Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #594 Jason Flom with Greg Bright

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#594 Jason Flom with Greg Bright · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We first heard the harrowing and ultimately triumphant story of
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: my friend Greg Bright when he told it to my
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: fellow wrongful conviction host, Lauren Bright Pacheco. Greg spent almost
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: 28 years in Angola prison for a murder he had
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with, came out at 50 years old
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: in 2003. Now, Greg's story is important because keep in mind,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Louisiana caps compensation for wrongful imprisonment at $ 400, 000 or $ 40, 000
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: a year for 10 years. barely enough to stay alive.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Greg has now hit that cap and the payments have stopped.
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  Speaker 1: So even though he spent almost three decades wrongfully imprisoned
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  Speaker 1: and lost the most important earning years of his life,
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  Speaker 1: that's all he gets. But earlier this year, Louisiana lawmakers
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: actually unanimously agreed on something. They unanimously passed a bill
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  Speaker 1: that would have raised the cap from $ 400, 000 to $ 600, 000
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  Speaker 1: and extended the compensation from 10 years to 15. But
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  Speaker 1: Governor Jeff Landry vetoed it. So think about that. The
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  Speaker 1: state takes 27 and a half years from a factually
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  Speaker 1: innocent man. He proves that he was innocent. Fights like hell.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: And then the state says, eh, this is all it's worth.
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  Speaker 1: Take your $ 400, 000 over 10 years and get lost, basically.
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  Speaker 1: So now Greg is 70 years old and facing an
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: awful decision, which is that he may have to sell
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: his humble home just to be able to afford to
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  Speaker 1: pay his bills. His story is one I'll never forget.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: We'll never forget. And once you hear it, you'll never
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: forget it. I promise. Check it out. Here is his
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: interview with Lauren Bright Pacheco.
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  Speaker 2: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the U.S. have
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: crimes even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it
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  Speaker 2: like to be one of those imprisoned people? And what's
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  Speaker 2: it like to be their ally, the one outside committed
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  Speaker 2: to fighting for their freedom? I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and
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  Speaker 2: this is Wrongful Conviction. Early on in October morning in 1975,
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  Speaker 2: a 15-year-old named Elliot Porter was shot and killed in
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  Speaker 2: a housing project in New Orleans, Louisiana. 20-year-old Gregory Bright,
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  Speaker 2: along with a 17-year-old co-defendant, someone he'd never met before,
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  Speaker 2: by the way, became suspects after a known drug addict
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: turned state's witness implicated them in a crime in exchange
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: for reward money. Arrested and charged with second-degree murder, Gregory
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  Speaker 2: and his co-defendant's trial would last for just one day,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: and the jury deliberated for all of 13 minutes before
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: convicting them. They were sentenced to life without the possibility
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: of parole. in Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. Though Gregory
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  Speaker 2: Bright was illiterate when he entered prison, he taught himself
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: to read, then taught himself the law, getting his appeals
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  Speaker 2: all the way to the state Supreme Court before the
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  Speaker 2: Innocence Project of New Orleans stepped in. Ultimately, he would
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  Speaker 2: spend 27 and a half years in prison for a
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  Speaker 2: crime he did not commit. Today, Bright is an accomplished
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  Speaker 2: actor who's appeared in 12 Years a Slave, American Horror Story,
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  Speaker 2: and Treme. He is also the focus of an incredible
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  Speaker 2: one-man documentary stage play based entirely on his words and
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: recollections titled Never Fight a Shark in Water, The Wrongful
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  Speaker 2: Conviction of Gregory Bright, which explores so many aspects of
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: this staggering injustice. It was written by New Orleans-based writer
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  Speaker 2: Lara Naughton, who is also a teacher and compassion trainer,
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  Speaker 2: and survivor of a violent crime. Lara and Greg have
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: forged a mutually supportive healing friendship and bond, and they
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: are joining us today. I am so excited for this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome both of you to Wrongful Conviction.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you. It's great to be here.
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  Speaker 2: Greg, I wanted to start with you. Can you just
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  Speaker 2: take me back before all of this unfolded What was
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  Speaker 2: your childhood like?
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  Speaker 5: I had come from a small family. It was me,
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  Speaker 5: my mom, my two sisters, and my stepfather. We did
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  Speaker 5: a lot of things as a family. We went to
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  Speaker 5: the movie theater, sat at home and played cards and
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  Speaker 5: stuff like that. Average stuff.
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  Speaker 2: And you had a lot of responsibility placed on you
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  Speaker 2: as well because you dropped out of school in sixth
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  Speaker 2: grade to care for your stepfather.
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  Speaker 5: Absolutely, you know, and it was really a tough time
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  Speaker 5: for me, you know, to be a kid, you know,
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  Speaker 5: 13 years old, having the full responsibility to care for
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  Speaker 5: a grown adult. It often had me wondering, you know,
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  Speaker 5: what my life would turn into at that point.
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  Speaker 2: You're obviously a very creative man. Did you have hopes
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  Speaker 2: and aspirations when you were a child in terms of
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  Speaker 2: what you wanted to be when you grew up?
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  Speaker 5: Well, I was attracted to music and stuff, and I
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  Speaker 5: had several instruments, a guitar, bongo drums, and conga drums.
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  Speaker 5: I'd sit around when I'd get spare time and tinker
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  Speaker 5: around with this stuff. So I always imagined myself as
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  Speaker 5: being some type of musician or something like that, because
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  Speaker 5: I was always making noise or picking on the guitars.
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  Speaker 5: But I had never actually settled into music. what I
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  Speaker 5: wanted to become or what I wanted to do. I
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  Speaker 5: just enjoyed the freedom that I suddenly had after my
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  Speaker 5: stepfather passed. I was just relieved of the burden of
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  Speaker 5: caring for him.
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  Speaker 2: How old were you when he passed?
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  Speaker 3: I was 15 when he passed.
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  Speaker 5: You know, at that point, I had been out of school, well,
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  Speaker 5: off and on since I was 13. And being tall
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  Speaker 5: and statured, I always felt out of place among the
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  Speaker 5: kids in my.
