Latest / The Wild Idea / Robert Lester & Ben Kaden: Sharing the Spectacle of the Brooks Range, One Step At a Time

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Robert Lester & Ben Kaden: Sharing the Spectacle of the Brooks Range, One Step At a Time · The Wild Idea

• 0:02
  [instrumental music plays] We are rolling along on our continuing conversation on the wild, connected, and ever-changing world we live in. You have found what we call the Wild Idea Podcast. My name is Bill Hodge, and along with Anders Reynolds, we have been exploring the intersection of our own human nature and that connection with wild nature with some pretty amazing guests. And this week is no different as we visit with adventure athletes and filmmakers Robert Lester and Ben Caden to talk about their journey into the heart of the Brooks Range to explore what is at risk with a boondoggle of an idea called the Ambler Road. And I'm super excited to talk about this movie, uh, to talk a little bit about what's at risk of the landscape that they explored. But, uh, I'm also equally excited to bring in my partner in crime, Anders. How you doing today?
• 0:50
  Oh, hi, Bill. Uh, I'm doing well. I'm excited to talk about, um, filmmaking in Alaska. There's been some pretty good Alaskan-based movies over the year. I'm thinking about Into the Wild and, uh, the Christopher Nolan thriller Insomnia. Um, one of my personal favorites, The Edge with Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin. Always really liked that one. Harold Perrineau was in that, uh, like right after he played
• 1:20
  Mercutio in, in, um, Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet. Anyway, lots of good ones.
• 1:26
  Yeah.
• 1:26
  Um,
• 1:28
  if you had to recast an Alaskan-set movie
• 1:33
  with me in it as the lead or one of the leads, what movie would you pick?
• 1:39
  Uh, that's a good question. Man, you like to put me on the spot with these. Um,
• 1:45
  I am going to take the movie Never Cry Wolf,
• 1:50
  um, based, based on a, a novel by, by Farley Mowat. Um-
• 1:56
  Excuse me? What's his name?
• 1:58
  Farley Mowat.
• 1:59
  What a name. Oh, wait, I know that name. Isn't that, uh, Deliverance?
• 2:04
  Yes, that is correct. [laughs] Very different movie we're talking about here, but, uh, but yes, uh, Canadian author, um, environmentalist, um, wrote the, wrote the book that became, uh, a famous or infamous movie, Deliverance, for sure. But, uh, honestly, Never Cry Wolf is one of my favorite
• 2:24
  movies in general, certainly probably my favorite movie, uh, set in Alaska. It is a, a desk-bound, uh, member of the Fish and Wildlife Service randomly being selected to go
• 2:40
  do field research on the decline of the caribou herd. Uh, they're just wanting to prove that it was because of wolf predation so that they could institute, uh, more take of wolves. Uh, but the movie is very complex. But I think the reason I would want to see you in that [laughs] is I just... It's a real fish out of, fish out of water kind of movie, and it would be really fun to, uh,
• 3:03
  to just be a voyeur and watching you
• 3:07
  survive in the Alaska wilds of your own devices. So I'm going to say Never Cry Wolf.
• 3:12
  I see. You do love to be a voyeur of my life.
• 3:15
  How are you going to cast me in an Alaska movie? I want to hear this.
• 3:18
  Uh, this is easy. I would pick the Werner Herzog documentary, Grizzly Man, about Timothy Treadwell. [laughs]
• 3:25
  Because you want to see me eaten by a bear?
• 3:27
  Oh, spoiler alert. What if people didn't know that?
• 3:30
  [laughs]
• 3:31
  Oh, so sad. No, because, like, I think you and, um, Timothy
• 3:37
  have some similarities. You know, you have like a
• 3:41
  dangerous disregard for wildlife safety rules. You have like a anthropomorphic view of grizzly bears.
• 3:47
  [laughs]
• 3:48
  Um, I think you, you kind of both have like pageboy haircuts. [laughs]
• 3:54
  [laughs]
• 3:55
  And I think ultimately you will succumb to the fatal consequences of your decisions. [laughs]
• 4:00
  In my case, I'm going to be, I'm going to be eaten by the, by the corvids that I feed peanuts, is probably what it's going to be for me, for sure. But, uh-
• 4:08
  I'm so glad you brought this up. My other opening I was considering for this is you haven't mentioned the corvids in so long. I used to give you so much, um, guff about the corvids. Uh, they're, they're still here, huh?
