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But I'm a Cheerleader with Jenny Chalikian · The Bechdel Cast

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Speaker 1: On the bel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best
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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hi, Welcome
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Speaker 1: to the Backdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my
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Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Toronte, and this is the backtel Cast,
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Speaker 1: our podcast about how women are portrayed in movie through
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Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens. I know, oh, I just want
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Speaker 1: you for them now they know they well, Welcome to
0:35
Speaker 1: the beck Del Cast. We are like activated right now.
0:40
Speaker 1: I'm less exhausted, I'm drinking of Mike's hard lemonade. We're
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Speaker 1: literally Rooney and Garland right now, aged twelve. I'd like
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Speaker 1: to be Rooney, please. I don't Ohoney and Judy Garland
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Speaker 1: arn my king. I love baking Rooney, I love small
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Speaker 1: thick Hey speaking okay, so us talking about Mickey Rooney
1:05
Speaker 1: means that our conversation is not passing the Bechtel test,
1:11
Speaker 1: always bringing it back. The Bechtel test, which is what
1:14
Speaker 1: is the inspiration for our podcast, requires that a movie
1:18
Speaker 1: has two female characters with names who talk to each
1:21
Speaker 1: other about something other than a man and based on
1:23
Speaker 1: armed version of the Bechtel test. It just has to
1:26
Speaker 1: be like a two line exchange among two female identifying characters.
1:30
Speaker 1: Let's try it, shall we. I'd love to Hey Caitlin,
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Speaker 1: Hey Jamie, I was thinking about going to Chipotle after this.
1:36
Speaker 1: Are you inviting me? Or are you just telling me?
1:39
Speaker 1: Do you want to comment? I don't know if you
1:40
Speaker 1: funk with Chipotle? Oh? I fuck with Chipole? Let's do it? Okay?
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Speaker 1: Fun ye? Two women making plans our new show or
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Speaker 1: taking another out? Amazing two dope. Queen's making plans to
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Speaker 1: get to Chipotle together as a group. And that's the
2:00
Speaker 1: whole title of the podcast. Yeah, I have to say
2:01
Speaker 1: it in one breath. So we're here to talk about
2:05
Speaker 1: a movie, as we always are, and as we always do.
2:08
Speaker 1: We have a guest and our guests. Let's again just
2:12
Speaker 1: reminding you what this podcast is. Sometimes every time we
2:16
Speaker 1: reiterate what the podcast is, I do somehow internalize it
2:19
Speaker 1: as like Jamie's so dumb, she probably forgot what the
2:23
Speaker 1: podcast is about. But that is part of our job
2:26
Speaker 1: and it's not a reflection on me, and I just
2:28
Speaker 1: have to do more cognizant time I'm just always assuming
2:30
Speaker 1: that every episode we do is the first episode that
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Speaker 1: one of our new fans listens to one of our
2:36
Speaker 1: new fans, Right, We're always having new fans, so many fans.
2:42
Speaker 1: I've addicted to the fans I'm getting I'm so tired,
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Speaker 1: so I don't know what's happening if this is the
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Speaker 1: first episode you're listening to. Well, sorry, let's introduce our guests. Yes,
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Speaker 1: I'm so excited. I feel so bad she has had
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Speaker 1: to see this much. Yeah, she is a wonderful person.
3:01
Speaker 1: She was my colleague at the Nerdest show room at
3:04
Speaker 1: Meltont Comics, and she's a hilarious comedian. Jenny to Loocky in, Hi,
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Speaker 1: thanks for being here, Thank you for having me. Of course,
3:12
Speaker 1: so you brought us, But I'm a cheerleater, a cheerleadter.
3:15
Speaker 1: Tell us your history with this movie and when to
3:17
Speaker 1: do you first see it? What's your relationship? I saw
3:19
Speaker 1: it in high school. I saw it in Rome, Georgia,
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Speaker 1: in my friend's house. She put it on. I had
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Speaker 1: heard nothing about it, and I wasn't a gay then.
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Speaker 1: I just was just a freelance Jenny, A freelance Jenny.
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Speaker 1: I was too stupid to know I was gay, And
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Speaker 1: I watched this movie and yeah, it blew my tiny
3:40
Speaker 1: little mind. Wait, how old were you at the time. Oh,
3:43
Speaker 1: I did the five Year Plan in college. Seventeen sixteen. Okay,
3:49
Speaker 1: so around the age that Megan is in the movie.
3:52
Speaker 1: I think, so, yeah, did you have a similar experience
3:55
Speaker 1: where like people had to be like Jenny, I think
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Speaker 1: you might be gay. Yes, A couple of people approached
4:02
Speaker 1: the object, and I was just like, what I would know, that,
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Speaker 1: wouldn't I I would be the first to know I
4:10
Speaker 1: wasn't some people, some people caught on a little sooner
4:15
Speaker 1: than I did. So yeah, good steaks, because like I
4:21
Speaker 1: went to boarding school, I was I went to I
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Speaker 1: was in an all girls dorm, and I was like
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Speaker 1: one nine. Especially then, I definitely would know. I didn't.
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Speaker 1: I was just like, girls are stressful. Didn't have anything
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Speaker 1: to do with like your upbringing or I grew up
4:37
Speaker 1: in a pretty conservative religious household, but even then, like
4:42
Speaker 1: my parents were very pro me, I just didn't have
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Speaker 1: any language to even figure out those feelings. Like I
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Speaker 1: remember looking up gay and homosexual in the dictionary or
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Speaker 1: the encyclopedia. We had an extensive encyclopedia and just not
4:56
Speaker 1: much information there. I used to look up the word
4:59
Speaker 1: penis in a dictionary me when I was like, probably
5:01
Speaker 1: who has You're a little freak, I used to. I
5:05
Speaker 1: had this elaborate plan. My friend Jade and I we
5:09
Speaker 1: both had such a big crush on Ashton Kutcher and
5:11
Speaker 1: we're both socially very weird. So we convinced our teacher,
5:15
Speaker 1: who was like a very young nice teacher for America guy,
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Speaker 1: like we should be able to stay inside and google
5:21
Speaker 1: things during recess because we don't like going outside because
5:24
Speaker 1: we're losers. And he was like, okay, plenty well taken,
5:28
Speaker 1: stay inside and google things. And so we just google
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Speaker 1: Ashton Kutcher nude frantically for days on end, just waiting
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Speaker 1: for the right photoshop to look realistic enough for us
5:39
Speaker 1: to believe never happens. I saw this movie for the
5:45
Speaker 1: first time. I think I was like a freshman in college. Um,
5:48
Speaker 1: I had a friend of mine recommended to me, and
5:50
Speaker 1: I was a young film major at the time, so
5:52
Speaker 1: I was like, of course, I'll watch any movie. And
5:55
Speaker 1: I remember liking a lot, thinking was really funny, and
5:58
Speaker 1: I saw this movie and saved within I think probably
6:01
Speaker 1: like a few months of each other, and I was, yeah,
6:04
Speaker 1: I enjoyed them both. Me rewatching, but I'm a cheerleader
6:07
Speaker 1: for this podcast. Is the first time I've seen it
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Speaker 1: in a long time, and I forgot how fun it
6:10
Speaker 1: was and like just how visually interesting it is visually
6:15
Speaker 1: so I had the style of this movie is so
6:18
Speaker 1: cool and I didn't know that I saw this movie
6:20
Speaker 1: before I knew who RuPaul was, so I totally forgot
6:23
Speaker 1: he was in it, and I kind of did too. Yeah,
6:26
Speaker 1: his character is so funny. He's great. And I saw
6:30
Speaker 1: this movie. For those of you who are playing Bettel
6:33
Speaker 1: cast Bingo out there, if we had Bingo boards recently anyways,
6:37
Speaker 1: if anyone's got their Bengo board out there, I did
6:39
Speaker 1: see this movie this morning and I loved it. I
6:42
Speaker 1: really liked this movie. There's definitely stuff to talk about
6:45
Speaker 1: that I really enjoyed. And just like from a visual standpoye,
6:49
Speaker 1: this movie is so cool in the way it uses
6:52
Speaker 1: like a very specific color palette and just I really
6:56
Speaker 1: like it. And the director of this movie. For we
7:00
Speaker 1: jump into queer female director Jamie Babbitt, who when I
7:04
Speaker 1: started doing research on her, I was like, this name
7:05
Speaker 1: looks really familiar to me, and I can't figure out why.
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Speaker 1: I directed almost every TV in existing. My favorite episodes
7:13
Speaker 1: of Gilmore Girls were directed by this woman. She directed
7:17
Speaker 1: United States of Tara Diablo Cody Show. She's directing a
7:20
Speaker 1: lot of Silicon Valley. That's like Aaron right now, Like
7:23
Speaker 1: she's she's legit. She this was her first movie. Yeah,
7:28
Speaker 1: this was her first movie and it was just like
7:31
Speaker 1: pretty impressive. She also um she directed, and then the
7:36
Speaker 1: movie was produced by her I think then girlfriend who
7:39
Speaker 1: she later married but also then divorced, Andrea Sperling because
7:45
Speaker 1: she's now married to Carrie dornetto also a major I
7:50
Speaker 1: think producer in Hollywood. Ever heard of it? All the
7:54
Speaker 1: Hollywood heads out there are frothing now anyway. But yeah,
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Speaker 1: she's part of the fun of watching this movie. It
8:01
Speaker 1: was like learning more about her and she seems so
8:04
Speaker 1: fucking cool. She directed my favorite episode of Gilmore Girls ever,
8:07
Speaker 1: which for all you Gilmore Girls sets out there, is
8:10
Speaker 1: Take the Deviled Eggs. She's really funny. Thank you, just
8:14
Speaker 1: a little bit of Jamie trivia for you. So yes,
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Speaker 1: this is an example of a movie about queer people
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Speaker 1: made by queer people. Oftentimes we encounter movies where there's
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Speaker 1: like maybe one gay character. They're usually sidelined, we hardly
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Speaker 1: know anything about them, and the movie was made by
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Speaker 1: a bunch of straight people. You can tell the execution
8:38
Speaker 1: is three usually pretty they show their hand pretty quickly. Yeah,
8:43
Speaker 1: so I'll do the recap. Let's do it. Okay, So
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Speaker 1: but I'm a cheerleader. It's about a character named Megan
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Speaker 1: played by Natasha Laone, and she is a cheerleader and
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Speaker 1: she has a boyfriend who when she makes out with him,
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Speaker 1: she is picturing not him, but instead a lot of
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Speaker 1: boobs and cheerleaders doing flips and butts and all kinds
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Speaker 1: of non men body parts. Um, but she a very
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Speaker 1: accurate description and guessing. So she goes home and her
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Speaker 1: parents are like, um, hey, we're about to have an
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Speaker 1: intervention because we're pretty sure you're a lesbian. And she's like, what, No,
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Speaker 1: I'm not, and they're like, no, we're pretty sure. And
9:27
Speaker 1: then there's a really funny sequence where they're like gay
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Speaker 1: iconography and there's like a Melissa Average post bluster and
9:33
Speaker 1: they're like, and you're a vegetarian and you're trying to
9:35
Speaker 1: make us eat tofu and you only ever have pictures
9:38
Speaker 1: of girls in your locker. I love how they basically
9:41
Speaker 1: do describe the like you seem like, I'm pretty good
9:43
Speaker 1: and ethical person. Therefore, we are sending you away. Right.
