Latest / Infidels / The Kuwaiti refugee exposing radical Islamism in Canada | Jasem Aljuraid
Transcript
- Richard Landes: All right, we're here with Jasem Aljuraid who is a Kuwaiti political refugee living in Canada, and who has, among other things, started a new initiative called the Middle East and North Afri Middle East, North Africa and Turkey Watch. in which he monitors the political and human rights behavior of these countries in a way that the UN should be doing but is not. So you've taken on quite a task. tell us first about of all about your journey. You were born in Kuwait raised in Kuwait what happened to you and why did you leave? Jasem Aljuraid: First of all, thank you Richard to have a conversation. always envy the way you tackle this information and the insider of each culture. So one of them is people, have a lot of questions about Jassim. Like, why are you in Canada? What are you Jassim? Why are you supporting Israel? Why you sound like an infidel I can answer all these questions today in this podcast. Yeah, Richard Landes: please do, please do. Jasem Aljuraid: so I was a senior vice president of Kuwait financial center for a while And before that ever since 2015 if we're talking about the timeline now and I want to mention from 2015 until 2021 I was writing for Al Capas one of the most prestigious publishers in the GCC And my topics were covering only the secularism, peace with Israel. I was shedding lights on Israel's democracies. And that was triggering some people, but we had a very good leader. His name was Sabah Al-Ahmed. And after 2020, Sabah Al-Ahmed died, and then they went after me and after a couple of other journalists. I was investigative journalist. Against those scholars who used Islam for their own benefit and their own gain So I kept writing about them and exposing them to the society But unfortunately that wasn't They cancelled me they they fired me from al-qabas with a huge campaign from those radical Islamists and the Muslim Brotherhood They joined Richard Landes: Wow. Jasem Aljuraid: forces. They think yeah, they thought that this is the last chapter of The liberal opinions in the Middle East when I say liberal opinions just to you know clarify things I'm a conservative in in the West and Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: And that conservancy when you take it to the Middle East you're you're so much to the left radical Richard Landes: You're r you're radical right. Jasem Aljuraid: left so They consider me as liberal. I'm I call myself as a classic liberal. Yes, I am a liberal but classic liberal. I'm not left Left as a different ideology. Maybe we can talk about it in different conversation but Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: again, I was fired from al-qabas in 2021 and then they deleted all my articles Hundreds of articles. I asked al-qabas to send me the archive and they have rejected They said we don't want to you know associate our name with you now anymore. Just and thank you so much And now the society is is behind huge campaign that is, you know, affecting our profit organization severely. And I've heard Richard Landes: Well. Jasem Aljuraid: that they were like 50,000 unsubscribers to Al-Kabas and that 50,000 is like, it's an active subscription that they pay you on monthly basis. So they don't Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: want that to happen. And I understand. And then Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: I run for the parliament as a candidate to call Richard Landes: Wait, before you go to the before you go to the parliament, these fifty thousand subscribers had been reading your articles for years and all of a sudden a campaign was mounted? Jasem Aljuraid: They've sensed that the previous opinion of Sheikh Sabah Al-Ahmed, which is trying to secure every single opinion in Kuwait and Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: trying to protect them and shield them, they felt that this has been lifted on us and they weren't agreeing with us. Many of them, they weren't agreeing with us. And only the educated people on that class, they Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: were okay to at least see the other side of the story. And we were trying. It's not only me, me and my cousin, Abdullah, and others. We were really writing about Israel in a form of guys. It's a static case. Let's, you know, let's think about it from different perspective. Just take religious on the side and talk about Israel as a state, as a sovereign state. So I ran for the I run a campaign that was the only opening that I I legitimately found to be on the media again because I was cancelled. I was forbidden to, you know, held any interviews ever since 2021. Richard Landes: And you lost and y and were the were the articles you wrote on your computer at least, so you didn't completely lose them or? Jasem Aljuraid: What computer I've changed like maybe three laptops or five laptops ever since. It's, you know, when we write these articles, usually we go to Alkabas and we submit our USB. It's like you put your file on Richard Landes: I see. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: the old school. So you just offer the USB or the SD cards and then they take it and they upload it. I had a couple of them. Richard Landes: Wow, shit. Jasem Aljuraid: I had a couple of them, only a couple of them where I shared with Elaf, the Saudi publisher in London under Uthman El-Ameer. And Uthman El-Ameer after me being fired, he is the publisher of Elaf, which is very much closely to the power of Saudi Arabia. He said, you're welcome, just come and bring your articles. I told him. I left Kuwait. Now, whatever I have now is like maybe seven articles from the hundreds that I had. And I left laptops. I left things. I would just run away from Kuwait. I escaped in 2022. yeah, Richard Landes: Well Jasem Aljuraid: so he offered me a spot. And unfortunately, Richard, I think I'm too much and too heavy on those publishers when you want to criticize someone. And I don't like when I've been curbed by, you know, the Islam, the Islam they know, and they Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: say, don't go after those scholars or the grand muftis. They're all connected, you know. So if you don't welcome my right