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The Stolen Choreography Scandal That is Rocking the Dance World · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's something most of us were taught from an early age.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Stealing is wrong.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: But in recent months, several prominent choreographers, including our very own Courtney Ortiz, have discovered their choreography has been stolen and profited from on a global scale.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Today on Making the Impact, we're joined by several choreographers to talk about plagiarism in dance, why it's wrong, and how the industry is working to bring awareness to this problem.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, and welcome to season six of Making the Impact.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Miller.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Can you believe we are back at it again?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot believe it.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: We are back, and I'm so, so, so happy.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's been it feels like it's been forever.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a million years, except for also five minutes.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: The summer goes by so fast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It really does.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, we really have been having some non-summery weather too.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it really feels like okay, podcast season is here, the fall is here, dance season is here.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we're ready to jump right in.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this season is starting off with a bang with this episode, Courtney.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, everybody.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't even know where to begin.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: We have so much to cover in this episode.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if you were following along with me on social media this summer, you may have seen a lot of things happening.
• 1:43
  unknown: A lot.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of things happening.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point, as of this recording and as of this release, all of the crazy drama has been going on for roughly a month and change.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna dive into what exactly is going down, which involves stolen choreography.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was impacted by my choreography being stolen by someone internationally.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that was revealed and discovered over the summer.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a journey.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, not only myself, but many, many other choreographers have also had their work stolen from this same individual.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we knew, you know, Leslie and I mapped out season six way early back in June.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: We already had everything mapped out for the season.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: On it.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: We were ready.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: We were like done.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: We have this scheduled, and then July happened.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think that's where your summer went, honestly.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're you spent your summer dealing with this plagiarism issue.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then we had, we decided we had to have this as our first episode of the season because it's just that important.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: We decided to to nix our plans for the first episode, and here we are with the new first episode because we've we really felt like it was important to bring to light the issues with plagiarism in our industry, even though we have talked about this multiple times.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we have.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those things that I think the more you talk about it, the more people understand, hey, this actually is a problem.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't just sweep it under the rug.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I'm sure many of our listeners may remember last year, actually at the end of season four, we completed season four.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was another stolen choreography scandal that was hitting social media with Jason Williams and Jared Baker, where they spoke out about their experiences, and we brought them onto the podcast for a summer bonus episode where we talked about this exact topic.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then fast forward to almost exactly one year later, this is now happening to me personally.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember reaching out to you, Leslie.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know what?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: We can't not talk about this on the podcast.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: This was such a big deal.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: It still is a big deal.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: We are kind of creating a movement a bit in the dance world and creating a lot of necessary change when it comes to this issue at hand.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we knew we had to talk about it on our own podcast since it impacted us directly.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So here we are.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're about to, we're about to let y'all have it.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're about to let you have it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I mean, I think we'll talk about this once we get really into it, but the we are at at a very interesting point in the dance community as a whole in history, because it's, you know, dance has never been so accessible.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Dance used to be here one minute and then it was gone because you performed it and then it was gone.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't a recording of it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: There was no way to verbatim, I don't even know what the physical version of the word verbatim is, because it's not words, but whatever, verbatim copy something because it was here and then it was gone.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: But now we live in a world where everyone has easy access to something they can replay.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that means that our listeners, students specifically, but you know, teachers and educators and everybody, they're going to be a part of that future that is only going to continue to have that available.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if you're not talking about plagiarism and you're not talking about why stealing choreography is wrong, you're maybe you won't know.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: You might think it's a normal thing to do.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: It could be become normalized because it's we've never had the opportunity to even do it before.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: We certainly didn't.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Courtney and I and everybody in our age bracket, you know, YouTube was barely a thing when we were finishing our dance careers as kids, as teenagers.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even think it was a kid a thing at all at the time.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just it's really an interesting topic.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm excited to hear from our guests today who have also been impacted and just really get some feedback from listeners too.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're excited to hear from you once you once you hear what we have to say.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And before we jump into this very important first episode of Making an Impact season six, uh let's hear from our fabulous sponsors.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Roots Dance Summit, powered by Francisco Gella Dance Works, aims to create a vibrant and inclusive community for dance studios by emphasizing artistic excellence and empowering young dancers.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is a new groundbreaking educational and competitive experience for studio communities, uniting dancers, parents, teachers, and directors.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Their program balances healthy competition with celebration and community building through inspiring workshops and holistic seminars.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Open to dancers ages 10 through 18.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: The competition portion of the event highlights traditional codified genres of dance, like ballet, modern, contemporary, improvisation, and jazz.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Roots Dance Summit offers a comprehensive educational experience for studios, promoting team unity and self-assurance.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Their inaugural season in 2025 will host two events in Phoenix, Arizona, and Montgomery, Alabama.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Registration is now open.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Visit their website to learn more and register for an upcoming event at RootsDance Summit.com.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Young Arts is an organization that supports artists across 10 different disciplines, including dance.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Their national arts competition is open to artists ages 15 to 18 or currently in grades 10 through 12, where selected winners can receive cash awards, mentorship from leaders in the industry, a lifetime of professional support, and the prestigious honor of being a young arts winner.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Competition finalists in their senior year are further eligible for nomination as a U.S.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Presidential Scholar in the Arts, one of the nation's highest honors for high school students.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: As a previous Young Arts winner myself, I highly recommend that you check out this fantastic program, an opportunity for your dancers.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It truly is life-changing.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: The deadline to apply for their 2025 national arts competition is October 17th, 2024.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Mark your calendars and learn more about Young Arts now.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: To start your application today, click the link in our show notes or head to their website at youngarts.org slash apply.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right, listeners, it's time to jump into our first episode of season six on making the impact.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And boy, this is a hot one.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: One of the hottest topics that we've probably ever covered.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And fun fact, we've already covered this topic multiple times actually on the podcast throughout all of our seasons.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: But now we're here today sitting down with the choreographers who have been directly impacted by a stolen choreography scandal that has taken place globally around the world.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is a huge, huge issue.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: This all went down over the summer, and it also directly impacted me as a choreographer as well.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually the one that kind of brought this to light, and I'm gonna share that story with you right here on the podcast.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is our very first time all sitting down and openly talking about this out into the public.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to be here with some fantastic new friends of mine, old friends of mine, and people who I've admired and looked up to in the industry for so many years.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic choreographers are joining us today, and we have three brand new guests to the podcast.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: The first person that I'm excited to welcome to the podcast is a longtime friend of mine because I have actually had the opportunity to teach alongside them at a Revel Dance Convention for many, many years.