Latest / Thick No More / Worth ≠ Grades | Katherine Perry on Dyslexia, Shame & Reclaiming Identity

Transcript

Worth ≠ Grades | Katherine Perry on Dyslexia, Shame & Reclaiming Identity · Thick No More

0:00
Hey everyone, welcome to Think No More.
0:02
So it's a bit of a sad day because today is the final
0:06
episode. However, I'm thrilled to be
0:09
joined by someone who's not only lived the journey of dyslexia,
0:13
but has also gone to lead and shape real change.
0:16
Tim Perry is, in my eyes, a dynamic leader, a strategist, an
0:21
advocate. His career spans global levels.
0:25
She's best known, in my opinion, again for her role as CEO of
0:31
BATA, which is the British Assistive Technology
0:33
Association, where she drove forward vile conversations
0:36
around accessibility and inclusion.
0:38
Catherine's work has always been about amplifying voices,
0:41
building partnerships and breaking down barriers for those
0:46
that are too often overlooked. Behind her professional
0:49
achievements, Catherine has a personal story of growing up
0:54
with differences, navigating labels like we all have, and
0:58
transforming that experience into strength and leadership.
1:01
Today, we're going to be talking about school years, challenges,
1:04
impacts of home life and tools, and what truly changes outcomes
1:09
for neurodiverse people. Catherine, for me, who's someone
1:12
who embodies what it means to go from Sigma to strength.
1:16
And I couldn't think of a better guest to close season 1.
1:18
So hello Catherine, how are you? I'm well, thanks.
1:22
After that intro, I feel brilliant.
1:23
Thank you. It's all true.
1:25
I've, I've did loads of reading and I always try and you know, I
1:29
know, obviously I know you anyway, but I always try to go a
1:32
bit deeper than what I know. And yeah, it's all true.
1:35
And I think what you've achieved is unbelievable.
1:38
Hopefully my guests will get to hear some of that.
1:40
Thank you. So I'm sure you know what the
1:42
first question is. Everybody does.
1:44
So we fling open the door and you walk in and the same tune
1:48
plays every time. So come on, tell me, what's your
1:50
song and why? I had to give this some thought
1:52
actually, because there were a few that that popped up. 1 was
1:56
My Way by Frank Sinatra, a good old one, but I landed somewhere
2:00
else which was This is Me from The Greatest Showman sung.
2:04
By the great Yeah, that's a. Great.
2:06
Song. And I think it's, it's very
2:10
powerful. All the lyrics are relevant, I
2:12
think to anybody that's sitting, you know, come up against
2:15
difficulties in the past. They say, yeah, that's my song.
2:19
Yeah, Beautiful song. You know, everybody, everybody
2:23
that's been on this podcast so far, like the rest of the things
2:28
that I asked, they kind of breeze through it and they go,
2:31
yeah, you know, it gets emotional sometimes.
2:33
We share a few tears, but the the the opening question of the
2:37
music is the one that ever goes well.
2:39
I first thought about, then I changed my mind and I changed my
2:42
mind again. And yeah, so.
2:43
Yeah. Right.
2:44
So don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, it was, it's I
2:47
watched it as part of the whole film and obviously the the story
2:50
is really important about people that are different and accepting
2:54
differences. But actually I think, yeah,
2:55
probably it's more of a a personal theme tune about
3:01
claiming here we are as people and being OK with that probably.
3:04
So yeah, I keep that one. Great choice.
3:07
Great choice. OK, So what I like to do is I
3:11
like to to take people back a bit because I think it's really
3:14
important that all the people that listen realize that
3:18
everyone that comes on this podcast has got a story and it
3:21
started somewhere. And I think what I'd like to ask
3:25
you to sort of start this sort of conversation going is when
3:30
you went to school, was there a point where you started to feel
3:33
different at school? Did other people notice your
3:35
struggles? Tell me a bit about school life.
3:38
Yeah, it gave some thought to that idea actually.
3:41
And I think it's quite hard to remember actually, I think as a
3:47
as a younger child, you know, starting school, I started
3:50
school quite early. I was 4, so I was a bit younger
3:52
than my peers, and I had a very late summer birthday as well.
3:57
I think in general, I think I found school OK.
4:01
I don't remember really struggling until I was probably
4:04
a bit older, around six or seven.
4:07
And I suppose that for a lot of children, that's around the age
4:09
that you start understanding a bit more about the dynamics
4:14
between people and you start, you know, becoming a person in
4:18
your own right established in school.
4:21
I think clearly there were conversations at school about
4:25
how I was doing because there were conversations between my
4:29
parents and school and specifically around whether or
4:33
not they should hold me back a year.
4:35
Not that I was aware of that at the time, but clearly people
4:38
were noticing because I know that story now.
4:40
And I think I was probably, yeah, I would say around six, I
4:45
think where I started feeling a bit that I, the sense of I
4:50
wasn't quite getting something right.
4:53
It's probably what that started with.
4:54
And I think I've mentioned to you in other conversations as
4:58
well that, you know, I was aware of the the crosses and the big
5:01
red crosses on the page and wanting to try to avoid that.
5:05
So even at that early age, I think I was, when I think back,
5:08
I can see, OK, I was, I was establishing coping strategies
5:11
for that and masking strategies for that.
5:13
So how do I hide that I'm, you know, I'm struggling or, you
5:20
know, I'm not. I'm like everyone else.
5:23
That's kind of the earliest memories, I think.
5:24
Yeah. And those those those moments as
5:29
well, I dare say you've been thinking back while this and it
5:33
does become quite thought provoking.
