Latest / Low to Grow / Natalie Chung Sum Yue on V'air, Imperfect Environmentalism and Climate Adaptation

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Natalie Chung Sum Yue on V'air, Imperfect Environmentalism and Climate Adaptation · Low to Grow

0:00
While queuing up for a cup of coffee, I started talking to
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this person in front of me and he actually lined up an
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interview with the Prime Minister of Bhutan for me during
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the cup the next. Day do you ever get?
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Frustrated at the pace of change?
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Totally. I've always been very frustrated
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with the pace of change at some point.
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That, in the climate space, is especially a pessimistic.
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What is 1 misconception that you think people could have?
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I remember missing one of my closest friends weddings.
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She invited me as her bridesmaid but I could have make it the
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end. So she had to make like
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immediate adjustments, what I would have chosen differently if
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I were to choose again. Quick note before we start, if
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you have enjoyed this podcast and want to support our
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incredible guests, please follow Low to Grow podcast on Instagram
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and TikTok. Welcome to Low to Grow, the
0:49
podcast transforming life's toughest moments into
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opportunity for growth. I'm Annie, a Focus on Authority
0:55
Technology founder who's entrepreneurship journey ran
0:58
parallel to a metro health awakening.
1:01
In every episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals and
1:05
delve into how they managed to turn their personal or
1:08
professional challenges into opportunities for growth.
1:12
If you're facing uncertainty in your life, feeling down, or
1:16
simply need a kick of inspiration to keep moving
1:18
forward, this is your space for the honest and uplifting
1:22
conversations that you will want to hear.
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Hit follow so you never miss an episode.
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And let's dive in on this episode of Low to Grow.
1:31
We have someone who truly embodies what it means to turn
1:33
conviction into momentum and action.
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Natalie Chen is a climate advocate and social entrepreneur
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from Hong Kong whose journey started really early.
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At just 18, she Co founded there an award-winning social
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enterprise reimagining sustainable tourism as a pathway
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to climate education and resilience.
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Since then, she has carved out a remarkable global presence,
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earning recognition for her leadership while staying deeply
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grounded in service and impact. Natalie, for example, has
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represented Hong Kong at the United Nations Climate
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Conference, empowered you voices in global negotiations and also
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advised government councils on decarbonisation, whilst
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contributing her expertise towards organizations like the
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World Bank, the United Nation and also the World Economic
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Forum through the Global Shapers Program.
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And yes, she has even gone on an expedition to Antarctica with
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world renowned ocean experts to help shape a new modern day
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strategy for a carbon neutral future.
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For anyone listening to this podcast who is committed to
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growth and meaningful contribution to society, I
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strongly believe that Natalie's clarity of purpose and fearless
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action will be an inspiring blueprint to take forward.
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Natalie, who do you think our conversation today will most
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benefit? I think our podcast today will
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benefit the most everyone pursuing their passion and
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dreams. No matter what age you're in,
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what career stage you're in, you're always open and have the
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flexibility and freedom to take on a side interest or pursue
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your passion project. So everyone who's hoping to have
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a career transition or just to start your community and start a
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new hockey as welcome to join a podcast.
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I'm so excited to be having you on the Live Trade podcast,
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Natalie. We first met when we were both
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not Swift through a Chinese dance group, and I'm really glad
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that we've been able to stay in touch.
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And I love seeing other posts of your life updates and your
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career updates as well on Instagram.
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You lived in Hong Kong and that's where you were born.
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And then you moved to the UK dot switch to your masters and now
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you're at Princeton, do your PhD.
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I'm quite curious to understand the ether.
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Wasn't the theme of climate analysis, sustainability that's
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always been quite sexual to you? What started that interest for
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you? Yeah, first of all, it's so
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amazing to catch up here in London.
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It's been such a long time since we've last caught up, but I've
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also been seeing amazing pause in the work that you've been
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campaigning, especially starting this new podcast.
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For me, I actually started discovering my passion at the
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early age of 11. I still remember there was a
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school project and it's on the topic of what is going to
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change. And for that project, a primary
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school teacher very kindly invited a famous polar explorer
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in Hong Kong called Doctor Rebecca Lee.
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She's the first person in the world jump into the three bulls,
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which are the North Pole, South Pole and maneuvers.
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And she was sharing with us how the earth is warming.
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She used a particular analogy, which is like the Earth is
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trapped in the microwave with continuously rising temperature
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at the virgin explosion. I think that a major really
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stuck to my mind ever since and inspired me to care for the
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planet and do something to refer to warming.
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That was maybe 2006 and seven ESG or climate or sustainability
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was not a big or dominant theme yet.
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So I was just trying to gain as much knowledge as possible
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already, you know, reading the news internationally and looking
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at what exactly is global warming and how is it related to
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climate change and a free weather events.
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So I think that kind of awareness blossomed pretty early
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on. But when I really took tangible
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action was when I reached 18, when I first went to university.
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During my first year, I joined the pigeon competition right
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before COP 21 that the Paris Agreement was signed.
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And before that, the French councillor in Hong Kong was
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trying to raise awareness among the public about 5 minutes.
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So they organized this preaching competition.
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And my team and I came up with the idea of starting a local
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festival tourism company that can help motivate people to
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discover biodiversity in their neighborhoods and vicinity.
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And we started this social enterprise conference,
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Sustainability Education, which is still running until today.
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I love that. I also love how the initiative
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that led you to your first social enterprise started at
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university. What kind of activities did you
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first start doing when you and your team first created there,
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and how has that really changed over the years?
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Yeah, it seriously has been such a long journey.
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I can't believe it's fairly over.
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Yeah, around 10 years now. Started around 2015.
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At the start we were thinking to create a website that compares
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Hong Kong's tours, attraction and nature scenery with global
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attractions. Hong Kong also has these amazing
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hexagonal volcanic rocks that can compare to work class
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destinations as a lot of people imagine cities as concrete
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jungle like New York, London and Hong Kong.
