Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Howard Bryant on Duke vs UNLV 1991: The Upset That Changed College Basketball | 03.31

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Howard Bryant on Duke vs UNLV 1991: The Upset That Changed College Basketball | 03.31 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

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  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:12
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  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. Got my man
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Howard Bryant on with us, and we are going to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: look back on.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: What, quite honestly... and I don't even really.
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  Speaker 1: Feel bad about putting it in these terms, but it
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  Speaker 1: was a really sad day for black America. And it
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: was when Christian Laettner, Coach K, Bobby Hurley, and now, yeah,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Grant Hill, you are in the nim part of it.
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  Speaker 1: You hadn't really made your mark quite so much yet.
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  Speaker 1: They defeated UNLV in the national semifinal round of the
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  Speaker 1: NCAA tournament 35 years ago. It is, as crazy as
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: it sounds, considering it was Duke, for those of you
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  Speaker 1: who can't imagine this, it is maybe the biggest basketball
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: upset of my lifetime in the NCAA tournament. You can
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: have Villanova-Georgetown on this list, but this was a huge
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  Speaker 1: shock when it happened. It was a cultural touchstone moment
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  Speaker 1: when it happened, and I'm still not over it. But first, Howard,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, We like to set the
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  Speaker 1: scene on these things to get people to understand a
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  Speaker 1: little bit about, you know, for those who weren't there,
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  Speaker 1: some of the context of it. And I think this
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  Speaker 1: is truly fair to say that there were no two
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  Speaker 1: programs in college basketball less like one another in 1991
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  Speaker 1: than Duke. and UNLV right like they're both kind of
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: relatively nouveau riche because UNLV had a claim to be
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  Speaker 1: a legitimate power at that point right like 1991 is
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  Speaker 1: their third final four or maybe the fourth but Tarkanian
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  Speaker 1: takes the job in the 70s and UNLV is a
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  Speaker 1: team you got to think about all the time at
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  Speaker 1: a school that literally just popped up out of nowhere
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  Speaker 1: in the desert and they decided they wanted to have
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  Speaker 1: a basketball program to make to get attention to the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: school and that worked then you had Duke which had
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  Speaker 1: They had a strong program. They went to Final Fours
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  Speaker 1: in the 1970s, Championship.
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  Speaker 2: Game in 1978.
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  Speaker 1: Kind of fell off, but Mike Krzyzewski turned it into
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  Speaker 1: something different. In 1991, they by then have been to
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  Speaker 1: five Final Fours. That's their fifth Final Four in the
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  Speaker 1: previous six years. UNLV, though, they had different boys than Duke.
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  Speaker 2: Is that a fair way to put it?
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  Speaker 3: That's a very fair way to put it. It's fascinating
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: when we think about what that time period was because
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  Speaker 3: there were so many premises that no longer apply. And
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  Speaker 3: that's why this game was so important. This idea, even
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  Speaker 3: in 1991, 30, 35 years ago, that there was something
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  Speaker 3: elevated about college basketball. There was something legitimate about college basketball.
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  Speaker 3: There was something aspirational about college basketball. It wasn't just
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  Speaker 3: a sport. It was still under that pipeline of the
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  Speaker 3: molding of young men, the pathway to something better, even
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  Speaker 3: if you weren't going to be a professional athlete, that
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  Speaker 3: there was some form of nobility to the sport. And
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  Speaker 3: of course, whenever you have that, now you start bringing
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: up all the socioeconomic stuff. You start bringing in who
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: gets to play. You start bringing in the elite versus
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  Speaker 3: the street teams and all that. And UNLV really was...
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  Speaker 3: to me at least, that first team where you were like,
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  Speaker 3: are any of these guys eligible to be admitted into
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  Speaker 3: a university without basketball? Without basketball? This is a real
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  Speaker 3: touchstone moment. This is the, you know, and especially against
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  Speaker 3: a team like Duke where, you know, where these guys
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  Speaker 3: are supposed to, you know, they're the elite citizens in
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  Speaker 3: addition to being basketball players. They, you know, they're the,
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  Speaker 3: they're the leaders. And, and this was the first, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: obviously Georgetown was the first one. Georgetown was the first
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  Speaker 3: team of my lifetime. When you start thinking about when
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  Speaker 3: did you start watching college basketball? Georgetown was the first
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  Speaker 3: one where like that was black America's team.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You know, when it came to, okay, who's wearing the
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  Speaker 3: starter jackets, UNLV was second. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And it's funny because John Thompson had a clear mission
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  Speaker 1: at Georgetown of I'm going to get people into Georgetown
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  Speaker 1: that wouldn't get into Georgetown otherwise, right? And that's not
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  Speaker 1: to say that they can't perform at Georgetown, but he was,
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  Speaker 1: and I think the university, I've not read the particulars
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  Speaker 1: on this, but I think that they would admit this
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  Speaker 1: to a degree that I think that Temple would admit this,
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  Speaker 1: which was they let John Thompson and John Chaney do
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  Speaker 1: a little bit of their cultural outreach, right? That was
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  Speaker 1: their give back, was this basketball team. And they created
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  Speaker 1: a brand that, as we've talked about many times, I
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  Speaker 1: grew up thinking that Georgetown was an HBCU.
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  Speaker 3: So did I.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know why I didn't.
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  Speaker 1: Think Temple was an HBCU, because they had volleyball lines
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  Speaker 1: on the court. But with those coaches and those teams,
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  Speaker 1: I really thought that those were black schools.
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  Speaker 2: But there was a difference.
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  Speaker 3: Temple was way more black than Georgetown. When you walk
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  Speaker 3: on Temple's campus, you saw black students as well. The
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  Speaker 3: thing about Georgetown was when you walked on Georgetown's campus,
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  Speaker 3: the only black people you saw was the basketball team.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's wild, because all I knew about Georgetown.
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  Speaker 2: Was the basketball team, right?
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  Speaker 3: 100%.
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  Speaker 2: But their mission was a little different, right?