5:35
But those kind of memories to me are the ones I remember
5:38
distinctly you mentioned about the crosses and the Marks and
5:41
the red pen through those are the things that really it almost
5:45
becomes more of AI absolutely need to avoid those red lines
5:51
through my work and those, you know, as a child, it can it can
5:56
punish you sometimes because it can just become it can really
5:59
bear down on you so much trying to avoid, you know, what is the
6:04
inevitable really, You know, you know, you know it now and I know
6:07
it now that yeah, I I was going to get the crosses and I was
6:11
going to get the lines from my work.
6:12
But as a child, you're, you're not really aware of that, are
6:15
you at? The time.
6:15
No, I think, and I think I, you know, I think really that's
6:20
about shame, isn't it? About trying to avoid feeling
6:23
ashamed that you got something wrong.
6:26
And I think in the early days, you know, 876 years old, I don't
6:32
know that it was for me personally, so much about
6:35
avoiding shame as feeling confused by what was happening
6:40
around me. And I think, you know, teachers
6:45
would behave a certain way. I mean, I remember on one
6:47
occasion actually, that I was writing, we had to write a
6:52
paragraph. I think I was 8 7/8 had to write
6:55
a paragraph about a shadow. So we were learning about
6:58
shadows and it was a paragraph. And my teacher at the time, she
7:02
made me write that so many times.
7:05
And the reason she said was because it wasn't neat enough.
7:09
And this was a teacher that I know my parents had had issues
7:15
with in believing that dyslexia was a thing.
7:17
So what was interesting about your question was when did I
7:20
feel different? I don't.
7:22
When I was younger, I think I just felt like a kid and I was
7:25
just playing and I was just at school.
7:27
And I think as I got older and the adults around me started
7:32
creating either punishments or narratives around what I was
7:39
actually doing, that was the harmful bit because, you know, I
7:43
was only aware to some degree that I wasn't achieving at that
7:47
point as much as my peers. It wasn't I wasn't really,
7:50
really, really cognizant of it until I got, you know, older
7:55
until I was more aware. I would say 8 to 10, you start
7:58
developing that and then on into high school when obviously
8:00
you're developing a different rate.
8:03
But it was, you know, for me hearing, hearing, you know, from
8:09
my parents that teachers had denied dyslexia, that I was
8:13
stupid or that I wasn't going to go anywhere in life.
8:19
Now, I don't know if those things were actually said or
8:22
not, but I, I can imagine resistance about dyslexia at the
8:28
time. I mean, we're talking like early
8:30
mid 90s. It takes a lot for a teacher to
8:33
say that a child is never going anywhere in life, you know?
8:37
Yeah, though I don't know. It's a.
8:38
Political Assessment. Yeah, yeah.
8:40
And I, and I don't know if that was really sad or or not sad,
8:43
but I, I remember hearing that anyway.
8:45
And I think that affects you more than.
8:48
Yeah, I know. No.
8:49
More than the marks or anything like that, yeah.
8:52
Yeah, yeah. I'm going to share something
8:54
with you that I, I don't think I've told one other person, I
8:59
believe, but when I, when I left primary school, I remember it
9:04
was like a white docket type book booklet.
9:09
And every, every teacher that I'd had put a little note in
9:13
there and signed it, you know, and the vast majority of them
9:17
kind of were, oh, you know, good luck at high school.
9:19
And it got to the end, which was the headmistress.
9:24
And she actually plot. And I've asked my mom because my
9:28
mom keeps everything in a, in a, in like a trunk.
9:31
And I've asked mom, she's still got the trunk for me to dig
9:33
through and try and find it. But the head, the headmistress
9:36
actually wrote, I'm glad this child is leaving this school.
9:40
Yeah. I mean, a brutal, brutal
9:42
assessment. And yeah, I get everything you
9:45
just said. And it, you know, you look back
9:48
now and you think about what kids, kids have been through and
9:51
gone through and, you know, there's still people that still
9:54
hide it because they still don't want to talk about it.
9:56
They might be in a workplace, not too nervous to bring it up.
9:59
And they know something's not right, you know.
10:02
Yeah. I mean school life, it's.
10:04
Yeah, it can be. Really.
10:06
Yeah, terrible. I mean, yeah, it really is.
10:08
I mean, pray to God that that things start to change and gets
10:13
better over the years as we get older, you know, but it's still,
10:16
there's still people that are really struggling.
10:18
But when your, your, your dyslexia, when was, when was you
10:23
assessed? What kind of support did you
10:26
receive, you know, and I guess how did it affect you moving
10:30
forward after that? What changes?
10:32
Did it affect your confidence moving forward or anything?
10:35
Yeah, because I was assessed early actually because my my
10:39
dad, I was also dyslexic. So my results came or I was
10:44
tested at seven years and nine months and I was trying to
10:47
remember more about it. And actually I think what I
10:51
don't remember is pretty important as much as I do.
10:53
So what I remember is going to a nice house and I met a nice
10:57
lady. She was wearing a skirt and like
10:59
a tweed jacket. And I ran there sitting down in
11:02
a quite a dark room and she had a flip chart and she was talking
11:06
to me and playing with me and showing me pictures.
11:10
And I think one of the things I do remember is that she at some
11:15
point said, my gosh, Catherine, you just finished a test for a
11:18
15 year old. Did you know that?
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And I, I mean, of course I didn't know that.
11:24
I didn't know. And I was like, really.
11:26
And she said, yeah, you did really well.
