Latest / NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect / Exploring Neurodiversity in Mental Health: Simona’s Journey as a Researcher

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Exploring Neurodiversity in Mental Health: Simona’s Journey as a Researcher · NDV Podcast: Neurodiverse Voices Connect

• 0:17
  Welcome to season 5 of the Neuro Diverse Voices Podcast, the
• 0:22
  podcast that gives a voice to the neuro divergent community.
• 0:27
  My name is Andrea Costa and I am your host.
• 0:32
  I am also the mom to a beautiful 9 year old autistic daughter and
• 0:36
  she is my world. At the age of 42, I was recently
• 0:41
  diagnosed with ADHD and through my lived experience I've
• 0:45
  developed a deep passion for all things neuro diversity.
• 0:51
  My daughter gave me purpose. My neurodivergence keeps the
• 0:55
  passion alive. By sharing my journey, I hope to
• 0:59
  help others feeling seen, understood, and less alone.
• 1:04
  Through conversations with guests from a wide range of
• 1:08
  backgrounds and perspectives, my aim is to challenge assumptions,
• 1:12
  spark curiosity and enlighten all kinds of minds.
• 1:17
  This is and brings another incredible line up of guests.
• 1:21
  From comedians and writers to alternative provision leads,
• 1:25
  therapists, parent advocates and researchers from the University
• 1:29
  of Oxford, every guest has an inspiring journey and a powerful
• 1:33
  story to share. This is a space for honesty,
• 1:36
  connection and celebration where difference is not just accepted
• 1:41
  but valued. Hi everyone, welcome to the
• 2:05
  season finale of Season 5 of the Neuro Diverse Voices podcast.
• 2:10
  This will be the last episode of the season, and today we are
• 2:14
  going to focus on research with another special guest.
• 2:18
  I'm going to try to pronounce her name properly this time.
• 2:24
  She's an Economic and Social Research Council and
• 2:29
  Administrative Data Research UK Fellow at the University of
• 2:32
  Oxford's Department of Experimental Psychology, and her
• 2:36
  name is Simona Skripkowskaita. Welcome, Simona.
• 2:41
  Yeah, very well done, Very well done.
• 2:44
  I'm very happy to be here. I'm very happy to to have you
• 2:47
  here. OK, so why don't we start with
• 2:52
  you telling us a bit more about your your work.
• 2:57
  So if you can, introduce yourself and tell us about the
• 3:00
  work you are currently doing at Experimental Psychology.
• 3:05
  Great. Yes.
• 3:06
  So as you said, I'm Doctor Simona Skripkoskaita.
• 3:09
  I'm an ADRUK Fellow in Department of Experimental
• 3:14
  Psychology at Oxford as well as a lecturer in clinical
• 3:18
  Psychology at University of Surrey.
• 3:21
  And my ADR project in particular sort of focuses on on sort of
• 3:27
  administration data, as you said.
• 3:29
  But my research more generally looks at neodiversity informed
• 3:35
  child and adolescent mental health.
• 3:37
  So in the administrative data project, I'm looking at linked
• 3:43
  administrative data, looking at school data as well as NHS data
• 3:51
  and seeing how young people who develop, who are or or are
• 3:59
  intrafed for neurodivergence as well as mental health conditions
• 4:03
  at some point before they turn 12 years old, how they interact
• 4:08
  with different systems in the run up to that.
• 4:10
  So how and when do they get yes, funding and support?
• 4:16
  When do they get special education support and EHCP
• 4:20
  plans? And if they do as well as how
• 4:25
  there are or aren't excluded from schools and education, how
• 4:30
  they present to emergency care, how they interact with social
• 4:35
  care. So what kind of whether they
• 4:38
  have child in need plans or child child looked after status.
• 4:44
  And kind of my main aim is really to look at how these
• 4:48
  groups of, let's say neurodivergent only
• 4:52
  neurodivergent and mental health and mental health only referrals
• 4:57
  for for for mental health support, how that might define
• 5:00
  the differences and similarities in in those pathways.
• 5:04
  So the hope is that that will let us see whether there's any
• 5:08
  gaps in terms of timing or engagement in either of those
• 5:12
  groups where maybe we need to be putting more efforts for
• 5:17
  prevention and intervention or making sure that those services
• 5:20
  are provided better or or less when it comes to things like
• 5:24
  school exclusion or whether there are particular
• 5:28
  interactions with the system where all, let's say neuro
• 5:31
  divergent children who have also Co curing mental health
• 5:35
  conditions already are. And maybe that's a great space
• 5:38
  to come in and interact with them and implement early
• 5:43
  prevention and intervention sort of mouse to make sure that they
• 5:46
  don't go on developing mental health conditions.
• 5:49
  Yeah, very, very important and relevant research study that I'm
• 5:54
  also very happy to be involved, involved with as a member of the
• 6:02
  Advisory Board. Thank you.
• 6:04
  Thanks for sharing and thank you for your work.
• 6:06
  I know I thank you every time we have a meeting, but it's
• 6:10
  something that we neuro divergent community really,
• 6:15
  really need. And what has drawn you to
• 6:19
  researching neuro divergent within child and adolescence
• 6:22
  mental health? That's a good question.
• 6:27
  It's, it's been a journey really so, well, I mean, to be fair,
• 6:32
  let let me address the, the, the previous things you said.
• 6:35
  So in terms of how grateful I am to have you in my advisory
• 6:39
  group, it's really, it's really, really nice and extremely
• 6:43
  important and, and really supportive and, and, and
• 6:48
  inspiring to, to have you and the, and the other people who
• 6:51
  are involved there. So thank you for that first,
• 6:53
  didn't want to like just jump over that.
• 6:56
  But in terms of, yes, So what inspired me initially, it's,
• 7:01
  it's quite funny because that's like a long journey and a long
• 7:04
  time ago really. You know, I think it's quite
• 7:08
  funny how we sometimes make young people decide what they
• 7:11
  want to do in life quite early in their journey when they're
• 7:14
  1617 or so and they have to be making different decisions which
• 7:18
  will determine that. So I went into studying
• 7:21
  psychology and I thought that I would want to go into corporate
• 7:23
  psychology and HR and things like that.
• 7:26
  And really kind of going through the degrees and learning about
• 7:33
  different populations and learning about different people
• 7:36
  and learning about the field more generally kind of
• 7:39
  completely changed that through different experiences.
• 7:42
  And one of the things that I can really sort of pinpoint that was
• 7:45
  like very unfortunately at that time called abnormal psychology
• 7:49
  classes. But what they showed me was it
• 7:55
  kind of introduced me not really for the first time because I
• 7:58
  have had kind of neurodevension people in the world around me.
• 8:03
  But kind of really more formally to sort of showing how people
• 8:09
  that are born slightly different in some ways from the general
• 8:12
  population is often kind of maybe seen as unfortunate in
• 8:16
  some ways. Actually can really thrive when
• 8:19
  provided the suitable environments and things that,
• 8:23
  you know, really attend to their strengths rather than focus on
• 8:26
  their maybe challenges. And that's really kind of
• 8:30
  completely flipped the switch in my head.
• 8:32
  And I was like, that is what I want to do.
• 8:34
  I want to be part of that change that changes how we provide the
• 8:37
  environments is really change of focus on going like, OK, well,
• 8:42
  what is suitable for this individual?
• 8:44
  And that kind of through a longer way led me into neuro
• 8:49
  diversity as well, where then I conducted my sort of first
• 8:52
  research projects that neuro divergent children and really
• 8:57
  quickly saw how that support and the right environments were
• 9:01
  lacking for both neuro divergent young people and and their
• 9:05
  families. And that that's something that
• 9:09
  we need to quickly sort of improve.
