Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #26: What Happens When You Meet Your Kids Where They Are: One Mom’s Inspiring Journey Raising Neurodivergent Children and Powerful Lessons for All Parents

Transcript

#26: What Happens When You Meet Your Kids Where They Are: One Mom’s Inspiring Journey Raising Neurodivergent Children and Powerful Lessons for All Parents · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a parent of an adult child, worried and frustrated because they are struggling to become independent, responsible, and find purpose in their life, or you want to know what to do to prevent it, you're in the right place.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is launch.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Each adult child will deliver actionable steps and strategies that you can take to help your young adult become confident, motivated, and self-sufficient.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Parents, if you want your adult child to achieve a life of independence, thrive in this world, and reach their full potential, then listen in to launch.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think the biggest misconception about neurodivergent kids and young adults and adults is that it's something you grow out of.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I really want that to sit there for a minute.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: It isn't.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is a different brain.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn a lot of skills, you can develop a lot of strategies, but at the end of the day, it's a different way that your brain operates.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so for parents, you know, to have a lot of compassion that there will be peaks and valleys in a neurodivergent person's capacity, and that that is absolutely okay.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is launch.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: My guest today is Anita Allen.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: We were first introduced because of our shared interest in parents of young adults who are launching into adulthood.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Our first conversation was on Zoom.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And after an hour, we decided that because we live so close to each other, which we didn't know ahead of time, that we had to meet again in person and continue chatting over coffee.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Talking with Anita was incredibly eye-opening, and I know her story will really speak to you.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give too much away, but I'll tell you this.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Anita is neurotypical, but the rest of her family is not.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: So Anita leaned into her background as a physiotherapist, and through the lens of their nervous system, she began a deep dive exploring everything she needed to know about her children.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: On top of being a very busy mom, Anita is also a parenting coach and a talented writer who shares her years of experience on topics like neurodiversity, mental health, generational trauma, and what it takes to break those family cycles.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Her Substack newsletter, Horse Among Zebras, offers insights and support for parents and caregivers who are raising neurodivergent kids.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: After hearing Anita's story, you'll understand exactly why I am so excited to have her on the podcast.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get into it.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Anita, I really appreciate you joining me today.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to get right into your story for our listener.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Can you take us back to the beginning?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: What was it like becoming a mom for the very first time, specifically when your first son was, when his diagnosis was unfolding, and how that experience shaped your journey, especially as your family grew?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Take me back to the beginning.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So Liam was uh my firstborn, and he was a quirky kid.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: He was a little bit different, very, very verbal, very engaging, really, really smart, but had some challenges, you know.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So thinking backwards now, I realized that, you know, transitions were a little tough for him, changes to his routine were tough.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: And although he was sensitive, he he'd often just miss other people's emotions.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: So by the time he was 10, there's a six-year age gap between Liam and his next sibling, and then uh, which is Sam.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then Jack was born very shortly after Sam.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: So all of a sudden, at age 10, he's got, you know, toddler brothers, and that was a huge disruption.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then we moved to a bigger house in a new neighborhood.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So when Liam got to school, he, you know, so many foundations of his life had changed, and suddenly we started to see big behavior.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And at school, you know, it was really a challenge.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was a challenge at home as well.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: And one day I just thought, I need help.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't understand what's going on.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we went to see a psychologist.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And at that time I thought maybe he just doesn't understand emotions, like doesn't understand his emotions, doesn't understand other people's emotions.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I went in saying to the psychologist, I think he might be, and I said, I don't think this is a clinical term, I think he might be emotionally illiterate, and I don't know how to help him as a parent.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that started a process of getting an identification as being on the autism spectrum.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: At his age, and at that time, it would have been Asperger's syndrome, but eventually that got sort of included into the autism spectrum disorder umbrella.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: After that, the psychologist said, you know, this kind of issue runs in families.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Is it possible, you know, that your other kids are experiencing some difficulties?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so she suggested that we start them.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: They were toddlers at the time, that we start them in a preschool program just to see how they socialize and how they did with other kiddos.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, there were problems.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh fairly quickly, I would say within 18 months, we were told that all three of our children were on the autism spectrum.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Later on, ADHD was added to their diagnoses, and then a few other, you know, they they each have their own flavor.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: So each kid has their own unique additional diagnoses.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they're they're all neurocomplex people.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we found out.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: And once we found that out, we started to, I started to realize that holy cow, it is in the family.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually multi-generational.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a big shift.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, can you explain that a little bit?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, multi-generational, because it's so heritable.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I just heard this from a psychiatrist yesterday, that the heritability or the the likelihood of you inheriting ADHD is about on par with height, how you would inherit height from a parent.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea that it was that that strong of a genetic connection.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that was really amazing.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just know that now.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: But looking back, I could see a lot of my kids' behaviors were echoes of my father's, my brothers, even some of my sisters' early life, you know, where it was hard for her to regulate her emotions.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: We could see that there was like this uh string of behaviors running through the family, even when we weren't always spending a lot of time together.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like my kids were strongly influenced by watching and mimicking.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: They were actually doing this kind of independent.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was it was really shocking to me when I started to see some of these same threads.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately really freeing because once I understood my kids better, I understood my family better.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: And our family dynamics really improved after that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: There are some behaviors that are common in our family system that uh that maybe wouldn't exist in a family that's that's not uh neurodivergent.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me an example?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think difficulties with transitions at different points, maybe like executive functions, I think are the ones that show up the most.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, memory, organization, and planning sometimes.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's an interesting situation for a nervous system because I'll give you this as an example for my kids, because it was more present for me as a parent.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, they can look really, really altogether fine and will be doing something, or they'll be in a situation like, say, summer camp, and I will watch them, they're doing fine.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden, there's a skill gap.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that skill gap just feels like a giant pothole that you just fell into.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And from the outside, you just think, wow, that's a really shocking, surprising behavior.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: But once you understand that a spectrum is a behavior, you know, like it gaps, you know, strengths and challenges, and that it's really uneven.