• 4:21
  They are, they are here. Uh, they are, uh,
• 4:24
  both blue jays and stellers, uh, are here. Uh, I love having them here every, every time, this time of year. And, um, yeah, so, well, I'm glad it's not because you, you relish the idea of watching me be eaten. You know, one thing about that movie that sticks out to me is that, that, oh, that scene where Herzog is listening to the audio from the attack in front of Timothy's friend, and he begs of her to never listen to that audio. Like, it,
• 4:52
  that's pretty, pretty extr- extraordinary filmmaking if you ask me. We never hear it, right? But-
• 4:59
  Yeah, you never hear it. It is pretty extraordinary filmmaking, and it's, it's
• 5:03
  pretty horrific. Um, it's, it's actually how I imagine our listeners, the face they make when they're listening to our podcast.
• 5:09
  [laughs]
• 5:11
  I, I beg of you, never listen. I beg of you, Bill, never listen to these.
• 5:15
  [laughs] We're talking a lot about documentaries. At some point, we both have to watch, and then we have to discuss You Can See Anything because it seems to be all anybody's talking about these days. So I guess we need to get in with the culture vibe and, and, uh, watch this thing at some point and then talk about it.
• 5:32
  By the time this airs, maybe we'll have both seen it.
• 5:34
  That's true.
• 5:35
  Okay, Bill, what's the word this week?
• 5:37
  Uh, so the Anders Nerd Word of the Week is truculent. Let's go with truculent this week.
• 5:42
  Hmm, truculent. Yeah, that's an easy one. Like, uh, aggressive, like eager to fight.
• 5:47
  Yes.
• 5:47
  Yeah.
• 5:48
  Sums you up well.
• 5:49
  Uh, sums you up well.
• 5:51
  [laughs] Let's have this great conversation, uh, with Rob and Ben. Thanks, guys. So Ben, Rob, welcome to the Wild Idea Podcast. Uh, certainly excited to have you guys join us to talk about the film, talk about the process of making the film, and probably most importantly, why it was a film that needed to be made. But before the films, can you guys both share with us the way you found a connection to wild places? What's, what's the origin story of you two? How did you come to work together, but also how did you individually sort of find your passion for wild places? I'd love to hear that. Maybe Rob, we'll start with you.
• 6:29
  Yeah. You know, I was really lucky to grow up in the mountains, kind of outside of Butte, Montana, and just really, you know, learn to ski from my mom and learn to appreciate wild places from my father, you know, spend time hiking and in the woods and stuff like that. And so I was incredibly lucky. And then, you know, that kind of leads to a desire to, uh, preserve and share those wild places so that they're available for the next people. You know, I know how many gifts I have been given, um, from wild places and from the natural world, and I just want those gifts to exist for the next sets of people.
• 7:05
  How about you, Ben?
• 7:06
  Yeah, I mean, a similar story. I was lucky enough to be introduced to, um, mainly hiking and skiing from my parents and,
• 7:14
  you know, ultimately wanting to cherish these places for,
• 7:19
  um, myself and, and everyone else alike, but also really an interest to
• 7:25
  find why it's so important to
• 7:28
  maintain like an ec-ecological stability in these places. Like, not only is it for our recreation, but more importantly, they're serving the purpose of, of cycles that help perpetuate the planet itself.
• 7:41
  So there's a, there's a real urgency for us bringing the two of you on the pod. The, the lowercase urgency is the chance for folks to see the movie, Roadless, about your journey through the corridor of the proposed Ambler Road. And then there's the uppercase urgency that projects in this wild and primeval pace-- place are starting to come into focus. Can you tell our audience about the draw to tell this particular story and, and what is it about the place that maybe you think our audience most needs to understand?
• 8:12
  Yeah. You know, what I would say, uh, that your audience most needs to understand is just truly how wild this place is. It is the United States' largest intact section of wilderness. You know, there isn't a larger one left in the United States. No larger area without roads, without development, without trails. This is it, you know? So if we want to talk about saving wild parts of our country, like, this is the largest one. This is the one we can save. Um, and then as far as this project specifically got going, it was, it was kind of my idea. Um, when the current administration reapproved the road about a year ago, almost exactly, you know, it was plastered all over social media. And within that, I, I saw all these posts and things like that that just kind of used generic Arctic imagery. You know, they didn't show exactly what was at risk. And I thought, how can we get people to care
• 9:14
  if, you know, we can't show them really what's at risk?