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  Speaker 1: Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV, is it fair to say that,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, to call them the first renegade program
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  Speaker 1: is maybe going too far, because there's always been programs
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  Speaker 1: that played a little loose with it, but It was
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  Speaker 1: a program in the image of Las Vegas in the
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: sense that the story that goes basically that D'Arcani was
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  Speaker 1: the coach at Long Beach State, and that's where he
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  Speaker 1: realized that playing fair was for suckers.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was Calipari before Calipari.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but he looked over at UCLA and could see
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  Speaker 1: how the sausage was being made over there.
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  Speaker 2: And he was like, brother, what are we talking about, right?
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  Speaker 1: So he takes this job at UNLV, and I contend
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  Speaker 1: just about every college basketball program is as discerning as
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  Speaker 1: it has to be to get the players that they
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  Speaker 1: want to have. You can look at the players that
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  Speaker 1: John Calipari had at Kentucky. They are not the same
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  Speaker 1: as the players that he was playing at Memphis and
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  Speaker 1: not the same as the players that he was playing
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  Speaker 1: when he was at UMass, right? The top-notch programs, I'll
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  Speaker 1: use this phrasing, don't have to take nearly as many chances.
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  Speaker 1: Jerry Tarkanian, That was all the chances, baby. They were
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  Speaker 1: taking them all. And what I always thought interesting about
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  Speaker 1: him is he was also doing it within the idea
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  Speaker 1: and paradigm of I am using college sports to improve
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  Speaker 1: their lives, which I think is incontrovertibly true, was something
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  Speaker 1: that he did. These guys did wind up going to
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  Speaker 1: college and going to places they would not have gone
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  Speaker 1: to otherwise if not for him. But nobody was running
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: a Father Flanagan operation. quite like TARC was.
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  Speaker 3: And especially the hypocrisies of it. I think one of
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  Speaker 3: the things that I actually really did sort of appreciate
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  Speaker 3: about TARC was when you're at Long Beach State and
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  Speaker 3: you're watching UCLA operate, you're recognizing that UCLA is operating
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  Speaker 3: and still receiving dispensation for doing some of the same
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  Speaker 3: underhanded stuff that other folks are being castigated for. And so...
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  Speaker 3: That recognition that playing by the rules is for suckers
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  Speaker 3: is absolutely accurate from the standpoint of who's making the rules.
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  Speaker 3: Because the leaders, the UCLA's and the Duke's and the
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  Speaker 3: North Carolina's and all of those, you know, it's not
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  Speaker 3: as though they're doing it the right way. Right. Not
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  Speaker 3: always doing it the right way. When I look at TARC,
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  Speaker 3: I see Barry Switzer.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
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  Speaker 3: I see the guy who's just street smart enough to
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  Speaker 3: know how the game works. He's no dummy. He recognizes
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  Speaker 3: it and he's like, come and get me. And I
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  Speaker 3: think he's also, along with Switzer, one of those coaches,
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  Speaker 3: one of those renegade coaches, not where he was the
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  Speaker 3: first guy who was doing the stuff. He was the
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  Speaker 3: guy that the industry was like, we got to stop
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  Speaker 3: this guy. What he's doing is bad for everybody. So
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  Speaker 3: he becomes the flashpoint for something that has been going
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  Speaker 3: on for a very, very long time, but he's moving
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  Speaker 3: into legitimate spaces at the top of the game and
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  Speaker 3: making everybody else really, really nervous.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is also before Las Vegas became seen
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  Speaker 1: as being a little bit more family friendly.
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  Speaker 2: And this is, this was Las Vegas.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Like the area around campus, the college town in this
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  Speaker 1: case is Las Vegas, right? Like if you've ever landed
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  Speaker 1: in Vegas and you take your cab to the Strip,
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  Speaker 1: You see UNLV right there.
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  Speaker 2: Like that's that's the scene that's around. That is New Haven.
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  Speaker 2: That is Cambridge.
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  Speaker 3: Where are we going after class? Right.
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  Speaker 2: What are we doing on your recruiting visit?
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. It is Las Vegas. So all of that
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  Speaker 2: is surrounding that.
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  Speaker 1: And then you have Duke, which was the Boston Celtics,
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  Speaker 1: the Utah Jazz and the Phoenix Suns, a college basketball
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  Speaker 1: all rolled into one. The first superstar of the K-era
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  Speaker 1: is Johnny Dawkins. That's how you wind up with these
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  Speaker 1: confused African-Americans who were Duke fans, right?
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  Speaker 2: A lot of them got on board with him, right?
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  Speaker 4: Like that was one of them yeah yeah man they
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  Speaker 4: was with that like that was the thing but then
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  Speaker 4: as it went it just got to be tough because
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  Speaker 4: it wasn't so much they had all them white dudes
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  Speaker 4: is that the announcers were very obviously cheering for them
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  Speaker 4: like yeah you you could not ignore that fact but
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: they got to the championship game in 1986 where i
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  Speaker 4: think they went into the tournament the number team in
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  Speaker 4: the country they lost to louisville which was quietly a
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  Speaker 4: black people team that we don't talk about on the
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  Speaker 4: list of black people teams but.
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  Speaker 3: They because of that denny that denny crumb thing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah man denny crumb maybe they they they had that
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: right um duke is on this run going through all
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: these final fours and if you watch game theory with
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: beaumont jones you'll see me talk about this all the
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  Speaker 1: teams that black people love duke they was legend killers.
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  Speaker 1: They got Georgetown in 88. Louisville's the only one that
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  Speaker 1: really held down the fort for La Gente, you know
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  Speaker 1: what I mean?
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  Speaker 2: They got Arkansas out of there in 1990.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Georgia Tech kind of fit the bill, you know what
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  Speaker 1: I'm saying? That was another program where it's like, huh, engineers,
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  Speaker 1: you say? But Duke got them out of it.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, look, Duke was just beating black people. This
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  Speaker 2: was what it was.
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  Speaker 1: And the announcers were cheering them all, but they could
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  Speaker 1: never get over the top. They never could. And so
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: they played this game in a championship in 1990. Well, actually,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: let me stop there because I think there's another part
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  Speaker 1: of it, too, that is forgotten is that North Carolina
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: was also like in the green book for black people
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  Speaker 1: as programs. Dean Smith basically integrated the Atlantic Coast Conference unilaterally.