• 9:12
  That's now 20 years ago that you know, so it's been it's been a
• 9:18
  long journey, but I'd say that's where I would put pinpoint those
• 9:21
  kind of start of my journey and going like, OK, actually I don't
• 9:25
  want to go into corporate psychology.
• 9:27
  I want to I want to do something that allows me to work that is
• 9:32
  an amazing population of young people and make sure that they
• 9:35
  are getting best chance in life. Yeah, I think corporate
• 9:38
  psychology sounds a lot more boring.
• 9:42
  I think so, yeah. Right choice.
• 9:46
  I'm sure some people love it, but I don't think it's for me.
• 9:50
  Great. OK.
• 9:52
  So one of the big themes of of your work is the gap between
• 9:56
  diagnostic frameworks and lived experience.
• 9:59
  From what you've seen so far, where do systems most often miss
• 10:03
  the mark for neuro divergent young people?
• 10:08
  Yeah, it's, it's, it's tricky in some ways.
• 10:16
  I don't know how much I'm looking at diagnostic frameworks
• 10:19
  in the way I think I've kind of moved away from that.
• 10:22
  I'm looking at much more trans diagnostic frameworks because
• 10:29
  things are much more complicated in real life than pure
• 10:31
  diagnosis. So the diagnosis and and the
• 10:37
  sort of the standard pathways currently are quite built on
• 10:40
  sort of standardized diagnostic systems and sort of having a
• 10:46
  particular diagnosis in mind for, for, for very good
• 10:52
  historical reasons and generally good resource allocation
• 10:55
  reasons. But obviously the trajectories
• 10:59
  and the experiences are much more diverse and they don't
• 11:02
  always fit within the systems that are defined of you must
• 11:07
  take one box at the time sort of thing.
• 11:10
  Because actually we know that people change over time in, in,
• 11:15
  in, in, in what boxes they might be able to tick or not or take
• 11:20
  multiple boxes at the same time. And so that's, there's kind of a
• 11:25
  mismatch in that. There's also, especially in the
• 11:31
  field like neuro divergent, the diagnosis, you know, and the
• 11:37
  support is kind of heavily dependent on diagnosis, right,
• 11:40
  rather than the particular needs.
• 11:42
  And we know that once you meet one neuro divergent person, you
• 11:44
  know, you only met one neuro divergent person.
• 11:47
  The it's, it's, it's such a heterogeneous and broad
• 11:51
  population that you can't really sort of have really
• 11:56
  one-size-fits-all kind of approaches.
• 12:00
  There's a lot of variability. And that does not necessarily
• 12:04
  fit, again, the systems that we have.
• 12:11
  And yeah, I think, I think, you know, just historically and the
• 12:15
  way it's kind of been done, it's not really built to fit the
• 12:20
  means of neurodivergent young people.
• 12:22
  Often it's often too quick, too loud, too intense, too focused
• 12:28
  on changing the young person rather than sort of thinking
• 12:31
  about how to change their environments against them.
• 12:36
  But having said all of that, I don't, I don't, you know, I
• 12:39
  think it's important not to blame the people in the systems
• 12:42
  in that sense either because it's not coming from people who
• 12:47
  are working in those places not knowing that that's, that
• 12:51
  doesn't work or or, or not wanting to help people.
• 12:54
  It's often kind of systemic and historical and financially
• 12:59
  driven kind of restriction. That's yeah.
• 13:03
  It's a learning journey for for everyone.
• 13:06
  I think you know when you are in the position of being frustrated
• 13:10
  with the systems, it's, it's very easy to to blame how things
• 13:15
  how things work. But, you know, the way I try to
• 13:19
  see it is, is, is through a positive lens as well that, you
• 13:23
  know, it does take time. And, you know, sadly, we don't
• 13:29
  see a lot of change because it's been a long time.
• 13:35
  But I think, yeah, patience is one of those things that we
• 13:40
  parents have to have a lot. But but I agree with you, it's a
• 13:46
  learning journey. And it's, you know, only
• 13:48
  recently we started talking about the shift or this change
• 13:52
  between the medical model towards the social model and
• 13:57
  understanding that, you know, the environments or the
• 14:01
  environments that we have in the systems that we have are
• 14:04
  actually not fit for, for for the near divergent community.
• 14:09
  So I think there's still a long way to go.
• 14:12
  It's great to see so many initiatives and, you know,
• 14:15
  advancing advancement in research as well.
• 14:19
  And, you know, amazing researchers like you dedicating
• 14:23
  your, your career to, to this. But I, I agree with you.
• 14:27
  It's, it's not about the people. It's, it's the system that needs
• 14:30
  to change. And I'm, I'm sure it will.
• 14:33
  Yeah. It's about being patient.
• 14:36
  And I think, you know, we've already, we've, we've been
• 14:38
  seeing some positive changes, some of them are frustrating.
• 14:42
  And you're kind of going, how have we been talking about this
• 14:44
  for such a long time? And it still hasn't changed.
• 14:46
  And that kind of it applies for, for, for, for neurodiversity
• 14:49
  specific sort of systems, but also just child and young
• 14:52
  people's mental health systems more broadly.
• 14:56
  You know, UK is in quite a funny space at the moment when it
• 14:59
  comes to sort of receiving diagnosis or support, you know,
• 15:04
  and, and long waiting lists and, and we're kind of in slight
• 15:08
  problematic times with that. But there's also a change in,
• 15:13
  in, in the conversations that are being had.
• 15:15
  There's a spread of understanding.
• 15:17
  There's much better sort of capture that more and more talk
• 15:21
  that the sort of clinicians and professionals working in that,
• 15:24
  that space less. I have to sort of explain
• 15:27
  everything from the beginning. And people go like, Oh yeah, we
• 15:31
  know this. We see, we see these young
• 15:33
  people every day and we try to do sort of our best in the
• 15:36
  systems that are about that. So it's definitely changed.
• 15:39
  But yes, hardly as any big changes.
• 15:42
  There's low, they take a while. Yeah, we will get there.
• 15:48
  We. Will get there, yes.
• 15:51
  Sure. And from your connection and
• 15:55
  work with neural divergent young people, how do they describe
• 15:59
  themselves or make sense of their mental health?
• 16:03
  And how does that differ from how professionals stand to to
• 16:06
  frame it? Interesting.
• 16:10
  I think, well, I mean, for one, the focus, I think, but again,
• 16:15
  this is based on obviously limited number of of neurotic
• 16:18
  people that are kind of had the privilege to discuss this.
• 16:21
  And this might not apply for, for many different people.
• 16:24
  As I said previously, it's quite a heterogeneous sort of group of
• 16:30
  people really. So it varies quite a lot.
• 16:35
  But I'd say the focus is, is on a slightly different part of the
• 16:38
  process, I think for neurodivergent people,
• 16:44
  understandably. And you know, I might be wrong,
• 16:47
  but just kind of from what people told me, it's really more
• 16:52
  of the focus on support needs and kind of really on, on, on
• 16:55
  the support that's available and making sure that they get help
• 17:02
  when they need help with their mental health symptoms and, and
• 17:04
  things like that. While sadly from the
• 17:09
  professional side and less so the professionals themselves,
• 17:12
  again, more of the systems and in, in, in, in in some ways
• 17:16
  reasonably so. There's much more of like, well,
• 17:21
  but why do you have this? And, and is that appropriate for
• 17:24
  you to be in the service, which I understand the sort of
• 17:28
  thinking of. And often it's, it's founded.
