not just the theoretical aspect, but the practical application, okay? I challenge let me ask you guys. So you guys have been in the corporate world and you've got, Reviews what's been the scale is like a one to five like if you think through it is that like a normal right unsatisfactory satisfactory meets and then ⁓ ⁓ right five So gonna hold up my hand five What's the average rating that managers give? Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yep. Shawn Sundsvold: Exceptional is usually that, yeah. My guess is somewhere between three and a four. Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Like a three or four. Keith Meyerson: It's a three. And I'm not going to put my fingers down, but it's a three. average. And why is it average? Because it's ⁓ of conflict. I can't say that they're ⁓ I can't defend that they're higher, but I know it's time to... So everyone gives a three. I a six. I create a six Likert scale. I force managers to choose between a three and a four. I'm going to have that conversation, right? ⁓ Because... Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Interesting. Keith Meyerson: We only have so much merit and it has to be, you know, there's no more pay for performance. That's gone. Anyone says there's pay for performance is just still living in the 80s. We're getting between three and five percent increases. That's it. And if I'm working my tail off and Kelly's just doing what she needs to get by and she gets a three and I get a four percent, what has that done to me? I'm, you know what? I'm going to do it. Kelly's smart. Kelly Sundsvold: Right. Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Keith Meyerson: Kelly's just getting by for 1%. Why am going to bust my tail anymore? Performance management is broken. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. And I think that leads really well into like a coaching conversation, right? You brought it on, you talked about it just a little, a couple minutes ago, talking about coaching in the moment, right? As parents, we do that with kids, right? Like we see something and the minute we have a chance to do it, ideally we take our kids aside and go, hey, you know, here's what happened, walk me through what was going on in that moment and let's figure out how to do it better the next time, right? ⁓ When you talk about high-performance leaders, They a lot of times get that one-on-one coaching in the moment because someone is able to, have the bandwidth to spend a little bit more time with that high-level leader. ⁓ what's something that those high-level leaders tend to wrestle with behind the scenes that most people don't expect? Keith Meyerson: think the issue at any level with coaching and with leadership is, again, have not clearly defined what it means to be a leader. People don't see leadership as their first responsibility is to develop their people. ⁓ see their first responsibility as obtaining the metrics of their area. What they fail to understand is that's a lagging metric. Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. Keith Meyerson: Develop their people if they support their people if they coach their people they're gonna get their numbers They're investing their time in the wrong area and I had this conversation a leader with a CEO ⁓ a national well-known high-end organization ⁓ said to me We're too busy when we have one-on-ones we have to talk about the numbers and my response was and how do you expect those numbers to change and In he had his ⁓ crap look on his face like Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: So leaders, it's ⁓ you need to set aside the time to invest in the development of your people, period. Because if you don't, no one else will. And they'll find it elsewhere. Like they'll go elsewhere. People want to be developed. They want to grow. They want to be stretched. They want to be recognized. They want to feel valued. And if leaders aren't spending time investing in their people, they're going to have their people or they're not going to meet their metrics. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. I'm, you know, and let's dig into that a little more of like, what does that do to the culture of an organization? Right. When someone is willing to, spend that extra couple of minutes and actually coach the individual versus coach the metrics. Like how does that change culture? Keith Meyerson: Well, it depends upon what the culture is what the culture you want to have. I culture is going to happen by omission or intentional. know, culture is defined as the rites, the rituals and stories of an organization. It's not the posters on the wall. Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. Keith Meyerson: It's how do you take those posters and turn them into behaviors? ⁓ can get the culture you want, but you have to be intentional about it. You have to provide the training. You have to have the accountability and performance management. ⁓ know, when I made the example earlier about ⁓ up paper off the floor, that was a personal example. When I was at Topgolf Day 2, woman that worked for me took me to one of the venues and we were supposed to go to what's called the DO office. It's the director of operations. It's the basically... the manager of the site. Took us 15 minutes to get through the restaurant, which wasn't open, but there were napkins on the floor, straw paper on the floor, chairs that weren't pushed in, silverware that was laying around, and she started cleaning up. So of course, I'm not gonna stand there like an idiot. I'm like, oh, I guess this is what we do, right? She's modeling the behavior. So I'm cleaning up afterwards. And later I asked her, I said, we have housekeeping, why did you do that? And her response was, teamwork is one of our values, it's not just a poster on the wall. Why would I walk by and allow that to happen when I could actually help out a teammate? then I drink the Kool-Aid in every organization I'm associated with, so the next day I'm in the men's room picking up paper off the floor because ⁓ what we do here. ⁓ ⁓ Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: Culture has to be very, very, very intentional and we have to model those behaviors. I'll give you an opposite example and I can't name the