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Why Teachers Are Leaving: Points of View · Teachers Talk Radio

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We can't wait to see you there. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Points
1:20
of View show on Teachers Talk Radio here this morning.
1:23
And good morning to everybody on the panel.
1:26
Good morning. Morning. Great. Thank you.
1:29
This morning, we're going to focus, to start with, on something that hasn't
1:33
been particularly focused on in the white paper, but is nevertheless extremely
1:37
important to any reform that government tries to put forward.
1:42
And that is the level of satisfaction of both teachers and also support staff
1:48
in our schools currently.
1:50
There was a story that broke this week following a YouGov poll of 6,600 adults,
1:56
which reported that 62% of those people said that they didn't think that teaching
2:02
was an appealing career.
2:05
In fact, 30% of those people said
2:07
that they thought teaching was a very unappealing career option for them.
2:12
So given that I think that there's
2:16
got to be some serious questions about you know
2:19
the way that people perceive the profession and why
2:22
they perceive it that way and just so we're in
2:25
context before we get started properly also one in five support staff say that
2:30
they are considering leaving the profession within the next year and of course
2:34
the reasons for that might be slightly different or they might be related but
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we're going to discuss whether they are and what they are in today's show.
2:43
So I think, Liz, you wanted to start things off.
2:45
I am willing to start things off, yeah. Obviously, as someone who is still in
2:51
the classroom full-time, not a TLR holder, I feel like...
2:56
Because the purpose of my job is being in the classroom.
3:00
I can kind of understand why people might think that it's unappealing.
3:06
I think a lot of people would level criticism at us because they would say,
3:09
well, of course it's unappealing. You're complaining all the time.
3:12
Without thinking there might be a reason why we're complaining all the time
3:16
that the job actually has become unsustainable.
3:21
It would be really interesting. I don't know if there are any statistics that
3:23
exist on a comparison between responses to a question like that now and in response
3:28
to a question like that 5, 10,
3:30
15 years ago and whether the interest in the profession has declined over time.
3:37
It has changed. I've been doing it for 20 years.
3:40
It is not the same job that I came into 20 years ago.
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And if I had my time again I would
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do something else I I would and
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I think that's really sad because I think ultimately it should be
3:53
an appealing profession there's so much about
3:56
it if the if the systems
3:59
were in place to support it it would be an
4:02
amazing job and I did I loved it once and you
4:04
know what I still have days where I do love it I have
4:07
moments where I love it they call them glimmers don't they the
4:10
opposite of triggers you have glimmers and you're just like oh my
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gosh actually that was really good but they're not enough
4:17
anymore to make it appealing and I'm
4:20
an ECT mentor at the moment and my
4:23
ECT has already said I
4:27
cannot see myself doing this in 10 years time I don't think I'm going to be
4:31
able to find the energy to do it so the two in five people I don't know who
4:38
they are and why they're finding it appealing but they need to find them for
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their They're recruitment statistics, I think.
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And they need to be pitching directly to that 38% of people.
4:49
Become a teacher. Here's an application form. Let's get you in.
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But we're not going to hit the statistics, the government think, with results like that.
4:56
I've got some statistics here which I can refer to in a little while,
5:00
but I think it's about perceptions and it's about the way people feel at the
5:04
moment that probably drives most of the answers to that poll.
5:09
What do other people think? I feel like I completely agree with Liz and my situation
5:16
is slightly different because,
5:18
I don't I wouldn't if I could go back in time I wouldn't necessarily do something different,
5:24
immediately because that's how I came over here
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and that's how I'm in this country and that's my
5:30
whole life now and my whole life is here and I'm married
5:33
and I have a dog but yeah so
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there's a little bit more on the line I think in my case but
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I do so I know I never actually sit there wishing like I
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wish I could go back 20 years and make different choices but
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I think if I if I weren't an immigrant I absolutely would I wish I wish I'd
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a few years ago like as soon as I got that piece of paper that said I could
5:57
stay without my residence being tied to my job I wish I'd just I just left.
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I wish I just done something else when I was younger and a little bit more,
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a little bit less disillusioned and bitter and feeling trapped because bizarrely,
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like, I guess it's because I haven't quite hit rock bottom yet.
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I'm hovering a few inches above it.
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It the worse you feel the harder it
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is to have any get up and go
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to change it so i feel
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like you have to you know either quit while you're head ish or or wait until
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you hit the bottom until you literally have a choice i feel like that's where
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a lot of people end up it's one of those two when you get out and the rest of
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us are just kind of floating floating along and i you know,
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I've said to students, like, oh, what are you doing? What do you want to do? What do you want to do?
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And some of them are like, well, I might go into teaching. And I just look at them.
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I just look at them. I don't say anything.
7:01
Oh.
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And I'm like, you do you, babe. But, you know, do your research.
7:07
Make your choices. Godspeed. Yeah.
7:10
It's a funny one, really, because I've got a really different perspective on this from all of you.
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Firstly, because I was support staff, but I did teach in an unqualified capacity.
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I have my degree. I had every intention when I started of training as a teacher.
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I had an operation that went badly wrong. And so I didn't I didn't take on that
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that sort of I didn't apply to do teacher training within the school as a GTP
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because I was always thinking there'll be another operation.
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But over those years where I was in that situation, I started to value the job that I was doing.
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I wasn't paid anywhere near as much as the teachers, but I didn't have anywhere
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near the responsibility. I didn't have the massive class sizes.
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I had the most difficult students very often, but because we were working in
7:59
smaller groups, I got to know them.
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I got to feel they valued me. I got so much more out of it than my colleagues
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who would say, I'd love to do your job.
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I'd absolutely love to do your job because you get to build a relationship with
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the students that we just don't get to do.
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And I really valued the work that I did. And it, you know, of course, money matters.
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Of course, money matters. But I was in a situation where I could have jumped up.
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I always felt that I would have jumped up probably, maybe, I don't know,
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like 50 to 100% of the pay, I don't know, but with three, four, 500% of the workload.
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And I felt that I valued my time and what I did more than the money that would have come from that.
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So I chose not in the end to qualify. And that was as somebody who had always
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wanted to teach, but had gone into other jobs.
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You know, I joined the Navy and stuff like that.
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But I now I'll have a son who's trying to work out what he's going to do.
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He's finished his degree. He doesn't know what to do.
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And I haven't said, why don't you think about teaching? I haven't said that to him. And...
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I could, but there's something that's holding me back from saying that.
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And I think in my role, everybody came to me.
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Everyone came to me to talk about what a nightmare day they'd had.
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I'm sure everyone went to everyone else, but I heard, because my classroom also
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happened to have the kettle in it.
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Do you see what I mean? So I was always there and there was always,
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and so I heard how hard it was day after day.
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People who couldn't go to family weddings because it was on a weekday,
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a funeral, you know, of an uncle who had stepped in when her dad had died and
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become the father figure.
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Nope, not a close enough relative. You can't go. And people think about the
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holidays and they say, what the hell are teachers moaning for?
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They get all this time off.
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And I think they just don't realise. I've had colleagues whose boiler has broken
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down, say this week, and I've had to wait to the Easter holidays before they
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can have it repaired. And I've had to go without heating because they need someone
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in the house because they've got dogs or Do you get what I mean?
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It's not as wonderful as everyone thinks, but it is.
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I mean, the satisfaction that can come from those interactions with students,
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I really, really miss it.
