Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 84: Laura Du Ry - From Goalkeeper to Growth Manager - Navigating Career Transformation and Startup Success

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84: Laura Du Ry - From Goalkeeper to Growth Manager - Navigating Career Transformation and Startup Success · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: keeping yourself motivated to work through it and find that new passion.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: So, like the first two jobs I had, honestly I didn't really like that much and I was really struggling because I thought, ah, I could also be standing on a football field.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Did I make the right choice?
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Did I?
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: You know, shouldn't I have tried?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: And I tried to then come to terms with myself.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: No, you made a choice because you were, you know you were injured.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: You're not going to be the best version of yourself on the field anymore, so you have to become this other version of yourself for the future, and that takes time until I found the job that I really got excited about, as I said, in the tech industry and started to see this future for myself, where I thought, oh, I can actually become really good at this and I can probably create my new stage with this and become that competitive person again and do what I love.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, Hi, I'm Ryan God-Salvez and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particular sporty.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Laura, welcome to the show, Thank you.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Good to be here, excited.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, great, I'm glad to be speaking to you today.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I know that there's probably a lot to get through, I think, for someone so young.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: You've been through quite a bit ups and downs in terms of emotions in sport and outside of sport, so quite looking forward to delving a little deeper into your journey to where you are today.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds great.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: As I said, I'm happy to be here, yeah great, Well, listen, let's get started.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: So for those who don't know who you are, can you just give me that intro?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: What are you up to today?
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: So yeah, my name is Laura Dury, I'm living in Amsterdam and currently I work at a tech startup called AppRite in as the growth manager, which is basically the marketing person which I've been doing for the past couple of years in such a role.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: But, coming onto a year at AppRite currently.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: And how do you find the?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: role.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I enjoy it a lot.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: I think startup life is very fitting to me.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It's like a lot of responsibility, a lot of tasks, like if you do marketing.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: It's just not one focus area, it's multiple and you get to make a lot of impact and show a lot of leadership.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: So I really enjoy it actually.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's good.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I suppose you know you talk about that from a startup perspective.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: You have to be, I guess, prepared to jump in and help other people out.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: It's not in this big organization where you have this little thin slice of activity, but it's really getting stuck in a bit right.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really as if you're an entrepreneur but you're not, because you don't obviously have that kind of responsibility.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: But it is sort of setting up shop beyond just a specific part.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: So you do help around and you help with products, you help with sales kind of stuff, and for me that is exciting because you really get to understand the business from in and out.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: You know, you see the entire operation go around and you learn a lot from that and I say you get to make a lot of impact.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: So that's really exciting to me.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: And what is it about the impact?
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: That is exciting.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I think if you would compare it to working, as you say, on a small piece of the slice, that's all you sort of see.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: But if you get to work on a lot of things, or if you get to work, let's say, in marketing, from beginning to end on a campaign, you actually see sort of what your idea was actually in action.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: So you can really see, okay, I thought about something and now it's actually adding value to our company because it's now live and running and that kind of impact is really nice to have and fulfilling.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was exactly.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I was going to say that bit.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Do you find it, or to what extent is it fulfilling for you?
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Do you feel how this is great, my baby.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Start to finish.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's that.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I think maybe some entrepreneurs also kind of feel like it's your baby, and that's sort of what I feel when I work in.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I've had a couple of startups that have worked for that.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it and it really felt like it's my company as well.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: So you really do pit your heart and soul into it and for me personally, that's something I probably need, you really want to, at least for me.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I want to work somewhere, work and actually feel that I'm part of something, instead of just like a nine to five job that I go to and leave close the back door again.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So for me personally, that's a very important part that fulfilling this and that sort of ownership and I guess one of the bits that it does make me think of is that sense of belonging we have when we're in football, when we're in sport, that team, that joint purpose.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: So I suppose let's wind back a bit.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: For you then, this the journey to how we got to here, and talking about the impact, I guess, the fulfilment that you have in your role today looking after growth.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: So for you, sports for you as a young lady growing up, what was sport for you?