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  Speaker 3: Classes and stuff.
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  Speaker 5: But the The most important part, I think, of the
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  Speaker 5: experience of caring for my stepfather was the fact that
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  Speaker 5: he would often call me to read the Lord's Scripture.
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  Speaker 5: Because that was his way of trying to make sure
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  Speaker 5: that I stayed on top of reading and stuff or whatever.
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  Speaker 5: It helped me while I was in jail. It disciplined
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  Speaker 5: me to want to get into the books and study.
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  Speaker 5: It all came full circle.
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  Speaker 2: It's interesting that you experienced all this new freedom. at
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  Speaker 2: the age of 15, because that probably made what happened
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  Speaker 2: when you were just 20 that much more painful. So
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  Speaker 2: before we even get into that, you had a very
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  Speaker 2: close relationship with your mom.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: My mom was someone that I could turn to in
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  Speaker 5: any crisis, any bad experience, I could turn to her and.
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  Speaker 3: She would seem to have the words.
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  Speaker 5: She would say just the right things that would put
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  Speaker 5: me back and allow me to focus or concentrate. And
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  Speaker 5: she was just a wonderful lady, someone that I had
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  Speaker 5: missed tremendously after she had passed.
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  Speaker 2: And I know that you and Laura definitely incorporated her
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: wisdom into the one-man show as well, because I.
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  Speaker 2: Feel like I got to know your mom a bit
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  Speaker 2: through the advice that she offered you throughout the years,
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  Speaker 2: which was always very powerful. Take me to that evening
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  Speaker 2: that changed everything for you when you were just 20.
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  Speaker 2: How did that unfold?
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  Speaker 3: You're speaking about the arrest.
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  Speaker 5: This particular Saturday morning, I'm laying on the sofa asleep,
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  Speaker 5: and all of a sudden I hear banging on the door.
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  Speaker 3: Bam!
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  Speaker 5: And I get up, I look through the door, I
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  Speaker 5: see a flashlight, see someone shine the flashlight on the
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  Speaker 5: porch outside. And, you know, I was hesitant to open
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  Speaker 5: the door because really, it took me out of my sleep.
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  Speaker 5: I thought it was knocking next door. They had an
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  Speaker 5: apartment just less than a foot away. The doors were parallel.
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  Speaker 5: And my mom came downstairs after all the banging. She
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  Speaker 5: asked me, who was that banging on the door? You know,
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  Speaker 5: I said, I don't know. My mom said, I it
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  Speaker 5: might be the police, you know, because I see flashlights
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  Speaker 5: and something. He said, look, open the door up, you know,
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  Speaker 5: and see what they talking about. So I opened the
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  Speaker 5: door up, showed up, there was two police officers, you know,
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  Speaker 5: and they asked me, did Gregory Bright live there? I said, yeah,
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  Speaker 5: that's me. So one of the guys said they had
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  Speaker 5: a warrant for my arrest. I said, warrant for my arrest?
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  Speaker 3: He said, yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I said, your name had come up in our investigation
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  Speaker 5: involving this murder of the 15-year-old Elliot Porter.
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  Speaker 3: I said, murder?
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  Speaker 5: I said, I don't even know Elliot Porter, you know.
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  Speaker 5: So the guy says, well, look, we're just going to
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  Speaker 5: bring you downtown and ask you some questions. So they
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  Speaker 5: brought me downtown, back at Tulane and Broad. They interrogated
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  Speaker 5: me for maybe an hour and a half, asking me
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  Speaker 5: about people that I didn't know. But I was arrested.
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  Speaker 5: They brought me over to Orleans Parish Prison. And that's
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  Speaker 5: where I learned I had a co-defendant.
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  Speaker 2: It's just so staggering because you had never had any
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  Speaker 2: issues with the law before.
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  Speaker 5: No.
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  Speaker 2: And you mentioned in the play that your mother's attitude was, sure,
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  Speaker 2: my son will go down with you. He didn't kill anybody.
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  Speaker 3: Right, absolutely.
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  Speaker 5: You know, she just knew in her heart and her
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  Speaker 5: soul immediately that didn't fit the son that she had raised.
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  Speaker 2: And the only time you had ever been to the
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  Speaker 2: New Orleans Parish Prison was to visit a friend. You
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  Speaker 2: describe it so eloquently in your show, which I would
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  Speaker 2: love to play a little excerpt from. But if you
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  Speaker 2: can just describe as well what that place was like
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  Speaker 2: and how it overwhelmed your senses even before you were
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  Speaker 2: taken there as a prisoner just visiting there.
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  Speaker 5: The experience was something that I'll never forget because I
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  Speaker 5: can remember there was a line of people waiting to
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  Speaker 5: go in. And the closer I had gotten to the door,
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  Speaker 5: to the opening, it's like the sicker I was becoming.
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  Speaker 5: It's like something had just came over me. some outside
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  Speaker 5: force had just taken over and it had gotten to
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  Speaker 5: the point.
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  Speaker 3: Where I was about to draw up.
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  Speaker 5: And so the sergeant, he noticed it and laughed and said, you're.
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  Speaker 3: Sick, huh?
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  Speaker 5: And I looked at him, I said, yes, sir. I
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  Speaker 5: don't know what to come over me. And he laughed
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  Speaker 5: and said, it's the smell. And I remember going inside
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  Speaker 5: the place to visit with this.
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  Speaker 3: Guy and.
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  Speaker 5: When I got in there, I didn't smell it anymore.
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  Speaker 5: It's like it had totally and completely consumed me. And
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  Speaker 5: I'll never forget that.
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  Speaker 2: And not only that, that visit becomes almost a foreshadowing
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  Speaker 2: of what would eventually befall you because you felt like
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  Speaker 2: there was a part of it that got into you
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  Speaker 2: and wanted to draw you back into it.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 5: When I went to visit this guy, Think some of
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  Speaker 5: the evil inside the place got on me. I feel
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  Speaker 5: like some kind of evilness embedded itself in my body
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  Speaker 5: and decided I.