organization. high-end retailer based in Dallas who was bought out by another company who just went bankrupt. Very easy to connect those dots. the buying offices were modeling the behaviors ⁓ of threats and intimidation and it became accepted in part of the culture. ⁓ As example, ⁓ if they didn't like what a junior buyer was doing, they literally throw a across the room at them and that was accepted behavior. So now what are you doing? What are you doing? You're teaching those junior employees that Kelly Sundsvold: What? Keith Meyerson: It doesn't matter what we teach you from a cultural perspective, a values perspective, a performance management, now demonstrating that the acceptable behaviors are these negative behaviors. And that, no matter what, that's what it means to be a leader here at our organization. again, culture going to happen. It can either happen intentionally ⁓ or going to happen in a vacuum and you're probably not going to Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, gosh, throwing staplers. Like, ⁓ man. So you're obviously in school and so you're learning a lot, but I get the impression that you're kind of a lifelong learner anyways and if there's something that kind of you're curious about, you kind of dive in. What's one thing you're learning right now, maybe be part of your dissertation, maybe it's something you're learning on your own, that is your perspective? Keith Meyerson: ⁓ In creating the coursework for the class I'm teaching, getting a little more information about performance management, performance reviews based ⁓ ⁓ versus other organizations do. ⁓ And a huge disparity between what organizations good performance management is. And I'm talking about traditional, like mid-year, end of year, right? Not what I think. ⁓ But there's a huge between ⁓ and what research is showing about the frequency of reviews and conversations because there's a sweet spot of ⁓ waiting long versus doing it all of the time, right? It's not going to have the impact because performance management tied to merit. So how do you keep that carrot dangling and make that impactful? Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: when is paying an annual bonus enough? not according to the research. So ⁓ really challenging. Like if I'm locked into doing traditional performance management, which I hope I won't be, ⁓ know, in some organization that I can help, how can I help them benefit from the research? So they're actually basing their decisions on peer scholarly work versus, Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Keith Meyerson: It's kind of what everyone else does. So isn't that the right thing to do? So I think that's really the thing that's most in my brain right now as far as what I'm learning. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. Awesome. So we've spent a lot of time talking about your, your endeavors, your career, all the things you're learning, you know, being in the PhD program right now and getting that done. What's next for you, right? Like I, know, what, what, what is this all kind of leading up towards? Is there some kind of next big step you're looking at? Keith Meyerson: I'm in the process of developing a training module, an e-learning module that fits with what we're talking about, but does not currently exist anywhere, anywhere. ⁓ And a course I designed years ago ⁓ when was working at ⁓ the retailer. And when went to develop a leadership program, maybe a year or two ago for another organization, I went out to all the vendors and said, know what, done this before, but I don't want to teach it. I just need a course. No one has it. No one's built it. And so necessary. ⁓ So kind of working with some vendors now to understand what the costs are going to be ⁓ because I'm asking to be done in the module ⁓ is a assessment. So there's different modules on the topic I'm talking about and each module needs to be iterative to provide a final assessment so people understand about their skill or interest ⁓ the context of what we're talking about here. ⁓ the vendors like, ⁓ my God, we've never had to do this. This is so unique and so challenging. We've never done that. ⁓ I'm kind of ⁓ in infancy of discovery for but I'm. hoping sometime this year I could actually get that out to the market because I think it's something that I would use and I think it's something that every organization can benefit from in this space. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow, that's awesome. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Well, Keith, as we wrap this up, of all, thank you for your and your experience. You you've had a long ⁓ career ⁓ you're some great things in a variety of different niches and industries. And ⁓ so I appreciate your thoughts that you have shared with us and our listeners. How can people get ahold of you? What would be the best way? Keith Meyerson: ⁓ I have a website is camconsultinggroup.com. ⁓ also on LinkedIn and email specifically is keith.meyerson, ⁓ if spell the name right. So I would say look down there because people usually forget a name, right? ⁓ It's at camconsultinggroup.com. But yeah, we provide a host of services including coaching is what we've talked about. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Keith Meyerson: we do a lot of workshops and ⁓ got a couple projects that ⁓ working on right now, team building for the C-suite of a couple organizations as well as ⁓ for hypo talent as well as underperforming talent. and the dysfunctions, building is part of what we do. ⁓ But I think most, one of the most things that I like to do is just. help organizations from a strategic standpoint? Do they even have a learning or talent strategy? What should that be? What are their outcomes and helping them think through that? So yeah, we love to have those conversations. Kelly Sundsvold: Awesome. Well, I appreciate it, the time ⁓ looking forward to staying connected with you. think you just, have a neat story and you're, you have a lot of, a lot of good ideas. So definitely reach out to Keith if you're ⁓ interested in more and the coaching and learning development. ⁓ And ⁓ you. Keith Meyerson: Thank you. Kelly and Sean, this was great. I appreciate the opportunity. Great questions. Shawn Sundsvold: Thanks Keith.