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Preaching Christ in Season and Out with Tony Phelps · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I serve as the senior pastor of Stonyton Baptist Church in
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Paxinus,
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Pennsylvania.
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SPEAKER_00: And on today's episode, I'm thrilled
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SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.
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SPEAKER_00: And why it is so important as preachers, as pastors.
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That we convey and communicate the gospel,
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no matter where we are in scripture.
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SPEAKER_00: This was such a delightful conversation between Tony and I,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's actually a joy that I get to share it with you.
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SPEAKER_00: It's almost as if you're
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SPEAKER_00: I can't say enough
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SPEAKER_00: This was actually our third attempt to get this podcast recorded.
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We had a lot of technical difficulties that were just kind of
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precluding us and
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SPEAKER_00: precluding us,
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SPEAKER_00: but finally we got it to work.
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SPEAKER_00: We got everything to work.
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Just as it should And I think it has made for Just an enjoyable
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episode So
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hopefully you find this encouraging Hopefully you are blessed
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by what you listen to
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By what you're watching And that you come away just so
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encouraged By the good news
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that we have in Jesus And that this too Is good news for us
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right where we are So
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SPEAKER_00: be blessed,
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SPEAKER_00: be encouraged And thanks for watching or listening
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like the evil one hasn't wanted us to talk about this, Tony.
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I feel like something has always happened for you and I to not
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be able to converse
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SPEAKER_00: about preaching in the gospel and grace or something like that.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: It seems like he's opposed to that.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's against something in there.
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SPEAKER_00: Hey, Tony Phelps, it's so good to have you on the show today.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to talk with you.
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SPEAKER_00: You and I have interacted a lot online.
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I've been following you and just been always encouraged by all
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of these like just
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amazing little gospel nuggets you throw out there from all of
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these different
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SPEAKER_00: sources.
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SPEAKER_00: But it's good to chat with you.
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SPEAKER_00: You're a preacher.
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SPEAKER_00: You love reading Luther and Galatians.
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SPEAKER_00: So we have a lot of similarities.
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SPEAKER_00: But it's good to have you on.
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SPEAKER_00: How are you doing, Tony?
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SPEAKER_01: I'm doing very well.
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Thank you,
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Brad,
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for having me on for this,
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again,
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our third attempt to do this.
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SPEAKER_01: So exciting and hopeful.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, exciting and hopeful.
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SPEAKER_00: If you can,
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SPEAKER_00: really quick,
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SPEAKER_00: just kind of introduce yourself,
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SPEAKER_00: where you are,
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SPEAKER_00: where God has you,
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SPEAKER_00: and where your church is and whatnot.
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SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
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So I'm the pastor of Christ Our Hope Presbyterian Church in
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Charlestown,
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Rhode Island.
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SPEAKER_01: And I won't go into the long story,
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SPEAKER_01: but I served this church previously as a church planting pastor,
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SPEAKER_01: went and served a congregation in Colorado Springs and then in Allentown,
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SPEAKER_01: Pennsylvania.
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SPEAKER_01: and then came back.
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SPEAKER_01: I think it was in May of 2024.
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SPEAKER_01: I returned to Christ Our Hope and love to preach Christ from God's Word.
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SPEAKER_01: Love to be a minister of word and sacrament.
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SPEAKER_01: I have three really faithful, encouraging elders that I serve with.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful for that as well.
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SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's just Lord's Day worship.
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um we're an ordinary means of grace church when preaching
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Christ law and gospel
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from uh the whole bible so that's that's that our gig I guess
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that's a pretty good
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gig that's right what are some yeah you've mentioned that
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before and we had talked
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before um like the being called to plant there then being
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called to go somewhere
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SPEAKER_00: else and then being called to come back what
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What are some things that you would say that you have learned
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or what are some ways
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SPEAKER_00: that you've developed as a pastor,
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SPEAKER_00: as a preacher,
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as a quote-unquote man of faith in that season where you are
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away and now coming
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SPEAKER_00: back?
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Are there anything that is slightly different,
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perspectives different or anything like that?
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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obviously recognizing God's fatherly providence that all things
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come to us not by
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SPEAKER_01: chance,
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SPEAKER_01: but by his fatherly hand,
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SPEAKER_01: as the Heidelberg Catechism says.
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SPEAKER_01: I, you know, my wife and I are lifelong, were lifelong Rhode Islanders.
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SPEAKER_01: My sense of call to church planting in Rhode Island was,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: connected to people and place.
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And so my idea was I would continue to serve Christ our hope
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until I died in the
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SPEAKER_01: pulpit or something like that.
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SPEAKER_01: But God had other plans and providentially,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: we took a call to go to serve a united reformed
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SPEAKER_01: Church congregation in Colorado Springs,
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SPEAKER_01: which was also a church plant,
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SPEAKER_01: a struggling church plant,
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SPEAKER_01: and had a season there.
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And I think what God was teaching us,
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my wife and I both,
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was that we're pilgrims in this life.
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SPEAKER_01: We're His servants.
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SPEAKER_01: We go where He calls us.
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SPEAKER_01: And so we served for about five years in Colorado Springs.
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SPEAKER_01: There was a pull to get closer to family back east,
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SPEAKER_01: and God allowed for us to come as close as Allentown,
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SPEAKER_01: PA for a season and served another church,
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SPEAKER_01: an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Allentown.
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SPEAKER_01: Again, faithful elders there as well, hardworking men.
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SPEAKER_01: But that was also an experience where
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SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, be ready in season and out of season.
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SPEAKER_01: And that was during COVID.
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SPEAKER_01: And that was during,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: a pastoral transition,
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SPEAKER_01: me coming and following a pastor who had served almost,
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: 30 years there.
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SPEAKER_01: A godly, faithful man.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: But I was a different I am a different person.
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SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I'm a different kind of preacher.
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And so there was that out of season experience where I felt
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like the word wasn't
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SPEAKER_01: being received as it had been previously by God's kindness and mercy.
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SPEAKER_01: So that was another lesson the Lord taught was,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: can you preach Christ even when people don't get it?
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SPEAKER_01: They don't understand why you're doing it.
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SPEAKER_01: They don't like your style.
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You know,
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that wasn't true of everybody,
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but I definitely got some pushback on my approach.
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SPEAKER_01: And so it was,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: it's recognizing,
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SPEAKER_01: okay,
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SPEAKER_01: first of all,
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SPEAKER_01: there are idols of men's approval still in my heart.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, and I don't, how do I process criticism?
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SPEAKER_01: Which, you know, pastors get regularly and
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SPEAKER_01: But finding that I was obviously building some of my righteousness on,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: thinking I was preaching Christ and people would just say,
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SPEAKER_01: yay,
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SPEAKER_00: more.
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SPEAKER_01: Instead of saying, what are you doing?
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SPEAKER_01: We don't get it.
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SPEAKER_01: So I had some of that experience and that was good.
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SPEAKER_01: It humbled me for sure.
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SPEAKER_01: But, you know, so that was another lesson.
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SPEAKER_01: So pilgrims...
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Be ready in season and out of season when the Word is well
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received and appreciated
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SPEAKER_01: and when it's also not as well received.
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SPEAKER_01: So that was part of my, you know, our God is good.