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Well, it was basically everything.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I started from a very young age playing football.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I was four years old Basically it's my dad played, my brother's played on the wall, obviously older than I was.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: I just enjoyed it a lot, became fanatical, playing outside, going to training, all this kind of stuff, and at the moment you notice that you're really good at something and you sort of hang on to that as well, because it's fulfilling to be really good at something and to get admiration for that.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: So that's something that has always drive me as well.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: In football, being the best at something, I think that's something also take with me in my current situation.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: It's almost addictive in a way.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I like that, that addictive nature.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: So it's addictive being good at something, being a master at something that's what you're saying, but then also feeling a sense of becoming the best as well.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the funny thing is like I used to be a goalkeeper, so I used to be a very specific master of something like a specialist.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: But in my current role I'm actually more of a generalist where I do a lot of things but I'm never a specialist in anything, except for sort of managing the whole lot.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: But the fulfilling part, I think, or at least the part that I connect to within my current role is doing it as a team.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: So for me it still feels like I'm playing a competition where we have to win and especially in startup, like if you, you have to be good every day, otherwise you don't have like a business in a year or so, because that's the reality of working at a startup.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: And that's sort of the same that there is interesting for you to say and no one said that to me before as a startup, it's you got to be good every day.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: You've got to show up and bring your A game, and that's what it was like as a footballer.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I played at Ajax at a given moment and that was the top team, you know, the top club in the country, one of the top teams in the world.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't go to play for such a club and not bring your A game every day, so you kind of have to show up every day and obviously that's really hard and it's impossible to be top every day, but it should be your aim and that's also what you know.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I try to do my work as well, like there are going to be days that I don't feel great, but I'm going to try and push myself through to at least, you know, to get to the seven or eight that I need to be every day.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: So tell me, you mentioned before that addictive nature, that desire to be good at something.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: What is it that helps you to realize you were good at football?
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Probably other people saying or telling you that you're good.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: There's a don't know how it is set up in other countries, but in the Netherlands, like before, you get to like national teams.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: They're like district teams and you get sort of selected and the younger you are, they're like the more local those districts are and they sort of become more like statewide and then they go country wide.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: So that's the first step that you take.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: When you're like 11 years old, you get selected for such a team and then you get selected with the best in your region and then you kind of figure out okay, I'm actually really good at what I'm doing and I was a goalkeeper and those are pretty rare at the time.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: So if you're good at that, you really stand out, which was the case with me.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, and so that, well, like you say so, you were good.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: You went to that next level.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: I'm getting a sense there's a good competitive edge that came through.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: What was that like for you then at IAX, when you're playing?
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Well, in fact, talk to you about the IAX experience.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: What were you?
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Is this you as a 15 year old?
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Is this you as an adult?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: What are you at IAX?
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so IAX women's team joined in 2012.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: So then there were was already other teams that we were playing for like other than Haag and other Dutch clubs, and so they joined in 2012.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: They basically took almost all the best players that they wanted, including myself.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: At the time I was 20, I think 1920.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: At that time I was like a very talented sort of upcoming goalkeeper trying to knock on the national teams door.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: So it made sense, like I come from the region I live in Amsterdam, so it made sense to also select me and it was really nothing that we none of us had ever experienced before.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Like you were playing for the biggest club.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: It was our dream.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Just the sponsorship so I already does.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Like the clothes and stuff was amazing.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: But a side note is we did play like we didn't get paid or there was still very much a 5050 culture within the club that wasn't happy for us being there because we were women.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: So there's always been a still a feminist sort of struggle within football.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: But the IAX experience in general was kind of nice.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, just playing for your dream club was the most amazing feeling ever, having these fans that did want you there.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: So, no, it's pretty cool.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what were you aiming for when you were there?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: What did you aspire to achieve as a footballer?
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: My dream, for some reason, had always been winning the Champions League above, like World Cup or European Cup.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but for some reason that was something that I always dreamt of and that's something we were far, far from, because the national competition in the Netherlands isn't as great as in like Germany, france or England, spain.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: That was something that I aspired.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: We didn't even think qualify in the four years that I played there, which was a shame, but still the end champions of the Netherlands, which also didn't work out.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't the most fruitful four years, but, yeah, those were my aspirations at the time.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, wonderful.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: So you talk about not getting paid to be a footballer.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: So what were you doing outside of training?
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: So at the time I was still finishing my studies.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of us, we either studied or we had a little job next to it, because we all knew like now it's fairly different, you could live off it in some cases, but at the time you know, you knew yet there was going to be a career after or next to your football career.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: So that was I was doing my marketing studies at the time, sort of making a plan in my head Okay, once all of this is over, I want to probably.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: At the time I was like a big eye, I did a fan, I thought maybe there could be a connection there.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I was like 20, 20 at the time when I started for IAACS.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: So it's still a long way to go.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I like the way you say that.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I think for many 20 year olds listening, they're thinking I'm already there.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what I'm doing, I have the plan, I'm just going to get that done.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Instead Sounds like you had a level of maturity perhaps beyond your years.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: So I'm curious then.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: So you knew that at that time, football was always going to have to be alongside a career, alongside a more traditional way of working, and it sounds like for you at the time, it was marketing.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: So what happened?