11:28
You did. I can't even test you any
11:30
higher. Like that's as high as I can go.
11:32
And, and I, I think what was striking when I was thinking
11:37
about it was the results paper, which I obviously I saw as an
11:42
adult said, you know, it gave my IQ and it gave, you know, they
11:47
break it down into the different areas and kind of how well
11:49
you've been tested, sorry, how well you'd performed against
11:53
certain tests. And very, very clearly there was
11:56
an issue with numbers and with reading and letters and pretty
12:02
much everything else was very high.
12:05
But what I don't remember was struggling.
12:09
So isn't that interesting? I don't remember getting things
12:12
wrong. I don't remember not doing well.
12:16
And I really. Yeah.
12:18
But because that's such a that's something that, you know, given
12:21
that I was being tested, I don't remember her saying he got that
12:26
wrong or being aware even that I you.
12:29
Remember the you remember the you remember the statement
12:32
almost like a confidence booster to a certain degree, rather than
12:36
how traumatic that is to sit there and be put in a test
12:39
situation and. Yeah, so I, I remember that, you
12:43
know, she was complimentary that I did really well and that she
12:46
was shocked and that that I was supposed to feel happy about
12:49
that. You know, that was good.
12:50
I did good, you know, and then I think, you know, I also valued,
12:56
I think somebody giving me attention is what I can remember
12:59
is someone spending time with me and, you know, getting to know
13:03
me and asking questions and that kind of thing.
13:07
And I think that the dyslexic experience for a lot of kids,
13:10
you know, we talk about the shame a lot, but it's very
13:12
lonely. Like it can be very lonely.
13:15
And I and I can remember that. I can remember that she spent
13:19
time with me. And so, you know, it definitely
13:23
wasn't a bad experience. I also don't know how universal
13:26
of an experience that is. So I, you know, I couldn't say
13:29
that that that is how it works now or anything like that.
13:32
But I, I do that little paper that I got from her afterwards,
13:36
which has the diagnosis. And it's, it's so interesting to
13:39
see somebody else's perception of you.
13:42
And it was a much more balanced picture, you know, then what I
13:47
can remember feeling like as well.
13:50
So, yeah. And then you asked about tools
13:52
and things. Interestingly, my parents bought
13:57
a computer and I remembered that they told me that to take out a
14:00
£2000 loan to get a computer. So it was right.
14:03
Wow. 1995 You know we had a. Lot of money, a lot of money.
14:08
Back, yeah, a lot of money. And it was supposed to help me
14:11
write. And I got a cheater.
14:14
And I remember being given pencil grips and also being told
14:19
to write with my right hands, try to right hands.
14:23
And my tutor, I saw her every Saturday for an hour.
14:26
Her name was Mary. And she was really helpful in a
14:29
lot of ways. But she, you know, my parents
14:32
said to me at some point, you know, you don't focus.
14:34
And Mary says you're unteachable.
14:38
And as an adult, I remember saying to my parents, like,
14:42
don't you think? And actually, just to go back to
14:45
something you said about the note from your headmistress, and
14:49
it's a bit the same that I, you know, as an adult now with more
14:53
experience and especially working in the disability field
14:55
for so long, I do feel that these are, these are adults
14:59
making assessments of children. I don't know as an adult that I
15:02
would ever say to a child these things.
15:04
I don't think that as a adult that I could ever fathom saying
15:08
this to a child. And so I kind of, you know, I
15:12
feel like the assessments of us as children need to, we need to
15:20
understand that these were assessments by people that had
15:23
limitations, they were not assessing us and, and I think
15:27
that. I I.
15:29
Agree. Yeah.
15:29
And it's so hard because that becomes our inner, you know, our
15:33
inner dialogue. But I wasn't unteachable.
15:36
Her methods were limited, and that's the reality.
15:39
I wasn't unteachable, clearly. No, no.
15:43
No, you know, I think it. These things, these they were
15:47
annoying thing about it. You've just highlighted
15:50
something that it's a memory that sticks with you.
15:53
That is the memory that sticks with me.
15:55
My mum reading out to me. Oh, this is what the
15:57
headmistress has said about you. And, and you know, we were
16:01
talking the 90s with you. We're talking 70s and 80s with
16:05
me. And I kind of feel, I really
16:09
hope, I really hope if me and you were talking 10 years time
16:12
that this is not a conversation that we're going to be having in
16:14
10 years time, you know, and we're talking about the 2000s
16:18
and then the 2000 and 20s hope. And listen, you're the same as
16:23
me. You know, a lot of people in the
16:24
industry now I know that conversations are different and
16:27
that's great. But it is, it is horrible that
16:31
these things stick with you, these labels and these words and
16:35
these things that are said to you and how it can affect you
16:38
and yeah. It does have.
16:39
A Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.
16:41
I want to take you somewhere now and listen, if if you if you
16:44
don't want to go there and that's fine.
16:46
You mentioned a while ago about about your parents.
16:48
And when we spoke before you, you talked to me a little bit
16:51
about, you know, about your dad. You mentioned your dad was
16:56
dyslexic and you said kind of said, I remember at the time you
16:59
mentioned that, you know, you know, harmless.
17:02
It's being being at home was hard growing up kind of with
17:05
some messages. And tell me a little bit about
17:09
how that shaped, I guess you personally and dyslexia with
17:13
your own struggles and tell me if you want to go.
17:15
Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.
17:17
I mean, my dad, you know, if he was sat next to me, he would, he
17:21
would say, you know, that that that he was dyslexic growing up
17:25
but didn't know it. He spoke to somebody that was
17:30
aware of these things, but he was already, you know, in his
17:34
late 30s, early 40s by that then.