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SPEAKER_01: He's taping us,
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SPEAKER_01: conforming us to the image of Christ,
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SPEAKER_01: showing us our remaining sin,
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SPEAKER_01: not to crush us,
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SPEAKER_01: but to drive us deeper into Christ.
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SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned pilgrims and providence.
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You need one more P word and you can be like a good Baptist
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with a three-point outline.
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SPEAKER_01: See, that's why I'm not right.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't do that.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's why I fail.
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SPEAKER_00: No, that's really good.
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It's amazing when you look back and see all the ways that God
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has been molding and shaping you.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's like, you know, the easy thing.
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It's easy in the sense that like it's easy to say now once you
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get all that clarity.
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Once You Get All That Hindsight Wow Look At Look At The Way
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God's Providence Was
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Shaping This Or Shaping Me Because Yeah I Think We Can Resonate
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I Can Resonate Just
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The Notion Of Feeling Like Pilgrims And Feeling Like Where Is
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God Calling Me At
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SPEAKER_00: Certain Times Or In Certain Places And
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SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing to see how God is using all of this for His glory,
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SPEAKER_00: using all of this for what He wants to do and not what I want to do.
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SPEAKER_00: You mentioned, go ahead, I'll let you respond to that.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, no, no, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: Amen.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
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SPEAKER_01: It's recognizing that we're His servants,
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SPEAKER_01: especially in the ministry of Word and Sacraments,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: we're replaceable.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a liberating reality as well.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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SPEAKER_01: we want to preach Christ,
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SPEAKER_01: we want to preach the gospel faithfully,
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SPEAKER_01: but we are utterly replaceable.
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SPEAKER_01: The well-being of the church does not depend on us, it depends on Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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SPEAKER_01: provides faithful servants to his church.
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Sometimes he sends less than faithful servants to his church as
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well because he's
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sovereign and he's refining ministers and congregations and all
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of us through that.
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SPEAKER_01: So anyway, that's part of the joys and the sorrows of ministry, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: is seeing that we are not as important as we think we are.
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SPEAKER_01: That's good when we get a grasp on that.
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SPEAKER_01: The powers in the gospel, not in my cleverness or my skills.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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it's entirely the sovereign work of God's grace through the
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means of grace that we
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SPEAKER_01: need to rely on.
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Yeah that's so true Tony and it's such a good point to make
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only because we can get
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so caught up in you know our own eloquence or wit or whatever
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but we are very
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SPEAKER_00: replaceable and that's not like you know some sort of
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SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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SPEAKER_00: Paul to prophetic ministry.
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And I just love the sequence of events that happens there and
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the sense that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: God is calling him.
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SPEAKER_00: He says, you know, I'm a youth.
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SPEAKER_00: I can't do this.
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SPEAKER_00: I can't speak.
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SPEAKER_00: And then God basically kind of dismisses those things.
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SPEAKER_00: And then he,
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SPEAKER_00: the next couple of words are that God is going,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm going to put my words in your mouth,
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SPEAKER_00: God tells him.
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SPEAKER_00: And then it's words that build up and destroy or words that pluck up and
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SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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SPEAKER_00: Can you kind of speak to that distinction?
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SPEAKER_00: Some folks may have confusion as what do we mean by law and gospel?
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SPEAKER_00: What is that?
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Is this just something that Luther just made up or where does
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it come from and why
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SPEAKER_00: is it so necessary?
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SPEAKER_01: Amen.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: the distinction between law and gospel,
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SPEAKER_01: we think about the Reformation,
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SPEAKER_01: we think about what it recovered.
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SPEAKER_01: It certainly recovered clarity on the gospel,
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SPEAKER_01: on justification by faith alone,
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SPEAKER_01: clarity on the authority of Scripture.
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But another very important recovery was the properly
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distinguishing law and gospel.
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SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't Luther
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imagining it,
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but he certainly experienced the confusion of law and gospel.
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and remember the story of Luther where he said okay it's not
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enough that God has to
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condemn me by the righteousness of his law but there's also
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this righteousness of
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the gospel in Romans 1 this revelation of God's righteousness
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in the gospel and he
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thought now Christ condemns me too so I have the condemnation
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of Moses the
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condemnation of Christ until he had that evangelical
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breakthrough right the
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SPEAKER_01: elimination of the Holy Spirit to see that this is a
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SPEAKER_01: A righteousness that is different from the righteousness of the law.
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It's a righteousness not that is demanded of me,
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but that God freely gives to me.
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SPEAKER_01: So that alien righteousness, that's the gospel.
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SPEAKER_01: That's what Christ has done for me outside of me,
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SPEAKER_01: not what the law demands of me,
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SPEAKER_01: which I cannot fulfill as a sinner.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the scriptures opened up to Luther.
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SPEAKER_01: They opened up to him especially to see,
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SPEAKER_01: like obviously in Galatians,
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SPEAKER_01: in the book of Romans,
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SPEAKER_01: that this is directly taught in Scripture.
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SPEAKER_01: As you look at how Romans is divided,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Paul,
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SPEAKER_01: after speaking in that introduction in Romans 1,
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SPEAKER_01: 16 and 17,
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SPEAKER_01: goes on then to exposit the law and how it condemns all of humanity,
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SPEAKER_01: you know.
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SPEAKER_01: Starrer
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SPEAKER_01: And then we have,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Romans 3 and the grand conclusion that there is,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: none righteous,
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SPEAKER_01: no,
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SPEAKER_01: not one,
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SPEAKER_01: that there is no justification by the works of the law.
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And that leads us to the exposition of the gospel beginning in
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verse 21 of Romans 3.
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SPEAKER_01: So Luther saw it exegetically.
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SPEAKER_01: It was,
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SPEAKER_01: it's there,
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SPEAKER_01: it's embedded in scripture,
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SPEAKER_01: especially revealed,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: with the coming of Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: The failure of Israel.
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As a nation to keep covenant with Yahweh over and over again
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failing and failing
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and failing and yet there was a promise in the prophets through
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the Old Testament
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scriptures like Jeremiah of a new covenant that would come
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right and it was always
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SPEAKER_01: by faith as it was with Abraham
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But the lesson of the law was to expose sin and to show our
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need for Christ,
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SPEAKER_01: not only Israel,
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but that that promise that was given to Abraham would go out to
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all nations and
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this good news of the gospel of a righteousness that is from
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God and that is
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SPEAKER_01: received by faith alone.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's the theological,
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SPEAKER_01: some of it,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: the theological background,
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SPEAKER_01: the exegetical background of the law gospel distinction.
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SPEAKER_01: And then we're going to bring that into preaching.
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SPEAKER_01: What's natural to us is the law.
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SPEAKER_01: What's natural to us is the covenant of works is sort of wired into us.
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SPEAKER_01: That is, you know, the idea of do this and live.
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SPEAKER_01: But that is now distorted because of sin.
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SPEAKER_01: That's now corrupted.
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SPEAKER_01: And so we think we can do it.
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SPEAKER_01: We think we can, you know, win God's favor by what we do.
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SPEAKER_01: And sadly,
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SPEAKER_01: a lot of bad preaching seems to affirm that,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: to say,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: if you just apply these principles,
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SPEAKER_01: God will bless you.
