Latest / SEA of Startups / 🎙️ EP 6: The Invisible Unicorns: Why Southeast Asia's Biggest Startup Stories Are Happening Behind Your Phone Screen

Transcript

🎙️ EP 6: The Invisible Unicorns: Why Southeast Asia's Biggest Startup Stories Are Happening Behind Your Phone Screen · SEA of Startups

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, Kimio here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: And okay, real talk.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're all a bit obsessed with the shiny stuff, right?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Don't think it's just me.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's just human nature.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: The unicorn valuations,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: the super app drama,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: who is raising hundreds of millions in the past couple of weeks.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a big hoo-ha.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: But here's the thing that's been keeping me up at night.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Trust me, in this job, that's saying something.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the apps that everyone's downloading.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's the invisible stuff.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: the plumbing, the rails that everything actually runs on.
• 0:46
  Today,
• 0:46
  in this episode,
• 0:48
  we are going to go all in full infrastructure nerd.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean that in the best possible way.
• 0:56
  We've got Erlo hitting unicorn status,
• 0:59
  but for the reasons not for the reasons you think.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Auto finance making AI wealth management sound less scary and more...
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, pretty useful.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I went for the demo a couple weeks ago,
• 1:15
  and it's really interesting to see how AI is going to help
• 1:18
  transform this wealth of
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: its service.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: lovable,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: everyone's talking about it,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: letting people vibe code their way to apps,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: which honestly sounds like something I'd try after a few copies.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's, I mean, no pun intended, but the app itself is pretty lovable.
• 1:39
  So Kevin and I are connecting the dots you probably didn't even
• 1:42
  know existed.
• 1:44
  From eSIMs to enterprise wealth stacks to whether we are all
• 1:49
  just having a
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: collective AI moment that may or may not last.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just to throw in a reference from Michelle Gil's movie,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: the speed of how the world is changing is so fast and it's like,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: everything and everywhere all at once.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Fair warning though,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: this one gets a little bit more technical,
• 2:09
  but a lot more strategic and definitely makes you question what
• 2:14
  you think you know
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: about Southeast Asia's tech scene.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So grab your favorite drink and let's dive in.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: All right, welcome back.
• 2:28
  So now what if I told you that the next big story in Southeast
• 2:31
  Asia is not really
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: another super app on your phone,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: but it's the invisible infrastructure behind the scenes.
• 2:39
  From e-same unicorns and AI wealth platforms to mega center
• 2:43
  investments rising
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: across the region,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: this episode connects the dots.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're doing it in a big way.
• 2:49
  We are unpacking how Southeast Asia's shift from apps to
• 2:52
  infrastructure is quietly
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: becoming its biggest itch.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is Sea of Startups, and I am Kevin.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kim Yo.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive into why infrastructure,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: the three big things,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: digital,
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: financial,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: physical,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: is Southeast Asia's new superpower.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's kick thing off here with Eralo.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully I'm actually pronouncing the company's name correctly.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like I am.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Eralo.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So they're based in Singapore.
• 3:23
  It just got a huge funding round that makes it the first eSIM
• 3:29
  unicorn crossing the
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: one bill valuation marker.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 3:34
  And apart from Signum Bank,
• 3:35
  this is good news for Asia coming,
• 3:38
  having its own unicorn as well.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, just a bit of background information and how it came to.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: So Aaron Lowe started by solving a basic travel pain.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: All of us have this when we travel.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Roaming just sucks.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, evolution is the real story.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they didn't stop at the consumer app.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And behind the scenes, they built an API and a white label platform.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: So airlines, super apps, and telcos can plug in.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a pretty smart way to do it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I've tried it before.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think back in 2023, and that itself, I was pretty impressed by it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's no need of,
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: pushing the phone out,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: taking a SIM out,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: putting it all back in.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's just such a hassle.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: But back to you, Kevin.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: The pain point is real for anybody that travels a lot.
• 4:25
  But the interesting thing about them is that it's not just a
• 4:30
  play around the e-sim itself.
• 4:33
  They're actually building out a lot that are managing it behind
• 4:37
  the scenes.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you think of like airlines,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: so you're not just talking about the planes in the air,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: you're actually getting the airport and the air traffic controller,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: the infrastructure,
• 4:48
  the stuff that's actually putting the rails on how do you
• 4:51
  actually manage all of
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: this so that you can create that scalability.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Their story kind of flips the script.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of competing with telcos and they become the backbone.
• 5:04
  And the way I see it is like they're also building their
• 5:08
  company vertically from end to end.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no middleman that can intercept it.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think it could be a playbook, you know, founders can learn from.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's all up in the air now.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: No pun intended.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: I just like puns.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean...
• 5:25
  When you think of eSIM,
• 5:26
  you're really just thinking of your ability to make phone
• 5:29
  calls.