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Why aren't you playing today?
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: What's going on?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: So when I was 20 and making this plan, I didn't realize that at 24, I would have to end my career due to an injury.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I was just going to leave IAACS on my way to sign with probably my dream club, Olympia Pliu.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I never thought it would ever happen, like as a third goalkeeper, second goalkeeper and when I was there one way ticket like my first training I went, I twist my ankle severely and tore it off like it was completely blue and it was just before I had signed, so they couldn't keep me on, which meant that I had to go into recovery by myself with no club, had to have an operation where it was very doubtful if I could ever play again, kind of thing.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: So I finished off my studies, went to the States to see if I could still play a bit and came back with a decision to end my career and try and make the best out of this other career in marketing or at least just in work in general, because I had no idea really.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Like I studied marketing because I had to do something.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I thought that was a good idea and I liked it, but once you stop playing football, it's a lot to figure out.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: How did you figure that out, Laura?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Honestly, it wasn't just like I woke up one day and I'm going to work on a tech startup kind of thing.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I started working when I came back from Florida.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: At the time I just found a job at Under Armour in a financial role just to earn money, and I knew that wasn't the job that I wanted but needed something for the time.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: And then I started looking for marketing sales roles, found one, and that's how I sort of progressed to where I am now.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I landed from a job there, I landed into a tech industry role or at least tech startup, an agency helping tech startups and since then I fell in love with the industry, with the startup life, with growth, marketing sales for those types of companies.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: So during that period, emotionally, what was that like for you having to, I guess, walk away, hobble away from your football career?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: It was very hard to be honest and it took me a while to accept the fact, especially because the year that I quit was 2017.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Just that summer, the Dutch national team women's team became European champions.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: So everywhere that I went or worked or people would ask me hey, do you know this name or that name?
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, those are literally people that I used to play with or you guys grew up with or are my friends.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: I lost my entire identity because all my friends were all of a sudden well-known, famous people and nobody knew who I was.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: And it was very confronting, like I did not make that cut or I have to now do a financial job here at Under Armour.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: It was rough and it took me quite a while to accept it, because you did something you loved, you were really good at it and you had to sort of come to terms with the fact that you would never do that again ever and that dream that you once had will never be fulfilled.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: And that is pretty tough.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: If you've been doing that for the last I don't know 20 years, you know that's what you've been working on.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: So it was rough.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, during that period.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: What was the biggest struggle for you at that time?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: What was the hardest thing to go through?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: So I guess, as I said, like coming to terms but also work, like keeping yourself motivated to work through it and find that new passion.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So, like the first two jobs I had, honestly I didn't really like that much and I was really struggling because I thought, ah, I could also be standing on a football field.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Did I make the right choice?
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Did I?
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: You know, shouldn't I have tried and I tried and come to terms with myself?
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: No, you made a choice because you would, you know, you were injured.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: You're not going to be the best version of yourself on the field anymore, so you have to become this other version of yourself for the future, and that takes time until I found a job that I really got excited about, as I said, in the tech industry, and started to see this future for myself, where I thought, oh, I can actually become really good at this and I can probably create my new stage with this and become that competitive person again and do what I love.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I love that I love the way you said create your new stage and new place for you to play and to perform as an actor in this regard, being true to yourself, but it's still that stage for you to put on that wonderful performance again.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: What you said, which was interesting, was coming away from football meant you were not was because you weren't able to be that best version of yourself.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And so those first two jobs you just didn't didn't sync with you.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: You weren't enjoying them.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: You didn't enjoy them, in fact, and so, as you then started to see through the growth startup, there was this opportunity for you to find something else that you were passionate about, indeed, perhaps something else that energized you to go ahead and perform.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: What do you think it was about the industry back then that made you go ah, hey, I can do this.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: If I like compared it to the previous things that I did, like job wise.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's also the fast pace.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I learned so much in such a short pace of time.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I saw so much more progress in what I was doing.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: So I noticed that I felt excited about making that progress.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I saw the cool things that were happening in the industry and how people were talking about it.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: It just got me very excited.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like this very slow, corporate kind of thing.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: No, it was all these people with great ideas just going forward and posting, pitching, doing things sort of didn't go well, did go well, but people were just, you know, doing things and that got me really excited and full to myself.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, I can hop on this train and be part of this and have fun with it.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it looks like you are having fun with it, which is great.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: When you spoke about being good at football, I asked you how did you know?