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That's the covenant of works kind of,
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you know,
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lightened up a little bit so it's not as severe.
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But the fact of the matter is God's law demands perfect
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obedience if you want to
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SPEAKER_01: seek blessing through it.
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SPEAKER_01: and then warns of a curse if you cannot perfectly keep it.
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So that's again to show us our need for the one who did,
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that Christ kept the law for us.
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SPEAKER_01: So we want to preach the law in all of its severity,
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SPEAKER_01: right,
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to show what it exposes us as sinners and shows us our absolute
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need for Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: And then we want
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to hear the gospel as 200 proof free grace secured for us by
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perfect obedience of
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Christ to that law for us and he went to the cross and bore the
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wrath of God in our
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place and that he satisfied the demands of God's law negatively
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obviously demanding
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SPEAKER_01: punishment for the sinner and fulfilled its righteousness and through the
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SPEAKER_01: righteousness that he attained for us
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is every blessing every every blessing that we have in Christ
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that is freely given
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to us and that is you know again received by a faith which
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itself is God's own gift
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and we want to build faith in our preaching that's really
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that's really the goal is
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that the reason we preach the gospel even to believers is
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because faith comes by
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SPEAKER_01: hearing and hearing by the word of Christ we want people to grow in
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Their apprehension of Christ We still have the flesh We still
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sin And we still try
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to justify ourselves And we need the law to beat that down And
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to be driven to
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SPEAKER_01: Christ And to be built up in Him In the grace and knowledge of Him
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I was thinking about that scene because I recently just
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preached on it in Exodus
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chapter 20 where of course God is giving his Ten Commandments
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the Decalogue to his
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SPEAKER_00: people and it struck me in such a piercing
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Fresh Way on this go around of studying that scene in a sense
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that he gives the law.
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SPEAKER_00: And of course, in verse 18, the people are just shaking in their sandals.
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SPEAKER_00: They can't bear to hear the severity of God's law,
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SPEAKER_00: so much so that they're like,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
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SPEAKER_00: we don't want God to talk to us anymore.
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SPEAKER_00: We want you, Moses, to talk to us.
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SPEAKER_00: But what struck me is that after
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Hearing the severity of the law and realizing that,
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man,
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this is way above and beyond us.
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I love the fact that the first set of further laws that God
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sort of articulates are
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SPEAKER_00: laws about altars,
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SPEAKER_00: which is so fascinating to me,
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SPEAKER_00: only because you get the sense of,
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SPEAKER_00: no,
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SPEAKER_00: you're not going to be able to keep these Ten Commandments,
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SPEAKER_00: but here's a place where
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SPEAKER_00: where you're going to be shown how you can still have communion with me,
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SPEAKER_00: namely an altar,
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SPEAKER_00: a place of death,
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SPEAKER_00: a place of blood,
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SPEAKER_00: a place of smoke and viscera.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: That's the place where God's people are shown that
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
19:22
SPEAKER_00: no,
19:22
SPEAKER_00: you can't keep perfect communion with me,
19:24
SPEAKER_00: but here's the place where that's going to happen.
19:27
Here's the place where that's going to be done for you so you
19:30
don't have to worry
19:31
SPEAKER_00: about how this is going to be able to continue even when you fail.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Amen, amen.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And even the preface,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:05
SPEAKER_01: it's rightly pointed out that the preface to the Ten Commandments,
20:07
SPEAKER_01: right,
20:08
is based on God's great written act of saving His people
20:12
sovereignly by His power
20:13
SPEAKER_01: through judgment,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: right?
20:15
Salvation through judgment and then giving them His law and
20:22
promising them
20:22
SPEAKER_01: blessings for obedience and warning them of curses for disobedience,
20:26
SPEAKER_01: but then making that great provision,
20:29
SPEAKER_01: as you said,
20:29
SPEAKER_01: of the altar,
20:30
SPEAKER_01: of the priesthood,
20:32
SPEAKER_01: of
20:33
the sacrifices and and the lesson that that taught was one that
20:39
you need a mediator
20:41
in order to have communion with God and you need a mediated
20:45
sacrifice in order to
20:47
have communion with God as a sinner but that those sacrifices
20:52
obviously as Hebrews
20:53
teaches were couldn't finally take away sin they were
20:57
provisional and they were
20:58
pointing forward to that final sacrifice that final altar of
21:01
the cross that
21:03
SPEAKER_01: That,
21:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:04
SPEAKER_01: the blood of Christ,
21:05
SPEAKER_01: which would give us access to the Father,
21:08
SPEAKER_01: through the Son,
21:09
SPEAKER_01: by the Spirit,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: an eternal covenant communion that cannot be broken now,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: that we're united to Christ by faith.
21:16
And that was anticipated and pointed forward to Christ and is
21:20
now fulfilled in him.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: But it's beautiful to see that,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: how Christ,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: as Jesus himself says,
21:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:28
you search the scriptures because you think by them you have
21:31
eternal life in John
21:32
SPEAKER_01: 5.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: These are they which testify of me, right?
21:37
SPEAKER_01: And as the risen Christ says,
21:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:39
SPEAKER_01: the law and the prophets and the Psalms all testify to me.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's beautiful to see that.
21:46
It's just beautiful to see how,
21:48
you know,
21:48
Christ is anticipated throughout the Old Testament.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: in promise,
21:54
SPEAKER_01: in prophecy,
21:56
SPEAKER_01: in the ceremonial law,
21:57
and then how the New Testament then becomes that interpretive
22:02
grid to show us this
22:04
SPEAKER_01: is how Christ has fulfilled the Old Testament.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: So you don't go back to the Old Testament as if Christ never came.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: That's some of the mistakes that people make in basic interpretation,
22:15
SPEAKER_01: saying,
22:15
SPEAKER_01: well,
22:15
SPEAKER_01: maybe it's all about Israel,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: or maybe it's about,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:19
SPEAKER_01: The law,
22:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:20
for nations to have a Christian nation by applying the Mosaic
22:25
law or whatever,
22:25
SPEAKER_01: theonomy,
22:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:28
SPEAKER_01: was another misguided project as well.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: No,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: it's,
22:32
SPEAKER_01: we let the New Testament now,
22:33
SPEAKER_01: the apostolic word of the New Testament,
22:35
SPEAKER_01: interpret the prophetic Old Testament.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: The entire Old Testament is prophetic in that sense.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's God.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
22:44
that moment in Luke 24 Luke 24 is my favorite chapter in the
22:48
whole Bible The Emmaus
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Road And he's talking to those two disciples You know,
22:53
all the things concerning himself And I've recently spoke about
22:58
it in some venue
22:59
SPEAKER_00: But I was using that notion of like
23:03
This is the hinge moment of how we understand or how we're made
23:06
to understand the
23:07
SPEAKER_00: scriptures in the sense that if you don't get this point,
23:11
SPEAKER_00: you're going to mess up everything that comes after,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: but also mess up everything that comes before.
23:15
It's sort of like,
23:17
you know,
23:17
I don't know if this is original to me,
23:19
but I'll use it.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: But it's sort of like the moment in, you know, Empire Strikes Back.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: When Vader reveals himself to be Luke Skywalker's father,
23:28
SPEAKER_00: that changes everything before and after.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And if you ignore that, you're going to really miss the story.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: You're going to miss what that story is supposed to be telling you.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think the same can be said for that moment on Emmaus Road.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: It's a pivot point.