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've taken their class through the years, I've auditioned for them, and boy, is their choreography the best.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: They are a working Broadway choreographer, and they even have Smash on Broadway coming to the scene very, very soon.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to welcome the one, the only Josh Burgas to the podcast.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Josh.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Courtney.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: Good to be here.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So happy to be here with you.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it was such a blast working alongside you through our years at Revel and uh get to know you even more.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also really sorry that this has happened to both of us with our stolen choreography, but I'm grateful that you're here today to shed some light on the issue and talk about it openly.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, Josh, if you wouldn't mind telling the world more about you, where you grew up, a few career credits, what you're currently working on now.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: I grew up at my mother's dance school in Michigan, just outside of Detroit.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: So, like my first pair of tattoos was, you know, I was three years old and I was just like the little brat of the studio running around and you know, dancing like for five minutes in one class and then jumping to another room going to five minutes in another class.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then um, you know, I stayed, I I I grew up there, I started teaching there, I started choreographing there and competitions and recitals and galas and all that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: And then and then, you know, I wanted to like dance professionally, so I moved to New York and started dancing professionally on Broadway and tours and things like that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: And then as I got a little older, I I would like um I also taught in New York too.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: That was kind of like my my my you know day job.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: It was like my waiting tables.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: I would teach at like Broadway Dance Center and stuff like that.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: So then, you know, as I got a little older, I started to transition into choreography, which was hard because you had to um kind of start from scratch again.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you were, you know, I thought I was having a performer's life with you know, being on Broadway and doing all these great jobs, and then you kind of had to start at the bottom again as a choreographer and work your way up.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: So that was it was challenging.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: And at the same time, I was always teaching and I still teach, you know, like you said, we were just teaching on Rebel together for you know years, and uh I still teach at like the studios in New York and I travel and the conventions, and I love it.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: I just love it so much, and I love sharing and educating and still choreographing as well.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: So um now, you know, my next project, like you said, is um, you know, I had worked on the TV show Smash, and now we are developing it for this Broadway stage, which is super exciting.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we'll open next spring.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's so exciting, and I love hearing that.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone's been dying and waiting for Smash to come to Broadway, you know, since the show came out.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's like, when's it hitting Broadway?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's finally here, like 15 years later, 10 years later, something, yeah, pretty close.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but right about that, like 12 years later.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the idea was that it was gonna be after every season, whatever show we did that season, then we would pop on Broadway.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: That's what the producers thought.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_04: And it was like, yeah, it's not quite that easy.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it actually takes about 10 to 12 years to do that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_04: So here we are, 12 years later, finally doing it on Broadway.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Josh, thank you so much for being here today and shedding some light on this and all the work that you do in the industry.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: My pleasure.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Our next special guest is someone who honestly is one of the top Broadway dancers in the city right now.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: She has graced the Broadway stage so many times.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Her talent is out of this world.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a such a big fan.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in audition rooms with her.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can't wait to get into her class at Steps on Broadway sooner than later.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And she's back on Broadway this season as well.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to welcome the Broadway legend, Sarah Meal, to the podcast.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Sarah.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Ms.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Courtney.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's so nice to be looking at you.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've, I think we started auditioning together like, you know, 12 years ago, which is how I think I know you.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just you know, the small chorus girl ECC holding rooms, callback, sort of things.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you never really know how you know everyone, but thank you.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good to be with this group of friends who I've known for so long and have worked with all of you.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Sarah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: I am a dancer first and foremost.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I was a dance competition kid.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: I competed for 10 years, you know, like show stop or stop, like all of the, you know, the big flashy ones.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: We had so much fun.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, then I went to school for musical theater and I got a dance minor.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I showed up in New York, and I've been there for 12 years and worked, you know, a lot with Josh and Ricky.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I'm about to start my fifth graduate show.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: I started teaching, you know, kind of like what Josh said, instead of waiting tables, I really love to teach.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: I started teaching tumbling.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I started my teaching journey.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was teaching little kids tumbling on the upper west side.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then I started teaching from my Broadway repertoire.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: And next thing you know, during the pandemic, there I am making up choreography.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I never really thought of myself as someone who might choreograph.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, once you turn on the creative valve, it's hard to turn it off.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And now I really look forward to it and I love it and I crave it and I want to collaborate and I want to dance.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's sort of how I wound up doing most of my teaching was through the pandemic, really getting in there and figuring out how to teach and then how to choreograph.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then I started teaching at steps soon after, and now I teach at Broadway Dance Center, and um, and now uh I like choreograph and direct for different theme parks.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where I am now.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I the world is my oyster.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of big plans.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you do.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna you're gonna take over the dance world.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: You already have, and I'm a big fan of all that you're doing, and I really appreciate you being here today and can't wait to come see you on Broadway again.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Court.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Our final guest who is joining us here is someone who actually, you know what?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Fun fact, I have never taken their class and I'm sad about it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was gonna go to their spotlight class that's happening at Steps on Broadway, but I'm gonna be out of town because I'm always out of town and I'm I'm still sad about it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm getting into his class, ASAP, and I've been admiring him from a distance for so many years.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: He is a talented choreographer and dance educator, and he has been by my side through this entire thing from the very beginning because he has been impacted the most out of all of us from not just one person but two people in this stolen choreography scandal.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I am very excited to welcome Richard J.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hines to the podcast.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Richard.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, hello, hello.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: I guess it's my turn to tell my legacy life story.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, world.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: I grew up in Connecticut as a dance competition kid.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: My uncle and aunt actually met on a cruise ship and they were dance partners.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: My aunt is British, my uncle American.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: They got married, opened a dance studio.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I trained similarly to Josh under the family uh eye, grew up doing dance competitions, and then spent my high school years at Interlock and Arts Academy in Michigan, which is a boarding arts high school.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: I then auditioned for eight schools for musical theater and got rejected from every single one of them.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I moved to New York when I was 17 and just made my own school, which included taking Josh's class, and got my own acting teacher, my own voice teacher, and just sort of paved my own journey and career, did the performing thing, but always was most passionate about the creativity and uh that side of the table.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: So very quickly in my career, career transitioned into creative work, doing choreography, directing a lot of associate work.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I am about to start rehearsals on my sixth Broadway show as an associate uh for ELF the Musical, uh, which we're doing this winter on Broadway.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing! And Richard, are you currently living in London or are you still in New York?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I actually live in London now.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: So my pandemic project was to apply for my visa, which I got.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: So my permanent residence is actually in London right now.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I just come back over for jobs and work, but um, I'm a Brit.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be Brit.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a Brit.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I want to be Brit.