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Every day there's something when I think about what I would have been doing,
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I think I did enjoy it. I really did enjoy it, but I enjoyed what I did.
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I don't know how I'd have felt if I'd ever gone on qualified and become a fully
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qualified teacher with all that expectation.
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What do you think joe i'm listening
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as everybody's talking and i'm thinking about all sorts
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of different things that i've heard maybe in the last two or three years that
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i haven't heard i think liz you were talking about ects and sort of how they're
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thinking about their energy levels and whether they can do that long term and
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i think that the job needs to change in order to,
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accommodate the attitudes of the people who are entering the job now.
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I've been doing this job over 25 years and it's always been kind of it's a vocation
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therefore that excuse really that you have to put up with the long hours,
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the not being able to get your boiler repaired,
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the how can you take time off because I've got cats you know if one of them's
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not very well and I want to take them to the vet in an emergency situation that
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guilt that you end up feeling and all of those things.
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I actually think the younger generation of teachers are less willing to put
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up with that and that they are less willing to.
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Shove aside normal life to spend
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the longer and longer and longer hours and I
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think that it's incumbent on people like
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me in my position in the school
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to make sure that they're not criticized for that because
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actually they have the right idea and it
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isn't I've heard you know mentioned in
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various different settings and contexts that young
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people or they just don't want to work hard anymore and
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i think that does sometimes get applied to younger teachers
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as well or they just they just don't want to spend four hours
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marking as though somehow any of
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us should want to spend four hours marking
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they've got healthy boundaries and that
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actually the the younger generation of teachers
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are better at setting boundaries
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than than maybe us as older hands have
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sort of allowed for them that maybe
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it would be more appealing if those boundaries
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were there and that 1265 was an actual genuine expectation and that was a cutoff
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that was something that said you know enough's enough but I also think that
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trying to find that balance between what is 1265,
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what you're paid for, and then whatever the glimmers, I guess,
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Liz, you were talking about, about that sense of what brings us positive.
13:04
Are based often on goodwill aren't they my my best
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moments with kids and time and
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staff have been on school trips they've been the out
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of hours activities they've been the Christmas showcases
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the whole school performance the whatever it is and
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that actually those are the things that make
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teaching appealing but they're the things that we often do
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in our own time so to speak in
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that extra time and that that should be part
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of everything that's built in it's a hard job
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but it's a really rewarding job but I
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absolutely do think that boundaries are becoming
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increasingly more important to the people who join
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the profession and those of us who who've lingered in it for a while now setting
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them is hard but sticking to them is important well look thank you for that
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Just to say as well, thanks everybody who's tuning in to us live this morning.
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And obviously like the video and subscribe to us, of course, as well.
15:23
It might be worth just throwing in a bit on the evidence base at this stage.
15:27
So, I mean, there are several issues at play here and don't forget the angle
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of support stuff as well.
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But in terms of teacher recruitment, Now, you might be surprised by this,
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but teacher recruitment is up 11% this year.
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We're talking about initial teacher training. So in actual fact,
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the government is now in a position where 99% of the recruitment target has been achieved.
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And this is the first time that's happened in many years. I mean,
15:56
actually, I say that there was one blip in 2021-22, just after the pandemic, for obvious reasons.
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But apart from that, government hadn't actually hit the recruitment target since, I think, about 2013.
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So actually, in terms of recruitment, things are much better,
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although there's a big difference between primary recruitment and secondary.
16:20
So I think the latest data is that primary recruitment for initial teacher training
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is about 126% of the target.
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So there they're over recruiting. They're doing pretty well primary wise.
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Secondary, however, is 88%, which is quite a bit up on the year before.
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I think that was 61%, but he's nevertheless still well short of the target for
16:44
the year. And if you drill down even further, of course, it depends on the subjects
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that you are talking about at secondary level as to whether recruitment is going well or not.
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I was just looking into it and found out that in music, art,
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D&T, English, geography, maths, history, PE...
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Yeah, all have hit their target or exceeded their target. But in the other subjects, not so much so.
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And in business, that's the lowest of all.
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So, you know, you can make of that what you will. So recruitment-wise, for young people,
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at least it seems as though when they have not come into the profession,
17:22
they are wanting to come back into the profession in numbers that we haven't
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seen for a few years. Why do people think that might be?
17:29
The bursaries? Yeah.
17:32
And and the general cost of living and the general
17:35
struggles economically socially right now people look for
17:38
comfortable cushy secure jobs
17:41
that are going to get them a regular paycheck things that are reliable they
17:44
know there's always going to be a job available somewhere that they can possibly
17:48
travel with maybe travel somewhere else with it's a it's a reliable job isn't
17:52
it once you have that qualification you can go and teach anywhere it is it's
17:56
incredibly useful and to me that's one of the things that's still beneficial about it.
18:01
Like if you have a teaching qualification, you can literally go anywhere.
18:05
You can find a school anywhere in the world.
18:08
There will be some school that will be interested in interviewing you for a
18:10
position. It's, there's so many opportunities available globally.
18:15
And even within this country, you know, we will always need teachers.
18:19
It's that old phrase, well, you can always go into teaching.
18:21
You can always be a teacher. Like there's an element of truth to that.
18:23
And I think when people are struggling to pay their heating bill,
18:27
a secure job, almost guaranteed employment in some subjects is incredibly appealing.
18:34
So yes, it's positive for us because we need more teachers, but I don't think it's necessarily...
18:41
I don't think it's a positive reflection of the state of society right now, if I'm honest.
18:47
No, but also, when you think about it, if somebody goes into teaching for those
18:54
reasons, they're not going into teaching because they want to teach,
18:57
because they want to be teachers.
18:59
They're looking around and saying, well, I've got a degree.
19:02
And it does sometimes feel as though it's a bit of a default option,
19:07
something that people roll into when they've explored everything else,
19:10
because you can get into it once you've got your degree, you do your training.
19:16
And I think sometimes that's some of the dissatisfaction that perhaps it's.
19:21
You know, it's harder than people expect. They've gone into it because of the
19:26
steady job, the steady income.
19:28
There are promotion opportunities. Like you say, you can move around with it. So it's a good job.
19:34
But when they get into it, I think so many people, so many people end up wondering
19:40
what they've got themselves into.
19:42
I see all the GTPs because they were in the office behind my classroom.
19:46
So every year, the GTPs who came through us, you know,
19:49
and I saw that eagerness at the start turn
19:53
into exhaustion towards the end of that first year and
19:56
actually that was hugely off-putting for me seeing it
19:59
because I thought god I want to go through that I'm just
20:02
going to throw in here that comes back a little bit to
20:05
what we were talking about earlier but I look back at my
20:08
20s and just think I wasted
20:12
a lot of my life if I'm honest you know
20:15
i came in i had one year
20:18
out after uni i went straight in and the way i sort
20:21
of approached was a bit like what
20:24
you were saying joe in terms of the vocation thing that's
20:27
how i approached it and i also took it incredibly seriously
20:30
probably too seriously and then
20:33
what i ended up doing was what was just working
20:36
all the all the hours and thinking that so much
20:40
mattered and it's not that none of it mattered and actually
20:43
you know it gave me a lot of experience
20:46
as a teacher but all i'm saying is you
20:49
know i think back now and i'm like my 20s it's
20:52
just it just i wasted so much of my 20s just just like doing like you know you
20:57
mentioned the marking you know it's sort of in the last five years maybe maybe
21:02
maybe five seven eight years where where researchers almost said well,
21:07
you know, the value of written marking.