• 5:30
  No longer do I have to stop and buy a new physical card,
• 5:33
  swap it out in my phone.
• 5:35
  But the interesting thing about them is how they're actually
• 5:39
  making this all happen.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because they don't actually have any of the physical infrastructure.
• 5:47
  They're partnering out there with those mobile network
• 5:50
  operators that are worldwide.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's the key thing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're basically getting a...
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Getting a large set of partners.
• 6:01
  From my understanding,
• 6:02
  they're also doing a whole bunch of like wholesale roaming
• 6:05
  agreements.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially like pre-purchasing.
• 6:07
  Similar to the way that like online travel agencies sometimes
• 6:11
  pre-purchase hotels.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So then they can offer better rates.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: They purchase in bulk.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: essentially like partitions, repackage those.
• 6:22
  All of that requires a lot of infrastructure process in order
• 6:26
  to break that down.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you have a bunch of these other aspects of it,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: because when you're doing that,
• 6:31
  you also need to be able to figure out how you're creating
• 6:35
  these different
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: roaming topologies around it?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do you break out?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you create these packets of all of this?
• 6:45
  And so there's a lot of complex systems and provisioning around
• 6:55
  the management
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: system that goes into it.
• 6:59
  And so there's quite a lot more complexity than seems like it
• 7:01
  sits on the surface.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's quite interesting how they built it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And from my understanding now,
• 7:13
  they're actually taking a lot of that infrastructure that
• 7:16
  enabled them to sell the
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: eSIM.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And now they're actually white labeling and selling that off.
• 7:22
  So now they're an enabler of some of the other eSIM players in
• 7:25
  the market.
• 7:26
  So you go from the product side of things to building the kind
• 7:29
  of the picks and
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: shovels,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: the infrastructure that enabled you to operate in the first place.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's true.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of nitty-gritty to a certain extent.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of little intricacies that they have to connect to.
• 7:46
  I think another good analogy would be,
• 7:48
  it could potentially be the Airbnb of telecoms.
• 7:52
  Because you know how Airbnb works,
• 7:54
  they kind of operate on something that's ready.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then from there, they make the best out of it by email.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: leveraging with ready networks than starting from scratch again.
• 8:05
  And what they're doing now,
• 8:06
  they're bundling an eSIM,
• 8:08
  like for airlines,
• 8:09
  right?
• 8:09
  Think airlines bundling with an eSIM with a ticket or a super
• 8:12
  app letting you buy
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: connectivity in-app.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it provides that underhood tech and it's looking at wholesale now.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it isn't just a consumer sim seller.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's becoming connectivity rails for travel.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's going to go beyond that, just travel.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that it's doing so much now, I'm just...
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know how it's going to look like.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And for Southeast Asia, I think this is significant.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: They are pioneering a global connectivity solution out of Singapore.
• 8:41
  It's positioning itself as the region as more than just a
• 8:46
  market for travel apps.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know, it's now a provider of core mobile infrastructure.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's so funny because like how Jakarta is now pioneering the data center,
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: now Singapore,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Singapore again,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: they are pioneering this core mobile infrastructure.
• 9:02
  So I think the regional base likely helps it bridge telco
• 9:06
  partnerships across Asia
• 9:07
  and its growing role in this part of the world for connectivity
• 9:11
  infrastructure.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully it encourages founders to ask,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: can we tackle a local problem like pricey roaming?
• 9:18
  in a way that scales worldwide by becoming the infrastructure
• 9:22
  others rely on.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a shift of perspective in a way.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 9:25
  I think one of the things that I find interesting simply from
• 9:28
  the way that the
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: company evolved is
• 9:31
  the path the pathway from simply trying to solve a pain point
• 9:35
  that that originated
• 9:36
  from travel i don't know the founders but i'm going to assume
• 9:40
  because when you're
• 9:41
  in southeast asia it's a very fragmented market so travel is
• 9:44
  inevitable uh you're
• 9:45
  going on holiday you're hopping from this country to another
• 9:48
  it's it's just kind of
• 9:49
  like the nature of being out here in southeast asia is that
• 9:52
  travel is is is fairly
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: common um
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's painful to have to stop off, get a new SIM card.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: for the people that travel often,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: you sometimes would see people getting off the plane,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: pulling out a little baggie,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: trying to figure out which one is my Indonesia SIM card.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes not so organized.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: In all honesty, on some of the infrastructure aspect of it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I find it interesting kind of the evolution from...
• 10:22
  the original problem to now actually getting kind of the rails
• 10:27
  that enables the
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: business to operate,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: essentially kind of backward integration.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I do wonder at what point does that entire industry,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: even if you scratch out the international travel side of things,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: At what point are just your local domestic mobile telecom operators,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: what are they going to do away with the physical SIM cards anyways?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: That just seems like an unnecessary cost.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: When will the entire industry move there?