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you've taken over the dance scene here in New York City at teaching at Broadway Dance Center and also Steps, but now you're also teaching over in the UK at a lot of their professional studio spaces as well.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so Pineapple, uh, which is their sort of parallel to Broadway Dance Center and Steps.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: I work there and uh there's several new studios that are popping up uh as well.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: The manor and bass, uh, which are really great studios as well over there that I teach at as well.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm sure we're gonna dive into more of the details as far as what exactly is going down.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And Leslie, my fantastic co-host, is here also to almost become the host for the rest of this episode because I'm sort of a guest and uh someone who has also been impacted and gonna be sharing a lot.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So let's jump into this.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have so much to cover.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, awesome.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, thank you guys all for making the time to be with us today for this really important conversation.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I also just want to just shout out the fact that you all were comp kids.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: You all grew up just like everybody who listens to us, taking ballet, taking tap, taking jazz, taking acro.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's possible.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Parents out there listening, all three of these people came from a dance studio just like your kids are in a dance studio.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And look at what they're doing.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like the career can be had.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to want it and you just have to put in the effort and the time.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to make sure that everybody heard that because that's really important and that's such a big part of what we do is try to make sure that people know this isn't just a pipe dream.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a dream that people have and you can you can make it happen.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: However, a dream that none of us have had is having our stuff stolen.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: That sucks.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's wrong and it's unfair, and we're here to talk about that today.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to start from the beginning because I know a lot of our listeners haven't.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't heard about this already, here we go.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: We got to give you a crash course on what went down in July.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Courtney, I'm gonna let you start because you are the person who figured it out, and then we will go from there.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that I'm even gonna start learning how we all started putting this puzzle together collectively because I don't even really know those details.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've all just kind of band together.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll try to keep this short, but there's a lot of details, and let's open this up.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I was actually going about my day, a usual day, and a friend of mine called me and was like, Hey, have you ever taught in Spain?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Well, I just found this guy's Instagram.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: It popped up on my algorithm.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So scrolling through Instagram reels, just you know, your morning scroll.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he initially heard this ABBA song that I've choreographed to Voulez Vu.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone knows it, popular song.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And he immediately recognized the choreography.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was a timing thing too, because Steps on Broadway just posted that same video of me two days prior.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think he saw that video, then two days later he sees on his algorithm like five guys dancing, my choreography identical.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: He like pulled up hit mine, he's comparing it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I think it's yours, I don't know.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just maybe you taught them.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Can you take a look?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I go and I look, and I was like, oh my God, what is who are these people?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've never taught them.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I click on the guy and he doesn't even follow me on Instagram.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just like, how did he even get my video?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is so crazy.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time when we discovered this, me and my friend, we were both freaking out, obviously.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm my heart is racing.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to feel.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I look on the comments, I'm not tagged anywhere, I'm not credited anywhere.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like the dancers are tagged, even the shoes are tagged, and I'm not tagged.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what's going on?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's crazy.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, at that time I felt a little upset about it, obviously, but I wasn't sure how I was gonna handle it until I started digging a little bit further and I started researching the guy, and I saw that he owns an entire studio.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: His name is Enrique, and he's in Spain and owns a studio space called Broadway House, which is actually similar to like a Steps on Broadway, Broadway Dance Center, Millennium style professional studio.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So he's the owner of it, he's the director.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, this is crazy that the director is okay with stealing my choreography and not crediting me or even telling me he's using it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started scrolling more on his Instagram just out of curiosity and started to hear another one of the songs that I've used a combo to.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I kept watching and noticed it was my choreography again.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, I felt targeted.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my gosh, he's just looking, he's ripping off all of my choreography.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was only like my musical theater stuff.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So in total, I found four combinations of mine that he had used that were publicly posted on his social media.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, I knew I was taking it to social media.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Media on my end because I didn't really know what else to do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that social media would do its thing, like it absolutely did.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that post at this time has 10 million views on Instagram.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: It went completely viral.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then it opened up this huge web where all of these other choreographers that are here with us today, and I think 12 others have also been exposed and impacted by this one single person.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So let's jump into how you all got involved into this and also when you found out.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: I remember seeing your post right up on the front end, like right when you posted it.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't even know how I sort of navigated my way into his collection of material, but I remember being like, this is this is crazy.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: This surely she's not the only one.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: And and I popped in and there it was, like uh one of my uh combos.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: But what was shocking was it was all my steps, but it said choreography by Enric, and it literally had an emoji of a brain, and then his name alongside of it.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then I was like, Whoa! So I also kept digging, and I think I found on his platform three.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I joined Dear Future Husband, that was a song.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: I joined uh Courtney's journey and and came on board and started tagging and announcing that you know she was not alone and that I had been, you know, used in this way as well.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And what was interesting for me, which I don't even know if I told all of you, Enric actually went to university in London.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: So when I posted, many of my colleagues were like, I know him, I've been in shows with him, I went to school with him.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: I wow, they knew him on a very personal level.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: So when I sort of announced that I had been, you know, affected by this as well, many of them sent him personal messages because they knew him on a very one of them was his teacher at university.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: And they were just mortified that somebody that knows this industry, like we know this industry, it it's he is not a dance studio owner, he is a professional artist that is a performer and core, like you know degrees, multiple degrees also.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know what you're doing, yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that was my journey.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, when I saw these brilliant collaborators that are on this podcast as well, affected.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then, as Courtney said, the 12 more, I was like, Oh, this is serious.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Who else wants to share?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go, Josh, in our sharing circle.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I remember I was sitting in auditions and then I started getting texts from Courtney and she was sending me videos.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: She's saying, Is this yours?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I think so.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's just I I it was I was I think I said I was like, it's just performed so poorly, it's hard to recognize.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think it is.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's true.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, Yeah, it's trying to be.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: And at the same time, like I uh I had a friend in town from Barcelona who owns a dance studio there and knows Enric or knows of him.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: I think he may even used to take at her school.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_04: And he and when I when I mentioned it, she was like, Oh, I knew there was something a little funny about him, or something like that.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: She was like, Yeah, that makes sense.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: That makes sense that that's happening.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: I see.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: So that's how I found out.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then um, I think for me it was like three routines plus like one eight of one routine, like it starts out with my choreography, and then I always joke, I was like, maybe his wi-fi ran out and he couldn't get the rest, so he had to he had to make up his own choreography after that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that I figured out that you were involved because someone commented on my initial post saying this guy also steals from other choreographers too.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how that opened it up for me.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then I messaged them and I said, who?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because they obviously knew who, and they said you.