Latest / The Mishlei Podcast / Mishlei 26:2 - Avian Metaphors for Gratuitous Curses (Part 2)

Transcript

Mishlei 26:2 - Avian Metaphors for Gratuitous Curses (Part 2) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so this is day two of Mishlay 26.2.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and the puzzle is Katibor La Nud Kadrur Lauf Kane kill laskinam lo or low savo, right?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_07: So the Kriexiv, the it's written as low with an aleph, not, and it's read low with a vov as to him.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_07: So we translated it as attentively, like a bird to flutter or roam, that's lanud, and a sparrow or swallow or bat, lauf to fly, so too, or I guess so a baseless or unwarranted or causeless curse will not come.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_07: Well, sorry, so the Xiv is will not come, and then the Cree is will come to him.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh a couple little actually I'll save the Mingri for later.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so our questions were what is the exact oh, you know what?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_07: Hold on just a second here.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_07: I did we okay, fine.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, uh questions.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_07: What is the exact relationship between the modal and the nimshal?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_07: Which or how many characteristics are carried over from the bird behavior to the Kil Laskinim dynamics?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_07: Two, what does low Tavo mean?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, or I guess low Tavo or Low Tavo.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_07: Um, how many Mashalim is this?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_07: Is it one or two, meaning the two birds?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh is it just a repetition or is it uh two distinct mashalim?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_07: Four, what's the difference between la nude and lauf?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_07: Are they synonyms or two subtly different verbs or two radically different verbs?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I'm gonna go ahead and collapse that into the first question.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_07: Uh last question.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_07: What exactly are we supposed to assume about seaport and drawer in the mashalim?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_07: What's the specific what's the difference between them?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_07: Regardless of how one identifies each bird, why is the first generic and the second specific?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_07: Because seaport is a generic term, drawer seems like a specific species.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_07: Um five, what is a killashinum?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_07: In what sense is it khinam and how is that determined?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_07: Six, is this limited to killashinam?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_07: Um, oh you know, I want to say this also.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_07: Um, where is a killashinam?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_07: Is a actually what I want to make this a separate question.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_07: I I I think this should, I don't think we asked this later on.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_07: What is a klala in this context?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_07: Oops sorry, uh in this context, right?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_07: Uh is it a like uh you know merely an insult, or is it you know um an attempt to harness um you know the uh the forces of God or supernatural forces to to you know inflict harm on someone verbally, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_07: Or something else.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_07: I think those are like the the um the two main uh things.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_07: So then what's a khilah's khinam?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_07: In what sense is akhinam and how is that determined?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_07: Uh is this limited to kill's khinim, or does it apply to all klalos?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_07: If the latter, why specify kill aschinam?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_07: And even if it is about kill as khinam, what can we infer about a regular klala, if anything?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_07: Eight, what's the Kree Ksiv doing, assuming it's conveying some other level of meaning?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and what is that meaning, or if it's a mistake, then what's the machlokus about why it was preserved?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, meaning a mistake where some did preserve it.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_07: And clearly we saw from the ancient textual witnesses that some did go with that still, with the uh the low uh in the siv.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, what is this decision-making scenario here?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, 10, who is the low?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_07: Is it the guy who cursed, the guy who was being cursed, the steel from the previous posak, or is it someone else?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_07: 11, who's the intended audience, the cursor, the cursey, or the bystander?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_07: 12, what's the relationship to uh um what relationship to uh I'm gonna say kill laskinam emerges from this pasuk?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so review of the few ideas we had yesterday.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_07: Um, Isaac reading the siv said, a kilaskinum is a curse that's not really about the cursey or what he did, but is clearly stemming from the cursor.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_07: And it's almost like a bird just flying by and it shouldn't affect you.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_07: So it's telling you how to deal with a klulla.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_07: Just recognize, all right, this is just a just a bird, you know, just a thing doesn't have anything to do with me.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and then Moshe Levin uh was saying an idea that uh it's talking about the seal in the previous Pasuk to whom Kabut has been given.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_07: So he does hold some social power.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_07: And if he's in a high place in society, even if the klullah is not true, the havmina is that you're worried about how it'll impact you, either because of him or how it affects other people's perception.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_07: Kamash Milan, uh, because the kabbut that was given to him doesn't affect, doesn't reflect any real power, the curse that comes from him won't affect, won't have the effect that you fear.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, he just wants to denigrate you in the moment.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_07: And then my question is is that really true?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_07: Anyone who looks at um, let's say, like, you know, Donald Trump, um, especially during the elections, like it seems like the curses that he had of people did have an effect on people, you know, like uh, you know, he's he had a platform.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and same thing on on social media in general.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so those were the ideas there.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_07: All right, so we had other ideas um people want to say.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so um uh okay, Isaac.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: This wasn't um a separate idea, but I had a couple of points.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um first off, um just uh um one thing that we that we uh um touched on yesterday is what like not distinguishing between the Michelle M and the first half.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I think with the last paragraph we we definitely saw that there was a style of having um multiple um multiple Michelle M that kind of are the same thing.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I think we don't necessarily need to have a distinct idea for the for the um the two Michelle M.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah, yeah.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if we don't get that, that's fine, I think.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the name of maparsum regarded as uh repetition.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_07: Uh okay, David.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, sorry.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_07: I thought you were that was I thought you were done.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I was gonna I had also had a um an objection to Moshe's idea.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you know what?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_07: I think I actually because we um because Moshe is not here, um, then and because we have a lot of people and we also have um not uh we have a lot of Mufarshim, I think we'll just hold off on that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_07: He loses Yeah, David.