• 17:30
  So for example, if we have an evidence based intervention that
• 17:34
  has been shown to be suitable for like let's say children and
• 17:39
  young people and more generally, but it's not been evidenced yet
• 17:44
  to, for example, be suitable for autistic people or ADH gears or
• 17:51
  you know, ADH gears, it's and there's limited spaces the
• 17:57
  professionals might go like, well, actually we might do harm
• 18:00
  here. So let's not give the space for
• 18:02
  this person who might be neurodivirgent and instead let's
• 18:07
  give it to somebody who we know the chances are that this will
• 18:09
  help, right? So I understand the sort of the
• 18:12
  thinking about it in those particular situations, in those
• 18:16
  particular decisions. But what often seems to happen
• 18:21
  is that at least I think that's more pronounced than adult
• 18:26
  populations from the looks of it and the research out there.
• 18:30
  But what happens then is that the neuro divergent people end
• 18:35
  up being think point between different services and you know,
• 18:41
  sort of, let's say autism already reached specific
• 18:45
  services will go like, well, that's not we don't feel like we
• 18:49
  can help you with anxiety. This is something beyond our
• 18:52
  expertise. While, you know, anxiety
• 18:56
  treatments and and people delivering those will go like,
• 18:59
  well, this might be your autism instead, or this might be your
• 19:03
  ADHD instead. And I don't think I can, you
• 19:05
  know, help with that. And that leaves the people
• 19:08
  somewhere in the middle falling through the gap and going well,
• 19:13
  but who do I go to? Because there's no understanding
• 19:16
  of how these things overlap. I do think like it's, it's a
• 19:21
  tricky one. There's definitely been like a
• 19:23
  lot of record and, and research showing that that's definitely
• 19:27
  as well as, as, as as just sort of anecdotal evidence from
• 19:31
  conversations that people have had that that's definitely
• 19:34
  affecting sort of over eighteens quite a lot in, in, in, in, in
• 19:40
  neuro diversion population. And there is awareness that the
• 19:43
  transition from cams into adult services is particularly bad.
• 19:47
  There's been, I'd say that it would probably have slightly
• 19:49
  less evidence on how that's affecting cams population and,
• 19:53
  and young people. My own research has sort of
• 19:56
  shown that actually a lot of young people, neuro divergent
• 20:00
  young people, this history of self harm.
• 20:04
  Will be seeking help from a lot of different sources and luckily
• 20:10
  and reassuringly actually receiving support from those
• 20:13
  sources as then they're not being refused it.
• 20:16
  Although this includes a lot of semi formal or informal things
• 20:21
  like family or friends or online or sort of school services.
• 20:25
  So they are being given support and their needs are being
• 20:28
  responded to to a degree. But sadly also they're saying
• 20:32
  that that support is not appropriate and it's not
• 20:34
  actually helpful. So there's more of an element as
• 20:37
  well of not only saying, OK, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll
• 20:42
  respond to you asking for help. It's also making sure that we
• 20:45
  respond appropriately and that that's what we do is actually
• 20:50
  helpful and not harmful because sadly, that's one of the things
• 20:54
  we hear a lot about that actually has been discouraging
• 20:58
  to go and ask for, for, for, for mental health support because
• 21:03
  people felt misunderstood or not seen or rushed or focused on
• 21:10
  kind of changing things that they don't feel like they can
• 21:12
  change in themselves. Yeah.
• 21:15
  Yeah. Or brushed off.
• 21:20
  Yeah, I had a bit of an experience with my own when I
• 21:24
  started seeking my own assessments.
• 21:27
  Of course, I'm, I'm in my 40s, so I'm not in that phase of the
• 21:33
  transition to adulthood. But it's, I would agree, you
• 21:37
  know, with my work with, with the community, that's something
• 21:39
  I hear very often that, yeah, when you become eighteen, it
• 21:43
  feels like, OK, your neuro divergent is gone Now you've
• 21:49
  learned what, what you've what you've had to, to learn.
• 21:53
  But that that that shouldn't be how it is.
• 21:55
  And then that's probably young adults in that phase who are
• 22:02
  also kind of realizing that they may be neuro divergent as well.
• 22:06
  So you might not even know at this point, Right.
• 22:10
  So yeah, but again, we can do this better and work like yours,
• 22:16
  you know, looking at the different pathways, the data we
• 22:19
  have will hopefully influence the systems and and policy.
• 22:25
  So when we started talking about the interview in in your, well,
• 22:30
  my new process of having my guests kind of telling me a bit
• 22:35
  more about themselves beforehand, you talked about
• 22:40
  self identification. So I just wanted to ask why is
• 22:44
  that such an important concept in in the neuro neuro diversity
• 22:49
  affirming work? I think it's, it's, it's
• 22:54
  especially important now and especially important in this
• 22:58
  country for, for particular set of reasons, although I think
• 23:02
  that expands globally for, for different areas of sort of
• 23:08
  relevance and, and why that might be sort of particularly
• 23:11
  important here. But as I've, I've sort of
• 23:14
  touched upon slightly is there, there is there is currently an
• 23:19
  issue that I think most people will agree that waiting lists
• 23:24
  and, and diagnostic pathways via CAMS as well as adults
• 23:31
  diagnostic pathways and actually getting diagnosis can take years
• 23:36
  and years, which means that if we're functioning under a kind
• 23:42
  of model where diagnosis is required to in order to get
• 23:45
  support. So for example, while that
• 23:49
  shouldn't necessarily be a case, I think that people say often
• 23:53
  that, you know, there were a few special education support to
• 23:56
  school or EHCP plans because they didn't have a diagnosis
• 23:59
  yet. So with all that in mind, if it
• 24:05
  takes years and years to receive a diagnosis, it removes a big
• 24:10
  part of being able to adapt appropriately your sort of your
• 24:17
  own, our family patterns, reach out and meet other people who
• 24:22
  might be sort of part of your community really, because you're
• 24:28
  not explicitly told that that's sort of what's happening, right?
• 24:32
  So self diagnosis comes in as I think a really important
• 24:36
  potential step before that where it goes like, well, OK,
• 24:40
  actually, you know, as far as I can tell from all the
• 24:44
  information I have gathered, because let's be honest,
• 24:47
  neurodivergent people and neurodivergent families spend a
• 24:50
  long time learning a lot about neurodivergence and their
• 24:55
  potentially suspected diagnosis and what's out there and what
• 24:58
  that means and whether that responds well to them or not,
• 25:02
  right? So they can be in a pretty good
• 25:08
  situation of going a pretty, pretty good state of sort of an
• 25:12
  ability to go like, yeah, I'm I'm quite sure that this is
• 25:16
  where we have and that's probably a diagnosis We would
• 25:18
  be, we would be getting or this is the group of people.
• 25:21
  I sort of identify this, but I don't require a diagnosis, for
• 25:25
  example, because I don't feel like I require additional
• 25:28
  supports like the supports I have in my family, my school,
• 25:32
  things like that are enough. And actually all I need is kind
• 25:35
  of identification to go, OK, you know, I am actually autistic.
• 25:40
  That will help me to give language and explanation to
• 25:46
  people around me to kind of make sure that they understand where
• 25:49
  I'm coming from. So sometimes that might be
• 25:52
  enough, but in other ways, like for me, it's I feel it's as a
• 25:57
  field, we kind of have to be flexible about the self
• 25:59
  diagnosis because we were just not providing diagnosis in a
• 26:03
  good enough time for people to otherwise get that
• 26:08
  identification. And over the years that all the,
• 26:12
  you know, neuro divergent young people I have met and, and you
• 26:17
  know, similarly, as you say, sort of, you know, neuro
• 26:19
  divergent adults that maybe have gotten diagnosis later in life,
• 26:23
  especially neuro divergent women kind of thing.
• 26:28
  I feel like diagnosis of of things like being autistic or at
• 26:34
  age deer is in its in itself can be really helpful.
• 26:40
  So similarly, self diagnosis of of kind of having that identity
• 26:46
  can be really helpful for people to understand where they're
• 26:51
  coming from and that there's nothing wrong with them.