21:09
Maybe isn't as, you know, that was like the be all and end all,
21:12
wasn't it? You know, and I remember just.
21:16
Doing that so much and just, I don't know, even on the lesson.
21:20
I mean, to be fair, that's probably the one area where I haven't changed over
21:24
the 18, 19 years is lesson planning.
21:27
I'm probably still doing the same amount of thinking behind lessons as I was
21:35
maybe at the beginning, although obviously you've got more resources and stuff like that.
21:38
I mean, the hours I spent on resources was insane. point i'm
21:42
making is i think the thing about boundaries is i'm
21:47
total in agreement with you i think it's a good thing i
21:51
think that it shouldn't be
21:53
seen negative when people say no and i
21:56
do think the covid era has
22:00
maybe changed the way people are looking
22:03
at life maybe they're looking at
22:06
the way they're going about things and they're going do you know what you only
22:09
live once I don't care no and I
22:12
think there's a bit now that can work both ways that
22:15
can work positive and negative it can
22:18
work in this particular instance I think it actually works positive because
22:23
I think people are basically going no I'm not doing it and I want something
22:27
more realistic and if you don't
22:28
like it I'll just quit I would never have dreamed as ECT a year after ECT.
22:36
Of quitting that job over i would
22:39
never because i in my head i'm like i need this i
22:42
need this and i need to stay here for the next number of years to build my career
22:49
up whereas now the trend is stay in a job for a year or two move on and then
22:55
do a year or two there and then move on and then do another year or two there
22:58
and then move on and get pay rises in the process.
23:01
Every time you move, you'll get better terms and conditions.
23:05
That doesn't quite apply to teaching, but that's the trend in the wider labor market.
23:10
And I think people are much more, they're seeing things in just a different
23:15
way than maybe back in 2006, 2007 when I was starting out.
23:22
Don't know what people think i mean i you know just just just throw in
23:25
a little bit of of a bit more i know i'm starting to sound
23:28
like i'm a library of statistics it's like
23:31
richard osman mate it's like i'm richard osman here but evidence does no harm
23:36
so one in five i think it's one in five teachers leave after or no 40 percent
23:44
beg your pardon 40 of teachers leave after the first five years of their qualification.
23:51
So, you know, if you survive the first five years, you like to survive quite a bit longer.
23:57
The other key statistic, well, there's several, but one of the other key statistics
24:02
is that a lot of women in their 30s leave the profession in large numbers.
24:07
Now, that is for lots of reasons, but maternity pay is a key element within that mix.
24:17
And maternity pay is relatively poor in teaching compared to most public sector professions.
24:24
Although the government recently said it was going to double the number of weeks
24:27
that you qualify for full maternity pay. So currently it's four.
24:31
It's going to double to eight.
24:34
So, you know, don't get too excited about that, everybody, but it's something.
24:38
But it's still about 18 weeks lower or less, I should say, fewer than in some public sector jobs.
24:47
So there is a real issue there. I think that's based on the fact that there
24:51
were so many women working in teaching historically that in the past it would
24:57
have been seen as very expensive to meet that requirement from a government perspective.
25:04
But that's an issue too. But what I think we're actually seeing,
25:10
recruitment crisis, as the data suggests, we're not really seeing a recruitment crisis.
25:16
We might have done about seven or eight years ago, actually,
25:20
ironically, before the pandemic.
25:22
But right now, we're not. What we are seeing is a retention crisis.
25:28
Can i just oh sorry sorry go
25:31
on i was just going to read some comments we've had so steve
25:34
has said itt does not prepare you for the job i'm 41 this
25:37
is my first year of teaching i had a business before which prepared me for teaching
25:41
i will stay until i retire it's hard work i feel if i would have gone into teaching
25:45
now in my 20s i would not have lasted long daniel has said i saw data that around
25:50
one in three of teachers do not have a clear reason to go into teaching initially
25:54
which he found interesting.
25:56
Neil has said, who can blame anyone for not knowing what teaching is really
26:00
like when you look at the government adverts for it? Banter!
26:04
The government adverts make teaching look as challenging as leading a scrapbooking
26:10
evening for the Women's Institute.
26:13
Neil, I can't disagree with you on that one because I just love every advert
26:20
over the last 20 years has just been like a guy of about 23 looking so fresh-faced at about 3.30.
26:28
And they're walking out at 3.30 with the kids and the kids are high-fiving them
26:32
and they're going, hey, we learned so much today. It's been amazing.
26:35
And the teacher's like, thanks, man. It's been so good. I can't wait for the next day.
26:40
And they've got like that perfectly ordered like satchel, you know,
26:43
like one of those really expensive Hugo Boss ones that you wear across.
26:47
It's like, oh my god this is amazing you know
26:50
the school building is like shimmering in the background this
26:53
ethereal haze over the top of the school building and
26:56
it's like this is beautiful sunset it's walking out at 3.30 it's been a wonderful
27:02
day and he's had like every single day of his teaching career so far he's had
27:07
a child come up to him and say you've changed my life sir and he's gone oh my god this is why I did this.
27:16
I'm finished now whereas when i
27:19
arrived at school the other morning my colleague saw me with
27:22
all my bags with my marking and my planner and
27:25
everything and she went i was going to call you
27:28
a donkey she said but i realized that would have been quite rude she
27:31
said you you look like a very nice pony she said
27:34
with all your stuff and i was like
27:37
okay yeah i look like a donkey fair enough but because i
27:40
i don't have a nice neat satchel full of stuff i have a
27:42
really heavy bag full of absolutely everything that
27:45
I've carted home with me to do and then I've carted back
27:49
again what they should have what they should have done Liz is done that advert
27:52
during like the COVID years when I had like the trolley you know bringing the
27:56
trolley around from each classroom to classroom Tom loves teaching here he is
28:01
with his trolley like move from like 16 classrooms in a day.
28:10
Oh we've had another comment wait people are
28:13
against the likes of teach first but those who survive the
28:16
itt part are those capable to do it longer term
28:19
i think university pgc lacks the classroom-based intensity of real teaching
28:24
now you know what a guest did say on teachers talk radio a while back they did
28:28
say that new teachers as the devil's advocate joe flipping it around on what
28:33
you said, they said they lack resilience now.
28:36
That's what they, I guess, I remember specifically a deputy head,
28:40
was on here and they said new teachers now they
28:43
ought they lack resilience so they weren't they were sort
28:45
of i can see both that's both sides of
28:48
it isn't it's the side where you're saying well they're more empowered now to
28:51
say no and the other side of it going well the expectations have changed so
28:56
now they're going actually we can't deal with this you know i think back now
29:00
to the start of my career and the behavior i was facing in my training year
29:04
for example i'm a pg and my NQT.
29:07
It was, especially my training year, it was mad. Yeah.
29:11
And I had to dig in, in the trenches and go, do you know what? That was a horrible day.
29:16
I had kids, you know, shouting down corals. I remember one where I was teaching
29:19
my first placement school.
29:21
I was walking down the corridor, two kids literally barged me as I was walking
29:25
past and it was a proper like rough place.
29:27
And literally I'm walking down the corridor and they literally shoved me.
29:31
And this seven foot, But I specifically remember this seven-foot Dexie Ed behind
29:35
me was, like, there, fortunately, behind me. And literally, I'm not, like, tiny.
29:40
I'm nearly, I'm 5'11 now.