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, you can hear me?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of it's very quiet, but I can hear you.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there we go.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's better.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I was thinking that uh that this baseless curse is saying that there's like there's no substance to what the person is, why he's cursing them.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in a way of what was all saying like a call posel me mum postal, that if a person's trying to say like, oh, you're terrible because of this or these bad things about you, especially if you were to take a curse as being like seeing a character flaw on someone and then saying that like external occurrences should happen, that that character flaw gets expressed.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not actually there and it's just something that's like empty and it's just something that's really a problem with you, then you're going to think that that curse flew off and it's going out to somewhere else.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_07: But taking the idea that you meaning the cursor or the cursey?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: The cursor has the idea that this is just going to leave him and it's going to go out toward the curse.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: That no, like this is like those birds is going to come back and return to you.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I said that whether that's because like this bad idea, this bad thing that you're saying is this like bad flaw that you're saying is in someone else, it's going to either because other people are going to be seeing it in you and then like pushing it back at you, or it'll just be more conscious on your mind, and you're going to be more leaning toward this bad character flaw that you had cursed somebody with, and then it's going to come and be a curse to you.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_07: So either you'll it'll the people will trace it back to your own moon, or because it will affect your judgment uh going forward.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_07: So those are two very different ideas, right?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_07: Um the first one, like I also, if you're saying that the cursor is the audience, so I'm also wondering like um how he's supposed to relate to this.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_07: In other words, the first idea is very clear saying that if you are about to curse someone, uh, then you should stop and think A, this is stemming from my own insecurities and flaws.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_07: B, if I utter it, I might think it's gonna go away, but it's really gonna, or I guess it's just A and B.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_07: It's gonna um, people are going to possibly detect that, and that's gonna end up being bad for me.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_07: That I accept as a Michelaic uh idea.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_07: Second one is a much higher level, and there's an incongruity between like I'm not saying it's a it's a bad idea.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_07: I just don't think you can get away with saying it's like the same, the same idea here.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, you know, maybe two ideas.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_07: Like, like the guy who knows this, yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_07: It's a higher level.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_07: I'm not rejecting the idea.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_07: I'm just saying, like, I I when you're saying this or this, to me, it's not or it's like Inami, like a uh Davracher, you know.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you I could try to explain more, but if it's more complicated and given today's situation, I'm happy to leave it at the first.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, sure.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_07: Let's leave it at this for now.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh okay, yeah, mojo.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so I want to explain uh the post hook or low with with uh to them.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and referring to the person getting cursed, the cursey.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, to so you it's referring to both, you're saying?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_07: No, no, no, just run to the curse, okay.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_07: All right, to the curse, yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: So the reason a kill a female affects the person being cursed is because just like a bird that uh flutters, which I'm saying is it it stays present.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh, is because although the reason for the curse is external and shouldn't rationally affect them, a person should be aware that they can become self-conscious and and they can be psychologically affected.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: So you fill in the pronoun they the the cursee can be affected by although there's no rational basis for it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: So can just tell it the Havamina is that is I'm kind of kind of basing the Isaac and Ocea approach as the alhamina, yeah, in terms that for for Lowe to him is that if a person is purely rational, they'll think since there's no basis for the curse, um, I should be concerned for it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: You should be concerned because it will always be it will be present in your mind, like a virus fluttering, always present, and it could have an effect.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: So you should be aware that your psyche might be at a place where you will be affected by it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, interesting.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_07: So so you're saying that this is for the cursey, because the the thing that was tripping me up at first is that it doesn't sound like it's directing any decision making, but you're saying that when someone curses you and you are a YBT guy, you just think to yourself, oh, like that's like uh this is just this own guy's own securities, I'm not gonna be affected by it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_07: Come on, fully on, like it is like a bird that's that's uh hovering, you know, that yeah, that's like low sub or just transit, but it may come.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, good.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_07: All right, so let me just get this down here and then we'll take a comment.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, basically.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, okay.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_07: Uh interesting.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh okay, that's good.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, yeah.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_07: That's nice.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_07: I hold on a second.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_07: So is the the Havamina um is sorry, let me let me okay.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_07: The yeah, the audience is the cursey.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, and that's we gotta add that to the dictionary.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, hold on.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, um, the audience is the cursey, and the subject is how to um how to uh I don't want to say how to take a curse, but like that's really kind of what it is, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_07: How to how to how to uh respond, uh not how to respond, how to take or or react to a curse um that uh is un uh that is uh, right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_07: Uh i.e.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_07: stemming uh from this guy's own issues.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the Havamina is Lotavo um because of what what Isaac uh and David uh said.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_07: Um namely uh that that this uh this curse is just this guy's own issues, okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_07: And uh I'm a rational person and uh and uh and can ignore it.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_07: Uh sticks and stones, etc.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_07: Right?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_07: Uh right.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_07: That's the uh that's the thing, right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_07: Kamash Milan, okay, uh the puzzle says lotavo, okay.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_07: Uh it might come to you because it'll get into your head and um and what was it?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: Just like just like birds fluttering.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_07: Just like birds are fluttering uh around in your in your airspace.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_07: Which is one thing, yeah.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's because well, they're not macabre marus, they're undomesticated, meaning you cannot control them.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_07: They're just yeah, this goes who said that that was the um was that Matus, yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_07: Uh no, was it the Malbin?