• 26:53
  I've heard that a lot from people of going like, well,
• 26:55
  actually that's removed a lot of weight off my shoulders because
• 26:58
  I realized that I don't need to push myself to be in situations
• 27:03
  that are distressing and stressful and things that don't
• 27:07
  bring me joy because that's just the way I am.
• 27:11
  And I feel like that's a really important part of the journey to
• 27:15
  just accept and love yourself rather than necessarily go like,
• 27:20
  well, actually, I necessarily need a diagnosis on paper and
• 27:24
  have, you know, somebody medical professional sign for it.
• 27:28
  So if for the people who maybe don't necessarily need the
• 27:33
  additional support and only need that identification level, I
• 27:38
  think that's something like that's just a great way to
• 27:41
  achieve that in acceptable way, right?
• 27:44
  I do think when we come to support and requirement for
• 27:47
  that, we obviously need a better system that allows people to
• 27:50
  achieve that quicker. And at the moment, I think
• 27:54
  that's where we really need to listen to people's knowledge and
• 27:56
  voices and go like, well, actually you're our best
• 28:02
  judgement that that, that you're part of this community because,
• 28:07
  you know, we're failing to to sort of assess that in a good
• 28:11
  enough time. Yeah, it's very, very
• 28:14
  interesting because I've been having been recently diagnosed
• 28:17
  with ADHD and also being halfway through my my autism assessment
• 28:21
  at at this point in time, I actually realized that I think
• 28:28
  without knowing any of these while growing up and when I
• 28:32
  started becoming a bit more confident, I, you know, at work,
• 28:36
  for example, if if I couldn't see something or, you know, if I
• 28:42
  needed an extra screen or I don't know, or if I, I learned,
• 28:48
  for example, by practicing. So you show me something, but
• 28:52
  then I need to do it myself and being open as I am.
• 28:57
  And again, I think when I was very, very young, probably I
• 29:01
  wouldn't do it because I would be scared that I would be seen
• 29:04
  differently or bullied or but then I always kind of advocated
• 29:08
  for myself to a certain extent. And I think everyone, you know,
• 29:15
  whatever it is, because for example, with my eyesight, which
• 29:18
  is really bad, you know, it's not neural divergent, but you
• 29:24
  know, I know that I have it. I have it since birth.
• 29:28
  And somehow I felt I started feeling empowered to say, look,
• 29:31
  I need this, I need an extra screen or, or, you know,
• 29:35
  whatever I need. And I think you shouldn't need
• 29:39
  the diagnosis to have to have support.
• 29:42
  Reasonable adjustments. Regardless of you being neuro
• 29:45
  divergent or not, you, you will have different needs because we
• 29:50
  are all different and, and unique.
• 29:53
  So yeah, it's, it's quite, I think it's also quite tricky
• 29:57
  because, you know, these new era of influencers, you know, I
• 30:03
  think there's many people who think that, oh, now everyone is
• 30:07
  neuro divergent or now everyone is autistic and aren't we all
• 30:10
  autistic? And I think from my point of
• 30:13
  view, for example, when I seek the diagnosis and the
• 30:15
  assessment, think these voices that I had in my head, you know,
• 30:20
  if I don't have a scientific proof that, you know, I am neuro
• 30:26
  divergent, people will not believe me, which is very
• 30:29
  stupid. You know, I shouldn't care about
• 30:31
  what people think or not, but the truth is that it helps you
• 30:36
  validating yourself and it empowers you somehow.
• 30:40
  Yes, it's a bit piece of paper. It's a report that you have, but
• 30:45
  it shouldn't have to be like this.
• 30:48
  And hopefully in open conversations, we are also
• 30:51
  empowering other people to, to advocate for for their needs.
• 30:58
  Yeah. No, it's, it's an extremely
• 31:01
  important step in, in I think meaning making and, and
• 31:05
  identification, self identification and things like
• 31:08
  that. And, and yeah, and I do think we
• 31:11
  just need to find a better way of kind of doing that in a way
• 31:17
  that allows it. Yeah.
• 31:18
  It's interesting that you, you, you bring up the sort of the
• 31:22
  influences and things like that because I do think it's, it's,
• 31:25
  it's, it's a tricky time and it does well.
• 31:29
  So it's, it's often spreading the message well and things like
• 31:32
  that. It also kind of kind of
• 31:34
  backfires in many ways. This is a tricky space to
• 31:36
  navigate and there are a lot of heated conversations happening,
• 31:40
  which can sometimes be beneficial and sometimes
• 31:44
  backfire on the community and community needs.
• 31:47
  And sometimes even even dangerous.
• 31:49
  I see many things that I'm like what?
• 31:53
  Like, I think there's this woman in South America or, or in
• 31:56
  America, She's what is it? She's she has loads of followers
• 32:04
  on Instagram and she's saying that a product with bleach cures
• 32:08
  autism or something. Well, there's also a guy in
• 32:13
  America that's saying some interesting things.
• 32:16
  He's very influential. Yes, very true, but let's not
• 32:20
  even go into that. So yeah, it, it can be, it can
• 32:26
  be dangerous. But you know, I do a lot of
• 32:29
  stuff on social media, but the way I see myself is, you know,
• 32:32
  I'm not an influencer. I don't want to be an
• 32:34
  influencer. I just want to, you know, be
• 32:37
  open and bring these voices together who share their lived
• 32:40
  experiences, which are unique. But yeah, sadly gets in our
• 32:45
  heads because it's it's a completely new world compared to
• 32:50
  when we were younger. So indication is brilliant and
• 32:55
  you know, globalization and all of us being a lot closer
• 32:58
  together. But then it does have its
• 33:02
  downsides as well. OK, moving on to Co production
• 33:08
  and how you center neural divergent voices in in your
• 33:12
  work. So how what does meaningful Co
• 33:16
  production actually looks like for you?
• 33:21
  I think meaningful Co production really means sitting at the same
• 33:27
  table with the same sort of height of the seats, right?
• 33:33
  It's not, it's it. I don't think it's Co
• 33:36
  production, if as as researchers, we kind of only go
• 33:41
  to our limited experience groups or advisory groups and go, you
• 33:51
  know, here's what I'm here's what I've done.
• 33:55
  Can you now clap for me sort of thing like it's, you know,
• 33:59
  that's more of a dissemination of your findings and things like
• 34:03
  that rather than working with people.
• 34:06
  So I think it's, it's kind of really, and it's difficult,
• 34:10
  right? Because obviously, you know, we
• 34:12
  spend many years working in particular fields.
• 34:16
  We, we, we generally put in a lot of effort to make sure that
• 34:19
  we understand as, as broadly as we can and sort of thing.
• 34:24
  And, and I can understand how that can be kind of tricky to
• 34:28
  people to kind of go like, oh, well, but now I'm going to have
• 34:31
  to, you know, speak to people where I don't really know what
• 34:36
  their sort of expertise is and why, why, why should I listen to
• 34:39
  their opinions? But The thing is like lived
• 34:41
  experience expertise is an important expertise that often
• 34:45
  we sort of lack as well. And even I think, and that's
• 34:49
  really personal opinion, but I'd say that even the, you know,
• 34:52
  divergent researchers strength, while you kind of have a mix of
• 34:55
  both those experience, expertise and research.
• 34:59
  There's, you know, there's, there's, there's certain ways of
• 35:03
  thinking that we learn and certain ways of, of dealing with
• 35:06
  the research that we learn that can get really into not badly
• 35:10
  intended, but kind of just formulaic way of conducting
• 35:14
  things. And sometimes you just need a
• 35:16
  good outsider perspective of going like, wait, that doesn't
• 35:19
  make sense. That doesn't make sense in the
• 35:21
  real world. That doesn't really make sense
• 35:23
  in how people are kind of thinking about this or just kind
• 35:27
  of people reminding you that in general, maybe that's your
• 35:31
  special interest, but actually the population out there doesn't
• 35:34
  know what you're talking about and why this would be of
• 35:36
  importance. So just kind of make putting it
• 35:39
  a bit in the context is really important.