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  Speaker 3: Want him back in here. Get him back in here. Hey,
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  Speaker 3: I jump up, open the door. Police asked if Gregory
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  Speaker 3: Bright lived here. Yeah, that's me. They got a warrant
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  Speaker 3: for my arrest for the murder of Elliot Porter.
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  Speaker 2: It's so powerful. What was that like then getting brought
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  Speaker 2: back there?
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  Speaker 3: It was like deja vu.
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  Speaker 5: Everything that I had saw from the outside, now I'm
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  Speaker 5: inside and I'm stuck among what was in my mind
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  Speaker 5: at the time, my worst nightmare of being placed in there.
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  Speaker 3: Against my will.
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  Speaker 2: And that's the first time you ever met your 17-year-old co-defendant.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I met him while we were in prison. His
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  Speaker 5: face looked familiar, but come to find out, he was
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: the brother of the person that I was thinking about.
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  Speaker 5: He was the younger brother of the person that seemed familiar.
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  Speaker 2: Now, I just want to point out to listeners that
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  Speaker 2: we're not going to fully name your co-defendant or use
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: the last name of the woman, Sheila, who ended up
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: being the witness against you. And if you want to
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  Speaker 2: just touch upon why that's important to you, why you're
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  Speaker 2: so protective of both of them, but particularly her.
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  Speaker 5: After I spoke with her, she told me some things.
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  Speaker 5: about what she had experienced in her life. And I
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  Speaker 5: knew that this wasn't just entirely her doing, you know.
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  Speaker 5: I know it was a difficult thing for her, you know,
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  Speaker 5: to send two innocent people to prison, but it was
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  Speaker 5: the life that she lived. It was the choices that
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: she made. Even though there was choices that devastated not
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: only my life, but my co-defendant's life and family. And
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: I knew it was difficult for her. And, you know,
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  Speaker 5: I just didn't want to add to whatever trouble that
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: she may have had or may be facing in the future.
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  Speaker 2: Greg, I'm so humbled by your grace, sincerely, because the
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: woman that we're referring to had mental illness and addiction illness,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: and she exchanged her testimony for financial incentive, which is
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with the system. more than anything else, but
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  Speaker 2: I've always tried to live believing that we're all victims
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  Speaker 2: of victims and that hurt people end up hurting other people.
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  Speaker 2: And the fact that you lost 27 and a half
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  Speaker 2: years of your life because of that testimony and you
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  Speaker 2: still afford her grace is so incredibly inspiring and evolved.
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  Speaker 2: So you're held in parish prison. For seven or so
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: months before the trial, you are appointed a public defender
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  Speaker 2: who you met with, I believe, once before the trial?
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: Once, yes.
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  Speaker 5: This guy spoke to me at a preliminary hearing in 1976,
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: the early part, maybe January of 76. And he asked
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: that I have a list of my witnesses, the people
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: that I intend to call as witnesses. And I said, yeah,
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  Speaker 5: I had given it to a guy from the Indigent
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: Defenders Program.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: And he had taken it.
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  Speaker 5: I asked him, did he speak to any of the witnesses?
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: He said, no, I'll get around to it. And he
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: never did.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: He never spoke to any of my witnesses.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: So his whole defense was he didn't do it.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: He didn't do it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Leading up to that trial, did you, your co-defendant, and
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: your mom, your family, believe that this mistake was going
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: to be corrected in the court of law?
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, absolutely. You know, I mean, here I'm an
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: innocent person.
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  Speaker 5: You know, I had absolutely zero to do with this crime.
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: The lady who testified against me, I didn't know her.
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: The guy who I'm on a crime with, I didn't
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: know him. I didn't know the guy who was killed.
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: You know, you're saying that you and this guy committed
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: this crime together, but you've never once shown anything other
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: than the testimony of this witness that we're associated with
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: each other.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: It must have been like an episode of the Twilight
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Zone for you.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 5: But, you know, now here's the thing about the trial.
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  Speaker 5: In hindsight, looking at all the facts and circumstances of
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: this case, you know, I mean, orchestration is just clear
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  Speaker 5: from start to finish.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And the fact that leading up to the trial, you
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: were offered... a plea deal of five years, and you
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: didn't want to take it because you were innocent.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: In fact, five years? Are you kidding me?
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  Speaker 5: It could have said five days. It would have seemed
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: like a life sentence.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Five days in prison? No, no, indeed.
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: No, uh-uh. You're going to have to do more than
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: just throw that out there and expect me to.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Accept it. No, no.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: So that mockery of a trial lasts for all of
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: a day and the jury deliberates for all of 13 minutes.
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: I was like, they don't have anything. They don't have
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: a gun. They don't have an eyewitness, you know. But
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: when we got the trial and The state put on
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: this case. After the state rests, my lawyers came and said, look,
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: there's a recess. You know, the purpose of this, you know,
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: we're going to switch over to the defense. And if
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: we want to, we could call witnesses and stuff like that.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: He said, I'm going to confer with co-counsel and we're
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: going to decide whether or not we're going to proceed
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: with the Alibaba defense. And after recess was over, He
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: came back in and, you know, this guy get up
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: and say, at this time, the defense rests. And that
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: was followed by my co-defendant, the co-counselor, saying the same thing.
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: And when I questioned him about the defense rests, he
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: said that, yeah, we decided that we're not going to
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: go forward with the defense witness because the state witness
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: got on the stand and cried and put on a show. See,
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: he felt that would only aggravate. The judge, if we
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: put on alibi, witnesses. And I said, aggravate the judge.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: I said, the judge is not on trial here.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And then that's all they had, the hysterical testimony of
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: a woman who it turns out had been in a
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: mental institution.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Leading up to her time on that trial. There's no
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: physical evidence against you or your co-defendant. There's no murder
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: weapon that was ever found and traced to either one
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: of you. What was going through your head before they
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: announced the verdict?
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I just absolutely couldn't believe it, you know.
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: In fact, when they came back and started reading off
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: the charge and stuff like that, I didn't want to
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: show that. I was just so devastated. I just wanted
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: to just really be strong, but I couldn't help it.