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  Speaker 1: And Duke was the antithesis of that also. They were
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  Speaker 1: on the wrong side of all of it.
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  Speaker 3: That's what's really interesting too about when you think about
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: it if you're of a certain age, depending on your fandom.
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  Speaker 3: I was Georgetown, Georgetown, Georgetown, Georgetown, Georgetown. And then because
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: when I was in high school, I was a guard.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: Of course, you saw Dawkins and Amaker. And I told
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  Speaker 3: Tommy Amaker this. I was like, that was my team.
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  Speaker 3: And then as you get older, Now you start to
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: see all the other elements. Like when you're in high school,
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  Speaker 3: it's just basketball. I didn't know anything about Duke. I
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: didn't even know where Duke was. And then when you
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: get into your 20s and stuff, you start learning about class.
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  Speaker 3: And now you're taking all those classes and you're like, oh,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: I was rooting for Duke. maybe kind of for the
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: wrong team. I'm learning all kinds of things that these
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: things run a little bit counter to my personal values.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: I didn't even know, I didn't care. I didn't know
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: the difference between a public and a private university. Like
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: these things weren't, I was just a basketball fan. I
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: watched Tommy Amaker threw an alley-oop to Johnny Dawkins, who
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: was 6'2, over David Robinson in the tournament. I was like,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: I like that. I'll take that. And then now you
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: start to get, by the time you get to 90,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: especially the 90 championship game. Now you're looking at other things.
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  Speaker 3: Now you start looking at, you know, it's almost like.
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  Speaker 1: I want to say one thing right fast for the
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  Speaker 1: people who don't know. Howard Bryant, an alumnus of Temple University,
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  Speaker 1: and in the middle of this awakening, Duke beat Temple
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  Speaker 1: in the Elite Eight in 1988.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: When we were finally the number one, and only time
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: we were the number one team in the country, at
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: the Meadowlands, trying to get Coach Chaney to his first
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: ever Final Four. And Mark Macon shot six for 29.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: And still only lost that game by seven points.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: Lost 88-81, and Billy King shut down Macon, and let's
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: not talk about this. Okay.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Just needed to give context. Just needed to give some context.
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  Speaker 3: But what I was saying was, by the time you
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: get to 90, now all of a sudden you've got
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: that Catholics versus convicts thing going on, where now everybody's
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: talking about it's race, it's class, it's not just basketball anymore.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: And one of the interesting things about that time period too,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: is you're talking about John Thompson, Georgetown, you're talking about
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: Nolan Richardson, you're talking, this is also, let us also
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: not forget an extremely important figure during this time period,
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: and that's Al Campanus. So three years earlier, you've got
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Al Campanus on Nightline talking about the 40th anniversary of
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: Jackie Robinson. And that's where he famously says, you know,
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: that blacks aren't meant to be coaches and executives because
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: they lack the necessity. So this is a really, really
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: important time in discussing the competency of black coaches. The NFL,
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: that year, 1990, that was the first year. They had
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: just hired Art Schell. It was the first black coach
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: in the NFL since 1922? Wayne Fonce was right there.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Wayne Fonce was right there. Wayne Fonce was right there.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Wayne Fonce, Cape Verdean, but still.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, that's how they get you.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Just providing a few things. But this is a time period.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: This is the precursor to the Oscars so white and
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: the BLMs and all of the things that would come later.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: This was the first one where everyone's talking about, how
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: come we don't have any Black coaches? And you've got
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: John Thompson, who had finally won in 84. How come
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: we don't? Why don't we have these things? And this
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: is also happening at the exact same time, too. of
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Prop 48 and Prop 42. So one of the fascinating
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: things about this time period is, especially when we're talking
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: about it in 2026, is education was actually an issue
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: back then. You're actually really having a conversation about we
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: are still here to educate. It's not just basketball. It's
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: not just the money. It's not all of those things.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: It's happening. All of these things, it's a sort of
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: a perfect storm. You've got Prop 48, which came in
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: with the NCAA regulations that you had to have a
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: 2.0 and a 700 SAT, which John Thompson and Nolan
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: Richardson and those guys in Cheney were going off on
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: because they thought it was anti-Black. Then they doubled down.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: That was 86. Then they doubled down in 1989 with
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Prop 42, which was to say, you can't even have
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: a scholarship. You're not even eligible for a scholarship if
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: you don't have these numbers, which, of course, Cheney And
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Richardson and Thompson, especially Thompson, went wild on as well.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: It's like, okay, so you want the talent, but you're
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: also trying to prevent, you know, you're also trying to
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: get rid of certain people you don't want them to play.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: And so all of these things are happening at the
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: same time. And here comes, you know, Southern Ivy League
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: Duke taking, you know, beginning to make its ascendancy into
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: the top of the game. A lot of different social
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: factors taking place. And we're not even talking about the
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: basketball yet.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's in.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: People have to understand at that time, this is the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: 80s or when college, the blackening of college basketball really happens.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Like I was joking on Monday.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Talking about how I saw Nebraska had five white dudes
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: on the floor in that game.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: I had never seen that in a real game before.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: That was not you.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I saw BYU with five black dudes on the floor.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: And have five black dudes on the court in the
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: five decades previous.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, like it's wild times, right?
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: But the idea that obviously there have been a lot
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: of great black college basketball players, number one pick always was, dot, dot, dot.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: But there were different programs, had different racial profiles, and
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: just about every team had some white dudes on it, right?