29:42
But obviously, these were, like, year 11 kids. They were basically the same
29:45
height as me. And they're coming, and they're literally barging me.
29:48
And I remember people shouting, Sidwell, you know, because I look like Steve
29:52
Sidwell, the former Chelsea player.
29:53
And I remember them going, Sidwell, down the corridors. And I remember just
29:57
being in lessons, like, kids just, like, I remember one lesson, one kid.
30:01
Just stood up about 20 minutes in and just went F off in front of like the whole class.
30:08
He literally stood up in his seat and he just went F you, F off.
30:11
And he just stood there and like, you know, and if you've had a day like that,
30:16
you then got to be able to dig in and turn up again the next day.
30:20
Oh, but Tom, did you start building a relationship?
30:24
And the next day, and then that's what people, and then people say to you,
30:28
but you've not improved your relational practice.
30:32
You've not thought about how you're relating to the young people.
30:36
That's what happens now. I'm not saying that would have happened then, in 2006.
30:40
But what I am saying is, that's the answer now. It's like, it's all about relate.
30:44
You're not building the relationships. That's why it's happening.
30:46
But my point, coming back to my original point is, and again,
30:50
that's that two-sided debate.
30:52
Should any adult have to put up with that, right?
30:55
Did we have our expectations wrong in 2006, seven, eight of going, that's part of the job?
31:02
That's part. Now, to be fair, you could look at it and go, I'm sure a lot of
31:07
teachers out there would say, and please comment if this is you,
31:11
the behavior in the classroom has got worse since the COVID years, okay?
31:16
So there is that to throw in there, but that sort of poor behavior has always existed.
31:21
Has that toleration for it now gone, well, I'm not having this, I'm leaving.
31:25
Whereas before they'd have gone, no, that's part of the job.
31:27
I've got to dig in and I've got to be resilient or is it somewhere in between?
31:31
Because I think you are always going to have to have some sort of element of
31:36
resilience to be able to do teaching. because it is a performance job where
31:41
you're performing six hours a day.
31:44
It's how much and how frequently. I think that's the problem.
31:48
I think the problems that I deal with in a classroom now compared to 20 years ago are so different.
31:56
I always talk about when I first started teaching, I felt like I had 90% of
32:03
a class on board and maybe 10% that weren't on board. But I actually feel like
32:08
that statistic has flipped.
32:10
It's not as an exact science, but I now feel like I've got 10% on board,
32:14
but I'm trying to win over 90%.
32:16
And that is a really, really hard battle to fight because I feel like I'm begging
32:23
them to learn most of the time because I, and I shouldn't be doing that.
32:30
And I would like to preface this by saying I am not in an arrogant way.
32:34
I am quite a good teacher. I have good relationships with my classes.
32:38
I work really hard they know I really care about them but
32:41
I'm still fighting that battle regardless students
32:45
want to be in my class I have students ask to
32:47
be in my class so it's not that's not the issue the issue is attention spans
32:51
are the smallest they've ever been authority has been undermined to such a significant
32:56
extent that they don't care what we have to say if we're asking them to be quiet
33:00
well my mum says I don't have to listen to you you know it's that it's that
33:05
is really really difficult to.
33:08
Combat and that's exhausting I saw a comment online about this a little while
33:13
ago like we kind of get into this stage where we feel like we have to disassociate
33:18
for a while at the end of the day because you're in fight or flight mode for
33:21
six hours a day because you're you're constantly recently.
33:26
Almost engaged in combat that's what it feels like all day long and then that's
33:32
why at the end of the day where you just I feel like I have to have complete
33:37
silence for at least sort of five to ten minutes at the end of a day to just
33:41
kind of almost project myself out of my body and,
33:45
realize yeah because I'm just I've been
33:48
bombarded you know I hear my name
33:51
I hear miss probably more in
33:54
one day than I've heard Liz collectively in
33:58
my entire life like that's why that's what it feels
34:01
like it's just it's it's a constant bombardment and
34:04
it's a it's cognitive overload it's it's really
34:07
difficult and that you do have to be a certain type of person
34:10
yeah to be able to withstand that
34:13
and get up and come back and face it again the next day
34:16
with a smile on your face fresh starts come
34:20
on everybody let's go back to the cold phase again it's
34:23
it's hard and I can understand why
34:26
new people coming in would be like oh this isn't what I thought it was going
34:31
to be because of the adverts like Tom says I do I do feel like things get better
34:36
so I get I get really over stimulated by noise and like questions and demands
34:42
really really easily like I just I can't.
34:46
It happens a lot and it happened a lot in my in my first
34:49
couple years of teaching and certainly when i was doing my pgc and there was
34:51
personal stuff and there was all sorts and then it got better for a bit because
34:54
i learned coping strategies and i learned how to deal with it and i became better
34:57
at that and a more functional person and you know exposing yourself to challenges
35:01
does generally make you better at coping with them so i got really i got a lot better at it and then,
35:08
I think this was starting in the couple of years before COVID.
35:12
This is when the shift happened from where I was in South London anyway.
35:17
Like the behavior and the attitudes and the parental attitudes and the pushback from parents.
35:24
That's when it started to change and that's when those numbers started to flip.
35:28
And then obviously COVID was just like, what even was that? And then when we
35:31
came back, things had fully gone over.
35:36
And I got I got it got bad again
35:39
but it wasn't because I suddenly was like was finding
35:42
it hadn't regressed nine years or
35:44
10 years or 11 years or whatever I it's them it's them like I showed some resilience
35:51
and pushed through and got better at dealing with things because I'm an adult
35:54
and then everything else changed and the kid like they are not the same they
36:00
are not the same and I'm every time I see, oh,
36:04
it's, there's no, you don't have more SEN students in your class.
36:08
We're just better at diagnosing it. No, honey, there are more.
36:11
Because I'm not looking at the number of EHCPs. I'm looking at the behavior.
36:14
I'm looking at how the class functions. I'm looking at the needs of these children.
36:19
There are more of them. I'm not looking at the diagnoses. I'm looking at the
36:23
behavior and the learning.
36:25
There are more SEN students now. When you say behavior has not gotten worse,
36:29
these kids haven't changed, schools are just becoming more strict.
36:32
Maybe some schools are becoming more strict, in a response to the increased ridiculous behavior.
36:39
I have seen it. I have been in schools since 2010 every single freaking day.
36:44
Don't talk to me like I don't know what I'm talking about.
36:46
Behavior has got worse. Oh, parents are just getting tired of kids are coming
36:51
in saying, my mom doesn't says I don't have to listen to you.
36:53
Exactly what you said this.
36:54
Yes, there's always been a few of them, but the numbers have flipped.
36:57
Whereas before there were like two kids in a class that genuinely did not give
37:02
a monkeys about school and they knew mommy was going to back them up and or
37:05
dad was going to come in and tell the teachers to f off like so why would they
37:08
care right there was two one to three max.
37:13
Let me just say thanks to everybody who's tuning in live.
37:16
If you've got a comment or if you want to get involved in the conversation,
37:20
obviously get involved, you know, send us your comment now or just tell us where
37:24
you're watching or listening from.
37:26
We really appreciate everybody who gets involved with Teachers Talk Radio.
37:30
So yeah, feel free to get involved in the conversation. Let us know where you
37:35
are, what you're doing, any thoughts on what we're talking about.
37:38
Fire your questions in, fire your comments in. And thanks, massive thanks to
37:41
everybody who's made the comments so far, some really, really interesting ones. So thanks for that.