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: I look back, you know, and my mind was in tears,
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: you know. My girlfriend were in tears. My sisters, they
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: were in tears. Some people were saying, well, we came
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: to testify. When are we going to testify? They ushered
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: them out of the courtroom. It was just a lot
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: of people just really caught by surprise, especially for the.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: People that really knew me.
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: They knew, like, he's not a murderer.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: It was just heartbreaking.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And then you're sentenced to life without the possibility of
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: parole in a place that honestly sounds at that time
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: particularly like hell. We're going to play an excerpt from
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: your show about Angola, but can you just talk to
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: me about even what the journey from parish prison to
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Angola was like?
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Huh.
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: To say that it was horrible is an understatement. It
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: was my worst nightmare magnified 100 times, like something that
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: someone just put together and put all the horrible things
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: that they can imagine, just throw it in there, you know.
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: It's like the trip gone there. I mean, we're in
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: the back of a paddy wagon. It's seven of us.
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: leg iron and seated in the back of this little
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: SUV thing. And this snake road that leads from Highway
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: 61 to the prison, it was just frightening. It's like
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: you're about to fall off a cliff in a second,
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: even getting to this place. And once you get there,
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: you are among The worst people in the world. People
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: that has committed all sorts of crimes against children, against
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: the elderly, against family members. And I got to make
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: sense of this stuff. I'm not in the same mind
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: frame with these guys. I don't go to bed at
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: night and have nightmares of the crime that I done committed.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: I go to bed at night. I sleep peacefully.
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't have these demons ride me and
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: stuff like that. But I'm among most of them who
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: are going through this stuff or experiencing or revisiting these crimes.
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: Angola is the bottom of the barrel.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: You have to be drawn away to go to Angola.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Life of 50.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: 150 fat, maximum security prison, 5,000 inmates.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Now it's 6,000.
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: The only people qualified for a bed in Angola is
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: those guys who are sentenced to die in that bed.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: It's the last stop. Angola used to be a slave plantation.
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: The name Angola originates from the Africans who worked the plantations.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: Camp A used to be the old slave camp. I mean,
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: that's something else to be part of such a long,
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: long history.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: How do you claim a spot that's littered with blood?
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: I'm talking about hundreds of years of brutality, the pain
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: and suffering that land caused.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Violence that exists on them grounds.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: How did you have to change as a person to
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: survive it? How did you have to change from the
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: moment you got there? What did you have to learn
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and teach yourself?
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, going in there, I had two fears.
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to die in prison, which I knew
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: was a great possibility. And I didn't want to be
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: in prison when my mom died. But going in there,
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: I said, I don't have no problem with none of
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: the inmates, no problem with the security. I know they're
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: here to do a job. I know guys here do
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: a sentence. I don't have a problem with any of that.
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: What I have a problem with is the fact that
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: I'm in prison for a crime I didn't commit. I'm
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: going to do everything in my power to try and
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: get out. And Somehow, some way, showed that I didn't have.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Anything to do with it.
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: Anyone that would listen, I would tell them, look, I'm
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: here for something I didn't do. I'm not out here
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: robbing people and raping people and doing all kinds of stuff.
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: It's just some kind of mix-up that eventually is going
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: to be revealed. That was the position I took, and
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: I stood on that.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: In addition to teaching yourself how to read to make
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: up for those years that you missed in school, you
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: end up mastering the law and defending yourself all the
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: way to the state Supreme Court. But they kept you
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: pretty busy in terms of the physical labor you were
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: expected to do while you were there in terms of
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: digging ditches and backbreaking work.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: You're sentenced to hard labor, you know.
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: So now I have a life sentence and I'm required
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: to work hard for the rest of my life.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Something I didn't do.
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: But the first day, I was like, look, all this
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: agriculture stuff, I'm a little too tall for that. All
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: this bending over and stuff like that. So I was
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: always going to the hole. Some guys were like.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Look, Slim, man, you need to stop going to the hole, man.
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: But the physical labor was just entirely too much for me.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: So one way or the other, they're going to break you.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: They're going to break your spirit. They're going to break
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: your back and they're going to break your will.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: But then there's something that you to touch upon in
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the show that continues to blow my mind today. And
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: that is the work that you ended up doing at
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: the then governor's mansion, which I don't think anybody can
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: wrap their head around. Will you please explain it to me?
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: Well, it came as quite a surprise to me too,
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: you know, because I'm sitting in prison, you know, and, um,
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: Of course, I didn't know anything about it, you know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: but each time the governor is about to leave office
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: and stuff or come into office, he would usually commute
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: the sentences of the people that worked for him. And
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: that's if you didn't have a real controversial case where
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: people were making a lot of noise and a lot
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: of protests and stuff like that.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: If he could.
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: Slide through there without any opposition or little opposition, then
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: that was the way it was done. Second term, this
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: is 1979. He can't run for governor any longer. David
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: Treen has won governorship, and he's about to take office.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: So they come to the prison. They said, look, everyone
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: else is going to commute the sentence of all the
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: people that works for him. So we're going to need
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: 17 guys to go down to the governor's mansion. I
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: couldn't believe that I was chosen to be a part
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: of that. For all the people that was interviewed, and
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: they've winded down to the 17th, and I was part
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: of the 17th. I didn't really feel it was the
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: blessing that people were saying it was to me. Oh man,
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: it's a blessing. I imagine it is a blessing for
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: somebody that's actually guilty.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: But in reality, you were then given a uniform and
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: you're basically... domestic help at the governor's mansion.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, I went there as a dishwasher.
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: A guy in the kitchen said, look, you need to
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: start bringing the governor's wife's breakfast in. That would help
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: you over the long haul, you know. When the governor's
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: wife becomes friendly, she knows your face and knows your name,
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: she would encourage her husband to commute your sentence. But
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: I wasn't interested in a commutation of my sentence. I
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: wanted my freedom.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: You're a man who has been wrongfully accused, wrongfully convicted,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: but convicted of murder. And other people who have been
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: convicted of, am I right? You had to just be
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: a pure murderer. They wouldn't take anybody who had been convicted.