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Even Georgetown, at the end of the bench. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: But just about.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Everybody had some white dudes in the rotation. And also,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I always used to say, as the years went on,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: the true strength of your college basketball program, you were
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: as good as the white dudes that you could attract. Like,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: if you could still get super cold white dudes, that's
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: when you had a problem. I'm not just talking about,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: you know, the dude that can stand over there in
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: the corner. You know, you're going to get you some
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: white dudes. Man, Jerry Tarkanian had no time for that.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: He was not even wasting his time thinking he was
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: going to get them white dudes to go over there. Like,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Larry Johnson and Christian Laettner are not of the same age.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: place right Bobby Hurley is a bit more of a
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: working class guy but the other thing that was the
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: other thing about Duke with the program though is that
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: they had a bunch of dudes that look like they
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: would go to Duke yes they did like like like
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that was that was what the game was they had
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and so 1990 they were the Dodgers.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: They were the Dodgers of the 70s that we don't
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: just play the game. We play the game the right way.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: We're the clean cut. They're doing, there was an optics
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: thing going on about how they were presenting. Yeah.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: And they're very self-aware about it because when it changed
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: at the end of the first decade of the 21st century,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: it's because they were conscious that it didn't play anymore.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: They knew they had a thing that was working for them.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And so they play against UNLV in 1990. And look,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: that 1990 UNLV team was very good. and thought of,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: they had already beat America's sweetheart Loyola Marymount by 30
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: points in the Elite Eight.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Somebody had to do it. You know what I mean?
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: If you weren't there, it was a very sad thing.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: But they went ahead and they decided to do that.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: But they actually were losing at the half to Georgia
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Tech in that game in the semifinal in 1990 with
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Kenny Anderson and Dennis Scott and Brian Oliver. They came
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: back and win that. They play in Duke and it
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: was a close game in the first half in 1990.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: And then I think it was after the first TV timeout,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: it was over. It was an ass whooping that was
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: indelible in your mind because it always felt like if
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: the game, Matt, Duke was going to win, right? No
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: matter what, the refs was going to cheat or something
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: like that. Dude, Duke could have had seven players on
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: the floor, man. They still would have got beat by 30.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: That game was seminal to me for a couple of reasons.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: The first was the final score.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: One, if you're a college basketball fan of the 80s,
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: and even today still, you top 100 points in 40 minutes,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: you're doing something.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, keep in mind it was a 45-second shot clock
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: in that time.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: And also the other thing to remember, and that's what
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: I mean about some of this stuff is so foundational
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: and we don't think about it anymore because it's all over.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: is that that was also, there were two things taking
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: place during that time period too. One, you were in,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I think the shot clock was only five years old.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: Because I still remember that 39-36 Georgetown SMU game where
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: you just held the ball. If you had a five
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: point lead with 10 minutes left, you just held the
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: ball for 10 minutes. And then they start bringing in,
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: I think the Big East had a 30-second shot clock
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: and the National was 45 seconds. And so all the
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: different conferences had different shot clocks. The other thing to
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: remember is that that was, I think, the second year
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: or the third year, if 87 might have been the
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: first year, of the 19-foot-9 three-point line. 19-9 for three points?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: And so the whole thing, everything is happening during that
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: time period where it really is a very underrated event.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: transitional period in the sport.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, everything is changing. And these dudes were just beating
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: them down the floor, right?
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: And I was going to say, Bo, I don't mean
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: to interrupt. There's one last, I forgot a piece I
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: was going to say too. And the reason why that
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: game was so wild to me, it wasn't just the
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: final score. It was also the fact that this was
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: one of those mandate games. It was like, oh, this
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: is what the future is going to look like. Because
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Duke got rolled. They got rolled in so many ways
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: where you looked at that and you go, these guys
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: are playing a different style of basketball. It wasn't like
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: NBA basketball, but what it was, it was close enough
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: and athletic enough, and it did something that should have
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: happened three years It should have happened six years earlier,
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: seven years earlier, but it didn't because Phi Slamma Jamma lost.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: There was this idea that you could still be athletic
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: in college basketball. You could still, you know, you could
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: try that Tarkanian stuff. But when the real teams came
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: and played the real fundamental basketball and when they really
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: did all the textbook stuff, your athleticism was going to lose.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Not that night.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, a key is.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Jerry Tarkanian was a much better basketball coach than Guy V.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Lewis was. That's right.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: That's the part that it comes down to, that Tark
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: was interesting because he had a signature style of play
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: that was based on clear strategy, like the amoeba defense.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: It was a thing, right?
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he was the greatest offensive tactician necessarily,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: but it was a defense begets offense sort of situation.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: That's when they play defense.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: That was a coach that was there. Because look, that
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: UNLV team, What it didn't have was a lot of size, right? Like,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: its best player was 6'5 Larry Johnson at power forward,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and there is no way that we could.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Possibly explain to you what a monster. Like, it wasn't
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Charles Barkley, right? There's only one of those, but it
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: felt similar.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Like, it was a suddenness to the way that he
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: played at that height, an explosion of what he was
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: able to do.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Ooh, boy.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: And also had... Stacey Ogman, who was one of one
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: of those precursors to positionless basketball. He's actually, you know,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: in a lot of ways, he was your second point
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: guard on that team at six, seven with all the
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: long arms and the defense and the whole thing. He's
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: he's in that Pippen mode. Right. You can just once again,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: you can start seeing the game change.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Point guard is Greg Anthony. I mean, he's a 10
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: year NBA vet. Anderson Hunt at two guard, which doesn't
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: mean anything now, but at the time sure seemed like
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: a big deal.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: And a very good player.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: He was the most outstanding player in the 1990 tournament
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: because he was one of the first of those guys
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: right there on that wing in that 19-9, like hitting
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: those shots. And look, Duke, the 1990 team.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Was young when you look back on it. It's a
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: freshman Bobby Hurley.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Youngest team.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Sophomore Christian Laettner.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: It's the youngest team in the Final Four.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like senior Al Abdel Nabi, like the guys
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: that are, Danny Ferry had left off the team before,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: like the guys that are leaving are not that important.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: It's the foundation of obviously what becomes a back-to-back championship
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: team But they were not ready for that game.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Grant Hill was a freshman. Yeah.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: No, Grant Hill, 90. Grant Hill isn't even there.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, 90. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of 91. 90.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: He's not even there. Yeah, 90, he's not even there.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: But this led to something that you talked about in
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: our phone conversations about this, which was, The question was
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: coming up about Duke, like, okay, yeah, you've made four
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Final Fours in five years, but you're going to win
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: or what? Like, now they were getting squeezed for the fact.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Forget about how incredible it was that they could win
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: that many games at all. The squeeze had become– keeping
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: in mind that while they're making those Final Fours, Carolina's
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: made none. Carolina hasn't been to a Final Four at
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: this point since 1982, and Duke is now four out
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: of five years.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: That's right. And also, by the time you get– after
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: that game, when we talk the 91 game we're going
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: to talk about– the vaunted Duke team that is inevitable now,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: that we all hate now, that always finds a way
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: to win now, they had lost four out of five
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: to the eventual national champion. Yeah. Right. So they, it
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: was sort of like, okay, when are y'all going to
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: do it? When are you going to win? And it's
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: wild to think about Mike Krzyzewski as the guy under
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: pressure to produce and Are you, you know, to ask
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: the question of Mike Krzyzewski, are you actually a winner?