37:46
Jo, you've been in the job 25 years. Sorry, I was just going to say,
37:49
Jo, you've been in the job 25 years. So what's kept you going?
37:53
You must have some resilience.
37:55
It's interesting because I come from the more lofty position of leadership now
38:01
in terms of not being in the classroom full time.
38:04
And I think that that, if I'm being honest, has been a huge part of it.
38:09
When I listen with nothing but admiration, Liz, for the fact that you're still
38:14
doing five hours a day back-to-back off that.
38:18
But I was thinking about school structures and the things that have changed
38:22
over time that help and then don't help with certain things.
38:27
So, Tom, you talked about behaviour and, Ray, you were mentioning the idea of
38:32
schools changing in response to behaviours. And I was thinking about lunchtime.
38:38
When I first started teaching, lunchtime was an epic experience for all concerned
38:45
because, God, our staff room was full.
38:49
Our staff room was full. It had everybody in it.
38:52
We had lunchtime supervisors who kept the kids from killing each other.
38:56
I worked in a school, Tom, not sounds too dissimilar from what you're talking
39:00
about. It wasn't an easy school.
39:03
There was all kinds of shenanigans from time to time. but
39:06
we were all in the staff room and we all had a good old chat about all sorts
39:10
of different things we god i'm so old my staff room still had a smoker's room
39:16
at the back of it where if a kid knocks on the door you're like must i go all
39:20
the way back there getting ghost in the fog but,
39:25
lunchtime was a break it was a break and it was as far as i remember it was an hour.
39:32
Minimum 45 minutes now more
39:36
often than not schools have split lunches they have a rolling lunch period of
39:41
maybe two or three lunches those lunches are only half an hour as a classroom
39:46
teacher who's teaching five lessons a day half an hour by the time and Tom I
39:52
sympathize with the trolley as well I have one.
39:55
I don't have a classroom of my own. I wheel myself around.
39:58
If I'm somebody, and that's not just typical to people like me who are on a
40:04
very reduced timetable.
40:05
That can be quite typical for a number of staff in school.
40:09
By the time you've got yourself organised, you've gone for a week,
40:12
you've got yourself a drink and your lunch, maybe 20 minutes downtime.
40:18
I think that sometimes our school systems, in order to respond to improving
40:23
behaviour, like you say, you don't necessarily want children running amok for
40:28
more than 30 minutes at a time.
40:31
But what does that do to the teachers who are getting 20 minutes downtime?
40:35
And maybe probably by this point not with other
40:38
colleagues not with people who you can talk
40:41
to blessed situation Liz where you might get 10
40:44
minutes silence you never know maybe but if
40:48
where do you do the offloading and I think Carl
40:51
it's it's become for me what's kept me
40:54
resilient actually has been moving up through the leadership ranks which have
40:59
reduced my contact time with children and meant that I can hang on to the positive
41:06
bits and the bits about the long lesson planning and the thinking about learning, not the market.
41:13
Oh, sorry, go on. Sorry, Carl. That idea of keeping it in for longer,
41:19
that's what's made the difference for me.
41:22
Just going to say before you come in, Carl, is my dad retired in 2008.
41:28
And obviously he started in the early 70s, so he did 34 years.
41:32
And his recollection up until, I think, I don't know when actually,
41:37
maybe the 90s, on a Friday, him and his department would go to the pub,
41:42
right, for lunch. He did. Okay.
41:44
And they'd have a few. Did that, yeah. Yeah. Pint, a couple of pints.
41:48
They'd come back and teach the last lesson, last two lessons,
41:51
and they'd have the time to do that. The other thing he used to do is he'd have
41:54
a run at lunchtime sometimes.
41:56
I think back to him telling me that now, and I'm going, what?
42:00
He went for a run and had a shower and then saw it in the afternoon, right?
42:03
Because presumably you had maybe an hour after lunch.
42:09
There were proper breaks. There wasn't this insane drive of like interventions,
42:15
and things that have to happen for you to be able to have a break, right?
42:19
And, you know, I just, I mean, he told me he got observed, I think,
42:23
once in 30 years, 30-odd years.
42:26
I think once the head came into his classroom in 30-odd years.
42:29
So no one would have known whether he was okay or not as a teacher.
42:32
No one would have known. And I think in a lot of schools that was standard in the 70s, 80s.
42:37
I think that was what happened. but my point
42:40
is is just the culture change from
42:43
there and again you know you mentioned the smoking
42:45
breaks all that stuff and it's become a
42:48
lot more corporate a lot more business like in schools everything's
42:52
a little bit more like a sort of like the offices of meta you know it's like
42:57
you know how much coding have you done in the last hour you know that you know
43:01
what let's let's monitor the keystroke sort of thing and there isn't that sense
43:06
of dare I say it because it's a word people seem to hate these days, fun.
43:11
Yeah absolutely and for the
43:14
for the staff in particular let's have a laugh let's have
43:17
a bit of oh i'm you know i don't know just a
43:20
bit more spontaneity and a little bit more human i don't like the word humanity
43:26
because i don't think that's a reflection on the people in schools today to
43:30
say they're not as human as the people in the 19 whenever it was i think it fits well Well,
43:37
yeah, but what I'm talking about is the behavior of the people to be a bit more human.
43:42
So it's not about talking, you need more humanity as a human being.
43:46
It's the behavior of the person to feel.
43:49
Maybe some don't feel they can be human. I think that's the bigger issue.
43:53
They feel they have to be robotic.
43:55
They feel they have to sort of say the right things, do the right things.
43:59
I'm being monitored all the time. So I'm training myself into a way of being
44:03
that isn't me and isn't a little bit more free.
44:08
And obviously we all put an act on because we're teachers, we're professionals,
44:11
but I'm just saying we've maybe just lost that little bit of,
44:15
I said it on another show on here a couple of weeks ago, chill the hell out.
44:20
That's my catchphrase, chill the hell out. It is not life or death if one minute of your lesson.
44:29
Because you go off on a tangent and say a joke, it's gone down the toilet.
44:33
It's not the end of the world. I feel like we've lost that because I remember
44:37
the time when SMSC came on to kind of,
44:42
and we were encouraged for a period of time to engage in tangents because it
44:47
was still seen as this idea of they're learning something.
44:50
If you're able to talk about the wider world in some way, shape or form,
44:53
that was a good thing to be like, obviously not take a 20 minute tangent on something,
44:58
but to go oh since you don't know anything about that
45:01
let's just pause for a second let's have a conversation about that because it
45:04
is good that is valuable but now we're cramming so
45:07
much in to our lessons and we've got such a deadline
45:10
we're always you know the tail's wagging the dog most of the time because
45:13
it's like right we've got to get to an assessment so let's just get through
45:16
this material let's get you to that assessment as quickly as possible no
45:20
oh no we can't talk about that don't ask me a question about that you can come
45:23
back at break time if you want to ask me a question about why are we doing that
45:25
if a kid has a like a really valid question to ask let them ask it like i'm
45:30
terrible i let them ask all the time i'm like they know they know if we ask
45:33
miss webb a question you can get her off on something for sure i'm really easy to derail yeah yeah yeah.
45:40
But I bet you control that, though, because I used to do it.
45:44
Sometimes if I saw that their attention was going, I would derail them from it.
45:48
Oh, my God, did I tell you, by the way? Blah, blah, blah. And that and the other.