thing, I'm pretty much OK to leave. And then I left Ilhaf and I started doing it individually. Richard, I am not a Someone who can be plugged in the Arab media. I can't They don't think that I'm I'm really a product that they they they really understand or they see that it's Similarly, you know connecting and integrating their their opinions for the public They will they only want to share their own opinion as in a form of one-way communication We call it they call it an Islam the telkeen So you see like a big chair on the top on all these students are down there. Students Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: with PhDs in physics and whatever. So that guy, he is offering Talqib, which is like one way communication. cannot ask questions to Richard Landes: The teaching. Jasem Aljuraid: the teaching, indoctrination in terms of like Richard Landes: Right. The doctrine. Jasem Aljuraid: the doctor. Yes. It's bad. I wasn't built this way. think I am wired differently. So I said, exactly. Richard Landes: You're wired for a dispute culture. Jasem Aljuraid: So and then after I run for the parliament, for sure, I would lose because the collective awareness was like against any liberal opinions, which is like at least. They went after the ones who are calling for peace with Israel or supporting the Abraham Accords. So I was thrown in jail a couple of times and the Richard Landes: Whoops. Jasem Aljuraid: general prosecutor's office was my bedroom, almost my bedroom. Like every week I go back twice or thrice. I know what to do now. I understood the process. I come, I take my stuff. I take my Kuwaiti dress. And then they offer me something else to wear and then I sit down and then they interrogate and then they say, know, we're going right they say yeah But for how long this time they say 24 hours 48 hours And and sometimes I don't mention anything. They said just go and we will take you back and the quay financial center was also worried about about the you know, the perception of the organization they said joss and That's too much now. We can't Richard Landes: Well. Jasem Aljuraid: keep you. We have to let you go. And I was holding a very prestigious salary package in Kuwait. Richard Landes: Well. Jasem Aljuraid: when I asked myself, what do you want to be in your life? Do you want to be a puppet to those radical Islamists who can't infiltrate Richard Landes: A well taped topic. Jasem Aljuraid: a wealthy puppet? Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: I accept this term. I think I will use it in the future. So a wealthy puppet that is only, you know, admitting to those powers and those radical Islamists or someone who is free and represents himself and the culture that he was risen in that house where my mom has different culture than my dad. But they both agreed to disagree. And Richard Landes: Uhhuh. Jasem Aljuraid: my father was He was a noble guy. was against. I think I've got a lot from him. So in the last chapter, just to conclude this part of my journey, I was thrown to the criminal jail. They said, Jasem is not going to leave this Richard Landes: Whoa. Jasem Aljuraid: cell until the final verdict. And the final verdict, as we know today, has come up to 16 years to serve in jail. 16. I said, what did I do? Richard Landes: And the crime is? Jasem Aljuraid: Like being in an upstate, you know, if you criticize, if you criticize a scholar, it means that you're rejecting his, his opinion. So you're an upstate. And that was in Kuwait only after sheikh Sabah Al-Ahmed died. And they went by the way, backdated. They went to like 20. 2017 and 2016 and they got all my opinions, you know on those articles and they use it against me Sheikh Sabah Al Ahmed was a noble guy. He did not want us to be, you know questioned on being Richard Landes: Right, right. Jasem Aljuraid: criminals and then I escaped my friend. I had to leave and the royal family thankfully, there are like a couple of them who remembers me, you meeting Sheikh Sabah Al Ahmed as a writer and we were like friendly, know, trying to tackle those issues and we were talking on their behalf sometimes in our articles because they don't want to take a side in any case on any problem, you know, Richard Landes: Gotcha. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: yeah. Richard Landes: All right, so then you come to Canada. Jasem Aljuraid: Yeah, I'm an Algonquin alumni. So I thought that I can just keep studying. I remember Canada in 2016. like, it's not the same now anymore. I thought that Canada is the same Canada that I knew in 2016. It's not the same at all. So I thought that, okay, I need to give back to this country. And because... This country has already, you know, sheltered me and my family. And now I'm living in my house. I'll never forget this for Canada and the Canadian people. So I said, I will be someone who is helping you guys to get yourselves out of the infiltration of those radical Islamists and the Palestinians. And I was successfully able to list Saam-e-Doon, for example, one of the movements here in Canada, funded Richard Landes: huh. Jasem Aljuraid: by PFLP, as a terrorist group. And the United States has also adopted the same ruling. And I'm very happy. I was part of it. were like Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Jasem Aljuraid: peer journalists who worked with me in this investigative reporting, and then it was discussed in the House of Commons. Thanks to Melissa Lantzman, again, the deputy leader of the Conservative Party, who who really shed light on this report and then we were successful. I'm still trying to let the Canadian know that the value of freedom of speech is not applicable on those radical Islamists and the skin of political refugees. They are not political refugees. They want to infiltrate ready societies with high value of assets. to just get in there and try to eliminate the concept of watching the corruption around those politicians. And now they started to support someone who is willing to be corrupt, but just supporting the cause of those free Palestine, the jihad, the newest jihad term. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: That's the version two of jihad, it's called now, it equals to free Palestine. Yep. Richard Landes: Okay, so did you try and get a job as a as a journalist in Canada? Jasem Aljuraid: Good question. Who would hire someone who is opposing those radical Islamists in the country? It was too early for Canadians in 2023 to understand that JASM is coming from a good place. So they think that JASM is coming to radicalize the freedom of speech. and that JASM is trying to exclude people from the rights of expression. I said, well, if you think about me this way, think in the next couple of years, you're going to come and apologize. And today, in 2026. Richard Landes: You getting any apologies? No, no. Right, right. Jasem Aljuraid: No, not yet, but I can sense it coming my way from distance. They saw how radical and how criminal of a behavior that those people carry and the streets and the organizations. So I think I have another mission besides the Minat region. I think Canada Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: and the United States deserve our attention to just let them know in their own language that what is happening in the West is catastrophic. were millions of people who died to reach this position of secularism and taking the state out of the religious conflict. Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: Radical religious conflicts. I'm not talking about that because we have a Muslim country called the Emirates and now it's a beacon of peace in the entire world I don't Richard Landes: huh. Jasem Aljuraid: know what Islam Emirates is is adopted What Islam quite adopted in the past? They were all they're Richard Landes: huh. Jasem Aljuraid: all Muslims. So what Islam we're talking about now Richard Landes: Right. So then all right, so let's turn to the issue of Islam. I mean, one of the directions I'd like to go in and interested in your thoughts on it is it it sounds like you left Kuwait because you it was considered criminal to criticize religious authorities, and then you come to the West and the infidels tell you that you shouldn't criticize. Muslim religious authorities. Jasem Aljuraid: that Infit does themselves. Richard Landes: So so I mean in in classical language, Arabic, Islamic terminology, they're dhimmi. Jasem Aljuraid: They're in the Dar Al Harb. Richard Landes: Right, they're in the Dar alharm, but they're behaving as if they were already subjected to Islam. They're taking orders from the supremacists, they're forbidding their own communities from criticizing the supremacists, which is the job of Dhimmi leaders, is to make sure that their people don't anger Muslim authorities because the consequences can be terrible. Jasem Aljuraid: Yeah. Look, when we talk about the Dhimmi, I think the value of the Dhimmi or the legitimate definition of Dhimmi is that Islam has reached to area and you became Dhimmi. So Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: the sovereign power has to be Sharia. Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: That's one. Two, if we're talking about those those Europeans and Westerns. I think they have also helped the radical Islamists to establish a new definition called Islamophobic. I don't understand what Islamophobic is. Last time I checked, phobia Richard Landes: Huh. Jasem Aljuraid: is an irrational position Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: towards a status or a topic. What I see now is that if you want to criticize Jesus, it's not called christianphobic. Richard Landes: And it yeah, and it's not called and it's not called blasphemy. Jasem Aljuraid: No, it's not blasphemy. It's not a Christian phobic. Nothing. They did not create any, any term of that sort. But the Muslims came, this radical Islamist came, Islamist came and they called it Islamophobia. So they say, we are going to change your rights to just alter your rights to be custom fit our our actions in the West societies. So no criticism on us. You'll be criminal if you criticize our movement. So I asked them, I asked a lot of those Muslims in universities, I have like tours here in Canada to just go and debate. And I asked them, do you believe everything that is written in Hadith, the parallel source of Islam? next to Quran, they said, yeah, the Hadith that coming from Bukhari and Muslim or whatever. So I said, okay, so if you accept Bukhari, Bukhari said blah, blah, blah, blah. And are you accepting this? They said, yes, we accept it and we believe in it. I said, okay, but this is a call of Darul Halb. So you're saying that the Western countries are your next war. So What what type of war that you're launching did you already started? Because if you don't do it then you're an infidel Are you saying that you have already started and this was your baby steps towards it? Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Jasem Aljuraid: They were like They said we don't talk to a zinus and then they just leave without shaking hands. I said, all right, so now now I know That you guys have already started and you cannot say that we didn't Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: because those radical Islamists will question themselves whether they have a purpose in the Western societies or not. Okay, one of them, of course, to touch the beautiful angels in the West, they like light skins and red hairs. But now another thing is what else? Okay, what else? You have already kidnapped children. You raped women. Okay, we know that we know that this is part of your you know The early steps to towards blood but what's next they they don't want to answer and next is Either they get to the power and now there's I've read the shocking report actually about the increasing number of Muslims in the Western societies. I checked one county in the UK where it was a Christian majority and they call it a county of, for example, whatever it's called. Now today, if Muslims come to a place and they They started to make more babies and the population has shifted towards majority Muslims. They call it a Richard Landes: Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: Muslim county. They gave it a name. They named it a Muslim county. Okay, what was it called before? It wasn't called a Christian county. It was called a British county. So who was infiltrating this and setting new rules into the Western societies? Richard Landes: You know, this is striking because one of the things that the supremacists in the pala we call it the Palestinianist