9:48
Speaker 1: So her parents are we can imagine, kind of conservative Christians.
9:52
Speaker 1: There's also the vaginal pillow. The vaginal pillow, I feel
9:56
Speaker 1: like that should have been an open and chut case
9:58
Speaker 1: right there. She lays her head down and it's just like, oh, okay, sorry,
10:05
Speaker 1: continue as well. The first time we see the parents,
10:07
Speaker 1: they're basically praying that she's not gay. So it's like, okay, yeah,
10:11
Speaker 1: we got some conservative religious parents. She's just in the dark.
10:14
Speaker 1: She's like, this prayer is very specific, is a very
10:17
Speaker 1: specific prayer. So they have an intervention and basically like,
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Speaker 1: you're a lesbian and we don't want you to be,
10:25
Speaker 1: so we're going to send you to something called True Directions,
10:27
Speaker 1: which is a camp slash rehabilitation center to effectively turn
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Speaker 1: gay youth into hetero youth. So they sent her away
10:38
Speaker 1: and she is reluctant, and she still does not acknowledge
10:41
Speaker 1: that she is gay. She thinks she is straight. And
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Speaker 1: then so the facility is run by some named Mary,
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Speaker 1: and she has what is clearly a gay. Moriarty one
10:51
Speaker 1: of the best character actors ever. Loved her work in
10:55
Speaker 1: Casper and I love the scenes where her voice is
10:59
Speaker 1: just like thirteen octaves lower than you're expecting. You're just
11:03
Speaker 1: like canthy. Moriarty basically is a cigarette and she is
11:08
Speaker 1: so amazing. I love her so much. She's she's great. Yeah,
11:13
Speaker 1: so we meet her and her son named Rock, who
11:17
Speaker 1: we can assume reference to Rock Hudson. Oh yeah, I
11:21
Speaker 1: didn't pick up on that, but yes, so I think
11:23
Speaker 1: we can assume that she has tried to turn what
11:26
Speaker 1: is clearly her gay son also into a straight person,
11:30
Speaker 1: and it is working to not great effect. She basically
11:33
Speaker 1: keeps him in a doghouse. It's crazy, but he's always
11:37
Speaker 1: like pulling on chainsaws and just like jerking off a rake,
11:41
Speaker 1: and all the dudes are an erotic housekeeper like her landscaper.
11:46
Speaker 1: It's just I love Rock Rock Ros. So Megan meets
11:52
Speaker 1: she meets all of her peers, who are other young
11:55
Speaker 1: people whose parents have been like, you're gay, and we
11:57
Speaker 1: don't like it, so we're going to try to turn
11:59
Speaker 1: you straight. At this camp. The first step is to
12:02
Speaker 1: like acknowledge that they are homosexual, and then they have
12:06
Speaker 1: to figure out what their root is, like why they
12:09
Speaker 1: have denied themselves of a heterosexual lifestyle. So there's all
12:13
Speaker 1: these different steps they have to go through. And Megan
12:16
Speaker 1: meets Graham played by Claia Duval and they who is
12:20
Speaker 1: my root? Like, yes, she's also the person who in
12:29
Speaker 1: She's all that tells what's her face to to kill
12:32
Speaker 1: herself and ion lots of iconic claim mamas. Yeah, maybe
12:38
Speaker 1: the worst vectoral tests passing scene of all time is
12:42
Speaker 1: clay as all motivated, where she's like, you could actually
12:45
Speaker 1: kill yourself and say that it's like they had names. Yikes.
12:54
Speaker 1: But anyway, so Megan meets Graham, and Graham is a
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Speaker 1: little you know, she's kind of hardened, and she smoked
13:00
Speaker 1: cigarettes and she swears and all this stuff. Also the
13:03
Speaker 1: only character who doesn't apologize for being gay when we're
13:06
Speaker 1: introduced to her basically yeah, which kind of changes letters.
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Speaker 1: So they get a little closer and they get a
13:14
Speaker 1: little friendlier, and then they eventually develop a romantic relationship. Meanwhile,
13:17
Speaker 1: all the people who are running the camp, one of
13:20
Speaker 1: them being the character Mike played by RuPaul, who is
13:24
Speaker 1: an ex gay. They're like, I used to be gay,
13:26
Speaker 1: but then I turned hetero. From the camp and even
13:29
Speaker 1: though it's like the gayest campable the time, it's oh god,
13:34
Speaker 1: I love the graduation office, which is raincoat fabric. Everyone's
13:39
Speaker 1: wearing raincoat, yes or something. You're just like, this is
13:44
Speaker 1: a music video, Like it's just it's it's incredible. So yeah,
13:48
Speaker 1: then Graham and Megan are like, let's run away together
13:52
Speaker 1: because like, this whole thing is bullshit. Like you you,
13:54
Speaker 1: you are who you are, you like who you like.
13:55
Speaker 1: You can't change that. And a lot of the characters
13:57
Speaker 1: do recognize this, but because of the press sure from
14:00
Speaker 1: their parents and society, they are, you know, trying to
14:05
Speaker 1: deny who they are and adhere to society's norms. And
14:10
Speaker 1: by the end, Megan's like, I'm not going to do
14:12
Speaker 1: this fun this like I like what I like, and
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Speaker 1: I like girls, and I like cheerleading and I'm not
14:15
Speaker 1: going to apologize for that. She gets kicked out of
14:18
Speaker 1: the camp because she and Graham get caught kissing, so
14:20
Speaker 1: she gets kicked out, and then she's like, I can't
14:22
Speaker 1: believe Graham didn't come with me. So she goes back
14:24
Speaker 1: and effectively kind of rescues her from the graduation ceremony,
14:28
Speaker 1: just this whole cheer and then finally Graham because what's
14:33
Speaker 1: at stake for Graham is that she won't get to
14:35
Speaker 1: go to college or get her trust fund or anything
14:36
Speaker 1: like that because she comes from like a wealthy family. Right.
14:42
Speaker 1: But then she realizes like, yeah, fun this, I'm gonna
14:45
Speaker 1: embrace who I am and be with Megans that they
14:48
Speaker 1: run off together and that's pretty much the end. Also
14:54
Speaker 1: a movie that ends with two women scaling offense and escaping.
14:59
Speaker 1: Where usually the when we cover movies in this podcast,
15:02
Speaker 1: it's a man jumping over a fence to surprise a woman.
15:06
Speaker 1: This is two women escaping. Consensually big moment for fences. Normally,
15:12
Speaker 1: fences really get the shaft totally in film. Check out
15:16
Speaker 1: the movie Fences and it's been a plug for five
15:19
Speaker 1: Fences on iTunes. I haven't seen it seemed pretty well received.
15:24
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I mean it's an example of a movie
15:27
Speaker 1: that is based on a play, which are almost always
15:30
Speaker 1: extremely boring because it's nine dialect for doubt, just the
15:36
Speaker 1: greatest movie of all time. It's really good. Anyway back
15:41
Speaker 1: to but I'm a cheerleader, so but I'm doubt, But
15:46
Speaker 1: I have a doubt, but I have such a doubt. Yeah,
15:51
Speaker 1: that's the story of but I'm a cheerleader. And there's
15:55
Speaker 1: a lot to talk about in this movie because it,
15:58
Speaker 1: more than most movies, explore wars, gender identity, sexuality, societal expectations, heteronormativity,
16:07
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot going on here. Yeah, it's also
16:10
Speaker 1: real stylistic like it has. It really does have its
16:12
Speaker 1: own look and feel, And if you want to have fun,
16:15
Speaker 1: you should go back and read movie reviews of this movie,
16:19
Speaker 1: done mostly by straight people, largely summed up by like,
16:23
Speaker 1: I don't get it. I don't why they made a
16:26
Speaker 1: lot of choices. I didn't understand that it could have
16:30
Speaker 1: been more gay. It was a popular one, and Roger
16:34
Speaker 1: Ebert in his review is literally like someone told me
16:37
Speaker 1: that these camps actually exist. That's crazy. I was just like, thanks, Rob.
16:43
Speaker 1: He's like, it doesn't make sense because at the end
16:44
Speaker 1: of the day, you always choose what you want to do,
16:47
Speaker 1: And I was like, Roger, he also hated Josie in
16:51
Speaker 1: The Pussycat, so fuck him. But he Rogerie, I feel like,
16:55
Speaker 1: we mean it makes sense because he is the movie
16:58
Speaker 1: critic or whatever. But for the most part, I feel
17:01
Speaker 1: like whenever we're addressing his reviews on this podcast, it's
17:04
Speaker 1: because he has a bad take. I'm just like, oh,
17:08
Speaker 1: you hate this movie that ten years on literally everyone loves.
17:12
Speaker 1: Maybe he's maybe he died from embarrassment. We can perhaps
17:19
Speaker 1: the most scathing take ever on this podcast, Roger Yevert
17:24
Speaker 1: died of badcasts of bad takes. I'm pretty sure it's
17:29
Speaker 1: cancer big criticism, And again most of the criticism is
17:36
Speaker 1: coming from straight mail movie critics. But a lot of this,
17:40
Speaker 1: like the satire is heavy handed. It's like what else
17:44
Speaker 1: would it be, Like you're trying to fit these kids
17:47
Speaker 1: into this like very strict gender identity. They've pushed it
17:51
Speaker 1: not even that much to the extreme, because like when
17:54
Speaker 1: you think about it, like true headed ordativity is pretty extreme,
17:58
Speaker 1: and so like get this very like polarized idea that
18:03
Speaker 1: they're trying to inflict on it. It's like it's always
18:06
Speaker 1: going to be heavy handed, like because that's what they're
18:08
Speaker 1: ultimately trying to achieve, is this perfect, unachievable, absurd ideal
18:14
Speaker 1: quotes of gender roles. And so it was such a
18:17
Speaker 1: weird criticism here. Yeah, I mean the movie is a
18:22
Speaker 1: clear satire, but I feel like a lot of like
18:25
Speaker 1: people are like, what's happening? Why is it so pink?
18:28
Speaker 1: And like I love the scenes where Mary is teaching
18:32
Speaker 1: the girls how to like vacuum the carpet and paint
18:35
Speaker 1: each other's nails, and and then like Rue Paul is
18:38
Speaker 1: teaching the men how to chop wood and fix a car.