• 35:41
  But yeah, so I'm rambling a little bit, but as I say, it's
• 35:44
  really kind of coming to you now for me as a proper roundtable
• 35:48
  and going like, OK, actually the outcome will probably lead to
• 35:52
  some things that maybe I wouldn't choose to do or I
• 35:55
  wouldn't choose to put forward because I have, you know,
• 35:59
  particular, you know, evidence based or personal opinions that
• 36:03
  will would probably guide me away from it.
• 36:06
  But it's kind of accepting that actually if we are Co producing
• 36:10
  and we are coming to this in equal rights, that means that
• 36:13
  everybody, this voice does matter to the same degree.
• 36:17
  And my advisors have just as much right to veto me and
• 36:22
  challenge me as I have them, sort of thing.
• 36:25
  And we really want to achieve something at the end that allows
• 36:30
  for all of those voices to be heard and their views to be
• 36:32
  incorporated because their expertise is there.
• 36:35
  It's just coming from different sort of walks of life, really.
• 36:41
  Yeah, I feel like that's part of the answer.
• 36:43
  Was there a second part of the question?
• 36:45
  Yeah, just actually what have neural divergent young people
• 36:50
  and and the parents you, you work with taught you that has
• 36:55
  kind of shifted how you approach research and and systems?
• 37:01
  A lot of things over over over the years really.
• 37:07
  So I'd say that the actual way of of me currently conducting
• 37:15
  research, like the questions they raise and things like that
• 37:20
  really comes from conversations with neurodivergent people and
• 37:25
  comes from sort of talking with people and learning about how
• 37:30
  much they're sort of falling through the gaps.
• 37:33
  It come. You know, that's, that's
• 37:35
  something, you know, I've been trying to sort of work towards
• 37:39
  for, for a long time. And, and it's something that
• 37:43
  wasn't accepted and kind of known when I sort of started
• 37:46
  having those conversations and often was sort of encounter a
• 37:49
  bit of like, well, you say that, but like there's no evidence to
• 37:53
  show that this is happening. And I'm like, well, yes, but
• 37:55
  there's a bunch of people telling us that that's actually
• 37:58
  happening. So maybe we should try to see if
• 38:00
  there's evidence for this, if this is a more global experience
• 38:04
  and more generalizable experience.
• 38:07
  So I'd say, you know, I, I do my best to make sure that the
• 38:12
  insights shape my research. So I guess in terms of the
• 38:14
  previous question, a part of it is also, so it's making sure
• 38:17
  that people are at the same roundtable, but it's also making
• 38:19
  sure that people are involved from early on and that it's not
• 38:25
  just kind of a thing that you do at the end.
• 38:29
  So for example, as you know in in the current work with
• 38:33
  administrative research data. So I realized that I haven't
• 38:36
  explained to the listeners maybe what administrative research
• 38:38
  data is. So which might be an important
• 38:42
  point. Yes, I've always intended to do
• 38:45
  it at this point get you in the conversation.
• 38:49
  So administrative data is the data that's that's collected
• 38:55
  quite on regular basis anytime we interact with with government
• 39:00
  funded systems really. So for example, anytime we go to
• 39:05
  a school, anytime we go and interact the social care
• 39:10
  services, anytime we go for NHS funded help, whether it's mental
• 39:17
  health support, A&E or or general sort of outpatient or
• 39:24
  admitted patient care sort of information.
• 39:27
  So this is not a research data. This is the data that's
• 39:29
  collected for the purposes of of of running those services and
• 39:37
  it's a very high order information.
• 39:39
  So we're not getting much of detail on sort of in depth
• 39:45
  detail on why, how, what people are doing there.
• 39:48
  The information that's that, that that's given is quite
• 39:51
  statutory, which means that the government sets sort of
• 39:55
  parameters for different local authorities, for different
• 39:58
  schools of what they should be reporting on, on each different
• 40:02
  child, what information is important for them to return
• 40:06
  back to the government. And and that's the data that I'm
• 40:09
  kind of working in in this project.
• 40:13
  So because of all of that and because of the way, because this
• 40:18
  data has to be held extremely securely, because as I say, it's
• 40:21
  not a very in depth information, it obviously does relate to a
• 40:25
  lot of people's personal experiences and different
• 40:28
  interactions with different services.
• 40:30
  We don't get information like people's names or or anything
• 40:35
  like that. It's all de identified and based
• 40:37
  on, on sort of pseudo IDs and anything that could identify
• 40:42
  people is removed as much as possible.
• 40:44
  However, still, there's a lot of data and a lot of information.
• 40:47
  And, and because of that, we need to be extremely secure
• 40:50
  about how we use it. There's a lot of rules and
• 40:53
  regulations on how and who can access it under what
• 40:56
  circumstances, in what ways, right?
• 40:58
  We, we're, we're trying to be as safe as possible to make sure
• 41:02
  that the people's identities are protected and that this also
• 41:05
  that this data is not misused in some ways.
• 41:09
  So that means that in some ways my hands are quite tight in what
• 41:13
  I can do in this project because there's a lot of different
• 41:16
  restrictions and a lot of things have been signed off on, on what
• 41:20
  can be done. So I did think at the beginning,
• 41:23
  I did think that that might be a challenge that that was sort of
• 41:26
  advisory work. But actually I feel it's been so
• 41:30
  useful and, and really has allowed us to really tap into
• 41:36
  the kind of interpretations and what's missing in sort of our
• 41:40
  our consultations and sessions and making sure that the things
• 41:44
  that the data cannot show are really addressed rather than
• 41:49
  necessarily thinking of, OK, well, how do I analyze this
• 41:53
  particular thing sort of thing, right?
• 41:55
  Because actually that's probably not where it would be a most
• 41:58
  useful sort of space to spend our discussions anyways.
• 42:03
  So actually it's been, it's been really helpful to be able to go
• 42:07
  to a group of people who are invested and understand what I'm
• 42:10
  talking about and agree this is sort of the importance of the
• 42:15
  work, but really can challenge things beyond sort of my
• 42:21
  expertise and going like, well, yes, that actually absolutely
• 42:24
  makes sense. The power experience or no,
• 42:26
  doesn't because, you know, that's actually probably an
• 42:29
  artifact of the data and how that's being recorded.
• 42:33
  So it's it's it's it's I feel like talking with you guys
• 42:37
  changes my sort of perspective each time and actually really
• 42:41
  shapes the research I conduct and the decisions I make.
• 42:45
  Yeah, we need to arrange the next session because I do have a
• 42:48
  bunch of questions that I need to ask you guys.
• 42:51
  We look forward to it. And yeah, it's quite interesting
• 42:54
  because you know that I'm involved in other research
• 42:56
  projects and yours is quite unique in, in that sense.
• 43:01
  So yeah, I always feel like I, I don't contribute much, but I
• 43:05
  think I also have updates now because we, yeah, we, we just
• 43:08
  started the process of the ADHD assessment for, for my daughter
• 43:13
  as well. So yeah, I'll have things to
• 43:16
  update you one and to help me. OK.
• 43:20
  And then I think you actually chose the right time to better
• 43:24
  explain administrative data because now we're moving on to
• 43:27
  the from research to real world change.
• 43:31
  So besides, you know, working with, with, with your Advisory
• 43:36
  Board and, and the public and, and patients, you also work with
• 43:40
  practitioners and commissioners. So what are the biggest barriers
• 43:46
  to translating neuro diversity affirming research into
• 43:50
  practice? Anything that you've faced so
• 43:52
  far, you might, It could be that you haven't faced any barriers
• 43:55
  or challenges, but anything you could share?