movement make a big deal about is that Israel came in and renamed cities that had Arab names. So so they complain and I think this is characteristic. Jasem Aljuraid: they change the sound of it only the sound so yeah so good Richard Landes: Uhhuh. Uhhuh. But but but what we're right, but what we're dealing with is a group of people with two sets of rules. The Israelis are not allowed to rename Arab cities, but the Arabs rename Western cities. So they accuse Israel of colonialism and replacement, whatever, and that's what they practice. Jasem Aljuraid: Yeah, it's in my speech in the UN, one of the moments that came, it came really very late, but never too late. So I just said Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: it, I just said it, that you're talking about colonization. That's absurd. We are the Arabs who colonized the Phoenicians and Amazigh and Egyptians and Persians. So If we have such a history, we want to really leave that history behind and open a new page. So you're talking about a country that was reborn after there was a ruling and there was a mandate to name all the countries at the same time. So Kuwait was named Kuwait with the new borders at the same time almost. So do we say that Richard Landes: well, interesting. Jasem Aljuraid: Kuwait is an invader of someone? If Israel was reborn after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, thanks to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who said, I'm not going to use Islam in this resolution. I'm going to give it to the British and let them come and do whatever they want to do. Israel Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: said the name, Palestine, is an insult. We don't want to use the name Palestine. We want to use the name that we have read in our culture, which is the people of Israel. So we want to call this Israel. And then because they care really much about names, we're talking about, you know, renaming things. So they think that Israel shouldn't be a name of a country. That's the first step, you know, into calling it a colonization state. So they have like, there a lot of, know, conflicts on double standards and their principles. They Richard Landes: Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: want to change names, but they don't want others to change names. Richard Landes: Right. So right. So let me ask you because this is something that has always puzzled me. how much do they know what they're doing? I mean, are they aware that they are playing a game, that it's double standards, that they're basically duping the white man into committing suicide, or do they genuinely believe that they're being fair and that You know, I I mean, you know, there's a discussion on whether we should use the word antisemitism or Antizionism.. I I actually like the term Judeophobia because I sense there's a real fear of Jews. And I I remember as a kid wasn't a kid, I was in graduate school, but when when Sadat signed the peace treaty with Israel, the the I think it was the minister either of education or of culture in Syria said, you know, this is the first step to Israel conquering the Middle East culturally and dominating it. And I and I thought n I mean not exactly on the program for the Israelis that I knew, but also, you know, why would you why would why would you fear that this tiny country, just because they have normal relations with you, is gonna conquer you? Jasem Aljuraid: Well, I shouldn't be called an infidel actually, because I believe in their Quran more than they do. Richard Landes: huh. Jasem Aljuraid: I went to their Quran. The Quran that the Emirates was taken for granted. The Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Jasem Aljuraid: Quran that Kuwait is taken for granted, the Quran that Bahrain is taken for granted, Morocco is taken for granted. And then they went there and they said, God can't be a double standard entity or a super conscious being. So if God is not a double standard and that is one of his main pillars, then why did he command the people of Israel to enter the land and he made them kings and prophets? Did he offer this to the Arabs? No, he never did. Okay. Quran mentioned the Arabic, you know, holy book. Did the holy book mention any ethnicity of Arabs? Like a family or whatever it is? No. Only mentioned the Jews. So is it like a Jewish book? That was like just reminding the Muslims that you have to remember that the Jews are the chosen people. And in terms of religion, I don't believe in that. I don't believe like there is something called chosen people. I believe that Israel is a country that has to exist based on their history. And they are ready. And they are ready to thrive and help the entire region to be more peaceful. I'm Richard Landes: Right. And productive. Jasem Aljuraid: not religious. I'm not religious. Richard Landes: Yes, that's a very secular argument. Jasem Aljuraid: yeah, so when I go as a secular, And I see the westerns have been infiltrated by those people and they started to accept their narrative. I say that Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: you have to also allow the other side to be around. If you don't allow the other side to be around, then you have already destroyed the last values of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not to tell you Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: what you want to hear, it's to tell you the most uncomfortable word. Richard Landes: Right, right, right. Jasem Aljuraid: or the most uncomfortable statement and Richard Landes: Okay. Jasem Aljuraid: you have to accept it. Richard Landes: Right. So now this brings us back to two points. Danny Burmaui, his thesis is Islamophobia is not the issue, it's Islam's phobia of criticism. That that that not only is the term Islamophobia used to silence criticism from infidels. But also a way of covering up this fear of criticism, so that it it doesn't happen. And so my question to you is why has that campaign been so successful among Westerners? I mean, you come here from a country, you think that you're coming to Canada, it's a free country, you've escaped a country where you can literally be put in prison for criticizing public figures and you get here and and the the infidels are repeating in a milder form but the same argument. How