• 13:14
  unknown: Yes.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_07: I don't remember.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_07: Uh it was Malbin, yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_07: Hadra in a Macabellas Maros, right?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and it it dwells by people, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_07: That's good, that's a good thing.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, so one second here.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_07: Uh too much stuff in the document.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_07: I'm starting to keep everything in the document now that I'm doing this whole uh so far AI uh transcript uh project business.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_07: And so it's confusing.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, this goes well with the mobim, uh, who said that the bird doesn't accept um Marus, sorry, Marus uh and dwells dwells by people.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I want to give a good example of this.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh is uh I happen to know a YouTuber.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, but uh this is I think this is true of all YouTubers, is they say, and not just all two YouTubers, content creators, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_07: Is that you can get thousands of good comments, but like one negative comment, even if it's totally basis, has a way of getting into your head and then affecting you going forward, right?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_07: Like I think that's a good example of this.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_07: And it's clearly like, especially on YouTube, the comment is clearly coming from their own issues, you know, uh, but it's it's good, it could get into your head.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_07: You have a question or comment?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, just wondering what's the practical, like, what are we supposed to do with this?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: So what do you have an idea?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, just practically is that you should be aware uh when someone is giving your baseless uh curse, that your psyche might be at a point where it will affect you, meaning you should be aware both rationally that it's not talk, it's not addressing a psychological issue in you, but you should be aware of the level of your psyche.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: I know, but meaning are you zooms to be cursed?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, no, no.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not holding one second.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not I'm not saying it it will occur.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: I'm saying you should be aware of of your psyche and how it might or might not affect you.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm saying how do you avoid it affecting you?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_04: So it's okay, it might affect me.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, well, I think having this awareness will help you.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I'll I'll give an example that you could relate to, maybe uh this teaching example is that um sometimes uh a student will do something that will upset me.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_07: And I know that it is uh, you know, like it's just their issues and it's irrational.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_07: But then if I'm usually if I don't get sleep, then I might like lash out in an overly harsh way about something that is essentially unrelated, not making the connection between the fact that, oh, this got under my skin and then now I'm like outletting it here.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_07: Whereas if I am aware of it, that's a first step.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_07: It's not no, it's not telling you how to get rid of the effect, it's telling you that this is affecting you, and then there's a whole range of outcomes in this might be, yeah, fully.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree with that you're saying they the way you're looking at is like sort of it's like you have certain tendencies that you're gonna be predisposed to.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can move past it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_07: But like once you realize you're predisposed to that, then realizing the predisposition is half the battle.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_07: Isaac.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'd say also there's um sometimes there's ways that you can at least somewhat avoid the curse.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, not reading YouTube comments.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's good also, yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so like if you like if you can, you know, sometimes you can tell this person that you know, let's say you know, this person is irrational, they're you know, quick to like um like curse people, etc.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, where you might you know be like, well, it doesn't matter because it's just this guy's issues.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: But right, knowing that it'll affect you changes how you you know weight it in, you know, in your decision-making calculus.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, let me uh give another example of just positive recording.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Avi, you want to give your idea?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, sorry.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um just talking about the birds to mean that like it's describing the behavior of birds which is essentially guaranteed and which is like observable or predictable.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning birds are going to fly.