17:37
That's my understanding anyway. He, I think, came from a family
17:42
that's achieved a lot and very much valued kind of values
17:48
still, you know, education and thinking and, you know, sees,
17:52
you know, achievements as part of that, professional
17:55
achievements as part of that. And I think that what was
17:58
difficult, you know, my dad was born in the very early 50s.
18:02
Again, you know, you've just mentioned in the 70s and 80s.
18:04
I mean, the 50s were a very different time again.
18:08
And I, I think that for any child that has to be very
18:13
difficult. My dad achieved an awful lot in
18:16
his career. He, he did amazing things and in
18:19
the end was, you know, a commercial airline pilot.
18:21
But I think one of the things that I think would also be fair
18:24
to say is that like most, you know, well, most, I don't have a
18:28
stat in front of me, but I do know that particularly boys with
18:32
dyslexia live with higher levels of frustration and anger in
18:36
general compared to the female counterparts.
18:40
And I think that was also true for my dad's.
18:42
He, he's very frustrated. He got a lot of harsh criticism.
18:46
And I think that as an adult that that translated into, you
18:50
know, sometimes being very angry.
18:52
And I think when it comes down to his career, he chose careers
18:57
that were very challenging for a dyslexic person.
19:01
Pharmacy he chose to work. I've seen flying a lot of that
19:06
is science and numbers and calculations.
19:08
There's no one in trouble that there is no one that can say he
19:12
he he didn't achieve well. But I do think it's fair to say
19:17
that, you know, there are echoes of that, you know, the criticism
19:22
of the past that still live there.
19:27
And I think as a child kind of growing up in an environment
19:30
where he was doing his commercial airline training, I
19:34
think he worked immensely hard to a tremendous personal cost
19:41
and not just to him personally, but to everybody.
19:45
And I, I think what you know, beyond dyslexia, which I think
19:50
you know, growing up in environments where dyslexia is
19:53
not well understood, is its own trauma alone, but having a place
20:01
at home, I think where. You had someone that was, you
20:05
know, quite frustrated, very focused on achieving.
20:10
I mean, if you would look at his exam results, he'd be amazed.
20:14
It's like 9899 hundreds, you know, all the way through.
20:18
He pushed himself to the absolute limit to achieve this
20:23
thing. And, you know, he achieves an
20:26
awful lot of his dreams. But I think what that translated
20:29
to for me was be good. It was, you know, be good enough
20:34
do as well as you can as well as you can means push yourself to
20:38
the absolute NTH degree to to make sure that you, you do your
20:44
best. We learned through role models
20:47
as children, of course. And what I saw was someone who
20:51
who pushed themselves that hard. It was very normalized, I think.
20:55
And then, I think, you know, as a, as a child growing up with
20:59
any parent that might be struggling in, in a variety of
21:03
different ways, you have to cope with the emotional roller
21:07
coaster that's happening at home.
21:08
And that has consequences. And for me, I was very anxious.
21:12
I think as well, just specifically around dyslexia
21:16
when I got older, I think there were a lot of narratives that
21:19
were like, you know, I achieved anyway, or I'm trying to think
21:23
how the right way to say it, but I think it was much like what I
21:26
didn't need any help. So my achievement means more
21:29
because I'm dyslexic. And I think in the end of the
21:32
day, what I learned is that the world doesn't really care that
21:36
much that you're dyslexic. They care what you achieved in
21:39
the exam or they achieved. You know, they don't care.
21:43
And so if you, if you, if you go and get help for your dyslexia
21:47
and you get extra time or you get tools or you know someone, a
21:51
coach or someone that can help you 3 days things.
21:54
What's on the paper is on the paper.
21:58
And I think the only difference is how much stress and struggle
22:03
and burden we as people with disabilities are going to endure
22:08
to achieve the same thing. And I think we should have to
22:11
endure a bit less, feel that we have to endure a bit less, yeah.
22:16
I agree. And you go through so much, so
22:20
much pain and anguish and, and used word anxiety through a
22:24
childhood into adolescence and you carry it.
22:27
You do carry it. And you that statement, you just
22:30
said that, you know, people don't care.
22:33
You know, it's, it's yeah, it's just a piece of paper.
22:36
You sit in an exam, ring me, do an exam.
22:38
And yeah, there's no, there's no.
22:40
I spoke to a gentleman last week called Bernie who who grew up
22:44
with epilepsy. And I said to him, I said
22:46
there's no physical mark on your head.
22:48
There's nothing that says, hey, I'm epileptic.
22:50
You know, I've got like a tattoo on your forehead says I'm
22:51
dyslexic or anything. No one looks at you and they
22:54
don't know who you are. They're just like this.
22:56
They're not bothered. It's just a score.
22:59
You know? I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm
23:01
going to take two things to you now.
23:03
And I'd love to take credit for this, but unfortunately I can't
23:06
when I write, write my own notes.
23:08
I can hardly read my own writing.
23:09
So what I do is I use a recorder when I was speaking to you and I
23:13
get it to read it back to me. So you said this to me when we
23:17
spoke some time ago. You said hurt people hurt
23:22
people. So my question to you is, how do
23:26
you think an unhealed dyslexic shame in one generation can
23:30
affect the next? I mean, and how, how do we break
23:34
that cycle? Yeah, big question, isn't it?
23:38
And I think, I don't know that I have a universal answer for
23:41
that, but I I stand by that sentiment.