45:52
And then you've controlled a situation where they are starting to get fidgety
45:59
and things because they're like, oh, what are we going to hear about now?
46:02
And then you go, right. Oh, God, I'm so sorry. I've interrupted you.
46:05
You were working so well.
46:06
Carry on, carry on. And that kind of thing.
46:09
I bet you often you're in control of that in a way that you don't necessarily
46:13
consider, but you've decided, you've made a decision to allow that question
46:19
to be answered or to because of that value that it offers.
46:22
And often because it might just you're taking control of a lesson where there
46:27
might be a bit of chatter going on as well, you know, a bit of discussion and
46:30
you lead it instead of them leading it.
46:32
Because once they've got an idea in their heads, often they just want to keep
46:35
going. And I just wanted to remind you again about Hachette Learning,
46:40
publishers of professional development books and resources that support great
46:43
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46:45
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46:51
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46:53
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46:58
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47:01
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47:06
that genuinely make a difference.
47:08
And as we head into exam season, AQA are focused on helping teachers feel supported and ready.
47:13
Just head to their website, aqa.org.uk to find out more.
47:17
And just on the lunchtime, on a Friday lunch, I started at my school in 2011
47:23
and we had a 40 minute lunch break.
47:25
And we had a lady who worked in the maths office and she
47:28
would go around and ask all the teachers what their order was for
47:31
the pub and we'd all give her order she'd phone it through to the pub we
47:34
would have anybody who was on a free before that
47:37
lunch break was on the driving duty so they
47:40
would pull up outside the the door to the
47:43
department everyone would pile into the cars we'd.
47:46
Race to the pub the food would be out we'd throw that
47:49
food down we had about probably 25 minutes
47:53
to talk eat and and then we'd hurl
47:56
back in the cars and hurtle back in run up
47:59
the corridors and do you know what it was amazing it
48:02
was absolutely amazing because you broke free
48:06
and then they shortened lunch break to 35 minutes we
48:09
couldn't have any more then there was a ruling that you couldn't leave the school
48:12
site unless you had permission and and it all
48:14
went and and actually that it meant so
48:18
much to to our department not all the departments did
48:21
it at school you couldn't all do it but but it was just a
48:24
real treat it was a great thing and a great loss to
48:27
us when that was gone the reason why it's
48:30
all gone gone gone gone the reason why it's all gone and let's take a long-term
48:35
view of this because it has changed since your dad was in the profession without
48:40
a shadow of a doubt the reason why it's all gone is that we had we developed
48:45
from the late 1980s onwards a marketization of.
48:50
Public services generally, but of teaching in particular and education in particular.
48:55
And that marketization led to a very high stakes accountability system.
49:00
So what we have now, and I started the profession in the late 80s,
49:04
so I'm going back a bit, but Ofsted appeared then, league tables appeared then.
49:09
And what happened then is that gradually leadership had to respond because otherwise
49:14
it would be out on its ear.
49:16
Basically, a lot of schools were run in a different way because the leaders
49:21
were grossly insecure that they would lose their jobs if they didn't deliver
49:26
the right levels of performance,
49:28
the right levels, the right standards in whatever the latest offset metrics
49:33
happened to be that year.
49:34
And so by the early 2000s, it already changed a lot. And I know some of you
49:39
joined the profession at that point.
49:41
It had already changed. The most fundamental changes already happened by then.
49:45
And by that time, there were already lots of teacher observations.
49:49
There were already lots of, you know, CEFs at departmental level.
49:53
People were already being measured against subject progress indexes and such like.
49:58
And all of that has just increased. and since 2010 increased on steroids because
50:05
the Ofsted framework has become more unforgiving and less flexible.
50:10
And obviously we've seen tragedies as a result of that.
50:12
The reason I mentioned this is I was coming back to you, Joe,
50:16
earlier because as a school leader, and I'm head of a school too, and.
50:21
School leadership is actually in greater crisis in terms of retention than actually,
50:26
you know, the sort of mainstream teaching workforce.
50:30
But nevertheless, what it shows is that we're in a situation where everybody
50:37
in teaching, one way or another, is living in a state of fear.
50:42
A state of fear of being failed.
50:45
A state of fear of being criticized.
50:47
A state of fear that nothing is ever good enough. Now that isn't conducive to good,
50:54
performance or well-being. And what the government has to do,
50:59
and it does have it within its power, it does have it within its gift, doesn't cost anything.
51:04
It needs to lower the state of fear. It needs to lower the constant state of anxiety.
51:12
And you will find that the performance of the profession will rise.
51:16
They would find that results and actual long-term manifestation of performance
51:23
and well-being of young people will improve and they'll find that recruitment
51:28
and retention will improve.
51:29
But because of the fear of certain sectors of the media and the accusation of
51:35
dumbing down standards and so on, they don't do that.
51:38
And they need to have the courage to do that because those of you who have been
51:42
working in the profession for a long time know that you don't get an outstanding
51:46
education system by clamping down and tightening up on everything and watching
51:52
and measuring and weighing every second.
51:55
What you get is a highly anxious education system. And that's what we've got.
51:59
And we have, therefore, young people joining who want to do well and want to
52:04
be enthusiastic and enjoy it. And they should.
52:07
And my own daughter's in teaching and I'm proud she is.
52:10
But the simple fact is too many of them finally can't take it Because the level
52:15
of accountability is so high, the level of criticism is so great,
52:21
and the degree of autonomy has been gradually reduced to such an extent that
52:27
people no longer enjoy it. And if you don't smoke, they'll get out.
52:32
Can I just add that, because I went to a school in the 1980s,
52:36
secondary school, there were no inspections.
52:38
My maths teacher used to set the work. He would show us on the overhead projector
52:43
with his coloured pens how to answer the questions.
52:46
And then he would go to the staff room down the corridor and he would smoke
52:50
cigarettes or drink coffee or whatever he did down there.
52:52
And he would come back at the end of the lesson, regardless of what we were doing.
52:56
If we made too much noise, he'd hear us and come back. And he would tell us the answers.
53:00
He'd tell people off who hadn't done the work and then
53:03
that was the lesson that was our learning experience so we
53:06
do need to be to have inspections to make
53:09
sure that schools are offering value because I
53:12
lost out for definite because you know it doesn't take much
53:15
to derail me anyway so if there wasn't a teacher there I was doing nothing
53:18
and so and so it does it is
53:20
important but it is the over-reliance on
53:23
inspections I mean the endless warning threats
53:27
we may be coming in we've got visitors they might want
53:29
to come in we've got fake Ofsted who are
53:32
going to come and tell us how to pass an Ofsted and then Ofsted when
53:35
schools fail their Ofsted exams they go through this system
53:38
where every lesson every teacher has to do
53:41
the same type of lesson so you start with these
53:44
many questions at the beginning then you've got five minutes to do this you
53:47
have to do 15 minutes of that and so every lesson is
53:50
the same and of course one of the things about teachers and
53:53
what makes great teachers great they're individuals so
53:56
they have their own personality their own way of
53:59
delivery and and that's all being scraped out and scooped out for this sort
54:03
of robotic autonomous sort of you know this is how we do it and it's such a
54:08
shame it's devastating everything everything carl and lucy have said sorry tom
54:13
everything carl and lucy have said i okay so when i first started.
54:19
In 2011, got my first teaching job, did my PGCE the year before.
54:24
I remember so many conversations about, like, you're really lucky to have found
54:26
this school, that we had an opening, because...