• 17:13
  unknown: Yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Basically every every time, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's a guaranteed behavior.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's saying that just like birds fly, so too you can predict and guarantee the outcome of a kill-ass phenomena, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that a kill last phenom is essentially is when the guy, like when the cursor sees something in an individual, and he's like triggered by it.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: When in reality that thing that he's triggered by is like insignificant, or it doesn't you know doesn't call for a uh call, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's what the QLCM is, and then I think the low the creature of of lower and olive, I think is a I think it's convenient dual meaning, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning it's talking about both the cursor and the cursive.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that is that the low java meaning it will not come, is saying it will not it will not take effect on the curse heat because that thing which I guess triggered the curse is like insignificant insignificant, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: It has no practical meaning or no um there's nothing in reality which is wrong with the guy.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: So therefore the curse is like meaningless.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas for the cursor, I think the the essential flaw of the cursor is that he's he's triggered by something in this individual, and instead of realizing that he has some kind of deficiency that's triggering him, that's causing him to get triggered, he's he's instead he's faulting the other guy, the cursee.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so as a result, he's gonna end up living with his flaw of just trying to fault other people, and he's not gonna correct his problem, and that's gonna be to his detriment.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that I think means that's what I think low toll means, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: It'll come to him.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, all right, that's good.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it definitely pairs with uh uh David uh the hazal that David quoted.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Also, sorry, just to support the idea of the Maubin who says that it's not the birds are not makalamaris.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that shows you that like you can't train them to behave a certain way, or you can't like there won't be any variation in their behavior, right?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: They just behave a certain way and you can't do anything about that.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, that's good.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, um so um I actually did not have a chance to go through all the Mufarshim uh when I was uh preparing this, uh, but I did want to do, hold on.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_07: Uh let's start with just give me one second.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_07: Oh yeah, I know I had a point.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_07: One point I actually told um Avi that we're not gonna take up, but I just want to show it to you is uh I associated to, and if anyone does want to take this up, I'm curious.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I remembered the last puzzle in Kohelas, chapter nine.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_07: I think it's chapter nine.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_07: Um he says nope, not nine.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_07: Ten.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Gam Bemadacha melech alt kalel.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_07: Even in your thoughts, do not curse a king.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_07: Uvachadre mishkavacha altkal ashir.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_07: And in your innermost chambers, bed chambers, don't curse a rich person.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_07: Because a bird of the heavens will carry the the voice, ubach nafim yagi davar, and a winged creature will declare the thing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_07: So it is interesting that he also has another bird curse mushle.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_07: Um, uh, and uh Avi was wondering if there's any like uh relationship between the two.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and also this is um this does seem to be more not positive, but like it's like the curse will land.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_07: So we weren't sure if this is like in line with the idea or if it's uh saying some opposite idea.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_07: And because it's Kohellis, you don't know if he's saying something true or false.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, uh it's just true.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, let's look at our usual uh suspects.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, let's start with the Mitsudas David.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_07: Um and we'll go forward.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so Mitsudas David.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_07: If anyone wants the packages here.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_07: Um, okay.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_07: All right, um, okay, Katipor kmo tipor hapureach mikino lios nodid la ha sigma a falo, just as a tipor flies off from his nest to wander to attain its uh food.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_07: Uh uh shamaim, and just as a drawer flies off from its nest to fly into the heavens.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_07: So he's saying two different um things.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_07: One is to find food, the other is to like just you know take a stroll in the heavens.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, but they both come back to their nests.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_07: Kin, also maybe it's not two things, maybe it's just two reasons to leave, but they both come back.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_07: Kin kiloskinam, khosrim ubaim el hamakalo atmo, mi pivyatov el kirboyavo.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so too, a kiloshinam uh leaves and then comes back to the makala himself.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_07: From his mouth it goes off and and into his innards it comes back.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_07: So I don't know what new idea he's saying here, but the uh for starters, I think this certainly goes with all of the uh kolaposomum posel ideas that we said that that because the klala carries the trace of the one who said it and stems from the one who said it, then it can come back to bite him.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_07: That's one.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_07: That's the Iba el kirbo.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_07: And then the other thing also is like word gets around that this guy cursed this guy, and you're gonna create social animosity.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_07: You know, uh, and like people will find out that you're the one who who said it again in normal circumstances, and that's gonna that the the effects of it are gonna are gonna um affect you, are gonna uh come back to you.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Dubit.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if you could take them to two different methods.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: A little louder.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you could take them to different methods of play, that it seems like one might be like a more directed curse, like a particular thing, and one is just like a general bad thing.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And both of those have this effect.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that's good.