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So a great, you know, from adult life, I'm thinking about my husband, and he would always forget to tell me about conversations that he had with his mom or his sister that involved some planning.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then he would be really surprised that I didn't know, like to mark that date on the calendar, or I wouldn't know that it was a surprise party.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think, again, with his working memory, the way it is, that he would just forget that one detail.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then it would be like this pothole that we'd hit.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, you didn't tell me that.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's some some people will say that's just what a marriage is, right?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not always communicating.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds normal to me.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not always communicating all the details.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're just subtle things, really.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: But when I look at them through the lens of like neurodiversity, I start to think about well, maybe it's more than just forgetfulness, you know, that that maybe he's working really hard to remember all the other details, but this detail has been missed.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just like with my kids in camp, they're working really hard to be social and follow the rules.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: But then when a skill pops up that they don't have, it just shocks everybody, you know, the way the how quickly a situation deteriorates.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: A skill that you would think they would have because they're amongst other children that are demonstrating that skill, but for some reason they don't have it.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, or they appear to have most of the skill, but there's one spot, you know, or or that they just tip over.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the that Pepsi bottle analogy where you shake it, you shake it, you shake it until, okay, now we're at the end of the capacity and this explosion happens that nobody saw coming.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that would happen a lot with kids where at camp and in daycare, where things would seem to be fine and people would sort of say, Oh, I think you're exaggerating their needs.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: But then once the explosive behavior occurred, I would have to say, well, it was actually building.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And now we've hit this place and it's hard because they don't they have a gap in their self-regulation.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what would have been a minor annoyance has now become a full-blown meltdown that nobody thought because they looked competent up until that moment.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I really appreciate you sharing so openly about your family.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's not always easy to talk about our children and the things that are not, you know, sitting right.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard for parents.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know over the years I've seen a lot of parents who struggle with being more open.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure it's because they're afraid of being judged.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I really do appreciate how candid you've been with me so far.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I really do wish more parents would feel more comfortable talking about their experiences.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it would make such a difference to know that not all children follow this typical path.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if we could just normalize the truth that all kids come into the world with their own unique set of traits, you know?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, because of our conversations, last week I wrote an episode and it's a wake-up call to parents that it really does more harm than good to compare our children to everyone else's.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we do it from the beginning.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, my kids on like like they're they're they're the biggest, they're the best, they're the fastest, they're growing.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've grown up with that.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've seen it all around me, and I've often wondered, why are you doing that?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: What good is that?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: The the shit hasn't even hit the fence yet.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And here you are bragging about your kids.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I wish we would embrace our children for their individual qualities rather than trying to always compare them to, you know, everybody else.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So before we go any further, though, for the listener, I think we have to explain a little bit more about what neurodivergence is.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got a great handle on it.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So can you define neurodiversity and explain it as in terms of the difference between a neurotypical brain?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: You sort of touched on executive functioning, but I want you to kind of get into that a little bit more since your sons, all three of them, have experienced different, different variations of that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So please go ahead and share what neurodivergence is.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, humans, we have so much diversity, you know, in our nervous systems.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what makes us unique and and you know, sort of everybody's different.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to, you know, embrace that we're not a homogenous society.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: But neurodivergence is a little bit different.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what I love to compare it to is the difference between having an iPhone and an Android phone.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, same device does most of the same things, but they have very different operating systems.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's a fantastic analogy.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because there used to be an analogy for those of us who are older between PC and Mac, but kids don't appreciate that quite as much as maybe our generation did.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: But Android and iPhone, just really different ways of processing data and giving you the output that you're looking for.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so neurodivergent brains, and this covers a lot of disorders, like it could be uh ADHD or executive functioning issues, and even disorder I want to back away from because it's really not pathological.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually just a different expression of our humanity.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't match up to the neurotypical experience, but statistics tell us that one in 32 kids are on the autism spectrum.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I would, that's a lot.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one per classroom at least, right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: One per hockey team, probably.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so very high incidence.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably higher for other spectrum disorders, like, well, it's not a spectrum disorder, but ADHD, which is a neurodiversity, a neurodivergence, I should say.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: What else?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: OCD, a lot, even dyslexia, you know, they all fall under an umbrella of a brain that's processing information differently than the majority.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: The issue is I think we apply the benchmarks of the majority all the time.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so it seems like these folks are somehow dysfunctional.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: They're not, they're just functioning differently.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to make allowances for that.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: What's one thing that's different amongst all three of them, if you can?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, probably in the realm of executive function.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, executive function, just to back that up, what it is, is like things like planning, processing, information, impulsivity, motivation, a lot of those things because that's where the differences are in my kiddos.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: My oldest son, who is in his mid-20s and he's launching, he's yeah, he's out there in the world.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he is has high intelligence and high motivation.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so he works around, he leans really hard into his strengths, and that helps him overcome a lot of his challenges.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: My middle son, who's uh 17 and in his teens, his brain really, from an executive function point of view, like he doesn't produce a lot of dopamine.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: So he looks really unmotivated a lot of the time.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably the biggest misconception about him.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: It just takes him, because his brain doesn't produce that chemical, it takes him so much more effort to do things and start things and see them through.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, a lot of times in school, for example, he's been labeled as lazy, or people have thought he's just not interested.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's not true.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: It just is so much effort for him to get up to the threshold for action that sometimes, you know, he runs out of steam really quickly.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then my youngest, I love to call him the nutty professor.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's uh he's that ADHD drive that's he's so interested in different things.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: He's very, but when he picks an interest, he's just all in, you know, and very hyper-focused.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that works for him sometimes if it's aligned with something he's trying to do.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it can work against him.