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: And that's the one thing I found credible. These people
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: had committed some serious offense. But they're working around a governor.
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: Like I said, when I first went to the governor's mansion,
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: I was on the dishwasher. After speaking with the governor's wife,
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: they suddenly put me over the main dining hall.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: I can't believe it. Of course, they didn't know me.
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: I could have been an actual killer or something, but
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: I'm serving the governor.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: So corrupt.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: It's just so crazy. It's so crazy. You put it
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: wonderfully in the show, which I hope everybody reads and
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: gets the chance to see.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: But where did you get the drive and the strength
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: to fight to get out for 27 and a half years?
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: I went through this period of just being angry. And
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: I came to the conclusion that just, you know, I'm
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: just spending a lot of energy just being angry and
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: not getting anything done. My anger's still there, but it
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: started to subside enough to allow me to venture off
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: into other areas, like my reading and and comprehension. Once
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: I learned how to read, I mean, doors started opening
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: up that I didn't even know was there, and that
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: it kept me motivated, kept me interested, and I challenged
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: that energy into the legal aspect of this. It just
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: took over me, and You know, I started reading cases,
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: cases of people that I knew. And the case, the
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: actual trial proceedings, people that I was in the dome with.
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: So if I was curious about somebody in the dome,
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: all I do is get their name and read their case.
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: And so most of the guys in the dome, I
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: knew more about their case than they did.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: And then if you understand how it happened to them
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: and sometimes recognize they were correctly convicted, you begin to
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: understand how the system was used against you.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And it was a long process, you know.
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: I wish that it could have been cut in half,
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: but it played out in its own time and stuff.
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: And I was just so thankful that along the way
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: I was able to make the right transitions and make
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: the right decisions moving forward.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And, Laura, you've been incredibly patient, and we're going to
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: get to you in just one second, too. But you mentioned, Greg,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: that you had two wishes and two desires and hopes
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: when all of this happened to you. And one was
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: that you didn't die in prison, but the other one
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: was that you wouldn't be in prison when your mom passed. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: to me, is one of the most heartbreaking aspects of
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: this and the way in which you were told. If
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: you're comfortable talking to that.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: Here's the thing about my mom fasting. It came as
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: a total surprise to me. My family, they wouldn't tell
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: me exactly what was going on with my mom's health.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: According to my sister's.
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: Reasoning, it was that, well, you're already under pressure in prison.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: But I was like, look, you should have told me.
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: That way I would have been prepared when this guy
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: came into the dome. But when the priest came into
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: the dormitory, came in and called my name, it just
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: took everything out of me. I mean, it's just my
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: mind just, everything was just.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: A blur, you know.
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: The people I had been around a great length of
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: time just seemed like strangers. It's like I'm looking at
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: them the first time.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, we talked about how working to break your
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: back and the whole to break your spirit, but that
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: must have just broken your heart.
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was done, you know. I mean, I kept
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: telling myself that I'm going to last through the night.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: It just was that low. It was all I had
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: in the world. It was gone, just like that. Having
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: someone that you can call on in a situation, it's
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: a really good feeling to have that. I can call
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: on this person. And suddenly, it's no longer there.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: I was in a dark hole.
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: I was in a dark place. I just couldn't find
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: my way. And all the work I had done, my
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: locker was in the middle of the aisle. And I
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: tell myself, I'm getting up in the morning. I'm going
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: to try to do a little reading or whatever. But
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: I look at that locker, and I just get so frustrated.
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: It slammed me back down. That's what I'm doing it for.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Another aspect of Angola is it's so difficult to get
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: to for family. It's so inconvenient and hard to make
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: the trip, which makes the cruelty of it even that
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: much more magnified. But thankfully you did open that locker
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: again and you fought. argued your appeals all the way
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: up to the state Supreme Court. And then the Innocence
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Project of New Orleans got involved. And by the end
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: of it, the court overturned your convictions, and that was
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: upheld by the Louisiana Supreme Court. And then on June 24th, 2003,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: after 27 years, seven months, and 10 days in prison,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: you and your co-defendant were both released from after the
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Orleans Parish DA dismissed all charges. This still just hits
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: in such a painful way. You and your co-defendant left
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: prison with nothing but a $ 10 check from the state
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: and garbage bags full of your legal paperwork. Is that
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: sugarcoating it?
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: $ 10, I couldn't believe that. When we were leaving the prison,
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: he gave me the envelope with the check. He said, man,
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: I would tear that check up. He said, that's a shame.
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: Someone would be in prison all these years for something
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: they didn't do, and to be handed a check for $ 10,
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: that's not even bus fare, to wherever it is you're going.
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: I said, yeah, I'm just glad to be out. I'm
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: glad to be getting away from this. They could have
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: kept the check. But when you think about it, for
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: 27-something years in prison, worked in the fields a little time,
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: stayed a lot of years in the kitchen. I stayed
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: a lot of years at the horse lot. Stayed a
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: couple of years at the governor's mansion. And to be
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: given a check for $ 10.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: It's so disgusting. I can't even, I have no words.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: And then you're tasked with processing everything that happened to you,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: and just building a new life?
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: That's still difficult because I'm at a great disadvantage when
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: I get out. I'm not 20 years old any longer.
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: I'm 47 years old. I don't have any finances. I
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: have to start at the bottom. I was offered a
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: lot of jobs. I could have worked with a couple
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: of lawyers and stuff, but I didn't want to be
• 36:03
  Speaker 5: a part of the prison system.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: I wanted to be away from that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to profit off of someone's grief, someone's
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: pain and suffering. I needed to re-energize myself, reinvent myself,
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: and then see what was out there. And it's been real,
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: real difficult doing that.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Because it's not like you're suddenly given a blueprint.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: And even though you did end up receiving... some compensation.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: It was nominal.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: Right. I don't even feel it.
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: It's just enough compensation to get you in a.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: World of debt.
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: And the thing about it is, I don't feel like
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: I've been compensated. I don't care what the numbers.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Could be. I can't be compensated for what happened.