• 9:19
  Okay, but nobody walks 211 miles through the Brooks Range by accident, right? Like, what made you decide that the way to tell this story was to walk the whole of the Ambler Road? Like, talk to us about your intentionality.
• 9:33
  Yeah. You know, with-within that, I guess, you know, that's exactly it, right? Like, if I-- how can I really show what's at risk from an airplane or show people what it's really like? You know, like, that's really what I mean. You know, most people never have a chance to visit this place, you know, and we are able-bodied enough and have enough time and have the right amount of skills, especially when it comes to camera work with Ben, to be able to go to this place and really capture it in a way that we can share it with somebody who doesn't have the opportunity to get out there themselves.
• 10:06
  And before you took that first step, before you even bought or borrowed any of the necessary gear, what did you think the film would be about, and how far into your trip did that idea hold before it totally changed, if it did at all? You know, how much of that idea was left on the cutting room floor? We, we were joking before Bill hit record, um, that this turned into a romantic comedy, you know. Say more.
• 10:31
  We'll leave it at a joke for that. Um, that's about all that was. But for me at least, coming into it, I, I looked at it as, you know, an opportunity, like Rob said, to document and give, like, real representation for what the place looks like, um, and not just this generic, you know, Arctic imagery. Um, but also, you know, our trip may be providing some kind of entertainment factor to the story. And, like, how do you get people to sit down for an hour in a theater
• 11:05
  and really absorb what the place is? It definitely helps, like, a little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down.
• 11:11
  So I don't want to call this entertainment necessarily, but, you know, the film shows injuries, exhaustion, hunger, and maybe worst of all, nonstop mosquitoes. What was the lowest point you experienced while you were filming this, and, and what kept you moving beyond that moment?
• 11:27
  At least for me, the, the lowest moment is coming pretty soon. It's probably around day five. Um, you know, we're out there, we're really struggling at this point. Ben is pretty sick. He kind of got a bad cold on day one. I picked up his cold on day two. We're like, we're pretty sick. Things are going, you know, not great. We're really struggling through. We're going at, you know, measuring our time in hours per mile. And then, you know, the third member of our party, Bill, is, you know, getting his body really beat up, but almost that we're so sick, I'm not noticing it. I'm worried about Ben, I'm worried about myself, and then all of a sudden, Bill's like, "Man, I, I don't know that I can keep going. Like, my hip flexor's done. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do." And for me, that was, like, the worst moment because it's this, like- You know, for me at least, I can, I can force through any of the
• 12:23
  physical struggles. But the, like, you know, this mental low point of what we're supposed to do next, how do we pivot, you know, how do we, you know, really still accomplish some of our goals after we've put, you know, eight months into this and it's not working out? That, that was the hardest point for me, more so than any of the, the physical. But what about you, Ben?
• 12:45
  I'd say it was a similar point, and when we had to transition to, um, you know, this new, new plan for the route and, um, really realigning our intentions. You know,
• 12:58
  we had this goal of doing the entirety of the route, um, and when that went by the wayside, we, we could really hone in on capturing the beauty of the place, which is our first and foremost goal. But it's still bittersweet letting that initial ambition go away. And, and I let-- Having it happen so soon, I would say, too, um, because it wasn't like we were maintaining the course of the route. It was like, all right, we're going to go back and come back in the next day, and now we have, you know, no option to complete the entirety of it. It wasn't like we're just, you know, going to shave off a little bit at the end. It was like, we got to go back in and hike all this still, knowing that we're not going to do it all.
• 13:44
  Yeah, I was going to ask you the sort of insider baseball question, and, and Ben, may-maybe for you, but you guys, if, if someone already answered this, so I'm thinking about how to, how to ask it a little bit differently. Is it fair what you just said was the way in which you told the story
• 14:00
  had to shift, and it was a product of
• 14:04
  the sheer magnitude and scale of the place and the impacts it was having on you guys, and it sort of forced you to have to think about telling the story in a different way? Like, literally, did the arc of the story change in that moment?