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But actually all these cities have their own nature
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sanctuaries. There are some nice parks in
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London and equally in Hong Kong. Actually 70% of our land is
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green built and around 40% of it is preserved as country parks.
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So we have long hit the target of 3530 that globally we're
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talking about right now. So we really want to use these
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natural resources, better utilize them as educational
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hubs. We take students outside to
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nature on eco tools and curating different types of nature based
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experiences. That's how we started.
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We started with the website with information and we started
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getting more inquiries. These information are amazing,
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but what about actually taking us outdoors and looking at these
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places, having professional targets to do it?
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So the model transitioned from an online presence to offline.
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We started with digital content creation into the physical eco
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tools and now we also pivoted into different fields including
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research, policy and focusy all around climate and society
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tourism. One of the really exciting class
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we had recently was with Disneyland in Hong Kong.
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Oh, it's just good to ask you about that.
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I saw it on your. Instagram.
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That's amazing. Yeah, we actually launched it
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last year on World Environment Day, the 5th of June.
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It was an idea because I'm a big Disney fan and I've had the
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annual pass for gave me the past decade.
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Like every year I keep renewing it.
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Every time I go to Disney, I look at the surrounding,
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although like the whole Disney Land is built on land that used
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to be nature, but after the building of the theme park,
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there are also a lot of trees being preserved and imported
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species and biodiversity. And there are also different
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environmental social governance initiatives around the park.
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For instance, Disneyland Hong Kong, it's a single corporate
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with the largest solar panel installations on top of the
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small small world attraction. So we realized that there are
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these interconnections. How are we able to bridge the
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gap between a theme park experience and an immersive
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nature education asset? We talked to the management at
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Disney to explore. They're interested in the idea
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of bringing children and students of different ages into
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the theme park to learn about sustainability and they're
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really passionate about it. So we worked for around half a
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year to get the content creation.
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We Co created the syllabus with them and infused a lot of Disney
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Element and Disney stories. One great example is there's
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this Moana Celebration attraction in Hong Kong
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Disneyland, and Moana is actually a story of a girl
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living in the Pacific Islands facing sea level rise issues
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with unsustainable fisheries. We're tying the story with the
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actual climate scenarios. So when people saw the
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celebration in the attraction, they can connect it with Lyft
9:14
experiences and the urgency of the climate crisis.
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So it became a really good tool to convey these messengers.
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And we also developed the whole syllabus around the US
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Sustainable Development Goals. There were some border
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conservation ideas near the castle with their water storage
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tank recycling green water. So we tied that with the SCG
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order quality. And we also tied, for example,
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about industry and innovation with that STG.
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I love that. I love how you have managed to
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breed policy, UNSTG goals and by so interactive elements to that
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whole experience. And I think especially when it's
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talented for a slightly younger audience, that's what will
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really be memorable. And but so So what they go
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remember as well. And I'm sure I've loved them go
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there. And if they read about for their
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story, there will be very much inspired by you as well.
10:01
We'll come for achieving 30 by 30.
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So that's not the case for all countries in the world.
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In the world at the moment, In Western countries at the moment,
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ESG funding is a bit lower than what they used to be.
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Why are your thoughts on that? Because I know that at the
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moment your PhD at Princeton is focused on climate related
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policy. Yeah.
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So currently I'm doing my PhD efforts in on the climate
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policy. Specifically I'm looking at how
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nature based solutions help with flood risk reduction, which is
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like a part of climate change adaptation.
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I think you're right. Like in the European markets, we
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saw some of the funding retreated from renewable energy
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technologies and other climate tech.
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And in the US, appetite on ERC funds have also been decreasing
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with the new administration, a lot of the legal federal changes
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as well as corporate backlash or like not committing or even
10:55
retrieving their UFC targets. But I do see a trend that has
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been quite consistent in Asia, companies are still very
11:02
committed towards the Nets are targets that they've sent.
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And in the US, even though the overall federal government is
11:08
discouraging, a lot of states are still putting a lot of work
11:11
into green tech and sustainability related measures
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and legal frameworks such as California, like New York City.
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Last month I was at New York Climate Week and one of the
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organizers from the climate group mentioned that actually
11:25
before September 2025, they were really scared because New York
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Climate Week has been an annual event I think for the past 10
11:32
years. And this year they were worried
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that since the term administration, they won't be
11:36
able to do it at this scale. But in the end, they actually
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managed to exceed the number of events compared with last year.
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So we're seeing really a corporate uprising and a lot of
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grassroot movements happening despite the federal lack of
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attention or lack of funding or support.
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Philanthropy is filling a big gap in the space.
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And even in some of the UN dialogues and called meetings at
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the UN climate change conferences, I was hearing how
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about countries were thinking how to fill the gap if the US
12:05
really retreat or withdraw from the Paris Agreement, which Trump
12:09
has declared to do. But I think now it's still
12:12
undergoing what legal procedures like whether they actually, I
12:16
think philanthropy will increasingly play a role in
12:19
climate funding and also grassroot organizations doing re
12:23
granting, which is essentially getting a bigger grant by a non
12:27
profit and re granting it to indigenous communities to
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support their smaller projects. I think this is a trend in a
12:34
philanthropy space because even in Hong Kong, a lot of
12:37
philanthropic funding are quite difficult to be achieved.
12:40
You have to have a very well established track worker.
12:42
You have to have all the legal documents and write a
12:46
complicated proposal. But if we have more
12:48
organizations reach handling these grants to smaller
12:51
community organizations, that would definitely benefit the
12:55
grassroot movements and help build smaller communities to
12:58
support decolonization and loss and damage.
13:02
How does this affect your funds for that in the future on one
13:05
class after you finish your PhD? So far, Fair.
13:08
We've been a self-sustaining social enterprise for the past I
13:12
think 3-4 years. So it's really good to see that
13:15
we currently don't need to rely on any government grants or
13:18
philanthropic grads to sustain our running.