• 10:56
  All of the cell phones need to catch up because some of the
• 10:58
  older models still
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: don't allow you to have eSIMs.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, you buy a new phone, you replace whatever one you have.
• 11:08
  Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to switch over our SIM
• 11:12
  card from whoever our
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: mobile provider is?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully, maybe that's a new market space for them to go into.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not an expert in telco or the infrastructure,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: but it would be interesting to see whether or not there's market space or
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: opportunity to just
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of the entire physical SIM card segment entirely.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: But nonetheless,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think the second thing that I find interesting on this is like,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: if you asked a random person on the street about eSIM,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's not an industry that anybody would think would be sexy per se.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But here you are,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: big,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: big company,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: big valuation,
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: big funding round,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: clearly enough room for them to grow.
• 11:55
  So it just kind of goes to show that if you move backwards and
• 11:58
  get more into the
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: infrastructure layer of what enables a business,
• 12:03
  you can open up a lot more green space in how you monetize as
• 12:07
  opposed to just being
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: on the downstream side.
• 12:10
  But I think to your point about eSIMs,
• 12:14
  some telcos here are already doing that.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I was switching over phones from iPhone and from DG especially,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: they do have that option now.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: So whenever I come back, it's like, it's pretty easy.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's just within the phone, I switch over.
• 12:27
  I think it's more like how the current telcos will transition
• 12:33
  into that and how
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: long will it take for them to do that?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because, I mean, there's already a ready solution, like Errol.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: so I'm on the same line of thinking as you,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: but I think it wouldn't be that big of a transition,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I would presume,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: because these telcos that already have the existing infrastructures,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: how fast they can move is my question.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the cell phones themselves.
• 12:53
  So you probably have like a replacement cycle so that the
• 12:57
  phones can actually manage it.
• 13:00
  Let's talk about another case where it also is involving them
• 13:04
  getting into,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: let's call it the digital infrastructure,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: the method of how things function and flow and enable it.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have another company that with Arts of Finance,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: which is growing their Singapore presence,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: not Singapore,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: they're not started in Singapore,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: but nonetheless,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're growing out there.
• 13:22
  Yeah,
• 13:23
  the finance,
• 13:24
  it's born in Silicon Valley and it's a very strategic move.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: They really recently launched in Singapore.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think how it all started,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: because I was,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: funnily enough,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: I just like how all the dots are connected.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was there for the demo last week for an alumni event.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we had a chance to have a deep dive of how it works.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that stood out for me was how it came to it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was founded by ex-Googlers from Silicon Valley.
• 13:52
  They kind of call themselves the geriatric founders because
• 13:55
  most of them are older
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: than 40 or 50.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that's quite funny.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And they kind of all were from, actually,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: The entire company, maybe, was founded based off Google.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that one was,
• 14:08
  that kind of hit me because it kind of tells you that it's
• 14:11
  never too late to build
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: something that you want to call it own.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway,
• 14:14
  so Arda is an AI-driven platform aiming to democratize
• 14:19
  investing options the
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: ultra-rich have.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So they're making it easier to access.
• 14:24
  So interestingly,
• 14:26
  Arda chose Singapore as an international launchpad for
• 14:29
  expansion.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: setting out its regional HQ,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: then appointing Amanda Ong as Singapore CEO,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: formerly country director,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: to lead the charge.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And she was from Stash Away as well.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: So pretty much she has experience within this space, but more mass.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And now she's going into something slightly more niche.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's easy to see why, because Singapore is a global wealth hub.
• 14:53
  It's expected to host 4.8 trillion assets from 1.6 million
• 14:57
  foreign investors by 2028.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're building the infrastructure for wealth as a service,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: you go where the money is and variable regulations are,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: which we've already addressed in 2021.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: pretty extensively in the last couple of episodes.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think to deep dive a bit further, what is Arda offering exactly?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to US platform for accredited investors,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: Arda launched a B2B wealth as a service platform,
• 15:22
  essentially a plug and play digital wealth management stack for
• 15:26
  banks and financial
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: institutions.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: So similar to Aralo, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: So they also do API and white label it too.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: A few banks in Singapore have come on to their B2B clientele
• 15:37
  to say hey we really like what your system does and we would
• 15:40
  really want it to be
• 15:41
  included in our financial analysis and it's scary and also it's
• 15:47
  um interesting to
• 15:48
  see how far ai can be used the usability of it rather so they
• 15:52
  use lm to churn out
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: reports but it's backed by hard financial data so
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: So rest assured, your investments advice is backed by hard data.
• 16:02
  That's good to know,
• 16:03
  but it's just how they churn out the reports,
• 16:05
  in what language.
• 16:07
  So one of the features is that they're able to have different
• 16:10
  ways of crafting the
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: analysis reports.