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say from an executive function point of view, he's a bit more impulsive than his brothers.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: He's more likely to want to just do things on the spot without having thought it through.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So again, you know, same on paper, same identifications.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: But when you go deeper into their testing and their profiles and in just watching them in real life, they're very, very different people and they all need to be parented differently, which is tough.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about adults, young adults becoming independent, we often think of milestones like starting a career, managing money, moving out.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: But for neurodivergent kids, the timeline can look very different.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about how your eldest son has navigated that transition?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because you mentioned he's launched, which I love.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did he make that transition into adulthood, both in terms of his executive functioning skills?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we touch on this emotionally when comparing himself to neurotypical kids who like the peers or even family members.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about how, because I think that's incredible, by the way.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so glad for you that you kept moving him along.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: But let's talk about him because he's launched.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me what that's like.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, he's launched.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's he's got a lot of internal drive and he's very good.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is the interesting mashup of his, you know, neurological profile, is that he's he's really determined, you know.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: So he's got that sort of inflexibility about his goals, even if sometimes the the pathway is appears kind of winding, but he knows where he's going.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he has a social life.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: It took him many years.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: It was tough being different, you know, it's not easy in school and in high school.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: So college is where he really took flight.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the fact that he was suddenly with people who were interested in the same things he was interested in.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: He he found his tribe, um, which was really great.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And he had been slowly building, I think, a tr another tribe, which are people who, you know, sort of embraced the quirks that he also was experiencing.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: So this is where, like, I know social media is full of perils, but at the same time, it also allowed him to connect with people that were like him, you know, that had the same sense of humor, that found had the same, you know, interest in topics.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: So he sort of built himself this social world.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, when he went to college, it was during COVID.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So he never got to have that experience of moving out and living in residence.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: He was still at home, like so many, you know, young adults at that time.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: But he he built good friendships with his classmates.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they still have reunions, they still get together.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And thinking about his career, you know, he works really hard.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's got an incredible work ethic.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think though, where things get a little challenging for him is juggling all of it all at the same time.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: So he, you know, he's got a great work ethic, he's got a good social life that he's created.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: It does make it difficult for him to do things like, you know, stay on top of laundry, keep his room clean, like just little things.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that he doesn't do them, but I just know that it costs him a whole lot more energy and effort than it does for someone else.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: So he he manages it, but sometimes, you know, if he's worked a lot of hours or something like that, in order for him not to get depleted and burned out, that's where I might sort of offer him some support.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, let's tackle this together because I know his motivation for that is low.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: I know he's spent all his energy currency on other places that are really important.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I and I just don't want him to burn out.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's having a very he's very successful at other things.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, just for clarity purposes, is he living at home?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: He's currently living at home, saving.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: He's almost saved, he's got his own car that he's paid for.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: He's living at home, he's saving up uh his down payment for a townhome.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Considering where we live.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's it's really expensive.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he has a financial plan, he has investments as well.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: So he's really great with money.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's another strength he has.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for the parent who's wondering, and I know that you're we're going to talk about like how you're amazing and you and you offer your services to help parents in the same situation because you've you've done so much work with it that now you're able to help other parents.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say I want to know how.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Would I get my young adult to start socializing?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: He seems to have nailed that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering, did and and so he used social media or did he meet people in person?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: What would you suggest to a parent who's wants to figure out how to help their son become more or their child become more social?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's so tricky, you know, and it wasn't easy for him in the beginning.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of credit goes to my oldest son, like goes to Liam for this.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: But for him, I think his interests were really very specific.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was hard to find other young adults that had that level of knowledge and interest.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it was frustrating for him.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think, you know, his expectations of other people his age were really high.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then people were not meeting them.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of a typical Aspergian autistic thing.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I also find that with my younger two as well, that again, their interests are really narrow and focused.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so a passing conversation just doesn't scratch the itch for them.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't yet, they're still working on having enough social flexibility to tolerate somebody else's interest and show appropriate interest in that other person.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a bit of a monologue, an information dump, a you know, one-track interest.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: I've found though, and I am less panicked about my younger two than I was for Liam, that they they're good at finding their tribes as they get older.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they start to connect with other people who have that same kind of passion.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: So my youngest one, for example, is just all in on Pokemon.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm smiling because I wanted you to say that story.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that he found his tribe.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So please share that one.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so he has always been interested in Pokemon.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: We were a little careful with him because his impulse control and things like that are, you know, can be a challenge for him.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: But with some guardrails, we sort of let him buy cards, let him start to interact online a little bit with it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And now he's actually found in-person trading opportunities, uh, these little clubs that operate where they sell and trade cards, they grade them, and he hangs out.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I joke, it's like our rep hockey, you know, in our house because he's out three or four nights a week, you know, playing games, uh, meeting other people at trading and just chatting and really, you know, filling his cup socially around this special interest.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And how did he find them?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Over time, uh how did he find the the live plus?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I want to know how, and you know what it's funny because I'm not I'm not gonna keep comparing your kids to neurotypical kids, but this is a problem for a lot of young adults and kids.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do they make their friends?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's it can't always be in school.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it has to be outside of school.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm asking this question for your kids, but I think it's a question that every parent wants to know.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I hear it all the time.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Where how do children meet other children that are like-minded?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's definitely for them online communities.