23:48
And then when he goes and when Jesus Christ eventually meets up
23:51
with the rest of
23:51
SPEAKER_00: the apostles and he says,
23:53
SPEAKER_00: like,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: this must have happened in fulfillment
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Chris
24:12
SPEAKER_00: John Ross
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's just, you know, beautiful to see, like, Luke 24, John 5.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Another passage that I really love is at the end of Romans,
24:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:48
SPEAKER_01: in Romans 16,
24:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:50
SPEAKER_01: as Paul is closing out this grand exposition,
24:53
SPEAKER_01: of the law and the gospel,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: he says in verse 25,
24:57
Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel
25:01
and the preaching of
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Jesus Christ,
25:05
According to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since
25:08
the world began,
25:10
but now made manifest and by prophetic scriptures made known to
25:15
all nations.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: That little phrase is so amazing.
25:20
According to the commandment of the everlasting God for
25:22
obedience to the faith,
25:23
SPEAKER_01: to God alone wise be glory through Jesus Christ forever.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And just that,
25:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:29
it's now through the prophetic scriptures and you see what the
25:32
Apostle Paul does,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: in Romans,
25:35
he argues from the Old Testament for the fulfillment that has
25:39
come in Christ.
25:40
You see,
25:41
you know,
25:42
for example,
25:43
in Romans 4,
25:44
where he's arguing against the
25:48
SPEAKER_01: his former colleagues among the Pharisees,
25:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:52
SPEAKER_01: who would think that his gospel is something brand new,
25:55
SPEAKER_01: never before heard.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, we're about the law of Moses.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: What is this gospel you're talking about?
26:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's the same gospel that Abraham believed, right?
26:05
You know,
26:06
in Genesis 15,
26:07
how he was justified by faith in this same gospel promise.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: And then David,
26:12
who knows the blessedness of the one whose transgressions are
26:14
forgiven in Psalm 32.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: So
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Robert C.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: in that,
26:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:33
SPEAKER_01: Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: that he was buried,
26:38
SPEAKER_01: that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures.
26:40
It's as simple as that,
26:42
but it's as rich and deep as wide and wide as Genesis to
26:46
Revelation.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's full of who Christ is.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: what he's done what he has won for his people ultimately consummated in
26:58
resurrection glory in a new heavens and a new earth where God
27:02
himself will wipe
27:03
away every tear from our eyes so it will be no more sin or
27:06
suffering or death and
27:07
the former things will have passed away forever all won for us
27:11
by the righteousness
27:13
the righteous life the sin atoning death the glorious
27:17
resurrection of our of our
27:19
SPEAKER_01: savior amen
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking this as well because you mentioned it a little bit ago,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: this notion of confusion regarding the law and the gospel.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: I would say that this is not an inherently new thing.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned, Luther was maybe...
27:41
We could say like a victim of law gospel confusion in his day
27:44
and I think that that
27:45
is still the case in the sense that that either confusing of
27:49
these two words of God
27:52
or also the collapsing of of the law and the gospel either way
27:58
it leads to this
28:00
Very misguided,
28:01
but also I would say very morose view of what the faith is.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Can you speak to that confusion and why it seems to be so persistent,
28:13
SPEAKER_00: other than just saying that,
28:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: we're sinners,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: but we're prideful,
28:18
SPEAKER_00: but where does this confusion come from and why is it so pervasive?
28:24
Yeah,
28:25
the Bible is a big book and people can quote verse it out of
28:29
context,
28:30
right?
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Proof texting is, yeah, that's a good point.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
28:34
SPEAKER_01: and that's part of the dangers because,
28:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: many,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: like Luther himself,
28:40
obviously there was also the traditions of the Roman Catholic
28:44
Church that had
28:44
SPEAKER_01: developed over time in the medieval Roman Catholic Church about,
28:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:49
the authority of the church and what do the sacraments mean and
28:52
all of those
28:52
SPEAKER_01: things.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: But the idea of the confusion of law and gospel is,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: there's credibility when a Bible teacher is
29:02
SPEAKER_01: is quoting, you know, I'm quoting the Bible.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: I believe the Bible is the word of God.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: The Judaizers in Galatia believe that the Bible is the word of God.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: They believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead.
29:15
But what they also believed was you needed to do the works of
29:18
the law in order to
29:19
SPEAKER_01: be justified,
29:20
SPEAKER_01: right?
29:21
SPEAKER_01: So understanding the distinction, what is the law?
29:25
SPEAKER_01: The law is God's word of command.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: And it requires strict obedience and perfect obedience,
29:34
SPEAKER_01: and it threatens his wrath as we fail that perfect obedience.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: That's the law as the covenant of works.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: But even as the Westminster larger catechism gives its exposition of law,
29:49
SPEAKER_01: it reminds us that that perfect demand is not lessened.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: It's still there in the law, right?
29:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's inherent
29:57
SPEAKER_01: To that, it's the will of God.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: It reflects the character of God.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: This is what righteousness looks like.
30:02
This is what the image of God was meant to reflect among his
30:09
creatures who are made
30:10
SPEAKER_01: in his image,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: his human representatives.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: We were supposed to reflect God's moral character and to do so perfectly.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: The law has a perfect standard.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: We can't diminish that.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: We can't soften that.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: And that's what some preachers will do.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, and I'll name an error, Federal Vision error.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: You know,
30:35
one of the errors attendant with that was the idea or is the
30:40
idea that there's
30:42
SPEAKER_01: gospel in the law and law and the gospel.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: You know,
30:45
SPEAKER_01: the law is good news to the believer because now,
30:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:47
SPEAKER_01: because we see God's wisdom in it and we see God's character in it.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: So therefore, it's good news to us.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, we do see God's wisdom in it.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: We do see God's character in it.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: But that's bad news for sinners.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: It's not good news, right?
31:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: It drives us to see what the gospel gives us.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: The gospel as the word of God is a word of promise.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: It's the word of what Christ has
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bradley
31:29
which we are called to believe and believing it we receive the
31:32
fullness of what
31:33
Christ has done for us in our justification that he's also
31:37
promised to sanctify us
31:39
and that he will indeed glorify us so salvation is entirely of
31:44
the Lord that's the
31:45
gospel it's the good news of what God has done freely for
31:50
sinners in Jesus Christ
31:52
SPEAKER_01: and there's no none of our obedience is part of that
31:58
We talk about a third use for the law and that's legitimate and
32:01
it's the rule of gratitude.
32:03
We do see the law now in the hand of our risen Savior who is
32:08
our righteousness.
32:09
We love the law because it reflects His character and we know
32:14
that we're being
32:15
conformed to the image of Christ in our sanctification and
32:18
we're walking in real
32:20
SPEAKER_01: new obedience but an obedience that is never perfect,
32:24
SPEAKER_01: that never perfectly
32:25
Steve McLaughlin We continually see our need for Christ,
32:29
for His perfect righteousness.
32:31
We continue to see our need for the empowering of the Holy
32:35
Spirit and our sanctification.