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: And I think about this when you go back to
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: those time periods because it was such a different period
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: that in today's game, his job would be in jeopardy.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: You lose four times to the eventual champion, people would
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: look at you like you're the problem. Yeah.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: And look, coming up next, we're going to get to
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: that game in 1991.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: And, well, yeah, we'll get there. Coming up next.
• 25:34
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• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Terms and conditions may apply. All right, we are back
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: with Howard Bryant. So the thing about that 1991 UNLV team.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Rock stars.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Everybody came back. Like they win a national championship. Larry Johnson, back.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Stacey Augman, back. Anderson Hunt, back. Greg Anthony, back. And
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: they were playing in a backwater conference, the Big West, right?
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: The Big West was not really a thing.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: They weren't in the Big West back then. They were
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: in the PCAA, I think.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: No, they were in the Big West.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Was it Big West 91?
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were in the Big West. My apologies. But
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: they still set up a good non-conference schedule.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: They have the game at Barnhill Arena, number one versus two.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Number two, UNLV against Arkansas, where Ty Day and Larry
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Johnson get into a fight there. Because Arkansas had been
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: to the Final Four that year before. That was an
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: up-and-down game, boy. That was one of those, it was
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: like 100-something to 90-something. type of games, 40 minutes of hell.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So they run in the press. They are similar personalities,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: similar archetypes. Because Nolan Richardson was like, who's in Memphis?
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Come on down or come on over here and let's go.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: I remember that game being such a big deal. That
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: to me is like maybe at that point, the blackest
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: college basketball game that there had ever been.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And once again, the underrated piece of those teams was,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: And this is where I sort of separate Georgetown, because
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: Georgetown was a defensive team that had very questionable offense.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, until they got Iverson, they were never, Georgetown
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: was never, there was never a Thompson team that was
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: offense first. No. But with Nolan's teams and with Tark's teams,
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: you got all that. defensive intensity, but they can put
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: the ball in the basket too.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And they had guys like Lee Mayberry was the first
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: round pick. Todd Day was the first round pick. Like
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: that was a game. UNLV won that, but UNLV ran
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: through their schedule. They were from, they were the national
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: champions from day one. It felt like wire to wire.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: We knew which way this was going to go. There
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: weren't even really a lot of close games along the way.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Like when they had won the championship in 90, they
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: lost games in conference, right? Like those, you know, those
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: kinds of things can happen. That did not happen in this. Meanwhile,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Duke is playing in, I mean, 1990s ACC basketball is
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: some like, these are the glory days type of situation there.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of guys in that conference. You got
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Kenny Anderson. coming back for his sophomore year. North Carolina
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: with what turned out to be its first team to
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: go to the Final Four in nine years. NC State,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I think you got Rodney Monroe and Chris Corchiani were there.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: It was the gold standard conference of college basketball at
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: this point.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: 100%. And I think that that was the other piece
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: of it when you think about or at least what
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about Vegas, was the way that you
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: follow up a championship. They're undefeated. They were on the
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: verge of making you rethink everything you thought you knew
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: about college basketball. They were crushing everybody. And they were
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: crushing everybody. And by the way, underneath all of that
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: was Tarkus Dirty.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: And so you've got this, there's an Oakland Raiders bad
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: boy thing going on here where it's like, oh, we're
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: going to have to contend with these guys at the
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: top of the game. In a lot of ways, Fab
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Five and before the Fab Five, right? Yes.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And the Fab Five will tell you that.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: And they were blackening the game up and the coaches
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: were exploiting that because the biggest thing that we didn't
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: talk about That was the most important thing in 1991
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: when you're Duke walking out of there after they got
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: beat 103 to 73 in a championship game was we're
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: afraid of them. They're too fast. They're too black. They're
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: too athletic. They're too everything. They're doing too many things
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: that escape the rules of college basketball. Because let's also
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: not forget back then, it's a lot different today. But
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: back then, one of the other things about college basketball
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: was the officiating was part of officiating was still was
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: also teaching. Back then, when you watch the college basketball game,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: my goodness, they called every damn infraction. Right. I mean,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: I believe a travel back then was one and a
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: half steps in college where it's two steps in the pros. Today,
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: it doesn't really matter. And so they were really, really
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: structuring the game in a very traditional way. And Vegas
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: blew everybody's doors off. And so the thing that if
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: you're Duke going into that tournament in 91, and I'm
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: one of the forwards on that team, Brian Davis had
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: said it too, that we have to prove that we're
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: not afraid of them. And it's a certain type of fear.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: There's the type of fear when you just know the
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: other team's better than you. And then there's the type
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: of fear where you are racially and emotionally intimidated by them.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: They were playing a black game. And Krzyzewski and those
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: guys knew that we're emotionally afraid of this. And that's
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: a different type of fear.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: And somewhat, I don't even think ironic is the right word,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: but I think you'll understand what I mean. The brand
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: of what they were doing was pushing back against this.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: This was a stand in a lot of ways.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: You know what this was, Beau? This was, in a
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: lot of ways, whether people want to admit it or not,
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: This was one of those unfortunately yet necessary racial referendums
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: in sports about who gets to play and who doesn't
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: play and who dominates and who teaches and who doesn't,
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: who's legit and who's not. This is 1977 NBA Finals.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: This is the do it the right way trailblazers against
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: the freewheeling 76ers. Yeah.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: And then you get to this Final Four, which even
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: in real time was a legendary Final Four of sorts.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: In the end, it turns out, it's four hall of
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: fame coaches, but it was Carolina's return to the final four.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: It was Roy Williams at Kansas first final four. So
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you had on one side of the bracket, you had
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Carolina and Kansas, this weird incestuous pair of college basketball
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: programs that sends people back and forth all through their history.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: It's a lot. Dean Smith is a guy from Kansas.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Roy Williams is the guy that coached Kansas from North Carolina,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Larry Brown, North Carolina guy who coached at Kansas wins. And,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: They play in the 1957, the Will Chamberlain game. They
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: overlap a lot. Anyway, but the big thing is Roy Williams,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Dean Smith, is basically his dad.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: And he's coaching in that game. And then on the
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: other side, you have this rematch of UNLV and Duke,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: and the media sold this one a lot harder because
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: they had a lot more time to prepare for it.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: It kind of happened haphazardly in 1990 because there was
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: no guarantee you were going to get that game. You
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: had a week going in where it was absolutely black hat,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: white hat game going into that.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: And Vegas is, by the way, and also, by the way,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: and Vegas is also going after UCLA's records. They're undefeated. Yes.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: And there hasn't been an undefeated team since Bobby Knight
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: in 76. Right. And so there's a lot on the
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: line for UNLV.