13:21
But in the past, maybe in the last year, it's been really
13:25
difficult to get secure corporate deals because we used
13:28
to do different like ESP training for companies and to
13:31
get workshops as well as corporate branding exercises
13:34
around sustainability. But now they're restricting
13:38
their budgets on the spending because of the economic
13:41
downturn. But we hope that this market
13:43
will flourish in the next couple of years.
13:46
And we're also hoping to do more on the intersection of digital
13:50
technologies like AI and VR, on climate education, because we
13:56
see a lot of digitalization in the F tech space.
14:00
And potentially we could also do some hybrid format of digital
14:04
and in person experiences. In the past, there's been a
14:08
surge of cloud tourism during COVID when people weren't able
14:11
to travel abroad. We can bring experiences, the
14:15
nature inspirations from nature from Hong Kong to the rest of
14:17
the world. I think that's also an angle
14:20
that we're hoping to address. Another big for guess, it's
14:23
probably like on gender equality and women at per, we know that a
14:27
lot of girls or women lack climate education and due to low
14:32
education level, they may not be able to unleash their through
14:35
entrepreneurship. So in recent years we've also
14:38
been doing more capacity building exercises for different
14:40
communities, marginalized groups, nonprofits and
14:44
channeling more funds from the corporate earnings into our more
14:48
charitable initiatives. So I think it's a good way to
14:50
sort of redistribute resources in the society to those who are
14:54
most in need and most vulnerable under the climate crisis.
14:57
Thank you for sharing that and it sounds like you're absolutely
14:59
doing incredible. When I say needed work, I'm so
15:02
happy to hear about for the past few years there has been called
15:05
a self-sustaining social enterprise.
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I think that's a very critical milestone for best businesses
15:10
and for most enterprises. Congratulations on doing that.
15:12
All the while I was, you know, working in an essay study.
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How about soon Princeton? How has it been running the
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social enterprise for the past 10 years whilst selling
15:23
academically? That's a great question and I
15:26
want to start back to you because you've also been doing
15:30
this amazing sort of I think for me, time management is critical.
15:35
I've been trying to balance like different commitments and roles
15:40
and responsibilities and I think it's really about spending your
15:44
energy and where's most needed. Although I'm very much a
15:47
profession is like growing up, I remember correcting my cursive
15:51
writing like writing it again and again to get the perfect
15:54
version. But as I started to grow older,
15:57
I realized that it's important to divert your energy and
16:01
achieve an optimal level of commitment and energy at
16:03
different projects and don't structure for that last mile.
16:08
If something's not working, take a pause and work on another
16:12
project first. That enabled me to balance
16:15
different priorities at different stages of life.
16:17
And I'm really thankful to my Co founders.
16:19
Well at Fed as he's been doing his PhD as well, but in Hong
16:23
Kong. So we kind of like fill each
16:26
under gaps. I'm now focusing on fundraising
16:29
because I'm not fully in Hong Kong the whole year, but I still
16:32
have some established business connections and sustainability
16:35
network. A few months ago in June, we
16:38
actually did a sustainability networking, a meet up session
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organized with another two Hong Kong big startups in New York.
16:45
We were able. To connect with the US.
16:47
Market understanding needs and also exchange knowledge on how
16:51
to run sustainability education businesses.
16:54
So I think these kind of Co creation and collaboration is
16:57
really good at a budding stage offered an enterprise.
17:02
Although at the moment we don't have plans to expand to the US
17:05
per SE, it's still good to form these networks and connections
17:09
and see how people are doing things differently in different
17:12
markets that can inspire us at our work and look at the next
17:16
stage of development. So I'm really grateful for all
17:19
the experiences and the opportunities that I get through
17:22
studying abroad and really integrating these into our own
17:27
cooperation, operation and fundraising.
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Looking back on your journey is quite hard.
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For the past decade, what are some of the key lessons that
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you've already learned that you want to share with future
17:38
budding social entrepreneurs? One of the key lessons is
17:42
definitely the importance of building a team.
17:44
I think nothing would have been achieved without our team's
17:48
commitment, effort and passion. But over the years, honestly,
17:52
there has been a lot of ups and downs.
17:54
There were times when we had team members leaving.
17:57
We also had a big pool of volunteers and it was really
18:00
difficult to engage some of them because some of them were still
18:03
in university, they were interning with us.
18:05
I think that kind of retainment is very important.
18:08
And one of the ways that we did it was by having like individual
18:13
conversation and check in dialogues with each other team
18:16
members to understand how our mission can be aligned with a
18:19
personal mission. Because this is the only way
18:21
that we can nurture their personal growth and development.
18:24
At the same time, ensure that their skills that can be
18:28
contributed to the pros and success of the social
18:31
enterprise. And sometimes it's not exactly
18:34
aligned. So we need to keep fine tuning
18:37
to find that right match and to continue on.
18:40
Every year we recruit around 8 to 10 interns and these interns
18:44
consist of high school students as well as undergrad college
18:47
students. In the past, we used to adopt
18:49
this model where the interns would just do general tasks.
18:52
But one year we started dividing them into different departments.
18:55
So some of them were working on policy efficacy and research,
18:58
some of them are specifically working on marketing and some of
19:01
them on activity like implementation and project
19:05
management. But then said it may not be the
19:09
best way for them to acquire different skill sets because
19:11
those interns who are staying in the social media function, they
19:15
were just creating like social media posts one after another
19:18
and it started to get boring in the middle of it.
19:21
The next year, we learned from this lesson and we started to
19:24
allow interns to switch departments.
19:26
So we had them like exchange roles in the middle of the
19:29
internship. And it turned out really great
19:31
because they were able to acquire that interdisciplinary
19:33
mindset. And skills that.
19:35
They're really helpful in changing the future career
19:38
choices as well. Some of them stayed with us for
19:40
a couple more years as a volunteer.
19:42
Yeah. So I think it's important to be
19:43
flexible and agile so that we can keep finding the right fit
19:47
for everyone and also giving everyone a chance to develop a
19:50
new kind of skills instead of just focusing on holding their
19:55
best existing. Skills remember for another of
19:58
university internships and Hassan I thought was over 10 and
20:01
12 weeks corporate internship if they could rotate across
20:04
different functions. This is a great way to get to
20:06
know different functions of a company.