• 44:00
  Yes, that would be nice if there were no barriers or challenges.
• 44:03
  No, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a relatively new sort of venture
• 44:09
  for me sort of getting into the space of policy in particular.
• 44:14
  But you know, having sort of starting to conduct this work in
• 44:20
  really systems level and thinking at these bigger
• 44:22
  pictures. It kind of made me realize that
• 44:25
  really as we're sitting at this round table and, and, and making
• 44:30
  sure that we're combining the views of, you know, divergent
• 44:34
  young people and their families and researchers, that we're
• 44:39
  really missing an important lever in the sort of the theory
• 44:43
  of change and the sort of the power dynamics, which is the
• 44:46
  people who are actually making those decisions and assigning
• 44:50
  those fundings and, you know, deciding what kind of services
• 44:54
  are being provided for different people.
• 44:56
  And things like, I mean, this episode makes them sound like
• 44:59
  they're very, very powerful and it's just based on their whim.
• 45:01
  That's not the case. So, but they are really
• 45:05
  important part of the conversation.
• 45:07
  And I feel like it's really, it's really important to make
• 45:11
  sure that we work together with policymakers, both local and,
• 45:15
  and national level, to make sure that the things that we're
• 45:18
  actually providing as researchers and the research we
• 45:22
  produce is something that can be generally, then that sort of
• 45:27
  happens in the form that can be then taken and used to inform
• 45:32
  the decision making or, or be implemented in the real world
• 45:36
  rather than something. I'm not saying that the blue sky
• 45:40
  researcher trying to just understand things is not
• 45:42
  important. I love blue sky researcher come
• 45:44
  from cognitive psychology experimental background.
• 45:46
  But it's, it's kind of going like, well, OK, actually if you
• 45:52
  want the change to happen, we need to make sure that those
• 45:55
  people are also involved from the beginning.
• 45:58
  But there are a lot of challenges in working in that
• 46:02
  space. And again, the challenges don't
• 46:04
  come from people not understanding, not wanting to
• 46:07
  work together, not really prioritizing this field.
• 46:11
  I'd say the more I'm more I talk the, the, the different policy
• 46:17
  people, the more I see that really the heart is in the right
• 46:20
  place, the expertise is in the right place.
• 46:23
  And, and really again, they're just their hands are often tied
• 46:27
  by the timing, by the funding, by the sort of different
• 46:32
  restrictions on, on, on, on, on different things that they're
• 46:36
  allowed are not allowed to do or the systems that are there to
• 46:40
  kind of implement it. So I feel which is, you know,
• 46:44
  it's good. It's a good change that because
• 46:47
  I do think it's a change and quite a recent development that
• 46:52
  people understand the needs and want to make the change.
• 46:56
  But also there is a bit of everybody's wondering to figure
• 47:01
  out how we can do it better. So it's a good moment to kind of
• 47:05
  do that because I feel like there's an interest from both
• 47:07
  sides from both research perspective and policy
• 47:11
  perspective to make sure that the there is a more
• 47:14
  translational pipeline and that we are making sure that that
• 47:18
  research gets gets implemented. But yeah, so I'd say generally
• 47:22
  the main challenges are the timing.
• 47:25
  Things have to happen quite quickly in the policy space and
• 47:29
  the decisions have to happen quite quickly.
• 47:34
  The limited funding there are ring fenced pots of money
• 47:40
  towards mental health sort of supports.
• 47:43
  There's restrictions on, you know, it's ultimately if you put
• 47:49
  more money in one area, you're going to have to take it from
• 47:51
  somewhere else. So making those decisions can be
• 47:54
  really tricky. And the kind of obviously the
• 48:00
  control from higher ups. So anytime government changes or
• 48:03
  things like that, obviously it trickles down in terms of
• 48:06
  priorities and, and, and all the work that's being done.
• 48:10
  So, so that can massively undermine the work that's been
• 48:15
  happening over time. So I'd say that those are sort
• 48:19
  of main challenges. And then there's like a little
• 48:22
  challenge of language really and sort of, and I think there's
• 48:28
  been a challenge between researchers and neuro divergent
• 48:31
  people for for a longest time. And we're, you know, hopefully
• 48:35
  bypassing that, that timeline and kind of getting into like,
• 48:39
  OK, we are now on the same side of, of, of, of, of talking about
• 48:43
  this. And, and we can make sure that
• 48:45
  that's done correctly. It's kind of the same with
• 48:48
  policy people. And not necessarily in terms of,
• 48:50
  you know, a person first or identity first language or
• 48:53
  anything like that, or sort of medicalized models.
• 48:56
  But in general, more of the way that the change is being
• 48:59
  discussed requires kind of different language.
• 49:01
  And it's, you know, as any sort of industry, it will have its
• 49:06
  own specific jargon, which can be hard to then make sure that
• 49:09
  it's second to incorrect pathways, but that can be quite
• 49:13
  easily learned. Yeah, and if you could change
• 49:19
  one thing about child and adolescent mental health
• 49:23
  services tomorrow, what would it be?
• 49:30
  In the UK at the moment deal that are waiting this issue I
• 49:35
  think. I think 1's last adult gift
• 49:40
  there's there's a lot of trickle down improvements that can be
• 49:44
  made, as I say, based on, you know, conversations with
• 49:47
  practitioners, clinicians and conversations that policy
• 49:50
  people. We are in a good space where
• 49:53
  most of the people understand what's needed.
• 49:56
  They just don't feel like they're able to deliver it
• 49:59
  because of the different constraints that they might
• 50:01
  have. And so if you like, if people in
• 50:05
  chem services weren't as restricted in terms of time that
• 50:09
  they can spend with their young people or when they managed to
• 50:12
  see them. Because obviously if somebody
• 50:16
  has to wait from three to 10 years for a diagnosis, by the
• 50:19
  time they're seen ten years later for a diagnosis, you know,
• 50:23
  there's the supports they need are probably, you know,
• 50:28
  escalated quite a bit. So I think just kind of dealing
• 50:34
  with that would be, would be a major boon to the, the, the
• 50:42
  supports that might be then made available.
• 50:44
  So I'd say if I have to choose one thing and if it's
• 50:46
  specifically in the UK, that would be my priority.
• 50:49
  Yeah, yeah. And if you could do that, we
• 50:53
  would all be very, very grateful.
• 50:56
  Oh sure, I'll get on it tonight. Now I'm quite curious to to hear
• 51:04
  your answer to the superpower and superhero question later on.
• 51:09
  So we were you were talking about language and we still use
• 51:15
  deficit based language in in mental health.
• 51:19
  So how do you think we can start dismantling that without losing
• 51:24
  access to to support? Yeah, I, I say, yeah, a lot,
• 51:33
  don't I? It's, it's a tricky one because
• 51:38
  as I say, I also understand why the systems are certain ways
• 51:43
  that they are. So obviously there's limited
• 51:46
  resources, the supports are there for kind of deficits and
• 51:52
  distress, right. So it kind of makes sense that
• 51:55
  in those spaces the focus sometimes is on the distress to
• 52:00
  a degree, right? Because I understand that, you
• 52:03
  know, if somebody's not experiencing the stress, then
• 52:07
  maybe they don't need additional support kind of thing because
• 52:10
  obviously the supports are there to kind of deal with the
• 52:14
  consequences of it. There's a whole other
• 52:15
  conversation of why I think early prevention matters so much
• 52:18
  because ideally we aren't even getting to the point of
• 52:21
  distress, but and then, you know, it's all a midpoint and we
• 52:26
  can just just just focus on strengths because, you know,
• 52:30
  hopefully we have removed the distress as much as possible.
• 52:34
  But I do also think it's having said that I don't think that
• 52:42
  purpose of, of, of dealing with distress in the support systems
• 52:46
  necessarily means that we, we cannot use neurodiversity
• 52:49
  affirming or, or strength based language, right?