• 14:17
  Yeah, 100%, right? Like, to us, you know, the goal was to walk every foot of it. But then, you know, like when, like when you're saying that, you know, this is not going to be the reality. It's not what we want, but it's not going to be the reality. So what do we do, right? And, you know, what me and Ben decided to do was really to focus on the beauty, you know? It's, it's instead of us walking the exact foot of the road, it's the difference between that and, you know, venturing a quarter mile or a half mile or a mile up into the highlands away from the road route so that we can get a better shot that shows where the road's going to go. You know, that sort of change was really what we looked at, you know, as opposed to, like... I was really worried, and part of the reason I was down was because I thought the hook was that if we walked the whole thing, right? That's the hook. But I realized later that, you know, the failure is part of it, and it makes for a good story. And, you know, if you want to talk about entertainment value, you know, like, it, it makes for a, a better story now, even if it is, you know, a little heartbreaking in the moment.
• 15:25
  Failure is totally part of it when it comes to wilderness. I mean, I'm thinking about my own hikes through wilderness that I've had to abandon and, like, call Bill to pick me up at a different trailhead because I wasn't going to make it. I'm thinking about all the campaigns I've worked on that were focused on wilderness study areas and, you know, hoping that Congress would designate them as wilderness. I mean, I think you're really touching on something. Like, failure is actually a really big part of the wilderness narrative.
• 15:50
  Absolutely. And
• 15:52
  just to kind of build on what Rob was saying, our ability to kind of side quest from the actual road route for a couple days there when we had this, you know, we, we reconvened and went back in, and it was like, "Oh, we can climb up to this ridge line, or we can spend a lot of time along the outlet of Walker Lake or something." Like, it really gave us an opportunity to not just document the footprint of the road, but also the area that's impacted by it, um, which is, you know, a little bit of a beauty in that, in the failure of the original goal.
• 16:24
  Is it an overstatement that says the movie
• 16:28
  became the pure definition of that idea of it's not the destination, it's the journey itself?
• 16:32
  [laughs] Yeah, I think it's, it's like instead of it's not the destination, it'd be like maybe it's not the task, but it's the journey itself, right? Like, the end was never the point, but getting there was the point the whole time. But, you know, the way we got there was maybe what had changed, and, you know, just the realities of what it was going to look like, um, was a big part of it, too.
• 16:58
  Maybe the real prize was the friends we made along the way, Bill.
• 17:01
  Yeah, and the mosquitoes that went up our nose.
• 17:03
  [laughs]
• 17:05
  We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation.
• 17:10
  I'm Olivia from Reno, Nevada, and you're listening to The Wild Idea.
• 17:14
  Okay, a few years ago, I read a book called Society of the Spectacle by Guy Debord, and I apologize to our, the multitude of our French listeners who, you know, just heard me pronounce that. But in that book, Debord argues that modern life is increasingly lived through images, right? We experience the world as representation rather than direct experience, and, like, even our relationships with each other are, uh, mediated by those images. Um, he was one of the first filmmakers and philosophers to emphasize that humans run the risk of consuming images of things instead of living those things. So, um, your film asks people to save a place that most of them will only ever experience as images, and maybe only through, like, the images you created. And my question to you is, you know, does turning wilderness into an image help protect it? Um, do you worry that audiences watching you do the hard thing with mosquitoes flying up your nose for 90 minutes lets them off the hook from doing anything themselves? You know, how do you keep Roadless from becoming content that people feel good about watching and then do nothing about?
• 18:27
  You know, I think that what you said is, is honestly really powerful and really interesting, but I do think that this place is maybe beyond the normal of that, right? I think that what you're talking about is something that we should be really aware of, you know, but, you know, in a lot of ways,
• 18:46
  to be completely frank, it's, it's not only incredibly difficult and incredibly physical in a way that a lot of people can't do, it's also, to be honest, prohibitively expensive, you know, and so remote. And so, you know, what I would think is while maybe this film might not push people to go experience this wilderness, I would hope that it does show them the joy and the beauty of going and experiencing a wilderness that might be a little more accessible. You know, maybe for others, maybe there are some people who see it and want to come do what we did, and that's really awesome. But for the people who can't, that's totally okay too. You know, like, I think that something that is often, you know,
• 19:30
  I think the word I'd use is blown out or, you know, out of proportion maybe, is that an adventure like this has more value, like intrinsically, than for somebody going camping over the weekend in their local wilderness, even though they only go, you know, for two days and 20 miles. And like, you know, this, just because we went farther and had maybe more capabilities, does not make it any more important or special than anybody else's trip out to those places, you know?