do you understand that? Jasem Aljuraid: Well, remember, you know, just want to salute my friend, Danny. We worked together in one article talking about the infidels, I think. Richard Landes: We'll get to that. That's an important article. Jasem Aljuraid: Yeah. So again, when we talk about these kinds of events, we always try to see where to approach the conversation. Some of them they take the religious path, some of them they take the law path, some of them they take the historic path. I said, okay, like just choose one. And they choose the Islamic path. We say, we're ready, let's talk. So are you an infidel like us or are you a believer? Say, I'm a believer. Do you believe everything that is written in this book? Yes. Okay. So there are two commands. One of them is to enter the land and the other one is to live in the land. So there are two commands and two different verdicts and verses in Quran. So I'm saying that for those people who are approaching it from a religious perspective, being antizionist is an infidel position. You have to be a Zionist. And your Quran is the the most holiest Zionist book alive. Okay, just you have Richard Landes: Okay. Jasem Aljuraid: to understand that. And Israel has been mentioned 43 times. The people of Israel has been mentioned 43 times in your Quran. And Moses is the most mentioned prophet in Quran. So where's Muhammad? I'm saying where's Muhammad? Muhammad is, I can see that Muhammad is, he thinks that Moses is one of the of the superior prophets like the one of the most effective prophets closest to God or what is it? So if you want to disbelieve that huge chapter of this Quran then what do you believe in? Are you really tailoring the Quran's narrative towards your own interests which is infiltrating keeping the cause of Palestine and it cannot eliminate Israel. You just want to create and recycle the same problem back and forth. Through Quran, it doesn't work because Quran is commanding Muslims to have peace with them. So now we go to the legislative branch, which is let's talk about the UN. You've been already recognized by the UN and you've put all your efforts and capabilities to surround your sovereign land with borders, to have peoples with the status entity and then you have a leader. So this is the definition of a sovereign country. Israel did the same thing. So what's the problem? They said No, it's a colonization and we only go back. Our history starts from Omar ibn Al-Khattab. Omar Richard Landes: Starts from where? Jasem Aljuraid: ibn Al-Khattab, one of the Khalifats. Richard Landes: Well Jasem Aljuraid: Omar ibn Al-Khattab, the one who entered Jerusalem and he Richard Landes: Uh-huh, Omar. Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: issued a declaration even to protect the Jews in Israel. So I said that's the legislative part. you accepting? Okay, leave both the arguments. Let's go to the history. Are you sure they want to go through history? Yes or no? If you want to go through history, then this is what is written. This is what we found in the archaeology findings. So what about you? Show me one evidence that you have, you know, ruling and maybe mention one day that the son has found Israel, Palestine with a leader. Show me one day and this entire history. that there was a leader. Richard Landes: Sorry. Right, but i I mean essentially what you're doing is giving me rational arguments, historical arguments, empirical arguments, but the West actually having been the source of this kind of thinking now seems to have thrown it overboard. I mean, you're more Western Jasem Aljuraid: Yeah, let's. Richard Landes: than the Westerners you're talking to. Jasem Aljuraid: Yes, yes, we have adopted their values. We are more Western than those people who are supporting the Palestinians. And when we ask them, what do mean by river and sea? They have no idea. Richard Landes: Yeah. Right. They have no idea. Jasem Aljuraid: So again, when you talk about rational positions, the politicians are taking their countries to these shackles. I'm telling you, the politicians are favoring the voters who are who never questions their corruption. I think it's a suicidal position. The politicians are now only talking about, now there is a mayor running here in Ontario, okay, in Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: the city where I'm living, and he's a mayor, so he has to only think about improving the life quality and the services offered by the by the mayor of office. You know what he's saying? He said, Richard Landes: Well. Jasem Aljuraid: he started to discuss the genocide of Gaza and his entire campaign was about Gaza and Israel. I said, okay, so you want to go to those corrupt people and try to convince them to vote for you and you want to stay in the power forever. Is that what we want? So that's the current West version and I really don't like it. And we're opposing it with investigative reporting. We're not saying that don't sympathize with Gaza. Do whatever you want to do. But remember October Richard Landes: Should Jasem Aljuraid: 7th. Richard Landes: All right, so let's talk about October seventh because for some of us who I mean, my wake up moment was 2000, when Arafat said no and started the Intifada. And I you know, I I had I knew about the Hudaibiyah speech in South Africa. I knew about this sort of, you know, he's talking out of both sides of his mouth, and the it's for the Nobel Peace Prize, it's the peace of the brave, and then at in South Africa to his fellow Muslims, it's this is just a trick, and as soon as we can, it's a Trojan horse, and when the time comes the hor the s warriors will come out of it. And they came out in 2000. So for me, 2000 was a wake up period. In the next twenty-five years, I always imagined that when the Hamas revealed its true face when, you know, the mask of civil society protests, etc., etc., the poor suffering Palestinians we feel for them was ripped aside, and you saw the genocidal nature of Hamas and the support that they got from all kinds of people, including All these civil society organizations in the West, like CARE and Students for Justice in Palestine and BDS and so on, that that would be a wake-up moment. But instead, at least amongst the most vocal, it seems to have been a moment of intensification of their commitment to