32:37
So we never say,
32:40
yeah,
32:40
I've been there,
32:41
I've done that,
32:42
when we look at the law.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: We say Christ went there and did that for me.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: That's my own confidence is what he's done.
32:52
And a proper understanding of the third use of the law will
32:55
always reflect that.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's a Heidelberg Catechism, of course.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I love free forms of unity.
33:02
I also love the Westminster Standards and subscribe to them as
33:04
a Presbyterian minister.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: But in terms of pastoral...
33:09
SPEAKER_01: comfort and application.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: I really love the Heidelberg Catechism.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: And I just want to share based on what I was just saying about,
33:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:21
SPEAKER_01: what role did the Ten Commandments then play in our lives?
33:23
SPEAKER_01: We're distinguishing law and gospel.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: The law is perfect, and it always shows us our sin.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: We can't get away from that, right?
33:31
SPEAKER_01: So how does it operate in our Christian lives as a rule of gratitude?
33:36
Why does God want the law still preached to the Christian as
33:40
well as the gospel?
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Well,
33:43
SPEAKER_01: question and answer 115 of the Heidelberg says,
33:46
SPEAKER_01: since no one in this life can keep the Ten Commandments perfectly,
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Why does God want them preached so pointedly?
33:53
SPEAKER_01: So don't let up on the perfection of the law.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: It has to be preached pointedly.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: This is what God demands.
34:01
Well,
34:01
first,
34:02
so that all our life long,
34:04
we may more and more come to know our sinful nature.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: It continues to show us our sins.
34:09
And thus more eagerly seek the forgiveness of sins and
34:12
righteousness of Christ.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: It continues to point us to Christ for that perfect righteousness.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: And then the second part having to do with our sanctification.
34:21
So that we may never stop striving and never stop praying to
34:24
God for the grace of
34:25
SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit.
34:26
So that we may be renewed more and more after God's image as we
34:30
go to Christ by faith.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: I added that myself, by the way.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: So after this life, we reach our goal, perfection.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: There's no perfection in this life,
34:39
SPEAKER_01: but it's something we long for,
34:41
SPEAKER_01: that glory,
34:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:43
the completion of the salvation that Christ has won for us will
34:46
finally be given to
34:47
SPEAKER_01: us.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: We look forward to that.
34:49
That's why we say,
34:50
wretched man that I am,
34:51
who will deliver me from this body of death.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
34:57
That's our eschatological hope that we will be perfectly
35:01
conformed to Christ's image.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: And that will be his bestowing that upon us again as an act of his grace.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: We'll be fully conformed body and soul to his righteousness.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: We'll love God perfectly.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: We'll love one another perfectly.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: We'll reflect.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: We'll be fully and perfectly human image bearers of God.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: Thanks to Christ.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: That's the restaurant we look forward to.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And what's fascinating is...
35:27
That when the law and the gospel get collapsed,
35:31
actually that lessens both.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: It kind of diminishes both.
35:36
You diminish the severity of the law by thinking that you can
35:41
just make it a little
35:41
SPEAKER_00: bit doable,
35:43
SPEAKER_00: or by the same token,
35:45
SPEAKER_00: you also diminish the marvel of grace,
35:49
SPEAKER_00: which takes...
35:52
Depraved sinners such as you and I that rightly deserve
35:57
eternity in hell.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: And it becomes more of like a plaster just filling in our good works,
36:02
SPEAKER_00: just making them a little bit better,
36:03
SPEAKER_00: a little bit more appealing to the eyes of the Father.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: But instead, that's not at all what grace is.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: It's literally a message of resurrection.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: My mind was going towards those prophetic words in Ezekiel.
36:20
Obviously Ezekiel has a lot of harsh passages which could
36:25
remind us again of the
36:26
severity of God's law which expose our sin and expose our
36:32
abject resistance towards
36:35
SPEAKER_00: anything to do with the Father.
36:37
And yet by the same token we have those words of promise that
36:39
come out of the mouth
36:41
of Ezekiel that are declared by the Lord where he's constantly
36:44
telling him
36:46
I will do this I think I counted at one time in chapters 36 and
36:50
37 like there's 30
36:53
odd maybe even more some instances of God telling him and he's
36:58
by proxy telling his
36:59
SPEAKER_00: people I'm going to do this
37:01
I'm gonna plant I'm gonna rebuild I'm gonna bring you here I'm
37:04
gonna bring you
37:04
there I'm gonna settle you I'm gonna stab all of these things
37:07
that I will which are
37:09
words of promise it's God speaking his gospel to his people and
37:15
of course that's
37:16
all coupled in within that amazing scene where he shows him the
37:19
vision of dry bones
37:21
SPEAKER_00: that are raised back to life it's a perfect
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Just representation,
37:26
SPEAKER_00: illustration of what happens when the gospel is preached rightly,
37:31
SPEAKER_00: when God's law and gospel are preached rightly.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: This is what occurs.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Dead sinners are raised to life.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: And it's nothing to do with Ezekiel.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't his wife.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: Pastor Bracken
38:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, and as preachers, right, that takes the pressure off of us.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, we want to be faithful.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: We want to be clear.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: But we don't need necessarily to be clever.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, a good illustration here or there is helpful for sure.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: But we want to be—we want to let the Word of Christ—
38:33
SPEAKER_01: Sound Forth.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: We want the preaching,
38:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:37
and I think it's the second Helvetic Confession says the
38:40
preaching of the Word of
38:41
SPEAKER_01: God is the Word of God.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: And what it means is when we are faithfully preaching law and gospel,
38:48
SPEAKER_01: God is speaking to His people.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: Christ is speaking by His Spirit.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: And He is doing that work which only He can do,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: which,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: as you've said,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: is to pluck up our self-righteousness,
39:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Knock down our pride,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:04
SPEAKER_01: and plant us in Christ and plant us in the righteousness of Christ,
39:09
SPEAKER_01: that he is our righteousness,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: that he is our life,
39:12
SPEAKER_01: that he is our hope of glory,
39:14
SPEAKER_01: he is our sanctification,
39:16
SPEAKER_01: and to make Christ our all.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: And as scripture says over and over again,
39:21
SPEAKER_01: it's not,
39:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Ephesians 2 famously,
39:23
not by works lest anyone should boast that our boast would be
39:27
only in Christ
39:28
SPEAKER_01: because God is going to get all the glory.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't share his glory.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't share his glory with his creatures.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: He reflects his glory to us.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
39:40
SPEAKER_01: He shows his glory to us.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: He glorifies himself in saving sinners who cannot save themselves.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: And we need to let him get the glory.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's why we want to properly distinguish the law and the gospel.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: The law brings us to an end.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: of ourselves and then brings us to Christ who is the end of the law for
40:00
SPEAKER_01: righteousness to all who believe.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about this earlier as well before we got on.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about a book that I would say is rather underrated,
40:15
SPEAKER_00: at least in my circles sometimes,
40:18
SPEAKER_00: which is the book Christless Christianity.