18:41
Speaker 1: And it's like, I like how war is part of
18:44
Speaker 1: the mail. It's so funny, like but it's like from
18:49
Speaker 1: a satirical that's so funny. Also, the post, like the
18:53
Speaker 1: Charlie's Angels post they make right before they like charge
18:57
Speaker 1: the hill with like fake guns. It's just like this is, yeah,
19:00
Speaker 1: this could be like overtly explores what is considered very
19:06
Speaker 1: stereotypical gender roles that most movies don't bother looking at
19:13
Speaker 1: or examining or anything like that, and it's just so
19:15
Speaker 1: funny like when you do look at it from such
19:18
Speaker 1: a satirical point of view, where it's like, yeah, we
19:21
Speaker 1: teach boys that they should know how to fix cars
19:24
Speaker 1: and play football and chop a piece of wood and
19:28
Speaker 1: shoot a gun, and we teach girls that their main
19:32
Speaker 1: job is to maintain a household and clean and wash
19:35
Speaker 1: a dish. Like the like those these are so funny
19:40
Speaker 1: and if you don't realize how absurd the gender roles
19:44
Speaker 1: that we are inflicting on people even today, how they're
19:47
Speaker 1: so silly and outdated and crazy, Like of course you're
19:51
Speaker 1: not going to recognize that is satire, and of course
19:53
Speaker 1: you're gonna be like, oh, this is this movie. Yeah, yeah,
19:56
Speaker 1: I don't get it. I know it doesn't make sense,
19:57
Speaker 1: but and like the satire of like the scene they're
20:00
Speaker 1: all with the family and they're looking for what Megan's
20:03
Speaker 1: root is and Kathy Marie already just goes out on
20:07
Speaker 1: a limb to the point where the parents are I'm like, oh,
20:10
Speaker 1: of course you only care about it when you're sort
20:12
Speaker 1: of being insulted, Like your daughter can be insulted and
20:15
Speaker 1: you can send her away to be dislike completely flips
20:18
Speaker 1: their own gender norms on them, right, Like you're the reason.
20:21
Speaker 1: It's like, wait that right, They're like, it was only
20:24
Speaker 1: nine months because Becau, I saw my mom working and
20:31
Speaker 1: my dad wasn't working, and that's what probably made me gay.
20:34
Speaker 1: And it's just like that, it's a it's a funny
20:37
Speaker 1: sick burn. So Jenny, I'm curious because I think this
20:43
Speaker 1: is the first movie we've done on the podcast that
20:46
Speaker 1: features a predominantly queer cast of characters. If I'm not mistaken,
20:51
Speaker 1: it's a very good debut. That's a good movie to
20:54
Speaker 1: open with. So I'm curious. I can only speak to
20:57
Speaker 1: so much as a unfortunately hetero person. Um, So I'm curious.
21:05
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, And all her press clippings, Calin is
21:09
Speaker 1: referred to as the tragically hetero. So I'm curious, Jenny,
21:16
Speaker 1: how do you feel the like representation of lesbian characters
21:21
Speaker 1: is in queerness in general, is in this movie. I
21:23
Speaker 1: personally really enjoyed it because at its heart was a comedy. Again,
21:29
Speaker 1: I grew up pretty sheltered, pretty like not realized that
21:32
Speaker 1: I was gay, didn't have many clues to go on
21:35
Speaker 1: in my mind, but like what I was exposed to
21:39
Speaker 1: was just TV and film, most of which very depressing. Like,
21:43
Speaker 1: if you're just trying to like figure out what gayness
21:46
Speaker 1: is through movie and TV, it's pretty bleak. It's like,
21:50
Speaker 1: even when sometimes there's a gay and lesbian directors or writers,
21:56
Speaker 1: it'll be about you know, history or bullying or something,
22:00
Speaker 1: all very important subjects, but terrifying if you're just in
22:04
Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere being like that doesn't look like
22:07
Speaker 1: any fun So I won't go further with this. Don't
22:11
Speaker 1: like no levity in the way queer characters are. Yeah, yeah,
22:14
Speaker 1: so I like to start it with chaotic and funny.
22:18
Speaker 1: I responded to that at the time more than the
22:21
Speaker 1: fact that it's like, oh, there's good representation, because I
22:24
Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't even know the deficit that I
22:28
Speaker 1: was experiencing of like gay figures in media. I think
22:33
Speaker 1: that's a problem for a lot of like people who
22:37
Speaker 1: belong to marginalized group like because representation is so bad
22:42
Speaker 1: for anyone who's not a straight, cis, white, able bodied
22:47
Speaker 1: man in media historically throughout all the years, like I
22:54
Speaker 1: grew up loving so many movies that treated women so
22:57
Speaker 1: horribly because that's really all there was. And we're seeing
23:01
Speaker 1: a positive trend of and it's not anywhere close to
23:04
Speaker 1: being perfect or even good yet, but um a trend
23:07
Speaker 1: toward better representation, more inclusion, where people who historically have
23:13
Speaker 1: really never seen themselves represented on screen or finally seeing
23:17
Speaker 1: more and better representations of themselves free. I mean, and
23:22
Speaker 1: again this is I'm in a similar predicament, is you, Caitlin?
23:25
Speaker 1: Where I am the terminally hetero Jamie Lofton, but the
23:32
Speaker 1: upsettingly straight Jamie Loftons. Like this seems to me like
23:38
Speaker 1: a very kind of like open and close case of
23:41
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, you can make a really effective satire
23:45
Speaker 1: about queerness if you give the reins to a queer
23:48
Speaker 1: director and writer who knows what she's talking about, and
23:53
Speaker 1: then it's like punching down to the right people. And
23:56
Speaker 1: I mean, the same thing is happening in like Black
23:58
Speaker 1: Panther or like Wonder Woman, where it's just like, oh,
24:02
Speaker 1: it can be like this, Like we all know repectel
24:06
Speaker 1: Gast listeners know like representation is lacking, but when you
24:09
Speaker 1: finally see a movie where that comes together, you're just like,
24:12
Speaker 1: oh man, it's it's exciting. Yeah, and there is like
24:17
Speaker 1: there it's this movie is like ultimately a sat tire,
24:21
Speaker 1: but it's like well done because it's written by someone
24:23
Speaker 1: who has perspective. I read an interview that Jamie Babott
24:27
Speaker 1: did around this time and she was like, yeah, I
24:29
Speaker 1: was aware of these camps and like had heard all
24:32
Speaker 1: this stuff, and then I wasn't aware of the extent
24:34
Speaker 1: of the practices at the camp where when you see
24:37
Speaker 1: it in a satire. You're like, there's no way there
24:39
Speaker 1: was electric shock. There absolutely was electric shock. This was
24:42
Speaker 1: a pretty benign representation. And it's still like yikes, yeah, yeah,
24:48
Speaker 1: and I don't know what I mean, and like that's
24:51
Speaker 1: so not cool that it happened, but cool that it's
24:53
Speaker 1: represented in this very creative, interesting, stylized way. And I
24:58
Speaker 1: also wanted to So this movie was directed by Jamie Babbitt,
25:02
Speaker 1: written though by Brian So She also had a story
25:05
Speaker 1: by credit, but the screenwriter was Brian Peterson, who I
25:09
Speaker 1: tried to do some more research on. I couldn't find
25:11
Speaker 1: a whole ton about him, so I don't know if
25:13
Speaker 1: he commune somewhere right, So I was like, Okay, is
25:18
Speaker 1: he gay or he is he? Oh? He is? He
25:21
Speaker 1: is gay. I would be very surprised if the person
25:25
Speaker 1: who wrote this movie was not gay. He is from
25:28
Speaker 1: when I'm saying he's gay himself and had some experience
25:30
Speaker 1: of conversion therapy while working at a prison clinic for
25:32
Speaker 1: sex offenders. Holy shit. Variety named him one of ten
25:38
Speaker 1: screenwriters to watch another thing about him. I probably I
25:41
Speaker 1: can't wait to be on that list as well for
25:44
Speaker 1: having anyway break that screenwriter. So heys out of the closet.
25:49
Speaker 1: He is a core screenwriter as well, but this did
25:52
Speaker 1: seem to be thoroughly Jamie Babbitt's story that she was
25:56
Speaker 1: also direct. Definitely. Yeah. I think it's also helpful that
25:59
Speaker 1: there's more stable gay characters, Like for the men and women,
26:03
Speaker 1: there's like a spectrum of like femine butch men and women.
26:07
Speaker 1: Like if there's just one gay character in a movie,
26:10
Speaker 1: that gay character has to represent all of LGBT queer
26:14
Speaker 1: people and that's impractical. So I think it was helpful
26:18
Speaker 1: that there were just a zillion different types of you know,
26:21
Speaker 1: even just people in the closet and not in the closet. Yeah,
26:25
Speaker 1: I think that the representation could be better considering that
26:29
Speaker 1: all of the women in the camp, maybe all but one,
26:34
Speaker 1: were white. I think Jan was a person of color.
26:37
Speaker 1: Jan is terminally ambiguous, like in every aspect of her life,
26:43
Speaker 1: and God bless her. I believe that. Yeah. Yeah, well
26:48
Speaker 1: that's like an amazing satirical move for people who don't
26:52
Speaker 1: get it, we're watching this movie of like here's a
26:56
Speaker 1: very painful outing as someone as straight. You know, it's
26:59
Speaker 1: like that's so funny and absurd. But also for I
27:03
Speaker 1: like imagine my dad who is progressive but doesn't totally
27:09
Speaker 1: get it and seeing something like that and being like, oh, okay,
27:13
Speaker 1: you know, like that is like sort of like for
27:15
Speaker 1: people who want to understand but don't quite get. I meant,
27:19
Speaker 1: can funk with straight people too, Like I mean, if
27:23
Speaker 1: I'm sure both of you have been accused of not
27:26
Speaker 1: being you know, oh, I've been determinally I've been assumed
27:30
Speaker 1: to be or asked if I was a lesbian on
27:34
Speaker 1: so many occasions in my life. I'm just like, I'm not,
27:38
Speaker 1: but I you're blessed moment. In fact, my mom, so
27:43
Speaker 1: there was a large span of time that has gone
27:46
Speaker 1: on even longer by now. But when I was in
27:49
Speaker 1: college that side time works, but I'm saying it never changed.
27:54
Speaker 1: So and when I was in college, my mom a
27:58
Speaker 1: few different times asked me if I was a lesbian
28:00
Speaker 1: because I never had a boyfriend, which is a very
28:02
Speaker 1: heteronormative assumption to make. It's like, oh, well, if you
28:04
Speaker 1: don't have a boyfriend, it must be because you're gay,
28:06
Speaker 1: And it's like no, because I'm emotionally damaged and don't
28:10
Speaker 1: understand emotional intimacy. Mom. But yeah, so my mom's like,
28:14
Speaker 1: you know, it would be okay if you were and
28:15
Speaker 1: I was to love you and you can come out
28:17
Speaker 1: to me and all this stuff. And I'm just like,
28:18
Speaker 1: I know that to be true, and if I was gay,
28:20
Speaker 1: I would definitely tell you. I'm simply not. I'm simply
28:24
Speaker 1: just a damaged person who does not know how to
28:27
Speaker 1: connect with people emotionally. Well, that's very much queer culture.