20:08
I've been defined that areas that they shine in that they
20:10
didn't realize, but also I think the.
20:13
And start looking back is actually an appreciation for the
20:15
work dividable functions, rumors.
20:17
I think sometimes in large appropriations or maybe in the
20:20
world in general, if people are quite stuck or fixated in doing
20:23
something within their own department for a long time, I
20:26
think it can be easy to be perspective of the importance of
20:30
other departments in that organization as well.
20:32
Yeah, also the big picture thinking.
20:34
Yes, for sure. Definitely with all of the
20:37
functions that you mentioned, which are the ones that you most
20:41
enjoy doing the self person view?
20:43
I feel like I actually enjoy doing strategy development a
20:48
lot. For instance, for the Disney
20:50
project, came up with the idea and discussed with our senior
20:53
management to get the approval and buy in down to the
20:57
implementation details. Our team actually worked really
21:00
hard in it and I'm not a particularly detailed minded
21:03
person. So they actually caught me up a
21:06
lot on missing out like different executable details and
21:10
getting me more grounded. So I think in a team, like back
21:13
to your original question, it's important to have someone who
21:16
dreams make just think of crazy ideas and another person doing
21:20
more execution and fine tuning of details to get things really
21:24
done and executed in a smooth way.
21:27
So I think I'm more of like the big picture person.
21:29
Well, I really need someone to help me working out the details
21:32
and implementing a project. But I also really enjoy party
21:35
FRC because I think at the end of the day, we we need a robust
21:39
policy framework to ensure that you actually policies kind of
21:43
help guide corporate decisions and drives non profit funding,
21:47
the directions of philanthropy. So doing that, it's kind of like
21:50
moving from here like a grass organization all the way up,
21:54
like it's a way how we gain access to government officials.
21:57
I remember at the start, that was when I first got into policy
22:01
and focusy because there is a recognized NGO environmental
22:05
group in Hong Kong. So we started getting invited to
22:08
policy consultation dialogues by the county chief executive.
22:12
We got the opportunity to come in a policy address budget
22:15
allocation initiatives around sustainable tourism and climate
22:20
policy. It really allowed us to gain
22:23
insight into how policy decisions are being made and
22:26
what we can do as an individual organization to help push for
22:30
it. One interesting insight that
22:33
I've gained across the years is that sometimes we keep asking
22:36
the government to do something, but it seems that they're very
22:39
reluctant to do so. And I remember one time talking
22:42
to a policy official in the Environment Bureau.
22:46
We're asking them why can't we have compulsory climate
22:49
education in the syllabus? It's so important and I guess we
22:52
all know how important it is. And they were saying that it was
22:55
difficult for the Environment Bureau to convince the Education
22:58
Bureau because there isn't a public demand.
23:01
Parents are not asking schools to provide climate education to
23:04
their children. So essentially they were
23:07
actually asking us as green groups or environmental groups
23:11
to develop syllabus and to trial these cases in civil society.
23:16
And once we have a good case study, we can patient to the
23:19
government again so that we can convince the Education Bureau
23:23
that there's actually a need. Schools are asking for fun
23:26
education, but they need the policy framework to make it
23:29
happen. So that's what we've been
23:31
building in the past few years, really trying to develop
23:34
syllabus and proving that these are successful.
23:37
We've been collecting a lot of chart workers and testimonials
23:40
from people participating in our sustainability leadership
23:44
programs, which are usually a week long immersive
23:48
sustainability tourism experience where students would
23:51
go to different. Spots in hot cloud.
23:53
Rural and urban to indigenous villages about their needs
23:57
around free living, not about their perspectives on tourism
24:01
development. And then using these insights to
24:04
develop their eco entrepreneurial idea, to pitch
24:08
it to the school, to the society.
24:10
So I think these are good cases that we're gradually building
24:14
more and more, not just us as an individual entity, but we also
24:17
collaborate with all the other team groups like Bro Wildlife
24:21
Fund, WWF, as well as like Ocean Park Foundation and doing these
24:25
building these smart case studies so that we can gather
24:29
the efforts of the civil society to make tangible policy changes
24:32
upstream. What I realized was you were
24:36
talking is actually how similar what?
24:37
You have been doing. Isn't awake to myself building
24:41
ourselves up and trying to push new technology into the market.
24:45
What you described about Department of Education and the
24:48
development of environment and habits like attention of a
24:51
chicken and egg situation of their needing to be parent
24:54
demand for curriculum change in order to justify the update of
24:58
this curriculum. It's just pretty similar to an
25:01
art company having not just to speak to our direct customers,
25:04
but also their customers. Then we get that push and pull.
25:07
So like a two point approach to make sure of that change
25:09
actually happens with IT technology in my case or in the
25:12
correct ones in your case as the fellow founder.
25:16
Do you ever get frustrated at the pace of change?
25:21
Totally. I always get very frustrated
25:23
with the pace of change. I also feel at some point that
25:26
in the climate space is especially pessimistic because
25:30
we're seeing these extreme weather events hitting hot to
25:33
the most vulnerable communities. We saw the major flooding in
25:36
Pakistan wiping out 1/3 of their settlements.
25:40
There are Pacific island countries facing sea level rise
25:43
and in addition of the communities.
25:44
But we're still sitting in air conditioned rooms.
25:47
And in these climate dialogues and conferences, just keep
25:50
talking and make verbal commitments without substantial
25:54
changes on the ground. And people who are most
25:56
vulnerable remains most affected and most vulnerable without any
26:01
helpful solution in their situation.
26:04
This kind of climate injustice really bothers me and sometimes
26:09
I feel quite powerless in front of it.
26:12
And I also felt that, well, Hong Kong is quite privileged as a
26:15
city. Like it starts to a point of us
26:18
doing these awareness raising exercises here.
26:21
And how do we connect the hookah community with the rest of the
26:24
world and contribute our power to more systemic changes and
26:28
transformations? I think it's a permanent
26:31
struggle that we will have to live with.