• 52:53
  We can still be kind even in situations when and kind of, you
• 52:59
  know, have a wholesome conversation, wholesome point of
• 53:03
  view by even recognizing that something can be distressing.
• 53:11
  So, and having said this as well, like, you know, we
• 53:14
  obviously talked about deficit language and I kind of jumped to
• 53:18
  the, the stress element because I think that's a really
• 53:22
  important distinction because I don't think there should, you
• 53:26
  know, we really should be having conversations about deficits at
• 53:30
  all, really, because what is the deficit like, you know, it
• 53:34
  gives, it moves the focus on to something being wrong with the
• 53:38
  person. Well, I, you know, personally
• 53:41
  and, and, and, and based on the research, don't necessarily
• 53:46
  agree with that point of view, because I do think that often
• 53:49
  just indicates A mismatch with the environment.
• 53:52
  And we all are different and we all have differences in how we
• 53:56
  see the world, how we deal with the world, what we like, what we
• 54:00
  don't like, what we find challenging, what where our
• 54:03
  strengths lie. So for example, you know me like
• 54:10
  I'm not very good swimmer, for example.
• 54:12
  I wouldn't say that's a deficit. I just avoid being in water.
• 54:15
  So to think like it's, it's there's probably better
• 54:19
  examples, but still. So, yeah.
• 54:22
  So I think moving from the kind of trying to look at what's
• 54:28
  wrong with the person in this kind of objective, supposedly
• 54:37
  objective way of going, here's an average person that doesn't
• 54:41
  exist and here's you, where do you not live up to this average
• 54:46
  expectation? I don't see much of benefit of
• 54:50
  that. Where I do see the benefit of
• 54:53
  even in a bit more of a negatively made word language is
• 54:57
  going like, OK, well where is actually the stress happening?
• 55:01
  Where's the impact happening to your functioning in day-to-day
• 55:06
  life where maybe something should be done?
• 55:09
  And whether that might be coming from maybe a person's individual
• 55:13
  differences or maybe it's coming from the mismatch of their
• 55:18
  environments or just lack of of supporting environments would be
• 55:23
  a much more useful sort of approach of really identifying
• 55:29
  modifiable things in their life that are appropriate as the sort
• 55:36
  of the cause of their distress rather than necessarily
• 55:39
  something that they're just different and that might not be
• 55:43
  have got relevance at all. And it's about changing the
• 55:45
  environment around them. Exactly.
• 55:48
  The the person themselves. Yeah.
• 55:53
  And obviously then it's yeah, as you say, you know, and, and
• 55:57
  using affirmative, affirmative language and including things
• 56:01
  like strengths and assessments and things like that.
• 56:03
  That doesn't that no way means that the care should be that the
• 56:07
  person needs less care. Or So just because we actually
• 56:10
  remind them also that it's not, you know, and have space to talk
• 56:14
  about the things that they can use and skills and the
• 56:19
  environmental benefits that they have and privileges that they
• 56:23
  have that they could maybe lean onto as a way of support and
• 56:27
  things like that or generally celebrating their strengths.
• 56:31
  That doesn't undermine the fact that if there is the stress
• 56:34
  happening somewhere that needs to be built there.
• 56:35
  So that shouldn't be the drawing that has.
• 56:37
  It's kind of, yeah, it's, it's often just kind of giving more
• 56:42
  space and compassion, I feel like, which at the moment our
• 56:44
  systems don't always love for. Yeah, I think from the the
• 56:50
  neural divergent person point of view, of course there are times
• 56:53
  in your life when, you know, it's very easy for you to forget
• 56:57
  your strengths and, you know, if you're going through anxiety,
• 57:02
  depression and all of that. So that I think that imposes a
• 57:05
  challenge on, you know, bringing the the strengths and, and the
• 57:10
  affirmative language and, and approach to, to things.
• 57:14
  But we all have strengths, as you were saying, you know, we
• 57:18
  will all be good at something and bad at something else.
• 57:23
  But you know, that's how we complement each other as, you
• 57:28
  know, as people, as a population, as as groups, as a
• 57:31
  community. Otherwise we would be very
• 57:34
  boring individuals. We would all like the same, be
• 57:38
  good at the same things. And then, you know, there always
• 57:41
  needs to be, I think about careers as well.
• 57:45
  You know, we, not everyone can go to university, not everyone.
• 57:49
  We need people to work in hospitality, we need plumbers,
• 57:52
  we need electricians. We need all sorts of of careers
• 57:56
  to, for the world to function, isn't it?
• 58:00
  So it's, it's quite similar in this sense.
• 58:02
  We need a combination of different strengths and, and
• 58:05
  also different, not weaknesses or deficits, but you know, the,
• 58:12
  the less positive things that we all have as, as human beings, we
• 58:17
  all need that because often is, you know, when sometimes you
• 58:20
  actually need to focus a little bit on those to be able to
• 58:24
  thrive again and get yourself back up.
• 58:27
  You know, it's like the emotions thing.
• 58:29
  You, you need sadness to actually, you need to experience
• 58:32
  sadness to experience joy and happiness.
• 58:35
  So yeah, it's yeah. And now I'm going on a tangent.
• 58:41
  I'm sorry, I was just thinking about.
• 58:43
  No, that's, that's a very, that's that's a very good
• 58:45
  tangent. And to be fair, I was kind of
• 58:47
  when I was saying earlier that I was like, oh, if we, if we
• 58:50
  remove the stress and I'm like, well, at the same time going
• 58:52
  like, well, actually, we can't really remove the stress per SE
• 58:56
  fully from a society, right? Because that's actually it's
• 58:59
  kind of your, you know, mass loss pyramid of needs sort of
• 59:03
  thing. There's always going to be
• 59:05
  something that you're striving for and trying to improve and
• 59:09
  the lack of will be causing a distress.
• 59:12
  And what were kind of the differences come in on is, is
• 59:16
  that thing just your, you know, basic rights to education, food
• 59:20
  and care sort of thing and making sure that you're not
• 59:22
  neglected and you're not, you know, harming yourself or
• 59:25
  others? Or it's it's more of the things
• 59:28
  of self actualization and, you know, being able to be happy
• 59:32
  with yourself and sort of your identity, right.
• 59:34
  So there's those kind of different levels of the distress
• 59:37
  where where that can happen. But there always will probably,
• 59:40
  you know, always exist at the IT is the human nature.
• 59:44
  Yeah, great. OK.
• 59:46
  So, moving on now to future directions, what excites you the
• 59:51
  most about where neuro diversity for mental health research is
• 59:55
  heading? Yeah, I think as I said, it's,
• 59:59
  it's, it's the fact that I actually have been seeing a
• 1:00:03
  change. I've been seeing a change in,
• 1:00:05
  in, in the conversations we're having the, the spread of
• 1:00:12
  understanding, you know? More and more sort of thing, you
• 1:00:17
  know, if I say, if I say, if I talk about neuro diversity to
• 1:00:20
  somebody, actually, you know, it's very rare that the person
• 1:00:22
  will kind of look at me and go like, what what are you going on
• 1:00:25
  about? What does that mean?
• 1:00:26
  It's like, oh, is that the poor children sort of thing?
• 1:00:29
  You know, that's not happening anymore.
• 1:00:32
  And there's general population there.
• 1:00:33
  If anything, I'll probably encounter more people who'll be
• 1:00:35
  like, Oh, well, actually let me tell you about my experiences in
• 1:00:38
  this. Or, you know, he has, you know,
• 1:00:40
  you should keep this in mind sort of thing and kind of saying
• 1:00:43
  their expertise or so. So, you know, I think, I think
• 1:00:48
  that's an important thing of like a change in sort of
• 1:00:51
  acceptance and, and it, it normalization in sense of like
• 1:00:57
  it, it, it is accepted as part of life and part of diversity
• 1:01:02
  rather than something that's looked down upon.