28:30
Speaker 1: So I'm basically my dad my yeah, my parent. This
28:36
Speaker 1: is not gonna make my dad looks very good. I
28:39
Speaker 1: was in the g s A all of high school,
28:41
Speaker 1: the Gay Straight Alliance, and I identified as S. But
28:46
Speaker 1: if you're in the g s A in like an
28:48
Speaker 1: urban high school, most people just are like g It's
28:52
Speaker 1: like but also what if my dad would be like, yeah,
28:58
Speaker 1: it is the Gay Straight Alne really ignores a lot
29:01
Speaker 1: of people in the queer community. But anyway, this was
29:04
Speaker 1: a long time ago now, but I mean I was.
29:07
Speaker 1: It was the only like that, and you know all
29:10
Speaker 1: the other clubs I was in also, like Drama Club
29:13
Speaker 1: in bad Also, I thought you were going to be
29:14
Speaker 1: like Amis International, which is obviously dipping your toe into
29:18
Speaker 1: going to the Gay Straightler there I was. I was
29:21
Speaker 1: in the g s A all through high school and
29:23
Speaker 1: my dad, you know, my parents were always like very
29:25
Speaker 1: supportive of whatever I wanted to do. But my dad
29:27
Speaker 1: would just be like, it's Jamie's gay Monday because he
29:31
Speaker 1: had picked me up from the g s A thing,
29:33
Speaker 1: Jamie's gay Monday Monday, and so every Monday he'd be like,
29:37
Speaker 1: how is game Monday, Jamie. I was like, it was good.
29:40
Speaker 1: We had productive discussion. It's like my gay little Jamie
29:45
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, fine, you know, and I
29:48
Speaker 1: didn't fully get g s A um, but it was fun.
29:52
Speaker 1: I don't know recommend it's any such a weird relationship. Also,
29:58
Speaker 1: Massa Chusetts was the first state to legalize gay marriage,
30:01
Speaker 1: but also such a fucking weird state on every level.
30:04
Speaker 1: I mean, we've all that's where we all met, and
30:08
Speaker 1: what a strange place where you can't Like, my dad
30:12
Speaker 1: was fully accepting of me. This is peak New England,
30:15
Speaker 1: fully accepting of me participating in the g s A.
30:18
Speaker 1: Did have to call me get Jamie h gay Jamie's
30:23
Speaker 1: gay Mondays, which is down like like if it is
30:32
Speaker 1: the weird? Yeah, well, I so I grew up in
30:35
Speaker 1: a as you know, a very small rural Pennsylvania town
30:38
Speaker 1: where any sort of thing that wasn't had her own
30:41
Speaker 1: normative was thought to be very evil and gross and horrible. Like,
30:45
Speaker 1: it was a very conservative area, and to my knowledge,
30:49
Speaker 1: there were no out gay people in my high school.
30:52
Speaker 1: There were certainly gay people, but none of them felt
30:54
Speaker 1: comfortable with being out. But when I got to college,
30:57
Speaker 1: I soon met someone who to become my best friends
31:02
Speaker 1: the cast Twilight episode. He would go to gay parties
31:05
Speaker 1: all the time and bring me with him. I was like,
31:08
Speaker 1: this is such a cool culture, and straight culture is
31:12
Speaker 1: still fucking boring, and to the extent where I was
31:15
Speaker 1: like all of the screenplays I was writing in film school. Again,
31:19
Speaker 1: I did go to college and then grad school to
31:21
Speaker 1: get a master's screen screen running from Boston University. Yeah.
31:25
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever mentioned that before. M Yeah. Yeah,
31:28
Speaker 1: So anyway, all the screenplays I was writing were about
31:31
Speaker 1: gay characters, which like, as a straight person, problematic, But
31:37
Speaker 1: I don't know, I was just like, I was so
31:38
Speaker 1: fascinated by the culture and really just wanted everyone to
31:43
Speaker 1: know that I was an ally. It's all I mean,
31:45
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's so weird because it's like
31:47
Speaker 1: that this is like the fairly recent past. But I
31:50
Speaker 1: feel like discourse and you have shifted so rapidly now
31:55
Speaker 1: that it's like I mean, I think about my attitudes
31:58
Speaker 1: towards gay culture and like how yeah, like hyped, I
32:01
Speaker 1: was on it in like high school and like that
32:02
Speaker 1: probably was not but also at that time, I don't know.
32:07
Speaker 1: It's a tricky, tricky area to Yeah, I mean, it
32:11
Speaker 1: takes a little while to figure out how to talk
32:12
Speaker 1: about things, especially if you haven't done it in the past.
32:15
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think people give themselves a little
32:18
Speaker 1: too much slack for not getting it right out the gate.
32:22
Speaker 1: But like, gay culture is awesome. Everyone should have queer friends.
32:26
Speaker 1: If you don't, you're missing out. And gay parties are
32:30
Speaker 1: better than real parties. Yeah, smell way better. Straight parties
32:37
Speaker 1: smell like straight up. I don't know one of the
32:42
Speaker 1: things I wanted to talk about. So this podcast is
32:45
Speaker 1: called the Becto Cast. You probably didn't know that. Again, Jamie,
32:48
Speaker 1: I'm I'm here to I need to like get some
32:51
Speaker 1: self esteem. Like it's so stupid things I need. The
32:55
Speaker 1: puppy has explained to me every single time we'd do it. Oh,
33:00
Speaker 1: anything work. But there are a number of other cinematic
33:05
Speaker 1: tests that you can apply to media, aside from the
33:08
Speaker 1: backto tests that examine representation of other things. And one
33:13
Speaker 1: of the things that I think has come up every
33:15
Speaker 1: once in a while, but I would like to explore
33:17
Speaker 1: it more and it is certainly relevant for this movie
33:20
Speaker 1: is the Vito Russo test, which was named after Vito Russo,
33:25
Speaker 1: a celebrated film historian and the co founder of GLAD
33:30
Speaker 1: and wrote a book The Celluloid Closet, which remains a
33:34
Speaker 1: foundational analysis of LGBTQ portrayals of Hollywood film. A movie
33:40
Speaker 1: passes the Vito Russo test if it contains a character
33:44
Speaker 1: that is identifiably lgbt Q, that character is not solely
33:49
Speaker 1: or predominantly defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity,
33:53
Speaker 1: and the character must be tied to the plot in
33:56
Speaker 1: such a way that their removal would have a significant
34:00
Speaker 1: impact on the story. Yeah, most movies don't even come
34:06
Speaker 1: anywhere close to passing the Veto test. Certainly this movie
34:11
Speaker 1: on we've done on the podcast. I don't think you
34:13
Speaker 1: asked this question on Twitter and I was just firing
34:17
Speaker 1: off like replies, and then I realized that all the
34:20
Speaker 1: movies that I was saying they were just subtext gays,
34:24
Speaker 1: where I was just like a lot of them were
34:26
Speaker 1: Michelle Rodriguez movies. But uh so I wasn't completely wrong,
34:30
Speaker 1: but I didn't realize until literally that I had like
34:34
Speaker 1: an existential meltdown where it was like all those movies
34:37
Speaker 1: were just like they were just coded gay, and so
34:40
Speaker 1: I just counted it so right because a lot of
34:43
Speaker 1: movies will We talked about this, for example on the
34:47
Speaker 1: episode about the Rock, where there is that stylist character
34:50
Speaker 1: who is coded as gay doesn't necessarily identify himself as
34:54
Speaker 1: being gay. Well, and then we get into a lot
34:56
Speaker 1: of trope villain characters, so we are obviously removing Jaffar.
35:01
Speaker 1: Sorry that I always go straight to Jaffar, but I
35:03
Speaker 1: do have a crush on him, and it's never going
35:06
Speaker 1: to happen. She's a gay icon, right, He's a gay
35:09
Speaker 1: icon and also a cartoon who is not real. So
35:12
Speaker 1: it's just never going to happen with me in Jaffar.
35:15
Speaker 1: H But but like, obviously you removed Jaffar, the plot
35:20
Speaker 1: is impacted, but there, but it's yeah, totally codd right,
35:23
Speaker 1: We're right, yeah, and I mean and vilified exactly like yeah,
35:27
Speaker 1: the villains across the border often coded right, Yeah, Disney
35:31
Speaker 1: has a horrid history of this. And then yeah, I know,
35:34
Speaker 1: but it's like, but then the characters are so dope.
35:41
Speaker 1: The last time I went to Disneyland, I didn't know that.
35:43
Speaker 1: It was like it was a gay day at Zealand
35:46
Speaker 1: where there was like a massive meet up of LGBT
35:50
Speaker 1: people at Disneyland, and it was like suddenly away better
35:54
Speaker 1: day that I was originally going to have. It was
35:56
Speaker 1: like everyone's like, it was just so exciting, the energy
35:59
Speaker 1: was it selected, especially once it got to be nighttime
36:02
Speaker 1: and people can start drinking. I was like, this is
36:04
Speaker 1: the greatest Disneyland experience of all time. So great. Yeah.
36:08
Speaker 1: So I wanted to talk about this movie, but I'm
36:11
Speaker 1: a cheerleader in relation to the Vito Russo test, because
36:15
Speaker 1: let's explore this, because the movie definitely has characters who
36:19
Speaker 1: are identifiably l g B t Q. The caveat of
36:24
Speaker 1: the Vito Russo tests that says that a character is
36:27
Speaker 1: not solely or predominantly defined by their sexual orientation or
36:31
Speaker 1: gender identity, I think is where we'll get into a
36:32
Speaker 1: little bit of gray area. Because the whole movie is
36:36
Speaker 1: about whether or not, like these characters being gay and
36:41
Speaker 1: having to because of this camp they're in try to
36:45
Speaker 1: deny themselves of their sexual orientation. So it's it's the
36:48
Speaker 1: whole story is really tied in their and their characters
36:51
Speaker 1: are really tied into the fact that they are gay.
36:54
Speaker 1: So I don't know, do you have a I feel
36:56
Speaker 1: like like Mary and the camp are way more obsessed
37:00
Speaker 1: with their gayness and gender identity than the actual characters.
37:03
Speaker 1: Like when you get down to it, you remember, Graham
37:07
Speaker 1: is more like standoffish and like snobbish, and you know,
37:10
Speaker 1: Megan is just like, you know, this wholesome, like they
37:15
Speaker 1: all have personalities outside of and like even Megan's outing,
37:20
Speaker 1: like her intervention, like it was absurd, Like they were
37:24
Speaker 1: just like you have this poster in your room. It's like, well,
37:26
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean anything. And so I don't know. I
37:29
Speaker 1: think they're gayness definitely comes into it, but I don't
37:33
Speaker 1: think they're just solely defined by Yeah, like you can
37:36
Speaker 1: say other things about these characters totally. Yeah, And by
37:39
Speaker 1: the end of the movie, because I was wondering that
37:42
Speaker 1: a little bit too, but them by the end of
37:43
Speaker 1: the movie, I feel like there's that line that like,
37:46
Speaker 1: there's not just one way to be a lesbian. You
37:48
Speaker 1: have to continue to be who you are. Where that
37:51
Speaker 1: point is made pretty explicitly of just like there's not
37:54
Speaker 1: one way, you just continue to be yourself. The character
37:58
Speaker 1: is saying that as he's handing her mom that just
38:00
Speaker 1: as queer. It was like, is this commentary or just
38:05
Speaker 1: a rogue props? Masters like, there's a there's many ways
38:09
Speaker 1: to be a queer person. Now drink from this mug
38:11
Speaker 1: that Yeah, I don't know. I mean, every character in
38:15
Speaker 1: this movie, I feel like has a discernible personality one
38:18
Speaker 1: way or another. And also Cathy Moriarity's character is gay,
38:23
Speaker 1: are we That was my I don't know. I mean,
38:26
Speaker 1: I don't know. I To me, I was struggling. I
38:30
Speaker 1: was like, is this just a cathe moriarity vibe I'm getting?