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_07: By the way, incidentally, when when I was thinking about this, uh um and thinking about which quality of the birds is it taking.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_07: So there is a possibility that it is only taking the the quality of coming back.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_07: Uh oh, sorry, if you think it goes away and it's coming back.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_07: So I was thinking like a boomerang is the example we use.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_07: And then that got me curious about when boomerangs became known to the Western world.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and so uh both Claude and uh Chat GPT said that the 1780s is when people in the Western world uh encountered the boomerangs in Australia that came that would come back.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_07: Uh there were boomerangs in ancient Egypt, some of which were buried in King Tut's tomb that were just throwing devices to like hunt or whatever.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_07: But the idea of a boomerang coming back is a uh is something that like I that's the mushroom that we use.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_07: So there is a I just want to say there is a possibility that this has nothing to do with birds, it just has to do with things that fly away.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_07: And if you didn't know what the nature of the thing is, then you think that it just goes away forever and then it actually comes back to you.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_07: So just uh yeah, uh so I'm not sure.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I I think uh there's a possibility that that's what that's what he means, and that um, you know, I know David just gave two explanations for La Uf and La Hasid Mahalo, but yeah, I'm just throwing it out there uh and it'll come back.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_07: All right.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_07: Um okay, uh next, let's does anyone have anything else on Matsudis?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_07: I I think this is like a you know, again, uh this is this is you know, everyone knows, I think, who's in Michel here.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_07: I hold Matsudis D to the highest regard.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, sorry, not the highest regard.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_07: He's a uh uh A tier level, not an S.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_07: But uh um, but uh sometimes when we read him, then I take it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_07: Um if we've already fleshed out the shot and it lines up, then I will move on quick pretty quickly from him.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_07: Uh he's very good at giving shot, but uh yeah, Ellie.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um this kind of sounds like one of those stoic principles of like watching a butterfly or watching a cloud pass by, like something that's moving unpredictably, but you kind of just have to accept that you can't control it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um but in this case it seems almost a little more reassuring.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because at least in the other case um where it's applied, it doesn't necessarily mean it'll turn out well for you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: It just means you kind of have to accept it.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this one kind of means not that it won't turn out well for you, but it won't necessarily end up as bad as you may think it will be.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like with that flying analogy, there's a lot of things.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um that with the it's like a similar analogy, and it's kind of essentially saying that it's out there, it's up, but there's not much you can do to control it, so you might as well kind of be at peace with it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I didn't think that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_07: I got mixed up because I thought you were talking about the Matsuda's W seems to be well, actually, I I don't know who would you say he's talking to, or is he not talking to any specific audience?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_07: Could be either, right?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_07: Could be that don't curse people because it'll come back to you, or if someone does curse you, then here's how to deal with it, remembering that it's gonna come back to the guy.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, next let's do the Mi'iri.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, by the way, and just again, another basic methodology thing.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_07: I do think that there'd be an Yonah is one of the best commentaries on Mishlave, but we don't have him past uh chapter 21, I think.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_07: Maybe it's more.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_07: I don't remember.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_07: So unfortunately, what happened?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, Mi'iri.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Hatsipur Hu Hanikra Fisher, Vadura Huhanikra Irnidal.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_07: Now went to Claude uh to ask Mi'iri uh to ask what the Mi'iri might be saying here.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so it says the word, hold on, I'm just gonna make this a little bit bigger.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, um so the sparrow and the swallow, the word oh, passer, okay, is his laws for passer in the Latin and old proven proven.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_07: I never had to say know how to say that.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_07: Proven call uh word for sparrow.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_07: The word that is his laws for door, a form of acitan iron dela, um uh meaning swallow.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_07: Both fit in the area's proven call setting.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_07: His descriptions match those birds well.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_07: Sparrows are typically house and cut courtyard bird, and swallows are known for nesting on houses.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_07: So both of them are house birds, which he's gonna go on to say.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and uh points out also the thing that bothers David.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_07: Modern Hebrew uses the names the other way, the drawer is the sparrow, and the swallow is the sununit.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_07: And that's something that uh, you know, I said I don't think the early modern Hebrew Tanakh uh language constructors met up with the ornithologists to decide on what the most accurate terms for modern birds are in modern Hebrew.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah, was that?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_07: It would be nice if they did.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_07: It would be nice if they did too.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_07: Like that ship has sailed, that bird has flown and won't come back.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Vidusha Tipor Matsu Babatim of Vachatiros Tamid.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_07: So it's known that the Tipor uh is found in houses and courtyards constantly or all the time.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_07: But the drawer makes nests in houses.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_07: And therefore it needs to, oh, this is interesting, it needs to constantly wander off because of those who enter and exit.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_07: So I guess birds will flutter away when you walk nearby, and birds in trees don't really have to like fly off when people walk by because people aren't walking around in trees.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_07: But if it's in your house, it's constantly like leaving uh and coming back to the nest.