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it's because you know you described to me one.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: People told you that you're good.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And secondly, you could see this progression from your local club to the district, region, county, to get to that IACS, to that national level.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: How does that compare to the industry or to the role that you're in today?
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good question.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: So I think, like if I look back at where I started, like as in somebody who works within a team or gets managed or stuff there was this one founder, david from Djogo like two companies before this who was actually my client at my previous company and I have a lot to thank to him.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: He basically took me and said okay, you're going to do our marketing and whatever else was a data football startup, so it matched perfectly and he gave me all the confidence in the world, although I knew, and he knew, I wasn't maybe the best at the time.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: But he gave me that confidence and he made me feel better about myself and he made me feel that I could do stuff.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: So he progressed my sort of career as well and my current job.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I actually working with the same sort of founder who's giving me that same confidence and is making me progress a lot more, because they're giving me that time and space, but also putting faith in me, and I think that's also what happened when I was young.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: You know, people put faith in me.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: They sold my talent and then over time, over 20 years of time, I became really good.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: So that's also how I'm trying to look at this now I'm good at my job, but I'm not that I don't have that.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: 20 years in my backpack that's going to make me that best.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: So I also understand it's going to be a journey, in fact, for me.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: I have people around me that believe in me that let me grow and give me the sort of tools to grow and progress.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: So that's why I sort of know okay, I'm doing a good job, I'm on the right path.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I still need a lot to learn, but I'm getting validation.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And that's great, that validation that you say you're getting, because you talk about that need for feedback, that need for guidance in order for you to be able to become a master at your trade.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: It's odd, there's a sense of humility in that approach that you've just described there, one that we don't always put to athletes.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: We never really put them as humble individuals.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: But what you've described there is this desire to learn, this desire to get better incrementally, not just every job, but, you said, every day.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: How do I improve myself every day and move forward?
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: So, in this growth, in this startup context, wow, that must mean you're really demanding on your boss to say, hey, how did we do?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: How did we do?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Did he move forward?
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Is that what it's like to work with you?
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Laura, I think so, but I think, if you're like, at least the partners that I've worked with are very demanding themselves and I think that's what I've been enjoying a lot Like.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: I think I'm a better person or more how do you say I can reflect a little bit better than when I was young.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: When you're young, still sort of stuck in your own ways, you want to do better, but it's a bit more complicated at times.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: So now this sort of being very open and honest with each other and sort of strict really works well for me, Because there's no like, how do you say, beating around the bush and we can really get to things.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: So we're demanding on both sides because we both want to win.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: We sometimes make jokes about how we're playing Champions League, so we're not playing some stupid little league, we're playing the best league and we need to perform.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: This is good.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: So you are still competing for that Champions League win that is, you know, part of your dream.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: So it's still going.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I like the way you described that.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I like the way you talk about that being demanding on both sides.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: When you look back, then, at what helped get you to where you are and I mean on the field as well and in the roles that you're in what do you recognize is common amongst those managers?
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, creating a common goal.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: So if you feel like there's being something demanded from you just because it's being demanded or it's just for one person, but if you have a common goal, it becomes really easy, right.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: And if the playing field is leveled which I feel in my current work is a lot more than I used to experience sometimes with trainers now the level feels far more, the playing field is far more leveled, it feels more like okay, we both decided that we want this, so I can hold you accountable and you can hold me accountable, and that's, I think, the main thing that we used to have in football as well among teammates.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: We could be very direct with each other because we agreed upon the same goal we both want to become champions.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: So and you agreed that you're going to do your role and I'm going to do my role, so if you're slacking or if I'm slacking, we can Tell each other.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm kind of with that and I'm reflecting myself and it's like, yeah, what you've described there is on a field it's in sport that team comes together, certainly if it's at a high performance or elite level, and whilst there is a sense of selection by a coach or by a manager to pull those team together, that team together, there is an element of, I guess, self identification to say, hey, I want to be picked, I want to be part of this team.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: So either I'll trial or I will do my effort to demonstrate I want to be part of this team.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: And what you're describing is in a startup environment, or certainly in environments where you thrive, where you're living today, there is this dual sense of hey, if you applied for this role, let me be really clear about what it's like to work with me and what it's like to work in this company.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: And so you get in this kind of dual buy in so that you give them one another the right to be demanding to one another to operate at that high performance level.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, 100%.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: The way I see it, if you work for, like, an entrepreneur or a startup and you agree to do the job for them, you have to understand that it's an own and say, like matter of life or death.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: But it is very vulnerable, like if you don't do your job very well, you're costing the company, the startup or the entrepreneur a lot of money for time that they actually needed from you and which they're not getting, and that is could potentially cause the company to fall over, whereas if you would work in a more stable company, you know if you're slacking a bit or if you're not doing it, it's less recognizable and it won't matter as much.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: So I do feel that if you make that commitment, you should really also go for it, and I think a lot of people don't understand what it means to work in a startup or it's a lot of pressure, which I like and enjoy, but that's also something for us to sort of properly communicate.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: But it also goes for the same experiences and football as well.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: You've chosen to play here, so now you have to give it.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: You know you can't just be here for the name.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: You actually have to want this and that's, I think really important in our day to day.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, do you say?