54:29
A lot of the schools around us are run by this large academy chain that is notorious
54:33
for being just an exam factory. They don't care about the kids. They're just numbers.
54:37
They're just like meat going through a sausage maker.
54:41
That was the conversation. Don't work at one of those big academy chain schools
54:45
because the teachers have no autonomy. The students are treated like lab rats.
54:50
It's just don't ever work at one of those places. Don't ever leave.
54:53
No one really says that anymore because too many schools have turned into that.
54:58
That those conversations have kind of faded out and
55:01
you have these like thousands of schools where the staff are stressed and asked
55:06
to do the impossible the kids are treated like numbers who just need to get
55:09
a certain grade and other things are are ignored and it's just literally no
55:13
one in this organization is having a good time except maybe a maniacal head teacher that just like.
55:20
Cackles evilly whenever he makes another decree
55:23
like there's no one else here who's enjoying themselves mr burns
55:26
right yeah bald head
55:29
and all at least so yeah so you
55:32
have you have so many schools that are that are the
55:35
thing that was rare enough that it was still being talked about and warned about
55:39
16 years 15 years ago is now has now become so commonplace and everyone's just
55:44
like teachers feel like there's i mean there are so so few schools comparatively
55:48
to go to get away from that now and students have even less choice than where
55:51
they actually go because the catchment areas Etc
55:53
Like no one's This is just It's like the,
55:56
the blob like the darkness is just taking over can
56:00
i just say we we are not sponsored by a cigarette company
56:03
we're not sponsored by marlboro lights cigarette lights have
56:06
been mentioned about eight times in this show i
56:09
just want to make clear we do not promote the smoking of
56:12
cigarettes here but we are just using it maybe as an example of the way things
56:16
have changed how things have changed absolutely and we've had some oh liz hold
56:20
that thought i just want to read some comments So Neil just earlier was saying
56:25
about he has a 25-minute lunch break in his school of 1,200 kids.
56:31
Tony was saying, I'm glad someone's been honest about leadership.
56:34
I think this is referring to yourself, Jo.
56:36
It certainly can be easier to be in the classroom less. In my opinion,
56:40
having been in leadership, it's teaching a class where the most skill and stress is. Absolutely.
56:47
Michael has said education in the late 90s became increasingly politicized and
56:52
several major shifts made the profession less attractive and more pressurized
56:56
for many teachers and leaders.
56:57
Derek has said you're completely right about Ofsted's pressure and fear.
57:02
I've been listening to you from my office today.
57:04
Yes, it's Sunday and I'm in school, primary head teacher. Derek, go home.
57:09
Derek, we really appreciate you listening. You're an absolute legend for listening
57:13
in to this but go home have a cigarette.
57:22
Carl has said well said Carl state of fear is absolutely right but there's no
57:27
way I can see an education secretary of any party having the bravery to make
57:31
the changes that you speak of there's some comments keep them coming thanks for the comments,
57:36
Good ones.
57:39
Go on, Liz. What were you going to say? I can't remember what I was going to
57:41
say. I know you told me to hold on to it, but I can't remember. My brain's gone.
57:46
Oh, it was what Ray was saying about kind of the kind of robotic way that schools have ended up being.
57:52
I think what we're also combating as well is this kind of weaponized incompetence,
57:58
this learned helplessness that we've got in the classroom a lot.
58:01
And I'm finding, like,
58:04
I even have to give basic instructions pick up
58:07
your pen yeah and it's
58:10
these simple things that I never had to do at the
58:12
beginning but it's now we're having to and I lend out more pens than I have
58:16
ever lent out in my whole career because so many of them come not properly equipped
58:23
not because they can't but because they think it's an easy get out yeah as well
58:27
well if I don't have a pen I can't do work and the number of them that will.
58:33
Wait for you to spot that they don't have a pen which when you've got 32 of
58:37
them you know unless I've got eyes on all of them all of the time which I can't
58:40
possibly do I'm not gonna so I might make a discovery 20 minutes into a lesson
58:44
that one of them hasn't got well how why haven't they been doing anything I
58:47
don't know why didn't you tell me you didn't have a pen don't know you know it's.
58:50
All these responsibilities that have been heaped on to
58:54
the teacher it's they're all tiny little
58:57
micro things but they really do add to this cognitive
59:00
overload and I always think that first five minutes
59:03
of a lesson is really really overloading we've got so many things
59:05
to do so i've got to have my do now on the board i've got to greet at the door i've
59:09
got to make sure that i'm checking their uniform on the way in i've got to make sure they're
59:11
all properly equipped i've got to do the register i've got to do it within the first
59:14
five minutes i've got to email someone from safeguarding if someone is missing
59:17
i've got to and that's just the first and then
59:20
you've got behavior you haven't even said about behavior yet and
59:23
the million questions what are we doing today well obviously i'm going to tell you
59:26
in the next five minutes so can you just take your seat oh can i just tell you about
59:29
my hamster right can we have that conversation at the end of the lesson miss
59:32
he did that to me he's taken my pencil case miss I
59:35
think I left my PE kit first five minutes of
59:37
the lesson and you're like oh my god oh my god oh
59:40
my god and this is the bit this is the bit outside of teaching
59:43
that I think people don't get you cannot have
59:46
five minute conversations with students whenever they
59:49
need something from you during normal class
59:53
lessons you just can't if you do that I guarantee you you will be a very poor
59:58
teacher because not even well you're having your chat to build the relationship
1:00:04
for five minutes or listening to every concern and need that each individual
1:00:09
has, you're not teaching.
1:00:11
You're not teaching. The behavior in the rest of the class is probably deteriorating,
1:00:16
even in really nice situations.
1:00:19
Classrooms, behavior will still be deteriorating while you're doing that.
1:00:23
So if you want to be really good, I'm really sorry.
1:00:26
You could do it outside of lessons, but again, you know, I think the sort of
1:00:30
expectation that people have.
1:00:33
Oh, that's my break time. That's my break time, Tom.
1:00:36
That's my lunch time. That's my before school. That's my after school.
1:00:40
I have other things to do. I'm not having a restorative and my break time in
1:00:43
my lunch time, in my after school.
1:00:45
I'm not getting to know these students unless I feel like it because they're funny or whatever.
1:00:50
I'm not giving up my time.
1:00:53
I'm not being obliged to do that. My legally entitled break time to have a two
1:00:58
or five minute conversation with some kid because they acted out.
1:01:01
Absolutely the hell not.
1:01:02
So when is it going to happen? Are you going to take time? Are you going to
1:01:05
give me a free period so I can do it? No? Guess you're having a conversation by yourself.
1:01:10
Neil said legendary monologue there, Liz.
1:01:13
Listen, I keep saying this to Liz about Liz's comments on it and she doesn't
1:01:18
believe it but Liz is just like full it's just like if she worked for like if
1:01:23
she was Alistair Campbell working for Tony Blair like she'd have been perfect
1:01:26
she'd have been like just say this it'll be all over the news in minutes,
1:01:30
and then we've got Vic I agree Liz it's just relentless you don't get time to do anything.
1:01:37
Yeah. And Joe, Carl, you haven't told us your thoughts yet.
1:01:42
You've given us, Richard Osman, loads and loads of really good statistics,
1:01:46
but we don't know what you think yet.
1:01:48
Well, I have, because I've said that actually, I mean, teaching is a privilege.