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: When they were old enough to access some of them, it was helpful.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's scary, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Also to have, so it's like finding that balance between what they're connecting to online, what their special interests are, and and helping, you know, just helping them navigate.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it felt risky for us at times, but it has allowed him to, you know, I had we had to step back and trust his discernment to a certain level and then check in with them like, are these good places?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then when my husband took him to his first meetup, like my husband kind of lingered around on the on the periphery, you know, to see what it was like.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how we how how it happened for Jack.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: For that's my youngest.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: For my oldest, he was on a lot of forums talking about very specific car things, you know, but he was younger than most of the uh the people in those forums.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that was again, you know, my husband joined some of them so he could monitor.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually, my son was so into racing and cars, my oldest, that he ended up doing simulated racing, which is an online racing, and he's was able to race and compete with some of the Porsche drivers who were the uh driving instructors.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: So again, like he's he was 15, 16, doing these races and placing fairly well in them against adults, and so that gave him, you know, I think a lot of confidence.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: He went on to work for Porsche for a while.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: He volunteers with Porsche Club of Canada or he used to, he's too busy now.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: But so again, letting him follow those interests.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: He also had a like a fascination with big trucks when he was little.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: So again, my husband, you know, arranged to uh register them as a company, kind of company, so that they could go to truck shows that were industry events and he could check out all the regs and you know it just it just fed his his interest.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: They're offbeat.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: But they're but there's so the passion runs so deep.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's allowed them, you know.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Again, Liam now works in trucking, and it is because of his early interest.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So with neurotypical kids, we use the term failure to launch when they're struggling to gain independence.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: But neurodivergent kids, they're not failing, they're just on a different path.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And again, in one of our recent conversations, you use the word, the term slower to launch.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain what that means and why it's so important for parents to shift their mindset?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we're going back to stop comparing their neurodivergent child to others and instead start focusing on what's developmentally right for your child.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's talk a little bit about slower to launch.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's so important.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think the biggest misconception about neurodivergent kids and young adults and adults is that it's something you grow out of.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, you know, and I really want that to sit there for a minute.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: It isn't.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is a different brain.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn a lot of skills, you can develop a lot of strategies, but at the end of the day, it's a different way that your brain operates.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so for parents, you know, to have a lot of compassion that there will be peaks and valleys in a neurodivergent person's capacity, and that that is absolutely okay.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that it is actually completely how it is.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, I think I think people get impatient with their teenagers thinking, oh, I can't believe we're still struggling with this.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: I wish they'd grow up, you know, they should be more mature.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: But they're doing the best they can with the uh way that their nervous system works.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really important.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: So slower to launch for me means and get a good sense of the individual in front of you and where their strengths are, and and then you know, leverage those strengths to be able to become more independent.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing that parents often overlook for slower to launch young adults is that learning doesn't always generalize.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so if you teach one skill and you expect in each situation for them to be able to repeat that skill, that's not how a neurodivergent brain always works.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: So doing laundry at home, for example, they might be completely independent doing laundry at home.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Doing laundry in residence is a whole new skill set.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like so the situation is different and the skill needs to be kind of relearned or tweaked in the new setting.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's really important because you can look at them and make a snap judgment that they're failing somehow when really it's just about how they learn situationally, not taking something and broadly applying it.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: And this is not every single kid, but it's many.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's years ago I heard this expression, it's not the destination, it's the journey.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, I think, again, how you have to treat your children.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think we all have to treat even ourselves that way.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, give ourselves and our children, which regardless of their type of brain, just that grace.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's no finish, like there's there's no finish line.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the process, right?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And your process, their process is different, but it's not bad or good, it's just different, you know.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Grace is such a good word, Sherry.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like because it we do, we need to be compassionate with them.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: We need to be compassionate with ourselves.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's important also to always, you know, assume some competency.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Assume that your neurodivergent child is trying and wants to do well, and then be prepared to let them fail once in a while.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not like you have to rescue them from the failure, but it's support them when they do so that they, you know, they learn, they learn, you learn, but that takes an enormous amount of grace to, you know, to know that something's gonna go wrong, but to just kind of sit back and be ready to catch them and be the soft place to land.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's takes a lot of of self-compassion and a lot of grace.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is actually my next thing I wanted to say to you is that we've touched on the timelines and how they look different for neurodivergent kids, but I want to pause for a second and ask you to share what this feels like for you as a parent.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about you just mentioned with grace to the children, but what about grace for yourself?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, compassion for yourself.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I just, if you can, just tell me when your child is not hitting the typical milestones and other parents are stepping back, but you're still so heavily involved.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: How does that feel for you?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like talk about those emotions, the the guilt, the frustration, even that sense of isolation as a parent.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just tell me how Anita's doing.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I'm doing better having had one run at this with my oldest son.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in more maturity now when I'm parenting my younger two.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's getting easier.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of judgment when you're raising kids that are responding to the world differently.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it is isolating.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: It is a bit lonely because other, you know, children are or even young adults are doing different things.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And mine will do them, but do them in a different timeline and probably do them in a on a timeline different from their brothers, even.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's so it can be isolating.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can feel judged a lot for you know stepping in to do things.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's easy to hear, you know, over coffee with friends, like, oh, I won't do their laundry, or I charge them X number of dollars, you know, to be their laundry service.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that parenting style doesn't work in my house.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I am often going in the opposite direction of my peers, you know, with lower demands in certain things.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's tailored to my kids.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: I feel better now uh marching to the beat of our own drummer, but it took a while to get to that because I did, especially with my oldest son, I tried all the things that other parents and that a lot of parent experts were recommending.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: They were backfiring.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I just felt like I was just so unsuccessful as a mother.