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Very matter of fact, it's like, hey, this is what it's like.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Get over it.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: You got to deal with this.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: If you're going to work with me, this is what it's going to be like.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: It does seem as though you're quite upfront in terms of setting that up, though, with individuals.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: So it leads me, then, to ask in your current role as you're part of this team, what do you think, I suppose, what do you think is the hardest part of your job today?
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's still aligning everybody on like or getting people on board to do stuff and understand as well Because this is a conversation I often have in my previous roles as well with founders is making everybody understand like it does really matter and we don't.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: We don't get around, we don't have a culture of like working 80 hours a week and I think should be doable in the time that you do, but just more commitment from okay, I need ownership from you.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I can't create every task for you and same goes for me and I can talk about it now in that way.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: But when I first started working I see my first like work in startup I was like, oh wait, this is something else is being asked from me.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: So I also had to adapt and change because I had learned something very else in my previous jobs.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: So I think, getting everybody to understand okay, this is a chance and an opportunity for you to grow and progress in the company or grow and progress as a company, but you do need to adapt a little or like take ownership and that mindset, training that mindset.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can say that training that mindset is hard.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: So how did you deal with that at the start?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: I don't think I had like the best sort of experience that I would advise other people to have my father.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: At the time we butted heads quite a bit, but I don't know, because I was like in football you also have to kind of be direct with each other, which is fine.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: So I think I just got very direct feedback constantly until I sort of listen or until I took that too hard.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: So, as I say, it wasn't the best, I wouldn't advise that.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: But we got a lot.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: We had a lot of a love hate relationship, but it worked out.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: What is it you wouldn't advise?
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I think getting too direct or too strict or too sort of nailing down on somebody's mistakes instead of focusing on like okay, this is.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Focus more on what the common goal is make people understand that there's an opportunity, make people understand that it's also an own choice to be made, but don't focus on the negative too much.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And I guess that that criticism so what you're saying there is building one another up and in order to move towards that common goal is a good thing doing it in a negative way was actually more harmful.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: That stopped you really being able to learn and move forward into that role.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well for me like it worked out, because I guess I was used to like hearing that very tough feedback from football.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: When the ball slips, when the ball goes in that you're near post, the crowd's gonna react, the manager's gonna react.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Your fullback is gonna look at you like what are you doing, right?
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing right.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: For me it was very common and normal and I was used to get angry and I used to turn that anger into productivity, because that's sort of how I used to deal with things.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: And when I had that first experience I was like, oh, this is this how things maybe get done.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: And then I realized and my role as a manager once myself that I can't be that tough with people because people don't have that experience and people will feel attacked or upset or so I had to learn that.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie, that wasn't my best approach at times because I had a bit of a mentality kind of like I'm doing this as well, so come on, because you're also a bit stressed and you want things to happen.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: So fortunately, I've learned from that.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's been a ride.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: So that's good and thanks for sort of getting that bit more specific on there.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: In terms of you, I guess, spraying off at everybody when a mistake is made and for them it's a new thing, you know, for you as an elite athlete coming from that, hey, you made a mistake, yeah, everyone's gonna swear at you and come at you and do all of that, and then we're gonna keep going towards it, towards that goal of winning the game or whatever that might be.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: So you said you had to learn.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: How did you learn?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Were you taught or did you just start to see, oh, they quit, they quit Hmm, maybe it's me here.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: What was your process of learning?