23:45
I think hurt people do hurt people unless, unless they do
23:49
something about it. And I think that for a lot of
23:52
dyslexic people, we grow up with this structure.
23:55
We get something wrong or we get something right.
23:57
And when we get something wrong, it doesn't just mean we made a
23:59
mistake. It means that we're not
24:01
worthwhile for we don't deserve a place or we don't matter.
24:06
Or, you know, there's, there's a list of them.
24:07
We all know what they are, you know, And I think that the
24:11
reality is we should not be avoiding pain about this.
24:19
And the reality is when something abusive happens to you
24:23
in an educational setting or something happens to you like
24:27
you're bullied by a teacher. And undoubtedly, for example,
24:30
what was written in your book, unacceptable.
24:33
What my teacher did to me at school with the shadow thing,
24:36
unacceptable. The responsibility for those
24:39
actions need to be, we need to take it from within ourselves as
24:42
it says something about us and we need to give that back to the
24:47
people that gave it to us. It's not ours, doesn't belong to
24:50
us. And I genuinely believe the
24:54
first thing that we can do is connect to with our community,
24:57
listen to stories, understand that we do have a voice.
24:59
I mean, I didn't know Jay, for a very long time that I was even
25:04
part of a community or that there was space for me to talk
25:07
about these things or that people would get me and I
25:10
wouldn't have to explain or justify or worry afterwards that
25:14
I'd said too much. But you know, we, we live by
25:17
the, the opinion of others because we were always wanting
25:19
to achieve, to please or to be enough.
25:23
And we have to put, we just have to find ways of putting that
25:26
down. And if that's therapy or if
25:28
that's through connecting to community or telling a story, we
25:33
need to not stay stuck in the retelling and the retelling of
25:38
our trauma. I've done that too.
25:41
I do that sometimes. Still, I find it beneficial to
25:45
say this is what happened to me. But I think I've grown up around
25:49
people that stay stuck there. And it can also have negative
25:53
consequences and I guess our challenges.
25:57
We are not responsible for what happened to us or around us, but
26:00
we are responsible for what we're going to do with it.
26:02
Now, I don't think 7 year old me needs to be terrified anymore of
26:09
getting something wrong. You know, I think she needs to
26:12
know that there's a space that's OK, She can just play, it's
26:15
fine. Don't worry about the test.
26:16
And I, you know, you've mentioned circumstances with you
26:19
too. And I think we just need to tell
26:22
it without meaning to get too psychobabbly about it.
26:25
But you know, I do think we need to work on trying to tell
26:28
ourselves there are smaller versions of ourselves that, you
26:30
know, it's OK to get things wrong sometimes and it's OK to
26:36
fail and it's OK to to not be the best and it's OK.
26:41
And there is, there is of still still a place for you, even if
26:47
you know you're you're not not meeting X persons expectations.
26:51
But yeah, for every person that journey is different I think,
26:55
but it's an important part I think of, of breaking the cycle
26:58
like you said. Yeah, I love the fact that you
27:01
talked about community and you didn't know there was a
27:03
community. And, you know, and, and well,
27:06
I've realized since doing this, I, I, someone told me to do this
27:09
a long, long time ago. And I, I, I was too nervous to
27:12
do it. I'm too nervous to do it because
27:14
I don't remember things. I lose track really easy and you
27:17
know, and try and remember and pull back on people's answers to
27:22
questions. But since I've done this and
27:25
been doing this and been doing this for weeks now, I realize
27:29
what a lovely place it is. And I think the people, the
27:33
things you've said there, I, what I've realized is the
27:36
biggest, the biggest core group of listeners I get and are
27:42
actually parents. There are, there are some tech
27:46
leaders that listen and there are some teachers that listen as
27:48
well through, through me knowing them.
27:50
But the biggest core group are parents.
27:51
And I think some of the parents are scared.
27:54
Some of the parents are nervous. Some of the parents don't
27:56
understand. Some of the parents reach out
27:58
and go, Hey, could you put me in touch this person to OK for
28:01
reach out to them. And I'd like to think that both
28:05
you and I, by doing this or making people realize that, hey,
28:08
it's OK to be in this community. Welcome to this community.
28:11
We share our thoughts, we're here, we'll talk to you about
28:14
it. And it's a journey you've got to
28:16
go on, whether it's a journey your daughter or son has to go
28:19
on their own, but you need to be there.
28:21
And when they need you, you're there for them.
28:24
But at some point in what you've just said, you're exactly right.
28:28
You do realize there is a community there for you and
28:31
you're not on your own. And although there's nothing
28:33
stamped on your forehead to say how you're dyslexic or how
28:36
you've got this calculator or whatever it might be, it doesn't
28:39
matter because there's, there's lots of people like us and we're
28:43
all prepared to share. We're all prepared to help.
28:46
And hopefully, you know, you're in tech, you know, I'm in tech
28:51
as well. We've seen, we've seen, seen the
28:53
technology that's starting to come through.
28:55
We've seen, you know, how people are all viewing us as
28:59
neurodivergence, if you like and are trying to support us with
29:02
technology. There's something you said last
29:04
time we spoke as well. You said that you want to push
29:07
back on the idea, give tools and we're fine.
29:10
So to tell me, and this is a difficult 1, so if you can't
29:14
answer this, it's fine. But I guess I'd love you to kind
29:17
of nail down to me if you can, either it be school or the
29:21
workplace. Could you give me something
29:23
concrete that you know, name one concrete change that maybe a
29:30
school or workplace could do and if you could give me it, tell me
29:33
what it would be for that change.