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I mean, one of those routines I've literally been teaching for 15 years.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's like one of those staples that like I'll do like I'll teach it like once or twice a year in my like open class.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: And so everybody who's ever taken with me has done this once.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: Ricky, you've definitely king of New York, you've definitely done that routine.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think of an old school video of you guys doing that back in the day.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like with a camcorder, you know.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, like it was like every of course, you know, don't do that one, don't steal that one that everybody knows.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Of all of the work.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right, right.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Not to get out get out of it or anything yet, but Josh or Courtney, what one of you just said, which which was really interesting, like Courtney, once you sort of like expose what's been really fascinating in my journey, and I'm interested to hear people's reactions as well, is I actually haven't had to do any of the digging.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: So many people have from these schools now have been sending us content, being like, oh, I think this is yours.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: This was taught on this day.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: They said they did it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: Here's a video of us doing it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: Here's another one, here's another one.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, what's been really beautiful about this is while I'm sure us three and everyone else affected feels quite vulnerable and a bit taken advantage of.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: I have never felt more supported by the dance community than I do right now, where people are just looking out for us and and, you know, asking what is the right thing to do now, because some of this material is on their reels, it's on their social media, you know, it's how they've been representing themselves as a dancer.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's been one of the really beautiful things that has come out of this.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: I've connected with people that I would have never had interacted with around the world that have been affected by this.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's how I found out was from Courtney and um via a friend who had seen my combo.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I had one piece of my choreography that I know of stolen by Henry.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so I had been like obviously on this watching all of this happen on the gram, you know, finding out about Choreo Gate 2024, like Courtney's Courtney's thing happened, and I had seen Ricky, I had already seen yours, and then it happened to Josh.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I texted Josh and I was like, I can't believe this is happening.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then, like literally a couple days later, Courtney's like, is this yours?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, similarly, you know, I click on the little reel, and it is my choreography of Sway by Rosemary Clooney, which is quite literally the hardest thing I've ever taught or have ever done.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's not even that it's like uh technically so hard, it's just a lot of things happening it's slow but quick, and it's just kind of like tedious to teach.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it was being taught by Enric with like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and Enric was like passionately in the background, like slamming out some of the nuanced beats that I honestly like didn't pick up in my like it was it was so done differently, but it was still mine.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Every step of it was mine.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the fancy little twirls were taken out, and it was it was done to accommodate, you know, like a more of a beginner level, but it was my choreo and my full trying to be my full dance.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, we that's when that started happening, and everyone was like, This is Sarah Meal choreography.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: And again, like Ricky was saying, so many dancers and students and friends were like, please give credit to uh Happy Meal.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is her dance, you know.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt so supported and and I hadn't known about that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't even know if there are others because suddenly all of his stuff was private, and so it was hard to access any of his stuff.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: You had to kind of scroll through the algorithms of what was going on in Madrid, and I honestly like like I think all of us don't have a ton of extra time to be doing that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm busy creating and teaching.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so I don't have time to keep scrolling through Madrid's algorithms on the gram.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure it's not the only thing, and and I it makes me sad, but that's how I ended up in this whole.
• 30:24
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• 31:30
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• 31:32
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• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know that there's a lot more that we didn't get to find out about because of how quickly he made things happen to hide.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Within like a few days.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would say it would take very long.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, pretty much like on my end, like the progression of how things went down for me was called him out on the first video.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't know that I knew that he stole three other combos of mine.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I did receive a message from him apologizing, saying he only that he only stole that combination.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: He's only used it a handful of times.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: He was really sorry, it won't happen again, essentially.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm reading that and I'm like, he doesn't even know that I know that he took three others.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if you if you already got caught with one, come clean with it all.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, come on.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I would have appreciated that a lot more, but I felt like the first apology was premature because he got caught with one and didn't think he was going to get caught with the rest.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time, he just deleted that one video on his feed.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then I posted all of the ones that I knew on my end that he stole.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And next thing you know, he's going through his feed, deleting as much as he can that he thinks isn't his.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually made a few other quote-unquote apologies on social media and then went private entirely.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand why, because I know he was probably receiving a lot of hate and unnecessary messages.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I do not support that.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel bad in that sense in so many ways, but you know how social media can get.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's very dangerous out there, and I understand and respect that.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that he decided to delete as much evidence as possible on his end, which made it hard for us to continue to try to find what else, because he's never openly shared what all he's stolen.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's still a mystery to so many of us.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you figure like he has, I mean, I I think Courtney for you too, but I know me personally because I looked at it, but I think the first combo he stole of mine was like four years ago, five years ago.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how long he's been on to all of us.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so to your point, we're talking years of content that he has pushed out that we don't even know about.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_04: And to make it clear just for this podcast, so that everybody understands, it's not just that he, you know, replicated these combos and taught them, it's that he he s basically said they were his combos and did not not only didn't mention us, but mentioned choreography by Enric and told everybody that it was choreography by Enric and was making money off right now in multiple ways.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Not in just the live classes where people came, paid money, took a class, but in his online platform, which also was a subscription-based platform where at least a couple of those combos existed and would have existed in perpetuity to make him money and to not make the original creator any money.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I personally, as an outsider to all of this, can't get over that part, is that like that could have just kept going and going and going and going, and who knows how much money he could have made.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he has two locations, two physical locations of Broadway House that he owns.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we covered how this all happened and we spoke a teeny whiny bit about how this made you feel.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's important for people to actually hear a little bit more about that because when we did our previous plagiarism episode, there was a lot of emotional upheaval for those two guys that had to deal with it.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd like to hear just a little bit more about how you how that made you guys feel and how you've kind of gotten through this process of knowing your integrity, your work, your create, your creative well has been stolen from.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_04: You feel you feel slightly violated, obviously.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_04: My first thought was, oh, isn't that funny?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then I realized, oh, this is more than just like he took a combination from me and a combination with Courtney.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: You realize like how big this is and how he's he's lying to his students and his followers, and that they don't deserve that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: Not only do we not deserve that, but they don't deserve that.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: And then you realize this isn't this is a problem.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_04: And if he's, you know, if he's doing it, somebody else somewhere is doing it more than, you know.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: So then it it's it felt like not only do we have to do something about that, but we just have to like, we have to bring this out into the open as much as possible and talk about it.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: We have a responsibility to, as educators, to like educate our students and our community to make sure that everybody is basically participating in this experiment of like putting choreography online and trusting with a sense of integrity because we can't Courtney doesn't have the time to like go through everybody's Instagram all over the world, you know.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Except she has been doing it somehow.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like this woman has been not sleeping to be looking on the internet.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: People deserve to know what's going on.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, so it's it's like there's a there's like a weight to it of like uh like a weightiness of of it's not and it's not just even though there's a personal part of it, but there's something that's like I feel like bigger, and I I know like I I think we all feel that that there's a responsibility for us to to like and listen, I didn't want this responsibility, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_04: But but we just have to we have to accept it.