• 20:01
  Yeah, I like that you're touching on the barrier to entry. Bill and I have talked about that a lot. Um, and I also like that you're touching on, I, I do think wilderness sort of defies, uh, being placed in any certain category, because I do think there's a lot of people that think, "I'll never visit that place, but I'm still glad it exists." Um, but nonetheless, I do want to ask a, a follow-up question, which is like, you know, what do you hope happens after the credits roll? You know, do you, do you hope that people who see Roadless take action, you know, that they do something besides feeling moved? You know, should they call their congressman? Should they be truculent with decision makers? And, you know, if not, what would you change to make that happen?
• 20:48
  Yeah, you know, I mean, personally, I do hope that they, um,
• 20:53
  that they would call their congressman, feel moved enough to want to make some sort of difference in the Ambler Road situation. And really, you know, calling your congressman, maybe some of the comment periods, one's ending today. I know this will go out in about a week. But, you know, those sorts of things of having their voice heard. But, you know, we really looked at this a lot like an investigative journalist. Like, we are not there to tell people how they should feel about this. You know, we really looked at it as like, "Hey, we're going to give you the information so that you're able to make a more informed decision." If somebody, you know, watches this film and comes away that they still want the Ambler Road built, like, that's okay. It's not something I agree with, but that's okay. You know, like, that's, you know, their opinion. We just want to give them the opportunity to make the best opinion. The more we were to shove any of this down their throat, the more people would dig their heels in as opposed to wanting to make a difference and look at it for themselves.
• 21:53
  Robert, you know, you recently joined us on The Wild Line, and you mentioned how you have spent the entirety of your adult life in, in wild places, and that the Brooks Range and this trip was like something that was even beyond the realm of what you had experienced before. I'm curious, how do you define wilderness now, and did that definition change after this journey?
• 22:13
  Yeah. You know, I think that
• 22:16
  I have heard people describe wilderness with a, you know, a humbling vastness, and I don't know that I, even in, in my experiences of wild places, had ever felt that like I did in the Brooks Range. It's hard to describe. Um, Ben has, has a quote that he's been saying a lot that I feel like really nails it, so I'd hand it over to him on, on specifically what it was like to look around and, and maybe the difference between this wilderness and wilderness areas like, you know, that are national wilderness in, in a general sense.
• 22:56
  Yeah, it's funny. I'll start by saying, Bill, the way you posed that question, I've-- I was saying that to myself when I was up there. Like, my concept of wilderness is completely redefined. Um, but I think what Rob was referring to is my entire life I've tried to, you know, pick a certain view
• 23:15
  anywhere and just look for something that was unobstructed by humans. And normally that scope has to get really small, and maybe I'm staring at the ground or something. Um, but up there it was, you know, 360 degrees all the time. I'm incredibly grateful to have experienced that, and I hope that we can maintain that opportunity and maintain that place.
• 23:40
  I ask that question because, you know, I've, I've had a range of, you know, sort of wilderness experiences and, and had that definition shift a little bit, but then also still, in a way, galvanized back to my original feeling about a place, right? It's a place where we, we challenge ourselves. It's a place in which we realize that there is a larger system at play than just the things that, that sort of feed our joy or our recreation interest. It's, it's, um... And, and that can happen in a, you know, 18,000-acre wilderness in East Tennessee or a 1.5 million-acre wilderness in, you know, the Bob Marshall Complex here in Montana, or in a place that's not even federally designated wilderness, like this corridor that we're talking about that is vast and of a scale. But it's just something that I, honestly, I probably spend way too much time thinking about is like, how do we-
• 24:31
  How do we sit with a place with an idea long enough that, um, that wilderness is, is a whole lot of things? Obviously, we could go with the clichés of it's in the eyes of the beholder, and there's a whole lot of truth to that, right? Like, somebody who doesn't spend a lot of time in a place could be lost in a thousand-acre wood and, and be having a wilderness experience, right? They could be intimidated and, and feel as daunted as you guys were on day five as the injuries and the, and the colds were catching up with you guys, you know, that sort of thing.