a cause that violated everything they th thought it was about. Jasem Aljuraid: Well, it's, the Nobel prize was given for a reason, right? And, the reason was for him to go to the Oslo accords and, demolish Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Jasem Aljuraid: the two-state solution. said, I don't Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: care. let's, let's just, you know, accept ourselves. I want to just run away from those Arabs and I want to lie to you and say, I'm done. And I will, I'll put my, the Israeli flag. on my suit and he did it. But at the same time he has already launched a lot of interfadus. Richard Landes: Right. So but but right, but I'm trying to get at why do you think that Western progressives and I I know you said that a liberal is not a a leftist. Progressives who at least claim to believe in liberal values like freedom and equality and fairness would would behave in the way that they did after october seventh. Jasem Aljuraid: Again, it's about the propaganda machine that the Palestinian used. They have launched a campaign that no one really expected to see, like the amount of lies that can easily infiltrate the entire Western societies was mastered and engineered by people who used to lie for 70 years so far. So they know how to lie. And they started now to let the Western know that there is another cause that without it, they have no meaning in life. So I met a lot of Westerns and students and professors even. I asked them, like, why are you with the cause of Palestine? Through the conversations, Richard, I Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: understood that they understand nothing about their own culture. They have let go of their culture and they have adopted a new adventure in life called free Palestine. And this adventure in life, they don't know that it has no expiry date and there is no solution for that product. Richard Landes: Except for the except for the extermination of Israel and it's an in Jasem Aljuraid: They know they can't so it's like I love this product, but if I keep it in the fridge, then I'll keep it forever then let's not break the fridge but the fridge is keeping that Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: Product that some people don't like so the fridge becomes now a necessary machine for them to continue and Is Richard Landes: And that's the peace process. Jasem Aljuraid: peace process or Israel even I call the Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: the fridges Israel Israel is keeping keeping you. Yeah, Israel is keeping the cause up live Every every day you see Israel like right having a peace treaty with with another country That is Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: not killing because in the Western societies They are adding another flag that they need to target next. It's like on their on their walls They're saying all the Emirates now is our our target and we've seen this and false reports against the United Arab Emirates, for example, in Sudan. We saw them in Yemen. We saw these floods about what the Emirates doing now in the UK and how they're alarming them. So it's an ongoing chaos. And the only way for this chaos to be concluded is the Board of Peace is building Gaza upon different principles and values. And then they say, OK, do you think that I can live here? Yeah, please live. And this is your leader now, the interim leader, until we see some sort of maybe legitimate formation of your government. But if you look at the West Bank now, Judea and Samaria, Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: the PLO today, They have no constitution. It has been frozen on the elections has been postponed years after years and after years. We laughed. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: We laughed at the West and say, how can you support a non-democratic entity and an entity that supports Sharia law where they can kill all few of the infidels Richard Landes: Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: in the East and the West. again, It's a chaos. I think it's a day by day project. And the only way to do it is through shocking the Western societies about their status in those countries. If they go to Gaza, they will be thrown from the highest building. Richard Landes: Building. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: I don't know if they have high buildings anymore, but yeah. Richard Landes: Made it hard to execute gaze. All right, so but if I can give you listen, I I I'm also a liberal and I believe in liberal principles, but I have to acknowledge that the liberal ideal has met a formidable foe. And so one of the things most recently With the case of this fly Dubai pilot from Oman, but even before that, October 7th can be seen in this light, and certainly during the Oslo peace process, suicide bombing was first, suicide terror was first developed as a way to fight this. So that any time that you see in the Middle East the progress of liberal values, you can expect ferocious reactions. Jasem Aljuraid: Yeah. Richard Landes: S so so you're working for this and ironically you could say the harder you work for it, the more likely you are to trigger violent reactions. Jasem Aljuraid: Well, you never know when that painkiller is lifted from that severe injury. The severe injury is the radical ideas and the painkiller is the laws that Emirates curbing their people or whoever is working with the Emirates. That Omani guy, he based on the reports, the latest reports, I think it's Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: We're going to confirm that maybe in the next couple of days. But he's half Syrian as well. So he is half Omani, half Syrian. Hammam al-Hammami is Omani. And the Grand Mufti of Oman has changed the sect of abadism to a Muslim brotherhood. going to release an investigative report against this guy, Ahmed al-Khalibi. who has changed his position completely after Sultan Qaboos died. And Sultan Qaboos died, him and Sheikh Sabah Al-Ahmet, were the most secular leaders in the region. And Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: both of them died in the same year, 2020. So now when Sultan Qaboos who invited Bani Minataniyahu and his wife Sarah to the castle of Sultan Qaboos, Mufti of Oman, the Grand Mufti of Oman, radical