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: So fortunately people don't.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: They didn't quit.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: It wasn't that bad.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I think the process was multiple things at first, because it was almost like realizing, okay, I got spoken to like that at my previous startup.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Did I actually really enjoy that?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: No, it worked for me sometimes self-reflection.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Then also the founder I was working for at the time also saying to me like at the new one yeah, take it easy, you can handle that kind of talk, but not everybody can.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, that's true.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Self-reflection, and also maybe just looking at not getting it didn't help.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: It wasn't getting more out of these people, maybe even less.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: So then I thought, okay, this isn't working.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: They are not the same as me or some other colleagues.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I need to handle this differently, because for some it did work.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Like you know, you motivate and just tell them hey, this really wasn't good, I need you to do more work for some, and for some it had to be a more gentle approach.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: So what I've basically learned is that there are different people, obviously, and they have different ways of working and as a manager, you have to sort of feel that like, what does everybody need and how do you handle that and how do you get the best set of people.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that was my journey on learning.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Those are some good points.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: You mentioned there being receptive to feedback from others.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: So I managed you telling you.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: You also spoke about self-reflection in terms of learning and thinking, well, is it just me?
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: What about other people?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And then you also looked at the outcome.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: You weren't getting the outcome that you wanted, so your behavior towards someone didn't result in the outcome that, well, anyone wanted really.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: So then you had to start to adapt and so I think, just breaking down those things in order to help you really learn how to become a manager, become a leader, those steps I think are quite important really, just to you know, just to dwell on, just to think about and say, yeah, okay, that's what you did, it's interesting.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: So now, as a leader in this startup world, being a key part of the team, suppose I'm just curious.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Just flipping back, what role does sport play in your life today?
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: It has shaped me a lot.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: It has given me, I think, certain talents and also knowledge that I take in my day-to-day work.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: I think it's given me an experience that I've experienced, something that only a very small part of the population has experienced, although at the time, my entire world experienced it, because that's what all my friends did, but it's given me a wider view of the world, wider view of people in general.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: You get out of your current bubble because you play with everybody from all over the world and I think today I'm still you know, a lot of my friends still play, my friends that are like reporters on TV, so that's sort of the connection that I still have.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I talk to them about it.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Not so long ago I was invited to talk on the radio, so there's still some connection there.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think not as much as maybe sometimes I would like, but it's also okay.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so listen, if you had to change, if you had to change one thing in your history, yet remain where you are today, what would that one thing be?
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I think probably the moment.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Oh no, it's a hard one actually.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: So I got injured twice in a severe moment.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: One was before the European championships and I didn't get to go when I was 19 or just a moment before.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I got to sort of sign for Leo, which was pretty cool and would have been pretty fun and probably made my dream to win the Champions League come true.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: So I probably choose that one, yeah.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: To have avoided the injury, I'm sure the wish of many people.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: But I too have a soft spot for Leon Olympic Leon here, having lived there for a couple of years myself, and you know I think as a club it's pretty cool.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And actually, now, being in Australia, I do recognise Ellie Carpenter is there at Leon, so she therefore by default becomes my favourite Australian player because she's probably one of my favourite clubs.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: So I'll give her that as well, and you know so, I guess, for you now, as you look at where you are today and you think about your friends who are, I guess, still playing, they're going to be listening to this and, although they may never ask you directly or not yet, they'll say how can I transition better, how can I make sure that they learn from the struggles that you've gone through in terms of your transition?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: What would you say to them?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: What would you say if they asked you how can I set myself up best for my life after the game?
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, especially the coming to terms and accepting, which might be a bit easier for them because they finish their career in a natural way, but I think it's still will be hard and to sort of come to terms with that as soon as you can not saying that you have to forget about where all of it, but not hanging too much onto what was and looking at your new talents and looking into how can you use what you've learned and what you've experienced for your next career, because there's a lot of opportunity there and it's exciting to learn and evolve again.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is that excitement and I guess it's leaning into that excitement and getting ready to, as you say, evolve and find your second win.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: There is probably one it's another exciting period on exciting chapter of one's life.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: So I think those are wise words, laura, and I want to say thank you very much for joining me on the show today, really appreciate understanding Not just your story but, I think, the perspective and the steps that you took.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: So thanks for sharing today, laura.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: You're welcome, it was really fun.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me Wonderful.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks a lot.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brooke Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: That's all from me.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Take it easy Until next time.