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: The experience of being incarcerated a month The type of
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: people that I was incarcerated with, for that length of time,
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: it's just one day of that is enough that you
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: would never, ever want to be involved in that kind
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: of stuff again.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: I would love to know now from you, Laura, how
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: you guys first crossed paths.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: We met when Greg had been out of prison, I
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: guess about four years, and I was a volunteer working
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: with the Innocence Project as a narrative consultant because there
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: are probably more people exonerated out of Louisiana than any
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: other state because there are more wrongful convictions in Louisiana.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: And so many people had been coming out of Angola.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: And like Greg, decades of experience, people were very interested
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: in hearing their stories. But what do you do with
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: 27 and a half years of incarceration? How do you
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: even begin to put that into a 15-minute presentation for
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: a church or community center? we had a group of
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: four people initially. My role was to help kind of
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: start to shape some of this life experience. So we
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: worked together for a few months and had a presentation
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: with all four of the exonerees. During that time, I
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: was just continually drawn to Greg. Greg, as you can tell,
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: has a great heart. He has a lot of wisdom.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: He's a great storyteller. And so after the initial project
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: was complete, we continued to work together for the next
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: couple of years. And we would meet everywhere. We met
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: at coffee shots. We met in the park. We met
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: at my office. We met once or twice a week
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: for a couple of years.
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: You know, she used to always say, wait a minute, Greg,
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: wait a minute. Let me get my recorder. Let me
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: take this down. I'm saying, hey, what did you talk about?
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: He said, no, no, I got to type this out.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: And I just asked him question after question and recorded
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: every conversation, transcribed it word for word. I had hundreds
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: and hundreds of pages of transcribed notes. And slowly it
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: took the shape of one man play.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I should imagine too that it's interesting as an exoneree
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: because People will ask you questions, but how much do
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: they really want to know? Like, how deep is their
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: commitment to your experience? And you met your match.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: But this has been the most rewarding experience that I've
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: ever had. It's painful in a lot of ways, but
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: it's painfully true.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Is it what led you on your path to become
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: an actor?
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Yes and no.
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: I mean... First, we had a professional actor that was
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: doing the play, but the guy starts swaying from the script,
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: slowly putting his personal stuff in there.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: I was like, you know what? Maybe it'd be a
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: good idea for you to do the play.
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: I had never thought about acting, but of course, it's
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: not acting because this is something I've gone through.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: This is my experience.
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: So I really didn't look at it like acting, but
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: I was comfortable enough to Pursue other interests in acting.
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: One of the interns that at the time was working
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: at IPNO, she decided to switch careers, becoming part of
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: the second line studios here in New Orleans.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: And so she became my agent.
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: Megan Lewis, she's a tremendous person with good heart, good
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: spirit and stuff. And so she is responsible for me
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: being in These movies, the 12 Years a Slave, the
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: 12 Rounds with John Cena, it's just a few of
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: those movies she was instrumental in me being a part of.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: What about working on the entire process of creating that
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: show with Laura was therapeutic for you?
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. I mean, at.
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: One point I couldn't get through the mother scene, I'd
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: always break down and just get these flashbacks. And then
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: we'd have to stop and start back and stuff like that.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: You know, it took me a long time to really
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: put my mom's death in perspective.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: And that is something that you get to purge in
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: the show because it's your truth.
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: And, and Laura, to you, and it's very interesting. evident
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: in what you guys have created together, your empathy and
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: your compassion and your understanding. I know in addition to
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: being an incredibly gifted writer, you're also a compassion trainer,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: but you are also the survivor of a violent attack
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: that happened years ago while you were traveling. In what
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: way did dealing with that trauma affect lead you to
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: what you do today and how you crossed paths with Greg?
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very directly. So as you mentioned, I was traveling
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: in Belize and I was picked up by a man
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: pretending to be a cab driver and I was kidnapped
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: into the jungle where I was robbed and raped and
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: the man intended to kill me and.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: I couldn't run.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: I couldn't hide. I couldn't overpower the man, but what
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: I could do was turn toward his pain. And you
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: mentioned earlier that one of your sort of fundamental beliefs
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: is that hurt people hurt people. And that was so
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: obvious in this experience. It was to my benefit that
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: he was a real talker. And so he was telling
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: me the problems of his life. And so I turned
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: my attention toward him. And caring for him is what
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: literally saved my life. And so at the end of
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: that experience, I was living in Los Angeles at the time.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: I flew home. I was just trying to make sense
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: of this. what just happened and what is this thing
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: called compassion? I knew to call it compassion, but I
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: didn't know what compassion was. Certainly wasn't a compassion trainer
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: yet at that point. And so thus began my journey.
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: You know, I started down that walk of first trying
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: to learn about, first trying to heal from that experience,
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: from the fear of it, but also the disappointment that
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: I experienced when I wanted to express care and concern
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: for not just for myself, but also for him, for
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: his wellbeing, for his healing. Because to me, the best
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: consequence that could come from this is that we would
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: both heal so that he would no longer have the
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: kind of hurt and pain that would hurt then someone else.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: But I was met with a lot of resistance to
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: that idea. And so I kept looking for teachers and
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: counselors who I could work with. And I was having
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: a really hard time finding people people who would match
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: my exploration. And so I moved to New Orleans right
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: after Katrina, and that seemed to make a lot of
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: sense to me. The city was sort of in upheaval.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: My life was recently in upheaval. And everyone was just
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: putting pieces back together again. I didn't think about it consciously.