29:35
It would be. I think I'm, I'm definitely not
29:38
an expert in, you know, workplace or in education, but
29:43
I, I think what sometimes gets overlooked is the, is the
29:47
benefit of having non-toxic and kind environment because, you
29:53
know, I was given tools, I didn't use them, I didn't know
29:55
how to use them. I didn't know why I was using
29:57
them. And I can be given extra time
30:00
and more instructions. But if I still feel that I'm
30:03
going to go and be misunderstood or mischaracterized or that I
30:07
will be penalized for every mistake I make, regardless of
30:10
how hard I try or you mentioned not being able to remember.
30:13
And that's something that happens for me as well that I
30:17
can just, I know I knew it. I know that I learned it.
30:21
And I, I don't know where it's there.
30:24
It's not there anymore. And it's like, you know, water
30:29
through your hands. And to understand what it would
30:32
have taken for me in education, I didn't necessarily need loads
30:36
of tools. Maybe that would have been
30:38
better to have had tools. What I really would have loved
30:43
is a teacher that would have maybe come to me and said, do
30:46
you understand? Can I help you?
30:49
Is there anything else without embarrassing me?
30:52
And I think the role of humiliation and embarrassment is
30:57
so important in education. It literally dictates whether a
31:00
child will speak or not speak. And in the case of workplace,
31:05
obviously there are bigger consequences, like losing a job,
31:08
for example underperformance. Yeah, people, people hide it.
31:15
People still, people still sit there.
31:16
And hide it. That's completely human.
31:19
I mean, who wouldn't hide it? You know?
31:21
I Yeah, you know. Exactly if it's.
31:23
That's not the weird bit. The weird fit.
31:26
The weird the weird bit is that, you know, despite the fact that
31:29
we know these things exist, we still haven't worked out how to
31:32
have working environments universally where people like us
31:37
and other disabled people can go and not just perform.
31:41
But if you have to fight for your assistive technology and
31:44
you feel like everything is against you and you feel like
31:47
people don't understand you or treat you differently.
31:49
I mean, I have remember one workplace where I least I was
31:53
getting so down about the corrections that I was getting,
31:56
you know, emails and emails every day when I open my
31:59
computer of things in highlighted and read and capital
32:01
letters. Are you got this wrong, you
32:03
know, and saying I, I don't want to work like this anymore?
32:07
My manager at the time saying, yes, well, you should have
32:11
disclosed that you would dyslexic in the interview and
32:13
you couldn't do the job. And it's not that I can't do the
32:16
job. You know, it's that the way I
32:20
feel when I come to the office is that I'm, I'm crap at this
32:25
and you don't see any value in me.
32:27
And who wants to work for a company where you feel
32:32
unappreciated, undervalued, not safe at work to discuss things?
32:38
And, you know, I, I feel like the power of people is really
32:43
important. And it's sometimes not just, I
32:45
mean, an assistive technology. Of course, we talk about
32:47
trainers and people as trainers, but I think we need more allies
32:51
to just, even if people don't really even understand, to just
32:55
give people space to explain. Listen, you know, can we create
33:01
an environment where there are more open conversations where
33:05
there's, you know, we can, we can make people feel safer to do
33:09
better. And I think that that's
33:10
something that's overlooked sometimes.
33:11
Yeah, and I totally agree. Do you remember as well?
33:16
Do you remember when we talked he's mentioned about you've
33:21
already actually you brought it up slightly, you said about
33:24
anxiety. And when we spoke last time you
33:27
said that. Oh yeah, you said you read quite
33:30
blase about these things. Oh yeah, actually over prepping
33:34
for me makes it worse, you know, you know, So tell me and tell
33:41
people listening because this should be really, really good
33:44
for because I'm actually curious about this myself because I get
33:47
terrible anxiety when when I have to prepare for things.
33:53
Tell me the triggers you notice and on that day and you have to
33:57
when you have to perform if you like, what helps you on the day?
34:00
What do you do to combat that if you like?
34:02
I think what's really important is a lot of the times I get, you
34:06
know, in the past I got focused on the performance.
34:09
And I, I think what I've learned over the years is if I have a
34:12
good understanding of the theme, if I can read a book, for
34:15
example, or, you know, if there's something I want to talk
34:18
about, I will literally speak it out loud it to myself just to
34:22
learn it. First of all, the idea I like
34:25
discussing things. So things I remember things by
34:28
speaking and having conversations about certain
34:30
topics. That works really well for me.
34:32
And you know, for me, that's just getting the ideas out
34:36
there, putting the words together in a way that I like
34:38
what they sound like, you know, But I think where it falls off
34:44
for me is where if I'm trying to learn things by heart and I'm, I
34:49
have to remember every word or I have to remember every fact, I
34:52
think that's where it falls down.
34:53
Because then I feel like, no, I've made a mistake and I forgot
34:57
that thing. And I and I was supposed to
34:59
mention this bit and I could have said that.
35:02
Yeah. Where's it going and where's it
35:04
going that? Was why that's why I like what I
35:06
do now so much, which is around kind of like storytelling.
35:10
People remember stories far more than they remember, you know,
35:16
academic papers, people, you know, and I used to say this
35:20
when I would go to conferences about assistive technology
35:24
sometimes. And there was even 1 conference
35:26
that I left because I just couldn't bear it.
35:28
I didn't understand what people were saying to me and I and I,
35:31
and I, for me, it's just a presentation of lines and
35:33
squiggles and saying things in a way I have no idea what you're
35:37
saying and really what I, you know, in any given circumstance,
35:42
you know, I want to know what the problem is, what you're
35:45
doing about it, what you want, you know, me to do about it.