26:33
The world is still facing rising temperatures.
26:37
Their worst case scenario seems to be playing out.
26:40
What gives me hope is the communities that are still
26:43
fighting on the ground. As long as we persist in our
26:46
movement, we are able to start from something small and
26:50
gradually progress upward to the levers or like a higher leverage
26:54
.1. Full density is that every
26:56
fraction of degree is 1,000,000. Or like dabs in the millions of
27:00
life state. Maybe we're not able to keep
27:02
temperature rise within 1.5°C as Paris agreements dated or even
27:06
2°C but preventing it from rising to 3° or like 3.1° like
27:12
every fracture of degree matters.
27:14
And I think a lot of us are also switching gears towards
27:17
adaptation because we know that now, like, of course it's
27:21
important to work with mitigation, but add tuition is
27:23
equally important because in 10 years time, there will be so
27:26
many more climate disasters. Have we built a more resilient
27:30
world so that we can future proof our society and we can
27:33
protect vulnerable communities in the future?
27:36
That is also why I switched my research from mitigation to
27:40
adaptation and Oxford. I was actually working on energy
27:43
and decarbonization policies, looking at how complex systems
27:47
sensitive intervention points can reduce energy sector
27:50
emissions in Hong Kong and Beijing.
27:52
It was very interesting as a research topic and I also think
27:56
it created some level of change in the narratives around cost
27:59
benefit analysis. We need to walk further into
28:01
feedback loops and accelerating the speed of change.
28:06
A lot of research historically has been very focused on
28:09
mitigation but not as much research efforts have gone into
28:13
adaptation yet, like finding the most cost effective solutions to
28:17
prevent disaster impact and reduce the risk of disasters.
28:20
That's why for my PhD, I really hope to work in the
28:23
intersection, finding out nature based and nature and spy
28:27
solutions like mangroves and wetland restoration to support
28:31
communities that don't have the money to build the believe
28:34
dollar likes or flood walls, floodgates to protect their
28:38
communities and to support adaptation initiatives.
28:42
That's really important. Work and I love how in your life
28:45
overall, you're shooting towards the investigation part by laying
28:49
lots of small bricks in a way. And I say they're looking at the
28:52
tragedies beyond that, only driving forwards research in
28:55
that area. Nasty.
28:56
When you look back at your time in Hong Kong, in Oxford and in
29:02
the US, either studying or the intensity or trying to build
29:06
social initiatives or for example, contributing to the
29:09
World Economic Forum Global Shakers project.
29:11
What are some personal skills that you felt that you've had to
29:14
develop in yourself in order to keep on delivering the best that
29:17
you can to those different initiatives?
29:20
In terms of skills, I think one of the most important skills
29:23
that are acquired have been making connections and being
29:28
audacious with the connections. I've met a lot of people who
29:33
talk about the importance of networking flatterally and maybe
29:38
upwards, but I think it's equally important to maintain
29:41
the connections. I think in the past I used to,
29:43
you know, keep connecting with different people on LinkedIn,
29:46
but rarely really following up or trying to seek opportunities
29:50
or seek partnerships. But over the years, as I've been
29:53
at the climate space for long enough, I've realized how
29:56
important it is to find out own spaces and find out
30:00
opportunities or create new ones.
30:02
For example, this time when I came to London, initially it was
30:05
just more like physics friends and some of my 4 Oxford
30:08
classmates like ourselves. But I reached out to and impact
30:12
investing startup that I've worked with during my after
30:15
times, maybe like five years ago, I reached out to the team
30:19
and looked for like collaborative opportunities
30:22
actually like just came from their office on a new project,
30:25
like a small like solid leadership piece about investing
30:29
in nature and how to drive more sustainable finance capital into
30:33
nature based solutions. So I think whenever you're brief
30:37
enough to reach out, I feel like a lot of more doors open.
30:41
And always remember that when one door closes and another
30:44
opens. I was applying for actually like
30:48
Stanford and Princeton PhD. But yeah, something happened and
30:52
I didn't end up going to Stanford.
30:54
And at that time, I was actually really sad and really stressed
30:58
because I really wanted to go to Stanford to leverage their like
31:03
ecosystems and I wanted to learn more about climate tech and the
31:06
PC space. And at Princeton, I felt that it
31:09
was a more academic institution. So maybe it limited my
31:11
opportunity to access these networks.
31:14
But then I guess like looking back, it's not a decision to be
31:18
regretted because Princeton still have really good network
31:21
and the proximity to New York allowed me to be connected with
31:25
the space there. Even like while I was
31:27
contributing for tonight, Hennessy Scholarship at Sanford
31:30
actually made a good network there so I could still be
31:33
connected with the fellow scholarship recipients or other
31:37
scholarship finalists. So I think like making use of
31:40
these, I would call it residual networks.
31:42
They may not be very immediate, may not be finding immediate
31:45
classmates or circle, but these people who maybe have helped you
31:49
are supporting you along the way.
31:50
If you're able to maintain a connection or to reach out, I
31:54
think there's always something that will reap out of it.
31:56
And there are these like sort of dependency encountering that
31:59
actually. Blossoms to something bigger for
32:01
sure. I really love having you quite
32:04
return residual networks. It's so lovely and it's true,
32:07
you know, it's just people that you come across.
32:09
Maybe that was a good feeling when you did meet them that
32:11
first time. And then if you just keep in
32:13
touch and every now and then, and I think opportunity comes
32:17
from very unexpected places and I think a business and
32:20
government and a policy, that's always the case.
32:22
Yeah, I think one of the coolest experiences I had was at COP 29
32:27
in Azerbaijan. I was tasked to film a
32:29
documentary for RTHK Radio Television Hong Kong called
32:33
Climate Insight. So essentially we're documenting
32:35
stories in COP 29 about negotiations related to the
32:39
China delegation, as well as the Green Baltimore Initiative
32:43
happening between China and Azerbaijan.