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: I love New Orleans, but I also felt really comfortable
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: in that mess. And I was only in New Orleans
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: for a couple of years before I met Greg and
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: the other exonerees. And so Greg was somebody who could
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: shed some light on the experience of incarceration and the
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: experience of people who were responsible for harm, but he
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: himself was not responsible for that harm. And so he
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: was a step closer to my questions. My time with
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: Greg was a way for me to really start to
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: sort out both my questions and some answers. So he
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: really became a great teacher for me.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: So you both brought about a great deal of healing
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: in one another's lives just through this creative process that
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: you shared.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: Healing is for sure a process. And I think we
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: intersected in that process. Greg had already done healing work
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: before we met. So had I. we were able to
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: support one another while we were working on the play.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: And of course, both of us are still doing our
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: work beyond that. And yes, but there's something about working
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: on a creative project that places the experience outside of
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: us so that we can kind of look at it,
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: shape it, move it around. And I do want to
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: talk a little bit too about Greg talking about his
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: mom's death. When Greg and I first started, started meeting.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: Greg talked about his mom's death every single time. And
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: it was by far the most painful thing still in
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: his life. And after a while, after months of this,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: I became very concerned about what we were doing. Because yes,
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: working on a creative project and story sharing can be healing,
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: but it also can be re-traumatizing. And if done without
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: that care and sensitivity, it can be devastating.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: It's like opening a wound.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: It's opening a wound. It's opening a wound. I mean,
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: it was so complex and so deep. So I actually
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: went off for a little while and I got trained
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: in some trauma narrative work so that I could bring
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: some new skills back to our conversation. And we started
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: employing some of those techniques. And that's when Greg started
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: to remember his mom's words of advice because they came
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: to him at a time when he really needed them
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: in Angola. But then once coming home, he was so, Greg,
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: please let me know if I'm not saying this correctly,
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: but he seemed to be so overwhelmed then by the
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: grief that the wisdom had been lost inside the grief.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: And so what the retelling of the play did was
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: it brought us back to the wisdom. I think the
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: trust in the theater is what led us to Being
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: able to cry through those scenes together over and over
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: again until finally we could do it without that level
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: of grief. Is that fair to say, Greg?
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. That's right on.
• 48:00
  Speaker 5: And so I can understand when people say that they
• 48:04
  Speaker 5: were affected by it or moved by that particular part
• 48:07
  Speaker 5: because it is the heart of the play.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I've had the pleasure, honestly, the honor of reading the
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: play multiple times at this point. And I always cry
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: at that point because it is so elegant in its honesty.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Simplicity is not the right word. It's honesty, but just
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: exquisite in its heartbreak because it's real.
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: And it was because of Greg that I went to
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: Angola for the first time. And since then, I have
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: been very involved in prison work. After Greg and I
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: wrote the play, I actually, I wrote a book and
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: published a book about my own experience and became a
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: compassion trainer and then ended up going to Angola once
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: a week for many years and working to create a
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: prison-wide compassion program.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine for both of you how incredible that
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: trip together to Angola must have been because Greg, at
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: that point, you have processed a lot of demons that
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: were inflicted upon you by the experience in terms of
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: working on the play. And Laura, you get to see
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: a place that you have already seen through Greg's eyes
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: with your own. Was it a really emotional experience for
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: you to go there together?
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: I didn't have any personal interest going back to prison.
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: I wanted to go back For Laura's sake, because we
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: had talked so much about Angola that I know she
• 49:47
  Speaker 5: visualized it in her mind, but it's one thing to
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: see it in your mind and then to be standing there.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: I wanted her to see what I saw while I
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: was there.
• 50:01
  Speaker 5: And I must say that when she got there, she
• 50:05
  Speaker 5: saw it. She saw what I saw. We go in
• 50:09
  Speaker 5: the dormitory and a guy come out.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: I look around. I don't see Laura. The guy come
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: in and say, man, you with the lady? I'm like, yeah.
• 50:16
  Speaker 5: He said, man, she's outside crying. And I knew what
• 50:21
  Speaker 5: it was. I knew it was what she saw was
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: just so overwhelming. But I knew for me it would
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: draw a lot of memories back and feelings of helplessness
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: when I have to look at guys that I didn't
• 50:37
  Speaker 5: slept next to it and worked with, held long conversations with,
• 50:42
  Speaker 5: and now to suddenly be on the outside and looking
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: at them and dealing with them from the inside, it
• 50:52
  Speaker 5: was just another part of the story, but it's part
• 50:55
  Speaker 5: of the story that hit home with me because I
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: can't help this situation, you know what I mean? I
• 51:01
  Speaker 5: could just try to be strong, and that's the only
• 51:04
  Speaker 5: advice I could give someone in that situation.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: It's just devastating.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: For me, there were layers of complexity to it. It
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: was a really pivotal experience for me in terms of
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: being able to write the play, but also in my
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: own personal life. First, in terms of the play, Greg
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: had been saying for months and months that the play
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: wasn't just about him. And I kept saying, yeah, but
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: it's really about you. It's not about me. It's not
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: about me. It's about everyone there. And I did not
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: understand that until I went to Angola. When I walked
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: into the dorm and I felt, Greg talks about going
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: to parish prison and the smell. For me, when I
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: walked into the dorm, I just felt grief. And there
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: was nothing to do but cry. It was so much.
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: And in that moment, I realized, oh, this play is
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: not about Greg. Greg is one person in this enormous
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: system of both people who are innocent who end up
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: in prison and also people who are responsible for harm
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: who end up in prison. And so for me personally,
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: the person who harmed me, had he been convicted, he
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: in Louisiana would be spending the rest of his life
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: at Angola, hard labor. And I, since working at Angola,
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: have actually met people whose crimes look very similar to
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: the one that I experienced, who are spending the rest
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: of their lives at Angola. And what I know about
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: every person there is that they are absolutely more than
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: that event. And yet, that is not how we talk
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: about people. That is not how we see people. We
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: talk about, quote, murderers. A person who has taken a
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: life committed a murder. That does not make them a murderer.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: It's not ongoing. I have the profound respect for so
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: many of the individuals who I've met over the years
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: there who have grappled with their crime, who are experiencing
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: the grief, the suffering, the shame, the regret, but also
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: the strength in living a life that also includes joy
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: and love and compassion and healing. And I think that
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: if we don't tell the whole complex story, then we're
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: missing the humanness of it. And so that's what I
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: got to see. And also Angola is beautiful. We forget
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: to mention that it's 18,000 acres of rolling farmland. It
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: is gorgeous land. It was a plantation. It's fertile soil.