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: But when I started switched to parenting the child who was in front of me, the individual, even if it went against everything, you know, that experts were saying, that worked.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we started to lean into what worked, and and I think my confidence has grown considerably over that time because the house is way calmer.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the kids are way happier, which allows me to feel much happier.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing it was that's helped my self-compassion grow is to let go of my rigid expectations.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was a type A, you know, really loved school, really emphasized academics a lot.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's not my kids.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's not who they are.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so just being able to be a little looser with my expectations, to be, you know, really thinking about the big picture.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: And does it matter that all the laundry is in a jumbled basket on the floor?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if I were doing it, it would be folded and put away right away.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, like this is this is very this is typical or neurodivergent kids, you know, just lowering the bar.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, your laundry's done.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: You have clean clothes for work.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is it folded and put away?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, but that's okay.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's not, you know, that might come later and it may not come at all.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm not a failure as a mother because my kid didn't fold their underwear and put it away in the right drawer, you know.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Amen to that.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 35:33
  unknown: Right.
• 35:34
  unknown: Right.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did you do for support now that you are so much like ahead of the game here?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like, and that's why you're doing what you're doing.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: But who is there for you?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Early days, not too many people.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I I just want to emphasize, I'm just for a lot of parents, I'm I'm no special expert, I but I have lived this intensely.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also have my experience as a physiotherapist, which has really helped me break down steps and break down goals and assess therapies and things like that.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that's been helpful.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: But when my oldest son was diagnosed, all I was getting was, you know, a few minutes at the end of his appointments.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: And usually it wasn't for me to process anything, it was for me to be given a list of more jobs that we needed to do after we left therapy.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it was exhausting, you know, because I was parenting at 110% and then also kind of doing all the therapy and work behind the scenes.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't have anybody.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know anybody who was living my experience.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have time to find people who were living it because I all I could do is just get through the days.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: But over time, as my kids got a little bit older, I started to get to realize that this is a marathon.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't going to be a sprint whereby, you know, such and such a date they would be, you know, fixed.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: This was our lifelong commitment to each other, me and my kids.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started to reach out for some more support.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: I a lot of the behaviors that we were encountering were very triggering, you know, because sometimes it can come off as very aggressive.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Also, the adults and systems don't always understand your children.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really hard to listen to, for example, school expectations and interpretations of things without feeling kind of personally attacked.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I needed to do a lot of work with therapists on my hot buttons so that I could show up then for my kids in a calm and regulated way.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, when a situation was over, I could go and unpack that with a therapist and and and work it through.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I was kind of, you know, doing therapy in real time in and out.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Reading really helped me, reading thoughts of people who actually have ADHD, executive functioning issues, autistics, so reading memoirs.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Social media has been wonderful as well as a support.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've joined a few groups and just saying, you know, I'm a mom of three, I'm an ally, but I'm here to understand, you know, older people talking about what's going on.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's been huge in terms of help and support.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: It helps me ask my kids the right questions.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sorry, when you say older people, do you mean older people with neurodivergent?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I should clarify that.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: So some of the, you know, especially late diagnosed folks who are unpacking, you know, oh, when I was a kid, I wish I had known, or this is what medication has been like for me.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: Those are really helpful insights to have because my kids, when they're living it, they're not always able to articulate it.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it also validates me to a certain extent to go, I'm on the right track with that.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think listening to actually neurodivergent folks discuss their their lived experience has been a huge support to me as I try to support my kids.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think I would, I think that's an amazing idea to go ahead and say, okay, so I'm dealing with this right now, but what do I, what can I expect in the future?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was going to touch on like, you know, the managing your expectations over the years.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: But instead of you, it's such a black box, if you will, of you're in unknown territory.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the best thing you can do is like what you did, and go ahead and meet older people and say, like, where are you now?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and they didn't even have the support that they had is uh that you're providing your your young adult.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that's great.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so you found that that's really helped you in terms of expectations, it's like what you can look forward to almost.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or at least it helps me ask better questions, I think, you know, like about how my kids are experiencing things because it's everybody's lens and and history is different, but it it just it helps refine, I guess, you know.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it isn't such a black box.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm now just trying to explore, you know, a few symptoms or uh or one particular life issue, and I've gathered three or four perspectives, and now I can kind of ask good questions about it.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you asked about expectations, and I think that's a really interesting one because we can get really locked into just having the same expectations all the time of our kids, like not adjusting our expectations as our kids grow up.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like I see that often in other parents and the frustration.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I've I've been guilty of it as well, thinking, oh, they're never gonna do X, Y, or Z.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about your expectations and how you've had to modify them, if you can.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: The expectation for independence has been a slow build.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm really careful not to lock us into you must be able to do the five things, you know, by certain age.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think what's happened with expectations is I've kind of tossed them out the window and just focused on little micro steps, you know.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, are you able to gather your laundry and get it all into the basket, you know, on laundry day, for example?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Are you able to get it from there to in front of the washing machine?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, we're moving forward, you know.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Are you able to now get it into the machine?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's that's how small sometimes the steps need to be, you know, until you get to for someone else, you might be able to say, grab your clothes and put them in the washing machine.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: But for a neurodivergent kid with executive function issues, like that that's a big ask.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's many, many small steps in there.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: So being able to just lower your expectation to those micro steps, it's like, okay, we're moving forward now.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I had my kids even get to the point where they put the soap in, they put the clothes in, and I'll say, Did you hit start?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll go, Oh no.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's like it is the expectation is like, okay, we got there.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: We got there.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: It took us 10 steps, and that's okay.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: Where I think it, you know, in earlier days, I would have just thought that was just one goal, get your laundry into the machine, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: But it's actually many small wins before you get there.