• 37:07
  unknown: Right.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and like it's it's like the saying, you know, if not us, who?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: If not now, when like here we are.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I guess we're doing this now.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: So and you know, I I and Courtney, I think Courtney and I have chatted a lot about this and we've done some interviews that we've shared.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, one thing I've said a million times over is I love when people reach out and ask if they can learn something off of social media.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, nine out of ten times, not only will I sort of approve that request, but I'll be like, look, if you're using that for real, send it back to me.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'll send you some thoughts and like I like to collaborate and participate in that because I understand that you know, we're not accessible to everyone around the world.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I would love for people to, if they see something they're inspired by, that they want to participate in to give them that opportunity and that experience.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think for me, the biggest thing that like affected me was the fact that this gentleman and another gentleman that I was affected by were blatantly taking artistic life, you know, control of my property and saying this was my brain child.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we've talked about it's like we're all really busy people, but we love education and we love teaching.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if we can find the time and all of our crazy schedules to put together a combination that we are proud of and we want to put out into the community and the world, I'm quite positive anybody can.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I've had so many friends be like, you know, the amount of time and effort it must take for somebody to look at any one of our videos, break it down, try to teach it to themselves, the reversing, the thing, the thing.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, surely you could have just made up a combination to a song if you consider yourself an educator.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that is how you want to present yourself to the community.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, for me it was a vulnerability.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then it was also, you know, you feel you feel bad too, because it's like that is not how that material was intended to be executed.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not at any fault of the dancers.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's how it's being taught to them and it's how it's being relayed to them.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that also felt like a real sort of assault on my material, my intellectual property, because that is sort of a bastardization of what it was, because they don't know.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I have so few things left on this earth that I can give.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the one thing that I have that I have created and done in this lifetime is my movement.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so the fact that that is that that was like sort of taken and called as someone else's when I took so much time and had so much emotional care into investing into this moment and this piece of choreography for someone else to just take it.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was I was just kind of mad and a little sad in the and human ethics.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me, I was disappointed in humanity because I knew about, you know, Enric.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then I know that there was another person that was affect that Ricky was affected by.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think at the end of the day, I'm just really sad that I I know that happens more than just those two people.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I know I I know there's more.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I it's it's so disappointing to me.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just so disappointed in humanity.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that for me, my initial reaction was up, I was obviously very upset.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I know a lot of people that listen to the podcast and who know me in the industries know me as someone who's been teaching on the convention circuit for 10 years, and I've always taught dance alongside my professional performance career.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I love educating, and I truly consider myself more of an educator than a choreographer.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Choreography does not come naturally to me.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I it takes me a very long time to create and sculpt these combinations that I feel proud enough to then present to dancers and to students and to put on stage at conventions.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and and for me, I'm a newer teacher at Steps One Broadway.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just working my way in.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have huge classes.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not selling out these classes.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: And to see someone else having larger classes in their space than I am when they're making more money than me.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just watching their class size and knowing that they taught my combination for months, for years.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I think a lot of people think that we create, like if we post it on the internet, it's fair game and it's not fair game.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is our career.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't make this stance up for a TikTok craze for you to replicate.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like what I post are from my classes that people paid to come and learn.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that what I'm posting is to share and hopefully inspire you to want to come and take my class, not learn it from someone else.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's taking work away from me when someone else is just duplicating my choreography when I get paid to go international and teach in places.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that was what was really hard for me to wrap my head around is the fact that, yeah, you know, it's unfortunate that someone thinks it's okay to steal someone else's choreography, but like this is my livelihood and my career.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people think that dance isn't real and it isn't, and it's just a fun hobby and it's you don't make money off of it.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: But like teaching, I make money off of teaching dance and all of those classes I didn't make a single dime off of, and I didn't even know it was happening because no one asked me if it was okay, no one gained gave me consent, no one tagged me, students had no idea.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it feels like a giant scam to all of his students.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel so, so bad because when I look at the bigger picture, and now that we know that there are now 15 choreographers impacted by this, Enric picked a highlight reel of the best of the best Broadway choreographers in the world to feature and steal from at his studio space that he directs.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just mind-blowing when you think about it like that.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, at least he has great taste.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's the little piece of this that's the it's a compliment.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we'll take that.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's flattering, it is, but at the same time, it's it's insulting too that someone would think it's appropriate.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: My the what I what I have said this whole time is okay, thank you for your apology.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: He made two apologies and then he went private and stopped talking to everybody.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: What would have been a great business move was to say, I am so sorry.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I just meant to be inspired by you.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I am inspired by you.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I own two professional dance studios in Spain.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Come on over, come teach for me.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to have you come teach.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want my students to learn from you because I respect you and I'm inspired by you.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: But that has not happened.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I just I'm still mind-blown by all of this and just I do feel badly for all the students because, you know, as somebody with a dance education and a dance background, and I'm an educator as well, I always speak somebody's name in the room.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: My predecessors, my peers, you're you have to speak their name because nobody else is going to.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: The history books sometimes don't.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: The general public doesn't.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: But in our space, in our world, you talk about the people who did the thing that you've been inspired by.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what is mind blowing to me is that this man has degrees in dance, in business.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: He is a dance educator, he's a dance professional, he claims to be, but he doesn't know that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know that piece of what we do as a dance community is speak other people's names.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: That makes me that just makes me sad.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, Sarah, for humanity, but like our little piece of humanity in the dance world.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you think that's like the one thing that brings us together.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then nope.