32:45
We had a previous series in Dubai, COP 28 and also featuring
32:50
climate attitude stories in Fiji.
32:52
And actually the Fiji series came out of an internship that I
32:55
did back during my officer time at WWF in Singapore.
32:59
It was a remote sustainable finance internship, but that
33:02
former internship supervisor actually moved to Fiji, working
33:06
at the UN Development Program in Suva.
33:09
So I reached out to him asking, oh, we really want to do a
33:12
documentary in Fiji because we want to showcase the Islanders
33:16
and people who are facing the frontline climate crisis.
33:19
How do they feel sea level rats? How are they protecting the
33:21
villages and indigenous cultures and communities?
33:24
And it worked out just because of this, like internship boss,
33:27
I've never met in person, only met online over like 2 months of
33:31
internship. We moved to Fiji and then we met
33:33
in Fiji in person. So I think that was super
33:36
interesting. And again, the same in
33:38
Azerbaijan. I met this person while queuing
33:41
up for a cup of coffee at one of the pavilion.
33:44
And I started talking to this person in front of me and he
33:47
happens to be one of the coordinators in Bhutan.
33:50
And he actually lined up an interview with the Prime
33:53
Minister of Bhutan for me during the cup the next day.
33:57
So we were able to get this high level policy figure to speak on
34:01
our program to the Hong Kong audience about the connections
34:04
between Bhutan and potentially Hong Kong.
34:06
Because Bhutan is a carbon negative country.
34:09
They have this network called the G0 countries, which are
34:13
essentially like countries that have already achieved carbon
34:16
neutrality and carbon negativity.
34:19
And they were thinking a lot of on the lines of creating like
34:23
forest carbon credits and selling it to other nations who
34:27
are still very common intensive like Hong Kong or the US.
34:31
So I think these are like really chances that appear at nowhere,
34:36
but if you're able to make good use of it, I think it really
34:39
benefits your career and help you navigate this complex and
34:43
interconnected world. How do you?
34:45
Stay so composed when you're speaking with all leaders or
34:48
when you're, you know, representing a really important
34:50
and meaningful initiative at places such as Cop.
34:54
Well, I guess just like you, I feel like you're so calm and
34:57
composed. Podcast series.
34:59
I feel like I'm like a duck in water.
35:02
Like, OK from the top, but then under the water I'm, you know,
35:05
sometimes frantically. Yeah.
35:08
And I mean, the same for me, actually, during my TEDx talk in
35:12
Hong Kong two years ago. I'm climber Sillian.
35:15
We had to face the audience like, over.
35:17
That's an audience in the theater.
35:19
And I was really nervous on a stage.
35:21
I didn't expect it because I've practiced this group maybe like
35:25
100 times. But then I remember like after
35:28
speaking the first line, my mind went completely blank and I
35:31
forgot the rest of my script. And we also didn't have a
35:34
teleprompter. I was about to cry, just my
35:37
mother was on a first row and she actually saw my like, tears
35:41
bubbling like just yeah in in my eyes.
35:44
But then all of a sudden the lights came back and I continued
35:47
talking like and very thankfully, the team cut out my
35:52
blank moments on stage. The state fright part in the
35:55
final YouTube video. So it ended up looking good.
35:59
But yeah, I think, I mean, that's probably a metaphor for
36:02
the rest of our lives. A lot of times we do encounter
36:05
difficulties, but we become so filtered on social media.
36:10
So everyone only sees the successful sides.
36:12
People see that YouTube video and my speech went smoothly, but
36:17
the fact is it was actually a lot of stuttering.
36:20
It was just cut out. This is also what I feel in
36:22
recent years when social media became more central to our daily
36:25
lives. I think we tend to believe that
36:27
everyone's life is perfect, but actually everyone has their own
36:31
struggles that we're not able to see in the glamour social media
36:35
world. Sometimes I also feel guilty for
36:39
sort of perpetuating that narrative that everything is
36:42
perfect. So I tried like sharing a lot of
36:45
vulnerable stories and stories of failures.
36:48
And I realized that I actually resonated a lot better than just
36:51
showing a perfect selves. But equally, like sometimes you
36:55
just need to share some content for business purposes, like
36:59
you're promoting an event. It has to be positive, but I
37:02
think it's still very nuanced. I'm still trying to find a way
37:05
to be better at sharing vulnerabilities and be better at
37:09
like just sharing challenges. Time to come around with other
37:13
people. And I think this podcast is a
37:15
great outlet for us to discuss more intimate issues like mental
37:18
health and how does 1 become more resilient mentally and to
37:23
overcome. The charges of life.
37:25
Thank you for sharing that story about the MSNS stage.
37:29
I think you sharing that said EMS podcast will really inspire
37:32
a lot of business, especially those who might.
37:35
In their own heads. Think that's not a good public
37:37
speaker, but I think in the end, so we'll just go forward and if
37:41
a challenge comes up, just believe that you know you will
37:43
be able to overcome that. Football might be ending on that
37:46
front. You know, point, a point that
37:48
you mentioned just now. What do you think is the biggest
37:52
failure that you have had to date and what you learn from
37:55
that? I think maybe if you asked me a
37:59
year ago, I would have said not getting into Stanford, what's my
38:03
biggest failure. Reflecting on that, I think a
38:06
more personal maybe failure, not really failure, but like I think
38:13
misplace of priority was this decision, this right decision to
38:17
pursue a PhD in the US without substantial planning around my
38:24
personal relationships and networks.
38:28
For one, like I'm an only child and I already elected this two
38:32
year masters in Oxford. And I think I didn't communicate
38:35
so early with my parents before applying for the PhDs.
38:38
And then I literally just told them, oh, I got this offer, I'm
38:42
going to the US for five years and just leaving home all of a
38:45
sudden. I think that wasn't a good
38:48
decision. It could have been more well
38:50
planned. And I did make a lot of
38:52
sacrifices in terms of like family time and my relationships
38:56
and communities in Hong Kong. And I think in terms of my
38:59
social enterprise, it also hit a little bit because I was
39:03
carrying a lot of the networks and external relations and me
39:07
sort of suddenly exiting the scene did affect our businesses.