• 16:13
  It's so interesting because they cater to the different
• 16:16
  segments and from there,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: the language models address it.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, I'm a millennial and I have a way of talking.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: dude, you know, this investment is this much and this much.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or Gen Z is like, this investment is no cap.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: They use languages that cater to each segment.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Or for example, copy your uncle.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, hey, you know, this investment, you should look into it.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, you use localized language.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more relatable to people and the reach can be quite...
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting to see,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: to give more context,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: is that a partner bank can take Arda's AI-powered investing tools,
• 16:52
  even Arda AI's co-pilot chatbot that acts like a virtual wealth
• 16:56
  advisor and
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: integrate them into their own services.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like we said, white-label it as an in-house solution.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a cloud-based platform.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: It was incubated with the support of Singapore's EDV,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Economic Development Board,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: showing how important finance infrastructure is to the country.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:18
  early partnerships include VeoBank and Abu Dhabi to power its
• 17:23
  new wealth offering,
• 17:24
  plus collaborations with Google Cloud and tech consultancies to
• 17:27
  plug other into
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: banks' legacy systems.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it isn't just another robo-advisor app.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's building the,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: short of saying,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: AWS of wealth management,
• 17:38
  allowing any bank to offer AI-driven investments with minimal
• 17:42
  development of their
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: own.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: So interesting times.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is interesting.
• 17:48
  I wasn't too familiar with them to be honest with you until you
• 17:52
  brought them up.
• 17:54
  But it seems like another case where we have a company that was
• 17:58
  going to the end customer.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: In this case,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: providing some of these wealth management,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: getting the access to some of the private assets,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: which is kind of one of their list of
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Items as well.
• 18:13
  The AI-powered guidance to get the investment strategies that
• 18:17
  would link to the individuals.
• 18:19
  Kind of what you would expect out of fintech looking at private
• 18:23
  wealth management.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those sort of like access strategies tailored to you.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: But the interesting thing looking into this company now is...
• 18:34
  Now it seems like there's similar to what we were just talking
• 18:37
  about with Erello,
• 18:39
  taking the tools and the things that you built in order for you
• 18:44
  to be able to
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: manage servicing and customers,
• 18:47
  packaging that up and becoming a product in and of itself to
• 18:51
  where you can now
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: white label.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: giving API access,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: enabling other financial institutions,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: the banks,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: the advisors,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: essentially putting that out there,
• 19:04
  kind of that wealth as a service sort of offering into the B2B
• 19:09
  market just shows
• 19:10
  another sort of playbook and another iteration of the same
• 19:14
  playbook of we built so
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: much capability.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can we actually turn that into a product going into others?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: if you think about it from a founder perspective,
• 19:24
  if you're building a company and you're selling it down to your
• 19:28
  customers,
• 19:28
  most people intuitively would be so protective of the backend
• 19:33
  infrastructure that
• 19:34
  enabled them to service those customers that they would think
• 19:38
  by selling it,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: you're cannibalizing your sales.
• 19:41
  I would love to get inside of the head of somebody that ended
• 19:45
  up making this leap
• 19:46
  and just having the conversation of what was that strategy
• 19:49
  conversation around the
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: founder table that made you say,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: we're not going to cannibalize our sales.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to open new markets by taking this strategy.
• 19:59
  We'll sell the people that are not selling to customers that
• 20:02
  are too difficult or
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: too far reached.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe they're looking at it and saying,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 20:09
  financial management is still going to be a personal basis for
• 20:12
  a lot of people.
• 20:13
  Why don't we sell the tooling to the people that have the
• 20:15
  personal relationship in
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: the first place instead of trying to disintermediate it?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to get inside of that.
• 20:22
  We should try and get a million on one of these days and get
• 20:26
  some of the inside
• 20:27
  juice on how that thought process and transition and how
• 20:31
  they're looking at
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: how they're looking at the private wealth space,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe even get it into the segmentation in regards to,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: you obviously have your ultra high net worth that,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: all the big banks clamor and roll out the white glove service for.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: But then what about everybody else?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of other people that have meaningful assets.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not in the billions or hundreds of millions,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: but there's a number of people that fall into the seven-figure,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: eight-figure,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: or are building towards that.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no doubt.
• 21:07
  I mean,
• 21:07
  definitely going to be interesting to have her on at some point
• 21:10
  down the road.
• 21:10
  I think it'd be very curious to know more of that conversation,
• 21:14
  how that would pan out.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Go deeper into the company itself.
• 21:18
  If you really think about it,
• 21:19
  the past two companies,
• 21:20
  we've been looking at white labeling.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if you really draw a parallel to the grocery business,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: why I'm saying that is because like Tesco,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: they did white labeling too,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that turned out pretty well.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you flip the table,
• 21:36
  these companies are doing white labeling and it's from a point
• 21:38
  of digital,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: the infrastructure,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: the backend has to be fairly strong in order to put things through.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to take a wait-and-see approach,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: but I think to add a bit more about this company,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: maybe I'm a bit geeking out about it.