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And they felt... Just in total in that game, it did.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Not feel going into it like Duke had a chance
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: just because they had been outclassed so thoroughly.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: But they did.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I mentioned him in the NIM part of this, but
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: they did add Grant Hill. And that was important, particularly
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: in a game where what we learned as the game
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: went on that was important for UNLV was what they
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: didn't have was depth.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: And Greg Anthony in foul trouble was a big deal.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: And fouled out. Yep. with five minutes to go. They
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: were leading when he filed out of that game. Going
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: into that game, there were a couple of things too
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: at work that were really important. And that intimidation factor,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: and I went and re-watched the game on YouTube just
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: to make sure my memories were accurate. And one of
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: the things, two things really jumped out at me. The
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: first thing was just the journalism. Watching the game in 1991,
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: James Brown was a sideline reporter for CBS. Billy Packer
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: and Jim Nance were on the call. It wasn't dominated.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: The conversations and the discussion around the game was still
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: dominated by professional reporters and not ex-players. So there's a
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: lot of, it has a different feel to it. The
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: other thing that hit me about that too in watching
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: these teams go at each other was that the amount
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: of time that they emphasized on intimidation. There's a code
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: word in there. There's a lot of code in there
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: that you're talking about making sure that McCaffrey and Laettner
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: and Hurley aren't intimidated by Augman and Johnson and George Ackles.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: That was a Billy Packer special, that game.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: Exactly right. That was right in his wheelhouse. And it
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: really does sort of underscore that they're fighting for the
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: soul at a sport. right then and there. And what
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: I thought was fascinating about watching that game was the
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: number of, and Leslie Visser was another sideline reporter on that.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: What I found fascinating about that was the number of
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: quotes that they, times that they had quoted Krzyzewski in
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: the timeouts talking about how, because Duke hung in there.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: It was a two-point game. You know, the largest lead
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: in the game was two or three points, four points,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: you know, here and there, five points. It was not,
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: nobody went on a big run in that game. especially
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: in the first half. And Krzyzewski is imploring his team.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: It's almost like Rocky IV. He's just a man, right?
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: It's like, in other words, you don't have to be
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: afraid of these Black dudes. They're just people. And we're
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: going to beat them. And we're beating them. And so
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: you could tell that a lot of Krzyzewski's coaching was
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: to demystify this idea of Black athletic invincibility.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: And look, man, the thing about Krzyzewski is he sees
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: himself as a tough guy. He is a Bob Knight disciple.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: He went to West Point. He grew up Polish kid
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: on the south side of Chicago. The idea of being
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: pushed around by anybody is antithetical to his very being
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: and very existence. And what wound up happening with that
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: UNLV team, it's steal those dudes. And so Christian Laitner,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: who's now a junior by the end becomes as unflappable
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: as a college basketball player had ever been. But you
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: are absolutely right. The idea was you can't be scared
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: of those black dudes. And they're like, but we, we,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I ain't gonna lie, man.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: We kind of are afraid of them.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: And Larry Johnson has gold teeth.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: That's what I was about to say. You see that
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: gold tooth? It's right there.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: You're telling me I don't really understand what you're even
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: talking about right now, man.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: That's right. And underneath all of that is this idea
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: that these guys aren't really college students. They're not students.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: They're not you know, they're not, this is not a
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: molders of men game that these guys, dare you say
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: the word thug, right? This is where it's all happening.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: And let's also not forget underneath all of that, the
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: NCAA is looking very deeply into Jerry Tarkadian every chance
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: it gets.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, at every turn. It is a legal battle that
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: went on for a very long time. We have landmark
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: legal decisions that come.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Out of this.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: But in the end, you watched this game more recently
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: than I did. Duke just kind of won, right? Oh,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: so the fix. Yeah, we can bring this up now.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: It was so implausible to us that Duke could win
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: that game that we widely believed that the.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Game was fixed.