40:20
by Michael Horton which I think does a fantastic job of showing
40:24
the ways in which
40:26
this distinction that we're referring to the distinction
40:29
between God's law and
40:30
SPEAKER_00: God's gospel is way more pervasive than what we think
40:35
SPEAKER_00: And it appears in many of our familiar church circles,
40:39
as well as you can kind of see a remix of it within the
40:43
prosperity gospel scene,
40:46
SPEAKER_00: which they're kind of doing the same bait and switch,
40:49
SPEAKER_00: wherein they're kind of making
40:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
40:53
SPEAKER_00: God's holiness or the righteousness of God,
40:55
SPEAKER_00: sort of like this carrot that's dangled at the,
40:58
SPEAKER_00: the end of the stick of your performance.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: And they're,
41:02
SPEAKER_00: they're doing that with different language,
41:03
SPEAKER_00: but they're doing the same thing,
41:04
SPEAKER_00: which again inverts
41:07
SPEAKER_00: what Jesus has come to give.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: I've always been fascinated by,
41:13
SPEAKER_00: as well,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: the confusion surrounding the Sermon on the Mount,
41:18
SPEAKER_00: which essentially is very paralleled towards what occurs on Mount Sinai.
41:22
And yet at the end after he's taken all of these people in this
41:26
crowd through
41:27
describing what it would look like to enter the kingdom of God
41:31
with a righteousness
41:32
that's even greater than the Pharisees as he begins that sermon
41:35
which I always
41:36
SPEAKER_00: think...
41:37
That must have been just an amazing word to hear you know like
41:40
here's these
41:41
Pharisees who are all like just so proud they're like proud as
41:44
peacocks and then
41:45
he's like you need a righteousness better than theirs which
41:48
would have made them
41:48
mad and made everyone else just so depressed because these are
41:52
the most righteous
41:53
SPEAKER_01: people in the neighborhood That's right exactly
41:57
SPEAKER_00: But by the end of it,
41:58
he ends on that amazing illustration of the person building
42:03
their house on a rock
42:04
SPEAKER_00: versus the person building their house on sand,
42:06
SPEAKER_00: which is the dichotomy of faith versus unfaith,
42:10
SPEAKER_00: which is faith in your
42:12
in your ability and your merits and your capabilities to earn
42:17
favor with God,
42:18
SPEAKER_00: which is akin to building a house on sand.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: It's never gonna last.
42:22
It's never going to be sturdy enough versus building your house
42:26
on a rock.
42:27
The parallels and the analogies are so blatant,
42:32
it kind of preaches itself.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: But that's the great thing about what Christ was doing,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: is that he was pointing to himself as not only the telos of the law,
42:43
SPEAKER_00: but also its fulfillment,
42:45
the one who is going to fulfill it so that he gives us what the
42:49
law demands.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly right.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
42:57
Michael Horton Crisis Christianity that that you know highly
43:03
recommend that book
43:04
it's slightly dated you know now yeah some of the but but it's
43:08
still he should
43:09
write an updated version right exactly it's still I mean what
43:14
his positive you know
43:16
the positive alternative that he's offering all along the way
43:20
is obviously
43:20
SPEAKER_01: unchanging but and and so is the underlying moralizing of
43:26
SPEAKER_01: Scripture that we typically hear.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: He talks about moralistic,
43:31
SPEAKER_01: therapeutic deism,
43:32
SPEAKER_01: right,
43:33
SPEAKER_01: as sort of characteristic of American evangelicalism.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: And that's still true.
43:39
It basically means that,
43:40
you know,
43:41
the Bible's a book of principles for living.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: God wants us to be.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: So that's the moralistic side of it.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: It's therapeutic, meaning, you know, God wants us to be happy.
43:53
and healthy and the Bible gives us those therapeutic principles
43:57
to do that to heal
43:58
SPEAKER_01: us in our in our hurts and then deism
44:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, which is like God doesn't really need to be actively involved.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: If you just apply these principles, they will work in and of themselves.
44:10
You know,
44:11
so you just need to learn the principles and do them and it'll
44:14
work for you.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: You know,
44:16
SPEAKER_01: so there's pragmatism there too implied,
44:18
but the deistic idea that God doesn't need to be personally
44:21
involved in actually
44:22
SPEAKER_01: saving you.
44:23
He's given you the blueprint to save yourself effectively or to
44:28
attain the blessing
44:29
SPEAKER_01: that you are,
44:31
SPEAKER_01: that you want.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Steve McLaughlin So, yeah, he's great at that diagnostic.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, the remedy is the biblical gospel.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: It's the attainments of the Reformation,
44:54
SPEAKER_01: which are biblical attainments,
44:56
SPEAKER_01: namely the centrality of Christ.
44:59
the means of grace and the right distinction between the law
45:02
and the gospel.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: There's a great quote from Luther on that from a commentary,
45:11
SPEAKER_01: his commentary on Galatians,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: which says,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: I must listen to the gospel.
45:17
It tells me not what to do,
45:19
but what Jesus Christ,
45:21
the Son of God,
45:21
has done for me.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, Luther has
45:26
SPEAKER_01: Obviously a way,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: a wonderful way with words to,
45:29
SPEAKER_01: and with his use of antithesis,
45:31
SPEAKER_01: even as he's talking about law and gospel,
45:34
SPEAKER_01: that is the gospel.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not telling you to do anything.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: It's telling you what Christ has done for you.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: But every, so many times, preachers are telling you what to do.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Here's your to-do list for the week, right?
45:48
Here's,
45:49
you know,
45:49
the Bible has to have,
45:50
you know,
45:51
the sermon has to have application.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: And here are the three steps of application as the sermon closes.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: So what does it do?
45:56
SPEAKER_01: That will put you back, right, under a law.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: It might be a light law.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: It's not a law that kills you.
46:05
But it's still a law,
46:07
you know,
46:08
that you need to do this with this sermon.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: It's a call to action instead of a means of grace, right?
46:15
SPEAKER_01: That's typical preaching today.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's even how we're taught to preach.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
46:20
SPEAKER_01: well,
46:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:21
SPEAKER_01: you want to get them to do something,
46:22
SPEAKER_01: so you're going to persuade them to action.
46:25
It's like,
46:25
okay,
46:26
if we're viewing preaching as a means of grace and we're giving
46:30
the gospel—
46:32
SPEAKER_01: The Gospel is doing something, right?
46:36
SPEAKER_01: It's conveying Christ to His people by His Spirit.
46:40
It's working to sanctify them even by hearing that Gospel and
46:45
having faith stirred up.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean there is an application,
46:49
but those imperatives of the Christian life are absolutely and
46:54
necessarily grounded
46:56
SPEAKER_01: in the gospel of what Christ has done for us.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: So we're,
47:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:01
SPEAKER_01: the command to forgive,
47:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:04
SPEAKER_01: famously in Ephesians 4,
47:05
SPEAKER_01: beautifully in Ephesians 4,
47:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:07
SPEAKER_01: forgive as God in Christ forgave you.
47:12
So view of that gospel word of I am utterly and completely
47:16
forgiven for the sake of
47:17
SPEAKER_01: Christ alone.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's the word that God speaks to me in the gospel.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: And in view of that and strengthened by that and enabled by that,
47:26
SPEAKER_01: I am to forgive those who have wronged me.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good, Tony.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think it
47:34
SPEAKER_00: That's a really good point to make because I'm not the only one.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: I know pastors everywhere have kind of been brought into these types of
47:43
conversations regarding either too much application or too
47:46
little or we want more
47:47
SPEAKER_00: of this or that.