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_07: Matsurif el Heyos Tinuatm Kala, and their their movement is light.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_07: Metad katnusam umyot uh basaram, uh, because of their small size and their uh uh minute flesh, their little flesh.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_07: Ba'amar, tnusatzibor bah drawer, binodam uv ovam, it's saying just as the movement of the tsipor and the drawer, due to their wandering and their their flight, she he kalah shibakalos, which is the most light motion, kah kilaskinam memaheris lava lamakal, so too the uh kilashinam is quick to come to the cursor.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so uh we'll have to judge where his idea divides.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_07: I'm gonna read the whole thing and then we'll go back.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_07: Velo uh kri bav.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_07: So the low with the vov is in the Kree.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_07: El Shahefko Havav la Aleph.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_07: But opposite is the Vov for the Aleph.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_07: To show that the curse will not come to the one who is cursed.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so in other words, it'll come back to the guy who cursed uh the cursor, but not the cursory.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_07: All right, vizeh.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_07: Now, this is an interesting application, somewhat relevant to the Assar Summit Chuba, maybe.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_07: Vzeh arlachaam.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_07: This is a uh a lesson to the Chacham, Shalo Yi Yare Lehiach, he should not be afraid to rebuke.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, why?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_07: Hin the Midosmos, whether in Midos or in Chachmos, your Safar is terrible.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh Klaulos Hanochach on account of the fear of the curses of the one who is being uh rebuked.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_07: He killaso Allah, because the if the guy who is rebuked curses you, his curse is upon him.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_07: And God will reverse, uh will transform the claula into a bracha.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know what it is.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_07: Uh it says, they they they curse, but you will be blessed.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so so first of all, let's just summarize how he's reading the pasta, right?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_07: He's saying, uh actually I'm gonna just type this here.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_07: So Mi'iri.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_07: Uh let's put this here.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_07: So the Mi'iri is saying, uh, so the qualities of the birds uh in question are A, quickness of movement, B um uh leaving and returning, uh sorry, quickness of movement due to uh lightweight, right?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh and little flesh.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_07: Sorry, and small size, small size, uh leaving and returning uh frequently because uh they they dwell near people.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_07: I think those are the two qualities, right?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah, uh and I guess the third quality is um, I mean it's part of the second one, is uh it will always come back.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_07: Then the idea is that a shouldn't be afraid to rebuke someone um on uh on account of the retaliation from the rebukees uh curses, okay, uh, because Hashem will convert that Klaala uh into a bracha.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_07: Now the thing that is getting me is is this a separate idea from the Kriegsiv and he had an original idea beforehand, or is he combining them?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_07: Because usually the Miri will overtly say Yeshma Farishim or another interpretation here.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_07: And i i I I'm not accustomed to the Mi'iri's Kriegziv things, right?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_07: Because like up until now he was saying that uh did he say an idea?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_07: No, maybe this is the idea, because he didn't really say an idea earlier, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_07: I'm just trying, I'm for some reason I'm having a hard time like uh merging the uh the things he's saying.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_06: So what is he saying?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_07: And why shouldn't the Kakan be afraid of the uh the the the curses of the Rubyuki?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_07: Is it all the reasons we said?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_07: You know, or does it have something to do with like specifically Tokhaha?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_07: Like the fact that he makes this puzzle specifically about Tokaja and saying that God will convert it to Bracha to me indicates that there's something specific about Tokhaha here.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_05: It seems like it's the same extension saying don't worry about a claw.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: Right, good.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_05: And he's saying, like, yeah, like why you care about that is for the case, like like Ah, okay.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_07: The application is for the Haha.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_07: So normal Klolos go back to people, and again, I'm I don't mean to project into this, but I do think that everything we said about clawos, either where they come from or how they affect social stuff, I think that's what it means it comes back.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_07: So now the question is let's see, is there a nuance that's brought out from the fact that applying this to a tohaha?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_07: Like in other words, let's just put ourselves in the khakam shoes because we're not khammim.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_07: Um like how should if I I'm afraid of giving someone tohaha, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, because he's gonna insult me.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_07: How do I apply this principle to that case?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_07: And he is introducing a new kidish, saying God's gonna transform it to a braca.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_07: The puzzle doesn't say that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_07: It's not like the bird comes back with gold, you know.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_07: Wait, where do you get the billin' from?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_05: Oh.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_07: Uh interesting.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_07: Interesting.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I that uh just to be clear, I don't think he's saying that the idea is from Billin.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_07: I think he's saying that the the footman's saying the Miri's wording is being borrowed from yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_07: Because he the fact that the Miri quotes um Talem instead, yeah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_07: You know what we should do?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_07: Just just for for kicks.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_07: I don't I'm there's not a guarantee.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_07: Let's just look at the Miri on that on that to helm.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_07: Uh let's see.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_07: Actually, I don't know if Al Torah has all the Mi'iri on Talem now or just the Mi'iri's on the Tefila ones.