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: And the juxtaposition of that beauty and the pain that's
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: on that land is really It's just profound. It's staggering.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: See, that is the emotional connection. That is the complexity
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: of the human experience. And very much, you know, what
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: I'm hoping to help do with this podcast is to
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: show that emotional tether that we all have that erases
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: the us and the them. Because what you just said
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: goes right back to we're all victims of victims. And
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: if you understand that legacy of trauma and that domino effect,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: that ripple effect it has, it just makes it more
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: possible for us to create a better world with all
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: of the people who are already in it, as opposed
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: to picking and choosing and viewing people as dispensable. Going
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: back to the show, Greg, if you can just explain
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: to me where the name for the play came from
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: and who Wing Ding is.
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Wing Ding was the guy that slept next to me,
• 55:03
  Speaker 5: you know, and he was someone that always had some
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: words of wisdom. He always quick to make people laugh,
• 55:11
  Speaker 5: you know, but he used to always get on me,
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: you know, because he figured, you smart, you smart, you know,
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: but You're fighting a shark in the water, you know.
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: I had no idea what he was talking about. You
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: grit your teeth at night. You sleep with your fist
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: ball up. You see, those are signs that you're fighting
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: a shark in the water, you know. I mean, he
• 55:31
  Speaker 5: used to really get on my nerve with that.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: Never fight a shark in the water. You got to
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: get him on land. I'm like, man, what is you
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: talking about?
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: I ain't fighting no sharks. He's like, yeah, you're fighting
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: them sharks in the water. It just occurred to me
• 55:44
  Speaker 5: one day that I said, yeah, it's just like Wayne
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: Dang used to say, you never fight a shark in water.
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: The only way you could really get him is to
• 55:52
  Speaker 5: get him on land. And it just stayed with me,
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: you know.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Even you explaining how, because the play really shows the
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: triumph of the human spirit over adversity, over trauma. But
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: I viewed fighting a shark in water was basically giving
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: into anger. Yeah. that it's you're setting yourself up for
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: failure if you give in to anger. And that's what
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: you were able to overcome. Laura, do you see parallels
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: in terms of Greg's giving up on his anger with
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: you basically refusing to identify solely as a victim?
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: Anger is a dead end. There's nowhere to go. I
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: use the word compassion a lot. Compassion is is simply
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. It's not condoning
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: bad behavior. It's not even the same as forgiveness. It's
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: just recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. And that's
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: a visionary stance because you have to see all the
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: way beyond the suffering. Anger, there's nowhere to see beyond it.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Greg and I both giving ourselves the opportunity to have
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: a little bit of emotional relief I think that's the
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: essence of our lives. And then we put that into
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: the play. I think Greg and I, you know, we
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: were both kidnapped in different ways. Greg was kidnapped for
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: a really long time. We don't call it that, but
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: that's in fact what it was. He was taken from
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: his home and he was held for 27 and a
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: half years. And inside of that 27 years, Greg lived
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: a full life of all the emotional highs and lows
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: that come with life. And so, I hope that that
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: comes through in our conversations and in the play because
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: we keep coming back to the truth is in the complexity.
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: And as soon as we try to simplify any experience,
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: even the experience of anger, we're in territory that just
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: maybe isn't as rich as we want it to be.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: As authentic.
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: As authentic, yeah.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: What does your friendship mean to both of you? And Greg,
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: I'll let you go first.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: It's been really life-changing, you know what I mean? Laura
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: has taught me a lot. I've had the opportunity, the
• 58:17
  Speaker 5: chance to release a lot of positive energy. The healing
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: has been something that was never offered in any way
• 58:31
  Speaker 5: from the people who was responsible for this. And The
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: play is something that I feel real strong about and
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: I feel that it's a special thing being able to
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: share that experience with people and not bring these emotions,
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: being free of these emotions. I can express it as
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: I don't get angry with the lady who testified against
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: me when I.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Do the play.
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: I don't get angry with the judge or the police officer.
• 59:05
  Speaker 5: I don't get angry with them. As far as I care,
• 59:10
  Speaker 5: they can be sitting in the audience. My only purpose
• 59:13
  Speaker 5: here is to help. My purpose is not here to
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: hurt anyone.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: Gosh, like all great relationships. You know, Greg has lots
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: of roles in my life. He's a friend. He's an
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: amazing collaborator. He's a guide, a teacher.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: A wise person.
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: One, you know, we worked really hard for a long
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: time on this, and then we put it down. We
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: also weren't in each other's lives as much. Years have
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: gone by when we have just had a small touch
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: in each other's lives. And interestingly, being invited into this
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: conversation and also being invited to put the play back
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: on in September has brought Greg and I back, not
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: just to the conversation about wrongful conviction, but back to
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: each other. So it's really special and wonderful. And yeah,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: it feels really super good. It feels great.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you the joy that fills my soul with,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: but also the fact that you are going to perform
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: the play again this fall. Can you give me details
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: so that we can link to it? And I hope
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: to be there in person.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: Oh, that would be wonderful. We would love for you
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: to be there.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: The New Orleans Historic Collection is mounting an exhibition about
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: the history of incarceration in Louisiana. It's going to open
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: in September, and Greg has been invited to perform Never
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: Fight a Shark as part of their programming. It'll be
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: the middle of September, and Greg will be offering three performances.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm going to figure out a way that I
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: can be sitting in that audience.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 4: Fantastic.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for your time today. It
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: is such a pleasure to speak with both of you.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: And in the show description, we will include links to
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: both Greg's upcoming performances and a filmed excerpt of Never
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: Fight a Shark in Water, as well as one to
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Lara Naughton's compelling memoir, The Jaguar Man. Thank you for
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. Please support
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: your local innocence organizations and go to the links in
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: the episode description to see how you can help. I'd
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: like to thank our executive producers, Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler,
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  Speaker 2: and Kevin Wardus, as well as our producers, Annie Chelsea,
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  Speaker 2: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,
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  Speaker 2: and hosted by me, Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer
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  Speaker 2: is Cara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Beale. Researched by
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  Speaker 2: Shelby Sorrells. Mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti with
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  Speaker 2: additional production by Jeff Clybourne. Our theme music is by
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  Speaker 2: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
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  Speaker 2: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company No. 1.