47:49
And it kind of speaks to this notion of what the preaching
47:52
event is for,
47:53
of what
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Steve McLaughlin
48:10
SPEAKER_00: Pastor Bradley Grace
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Amen Amen Amen
49:05
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: And that,
49:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:06
SPEAKER_01: probably one of the go-to passages for me,
49:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:11
SPEAKER_01: as a preacher,
49:13
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
49:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:14
SPEAKER_01: you've got Romans 10 is wonderful,
49:16
SPEAKER_01: Ezekiel 37 is wonderful.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: But,
49:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:21
SPEAKER_01: I think of 2 Corinthians,
49:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:25
SPEAKER_01: chapter 3,
49:26
SPEAKER_01: where there's this contrast between the law and the gospel.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: But implicitly,
49:32
Paul is talking about the gospel that he preaches and what that
49:35
gospel does versus
49:37
SPEAKER_01: what the law does,
49:38
SPEAKER_01: right?
49:40
You know,
49:40
so he goes into saying that,
49:45
like in verse 4 of 2 Corinthians 3,
49:48
SPEAKER_01: And we have such trust through Christ toward God,
49:52
not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as
49:56
being from
49:57
SPEAKER_01: ourselves,
49:57
SPEAKER_01: but our sufficiency is from God.
49:59
And that's a huge comfort to me as a preacher,
50:01
feeling my own,
50:03
right,
50:03
my own
50:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sufficient I can't save anybody I can't sanctify anybody but our
50:10
sufficiency is from God he has made us sufficient as ministers
50:15
of the new covenant
50:16
now he's talking Paul is about his own apostolic authority but
50:21
it extends to us
50:22
SPEAKER_01: we're also ministers of a new covenant as we preach this apostolic word
50:27
And then he says,
50:29
not of the letter,
50:30
but of the spirit for the letter kills.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: There's the effect of God's word of law.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: It kills, but the spirit gives life.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: And as you were saying, how does he do that?
50:41
SPEAKER_01: He does that through the gospel.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: And he goes on to say,
50:45
SPEAKER_01: But at the ministry of death,
50:46
SPEAKER_01: written and engraved on stones,
50:48
SPEAKER_01: was glorious,
50:49
SPEAKER_01: clearly referring to the Ten Commandments,
50:52
so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the
50:55
face of Moses because
50:56
SPEAKER_01: of the glory of his countenance,
50:58
SPEAKER_01: which glory was passing away.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: Again, that temporary nature of the Mosaic Covenant itself.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: How will the ministry of the Spirit
51:08
Not Be More Glorious For The Ministry Of Condemnation That's
51:12
The Law Had Glory The
51:15
SPEAKER_01: Ministry Of Righteousness That's The Gospel Exceeds Much More In Glory
51:23
SPEAKER_01: goes on to talk about beholding the face of Christ in the gospel, right?
51:29
SPEAKER_01: Verse 17,
51:30
SPEAKER_01: now the Lord is the spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is,
51:33
SPEAKER_01: there is liberty,
51:34
SPEAKER_01: sorry,
51:34
but we all with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the
51:39
glory of the Lord.
51:39
We're in the gospel and we are being transformed into the same
51:45
image from glory to
51:46
SPEAKER_01: glory,
51:47
SPEAKER_01: just as the Lord
51:50
SPEAKER_01: Just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: So that's sanctification.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: That's progressive sanctification from glory to glory without happening.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: It's happening through the preaching of the gospel.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: That's the amazing thing that God is doing when the law is preached.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: There's death and condemnation.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: And when the gospel is preached by the spirit,
52:11
SPEAKER_01: there is life and righteousness,
52:13
SPEAKER_01: the righteousness of Christ,
52:14
SPEAKER_01: that external word that delivers us from condemnation,
52:18
SPEAKER_01: that delivers us from death,
52:20
SPEAKER_01: you know?
52:20
SPEAKER_01: And so that just encourages me.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: So like when I go into the pulpit and I preach,
52:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:28
that's what I meditate on most every Lord's Day morning when I
52:31
preach because
52:33
SPEAKER_01: that's just a reminder.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: The Spirit, Holy Spirit, please work.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: Please help me to make the gospel clear,
52:42
SPEAKER_01: and please give ears to hear,
52:45
SPEAKER_01: hearts to receive this life-giving,
52:49
SPEAKER_01: justifying,
52:50
SPEAKER_01: sanctifying word of Christ.
52:52
Granted,
52:53
you know,
52:53
granted by your spirit,
52:55
because I am not sufficient for it.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
52:58
SPEAKER_00: well,
52:59
SPEAKER_00: that's a good word for preachers,
53:00
SPEAKER_00: for sure,
53:00
SPEAKER_00: for everyone,
53:01
SPEAKER_00: but especially preachers who...
53:04
We can be tempted to believe in our own sufficiency because of
53:07
what we've studied,
53:08
SPEAKER_00: what we've read,
53:08
SPEAKER_00: what we've mastered,
53:10
SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
53:12
SPEAKER_00: And yet,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: as we realize,
53:14
SPEAKER_00: even the great apostle Paul was understanding of his own limitations,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: of his own insufficiency.
53:20
And I think that there's a lot of great solidarity that we can
53:25
have when we
53:25
SPEAKER_00: understand that,
53:26
SPEAKER_00: no,
53:27
SPEAKER_00: we're not sufficient for these things,
53:28
SPEAKER_00: but there's one who is,
53:29
SPEAKER_00: and he's not us,
53:30
SPEAKER_00: which is a really good word.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amen.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: You know,
53:35
you mentioned earlier some pushback that you had received at
53:41
different places,
53:42
SPEAKER_00: perhaps,
53:42
SPEAKER_00: in terms of your approach.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: Can you speak a little bit to that and just the notion of this,
53:50
SPEAKER_00: maybe we could say stubbornness to preach Christ and Him crucified?
53:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: Where that pushback comes from and kind of when and where it arises.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
54:04
One of the things I think is that's important was important for
54:08
me to obviously I'm
54:11
a sinner I'm hurt by criticism and I need to go to the Lord
54:15
with that and ask you
54:17
know his forgiveness for my pride but also to love the people
54:22
that are bringing the
54:23
SPEAKER_01: criticism
54:26
SPEAKER_01: And to recognize that in some cases, this is what they know.
54:31
This is the kind of preaching they were exposed to when they
54:35
listen to Christian
54:36
SPEAKER_01: radio or they listen to a podcast or a sermon podcast or something.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: This is what I think is good preaching and I don't know why that is.
54:49
I don't know that it's because the speaker is using good
54:53
rhetorical skills to kind
54:57
SPEAKER_01: of motivate me or give me an emotional,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: sentimental touch or something like that.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: That's possible.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: But this is what they know.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: This is what they've been under.
55:10
So the pushback comes from this is what I think good preaching
55:14
is and it's going to
55:16
SPEAKER_01: call me to action.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: It's going to tell me what to do.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: That's going to be what's the point of the sermon.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: That's the emphasis of the sermon.
55:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm not expecting to hear Christ.
55:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm not expecting to
55:28
SPEAKER_01: receive the gospel.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm a Christian.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't need the gospel.
55:32
SPEAKER_01: I need principles or Christian living.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: That's what every preacher tells me.
55:35
SPEAKER_01: Every other preacher tells me.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: So there's an expectation created, right?
55:40
SPEAKER_01: Because this is the preaching that many, many dear Christians hear.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: So we have to be patient.
55:46
In God's kind providence,
55:48
I've seen people grow into that and grow into understanding
55:51
that.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: Ah, now I get it.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: And I want to hear this kind of preaching now.
55:59
Now,
56:00
there's a deconstruction,
56:02
if you will,
56:04
of an appetite for legal preaching.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: And by the Holy Spirit's work, you know...
56:11
SPEAKER_01: and aptitude or taste now for the gospel.
56:15
SPEAKER_01: I want to hear that.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: I need it.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: I see that I need it.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: So I've seen that happen.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: But along the way, there's some stubborn sheep.
56:23
SPEAKER_01: They're like,
56:23
SPEAKER_01: no,
56:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:25
I don't know what you're trying to do when you're preaching and
56:26
I don't like it.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: You need to change.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you listen to this guy?
56:30
SPEAKER_01: Here's a sermon for you to listen to, to learn how to preach, preacher.
56:33
You know,
56:34
so you get kind of that pushback and it's like,
56:37
okay,
56:38
you know what I mean?
56:39
SPEAKER_01: I
56:40
I'm gonna continue to preach Christ I'm gonna tell you I'm
56:42
gonna teach you to I'm
56:44
trying to if you'll receive it I want to tell you this is what
56:49
I'm doing this is
56:50
this is why I'm doing it this is what the Bible says about what
56:53
we should expect
56:55
the gospel to do but the gospel is still God's power for the
56:58
salvation of everyone
56:59
who believes not only for justification but even for our
57:02
sanctification and that's
57:04
SPEAKER_01: why I'm doing this so yeah
57:06
You try to teach You're patient You're charitable You take your
57:12
hurt feelings to
57:13
SPEAKER_01: the Lord Yeah And say,
57:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
57:16
SPEAKER_01: Lord,
57:17
SPEAKER_01: please help It's discouraging sometimes And,
57:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
57:21
pastors need to be receiving the gospel That's why I read
57:26
Luther so much That's
57:28
SPEAKER_01: where I go for my gospel comfort Is that,
57:31
SPEAKER_01: okay,
57:32
SPEAKER_01: this is someone who honestly speaks about
57:36
My sinfulness My proneness to self-justification And
57:41
continually points me to
57:42
Christ And my need for the gospel And I need to feed on that
57:46
gospel Even when I'm
57:47
being criticized For preaching it too much or whatever What are
57:52
some ways that
57:52
SPEAKER_00: you've been
57:54
SPEAKER_00: able to kind of navigate those seasons of discouragement.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: Like,
57:58
SPEAKER_00: is there a place you go,
57:59
SPEAKER_00: like you just said Luther and Galatians,
58:01
SPEAKER_00: but is there something,
58:03
SPEAKER_00: when you've received that type of quote-unquote feedback,
58:07
SPEAKER_00: is there a place you go to warm your soul again,
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SPEAKER_00: to refresh your heart and mind again?
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Yeah,
58:15
and it,
58:15
you know,
58:16
there have been seasons where I'm like,
58:19
maybe I'm not cut out for this.
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SPEAKER_01: Honestly, there's been...
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Almost discouragement unto resignation from ministry.
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SPEAKER_01: That's happened every time in my life.
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SPEAKER_01: I've been in ministry.
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SPEAKER_00: Has that been true of like every pastor ever?
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe, I think.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: That often happens on a Monday morning.
58:39
You know,
58:39
you're like,
58:40
I don't know,
58:41
maybe I could drive a truck or something.
58:45
SPEAKER_01: So I've gone, I have gone through that.
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SPEAKER_01: And the Lord uses that, right?
58:50
SPEAKER_01: It's a recognition that
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You Know Our Father Is Good He's Kind He Uses These Things To
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Refine Us Including Criticism
59:03
SPEAKER_01: That we hide ourselves in Christ.
59:05
And talking to other pastors who have struggled with it,
59:08
you know,
59:09
I've had that.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: I had two specific and more significant seasons of discouragement.
59:16
And one very deep and dark one where I was very close to
59:19
leaving the ministry.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: And in God's kindness,
59:22
one of my elders at the time pointed me to another pastor who
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did some counseling.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't formal counseling,
59:32
it was just breakfast together and being able to just talk to
59:36
another brother in
59:37
SPEAKER_01: Christ and to find some encouragement.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: In my case,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: to hear the crazy coming out of my own mouth sometimes,
59:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:47
SPEAKER_01: in terms of my,
59:48
SPEAKER_01: what am I,
59:49
SPEAKER_01: you know.
59:49
SPEAKER_01: Like depression, obviously, we turn in on ourselves, right?
59:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's our natural bent.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: We're curved in on ourselves.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: And we need,
59:58
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
59:59
to be turned out again to Christ and in faith and then to the
1:00:04
people we serve in
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: love.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: So that sometimes when we're turning in,
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: talking to somebody else and getting that out,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: that was helpful for me to share with another brother.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: And there was another occasion where,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: I shared with my elders,
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: I was just,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: going through another season of discouragement.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: And they,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: they provided for me to take a study leave,
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: just a brief one,
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: and I talked to somebody else,
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: another minister that I didn't know personally,
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: and again,
1:00:37
SPEAKER_01: had an opportunity to talk through.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: some of those discouragements.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: So that was practical.
1:00:43
And in both cases that reoriented me back to the gospel for
1:00:49
refreshment and encouragement.
1:00:51
And it's tough for us because we're putting out,
1:00:53
putting out,
1:00:54
putting out the gospel,
1:00:55
hopefully.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_01: But we need to receive it.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_01: And so we need to find those sources that will daily feed us.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: and good devotional materials,
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: not,
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: we can be critical of pietism,
1:01:12
SPEAKER_01: but rightly,
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: if you employ it in a superstitious way,
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: but we want piety,
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: We want a practice of piety.
1:01:20
We want to be reading the scriptures to feed on Christ
1:01:23
ourselves and communing with
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: God in prayer and using good materials that point us to Christ.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: So we need to be fed too.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
1:01:35
Tony this has been a delight to have you on I feel I feel fed
1:01:40
through this
1:01:41
conversation hopefully others do as well and I'm very
1:01:46
encouraged and we got through
1:01:47
it the third times is a charm so Tony thanks for coming on and
1:01:53
we'll not make this
1:01:54
a one-time thing so we'll we'll see again in the future thank
1:01:57
you thanks Tony
1:02:00
Thanks so much for listening or watching this particular
1:02:02
episode of the Ministry
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: Minded Podcast.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet,
1:02:04
hit that subscribe button below right here on YouTube or on
1:02:07
Substack or Apple
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much for that.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for Tony for hopping on.
1:02:15
I pray that you're blessed and that you're encouraged and that
1:02:18
you are moved even
1:02:19
SPEAKER_00: further up and further in to live in the grace of God blessings to you