guy he said in 2022 he said it's a political it's a it's a political visit he did not come he didn't come to visit me so it's a political visit and I have nothing to say about so I'm saying that are you secular if you're secular then bravo but after a couple of years of Sultan Qaboos there's a Grand Mufti of Ahmad has radicalized the entire nation towards Israel, towards the Emirates, towards Kuwait even. So what do think this guy will, how long do you think this guy will hold his radicalism until one day comes out? He's not a pilot by the way, he was the co-pilot but the problem is The good thing is that both people were born in almost similar countries. Smet, he was born in the Emirates, the Indian pilot. So he Richard Landes: Right. Okay. Jasem Aljuraid: was radicalized. He was a peaceful man. He's a noble guy who was born in the Emirates. At the same time, the pilot was born in Oman, a very peaceful country under Sultan Qaboos. And after Sultan Qaboos dies, there's a conflict always happens between the transition of two powers and they peak, their activity peaks in between like the transition of a dead leader to the new named leader. So they come here, they infiltrate the entire society and they try to bring the societies as their shelter towards pushing or pressuring the new leader. to admit their power. So it's, it's, it's, I don't agree with like, for example, the all the accusations that Sultan Haitham is receiving because I know what happened in Kuwait as well. You need, you need him to try to, you know, control and balance the problems there. And then Ahmed Al Khalili is like, what, 87 years old today? Or he's going to die one day. I think they're just waiting for that moment for him to die. And then the next Mufti would be like a completely different Mufti. I had interviews with with Ibadahism, the Ibadah sect believers where the sect of Oman is called the Ibadahism. And Oman has chosen one of the Islamic sects which are very, very secular and open. They're even like softer and like than than the Salafis and Shias Abadi Abazi is like people who are Richard Landes: It's it's not Jasem Aljuraid: It's fascinating. So Sultan Qaboos Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: said Okay, Oman is Abadi. I don't care so this guy has taken the abadism to the radicalism and he connected with the Yousef Al-Qaradawi and he I don't Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: want to spoil my my investigative reporting, but he he was He was trying to link himself after he called for a debate with Ibn Baz, one of the largest and most fascinating Salafi Wahhabism scholar in the Islamic world. He wanted to debate him and he rejected the debate in the 1980s. So he's trying to take the Abadism to the level of Salafis and the Shi'a and he failed on that attempt. Now, and then he joined the Muslim Brotherhood with Yusuf al-Qaradawi and the United Scholars, the United Global Scholars Muslims, and then he became the deputy of al-Qaradawi. So it's a different change and switch of Ahmed al-Khalili. So Ahmed al-Khalili has radicalized his people and told them to just hate Israel and the Jews and he supported the Houthis. He also condemned the killing of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. He has offered like his respect in the memorandum of killing of Qasim Soleimani who killed two million Muslims in Iraq and Syria. Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: and he has Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: sent over 15 million Iraqis and Syrians to the Western societies as refugees. Richard Landes: So I mean are you saying that if you see an Arab country that has what in the Western lingo would be a an enlightened dictator, somebody who uses dictatorial powers to introduce liberal ideas. that can be reversed easily? Is that what we're looking at in Saudi Arabia when the current reformer dies or Jasem Aljuraid: Well, there is a term, an Arabic term, I'm just trying to, you know, bring it to the English speakers in your podcast. Let's see what it's called. Okay. They enlightened the spot. So. Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: All those leaders who are wired differently, okay? And they have Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: reached to a certain level of consciousness that radical Islamists are only going to destroy these countries. And they want to, you know, just use the people as collateral damages. And they reach to their own interests, like money, power, whatever. So Sultan Qaboos was one of the enlightened deposit. So this Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: guy has chosen the most lightest version of Islam as the sect of Oman. And unfortunately, it's not enough. You need to build... Legislation around this to protect the state and you don't need to keep the Grand Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: Mufti of Oman as another power You've seen him that he was evolving Richard Landes: Gotcha. Jasem Aljuraid: A long time You should have really foresee this but again Those people the Grand Mufti for example is he has no use if I open Gemini now and ask him Gemini can I Can I touch this animal if I'm Muslim and this is my sect of Islam? Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: Jamaluddin would be like much more articulate in the answer than Grand Mufti and he's more reachable. So why Richard Landes: Wow. Well. Jasem Aljuraid: don't we just change the game? Why do you need the Grand Mufti? Richard Landes: Right. all right. So I one of the things I wanted to ask you about, which the article that you wrote with Danny Burmawi was really quite striking because you basically said that a moderate Muslim in the West actually ends up serving the supremacists despite himself, that the kinds of pressures that he's under to say certain things, in order not to be, I guess, declared a h declared an apostate, end up serving the cause Of the very people he wants to distance himself from. Is that a fair description of the article? Jasem Aljuraid: Well, were talking first of all, again, cheers to Dandy. We felt like we can resonate with the topic much more as people who were thinking of not being pressured to accept that belief. Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: that question. Look, in my opinion, if you want to be an upstate in a country that is secular, you'll be Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: just fine. But once you go and announce it, you'll be in trouble. And the value of making that position or taking that position, it puts you in a lot of bad experiences. One of them is the exclusion from the society. Immediately, if you're not Muslim, you lowered your class to something else. And when you lower your class, then there are other laws, other society laws that are applied on you before the constitution, which is this guy has to be taught a lesson. because you You made a self conviction announced. So I said, you know what? I know that we're going to pay a hefty price, but I'll announce it. Let's see what's going to happen. Maybe it's going to be like softer on others or going to announce it in the future. So let us get the first hit. The heaviest hit if we're protected by a beautiful country like Canada. So let's announce it and let's see what's happening. Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: So in your closed circles, Richard, if you announce it or you show it, sometimes you don't need to announce it, just show it, right? Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: They're going to ask you why didn't you go to the Friday prayers, for example? Richard Landes: But why aren't you fasting? Jasem Aljuraid: Why aren't you fasting? Exactly. I never fasted. So if you're talking about that and you discuss it in a rational way that I don't want to fast because I'm not completely convinced to fast, I'm not completely convinced to follow this scholar. I think there is something, you know, much more holier than this, you know, version of Islam. And then they say, okay, because your mom is like not Muslim completely and then she became Muslim and like more you know a believer of Islam. I said yeah there is also another conflict from her side and I understand that she had a conflict with two beliefs in her house and she has chosen Islam because it was secular in the past before Khomeini Richard Landes: Let's get Jasem Aljuraid: showed up. So if you come in a wrong time and say that I don't want to fast, then the society will take their actions towards you. And then you have to manipulate yourself. You have to maneuver and find your way. And unfortunately, maneuvering your way through these infiltrated societies with radical Islamisms is to lie. And then I started to question myself, am I like using Taqiyah against the Taqiyah people or am I using Tawriya which is even Richard Landes: Right. Yes, you were. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: much more valuable than Taqiyah in my opinion. Tawriya is like even smarter than Taqiyah. Tawriya Richard Landes: And what is Jasem Aljuraid: is if I have ten dollars and one note of ten dollars in my pocket, one currency. and he asked Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: me for $2 I would lie I would I would you know I would swear to you that I don't have $2 I have $10 Richard Landes: But you wouldn't say I have ten, you'd just say I don't have two. So Jasem Aljuraid: I don't have to. That's a toldo ya. Richard Landes: so it's telling the truth. A truth that's told to mislead beats all the lies you can believe. Something like that. A line from William Blake. I see. A truth that's told Jasem Aljuraid: It's the worst thing ever, know, I don't know what to call it even. don't have even a definition for it. Richard Landes: a truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent. Jasem Aljuraid: okay, I'll adopt this statement more Richard Landes: Very. Jasem Aljuraid: but again, we use Tauria a lot of times. Did you pray? I'm going Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: to try to tell them that I'm focusing on this current prayer not the other prayers. I'm gonna say no, I did not pray Richard Landes: Right, right. Jasem Aljuraid: it But I've not I haven't ever prayed. So did you fast? I did not fast it But I never fasted so we use this And then in Richard Landes: Gotcha. Jasem Aljuraid: my experience, it could be like much more different than Danny's because Danny is Jordanian and he had a different society, different experiences. I Richard Landes: Right. Right. Jasem Aljuraid: was in the private sector already. Richard Landes: Yeah. Jasem Aljuraid: I was growing my and improving my career path. And it's very, very difficult to maneuver and reach to this position. being a senior vice president of Kuwait financial center, it's not easy. Richard Landes: Well. Jasem Aljuraid: And that's why to clear my consciousness, I was writing for Al-Kabas Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Jasem Aljuraid: to clear my conscious because it was very difficult to just accept one side of myself. I said, no, I will go on Richard Landes: Right. Jasem Aljuraid: write even if that, you know, end up, you know, damaging my career, but at least that I can I can have my actual consciousness and my conviction to be there on Al-Kabas and then in my career, I'll try to just run away from any personal questions. So that's, Richard Landes: Well Jasem Aljuraid: yeah. Richard Landes: Wow. All right. So listen, people who wanna follow your work, they can go to Maynot dot com. Jasem Aljuraid: MinatoWatch.org is my website, but it's not launched yet. I would Richard Landes: Always. Jasem Aljuraid: encourage them to follow me on Instagram and X. X is my main channel. I Richard Landes: Okay. Jasem Aljuraid: share contents in three languages, Hebrew, English, and Arabic. So feel free to follow and subscribe. And I have a lot of spaces. Richard Landes: All right, so do they find you at X under your name? Jamil? Jasem Aljuraid: Yes, Jasmin. Jasmin Jamil is Jamil Jeevani is one of the MPs here. He's a good guy. Jasmin. Richard Landes: I see. Okay. All right. Jasmine Jasem Aljuray. Jasem Aljuraid: them. Richard Landes: All right. Well thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us. And fascinating stuff. Fascinating stuff. You you have quite a Jasem Aljuraid: It's always a pleasure. Richard Landes: journey you've been through and I wish you a great deal of success in the next stages of that journey. Jasem Aljuraid: It's always a pleasure, Richard. Please keep spreading the light. Richard Landes: Thank you.