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: Widely believe that the game was fixed.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Now, keep it in mind, there were also, like, pictures
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: of UNLV players in a hot tub with a man
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: who was referred to as the fixer. So I don't
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: want to pretend as though, like, there's no reason that
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it might have come up in conversation.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: Is that Moses Scurry in the hot tub with the fixer?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I think it is. Moses Scurry, and I can't remember
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: who the other dude was.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: Yep. And also, yeah, and also there were those plays
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: that kind of got circled. You know, did Larry Johnson
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: hesitate on a shot that he could have made? All
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: of it. And so the reason why I went and
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: watched this game wasn't just to make sure that my
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: recollections were accurate. It was also to go look at
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: those plays again. I was like, let me go see
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: if I'm going to do a little eight men out
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: and start circling plays. And you know what I discovered
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: about that game? Duke won the game. Really? That what
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: I saw in that, I saw there's one.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: Clear comp to me in that game and maybe two
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: if i can think about another one but there's one
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: that really really really jumps out at me that's the
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: 07 super bowl all over again that is giant that
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: is giants patriots where everything is on the line and
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: you could tell that unlv is like what do you
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: mean we're losing i mean like the game's tied like
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: the game's you.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Know we we.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: They hadn't trailed in the second half but twice all season.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: One was to Georgia Tech and the other one was,
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I think, Ball State maybe or something like that. They
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: really hadn't been– they killed everybody so badly. And it
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: reminded me of what John McEnroe used to tell me
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: about pressure when he said– I never forgot this. It's really,
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: really great. Pressure is the possibility you could lose. And
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: now you start watching that game. It's a two-point game
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: at the half. And all of a sudden, these guys
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: didn't buck. They're still here. And then on top of that,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Greg Anthony gets into foul trouble. They're up three, and
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: it looks like they're starting to pull away. About five
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: minutes left. Here they come. Six minutes left. Greg Anthony
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: goes in for a layup that would have given them
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: a five-point lead. They call a charge, which wouldn't be
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: called a charge today. And The whole game changes. And
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: suddenly it's not the game that you thought it was.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: And now Anderson Hunt has to play point guard and
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: all of the stuff is. And you can tell by
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: looking at them when they're passing the ball around, they
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: don't know what to do because they just got hit.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: And you could tell that it was like, holy shit,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: this whole thing's falling apart. We might we might not win.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: And that to me, when you watch that game is
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: the real, like we're supposed, they never went on the
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: 10-0 run. They never went on the 18-0. They never
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: got going. That they played a game in the mud
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: and never got out of the mud and didn't quite
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: know how to close.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: And I think.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: There's something I think interesting to me about that game
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: for UNLV that I view very similarly to the January
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: 1987 Fiesta Bowl with Penn State and Miami. which is,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: and people say they don't do this on purpose, and
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: it's true, but I think it's one of those moments
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: where you remember, oh, yeah, these guys are 20 and
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: 21 years old.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Like, the most humanizing element of college sports are those moments.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: Where you realize, oh, that's right.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: They're just kids.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: They're just kids.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: And that is, like, seeing Michael Irvin and Alonzo Highsmith
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: and Melvin Bratton and all those guys bawling on the
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: sidelines after they'd been truly obnoxious for all this time
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: when they were on top.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: And then it gets to the end and it's like,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, that's right. That's where they are in this.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: And with UNLV trying to get a shot off on
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that last possession, they choked.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: Didn't even have a play. Yeah. Didn't know where to go.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Anderson Hunt went for the win. And Larry Johnson, that
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: shot that he supposedly held up, they got, so to
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: set up, they've got the lead and Duke comes back
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: and ties it. And Laettner hits two free throws to
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: give him the two-point lead with 12.7 seconds left. 12.7
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: seconds left is a lifetime in basketball. And back then,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: NBA rules are not the same as college rules back then.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Back then, you couldn't take the ball out at half court.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: So you had to take the ball out from your
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: own basket. But still, 12.7 seconds is plenty of time
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: to get what you want. And by the time UNLV
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: got the ball over half court. They were like, oh shit,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: we're going to lose. Larry Johnson's got a kind of
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: set up three, but it's not a wide open. The
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: way people talked about that, it was like he had
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: pulled a Ben Simmons or something. He had a 10
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: footer and decided not to shoot and kicked it out.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: By the way, people were using this as fixed evidence.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: This was the shot that Larry Johnson, it was a
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: three point from the elbow. It's like a 22 foot shot.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: maybe little inside, but it was a three point shot.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: He didn't take it. He had a guy pretty, you know,
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: rushing out at him. I was like, that's the fix.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: It was so different from what I remembered it, the
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: conversation to be. And then they kick it back out
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: and Anderson Hunt takes a desperation three with two guys
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: on them and they, you know, it's a brick and
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: they lose the game. But to me, there were two
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: things that really jumped out watching that game. The first
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: was that Duke didn't fold it's like what you know
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: the you the bully took a swing and they didn't
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: go anywhere like okay we here to play they were
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: here to play that's the first thing the second thing
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: was how different the game of basketball is played you
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: go back and hop on youtube and watch that game
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: that shit is packed in the paint i mean it
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: is detroit pistons packed in the paint like everybody is
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: on top of each other and today the game is
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: so spaced and there's movement and there's flow and guys
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: you know There's open shots. There were no open shots
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: in that game, in that second half of that game.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: It was, it was straight up hardcore basketball, old school
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: basketball where you're like on each other defensively. And, you know, and,
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: and by that point, you know, the biggest piece of
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: it was that your best player, national player of the
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: year material, Larry Johnson, they didn't give him the ball
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: in the second half. He had a little tiny run
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: with about seven minutes left, but for the most part,
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: neither he nor Stacey Ogden did anything in the second half. So,
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: and at the same time, Kristen Leitner had 20 in
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: the first, like those guys, it was a battle. It
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: was a really, really great game. And, and then of
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: course the, the, the last thing about it was your,
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: you know, your point guard fouls out and you didn't
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: really know what to do. Yeah.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: He's the only guy that can run the offense.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Like that was the thing is that once he went down,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: That's when it fell apart.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: He doesn't fall out, they win that game.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Here's the fun part on this. This game led to
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: the building.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Honestly, I don't think there's been anything like it since then,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: which is the building of the legend of Christian Leitner.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: This is where it starts.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: This is where it starts. Like, this is the big win.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, he went to four Final Fours, won two
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: national championships. And what this was, and there are a
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: couple that it guided from him along the way, I suppose.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: But the big thing is, this is the beginning of Christian.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Like, you fully understand it.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Christian Laettner gave it to every one of the top
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: players of his era.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: In some cases, multiple times.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Shaq got it multiple times from him, home and on
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: the road. Fab Five got it home, road, and neutral site.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: He gave it to everybody.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah. One thing about that game, though, that I also,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: and I do want to go back to that, but
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: one thing about this game, too, that I thought was
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: interesting was my recollection was also that it was Bobby
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Hurley giving him the business, too, and it wasn't.