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's how it's changed.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that lets us build on success and it lets it take the pressure off of me.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not thinking way, way out there, like, oh my gosh, they'll never know how to cook a meal, they'll never know.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just breaking it down a little to smaller, you know.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Can you scramble an egg?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you have to make a meal, then you can scramble an egg.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Even, even just things as simple as the appliances we choose for them.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have an air fryer that automatically turns off after a certain amount of time.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the whole kitchen, they're they don't have they're not using the stove and the stovetop, like it's safe and they can be independent.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Another game saver was a panini press.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a lot of things you can make in a panini press.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh again, it's independent, it's safe.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if they forget and leave the stove on, like it's not an issue now, you know, because the machine will turn itself off.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think setting people up for success too, just in the everyday environment also has helped us kind of build those small steps towards independence.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like Liam's much more competent in the kitchen, obviously, at his age and stage.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: He's, you know, what's age appropriate for him, you know, like even things like, you know, getting his paycheck into the deposited, paying his car insurance, just those basic life skills, you know, like he.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: That he can grocery shop now.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: And not every I don't want to make it sound like every kid is capable of that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: You just have to really look at what your child is able to do, right?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are some children on the spectrum for whom independence might just look like being able to use a communication board to say, I need to use the washroom.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that population sometimes feels like, oh, you know, independence.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's nice to talk about independence when your kids are doing well.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: But independence for kids who are facing big challenges looks different too, right?
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's being able to communicate basic needs.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's being able to express a feeling or an emotion or a discomfort.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: So independence looks just so different depending on what your capacities are, what your strengths are.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: One of the biggest challenges that parents face, especially when their adult child is still living at home, is figuring out where to draw the line between helping and overhelping.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we're touching on all of this, but I'm I guess where I'm going is setting boundaries.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: So talk about how you have approached that boundary setting part of raising a young adult.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: What kinds of boundaries have made the biggest difference in your family?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you maintain them while still being supportive?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like, you know, set the boundaries, step back, set the boundaries, but watch over them.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you how would you talk about boundaries in your in your family?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, boundaries is an interesting one.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And again, they're different to each individual.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say the common ones we have are that you show up with respect for other people.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a, you know, and and sometimes that boundary gets crossed because of emotional dysregulation, because of a host of things.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of my kids, their profiles or their phenotype in autism means that they don't always respect hierarchies in social settings.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't, you know, look at people and go, oh, you have authority.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: They feel that everything's sort of level.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't it your little one?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Tell that story.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, he's so great.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: So he really didn't, you know, he was in kindergarten and he absolutely had no idea about social hierarchy in school.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so he just referred to all his teachers by their last names and uh would walk in in the morning very sunny and look at the principal and go, Hey Gilman, and uh hey, McDonald, and and uh, you know, just high-five them and keep on going.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: So he had no idea that they weren't his peer group, you know.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's kind of tough, right?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it gets them in it gets them into other troubles when they get older.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I tried to instill in them early that, you know, we just respect everybody because trying to teach them about social hierarchies, like they're complicated.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're that's a real invisible social skill.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: So just saying you just presume that everybody deserves your respect.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that was one boundary.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, they they've crossed it a few times and I've had to show up in awkward meetings and and be supportive, but each time, you know, we learn from it.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: And now my expectation of them, you know, is is age appropriate.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, don't, I don't know, I can't think of like, you know, listen to your teacher, or if you're having a hard time, you know, now they have the capacity to say, look, it I'm having a really hard time.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: I need to walk away from the situation, and they can say it in a respectful way, even just teaching them that to say, I'm walking away from the classroom, but I'm going to the office, or I'm going to student support, so that the adults all understood, you know, that they weren't just taking off randomly.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a boundary around respect.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I can imagine that parenting a neurodivergent child can be all-consuming.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like it is.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, even without realizing it, your identity starts to revolve around being needed.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that risk of codependency.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: How does it become even more complicated, especially if there's addiction or self-medicating behaviors in the picture?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a topic I I want to see if we can kind of unpack for a minute.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a huge topic.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it begins, I think it begins with just being really honest with ourselves about evaluating where what our kids actually need.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so updating ourselves about what skills they actually have.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that might mean letting them fail at a few things so that you can get a decent benchmark of where they are.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because if without that, without that sort of opportunity to test their limit from time to time in a safe and supported way, your expectations or your beliefs about your child don't grow with them.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think then what also happens is confidence gets eroded.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so on the child or young adult side, that idea of learned helplessness, of why bother, you know, really can get ingrained.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then once you get to people sort of in that complex dance, and trust me, you do it parenting is intense, and you're often there in ways that you don't expect to be, and you're advocating a lot.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it is it's easy to start to feel like that you must advocate their entire lives.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I would encourage parents to just step back and evaluate is this actually true?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what can I hand off and what can I outsource to a coach or someone else to keep yourselves intact as individuals and moving forward.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing that happens is that when we're not honest about what's going on and not checking in in some way, that difficult behaviors, self-soothing behaviors start to occur, maybe in both parties.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: But for the young adult, for example, you know, that's gaming excessively or spending a lot of time, you know, screen addicted, or is self-medicating, you know, with weed or alcohol, or is living dangerously and per, you know, with a lot of promiscuity because of impulse control.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: We have to be really honest about that and not be ashamed about it, because then we, if we're ashamed about it and somehow trying to micromanage it, it just feeds itself.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's very unhealthy, I think, for both parties.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important to just be honest and seek help.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a complicated dynamic.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's started out in a useful, helpful way.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like when we're parenting neurodivergent kids, a lot of times we're subbing in our prefrontal cortex, which is where all the executive functions live around planning and emotional regulation and impulse control.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, parents are providing that service.