38:34
Speaker 1: Is this is this her having like internalized homophobia? To me,
38:39
Speaker 1: it read as her son Rock presents as gay and
38:43
Speaker 1: she basically started this whole camp to be like I
38:46
Speaker 1: have to convert my son into being a HEATERO, and hey,
38:50
Speaker 1: if I can do it with my son, I can
38:51
Speaker 1: do it with anyone. So like, I feel like this
38:53
Speaker 1: whole thing is built around the fact that she doesn't
38:54
Speaker 1: like that she has a gay son, and that's why. Yeah,
38:59
Speaker 1: she's addict and she's not great at being a woman
39:02
Speaker 1: like she does. She has to have plastic flowers, so
39:05
Speaker 1: she's not actually tending to anything, and everything is plastic
39:09
Speaker 1: over it. She can't keep anything clean at very least.
39:13
Speaker 1: She is like intense internalized misogyny because she's just like
39:17
Speaker 1: rubbed the floors. Yeah the boy. Now, I was reading
39:23
Speaker 1: brag the Wikipedia page about this movie, and I don't
39:31
Speaker 1: know if this was the I can't remember this was
39:33
Speaker 1: exactly the intent of the filmmakers or if it was
39:36
Speaker 1: just something that people are like, hey, this her Basically,
39:40
Speaker 1: her character can be seen as the sort of panic
39:44
Speaker 1: surrounding the AIDS crisis, and because she's so obsessed with
39:48
Speaker 1: cleanliness and all of that stuff, where she's sort of
39:52
Speaker 1: symbolizes like the panic around AIDS. And for sure, they
39:55
Speaker 1: don't sleep on that. Like when they're protesting, it's like
39:58
Speaker 1: eight skills baggets there. They're when they're folding napkins at
40:03
Speaker 1: the gay men's home, there's like AIDS ribbon on the napkin,
40:10
Speaker 1: Like yeah, no, you're totally right. I wanted to touch
40:13
Speaker 1: a little bit more on the representation of um. Also
40:17
Speaker 1: on the Wikipedia page about this movie, Jamie Babbitt was
40:23
Speaker 1: saying how she like deliberately cast a lot of the roles,
40:29
Speaker 1: and it seems to be this is especially true for
40:31
Speaker 1: the men who were at true directions, not necessarily as
40:34
Speaker 1: much for the women. But she did put a conscious
40:36
Speaker 1: effort in casting people of color in the different roles,
40:39
Speaker 1: because the characters of Mike, Dolph, and Andre are all
40:44
Speaker 1: people of color. But um, I feel like, I don't know,
40:48
Speaker 1: it just it struck me as a little weird that
40:50
Speaker 1: the like the love story between Megan and Graham, it's
40:54
Speaker 1: still very white, and I feel like I think that
40:57
Speaker 1: if this movie was made today, we would see a
40:59
Speaker 1: little bit more representation of people of color. Yeah, Like,
41:04
Speaker 1: I think she definitely did try and go out of
41:07
Speaker 1: her way to cast people of color, I think back then.
41:11
Speaker 1: So there's probably some people it's like this is too much,
41:14
Speaker 1: but yeah, I know, like, oh, actually, on that note,
41:18
Speaker 1: um it says that bad Bit did briefly consider Rosario
41:22
Speaker 1: Dawson for the role as of Megan, but the executive
41:25
Speaker 1: producer persuaded her the Dawson, who is Latina, would not
41:29
Speaker 1: be right for the quote unquote all American cheerleader Rosario
41:33
Speaker 1: Dawson is now on Jane the Virgin in a lesbian
41:37
Speaker 1: relations she is it's really good, Like I love Jane
41:44
Speaker 1: the vision of my favorite TV show and so underrated.
41:46
Speaker 1: I love it so much. Is not everyone in the
41:48
Speaker 1: entire I've seen all of Jane the Vergon. Rosario Dawson
41:51
Speaker 1: is also just killing it in that role. Just a
41:56
Speaker 1: footnote that she couldn't have known. Tara Dawson plays a
42:00
Speaker 1: great lesbian true ally. I also wanted to ask Jenny
42:06
Speaker 1: Um about how how you feel about straight actors playing
42:09
Speaker 1: gay characters on screen. I do not have a problem
42:14
Speaker 1: with it, you know, I don't think it's uh again,
42:17
Speaker 1: gay isn't like a personality. I think it is a
42:20
Speaker 1: little different for transactors, but I think across the board,
42:24
Speaker 1: like this wouldn't be an issue if they were any
42:27
Speaker 1: part of LGBT were just cast regularly and not just
42:31
Speaker 1: like across the board like passed over for gay or
42:34
Speaker 1: not gay straight roller like, but like they are being
42:37
Speaker 1: shut out, and I think that's it's just part of
42:41
Speaker 1: It's like what we can't even play gay characters like
42:43
Speaker 1: it's it's more that rather than like gay people are
42:47
Speaker 1: the only people who can play gay characters, which I
42:50
Speaker 1: just it's not true. Like, um, I have a little
42:54
Speaker 1: SoundBite from Natasha Leon more recent because she's played several
42:58
Speaker 1: queer characters, but it is straight, but it identifies as straight.
43:03
Speaker 1: But then also tags that by saying, mind you, when
43:06
Speaker 1: I say I'm not gay, it doesn't mean that I've
43:07
Speaker 1: never tried sleeping with women. Of course I have. I'm
43:09
Speaker 1: not a dumb, dumb fun time but she but there's
43:14
Speaker 1: also uh, she she talks about like they're like, you're
43:18
Speaker 1: kind of like a queer icon, but you don't identify
43:22
Speaker 1: as queer, and then she responded. This is a New
43:24
Speaker 1: York Times interview from a year and a half ago.
43:26
Speaker 1: She said, I never want to feel like I'm taking
43:28
Speaker 1: ownership of an experience that's not my own. But it
43:30
Speaker 1: seems like a lot of the female experiences in response
43:32
Speaker 1: to men, and when I play a lesbian character, it
43:34
Speaker 1: means that she's on her own ride. I love men,
43:37
Speaker 1: I want to sleep with as many as possible, but
43:39
Speaker 1: I don't want my whole life and certainly my creative experience,
43:42
Speaker 1: to be in response to just being the girl like
43:45
Speaker 1: who needs it, and then she says she sleeps with
43:47
Speaker 1: him because she's not a dumb dumb So yeah, I
43:52
Speaker 1: I always I wonder. Part of me thinks that it
43:55
Speaker 1: always kind of felt a little weird or wrong when
43:59
Speaker 1: straight actors would play gay characters, because there runs a
44:02
Speaker 1: big risk of them misrepresenting. Sure, and some people have
44:06
Speaker 1: said some really dumb stuff after playing a gay character,
44:09
Speaker 1: like but and like, I would also like to have
44:13
Speaker 1: some LGBT slash queer actors that I can be like
44:17
Speaker 1: hell yeah and root for them, because right now a
44:20
Speaker 1: lot of queer icons are straight, and that is frustrating.
44:25
Speaker 1: I don't think the answer is I don't know. I
44:29
Speaker 1: hope that we can get to a point where gay
44:32
Speaker 1: actors can just be cast in any role, not like
44:35
Speaker 1: they they're seeing. Some of that was briefly a straight icon, toxic,
44:43
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity icon, interesting subversion, so straight that for a
44:48
Speaker 1: while I was just like enough enough that it's like
44:52
Speaker 1: you're hurting people. Rolled back, there be a book about
44:57
Speaker 1: how to use women Neil Patrick's picture on which there was, Oh,
45:03
Speaker 1: but like, Jenelle Manee is out there doing some awesome
45:07
Speaker 1: stuff in terms of everyone of her new songs. I'm
45:10
Speaker 1: just like, oh what a gift, and gift hasn't like
45:14
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga said, like, I only write songs for gay people.
45:18
Speaker 1: Sure that makes sense. Um. I hope to one day
45:24
Speaker 1: be a queer icon as a hope tragically strangers where
45:29
Speaker 1: I still want to be a queer tragic where tragically
45:34
Speaker 1: heteroical where icon. I recently lost my job, so in
45:40
Speaker 1: order to grieve, I went to Vegas this weekend for
45:44
Speaker 1: lesbian sci fi convention Clexicon. It was just a bunch
45:49
Speaker 1: of lesbians running a buck in Vegas and a bunch
45:52
Speaker 1: of shows that have had lesbian pairings and romances and
45:57
Speaker 1: characters were all represented there. There's second con and it
46:01
Speaker 1: was huge, so it's been a huge success. And all
46:05
Speaker 1: the actresses were actors. Sorry, I guess that's reductive as well.
46:11
Speaker 1: All the actors, all women who were there were just
46:14
Speaker 1: like treated like royalty because they just represented these people
46:20
Speaker 1: and people are thirsty for just seeing something up there.
46:25
Speaker 1: But it was a pretty cool place to be. I
46:28
Speaker 1: just you know, throw that out there, good good Vegas weekend. Yeah, yeah,
46:33
Speaker 1: it was. It was pretty cool, very gay, very gay weekend.