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Especially when the easiest route would have been for me personally, if he had reached out and said, Hey, I saw this combo.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: I would like to bring this to my community.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Are you cool with that?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Get at it, tag me.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can't wait to see it.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and then you you could have even said, Hey, I'm in London.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I could pop over.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want me to come teach a class?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh my God, it's so easy.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: But there was, yeah, there was no awareness or thought of us, you know, the creators, which, you know, is not good.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: I really loved, I did like this really fun Christmas number last year.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it was so fun to see.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: I had a lot of teachers reach out and somewhere across the pond.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, my students love this.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind if I teach it?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, sure, just give me credit if you post it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't post it, still just make sure they know it's mine, you know?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and it was so fun getting videos, you know, most of it was just for class, getting videos of these little girls doing, like, you know, being toy soldiers.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just so cool.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: That was so special.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't want any money for that.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: I that it was just an honor.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was an honor.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: They did it the right way, though.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: It could have been that, you know, like that's why it felt like an honor.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, it is really flattering that people want to learn our work.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: If he wanted, but it's also like if he wanted to go that route.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that the hard part is that I I don't know where people is it just the age of social media that's made people confused on this?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because I just don't understand.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there are people, I don't know, like we all have ethics.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we all know that I have never watched a YouTube video and learned something from a YouTube video and then put it into my work ever in my life.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I hear a song, I'm inspired by it, I create.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not wa I might watch things for like inspiration, but I'm not learning it and then putting it into my work.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is very different.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just it just it blows my mind that so many people, and you know, like we've talked about this is a bigger issue.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is all impacting us, but going back to dance competition world, we I see it all the time.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I see direct ripoffs from so you think you could dance, dance moms.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen choreographers ripped off from YouTube videos and the same concept theme, turn sequence, you name it.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And why do people think this is okay?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Just because it's on the internet, it's does not mean it's fair game.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like it has to be social media, right?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like the rise of TikTok.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's yeah.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: I think I think I yeah, I think it's the the rise of TikTok for sure.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's it's thinking that you can do it and nobody's gonna know.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_04: And ultimately, some you know, people just know, they find out, you know.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: This dance gonna somebody's gonna know.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_04: And we all watch all the same videos, right?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: We all see all the same competition numbers, you know.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so you're like, oh yeah, I saw that last week in Detroit, sure.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: And even just even in this, in this Zoom room of five people, we all know so many of the same people around the world.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it is no longer uh, oh, we're all we're this insular little community that nobody will ever find out.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't think that anymore, even even if you are in another country, because we all, we're all, it's a global situation, but it is sort of the wild, wild west.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where I want to go next of, you know, now in his point in history, we have access to so much, which is amazing.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Dance is everywhere, which is amazing for everyone, people who have means and don't have means, and most people can look at the internet and find some dance and find some inspiration, but there's never been a point in time where we've had to navigate how to protect that work in this kind of way.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, what as an industry is happening that you guys know of?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know, you know, we don't have a lawyer on this podcast, we don't have the legal copyright information and all of that because it's still, as far as I understand it, being being created, being figured out how to implement.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: But for you guys in particular, how are you going to move forward as professional creators and creatives to protect your work when you're when you want to share it, but you're afraid of the situation happening again?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, for for me, I'll say like I just released a new video through steps and we put a disclaimer on at the end of the video, you know, that it's copyrighted and you know, ownership of the quote of myself.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_04: And and um, if somebody reads that, hopefully they will think twice about trying to steal it.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_04: But uh, you know, I just I wanted to put it out there, and I put it out there with a statement and just saying like this happened and this is the things that we're trying to do.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: I want to trust that like through our efforts and through like as much of like bringing this out into the open, that people will learn that they not to do that and to be weary of when they suspect that somebody is doing that.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: And you know what I mean, to call either call them out or you know, not not endorse that person or support that person because we're not gonna change videos being online.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: I think that I mean that's my feeling about it is to like to try for us to try and do the work of like educating and and promoting good practices while while still trusting and still sharing our work.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: So still just sharing our work and trusting that like if we do enough of the this the work to to share the good practices that people will will hopefully do less plagiarizing.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: Agreed.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: I've been opening up the floor in all of my dance classes at steps to talk about it.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I've made sure that everyone's informed.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone is informed.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: They're all they're all looking, they're looking to us, they're looking at our social media, they're seeing what's going on, they're listening to this podcast.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then I open up the floor and I want to hear their thoughts, I want to hear what they think and and what they think is plagiarizing versus, you know, everyone kind of has a different idea of what that is.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been really cool to listen to everyone's point of view, what of what's okay, what's ethical, what's not okay.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: We all have sort of a different idea of that, or like how many some people are really specific when they when I open up the floor, like how many counts of date is plagiarizing, or some people compare it to writing.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: I had this one student, Paige Vassos, who compared it to writing, and she was like, you know, a lot of sentences are if you were saying a group of words like in one fell swoop, fell swoop, you know, maybe that is not plagiarized, but when you do a couple sentences word for word, that is.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: So comparing it to writing, you know, it's been really fascinating.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: But that's sort of how what I've been doing is what I can do is when I have a platform, when I am teaching to talk about it and and listen to because I'm trying to get information so I can keep sharing it so that we're having a conversation.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really important that we're having a conversation.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was a bit more affected by a gentleman in Mexico City who has basically stolen my entire body of work.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: But um I've been partnering with Steps because I'm doing a spotlight class on Friday.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I feel like a lot of international students feel like they don't necessarily have the resources to tap into our classes in New York.