39:11
So I think, I guess it's still an ongoing process.
39:14
So I wouldn't call it like a retrospective failure, but maybe
39:18
an ongoing failure or an ongoing challenge that I need to tackle.
39:22
How do I better manage these relations and make an optimal
39:26
decision between pursuing goals or being ambitious about
39:32
something versus just mentally grounding myself and dedicating
39:38
time to people that care and love?
39:40
I think I did sacrifice a lot of maybe friendships and personal
39:44
relationships along the way. I've been away a lot and maybe
39:48
not there for my friends important moments.
39:51
I remember missing one of my closest friends weddings.
39:54
Initially she invited me as her bridesmaid but I couldn't make
39:57
it the end. So she had to make like
39:59
immediate adjustments. Maybe I would I would have
40:02
chosen differently if I were to choose again because some things
40:06
that are lost cannot be retrieved.
40:08
But I feel like money you can still earn back or some of the
40:12
work or some of the say like fame or like these very
40:16
superficial like accolades that were trying to claim.
40:20
Are so transient and I started to lose sight of the true
40:24
meaning of happiness like in some parts of my life and in the
40:28
past few years I think it's been a lot of these like external
40:32
factors may grant me very short term happiness or joy but I
40:36
think relationships are So what gives me persistent joy of like
40:40
having a community to count on having intimate friend circles.
40:44
Yeah. So I think this is one thing
40:45
that I kind of regret along the way, and I hope that I'll be
40:48
able to do better, like I share with friends and being there for
40:52
them, but they need it the most. I love what you said just and I
40:55
also say thank you because I guess we're all for some age.
40:58
I think what you described that is something that a lot of
41:02
people go through in their 20s for women as well, because, you
41:06
know, women haven't worked for that long.
41:08
And I think there are still certain social biases towards
41:10
what women should or shouldn't be doing.
41:12
I think it can be quite challenging to be a woman who is
41:14
just focusing on her career. I'm really glad that you
41:16
mentioned notice the sacrifice of relationships.
41:19
I think I've also shared a similar, I guess, mental
41:22
struggle to what I've learned is that again, similar to you, the
41:27
conclusion is relationships are so important.
41:29
And I'm so grateful to all the family and friends who have
41:32
allowed me to come in and out of their lives and just always
41:35
feedback what I do want to speak to them.
41:38
And I've also learned actually, but and then friendships is
41:41
about the quality, not the quantity.
41:43
Yeah, yeah, which is so. Yeah, I guess just so different
41:46
to when from yet written my in my early 20s when, you know, I
41:49
was just super interested to get to know a lot of people there
41:52
now actually realize hang on, it's actually who to actually
41:56
enjoy spending time with that man from.
41:58
And it's a small handful of people.
42:00
Yeah, totally. Maybe I'm glad rascinated so
42:03
much. Yeah.
42:04
So like everyone our age for like.
42:07
In our shoes makes me physics help our struggles.
42:10
You are quite a positive visible public figure.
42:15
What is 1 misconception that you think people could have of you?
42:20
That's an excellent question. I think one thing is definitely
42:24
my social persona. On my channels like LinkedIn,
42:28
Instagram, I tend to portray this sustainability image like a
42:33
very consistent saying, talking everything about climate and
42:37
sustainability. And I think some people who have
42:40
never met me before would think that I only talked about
42:43
sustainability. They will only see that persona,
42:46
but they don't know the fact that I'm creating a certain
42:49
persona because of business needs, because I need to
42:52
fundraise, because I need to, you know, like a more research
42:55
collaboration, have opportunities.
42:56
That's why I'm sharing my work. But that's not the entirety of
43:00
me. And a lot of people would just
43:02
assume that I'm this particular like very sustainable person and
43:06
they wouldn't talk to me if they are not fully aligned with the
43:10
agenda or they would be worried to reach out to me as a friend.
43:14
So I think this has perfected a lot of people from getting to
43:17
know me on a deeper level. They would have a lot of
43:20
assumptions on who I am. And also most recently, I think
43:23
I also carried this baggage of being an environmental advocate
43:27
or a climate advocate. Last year I did ATV interview at
43:31
Hong Kong. I talked about my journey, like
43:34
my social enterprise and also what were you doing on reducing
43:37
carbon emissions and what everyone can do on their
43:40
different levels after you see, you know, like consuming less
43:44
meat. And sometimes, you know, I'm
43:46
like flying less because flying is carbon intensive.
43:50
And that line got quoted massively on, on online forms.
43:55
And I got a lot of attacks by people like criticizing my old
43:59
travelling behavior because obviously I study in the US and
44:03
I travel between Hong Kong and the US, which I do feel very
44:06
guilty of it. But even with the offsets, but I
44:11
do think that environmental field is quite particularly in
44:15
the way that if you champion something people expect you to
44:18
live up to that you expect you to lift the most organic life
44:23
and, you know, be a complete vegan, don't fly at all and
44:27
don't change faults. You know, like people have all
44:29
these expectations on the perfect environmentalist.
44:32
And I think this is also the very notion that prefer to a lot
44:35
of people into environmentalism because they have this puritan
44:39
expectation. If you need to be an
44:41
environmentalist, the bar is this high and if you're not
44:44
there, you're not environmentalist enough.
44:46
I think the skill trapping is really damaging the movement
44:50
because everyone has your own needs and has their own ways of
44:55
pursuing environmentalism. Like maybe some people they have
44:58
cultural or behavioral restrictions and they cannot
45:01
practice a fully vegan diet. Some people have families and
45:06
elsewhere they might be diaspora and they cannot not travel to
45:11
meet their family. So I think everyone has these
45:14
different personal circumstances that prevent us from being a
45:17
very perfect environmentalist. Yeah.
45:21
So I think this is one thing that people have this
45:23
misconception around true environmentalists and what it
45:26
means to care for the environment.