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: It wasn't. Anderson Hunt And Greg Anthony ate his lunch.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: That was a guard run offense. And Anderson Hunt and
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Greg Anthony, they killed Bobby Hurley. They killed him. They
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: hunted Bobby Hurley. They were looking for where he was.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: And he couldn't hang with them. He couldn't hang with them.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: But Leitner could in the front court. Yeah. And that
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: was the difference. And that was also, when you think
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: about it, this is really, and you can go back.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: when you think about like when we were talking about
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: some of the social racial stuff of it too like
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: where was the creation of like of white duke it's
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: a later.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah because well with a dash of fairy and fairy.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: But the 86 team had mark allery and jay billis
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: and those guys but it had dawkins and amaker right
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: right and also because they didn't win okay they got Ferry,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: but they didn't win. Yeah. You know, and nobody would
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: have said, Oh, you put Danny Ferry up against Shaq.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: And I mean, it's not, it wasn't the same Leitner
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: because of who he was given the business to.
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: Emboldens the whole thing in a way that has always
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: driven me crazy in terms of our, our discussion. It's like, okay.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: white great player suddenly comes with implications right it's not
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: just that he's a great player and he did his
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: thing it's like he's the standard.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Now yeah and it may and it required them to
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: do some obviously hypocritical things because layton was such a
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: jerk that's right right like like like that was the
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: part of it it was like i mean he stepped
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: on somebody in the lead eight round and they did
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: not throw him out of the game, which allowed him
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: to continue having what one might argue was the greatest
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: game anybody's ever played in the history of college basketball.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: And there was a moment in that game too, where
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Grant Hill pops Greg Anthony in the face with his shoulder,
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: which was once again, like, I don't, I don't want
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: to overstate this as once again, Duke had to prove
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: they weren't punks. Yeah. Right. And Billy Packer in that
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: game goes, he needs to get thrown out of the
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: game for that. And I'm thinking, imagine Grant Hill getting
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: thrown out in the first half of that semifinal. And
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: then they went back and said, oh, no, I really
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: don't think so. On second thought, he hit him with
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: the shoulder, not the forearm. But it was still very
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: much a you can't intimidate us moment.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: If they needed to prove to anybody they weren't soft,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: they needed to prove it to that man over there
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: screaming at them in that suit.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Because he didn't believe him. Unless y'all want to walk home.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: That's right. And then a couple plays later, Larry Johnson
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: walks by Grant Hill and gives him a shoulder to
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: the face. I'm like, oh, they balling right now. This
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: is a territorial game. Right? This is a territorial game.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: And I loved it because I was like, ooh. These
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: are all things like, when I watched that game, I
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: was what? I was 22 years old. So now you
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: look at it with different eyes and you go, oh, man,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: there was a lot at stake here. These guys were trying–
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: It was an alpha game. It was an alpha game.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: And for Krzyzewski as well, to prove once again. Like
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: I said, because you've got to remember him. He's probably
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: at the sidelines also thinking at some point, when am
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: I going to get one of these? And is Tarkanian
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: going to roll me again two years in a row? Right.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is a milestone moment in the history
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: of college basketball.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: 100%.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Like this whole thing. Like I said.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Laettner did not beat the Fab Five in those three locations.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: He simply beat them on the road and on the
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: neutral site. The next year, Fab Five came to Cameron.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, after Laettner graduated and then won there,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Jalen Rose said Krzyzewski beat him four times in that
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: whole career. They gave it to Temple. They gave it
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: to Arkansas. They gave it to Georgetown. Anybody that had.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: A whiff of it, they was like, hey, we got
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: something for all of y'all. Like, this was... You're right.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I think your point is a great one that this
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: is really kind of the building of the idea of
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Duke being white. And then it kind of got reinforced
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: in the aughts because that 99 Duke team, which I
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: contend is the best team Chesky ever had. And I
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: don't know if any white dudes got any minutes on
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: that one. That's Eldon Brand, Corey McGeady, William Avery, Trajan Langdon.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Woo!
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: Because that was when it was coming off after his
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: back had messed up.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: And when Duke needs to recover.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: They can recover.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't really get so caught up. being stuff
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: they care about otherwise.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: You know where they're looking for players.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, hey, man, we ain't got time
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: to play with y'all no more.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: Come on.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you with the shady head, you coach. Yeah, come
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: on down, partner.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Duke as villain starts here. Yes. You know? And also
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Duke as hero starts here.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it depends on what, because they been
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: villains in our house. You know, my daddy was the
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: head of the game. You know what I'm saying? Maybe
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: just mug people a little long time to get wise.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: We was on it.
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: We saw it. We saw it. Yeah. I mean, I,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: and I love that because I, like I said, I
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: remember it's easy to like a team and it's easy
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: to take a team in whatever direction you want to
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: take them when they don't win.
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: And then once they win, now you start looking at
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: all of it differently. You know, it was kind of
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: cute when Tom Brady won his underdogs and they beat
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: the Rams and then it wasn't cute in five years later.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: It doesn't get, you know, because now, now the lens changes, right?
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: And I think that what is fascinating about that game
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: is that you can do this. You can circle seminal
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: games and moments that sort of shift the balance and
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: shift where things are going. And I think, like I said,
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: in rewatching that game, the illusion or just the idea
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: of education is on top of this too, because let's
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: not forget, Nobody would question Duke as an academic institution.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: People questioned UNLV because it didn't even exist in 1975, right?
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: So it was like, this ain't even a real school.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: So all of those different things, when you take all
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: of those elements and you put them on the basketball
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: court at an extremely high level with extremely high stakes,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: you got something remarkable. And that was a remarkable game.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: That is Howard Bryant. Check out Kings and Pawns. I
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: still got my copy right here for you guys to
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: see here. It is an excellent book that I still
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: highly recommend you go check out. Kings and Pawns on
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Give this a look. My brother, I appreciate you.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: My pleasure. This was fun. Like I said, I love
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: I've just forgotten all about all of that. And it's
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: I think it is like I remember like I had
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: a girlfriend who used to just laugh at me like
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: because I used to watch, you know, espn classic and
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: stuff like did the score change no when was the
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: game 30 years ago why are you watching it but
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: it was fascinating watching this basketball because it's not the
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: same basketball that we see today.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Nah man it's a different game brother i appreciate you
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: and ladies and gentlemen thank you so much for joining
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: us here on the right time We do this four
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: days a week. Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.
• 55:37
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• 55:51
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• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Take it easy.