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of them are unaware that a virtual option is still happening and uh uh possible.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I worked with steps and you know, I was like, I wanted to invite these students from Mexico City to come take my class, but I was like, I want to be really clear that I'm not interested in sort of getting compensation from that.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to have them have the opportunity to learn the material from the person that created it.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I did this really uh I did a post on Instagram and asked anyone in the community out there that was affected by that to reach out.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: And Steps was so generous and gave me a link.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we have, I think right now I have 50 of them coming in virtually to class on Friday, just free of charge.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: I have a link that I'm just sending out to them.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's great for Steps too, because they're like, you know, these are people that aren't in their system.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like everyone has signed up and created an account, and they were like, you know, just having them be aware that there are classes out there, and you know, don't feel that because you know, we're sort of taking away sort of the identity of these people in Spain and Mexico City, that that means that they don't have access to theater dance.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: If anything, I hope it opens their eyes that, you know, they can actually learn the material from the people.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm really excited.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Steps has been so generous and kind.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: We have a translator that's coming into the class so that'll answer all their questions and just sort of make it feel like they can really participate and be a part of the class.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I look forward to meeting this community that has deeply been affected by this, but again, has been so generous to reach out for the month now to be like, we found another combo.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: Here's another combo, we're tagging you immediately.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're sorry, we're sorry, you know.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you're like, it's not your fault.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you didn't know you paid to take the class on goodwill because you thought you were having that experience.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: Young Arts is an organization that supports artists across various disciplines, including dance.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: And each year they host a national arts competition to showcase the country's most talented young artists.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: This event is open to all dancers and artists between the ages of 15 and 18, four grades and twelve.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Winners have the opportunity to win past artists, receive mentorship and industry experts, access ongoing professional guidance, and earn the esteemed title of being a young arts winner.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Seniors who are finalists may also be nominated as a U.S.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Presidential Scholar in the Arts, a prestigious honor for high school students.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: As a past Young Arts winner, I highly encourage all aspiring dancers to enter into this fantastic program, as it can truly be life-changing and help jumpstart your future in dance.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: The deadline for the 2025 National Arts Competition is October 17th, 2024.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: Mark your calendars and apply now.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Head to their website to learn more at youngarts.org slash apply.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so great.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's great, Ricky.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so glad you're doing that.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_04: That's so cool.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is that is exceptional.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we do have to give a shout out to some of the organizations that have been helping us through this.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: So Steps on Broadway is one of the first because majority of the videos actually have been taken directly from Steps on Broadway through their Instagrams.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: We still don't exactly know how either one of these people found our videos initially, but I think mine was through steps and then going down the rabbit hole after that of searching through a choreographers that you like.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can find more videos on their personal social medias that way.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, which, you know, that's the type of digging that I've also been doing to expose to find other choreographers whose work's been stolen by these same individuals.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: I also want to give a shout-out to the Choreographers Guild.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also a newfound member of the Guild, and I'm so grateful to be a part of it.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: They held a big roundtable talk with all of the board members on the Guild, with a handful of us, to just open up the discussion, brainstorm ideas on how we can do better as an industry, next steps as well.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: We also discussed IP and copyright protection for choreography.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the Choreographer's Guild is also going to be doing a kind of community town hall to just kind of raise awareness and education for the dance industry.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate their support in this as well.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they've linked me up with uh attorneys in different places to talk to when it comes to copyright.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, one of the attorneys did inform us, and I think this, you know, I'm fairly certain that this is correct, but they told me that, you know, if we have proof from the beginning that it is our creation, published proof in video form and a date, a timestamped date, then it is ours and it is our authorship.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, for everyone out there, if you can show that it's yours first, it's yours.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: But from my understanding, there is that extra next step of filing it for copyright protection and filing your choreographic work for copyright protection, which if you wanted to take legal action in the states, you would have to have it filed appropriately to be able to do so.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: From my understanding, that's not necessarily the case with international situations like this.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a way, we are protected still and can choose to seek action if we wish.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I have been in discussions with a choreographer, uh copyright attorney who has recommended to just get into the habit of copywriting all of the material that's going out online.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: Any choreography that you're doing, file it for copyright because you want to be ahead of it before it happens.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we know this might happen again.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, it for me, I'm a little conflicted because it's hard to just think like, you know, and we all know we crank out combo after combo after combo for these classes.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I have to spend money to file this to protect myself for people who might just steal it on the internet.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we don't want anyone to steal it, but I think that in this scenario, like, I think this person never thought they were gonna get caught.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you gotta be, you gotta be like dumb to post something that's not yours on the internet.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, come on.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you're gonna steal something, at least just keep it in the classroom.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not, I'm not saying I'm not supporting that either, but I'm also saying, like, you're bound to get caught if you're posting it openly on the internet and not crediting and not tagging.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: And also, you know, I think what we've kind of talked about, it's eye-opening to me to know that students also were unaware of our existence.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the problem.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: We need to say the names in the room.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's no excuse, you know, might have made it a little bit better if it was like, I'm teaching I found this on YouTube.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's Courtney Ortiz's choreography.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoy it.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: And please tag Courtney if you post any videos.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not I still think that consent needs to be asked of me first before it's taught in a room, but I still think that's a step in the right direction as far as what we need to be doing as an industry if we are going to be using people's work that's not ours.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I don't know if I would, I mean, maybe this is just me, but if I paid$25 to go take a class at a professional level studio and I heard the teacher say, I learned this dance off of YouTube and I'm gonna teach it to you today, I would probably ask for a refund.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's not what I'm paying as true, right?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want that.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's not I can do that, do that myself for free.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: I do have one thing that I would like to, I would like everyone to hear.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's I want the dance kids, the the youth, the moms, I need everyone to know that okay, so we didn't like what Henry did, right?