46:37
Speaker 1: It was clear Duval and Natasha ly and also played
46:41
Speaker 1: a couple on screen in a movie, Clear Duval, who
46:44
Speaker 1: does identify as queer. They played a couple on screen
46:48
Speaker 1: in a movie. Clear d All wrote like last year, Yes,
46:51
Speaker 1: what's it called The Intervention? Yes? Yes, yes, I reading
46:54
Speaker 1: and I want to see it. Yeah. Same, So back
46:56
Speaker 1: to but I'm a Cheerleader? Oh yeah this movie. Sorry
47:01
Speaker 1: so for but I'm a Cheerleader. It was initially rated
47:05
Speaker 1: by the m p a a As and the director
47:10
Speaker 1: made cuts to allow it to be re rated. Are
47:14
Speaker 1: But the reason that it was rated NC seventeen was
47:18
Speaker 1: a couple of things, like it had nothing even really
47:22
Speaker 1: graphic or anything like that. It was just like a
47:24
Speaker 1: mention of a woman going down on another woman. This
47:27
Speaker 1: movie is hell of vanilla when you actually the only
47:32
Speaker 1: sex scene is it's like kind of boringly tasteful. There's
47:37
Speaker 1: not that much happening, and yeah, it's it's sometimes can't
47:42
Speaker 1: even tell what body Park is being like, yeah, they're like, oh,
47:45
Speaker 1: there's just a lot of skin and right, so it's
47:47
Speaker 1: a PG thirteen sex scene totally. But because of society
47:52
Speaker 1: and how we hold gay things to a different standard,
47:56
Speaker 1: m p a A was like, because it's two women
47:59
Speaker 1: in a homosexual sex scene. It's so obscene and so
48:04
Speaker 1: graphic that we have to give it in an NC
48:06
Speaker 1: seventeen riting. I suspect it's a double whammy where it's
48:09
Speaker 1: gay and female pleasure. Yeah. Uh. She masturbates halfway through, right,
48:16
Speaker 1: she does over the clothes, but still she's obviously Natasha
48:20
Speaker 1: Leon's masturbation facial expressions. I'm just like, have you masturbated before?
48:26
Speaker 1: Most people don't turn into cartoon characters. She also has
48:31
Speaker 1: like eyes that are like one third of her face.
48:34
Speaker 1: She is very but her eyes were like she would
48:37
Speaker 1: like poke at her own vagina and then her eyes
48:39
Speaker 1: would roll back into her head. I'm like, this is
48:41
Speaker 1: an interesting She's also like vaguely praying. I think as
48:45
Speaker 1: she's okay, this is a terrible realization to have. Oh,
48:52
Speaker 1: I'm very hard in the game. So that was one
48:56
Speaker 1: of the scenes in the movie that didn't quite I
48:59
Speaker 1: don't know if it did track for me or I
49:01
Speaker 1: just like found it odd where she had just had
49:03
Speaker 1: a sex dream where she was kissing Clara to Ball's character.
49:06
Speaker 1: She goes into the room a different room and starts masturbating,
49:10
Speaker 1: but then sees two men kissing and then says gross,
49:15
Speaker 1: and then she basically rats them out. So she wrats
49:17
Speaker 1: out her fellow, she's a snitch, and then no one
49:20
Speaker 1: gives her any shit about it. They're just like mom, Like,
49:24
Speaker 1: I felt like there should be some aftermath a little
49:27
Speaker 1: shit about it. But I think it's part of the
49:29
Speaker 1: thing where it's like all of them are so scared,
49:31
Speaker 1: all of them are trying to be Yeah, I mean,
49:35
Speaker 1: it didn't take much to push her over the edge
49:37
Speaker 1: and be like, oh that is someone else. It's where
49:40
Speaker 1: it's like you're experiencing the same things, but it's way
49:43
Speaker 1: easier to villainize someone else. Granted, yeah, the two guys
49:47
Speaker 1: who she catches do say shut the funk up a
49:50
Speaker 1: little bit. I thought that was hilarious. Like, I, no,
49:53
Speaker 1: I know that I shouldn't have left, but that's one
49:55
Speaker 1: of my It's like Rufio is furious that, but yeah,
50:04
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like there was an opportunity
50:06
Speaker 1: for maybe some more tension, for the other characters to
50:08
Speaker 1: be like, hey, we're like, you know, we're all confused
50:11
Speaker 1: and like, how could you rat out your fellow? I mean,
50:14
Speaker 1: I think to a certain extent, they're partially brainwashed a
50:18
Speaker 1: little too, because I mean they grew up in the
50:20
Speaker 1: same like, this isn't what Mary's telling them isn't so
50:24
Speaker 1: insanely foreign to them, Like they've been hearing it all
50:26
Speaker 1: their lives. So I think that even when they're just like,
50:29
Speaker 1: well this is kind of who I am, there's like
50:32
Speaker 1: a grain of like, well this is bad as well,
50:35
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. Um, back to the So
50:38
Speaker 1: the movie was rated initially NC seventeen, and um, it's
50:44
Speaker 1: now barely in our like there's aside from a few
50:49
Speaker 1: times where characters say like fuck, Like, I feel like
50:52
Speaker 1: it could get away with a PG thirteen rating. I
50:54
Speaker 1: think so a few a few funks edited out, and
50:58
Speaker 1: this is easily a PG. Theretem Yeah, what was Blackerd's rated? Oh,
51:03
Speaker 1: I it has to be are I think, Yeah, I
51:05
Speaker 1: don't know for sure, but characters they funk a lot,
51:07
Speaker 1: And I think I don't know. It was just the
51:10
Speaker 1: movie that I could think of most recently that would
51:13
Speaker 1: be analogous to a teen ROMP. Yeah, I don't it
51:17
Speaker 1: is okay. The documentary, Um, this film is not yet right.
51:20
Speaker 1: It explores the sort of double standard. I think she
51:23
Speaker 1: talks about the actual scenes she had to cut, I
51:26
Speaker 1: think so, and then that documentary also it'll put up
51:29
Speaker 1: like side by side sex scenes where gay sex is
51:33
Speaker 1: being shown, and then right next to that a sex
51:36
Speaker 1: scene where it's heterosex and they can be virtually identical
51:41
Speaker 1: except for the fact that one of them is gay
51:42
Speaker 1: and one of them is not. And the movies with
51:45
Speaker 1: the gay sex scene almost always get the n C
51:48
Speaker 1: seventeen rating, whereas the movies with the hetero sex scene,
51:52
Speaker 1: even if they're not any less graphic or show, you know,
51:56
Speaker 1: like it's not as others like Dick's flying everywhere, like
51:58
Speaker 1: hard to write, Like the the board, it's pretty vanilla,
52:02
Speaker 1: and it's okay sex to the point where you can
52:04
Speaker 1: just go just the tiniest notch above and I'm like, oh,
52:07
Speaker 1: are we going, Like I'll just like be running around
52:09
Speaker 1: the room, just like I can't believe that she gets
52:12
Speaker 1: into a panic. I mean, it just shows that the
52:15
Speaker 1: like gay sexuality is held to a different standard by
52:19
Speaker 1: society and it's seen as more graphic and obscene. And well,
52:24
Speaker 1: I also think that doing it right, it might be
52:28
Speaker 1: that's also all sex. I don't know, And it is
52:32
Speaker 1: such a it's frustrating to hear stuff like that, because
52:35
Speaker 1: it does come down to such an issue of access,
52:38
Speaker 1: where this is a movie that was successful. It had
52:42
Speaker 1: only had a one million dollar budget and ended up
52:44
Speaker 1: making two point six million. But this is like the
52:47
Speaker 1: sort of movie where that if there was access given,
52:50
Speaker 1: if this did have a PG thirteen rating, which it
52:53
Speaker 1: easily could have, and was widely released, there could be
52:57
Speaker 1: so many more young people who could have seen a
53:00
Speaker 1: competent text and had access to it. This movie was
53:04
Speaker 1: super important to me, and I wouldn't have seen it.
53:06
Speaker 1: My friend wasn't like this. Yeah, it was only released
53:08
Speaker 1: in something like a hundred and fifteen theaters across the country.
53:12
Speaker 1: It had such a small theatrical release. Who knows what
53:15
Speaker 1: like movie distributors are thinking. I don't know the intricacies
53:18
Speaker 1: of that aspect of exhibition risk. Like I think at
53:23
Speaker 1: the end of the day, all movie released, they don't
53:25
Speaker 1: want to take a risk, whether it be people, fella,
53:29
Speaker 1: gay people, women, all that stuff. If this movie came
53:32
Speaker 1: out now, I feel like it would have gotten a
53:34
Speaker 1: way wider release. And and I mean because like I'm
53:39
Speaker 1: gonna keep harping about love Simon, but I literally have
53:43
Speaker 1: the Wikipedia rating. But that's what Simon rated. It's Oh
53:47
Speaker 1: good question. I don't know, but I know that it
53:50
Speaker 1: It has a seventeen million budget and has so far
53:53
Speaker 1: netted forty five. Like it's like movies, It's good. It's love.
53:58
Speaker 1: Simon is PG thirteen years Kid. So one of the
54:01
Speaker 1: last things I wanted to say about this movie is,
54:04
Speaker 1: so when I was rewatching this and hadn't seen it
54:06
Speaker 1: in a while and didn't totally remember all of the
54:09
Speaker 1: details about it, the first probably three or so minutes
54:12
Speaker 1: that you see of this movie, like the opening sequence
54:15
Speaker 1: of like the credits and everything like that, is just
54:18
Speaker 1: like again disembodied female parts. A lot of shots of boobs,
54:22
Speaker 1: a lot of shots of cheerleaders doing splits, You see
54:25
Speaker 1: their cratches, you see their butts, you see their like abs,
54:27
Speaker 1: like all these like very sexualized images of like the
54:30
Speaker 1: female form. And then you're like, oh, wow, this is
54:32
Speaker 1: like some male gaze ship But then you realize it's
54:35
Speaker 1: not coming from the male gaze per se. It's coming
54:37
Speaker 1: from how Megan is viewing these characters. So it's really
54:41
Speaker 1: coming from a lesbian female gaze, which who's probably trying
54:47
Speaker 1: desperately not to think of such things, which probably does
54:50
Speaker 1: not help. And I have complicated feelings about this where
54:54
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, well, that's cool that you you're seeing
54:57
Speaker 1: this imagery from a different perspective and from a different gaze,
55:00
Speaker 1: but it's also like, should we really be objectifying women's bodies?
55:05
Speaker 1: I don't know. I for for me, that was subverted
55:09
Speaker 1: enough so that it worked. And that's true of almost
55:13
Speaker 1: every stereotype present in this movie, where there's and and
55:18
Speaker 1: correct me if there's anything, but like most of the
55:22
Speaker 1: stereotypes in terms of how the movie is framed in
55:25
Speaker 1: terms of the characterismself, almost every stereotype presented is commented
55:29
Speaker 1: upon in some way to the point where it's challenged
55:34
Speaker 1: or re contextualized. For me, that that those shots were
55:37
Speaker 1: recontextualized in such a way that it was like, it's
55:40
Speaker 1: weird because it's like, oh now we're getting into like
55:42
Speaker 1: some some filmmajor tripe of you know, visually static image.