45:29
Well, I so now like I wouldn't go trump anyone for the
45:32
behavior. Of course, like there are bigger
45:35
systemic change we should all pursue and I think we should all
45:38
try within our capabilities and abilities to be as friendly to
45:43
the environment as possible. I mean, whenever I buy products,
45:47
I try to look for a second hand items and cruelty free future
45:52
cosmetics, etcetera. But at the same time which also
45:55
take into account everyone's different senses and try to be
45:59
more forgiving and pursuing the come and go of tackling systemic
46:03
changes like the fossil fuel industry and brainstorming ways
46:07
to pursue deep decolonization pathways for different sectors.
46:11
But at the same time, like being mindful and conscious of our
46:14
behaviors every like a quote that says we don't need one
46:18
perfect environmentalist, but we need 8 billion of imperfect
46:22
improvementalist. So if everyone can do something
46:26
a little bit better, we're competing against ourselves like
46:29
maybe yesterday and having like veggie diet once a week.
46:32
And next year I can set a target of having two veggie meals a
46:36
week. That would already be an
46:38
improvement and one step towards a better fighter.
46:41
I actually didn't know about that before.
46:43
You knew what you said about how being sustainable and being
46:46
environmentalist is personal and that for only competition is
46:51
yourself and it shouldn't be a type, you know, with people kind
46:53
of made me think of going to a gym and kind of like gym
46:56
interruptors always say eyes know why else and only think
46:59
about yourself. You're not competing against
47:01
anyone else and how many wait signal if because it's your body
47:04
and it's so unique. Nasia, thank you so much for
47:07
sharing all of your experiences. I'm going to ask you for podcast
47:10
table, which is what do you think is one thing that will
47:13
allow more people to have better mental health?
47:17
One thing that can allow people to have better mental health is
47:20
stopping doom scrolling. I think in the past couple
47:23
years, like TikTok is going viral.
47:25
Everyone is just scrolling like not stop looking at other
47:29
people's lives and trying to pursue that and feeling missing
47:34
out like phone roll. And I think stopping that and
47:36
really using that time to reflect on yourself, be more
47:40
mindful. Go for a walk in nature.
47:42
Every time when I go on a hike, I'm a big hiker.
47:45
I feel that nature is so fast and human is so insignificant
47:49
and all of our struggles becomes minimal because the world is so
47:53
much bigger. There's a saying that my friend
47:56
used to say to me a lot, the sky is big enough to hold all your
47:59
tears and fears. So just look into the sky and
48:03
think of the whole world, the universe as so fast.
48:08
We don't have to focus on our old struggles that much because
48:12
when you look back at like the not perfect grade that you got
48:16
in your first grade, you don't even remember it.
48:18
I remember of struggling so much and trying to be the first in
48:22
the class and I was in elementary school.
48:24
But now, like, nothing matters, like your public stamp scores,
48:28
nothing really matters now. It's just about how you're
48:31
living your lives and how you feel every day.
48:34
Being present, being at the moment and really finding joy
48:38
and the little things in life and being appreciative and
48:40
grateful. I would recommend everyone to
48:43
keep a great format journal or a list of things that make you
48:47
happy. I recently read this article
48:50
saying that you can create a dopamine list.
48:52
Some small things that can, you know, like give you some
48:55
positive energy. Oh, I love that.
48:57
You can just like maybe 10 things.
48:59
Yeah, go for a nature walk or draw, like pick up your pen,
49:03
write a poem or like, you know, get a matcha just keep that list
49:07
and pick one thing to do when you feel really down.
49:10
And then your your wall will be like a little bit better.
49:13
Oh. So then I have to ask you,
49:14
what's the top three things on your diet best?
49:17
I literally just read this article so I don't think I have
49:20
one now. But on top of my mind I would
49:22
say any first hiking. I love organizing group hikes
49:26
with a lot of friends from different backgrounds and
49:28
interface, and I usually organize this.
49:31
I usually organize group hikes every time when I'm back in Hong
49:34
Kong, and as I did my reflections for 2024, I'm sure
49:41
to find one, one time. The single moment that I felt
49:44
the happiest, I was surprised that it wasn't, say, like
49:47
getting a Princeton offer or getting a scholarship.
49:50
It was actually the day off the hike.
49:54
It's lovely. Yeah.
49:55
I should actually do that more. And I think second thing is
49:59
probably painting. I love Chinese painting, and my
50:02
mom's learning it right now. So feet together and certain
50:06
thing, oh it may be calling a good friend and sharing my life
50:12
with them. Oh, I love that.
50:14
What about yours? Yeah, be.
50:16
I think for me it's reading, first of all.
50:19
I think even if I'm quite stressed or feeling quite
50:21
emotional or and whatever, what? Kind of book though.
50:23
Oh, fiction is a self book. Any titles book, honestly, so I
50:27
only read fiction up until I was about 18 and then somehow over
50:31
union after uni, I really got into biographies and actually
50:34
the book and resident the founder of Nike, Phil Knight,
50:37
was the one that I made just before finishing uni that
50:40
actually inspired me to go into entrepreneurship.
50:43
Oh, that's very hugely meaningful.
50:44
But I do find that, you know, even if I'm in a very
50:46
emotionally heightened state, if I read anything, I can calm
50:49
myself down. And I also really enjoy that
50:51
process. My second thing would also be
50:53
similar to you. It's just being outside in
50:55
nature. I love going for walks and I
50:56
love just being in the countryside and or being by the
50:59
ocean and being able to gaze at this really fast expanse of
51:02
space. And I find it really, really
51:04
soothing. And then my third one would be,
51:07
I think, just hanging out with a really close friend or family
51:10
member. So second and third ones are the
51:12
same. Yeah, sure.
51:15
But yeah, NASA, thank you so much for your time today.
51:17
I'll definitely have to hit you up for one of the hypes when I'm
51:19
in Hong Kong. Yeah, thank you so much for your
51:22
time and creating the space for people to speak out of their
51:25
mental health challenges and also our journey to growth.
51:29
Thank you for listening you excited for the next episode?
51:32
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