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_07: Kuftes, which one is it?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_06: Kuf Tess.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_06: Let's just okay, Miri.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yay! Uh wait, which one?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_06: Kofhas.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_07: Yikalaluhema the Ata Tavarech, Kamuva Y Voshuv Abka Yismah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_07: Now I know we don't know the context.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_07: Kamu Via Voshu of Arbum Asid Klomar uh it doesn't tell us anything.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_06: All right, never mind.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_06: Uh where are we here?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_05: I mean he's like adding that one.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it's a it's a real, I mean, it's not a uh not a light addition, it's a whole different idea almost, right?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, the Brock one because the Bronck one, because it it's it's our our process doesn't say that, and it's stemming not even from his main idea, it's stemming from his application.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I I don't know.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I I would say like I would guess it's only in the application.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_07: Like if some Stom guy just curses me.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_07: Uh no, yeah, right.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_07: But if I'm engaged in Tokhaha, which is actually an objectively good action for me and for the person and for the society, I mean maybe maybe that's just the idea here, right?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_07: Is that like it's a mitzvah, it's good for me, both in terms of my recognition of the of the imperfection and also the Ramam's idea of anyone who has the ability to give to Khaha and does not do it, then your nitfaspauso avon, that you somehow partake of that avon.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_07: You know, like the the fact that you're not moved to do it, uh to give the rebuke, and then I'm benefiting my fellow.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_07: So that's good in all these ways, and then I'm benefiting the society because, like Marcus Riley says, what's good for the hive is good for the bees, you know.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh so I am doing something that is for potential good.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and there, and and and and it's and given the fact that the guy's claula is nothing, it's a very easy trade-off.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_07: I think maybe that's the idea, right?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_07: In other words, I am doing an objectively good action that may also even yield benefit for me, or likely will yield benefit for me.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_07: And this guy is just giving a curse that, like, sorry, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_07: It's not really gonna harm me.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_07: You know?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_07: So, so I I just want to get the the the the like what because when in the moment it's very difficult to do this, right?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_07: Because we treat a lot of um we give a lot of weight to people's uh social opinion.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_07: By the way, if anyone has not read Tim Urban's Mammoth Why You Should Stop Caring What Other People Think.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_07: This is a very, very good Tim Urban piece about why we care so much about social uh approval.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Isaac.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe the reason he's mentioning the broccoli here, even though it's it it's not really the the point of of this PUSIC, is that you know, if you if you're concerned about like the risk of something, you like you know, potential like you want you're considering something, but you know, they're concerned about potential harm.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say if you say, oh, the harm's not really gonna happen, then I'd say that like that can like mitigate you know, uh for the person that's gonna material it's gonna mitigate it, but not the the concern, but not necessarily like remove it entirely.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: But if you say, oh, if that thing happens, it's actually like it's actually gonna be good for you.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna be uh you know, then that may like completely removes your concern about it.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_07: Right, that's good, that's good, yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that's that's a good motivator.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_07: So it's not part of the idea necessarily, but it is part of you implementing the idea um by saying, yeah, yeah, it's a good exchange.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's why he's bringing it in here, even though it's not about really what it's about.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_07: I accept that.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_07: That's good.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_07: So then give us a quick mefarsh.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_07: They go back immediately.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_07: Can't kill some a call bhinam tashinam tashuvalov karaga.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_07: Hanigla vanisar Bizahad.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_07: So that also indicates to me that it is davka for the Kakan, because you're caring about your soul and the other person's soul.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, let's do this.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_07: I haven't seen this yet.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_07: Let's go to our new friend, one of our new friends, uh, who I actually put in the back of the packet this time, the Ravsheshis bin Yitzha Gurundi.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_07: So this is the one who um uh who tries to link up the Psukim uh and explain the flow.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so let's actually uh I actually meant to start this with him with him uh last time.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_07: So let's actually do Khavavala first.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_07: Kashelik Bukheites uh so after talking about how good it is to to speak in praise of the tzadikim and to uh to um be uh to look into their covet a lot, amr ata kihu ha hefeh bhiksil says it's the opposite for the kxil.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_07: Ki l nailahem covod, uh the covet is not good for them, the inu tov lasabri bishvacham is not good to praise them.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_07: Of all hatov hu lasabri bignusam, it's good to degrade them.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_07: The alpha pisha sipur hagnus ina mida tova, even though uh speaking degradingly is not a good mida, but can hu tov luganos esha'anashim ha gruim na odisapra bishvacham im ulai nimsa lahem shum mida tova.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_07: It's good to uh degrade people who are uh degenerate who are, you know, um, I don't know, it's people who are very degenerate, or it's very good to degrade degenerate people.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and to not speak of their praise, even if maybe there's a good mita in them.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_07: So this is something that is um uh I think the Ramam on uh uh Kolyamai Gidaludham Volomatasi Tov Luguf Elishtika, where the Ramam, I think that's where the Ramam goes into his whole thing about the different kinds of speech.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, oh a four and then five, right?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_07: He's I think he so starts off the five and then he gives his four.