1:01:52
I don't regret teaching. I've been teaching, well, obviously I've moved into
1:01:56
leadership at a certain point in my career, but I've been in the profession
1:01:59
for 38 years, nearly 40 years. I don't regret doing it. I think it was the right move.
1:02:05
I've, you know, I've achieved so much that I'm proud of and I've enjoyed so
1:02:11
much that, you know, I'm really pleased of.
1:02:14
And I look at many people my own age who did other things and for a period of
1:02:18
time earned more money doing them,
1:02:20
but now don't necessarily feel particularly pleased about
1:02:23
that and feel that what they
1:02:26
did wasn't particularly fulfilling and actually look
1:02:29
at what I've done and want to continue to
1:02:32
do by the way and and and you know to a certain degree they say well I wish
1:02:36
I'd done something a little bit more worthy so there is another side to it but
1:02:40
but my my view is principally that if you if you remove high stakes not accountability
1:02:47
accountability is fair enough if you remove high-stakes accountability.
1:02:52
And you restore funding to a level that we used to enjoy in education in the
1:02:58
late 90s and then the early 2000s, if you do those two, all the other things
1:03:04
will become much, much easier.
1:03:06
That's not to say they'll all become easy. Teaching has never been easy.
1:03:11
Behavior you're quite right some
1:03:14
of you to refer back to incidents in in in the distant
1:03:16
past when i started teaching in the late 80s by
1:03:20
no indices was behavior better it just
1:03:23
wasn't not by any indices at all any
1:03:26
measure that you can reasonably make was behavior better than
1:03:29
it wasn't what you do find is
1:03:32
ebbs and flows so after the pandemic it was severe
1:03:35
and we've just been brutalized by that period it
1:03:38
has been really bad what has
1:03:41
changed is the funding level since about well the
1:03:44
late 2000s the funding level has changed and
1:03:47
the high stakes ability since the early 90s they're
1:03:50
the two driving forces do you
1:03:53
not think no carl that do you not think no carl that
1:03:55
i get completely what you're saying i mean you
1:03:58
watch like movies of like kids in the 80s like
1:04:01
one of my movies hope and glory right i love the movie hope and glory and it's
1:04:05
got a bunch of kids who are about eight in that movie and they're in a gang
1:04:08
during the Blitz and they're going around smashing up houses throwing stuff
1:04:12
at each other saying really bad swear words and that's 1940 right and they're
1:04:17
going into the bomb wreckaged houses you know,
1:04:20
making toys out of wreckages and all that stuff right.
1:04:24
So I'm agreeing with you that that stuff's always existed. And I do think schools
1:04:27
are generally now more ordered.
1:04:29
But one thing that I would say, and I think teachers have got better.
1:04:33
I think the level of training now is insane compared to like the 1970s.
1:04:38
I mean, like, again, I think my dad said like he didn't even,
1:04:42
I can't even remember, but like his training was just like awful.
1:04:47
And, you know, that's great. But the one thing I would say, though,
1:04:52
is that in the last five, ten years, maybe, and this is more a question than
1:04:56
a statement, passivity, levels of, I don't care.
1:05:02
Yeah okay now i'm not saying that didn't exist
1:05:05
in the 70s 80s but social media
1:05:08
the the sort of idea of
1:05:11
that social media didn't exist there wasn't a you know
1:05:15
there wasn't that alternative to what
1:05:17
the teacher was offering that there is now right it's
1:05:21
not like i could be doing this i could be doing that i
1:05:24
mean obviously there was a bit of that i could read a magazine but reading
1:05:28
a magazine or it's not quite as different as scrolling
1:05:31
tiktok or listening to mr rogers yeah it's a slightly engaging in this so levels
1:05:38
of passivity and the whole thing of i don't really care i don't value this again
1:05:43
in the in the 80s i can't speak for this but the 90s even i mean i was a kid in the 90s.
1:05:50
I still i mean i remember teachers coming out of
1:05:53
that classic one of the we go i've got
1:05:56
my qualifications you haven't got yours your
1:06:00
you now need to work hard so you can get your qualifications at
1:06:03
the end and i remember i i don't need to do
1:06:06
anything i can sit here i've got my degree and i've
1:06:08
got my job and you lot haven't and you've got your exams
1:06:11
coming up so if you want to do it do it but if you don't i
1:06:14
remember right and it was great i loved it right but i sent
1:06:17
out the other day tom brilliant right i love you right bring back
1:06:20
the 90s well seriously though but seriously
1:06:24
teachers would say that whereas my point is now i do
1:06:27
think there's more that feeling amongst a bigger chunk of
1:06:30
i don't need this right yeah for whatever we can debate the reasons for that
1:06:36
as much as we want but i don't need this and maybe you know there's there's
1:06:41
more opportunity obviously there's more opportunities there's more backup as
1:06:45
well i mean i remember when i was 16,
1:06:48
GCSE's coming up, and I didn't do amazingly I remember the GCSE's coming up,
1:06:53
and I was going, what am I going to do?
1:06:55
I'm going like if I don't, you know, if I don't pass these, if I don't do it,
1:07:02
My life's ruined. And I'm not saying nobody thinks that now,
1:07:06
but, you know, I don't know. Those thinkings have changed. There are.
1:07:11
Yeah, there are. But there are social and economic changes that have happened,
1:07:15
particularly in the last 15, 16 years, that have driven a lot of that.
1:07:20
You know, the fact that income inequality has risen quite substantially in the
1:07:27
last 20 years in this country.
1:07:28
The fact that a lot more jobs are in low-level service positions,
1:07:35
the pay is lower relative to the rest of the economy.
1:07:39
Even though young people wouldn't realise this is what they're reacting to,
1:07:43
their parents and the world that they live in is a direct result of it.
1:07:46
So I think there's a hopelessness in our communities, particularly in a lot
1:07:52
of white working-class communities in this country. And that hopelessness is
1:07:56
fueling certain quite worrying political ideologies.
1:08:01
And I think that definitely is different. I'm not questioning that.
1:08:05
That is definitely different. But purely in the context of what you can control
1:08:10
in education, because I think those things relate to what's going on in society more widely,
1:08:15
purely in relation to what levers government can pull in education,
1:08:20
they can and should have taken a different approach to inspection,
1:08:25
they can and need to take a different approach to funding.
1:08:29
And I know those decisions are very hard. And I know that the,
1:08:32
you know, the choices are really difficult for government.
1:08:36
I'm not pretending it's simple. But if you don't address those things,
1:08:40
you will continue what we have now.
1:08:42
And what we have now is a very unhappy profession and a profession that could
1:08:47
do so much more good if it was given the tools to do it. Yeah. Yeah.
1:08:52
I think guys we we have run
1:08:55
out of time massive appreciation to everybody who
1:08:58
has tuned in this morning live of course
1:09:01
you can watch this back and don't forget to subscribe to
1:09:04
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1:09:07
listen to your podcasts and because of course
1:09:10
we we put all of our programming into audio format as
1:09:13
well and so if you prefer audio you can listen to it
1:09:16
on audio too yeah we'll be
1:09:19
back again on ttr all this week actually we've
1:09:22
got shows every single day this week and of course points of view
1:09:24
we'll be back as well we don't have a thursday points of view this
1:09:28
week we'll be back next sunday as usual
1:09:31
at 10 o'clock so thanks everybody take care have a brilliant sunday bye you've
1:09:36
been listening to teachers talk radio tune in live and listen back at ttradio.org
1:09:43
We look forward to hearing from you next time on Teachers Talk Radio.