55:46
Speaker 1: It's the same way you could have a male looking
55:50
Speaker 1: at cheerleaders, but the context is so different. I feel
55:55
Speaker 1: like goes hand in hand with like objectifying and not
55:58
Speaker 1: caring about women, Like her boy friend is like, you
56:01
Speaker 1: don't even like to kiss me. He knows that, and
56:04
Speaker 1: he's still kissing her, and like you see her she's
56:08
Speaker 1: attracted to female bodies, yes, but she's also like super
56:11
Speaker 1: supportive of her friends and like you know, even at
56:14
Speaker 1: the camp, like Graham has been kind of shitty to her,
56:17
Speaker 1: She's just like, hey, do you need a hand, and
56:20
Speaker 1: she's she's so I think that, yeah, she's might be
56:26
Speaker 1: viewing women sexually and just kind of like that might
56:29
Speaker 1: be detached. But I also think it goes back to
56:32
Speaker 1: the thing like she's probably trying not to think of
56:34
Speaker 1: like you know that, so it's probably amplified a little
56:38
Speaker 1: in terms of like she's also a teenage exactly now
56:44
Speaker 1: that anything about it. I want to watch the trailer
56:46
Speaker 1: for this movie because I bet it's kind of I
56:48
Speaker 1: would guess it's bad. The line used to market this
56:53
Speaker 1: movie it was but I'm a cheerleader, a comedy of
56:55
Speaker 1: social disorientation, which could mean so much. It's like, just
57:01
Speaker 1: tell us what the movie is about. As a pre
57:03
Speaker 1: nine eleven world, we didn't know that market things social
57:07
Speaker 1: disorientation right this year this movie came out nine I
57:12
Speaker 1: think if I mean, we say this a lot on
57:14
Speaker 1: the podcast, but like if this movie was rewritten and
57:17
Speaker 1: remade today it would be so different. So but for
57:20
Speaker 1: the time, this movie is very progressive considering, I would agree. Yeah,
57:29
Speaker 1: I think it's like nine to five where it's like
57:32
Speaker 1: you could tell it was made in the past, but
57:34
Speaker 1: the points are still pretty salient. Yeah, I mean there
57:37
Speaker 1: was nothing in particular with it stood out to this
57:39
Speaker 1: movie of like, yikes, that does not age very well, right,
57:42
Speaker 1: I mean I think that, yeah, the points that maybe
57:44
Speaker 1: be hit home harder in a different way than they
57:47
Speaker 1: were then. Now maybe there would be like more do
57:51
Speaker 1: you don't have anything that stuck out to you as
57:52
Speaker 1: like not not really, I think the only the only
57:55
Speaker 1: real thing is it was very noticeable that almost all
57:59
Speaker 1: of the women who were at true directions were white
58:02
Speaker 1: women and the um. That's not to say that the
58:07
Speaker 1: movie is completely devoid of people of color, because it's not.
58:10
Speaker 1: But I think you know that that was a choice
58:14
Speaker 1: that was made and in it's pretty glaring today. Um
58:18
Speaker 1: Rosaria Dawson casting comments speaks a lot to the time
58:22
Speaker 1: this movie was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think also if
58:25
Speaker 1: it was made today, some updates might be that, like
58:28
Speaker 1: it would be more inclusive of like trans people or
58:31
Speaker 1: non binary people. Or by people just like any one
58:34
Speaker 1: else on the queer spectrum, trying to think you had
58:38
Speaker 1: cast if it were today, I think we'll feel like
58:41
Speaker 1: Gina Rodriguez would be a strong contender for one of these.
58:47
Speaker 1: Did you see her Annihilation? No? I haven't seen Annihilation
58:50
Speaker 1: at so much. It's really overwhelming. That movie is very
58:57
Speaker 1: pro has I'm in. I want to give my dollars
59:02
Speaker 1: to people who like Gina Rodriguez only she's so great.
59:07
Speaker 1: Does anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? I
59:11
Speaker 1: wanted to shout out make Stole, who plays Megan's mom,
59:15
Speaker 1: who's in every John uh Not John Hughes, Oh my god,
59:20
Speaker 1: Oh my god, John waters John Watersman, sorry for just
59:23
Speaker 1: having a peg. There's the French person who tries to
59:28
Speaker 1: dance with Megan. Yes, I like that are most hateful
59:35
Speaker 1: and most hateful way to take advantage of just how
59:39
Speaker 1: Michelle was resting face looks. They're like, we're gonna make
59:42
Speaker 1: her do something really mean. She has a mean resting face,
59:48
Speaker 1: which I respond to very powerful. Yes, your disdain is
59:54
Speaker 1: like food. I wish that there were more gay or
59:58
Speaker 1: queer comedies. I think there's a huge fucking deficit that
1:00:04
Speaker 1: there's a lot of I mean, it's very important to
1:00:06
Speaker 1: remember your history and remember and to you know, shine
1:00:10
Speaker 1: a light on issues faced in the gay, lesbian, trans,
1:00:14
Speaker 1: bisexual queer community. But oh man, comedy would not go amiss. Yes,
1:00:21
Speaker 1: and there's like a huge market for it. Yeah. I
1:00:25
Speaker 1: know we have conflicting thoughts on Scott Thompson, but he
1:00:28
Speaker 1: was the first gay person I saw on TV. And
1:00:31
Speaker 1: he was also the first gay person who fucking loved
1:00:34
Speaker 1: being gay and was just like, I'm so happy I'm gay.
1:00:38
Speaker 1: My life is better because I'm gay. And uh, definitely
1:00:42
Speaker 1: I haven't seen much of that since, like even today,
1:00:45
Speaker 1: Like it's just like not in the mainstream certainly. Oh man,
1:00:48
Speaker 1: it's pretty kick ass being gay something, which I mean,
1:00:52
Speaker 1: this has become a pretty cult movie and it's pretty
1:00:55
Speaker 1: recognizable to I mean, a lot of people have at
1:00:58
Speaker 1: least heard of this movie. Maybe not I host, but
1:01:00
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people know about this movie.
1:01:02
Speaker 1: Give a guys. Yeah, I don't know. I wish i'd
1:01:05
Speaker 1: seen this movie sooner. Yeah, it's kind of one of
1:01:07
Speaker 1: the few movies about like queer culture that has kind
1:01:13
Speaker 1: of crossed over into the mainstream. I have seen a
1:01:16
Speaker 1: few game movies that um, I know rag that most
1:01:22
Speaker 1: people have not heard of at all. Uh, and that
1:01:25
Speaker 1: our only popular community movies. Or it's just like it's weird,
1:01:31
Speaker 1: like because straight people do often their takeaway from gay
1:01:35
Speaker 1: movies is just like it's like, oh, you didn't get
1:01:37
Speaker 1: what you were watching. You should. You don't even realize how.
1:01:41
Speaker 1: Just by the way, the other three the only three
1:01:44
Speaker 1: lesbian comedies in existence. But I'm a cheer litter. Debs
1:01:49
Speaker 1: and possibly Imagine Me and You, Oh Debs, I haven't
1:01:55
Speaker 1: seen Deb's or Imagine Me and you. Um, Debs gets
1:01:58
Speaker 1: recommended to us to do on the podcast all the time.
1:02:00
Speaker 1: You guys, we got to do an episode. Oh god, guys,
1:02:06
Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing. Yeah again, very campy, very campy sounds great, um,
1:02:12
Speaker 1: which I'm not saying is a deterrent, but it's a
1:02:15
Speaker 1: quality film. Give it a describes a end of list.
1:02:20
Speaker 1: It's not even my favorite comedy, it's just the ones.
1:02:23
Speaker 1: Those are the comedy lesbian comedies that exist. I would
1:02:27
Speaker 1: love to be proven wrong. Tweet me, well, it's now
1:02:30
Speaker 1: is the time. Any lesbian writers out there who want
1:02:34
Speaker 1: to write more lesbian comedies please do it right right
1:02:40
Speaker 1: the stuff. Do it right now. We're millionaires, will give
1:02:43
Speaker 1: you our millions. My favorite gay thing in existence is
1:02:47
Speaker 1: gay mail web series called The Wonders Life Game Wondrous
1:02:52
Speaker 1: Life of Kale Galo Gayo Gallo Gallo. It's on YouTube.
1:02:57
Speaker 1: It might be the best thing in existence. It is
1:03:00
Speaker 1: gay case. It's so good, it's so funny. Freckle is
1:03:04
Speaker 1: a main character. Who is Freckle is the what the
1:03:11
Speaker 1: Wondrous gay and Wondrous life of Caleb Gallo. Oh, Jimmie,
1:03:15
Speaker 1: I really think you would. Spectral cast listeners, please watch
1:03:21
Speaker 1: this web series if you haven't already so excited. It's
1:03:24
Speaker 1: so good. Described as Will and Grace on Speed just
1:03:28
Speaker 1: does I feel like Will and Grace is reductive in
1:03:31
Speaker 1: this sense? It is so much more, so much more. Oh,
1:03:35
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. I don't know. It's great. Yeah, this
1:03:40
Speaker 1: movie was probably instrumental in me eventually coming out. That's great.
1:03:44
Speaker 1: And then again, we talked about this a lot on
1:03:46
Speaker 1: the podcast. But like movies and media are so influential,
1:03:50
Speaker 1: especially to young people or just people who find themselves
1:03:54
Speaker 1: not represented on screen, where if they do see a
1:03:56
Speaker 1: glimpse of someone like them, it's really powerful. Yeah, I'm
1:04:00
Speaker 1: glad it's for people who are too stupid to know that.
1:04:05
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I watched Pizze Dragon on
1:04:07
Speaker 1: repeat because I had a huge honking crush on Helen Ready,
1:04:10
Speaker 1: who was a lighthousekeeper, and I thought I just wanted
1:04:13
Speaker 1: to do chores in a lighthouse. That was my sexual
1:04:16
Speaker 1: orientation for a long time. Try and explaining trans is
1:04:21
Speaker 1: so much easier parents than being like mom, tad I'm
1:04:23
Speaker 1: in love with lighthouses. So yeah, I will shout out
1:04:29
Speaker 1: to queer dummies. I only had crushes on cartoon characters,
1:04:34
Speaker 1: you know, up until as recently as today. The Dragon
1:04:40
Speaker 1: from Pizza Dragon for Anastasia. For me, Anastasia was anaesthesia.
1:04:44
Speaker 1: Technically Dmitri is Anastasia, but like genderal lift, it's like
1:04:48
Speaker 1: like Dmitri hot. I don't know. I just wanted to
1:04:51
Speaker 1: say I said gay a bunch of times, but I
1:04:54
Speaker 1: think if I still use gay as like queer and
1:04:57
Speaker 1: like an all encompassing LGBT thing, which some people find exclusionary.
1:05:02
Speaker 1: But yeah, that sure, yeah listeners out there, Um yeah,
1:05:08
Speaker 1: the language. I feel like people are still trying to
1:05:10
Speaker 1: figure out exactly what language to use in a lot
1:05:12
Speaker 1: of situations because like some people find queer offensive, like
1:05:17
Speaker 1: within the LGBT community, but I think it's I prefer it.