• 21:58
  It could also be compounded because it's backed by the tech
• 22:07
  stars within this
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: industry,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Googlers and whatnot.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's going to be a lot of credibility givens.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's why it's taken off pretty fast.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you were to compare with a smaller company,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: maybe not as fast because honestly,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: the company started back as underlying this infrastructure play.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Ralph Hammers,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: the former CEO of UBS and ING,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: joined as a senior advisor and investor,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: bringing deep expertise in transforming legacy banking digitally.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And tech names like ex-Google CEO, Eric Schmidt.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fusion of finance and tech leaders betting on a new model.
• 22:42
  And by planting its flag in Southeast Asia,
• 22:45
  it's bolstering Singapore's reputation.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Again, Singapore gets the pie as a fintech and AI innovation hub.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a two-way street, right?
• 22:53
  ARA gains a base in its region with affluent investors and
• 22:57
  progressive regulators.
• 22:59
  And Singapore cements its status as a place where AI meets
• 23:03
  finance at scale.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: There we go.
• 23:05
  I mean,
• 23:06
  if you're going to be a large size company,
• 23:08
  like it's just the natural fit.
• 23:12
  I think that there's space across the rest of the region when
• 23:16
  you're getting started.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, it's the place that you graduate up to.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if you're talking about finance,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's the capital market hub for the region.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's why all the family offices are there.
• 23:36
  That's why all the finance industry basically gravitates
• 23:40
  towards Singapore.
• 23:42
  And it makes sense that players that are looking at that space
• 23:46
  would go there as well.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it all checks out.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: But again,
• 23:50
  I love this sort of like building the rails on which it
• 23:53
  operates and then figuring
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: out why don't we turn that into the product and start white labeling it,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: start selling it off and getting more into that angle.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: Before we go into the next interesting company.
• 24:08
  So if traditional private banks are like the bespoke tailors
• 24:11
  for the rich...
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Arda has built the sewing machine and the digital fabric,
• 24:17
  and it's renting it out so that every bank can mass produce
• 24:21
  high-end financial
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: suits for their clients.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Some food for thought?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, let's move on to the next one.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: From Sweden comes a Lovable, finally, the Lovable app.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's been raving about it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's an AI native startup that coined Vibe Coding.
• 24:45
  So what it essentially means is that you just need to describe
• 24:48
  your app in plain
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: English and the AI builds it for you.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Kevin,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: you can take this one because you were saying that over the weekend,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: you were trying to wipe code as well.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: So what's that experience like for you?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've fallen down the rabbit hole, to be honest with you.
• 25:02
  I have so many different subscriptions to so many of these
• 25:05
  different vibe coding apps.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's fun, but I run into barriers.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be straightforward and honest about that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: But my thing on it is two things.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: One,
• 25:19
  it is really incredible how it is democratizing the access for
• 25:26
  non-technical people
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: to be able to spin up something simple.
• 25:30
  To be able to natively,
• 25:33
  just in plain English,
• 25:35
  talk to it,
• 25:36
  get something put together.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Presently,
• 25:38
  I don't think that you can get past really just prototyping
• 25:42
  unless you actually
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: have some technical knowledge.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you an example.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't with Lovable, but it was with one of the competitors.
• 25:51
  I'll omit names because I'm going to critique them and I don't
• 25:54
  want to get any
• 25:57
  emails that's giving me any cease and desist or take that down
• 26:00
  sort of stuff.
• 26:03
  But so I was building with it and I was trying to build
• 26:06
  something that in my mind
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: is moderately complex because it requires some backend infrastructure,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: a SQL database.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it took me 15 tries to explain to it what I wanted.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in many of those tries,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually writing the script and telling it very,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: very specifically what to do.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And more often than not, it would still guess at things.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: It would still do this, that, and the other.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say that no one would hire me for my coding abilities,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: but I do know how,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: that I am relatively competent relative to the general population.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's still some limitations into it.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: But imagine if like, this is still new.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is still like, this just burst onto the scene.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's still a little bit glitchy today,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to be a little bit like accommodative.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: We need to understand that we can prototype really fast.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: We can do all of this.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're doing a simple web app,
• 27:15
  want to use it to replace your website or like figure out how
• 27:19
  can I link up with my
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Shopify or whatever you want to do.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Simple things.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:25
  I don't think that you're there in order to build anything
• 27:28
  that's enterprise grade
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: or even could get adopted within the B2B space so far yet,
• 27:36
  unless you actually have pretty good technical chops and keep
• 27:41
  the guardrails.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a post relatively recently on this topic,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: and I said that it's like having your worst employee.