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a tipping point there, you know, because I think you really do have to assist their brain with your brain.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: So there is there is an intermingling.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: The tricky part is when that becomes so habitual that you stop seeing the growth, you know, that you just fall into the rut of that.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I think it gets really tricky.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think professional support's really important because burnout happens for parents a lot, burnout happens for neurodivergent people a lot because of that emotional overload, you know, the people are emotionally invested, but the the the system, the family system, this the education system, whatever system, the work system, it's not working for them anymore.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: And their nervous system just collapses in the face of that.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have a young adult who's kind of in a burnout or or who's got learned helplessness and is starting to have addictive, self-soothing behaviors that aren't healthy, you know, parental well-being goes down too.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: And now nobody's able to help each other.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're locked into that because of a cycle of shame or a belief that you should have done better, it just reinforces the isolation of that.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: I actually wanted to ask you about burnout, burnout and neurodivergent.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then to explain that a little bit more, you have, but I touched on it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then you've even talked about skill regression and burnout.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm hearing is is the burnout for the parent as well as the as the young adult?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's for both.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: It might happen at different times.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why, you know, I really encourage people, especially when they're have young children that just get an identification, to start investing in themselves.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: But it feels impossible.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: I know that, but it it's so important because you're in a marathon now and you need all your resources.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I think, you know, the healthcare system that we have, the education system, those systems aren't really serving neurodivergent kids very well at the moment.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the parent who is invested emotionally in their child wanting to be well, wanting them to be well supported, and then seeing how broken sometimes systems are, or working in systems that are not very helpful, it's exhausting.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: Then there's also the family system, right?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a in our household, we had three very different individuals needing very different things at very different times.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it was I joke about it being like whack-a-mole, like we're always, but you might also have a family system where you have a neurotypical sibling who's just feeling lost because of all the need.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and a parent, you know, we're we know that, but we're doing the best we can.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so the level of emotional outpouring is a lot, and then you factor in isolation in some ways.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: You really like we need external supports.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: I understand.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, but give me an example if you can about skill regression.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, skill regression in burnout.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: What happens is the nervous system collapses into where everything feels like a threat.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like a turtle, you know, everything pulls back in and retracts.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: So someone who may have been cruising along just fine, managing very complicated things, a job, a family, but they're also neurodivergent.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually, what can happen if you're not taking good care is that there'll be one thing too many.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: And now all of a sudden, the nervous system, which is tolerated, tolerated, tolerated, moves into shutdown.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: And when it moves into shutdown, it's just protecting vital resources.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the skill regression might be that it's suddenly, suddenly someone's no longer able to keep up with the skills of independent living, like you know, feeding themselves appropriately, managing their money well, keeping their environment or clean or their own, even their own hygiene.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're just in survival mode.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say that neurodivergent divergent people, especially autistic folk, can have that happen sometimes.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're parenting someone and they're moving into a burnout, it's not because of a moral failing.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just really important to recognize that their system has just tipped into overload.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the way out is support, not pep talks, not ultimatums or threats.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is, I see that you are not safe inside yourself.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: And how are we, how are we going to just help your nervous system heal?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a time for a parent to where we might see a regression and we actually do need to step back in and be prepared to support.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or if we can't do that, we have to be able to also outsource some of that.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that might look like a therapist, might look like a medication review with the psychiatrist, it might look like some counseling, especially with someone who is up to date on neurodivergent brains and thinking.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: It could be an addictions coach, you know, or a life skill coach when they're ready, when they're ready to participate.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: They have to still summon enough energy.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: They have to have enough time in that safety zone to be like the turtle, ready to just poke their head out enough for help to come in.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you're again, you're first of all, I was that would I feel like we're on like one step, like we're one step behind each other, ahead of each other.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I wanted to talk about outsourcing support.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: So is that though that would be an instance where you would, I mean, other than outsourcing support because you need it, you know, for your own self-preservation and your own self-regulation, you need outside support.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: But is it also during a crisis when you see that they're regressing or burning out?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when you go and get that support?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think support, you know, again, it's a lifelong difference.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I think a lot of, especially ADHD folk, they're really, they just tend to be pretty good at knowing what they're good at and what they're where what just takes a lot of energy.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: So even, you know, like I look at my kids, for example.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you have ADHD and you are showing up at work and you're, you know, getting groceries and managing your finances, but cleaning your house is just too much.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like that just takes too much effort.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's a great place to outsource if you can.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: So whether, you know, so it's like having services available to us that just help us lean into our strengths better.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, like some great examples, and we have so many now, like it's it's amazing.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like HelloFresh or something like that, where it's a meal delivery or ordering your groceries online, and all you have to do is show up and pick them up or pay for a grocery delivery once a week.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it might be cleaning, it might be maybe you need to just take your shirts to the dry cleaners in order to have them laundered and pressed, you know, and have a routine around that because you know, managing them is just too much work, but you're you're really great at your job.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: You're just not great at the back end of it.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: So many like apps that uh are out there now, exchanges, even just body doubling, like saying if you have a roommate, it's like, oh my gosh, I can't bring myself to clean.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't we do it together?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's just start together.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that you're doing it together is actually just helps.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, from paying lots of money to paying no money, you know, and anywhere in between.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's important to not look at those services as uh total luxuries.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: They're actually allowing someone to show up in life as their best self.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: It allows somebody to show up as their best self.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've ever heard that put so eloquently, so beautifully, that reaching out to support and the support could be any of those things, is just it's freeing.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's so freeing.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a hard truth that you shared with me.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Not every neurodivergent young adult will be able to live independently.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: And for many families, that is scary and feels very uncertain.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, what concerns do you hear most from parents on that topic?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: And how can you speak to the needs of, in terms of, you know, transitional or I think it's called supported living options?