• 25:03
  Something about your last few answers has reminded me of a phrase, um, from Hamlet, where Hamlet says to the players, right? If you've seen the, if you've seen the, the play or even the movie, um, there's a group of players that do like a play within the play. Um, and Hamlet says to them at some point that he believes that the purpose of art is to hold,
• 25:30
  uh, a mirror up to nature. And, you know, it always struck me that he must have meant human nature. Um, but, but maybe he didn't. Maybe he meant nature nature. And I guess I'm curious, you know, how you guys feel. Like, when people watch your film, are they supposed to see the Brooks Range or themselves,
• 25:53
  or is that like a choice they don't have to make, right? Like, it, it-- maybe they could see both at the same time.
• 26:00
  Yeah. At least to me, I think one of the coolest things about documentary filmmaking is that there is still some of that, like, narrative in there, you know, of people get to kind of pick what they see, you know? And, and I think that is really true in this film. You know, when, when we talk to folks after, when they've watched it, you know, like, pe- different people have different takeaways, and they're, you know, like, there are maybe the main takeaways that we intended that are, you know, forefront, that we're trying to, you know, have people take away. But then there's also just plenty of other little things that, you know, like when I made the film or when we made the film, when we were out there shooting, when we're editing, weren't things that, you know, we were trying to bring to the forefront that people are grabbing and grasping and coming and talking to us about. And so I think that that is kind of maybe one of the interesting or special parts, uh, about it still. And, you know, maybe like you said, mirroring real nature, mirroring human nature, mirroring humans as society, like what, you know, those sorts of things.
• 27:02
  That's really thoughtful, Rob, and I like it. And as you're talking, it's even occurring to me that, like,
• 27:07
  the thing they're using to justify this road is, is copper, right? And so--
• 27:13
  a copper mine. And so the copper that would justify this road is just going to end up in devices like the ones people will use to watch this film on, right? So in a way, the mirror is even reflecting the viewer as part of the problem. And now I'm like, kind of like in my own head with this thing. So-
• 27:32
  Yeah.
• 27:33
  I don't know. I don't know if I expect you to answer that, but I think I've, I've given myself the sweats.
• 27:38
  Well, I do have somewhere that I would like to go with that, because that is one of the big comments we get, is this idea that like, you know, oh, because we don't want mining in this place, we must be anti-mining. And the reality is that, like, we understand that our modern world does not exist without mining. But the thing that I think I would want people to grasp is that it's not about whether we mine or not. It's about where we do it,
• 28:04
  how efficiently we do it, how our cleanups look after, you know, are we spending US public dollars to subsidize foreign mining companies, some things like that, you know, because I do understand that, you know, if it's not grown, it has to be mined in some way, you know? And, and that is a reality in which we live. But I think in this, you know, scenario specifically, we are talking about one, you know, one of the largest intact ecosystems left. And when we look at the planetary value, you know, not just the public value, but the planetary value that that provides us, it outweighs the copper that we could get other places, you know? I grew up in Butte, Montana. Like, there is still plenty of copper taken out of the Continental Pit every day. There is, you know, great copper in, you know, Kennecott down in Utah, and then I think most of our copper comes from,
• 29:03
  uh, Arizona. Like, there are other options. I'm not saying that we, you know, get rid of mining completely. We're talking about where we do it and how we do it.
• 29:12
  What a great answer. I love that. I mean, I'm a little concerned that Anders has opened a portal into a world that, that, uh,
• 29:20
  is the mirror being held up to nature or human nature? Is human nature separate from nature? It's sort of like debates we've had about the relevancy of relevance. Um, yeah, it's, uh, I'm, I'm worried about the-- we've accidentally opened a portal into, into a world I don't think I can, uh, wrap my head around. But I want to pivot to the practical real quick. You know, is, is-- I think, Rob, you put it, you guys sort of approached this from a, uh, investigative journalist sort of perspective. You just wanted to tell the story of the place and let people think about it. We're a podcast that lives with this idea of hoping people will take, uh, something that they see and understand more and turn it into action. Um, you know, as you mentioned, we just had a comment period on, on a, a mine, proposed mine in this corridor close. I think there will-- that was just the scoping part of that. There'll be future opportunities, other bites at the apple, if you will. But how can people see this film? Um, either one of you want to take this question, but I know, I know there's some tour dates immediately on the horizon. You know, this episode's going to come out on November 10th. There's a few dates coming up right away. How can people see the film? Where do they find out more about the film?