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think the way to go about it is to send hate mail to this person.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: No one deserves that.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate, I always appreciate love and support from you know the community and my students and stuff who wanted to reach out and say, hey, this is Kathy Meals, this is, you know, Sarah Meal's choreography, whatever.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure they know it's mine.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: But then slipping into their DMs with something spiteful or a death, some type of like horrible death wish or something, that is not taking the high road.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: And even if we, you know, need to take equal uh legal action to get what we need, that is taking a high road.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: That is going through legal, you know, that is a high road that's honorable.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: What I don't think is honorable is like slandering someone in DMs.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: That is never, I don't ever think anyone deserves that.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't, at the end of the day, we don't want anyone to like hate themselves because of this.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: Enrique will learn a lesson.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: Enrique is learning a lesson.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need anyone to help me by, but I'm not someone who would ever do that.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: So please, if you wanted to be supportive, let's add, let's give a little bit more grace than that and add more positivity.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of saying, don't do that, let's say, you should credit Sarah.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that is a better, more effective way that I think we can go about being better humans on this earth and getting the job done.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it gets the job done to put anyone down, down, down, down like that.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: That I wanted to say that because I think a lot of times, you know, the dance moms, not to, you know, but the dance mom culture can be like eat, you know, kind of chew on somebody to get uh a result.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that is our best option.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you said that as well, and I completely agree.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: And even what you said about how, you know, if students are going into videos and and recommending and and saying, please credit Sarah or please credit Richard or please credit Courtney.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think about this often because how it all went down, it was an immediate, immediate delete, delete, delete.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost think that I would have appreciated a credit more than a delete because that would have been taking ownership and understanding.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I admit to stealing your choreography.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to honor whose choreography it is, and you can leave that video up there.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I never asked for it to be deleted.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would have, I that would have been a more honest approach to just completely come clean.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that, and I would have expected that for every single video that was knowingly stolen.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I personally believe that they deleted everything because I don't even think they know who they stole from at this point.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many choreography videos that have been taken that I just don't they know the choreo, they have it ingrained in their body, but they don't know where they got it from.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: So they can't even credit the real person if they want to.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: So instead, they're just like, I know this isn't mine, but I'm gonna delete it because now it's essentially evidence.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because and that also would have been able to come clean to the students who are who have been left in the dark from this from the beginning, you know, who had no idea.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: I feel bad going onto their pages, but like they're students who still have videos up from the classes of our choreography and it's still claiming it as his.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like if that's out into the world, like I don't want people still affiliated with him.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: I want them affiliated with me and my work.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, just getting getting that information out there, I think that would have been the best way to approach it would have been the proper crediting.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then students can keep all the videos up and just credit appropriately and be proud of their work and hope you had fun doing my choreography.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: But and then moving forward, consent, you know, asking before it's being used, getting the approval, and then teaching it and crediting the creator in the room and on social media.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is a good lesson in here for students, no matter what age, any dancer, you know, a lot of times I talk about in class owning the dance you just did.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe you messed up.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I hate when people finish a button and then like are like and then they walk off and they're all defeated and they walk off with their shoulders down, shaking their head because they're so mad at what they just put out there.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: We need to start owning, owning what you do on stage, being proud of whatever it was, you know, maybe something really bad.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: There is so much power in being like, that's right, I just did that and it wasn't my best.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: But you know what?
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's me.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: Here I am.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's live theater, baby.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's live theater, and this happens, and you can get an audience on your side if you're strong enough and brave enough to own it.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now that goes into being a human, right?
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: So if Enrique could have just owned this moment and stood by his mistake and been like, I made a mistake, I'm going to own it.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to stand by the fact that I just did that.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: I did that.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to make a comeback by having everyone come here, like you said, Leslie.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it was to credit each person and then get a following on that person.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: They could have been like, Richard Hines, you know, this choreography was from Richard Hines.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then, Ricky, you could have gained, you know, all these followers that could have helped you.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: But instead, it was like a tail between the legs delete illegally.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think whether you're on stage or whether you make some type of mistake in life, the lesson here is own it and be a stand-up human and make an ethical choice.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: People, you know, we all make mistakes.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're all going to do stuff we're not proud of.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you recover?
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do you recover?
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm the most interested in anyway when I'm watching dancers on stage.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_02: I rather see them fall and recover and own it than, you know, run off because they're ashamed or embarrassed or something like that.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: We have to we have to be strong and be bold and own what we're doing.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess that's kind of what I wanted to say.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: We can use this if if it's worth anything, we can hit it seriously.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're a motivational speaker.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm so inspired.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I can own my mistakes.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be fine.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: Come to class.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: You should hear this.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to come.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm gonna come out of retirement to come to class.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, please come.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's all I have to say about that.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh, I would say what I have really responded to through this journey that has sort of been led by Courtney is how powerful and beautiful our dance community is around the world.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_03: People that I have never met, never interacted with.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've gained, I feel like, new friends in a new community through this, which I hate the circumstances in which it happened, but I am grateful for this new community that I have found uh around the world.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, as we've all said for Enric sort of learning from his mistakes, I think, you know, I've I've said it in another interview.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's like we just have each other.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're a community that should be embracing and supporting and loving and sharing and empowering and not stealing.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's sort of like the antithesis of what it is to be an artist and how we can respect each other and complement each other and work together.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm I'm again sad it happened in the way it happened, but I'm so grateful.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: For this new community that I have uh found, you know, specifically in Spain and Mexico City through this journey and look forward to getting the day where I can meet them in person and sort of share a space with them and create with them.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_03: That would sort of be sort of the icing on the cake from all of this.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I'm just really I'm grateful to be talking about this, you know, and to continue the conversation and to continue to share it with my students and with other dancers and choreographers so that you know we we can try to change that culture.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and it's gonna take more than just like you know, the five of us on this podcast.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna take us sharing it with other people who will hopefully, you know, carry that on to their students and things like that.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_04: But I think it's important and maybe it's something that we we kind of didn't, we weren't ready for, we didn't expect.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_04: And now we're realizing, especially because we've been affected by it, we're like, oh wow, yeah, we have to, this has to be part of what we do.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for tuning in to our first episode of season six, all about stolen choreography and plagiarism in the dance world.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want to send a huge thank you to Richard J.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hines, Sarah Meal, and Josh Bergoss for joining us on the podcast.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for standing by my side to help advocate and raise awareness about choreography copyright and protection in the dance industry.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can find Richard at Richard J.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hines, Sarah at Happy Meal, and Josh at Josh Bergoss.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're ever in New York City or London, make sure you jump into their classes at Steps on Broadway, Broadway Dance Center, and Pineapple Dance Studios to experience their original choreography.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on your favorite podcast platform.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want more exclusive episodes, support our podcast by joining our Platinum Premium membership for only$5 a month.
• 1:07:46
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• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: Join now at www.impactdanceed educators.com slash platinum premium or click the link in our show notes.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: Looking for a fresh set of eyes to critique your solo?
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Then say hello to IDA's online judges critiques.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: Simply send us a video of your dance, whether it's from an in-studio rehearsal or an on-stage performance, and our judges will take it from there.
• 1:08:18
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• 1:08:29
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• 1:08:40
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• 1:08:48
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• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: Visit our website to learn more and submit your dance now at Impact Dance Adjudicators.com/slash online critiques.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: We are so excited for season six of Making the Impact with upcoming episodes, including a studio spotlight episode featuring the Making the Impact fan favorite award winner, having the It Factor, and how to support your dancer.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next week for more episodes.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, keep dancing.