35:50
And that's basically it's, you know, why should I care?
35:53
What's the problem? You know, what are you doing
35:55
about it? And why do you want, what do you
35:56
want from me? And, and I, I think I realized
36:00
that really that's what most people want to know if I'm
36:02
giving a presentation, like they just want to understand the
36:06
story from you, because most people are not going to retain
36:09
all the details anyway. You know, I think we have, we
36:13
are very powerful visual thinkers, a lot of dyslexic
36:17
people. We can imagine very well.
36:19
We we have the ability to step back and see, you know,
36:22
sometimes in our heads, the very literal picture.
36:25
And I think that if we get stuck on trying to deliver things in a
36:29
neurotypical way, we will always struggle.
36:31
But we know how to arrange ideas and thoughts and topics and come
36:36
up with stories most of the time.
36:37
I know that sometimes it can be overwhelming, but I sometimes
36:40
feel like if I'm reading a paper and I only remember two things,
36:43
well, that's probably the two things that I need to present
36:46
about because they were the two most interesting things of the
36:48
paper or of the book. Yeah.
36:52
And you know, these are not universal rules, but I think if
36:54
we can just just take a breath 1st and and realise that the
37:00
people that we're speaking to, they're not testers.
37:02
Most people just want to be entertained by a presentation.
37:06
They don't want to be bored. That is, you're dead right?
37:10
The best advice anybody ever gave me was, hey, listen, they
37:12
don't even know what you're going to talk about.
37:14
And I think in my head, I think in my head, whenever I've
37:18
presented, it's always been, you've just said it, it's a test
37:21
again and I'm going to fail. Where's that big red?
37:23
Where's the red mark through my and the best presentation I've
37:27
ever done was last year, the Nadex.
37:30
And he's taken me years and years and years and years and
37:33
years. And the reason that was such a
37:35
good presentation was exactly what he just said.
37:38
I paint beautiful pictures in my head, but when the words come
37:41
out of my mouth or on a screen, they don't come out how I've
37:45
painted in my head for that day. Those pictures that came out out
37:50
of my mouth, they came out beautifully.
37:52
And instead of trying to explain or like the blurb, give out a
37:59
blurb. I just just told a story.
38:02
I told a story that was up there and it was to people, it was to
38:06
businesses and some educators that was about any shadow of
38:10
that in all the years I've been doing is the best presentation
38:12
I've done. And that is because I did some
38:15
breathing exercises. Someone taught me about some
38:17
doing some breathing exercises and I've realized that it's not
38:21
a test. Nobody actually knows what I'm
38:23
going to say. Yeah, The next time I do that,
38:26
I'm going to try and do it exactly the same.
38:27
I'm just, I'm just not. I'm just not going to.
38:31
I'm not going to try and I'm not going to try and do the blurbly
38:35
stuff and try and give the facts.
38:37
And I'm saying I'm just going to paint, tell the story that's up
38:40
there. You know how I see it and hope
38:42
that people get that. You and I certainly would.
38:45
Anybody, you know, that's fine. Yeah, that's.
38:48
True. OK, I mentioned to you that we
38:52
get a lot of people listening to parents and some, there's some
38:55
educators and I know, I know for a fact there is one person.
39:00
I keep telling them, look, you need to, you need to just, you
39:05
need to face up to this, you know, like if someone, if you, I
39:10
know you'll be listening, but there's probably others as well.
39:13
So if there is someone listening right now who's masking, just
39:15
just coping, just getting by, they're completely exhausted.
39:19
Tell that one person for me, what's the next step they can
39:23
take today to make it feel a little bit better or a little
39:26
bit different perhaps? Well, I think given that most
39:29
people don't accept advice, certainly not from me stranger,
39:33
I just first would probably instead of telling them what to
39:36
do, ask a question, which is like, how are you doing
39:38
beautiful? Because the reality is that, you
39:42
know, I read something once that said like change only really
39:45
happens in your life when the discomfort of where you are
39:49
outweighs the discomfort of something different.
39:52
And I think that that is literally the case for us.
39:56
We build safety in places that are uncomfortable because it's
40:01
what we know. And I think the biggest thing
40:04
that you can do, you know, not giving advice here folks, but
40:08
just, you know, the biggest thing you can do is just just
40:11
take a deep breath. You know, like you, you are
40:14
going to be OK you it is OK you. Are going to be.
40:17
OK. What is not OK is being so
40:21
anxious, so overwhelmed that you're I'll.
40:24
That happens to a lot of us and we don't tell anyone about it.
40:28
And I think getting help can be something as simple as, you
40:33
know, having a chat with someone that might know what you know,
40:38
be able to identify with you. Finding that community I think
40:42
is quite important. Googling it, just having a
40:44
Google and seeing what's out there.
40:47
But I think we believe a lot of things that are untrue about
40:51
ourselves through education, through work experiences and all
40:54
of that. We believe a lot of lies about
40:57
you have to be smart to be worth it and all of that.
41:00
At the end of the day, you are you.
41:04
There is nobody else that can be or think like you or give value
41:08
to the world that you have. And so the best thing you can do
41:12
is just take a moment. Just take a moment like it's
41:14
going to be OK and let's think it through.
41:18
And if you really want to do things differently, if you
41:20
really just curious about what it could be like to embrace this
41:25
a bit more and what it might be like to advocate a bit more for
41:28
yourself or, or maybe there is a better way or maybe there's a
41:32
more comfortable way. There's no, there's no losing
41:35
asking the question and just learning a bit more.