• 39:57
  unknown: I don't remember.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_07: Um is worth looking into if you want to work on speech.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_07: What was that?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_07: Um no, no.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I think he in the five model one he has neutral.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_07: And uh I think in the four model one he doesn't uh uh classify that way.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good neutral, uh, yeah, yeah.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_07: The five is is chova good neutral bad user, right?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_07: And then in the um four model one, anyone remember the four model, the four one?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_04: Worst neutral.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_07: No, but it's not just it's a different classification system.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_07: Really?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_07: All right.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, he might say that elsewhere.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_07: Anyway, anyway, so it's good to do, but there, I'm the reason why I'm saying this is that's where the Ram talks about this topic about saying uh good uh things about Sadiqim so that you learn from their actions and that you also develop good emotions towards their actions.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_07: This is why I think that even if the proverbial art school biography uh like gets a bad rap, it is a good genre to like have people talking about um about good people.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_07: I wish Halibaya Art School had Roshine biographies, or they like degraded uh, you know, the Roshine.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_07: But uh, you know, it it is good.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_07: Um and again, I think it also goes against, you know, the who who gave a thing?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_07: Someone recently, oh Uri Pilachowski on Facebook posted a uh a thing about uh like why is it not enough in Torah just to be a nice guy?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_07: You know, uh so there's a lot of answers to that, but one of them is that stuff like this is that it is good to talk about the degradation of of uh of of Xelium so that we avoid their behavior, even though it's not like a nice guy thing to do.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe this isn't really a Michelle question, yeah.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_04: But how do we compare this to the sort of question, Mark?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that is a good uh good question in general.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, the the the general idea is that Latoelis is good.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_07: Uh it doesn't mean that you should say it.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_07: You have to be intelligent and turn off the recording.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_07: Uh you know, um, but uh but um but La Toeles is good.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_07: And if you talk to the Kovitz Klein, he'll give so many conditions about Latoales that you never are able to actually use it.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_07: But uh yeah, yeah, flame shot.
• 42:15
  unknown: Is that like a Russia?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_07: I don't think it's a Russia because it's Kxil, right?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_07: Anash and Grim Od and Bixil, right?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_07: Uh have a Buxil.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_07: And the puzzle is about a Xil.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, let's do our Posiko.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_07: Katibru Linud.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_07: Ata Yadabrap inam deburi hanimas viha asur.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, look, the two categories.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_07: So uh uh, I don't know what dibure, I don't know what kind of conjugation that is.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_07: Um, it's talking about statements or speech that is uh reprehensible and usur.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_07: So those two categories that we mentioned in the Rama Bahul Kalel Espineha'aram Bakinam, so to curse people uh wantonly, kamosha timsa anashim harbeh asher makalim es havirehem bakinam, beliep.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_07: You find a lot of people cursing their friends, uh bhakinam without any uh wrongdoing.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_07: And it's saying that uh just as a teapur, due to its lightness and its flightiness, um, is uh is like predisposed to like fly off, the in nach the nikba m bemachum, and it doesn't rest and be fixed in a place.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_07: Uh same and same thing a dror flies off constantly, can kilashinam ina nacha velotavo lami shu yi kaluloso acharshi kilashkinam.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so too, a kilashinam uh will not come to rest and will not come to the one who uh they curse, right?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_07: Since it is akilashinam, right?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_07: Meaning it's not gonna come to the cursee, right?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_07: It's just gonna fly off.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_07: Uh opposite of the yeah.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_07: Umiklal lav atashame.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_07: And uh I never know how to translate it in English.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_07: And out of the not case, you infer the affirmative case.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_07: I know there's probably some fancy Latin way to say that.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_07: Khalomar aval tavolumkal bokinam, meaning you you should infer it will go to the guy who cursed Bachinam, right?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_07: So notice the puzzle says it will not come to you, but it will come to him, which I don't know why he doesn't just say the Kriegsiv, right?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_07: It's the easy uh easy option.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_07: Uh he's here bezah kid shalom yeah who regilim bakah ki harbe anashim shogim bizat.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_07: So it's warning you not to be accustomed to this because many people err in this.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_07: So is this any new idea here?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_07: Beyond what we had.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's not really, I don't see really explaining it.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: We're just sort of saying like explaining of shot.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, explaining how to do it.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it's not explaining the the mechanics, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, and you think it's both Nimas and Usar?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so it's funny, he he he's saying that uh oh yeah, yeah, Nimas and User, right.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_07: I I guess it depends on how you're makal them.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_07: Uh like who's got his name is Assar?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_07: That's Usar.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and then if it's in a Lash and Hara or Onas Devarium way, that's also Usir, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um it is interesting he says that someone is specifically monster about this because a lot of people do.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I think that's generally true about Michelin.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, right, right.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, I think we should stop now, but this is uh this is a good good possibility.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_07: I think we got a lot on our own.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_07: Um that uh except for that that eerie point, which is uh sharp.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, uh thanks for coming.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Isaac.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just wanted to say that um the ideas that we've talked about, I've seen play out in detail very thoroughly.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so okay.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Always good.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_07: Share an example uh if you want.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I might send a voice note in the in the discussion chat.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_07: All right, bye.