• 27:52
  yeah i remember that one because you have to explain very
• 27:56
  specifically what you
• 27:57
  want yeah otherwise it's gonna guess and it most likely will
• 28:01
  guess wrong it may
• 28:03
  guess right but a lot of times the more complex it is it seems
• 28:07
  like a guess and
• 28:08
  maybe that's just my instance and that it was like going off
• 28:11
  and i had to repeat
• 28:12
  many times so i've i've gone many many many many many many many
• 28:15
  hours now of doing
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of this
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had to repeat on a number of occasions,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: do not do anything that I do not explicitly state.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And having to repeat that, the memory is terrible.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: It'll get there.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: It'll get there.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not there yet.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a teething process again, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: It takes a while for it to gain its footing.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's because I think...
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: The people who are literally,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: going all out on it,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's mainly most of them have the tech background.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's why they're able to use it to the best.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: But for us, I mean, or at least for me, I speak for myself.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: I tried using it yesterday, tried to...
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: There were so many more additional steps.
• 28:59
  It's not as simple as one would like to be just by the phrase,
• 29:03
  the term,
• 29:04
  white coding.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: And oh, everything is plain English.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: You can just use it as it is.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's not.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've got to download GitHub.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: all these terms I've heard in passing,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: but you've not actually used them like Superbase and all that.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's highly technical.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: It takes a while for non-techies to really break into it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: But what they're ultimately trying to do is democratize access.
• 29:26
  So hopefully they'll tweak the accessibility that's easier for
• 29:32
  non-techies than I
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: guess everyone can build an app now.
• 29:35
  And it's interesting because they're growing so fast that they
• 29:38
  hit $75 million in
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: ARR in just seven months.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's how fast things are moving right now.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like every day when I come on a laptop,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: I learn something new and I'm not able to sleep the next day.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be on another rabbit hole the next day.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're what?
• 29:54
  It's like 20 bucks a month or something like that,
• 29:56
  if I remember correctly.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's extrapolate that.
• 29:58
  Since it's 75 million ARR,
• 29:59
  20 bucks a month,
• 30:00
  let's call it,
• 30:01
  what,
• 30:01
  240 bucks per year.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: For ease of numbers, let's call it 300,000 individual customers.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: But my wonder on this,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: because a lot of this is like we're calling it ARR,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: but there was some tech pundit,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe it was a VC or I can't remember who,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: that made the pun and was like,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's not ARR,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: it's try RRR.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have a lot of people that are just trying these out.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so you take the example of what I just said.
• 30:37
  Yeah,
• 30:37
  I have subscriptions to basically every vibe coding platform
• 30:40
  right now.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying them all out.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm playing against them.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like part of it is because my job, I need to know what's out there.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of that is maybe unique to me.
• 30:49
  But I do wonder how many other people are out there that are
• 30:53
  playing around with multiple tools.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And at what point do they just start picking winners?
• 30:59
  there's a number of other ones that you have other players that
• 31:01
  that are at 50
• 31:02
  million in revenue 100 million in revenue you and all of them
• 31:06
  basically found this
• 31:07
  like accelerant over just the last six to 12 months and it's
• 31:12
  crazy growth but the
• 31:13
  question is how long is it going to stick so i i'm i'm not i'm
• 31:17
  not deep into this
• 31:18
  but if i if i was one of these people that just gave them this
• 31:20
  giant funding round
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: we would have spent a lot of time talking about the stickiness and
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: and what that long-term path.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that there's a still,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: with 300,000,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: when we did that back of the envelope math on 300,000,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: that's probably a pretty small number relative to what the potential is.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you get a large drop-off in that,
• 31:44
  If the market size is so big and the ability to accelerate how
• 31:49
  good the quality is,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: is still in the early days.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we still have a lot of room to go.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that suffices,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I,
• 31:58
  there's a lot of capital flooding into these and ultimately
• 32:01
  like how many players
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: will there be?
• 32:03
  Is it,
• 32:03
  is it going to be like a,
• 32:05
  like a winner take all or a winner take most?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if so,
• 32:10
  Who's going to lose a few hundred million in investment capital
• 32:14
  by not being the
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: chosen winner of the market?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can't deny it.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, how do you put it?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's a lot of vibe, for lack of a better word.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Vibe coding, vibe investing.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you put it in relationship terms.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a vibe.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: It could be...
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Put it simply, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Really, infatuation at this point.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's why things are moving so fast.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And can it sustain the long term?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Longer relationship?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not skeptical, but curious.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of potential.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a lot of things happening at the same time.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Michelle Yu's movie, Everything Everywhere, all at once.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: I recently used GenSpark AI as well.
• 33:06
  And I was comparing to your point about everyone's using
• 33:09
  everything,
• 33:09
  right?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's so hard to pick the real winner.
• 33:12
  And on top of that,
• 33:13
  the price points for all these tools are pretty much the same.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because yes, the price point shouldn't be a problem.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same standard now.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: But how does one stand out?
• 33:23
  Because you have ChatGPD that's so good and it's quite an
• 33:26
  all-rounder to their credit.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's Claude, which is great at script writing or language.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Claude's fantastic.