41:38
And if at the end of all of that, you just want to keep
41:40
doing what you're doing, there's no judgement from me.
41:43
You do what you know, but you don't have to stay there.
41:46
And that's the empowerment. That's the choice that you're
41:48
you make within your life. You don't have to live the way
41:53
that somebody else set you on, which is what we do when we live
41:57
the life set by criticism and trying to chase approval the
42:01
whole time. We don't need to do that.
42:03
It's OK to stop and take a breath and say this is really
42:06
crap. I hate this.
42:08
I find it so hard. Validate yourself.
42:10
It is hard. It is difficult to be dyslexic.
42:13
It is hard, but you know, it's harder to be lonely.
42:18
So you know, we need to find our communities.
42:22
You know you just did that. You know you just did that.
42:24
You didn't do the blurb. You'd paint a picture and the
42:26
words caught your mouth beautifully.
42:27
That was that was what you've just said there was amazing,
42:30
honest, some great, great advice and and or not advice, whatever
42:35
it is. But yeah, lovely, very
42:38
beautiful. Yeah.
42:39
OK, listen, sad, but last question from me and I've had
42:45
some no pressure by the way, no pressure.
42:48
I've had some amazing, and I mean amazing answers to this
42:52
question. And I think the reason they're
42:54
amazing and I've started to learn this over the weeks is
42:57
because this word defines everybody in a different way and
43:00
has a different meaning to everybody.
43:02
So my question to Catherine is, what does stick no more mean to
43:05
you personally? So, yeah, I know it's last
43:08
question. Complicated, I think is my
43:10
answer. Yeah, it's really complicated
43:15
because I think maybe I have like I want to offer maybe a
43:19
different perspective maybe on it.
43:22
And I think that for a lot of us that grew up with the words
43:26
thick, I mean thick, it was used to describe me.
43:29
It was a word that my my dad repeated a lot about, you know,
43:33
I mean, I know that he had experiences with that word being
43:35
used a lot as well. And so in terms of what does the
43:40
podcast mean, I think it's great.
43:42
We need to have be having more of these conversations in terms
43:45
of what I feel about the word itself.
43:49
I think we as a yeah. I want.
43:51
The community to stand up and say this is a word that was used
43:55
to deliberately harm us and it is used repeatedly to harm us.
43:59
And I think obviously in the context of talking about what it
44:03
means for our community, there's, there's space for, you
44:06
know, reclaiming it as part of our story.
44:08
But I feel, and I'm going to say a word here that I'm a bit
44:11
scared to use, but I, I believe it's true.
44:14
I think that we ought to consider words like this, like
44:17
thick, you know, other words that we use to, to describe us
44:20
in school as slurs to our community.
44:24
They are not accurate to describe who we are as people.
44:29
And it sets us up to have this hierarchy that we, you know, if
44:35
only I wasn't stupid, I would be, I would be, you know, I, I
44:41
would be better. And the truth is that this is a,
44:44
this is not real. This is a way of other people
44:48
trying to make us feel smaller. And I want to give it back.
44:52
And I want to say that's not ours.
44:55
That needs to go in the bin. And we're going to protect our
44:58
community and we're going to say there is space for everyone,
45:01
whether you're Einstein or whether you're not.
45:04
And actually, our worst comes inherently from being a
45:08
worthwhile person. And there are so many beautiful,
45:12
worthwhile people at all places in the spectrum of dyslexia, of
45:17
dyscalculia, the whole neurodiverse over here, you
45:21
know, And then you bring in the intersectionality into it.
45:24
I mean, what a party, you know, I feel like we we we ought to
45:30
stand up for ourselves more with this word in particular.
45:33
And there are probably some others, Jay, as well, which, you
45:35
know, need to ponder on a little bit.
45:37
But there are you that we. Yeah, because we we don't in
45:44
other areas of of activism, you know, we say them and we're not
45:49
going to be accepting that term anymore.
45:51
And I feel like for our community, we ought to be
45:55
powerfully advocating the same. And so I kind of, I can feel
46:01
people behind me like, you know, the faces and the names and I,
46:06
and I think we ought to be free of that word.
46:08
Yeah, yeah. But I think you just said
46:09
something about that behind you. They're not in front of you
46:12
anymore, my friend. You've left them well behind.
46:14
And that's where that's where they belong, right?
46:17
That's where they belong. That's where they belong to me
46:19
anyway. And I just want to add, you
46:21
mentioned about a beautiful community.
46:22
You are a beautiful person. Honestly, I think the stories
46:28
you've told today will resonate with a lot of people.
46:30
So I really want to thank you for coming on because I know you
46:34
haven't been very well recently and I know that you're a busy,
46:39
busy lady. So thank you so much for sharing
46:41
your stories and your time. And I couldn't have picked a
46:45
better person to bring this to a close of Season 1.
46:52
Thanks so much and now you are very welcome.
46:56
We will be back in a few weeks time with some incredible things
47:02
if I can get my beautiful pictures out of my brain onto
47:06
paper. And Catherine, thank you so much
47:08
for joining us today. It's been amazing.
47:10
And if anyone wants to reach out to Catherine, you will find her
47:16
on social media, on LinkedIn. And I'm sure she wouldn't have
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any objections to you reaching out to her.
47:22
You can always come through me if you want to, if there's
47:24
something that you can. Catherine's mentioned that
47:26
you're you're interested in finding more about.
47:28
So thanks so much for listening and thanks for joining us,
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Catherine.