1:05:21
Speaker 1: I think we on the podcast kind of use it
1:05:23
Speaker 1: as an umbrella term to describe anyone who's sexual orientation
1:05:30
Speaker 1: and or gender identity does not fall within Sorry, I
1:05:34
Speaker 1: know you're trying to wrap up, and I'm like, let's
1:05:36
Speaker 1: unpack all the language we just used. So we're always
1:05:41
Speaker 1: trying to do better. And if you, perhaps one of
1:05:44
Speaker 1: our listeners know of the term we may not know
1:05:47
Speaker 1: of we're addicted to information, let us not. We we
1:05:53
Speaker 1: we're hoping that our language, the queer community loves to share. Yes,
1:05:59
Speaker 1: we want, we want our language and our perspectives on
1:06:02
Speaker 1: things to be inclusive. If we're making any missteps, please
1:06:07
Speaker 1: let us know so that we can correct ourselves in
1:06:08
Speaker 1: the future. That being said, whether or not this movie
1:06:12
Speaker 1: passes the BACTO test, h it does, crazy but so yeah,
1:06:22
Speaker 1: I'll talk to it time. Also a movie I haven't
1:06:26
Speaker 1: still seen. Yes women talking to Yes. Um. Yeah. So
1:06:32
Speaker 1: Megan and Graham talk a bunch. Megan and Mary talk
1:06:35
Speaker 1: about all there's tons of female characters and they all
1:06:37
Speaker 1: talk to each other and sometimes they are mentioning a man,
1:06:39
Speaker 1: but for the most part, the conversations are more about
1:06:43
Speaker 1: sexual orientation and it's a non issue in this movie. Totally, yeah,
1:06:47
Speaker 1: no question about it. It passes it. Also, like we
1:06:50
Speaker 1: concluded earlier, it passes the Vito Russo test, which I'd
1:06:54
Speaker 1: have to really go back and look at the list
1:06:56
Speaker 1: of all the movies we've covered on the podcast so far,
1:06:58
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's maybe the first movie to
1:07:01
Speaker 1: pass the Veto Russo tests that we've done so far.
1:07:04
Speaker 1: Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. Let's do
1:07:06
Speaker 1: it so I would give it four point five. I'm
1:07:11
Speaker 1: going to take a half nipple off for the fact
1:07:15
Speaker 1: that it could have been a little bit more intersectional,
1:07:19
Speaker 1: representing not just gay and lesbian characters, but also other
1:07:24
Speaker 1: people on the sexuality and gender identity spectrum as well.
1:07:29
Speaker 1: Is um could have been better representation of women of color.
1:07:34
Speaker 1: Aside from that, though, I it's such a fun movie.
1:07:38
Speaker 1: It is great that this movie exists, that it's a funny,
1:07:41
Speaker 1: lighthearted but also providing a lot of commentary on important
1:07:46
Speaker 1: issues like heteronormativity in gender roles and all that stuff.
1:07:50
Speaker 1: So it's it's getting a lot done while also being
1:07:52
Speaker 1: extremely entertaining. Yeah, it's just a great fun romp that
1:07:59
Speaker 1: I really enjoy, don't so yes, four and half nipples.
1:08:07
Speaker 1: I'll give one to Megan, one to Graham, one to
1:08:12
Speaker 1: jan one too. We didn't talk about this character really,
1:08:15
Speaker 1: but Hillary from New Zealand Melanieland Australian or New Zealand
1:08:21
Speaker 1: New Zealand. Oh God, I love meld She's God bring
1:08:25
Speaker 1: her back chair. Also, her accent serves her so well.
1:08:28
Speaker 1: When you first made her, it's like lunch it'll leave.
1:08:33
Speaker 1: Gay people who like rules, by the way, are the
1:08:35
Speaker 1: most hysterical tragic to me. Ever, she was like pointing
1:08:40
Speaker 1: at that chart, and I mean they she loves the chat,
1:08:44
Speaker 1: the chat steep and then my half nipple will go
1:08:52
Speaker 1: to let's say, Michelle Williams, just because I forgot she
1:08:57
Speaker 1: was Yeah, cool, I gonna give it, uh fo uh.
1:09:02
Speaker 1: Sort Of based on the same reasons you described, I
1:09:05
Speaker 1: think across the board at this very well lacks intersectionality
1:09:08
Speaker 1: that I would wager was not present literally anywhere at
1:09:13
Speaker 1: the time, so there wasn't really a road map for it. Um.
1:09:17
Speaker 1: But there are some piky areas where for a reasons
1:09:20
Speaker 1: we've already discussed it could do a little bit better,
1:09:22
Speaker 1: but in terms of almost everything, it's like, you know,
1:09:26
Speaker 1: just having a movie made by a queer artist. I
1:09:32
Speaker 1: just wish that more people had been able to see
1:09:34
Speaker 1: it at the time and feel like the world would
1:09:36
Speaker 1: have been a little bit better if that were the case.
1:09:39
Speaker 1: Uh So, I'm gonna give four nippies. I'm gonna give
1:09:43
Speaker 1: two of the nippies to Megan we Have. I'm going
1:09:45
Speaker 1: to give my other ones to Melanie Lynskey because I
1:09:48
Speaker 1: just love her so much. She's so good in Heavenly Creatures.
1:09:50
Speaker 1: She's so good in everything. I really do love her.
1:09:54
Speaker 1: God bring back Melanie Lynskey. Now. I think you guys
1:09:58
Speaker 1: are spot on for the inner sectionality thing. I really do,
1:10:02
Speaker 1: especially since it is for her first movie and she
1:10:04
Speaker 1: was still trying to be like I would still like
1:10:06
Speaker 1: to make it as intersectional as possible. There's definitely more
1:10:10
Speaker 1: she could have done. I think she tried. But at
1:10:12
Speaker 1: the same time, like, the gay community is in a
1:10:14
Speaker 1: unique spot where they can be like, this is what
1:10:17
Speaker 1: we want to be about, and there is like a
1:10:19
Speaker 1: racism problem because racist on a systemic but but like you,
1:10:24
Speaker 1: I think the gay community is in a unique position
1:10:26
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, we want to be about inclusivity
1:10:29
Speaker 1: and intersectionality. But I'm still going to give this movie
1:10:32
Speaker 1: all the nips five It's my It's one of my
1:10:37
Speaker 1: favorite movies. I'm sorry, thousand percent agree with you on
1:10:42
Speaker 1: the intersectionality thing. I'll give it to Clear Duval, who
1:10:45
Speaker 1: is my route, and just hero one to Jan who
1:10:49
Speaker 1: I think is one of the most important characters in
1:10:52
Speaker 1: the film. Totally gets overlooked. I think. I think even
1:10:56
Speaker 1: when I first watched it, I thought she was a
1:10:58
Speaker 1: little bit more of a punchline then she deserved to
1:11:01
Speaker 1: be Like I thought it was hilarious, like who does
1:11:03
Speaker 1: she think she's getting? But now I watch it and
1:11:05
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, she is the best of us all.
1:11:08
Speaker 1: She is the most important character. I don't even know
1:11:11
Speaker 1: how she would fall now, Like I don't know if
1:11:14
Speaker 1: she really was straight or she was, you know, to
1:11:17
Speaker 1: do it and maybe, but I think it's it's cool.
1:11:21
Speaker 1: She's like, you're you know, you're not even putting me
1:11:23
Speaker 1: in the right box now, Like I think she was
1:11:26
Speaker 1: just kind of cool and very fluid in whatever she
1:11:30
Speaker 1: decided to be. I will give one to that vaginal pillow,
1:11:33
Speaker 1: which was incredible. Let me just throw a nip on
1:11:36
Speaker 1: the just throw a nip on it. Yeah, there RuPaul
1:11:41
Speaker 1: the soundtrack. At one point Rock is dancing to a
1:11:45
Speaker 1: RuPaul song and I think I have one where left
1:11:52
Speaker 1: one to Mary's very deep voice, which I loved beautiful.
1:11:56
Speaker 1: When she comes in at night with like a flashlight,
1:11:58
Speaker 1: She's like, Megan, you got a phone call? I was
1:12:02
Speaker 1: just like, Oh, that's my sexual orientation. It's an older
1:12:07
Speaker 1: woman shining a flashlight, get a phone. And when she's
1:12:13
Speaker 1: on the phone, she's just in her bed, in her
1:12:15
Speaker 1: silk sheets, tuning an acoustic talks. So weird. Why Yeah,
1:12:22
Speaker 1: she's very never explained in this movie. Are the most
1:12:25
Speaker 1: important to me. Kathy Mariarty is so intentionally in the
1:12:28
Speaker 1: background of that entire scene the whole time, and it's
1:12:31
Speaker 1: so unclear. One great movie. Yes, um, well, Jenny, thank
1:12:36
Speaker 1: you so much for being where people. Thank you. So
1:12:43
Speaker 1: do you guys call your fans? That is what we
1:12:44
Speaker 1: call reason? Yeah we could have done better, but yeah,
1:12:50
Speaker 1: no one was like what if. We're like yeah, so
1:12:52
Speaker 1: I just like to tack head onto anything. Well, thanks
1:12:56
Speaker 1: for being a fan, thanks for being here today, and
1:12:59
Speaker 1: thanks for predating us this movie and is there anything
1:13:01
Speaker 1: you would like to plug? And also where can people
1:13:03
Speaker 1: follow you online? I am a comedian. You can find me.
1:13:08
Speaker 1: My name is my Twitter and Facebook and everything else.
1:13:11
Speaker 1: It's Jenny Chilikian. Sorry that name does not roll off
1:13:14
Speaker 1: the tongue. It is H A L I K I
1:13:18
Speaker 1: A N and Uh. I have a really cool show
1:13:20
Speaker 1: that I do with Aaron Judge every third Thursday in
1:13:23
Speaker 1: Culver City called Romantic Comedy. Such a great show. We
1:13:27
Speaker 1: usually have an incredible lineup. Both of you have been
1:13:29
Speaker 1: on it and Uh. In May we're having Nel Scovell
1:13:33
Speaker 1: as one of our guests, and we just have a
1:13:36
Speaker 1: really cool It's usually mostly women and it takes place
1:13:40
Speaker 1: in a bookstore, the Ripped Bodusty, which is just they
1:13:44
Speaker 1: sell exclusively romance and erotica and also just feminist texts
1:13:49
Speaker 1: about all sorts. But it's a really cool bookstore. Everyone
1:13:53
Speaker 1: who goes through there's just it's it's a cool place
1:13:56
Speaker 1: to hang out. Yeah. So yeah, if you live in
1:13:57
Speaker 1: l A, check out Jenny Show. You can check us
1:14:00
Speaker 1: out on social media as well at bectol cast on
1:14:04
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram. Subscribe to our Patreon for Crying Out Loud.
1:14:08
Speaker 1: It's five dollars a month and you get access to
1:14:10
Speaker 1: to bonus episodes every single month. Wow, I know. Incredible. Also,
1:14:16
Speaker 1: it really hard for this podcast put a lot of
1:14:20
Speaker 1: materials we do, so give us your freaking money about it.
1:14:23
Speaker 1: We love content by our merch. We have really cute stickers,
1:14:26
Speaker 1: we've got really cute buttons, and it's very aggressive also
1:14:30
Speaker 1: by our merch. Merch. It was like, well I'm going
1:14:34
Speaker 1: to yeah, it's just Mary's voice. Well, there you have it,
1:14:42
Speaker 1: our discussion of but I'm a cheerleader. Jenny, thanks again
1:14:46
Speaker 1: for being here and everyone, just have a really special day. Okay. Bye,