• 30:25
  Yeah. So there will be a, you know, a decent tour, especially right after this comes out in the Pacific Northwest. The 13th to the 23rd, I think we have a show, at least one show every day, you know, from Corvallis down south in Oregon, all the way up to Seattle area. So there's a ton of showings there. And then really, you know, we wanted this thing to come out. ... free and available for everybody so that they could make those decisions. So day after Thanksgiving,
• 30:56
  it comes out on, um,
• 30:59
  YouTube for free for everybody. It'll be, you know, no barrier to entry. People can, can see this film and, you know, really make their mind up.
• 31:09
  I'm curious what's next for you two. Like, what, uh, what's on the horizon? What's the, what's the next big project you want to take on, the next big adventure you want to take on? And, and how do people track the work that you guys are both doing?
• 31:21
  Uh, I'd start with it's too soon, Bill, but, um, [laughs] the best way to keep up, I'd say, for both of us is, is Instagram is where we're most active. And then, um, we each have websites. But yeah, uh, my Instagram is benscaden, and Rob's is...
• 31:38
  Robertjlester. So those are the easiest places. But like Ben said too, I think it's funny, that's probably our most common question is like, "What's next?" And it's like, man, you know, between, uh, the film editing and now the tour that we're both being part of, you know, like this, this adventure isn't even over yet, you know? Like, until then, that's when it starts to end, and you can start to think about the next thing. But yeah.
• 32:04
  Yeah, guys, I, I apologize for implying that somehow you have to move on to the next thing now while you're still in the middle of, of, of the-
• 32:11
  [laughs]
• 32:11
  ... of the project that you, that you were doing. And, and, and as I look at, at the list of tour dates, you guys obviously have a lot of work ahead of you, including what I think is some of the really hardest work is probably standing around at a lot of, you know, theater, uh, lobbies talking to people about how this happened and having to tell the stories over and over again. And we appreciate you doing that for us, for us here, guys. But, uh, I just think it's really important that people have a chance to, uh, to check out the film. I appreciate you guys are trying to find a way to make sure people can see this film for free. I know you've had the support of The Wilderness Society, uh, on this project, and, and an organization that's near and dear to my heart. But, uh, didn't mean to imply that you guys have some obligation to move on to the next big adventure. [laughs]
• 32:53
  No, not at all. But I mean, I think it is what people are excited about, right? Like, you hear this, and you're just like, "Oh, we're stoked for the next thing." And I think we're stoked for the next thing too. We just don't, haven't had quite the right motivation or the right, you know, time to even be able to start to put those brain cycles in. But, uh, I'm sure there will be something. I don't know. I just don't know what it is yet, you know?
• 33:14
  We're open to suggestions.
• 33:15
  [laughs]
• 33:17
  Well, Rob, Ben, it has been so great having you guys on the Wild Idea Podcast. Really excited for folks to get to see this film. Personally, really excited for people to think about how they could decide to use it as a fulcrum for them to take action when it comes to places like this. Rob, I, I really love the way you thoughtfully put it that, like, I, I've always said that just because I'm a guy who loves wilderness doesn't mean I'm a zero-cut guy. I recognize that we have things that come from timber, uh, you know, including the, the, the rafters over my head right now. I, we, we... But there are places to do it and places that, that I think, uh, as you so eloquently put it, have a greater value than turning it into a consumable resource. But thank you guys both for, for being on the Wild Idea Podcast. This has been really great to have you here.
• 34:02
  It was an absolutely wonderful conversation. Thank you for having us.
• 34:06
  Yeah. Thanks for all that you guys do.
• 34:07
  Coming up on the Wild Idea Podcast, we get focused on how our food systems and land stewardship should force us to think about our choices when mealtime rolls around. When we chat with the folks behind Wild Idea Buffalo and an old friend and award-winning chef, Mike Costello from Lost Creek Farms. We'll also be rolling into that reflective time of year, and we'll visit with Aaron Sprague from Protect Our Winters, and we'll have a Christmas break homework assignment for all of our audience. We love bringing you these conversations. We hope you take a little something from all of them. If you want to support our continued effort, you can buy me a coffee at thewildidea.com, where you can also subscribe to our newsletters. If you are new here, we hope you take a moment to give us a review on your podcast player of choice and maybe hit the subscribe button. We hope to see each and every one of you on down the trail.
• 34:53
  The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Springhill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.