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like what's out there?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's so little out there to serve this population.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think parents are doing their best, and that's this is probably one of the biggest fears, especially if you are really offering a lot of support to your neurodivergent child, or not child, adult.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there's all kinds of concern around that.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think we need to do better as a society to recognize the unique skills and gifts in this population, because there's a subset that will, yeah, definitely be able to go out and launch and get jobs and do all of that.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's another subset of neurodivergent folks who will struggle to find ongoing work or who might be earning below a living wage, but still contributing, you know, still so important contributing.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it, you know, without living in a parent's home, they don't have a lot of choices.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where I really feel it's so important for us as a society to consider what kind of supported living arrangements that we can have so that, you know, everyone deserves the opportunity for independence.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: And assisted living can create that community, can fill in some of those gaps that parents are currently filling in when parents are unable to do that anymore.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it's really terrifying to think that we may have health problems and still have somewhat dependent, you know, adults living in our homes.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking, you know, of groups, small groups that have, you know, taken, you know, different neurodivergent groups, especially autistic uh travelers, you know, to destinations.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: Another friend who's a young adult uh child is traveling, they have Down syndrome, but there's like uh a group of Down syndrome folks that go off on vacation with with some facilitators.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they're they're adults, they want to have experiences, they want to travel, they want to do things.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it it's just if the parent is the only person, you know, it's just I don't know, it doesn't feel very independent, right?
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: We need more opportunities like that.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know there's some camps for autistic young adults as well, where you know, it's it's community meal prep and it's adventures and you know, it's trying things like kayaking and so you know, making those social connections and mom and dad aren't there.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's an opportunity to just, you know, like we're I think we're all restricted a little bit when our parents are hovering.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's so nice to have those opportunities, but they're very rare, they're too rare right now.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunate.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: So before we wrap up, what message would you want to share with parents who are, you know, raising neurodivergent kids and are feeling overwhelmed?
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are there any final thoughts, suggestions, words of encouragement that you could, you know, share with them?
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think the most important thing is to educate yourself.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: Learn as much as you can about neurodiversity and neurodivergence.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_02: Really dig into your particular kids' uh challenges and strengths, especially their strengths.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: So learning information, information, information about everything really is helpful.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then finding a community, which is hard in the early days.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: I get it, because people are a little bit tired, not just a little bit tired, they're really tired.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot, it's a lot.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: So find somebody, keep looking, because now I think social media has got some things that we can find.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: We can we can look for different resources where we can connect and feel seen.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: So community is important, education of yourself is important.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think the last one is is to seek your own support team.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: Your kid's gonna have one, but look for yours, you know.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_02: So whether that's therapists, coaches, other parents, so yeah, those three things.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: Learn as much as you can, you know, look for for other families living what you're living, and get yourself some help so that your nervous system stays healthy.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: You've clearly gained a tremendous amount of insight through your experiences.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the way now that you're using your knowledge to support other parents, because actually I I think that first of all, I deeply respect what you've what you've done.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you've not just done it and are going through it, but that you are willing to help other parents.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that I'll be giving your information, leaving it in the show notes on how to contact you.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many parents that must be so exhausted.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact that you're there and you offer this support, I really hope that parents reach out to you because I know I would in a heartbeat.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've love talking to you.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: I hope we can maintain this friendship.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to keep finding out how the boys are doing.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: And more than anything, Anita, I think people should reach out to you because you are such a source of inspiration.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I will definitely encourage people to contact you because why not have that support system?
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why not take care of yourself and know that you are not alone in this?
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Sherry.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Anita.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: And blushing a little.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it wasn't it wasn't a perfect journey, but it I've learned from from a lot of it.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I'm so I'd be I really wanted someone to talk to you about it who had lived it before me.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm really happy to turn around and say, I I've been I've been where you are.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's and there's a way forward.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, I thank you.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again, Sherry.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood.
• 1:06:31
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• 1:06:38
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• 1:06:43
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• 1:06:47
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• 1:06:51
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• 1:06:54
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• 1:06:56
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• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to you soon.