• 33:35
  A lot of the true born developers that I know are heavy in the
• 33:39
  Claude code.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: When I do research before these podcasts, as well, when I meet a startup,
• 33:50
  like i'm leveraging ai in order to do a lot of the research for
• 33:54
  me because like in
• 33:55
  the old days i would pay somebody that was a job that we like
• 34:00
  when i started that
• 34:01
  was my job i was doing research on companies and i'd have to
• 34:05
  come up with like the
• 34:06
  info packets and so that like we're prepped and ready to go
• 34:09
  into that now i just
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: prompt yeah and i and i get this get the same thing so like
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: My entry level job has been wiped out.
• 34:18
  And now when we talk about some of the entry pathways into
• 34:22
  building a website,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: doing this,
• 34:25
  you can remember as the internet evolved and we started moving
• 34:29
  into e-commerce and
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: we started doing all of this,
• 34:31
  a lot of companies popped up in order to help you launch your
• 34:34
  first website and
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: help you do your first this,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: help you do your first that.
• 34:38
  Now we're starting to get into with vibe coding of now you can
• 34:42
  actually launch your first app.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can actually do your first this, that and the other.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to evolve past there in order to get more sophisticated.
• 34:51
  But we also have other tools to where you can actually start
• 34:54
  now creating your own
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: agents to manage some of your own workflows.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: When I talk about like me,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: me kind of geeking out and going down the rabbit hole,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing a lot of that now of like when I'm when I'm
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to create some agents to try and figure out,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: now I've replaced some of the functional jobs of my industry already.
• 35:15
  How many more of them can I just turn agentic and start
• 35:20
  replacing it as well?
• 35:22
  Instead of the one-person unicorn,
• 35:24
  can we have the one-person VC that's Truby Scalable?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And everything is turning, not silo per se, but...
• 35:34
  One person can be equipped with so many skills that weren't
• 35:37
  available back in the day.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like personal branding.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 35:42
  why I'm drawing this parallel is because like celebrities like
• 35:44
  when we were
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: younger,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: or at least for me,
• 35:46
  I was watching Hollywood and the only thing was personal
• 35:49
  branding was true media.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's like on Instagram.
• 35:53
  i mean 18 year olds are doing branding and you know everyone
• 35:57
  who has a linkedin
• 35:58
  profile can do their own branding now and with the you know
• 36:01
  advent of um chat gpd
• 36:03
  and all that you can combine everything and one person can be a
• 36:06
  superpower house on
• 36:07
  its own and it's it's it's amazing that everyone can be their
• 36:11
  own entrepreneur what
• 36:12
  i'm saying is from a professional sense whereby you can do
• 36:15
  almost everything at the
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: tip of your yeah
• 36:17
  at your fingertips and it's it's quite mind-blowing about how
• 36:20
  fast things are going
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: and that's super super exciting though like when you when you think of
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurship and you think of innovation it comes from differentiated
• 36:31
  perspectives it comes from somebody that doesn't think the same
• 36:34
  as everyone else
• 36:36
  And if we can put the tools in place to where every individual
• 36:40
  has that capability
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: of creating something,
• 36:43
  we have now opened the floodgates potentially to being able to
• 36:47
  see a whole lot of
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: cool stuff.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always said that,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: we'll have a transition period where,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: it's inevitable,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: some of the jobs of the past no longer need it.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And as I already talked about with kind of the research and all of that,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: But we could potentially enable so much more cool stuff.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Humans are incredibly creative at figuring out more work to do.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I am fairly hopeful.
• 37:14
  Like I do have my doom and gloom scenario of where this could
• 37:18
  end up leading in
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: regards to like...
• 37:20
  education,
• 37:21
  future of work,
• 37:23
  you know,
• 37:23
  like are we going to have social disruption?
• 37:25
  But the flip side of that is that I'm super excited that we
• 37:29
  have the potential,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: whether we realize it,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: to put the tools in everyone's hand to create
• 37:36
  cool stuff that could be really innovative,
• 37:40
  that is servicing niche needs.
• 37:42
  It's deflationary because we're creating that capability,
• 37:46
  putting it into people's hands.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really incredible.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Case in point, beyond LinkedIn, there's Instagram as well.
• 37:54
  I mean,
• 37:55
  you're looking at 17,
• 37:56
  18 years old before college,
• 37:58
  making money,
• 37:59
  tons of money.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying pocket money, like thousands and hundreds.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the way they say it's like some seasoned entrepreneur,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: I managed,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: I hit six figures,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: seven figures,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm on my way to it.
• 38:09
  hit so many more figures they're into university not that
• 38:12
  university is the
• 38:12
  baseline but what i'm saying is at such a young age they have
• 38:15
  already reached this
• 38:16
  level of potential what more the future generations whereby
• 38:20
  they they already they
• 38:22
  are kind of like these tools are already available for them the
• 38:26
  moment they're born
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: so i'm curious to see how they would take that to the next level
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because somehow,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: as you were going along on what you were saying,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: it kind of gave me goosebumps as well,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: number one.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's scary in a way, but it was exciting.
• 38:40
  But then it brings me to that point of Mission Impossible was
• 38:44
  trying to make as
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: whereby AI pretty much controlled the world's fate.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it will ever get to that point.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm being overdramatic, but you'll just never know.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway...
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we have more people that are building.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Call me the old guy in the room,
• 39:01
  but I hope that we have more people that are like building
• 39:03
  software tools,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: as opposed to being Insta famous and,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: and supposed influencers.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest with you,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: like I question how many of the,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 39:13
  the quotes of money that they're making is actually legitimate
• 39:16
  or are they just
• 39:17
  kind of renting the plane that they're standing in front of for
• 39:20
  15 minutes so that
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: they can make it look like they're successful.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: But on the tooling side,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: on the software side,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of capability,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of lessons to be learned from there.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think from the conversation today,
• 39:35
  I think there's a couple of wrap-up points that would be
• 39:38
  interesting to mention.
• 39:41
  In the first two companies that we talked about on both Arelo
• 39:44
  and on Arta,
• 39:46
  I think the interesting thing there is getting into the
• 39:49
  back-end infrastructure and
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: that enabled you to build the business in the first place.
• 39:54
  And then making that leap into turning that into to productize
• 39:58
  that and creating
• 39:59
  really kind of a picks and shovels infrastructure layer
• 40:03
  business out of it.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: As I said,
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to get,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to see whether or not we can get one of them onto on and have a
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: conversation around being a fly in that room,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: would be interesting.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a good lesson to founders out there.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then lastly, on the vibe coding,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of enablement.
• 40:22
  We're not there yet on full production enterprise,
• 40:26
  but we're going to get there.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: But in the meantime, the pace to prototype is just so fast.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So some great takeaways out of this.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe the play is selective independence.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's, you know, bringing out your entrepreneurial side in you.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: You build what differentiates,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: rent what doesn't,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: but always keep your margins and optionality intact.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, case in point again, seed strapping.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: One of the early episodes of seed strapping.
• 41:00
  I'm just trying to connect all the dots so that people get a
• 41:02
  good sense of where we
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: are heading to and how it all still connects.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: And modular infrastructure is key.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Use global infra, but localize your mode.
• 41:12
  Store your data where you can control it and build hooks that
• 41:15
  make switching possible.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it's slightly painful, you know.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: We should do a future episode on some,
• 41:23
  some recent examples of companies that are building in perhaps
• 41:26
  the AI space or AI
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: enabled or AI disrupted and talk about some of the,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: the defensible modes.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Cause that's the, that's the flip side at this point.
• 41:38
  So maybe we can put that on the agenda,
• 41:40
  people listening in where we're,
• 41:41
  we're on it.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're thinking about it.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: But until then,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: build smart,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: stay strong,
• 41:48
  and look under the surface on what the infrastructure layers
• 41:51
  that are enabling
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: everything.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it can give you a whole lot of ideas on where to go.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, interesting conversation.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think getting them on, it's definitely in the pipeline.
• 42:01
  So you guys just got to stay tuned and just got to keep
• 42:05
  listening because you just never know.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: They might just pop up when you least expect it.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a wrap from today's episode.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: Though,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: honestly,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: I could go on talking about infrastructure plays for,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: another hour.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I think Kevin's probably relieved that I'm wrapping this up.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Look,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: if any of this got your brain spinning,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: whether you're rethinking your startup's backend,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: wondering if you should be white labeling something,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: or just trying to figure out if white coding is actually a thing...
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: We want to hear about it.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hit follow.
• 42:46
  Share this with that one founder friend who is always talking
• 42:49
  about building the
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: picks and shovels.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know who they are.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Send them our way.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: And seriously,
• 42:55
  if you're out there building infrastructure that the rest of us
• 42:59
  don't even know we
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: need yet...
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let us know.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Slide into our DMs.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: These are exactly the conversations that shape what comes next.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: And speaking of conversations,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: in the next episode,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Kevin sits down with Excel Binter,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: a guy who's been the CTO of Cisco.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: led global IT strategy at Standard Chartered,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: and built a 450-person startup within Central Group.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's based in Thailand, and we're talking enterprise buying decisions.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: What makes an elevator pitch actually work?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the brutal truth about selling to corporates in Southeast Asia.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you're trying to get enterprise to buy your product,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: This may be it for you.
• 43:49
  And heads up,
• 43:50
  these are all just personal views and they are not financial
• 43:54
  advice.
• 43:55
  I'm Kim Yo and this is the CEO of Startups and we'll catch you
• 43:59
  in the next one.