• 1:01:06
  And this move towards actually real motivation to work together
• 1:01:13
  from sort of policy sphere and research sphere and lived
• 1:01:17
  experience sphere. I feel like it's a really good
• 1:01:21
  move forward. And as I say, it's, it's, it's,
• 1:01:24
  you know, this particular research and this particular
• 1:01:27
  topic of looking at support needs and support gaps is
• 1:01:31
  something I've been told by neurodivergent people years ago,
• 1:01:35
  around around 10 years ago probably is when I really
• 1:01:38
  realized how big a problem it is.
• 1:01:41
  And, and it has, it has been an uphill sort of battle of, of, of
• 1:01:46
  making sure that people address that, that question and, and,
• 1:01:49
  and, and allow for that sort of conversation to happen.
• 1:01:53
  So the fact that it's like, you know, I'm not the only
• 1:01:55
  researcher at the moment working on these sort of questions.
• 1:01:57
  There's quite a few of us across the country and around the world
• 1:02:00
  looking into these questions from different sides.
• 1:02:02
  And, and, and, and really questioning where the system
• 1:02:05
  should be, should be improved or, or, or working on sort of
• 1:02:10
  more evidence based and population appropriate
• 1:02:13
  treatments and things like that. So there's a lot of people
• 1:02:15
  really that have shifted their focus to, to these questions.
• 1:02:18
  And again, they're being acceptable questions to raise
• 1:02:22
  and, and, and fundable questions to raise, which is quite
• 1:02:26
  important in our work. And I feel all of that is
• 1:02:31
  slowly, but it's moving to the right direction.
• 1:02:35
  So the fact that we can talk about this, we can question
• 1:02:37
  this, we can provide the evidence for these different
• 1:02:40
  things is a really, really strong point because that that
• 1:02:44
  means people are ready for the change, which hopefully means
• 1:02:48
  that then the change can happen. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:02:54
  And do you feel that there are any voices or perspectives that
• 1:02:57
  are still missing from the conversation?
• 1:02:59
  Or do you feel like at this point everyone who should be
• 1:03:03
  involved is definitely involved? No, I think there's there's a
• 1:03:08
  lot of voices missing from the conversation and I think so.
• 1:03:15
  I think a few times that then the, you know, our chat so far I
• 1:03:20
  have qualified things being in the UK or globally, right?
• 1:03:25
  And that's in part coming from me as listeners can hear, not
• 1:03:29
  being a native British person and having perspectives of I
• 1:03:35
  guess that's my difference. That could be perceived as
• 1:03:39
  deficit by some people, which is obviously not sort of thing,
• 1:03:42
  right. So it gives me a different
• 1:03:45
  perspective of sort of slightly looking at things, right.
• 1:03:49
  And I'd say conversations we're having in UK as well as as as
• 1:03:54
  issues we're having in UK that the systems don't necessarily
• 1:03:57
  apply one to one that the there's the different especially
• 1:04:02
  non-english speaking countries around the world.
• 1:04:05
  So that varies quite a lot at which stage of the conversation
• 1:04:10
  those countries and cultures might be how acceptable or not
• 1:04:13
  acceptable the concept of neuro divergences, the non medical
• 1:04:18
  model is, how acceptable the diagnosis is.
• 1:04:24
  And that applies to obviously then particular minority
• 1:04:28
  populations in the UK and sort of how acceptable or, or, or
• 1:04:37
  allowed young people might be to be seeking diagnosis or
• 1:04:43
  identifying the, the, let's say neuro divergent.
• 1:04:49
  So there, there's a, you know, there's a long history within
• 1:04:53
  this country of, of, of mistrust in different, different positive
• 1:04:59
  population and that really effects this field as well.
• 1:05:03
  And yeah, so I'd say different cultures, different countries,
• 1:05:09
  perspectives for one. Then there's an element of
• 1:05:13
  intersectionality as well. So, you know, again, we have had
• 1:05:19
  a lot of change in movements in the last 10 years on how women's
• 1:05:25
  neurodivergence is seen. I do remember when I was doing
• 1:05:28
  my PHDII had, I've been very lucky to have a high number of
• 1:05:36
  women taking part of my research and that was kind of seen as a
• 1:05:39
  bit of a surprise. And then the conferences and
• 1:05:41
  things like that, because that was, you know, we still thought
• 1:05:43
  that this very buoy driven sort of diagnosis.
• 1:05:50
  So there's definitely been change in that.
• 1:05:53
  However, again, when it comes to different cultural backgrounds,
• 1:05:56
  when it comes to different financial statuses and different
• 1:06:00
  sort of life experiences, I think that's that's the voices
• 1:06:03
  that they're definitely missing. And despite the fact that we
• 1:06:07
  have as a general field, there's been people really working and
• 1:06:12
  making sure that the nonverbal experiences are taken into
• 1:06:15
  account. I still feel like we're not good
• 1:06:18
  enough at making sure that we're providing appropriate spaces for
• 1:06:25
  nonverbal neurodivergent people to come in and, and and feed
• 1:06:34
  their point of view and sit at that table and have as rightful
• 1:06:38
  conversation. Yeah, totally agreed.
• 1:06:42
  And I relate with with the cultural diversity as well.
• 1:06:46
  You know, I often think that, you know, there must be, you
• 1:06:49
  know, being Portuguese as well, European, like, like, like, like
• 1:06:54
  yourself, We, even though we are still white European, I feel
• 1:06:59
  like having grown up or being raised in a different country
• 1:07:04
  definitely brings the, the, the different perspective.
• 1:07:09
  And yeah, the non speaking. It's one of those things that
• 1:07:13
  every time I have the opportunity to, to have
• 1:07:16
  conversations about research. I definitely agree that, you
• 1:07:20
  know, being the mum to she's not non speaking anymore because her
• 1:07:24
  speech is developing, but she was at a certain point and it
• 1:07:29
  can be, it can be challenging to, to communicate until you
• 1:07:36
  Start learning more about it and, and and you know, you know
• 1:07:41
  what you know, you might not know what they are thinking, but
• 1:07:47
  you kind of know your child. But it would be good to have
• 1:07:50
  more advance in in research definitely for for the non
• 1:07:54
  speaking autistic or neural divergent children and young
• 1:07:59
  people and and and adults as well.
• 1:08:03
  So yeah, it's it's good to see that the thoughts is is there
• 1:08:08
  and hopefully we'll have those those more included.
• 1:08:15
  Yeah. OK.
• 1:08:17
  And what questions do you think we should be asking neuro
• 1:08:22
  divergent young people that we don't often ask?
• 1:08:28
  Well, to be fair, I think that probably for me at the moment
• 1:08:32
  really relates to the, to the deficit sort of this language of
• 1:08:36
  it's moving away from talking about what doesn't work and
• 1:08:41
  what's bad and, you know, really kind of wallowing in sort of
• 1:08:48
  negative experiences only and moving to thinking about I think
• 1:08:53
  things that are good, right? And obviously that kind of
• 1:08:55
  involves them more sort of strengths based approaches and
• 1:08:57
  things like that. But also in this particular
• 1:09:00
  field of looking at support needs and and systems, it's kind
• 1:09:04
  of stepping back and thinking like, OK, well, what does
• 1:09:06
  actually work? Because because some of those
• 1:09:10
  things will especially when we're kind of thinking about
• 1:09:13
  prevention and thinking about that kind of influence of
• 1:09:17
  environment and, and how that can be protective.
• 1:09:20
  It's kind of really thinking, OK, well, what's what, what is
• 1:09:24
  needed in the environments to, to, to make the young person
• 1:09:29
  more resilient to developing mental health conditions, right.
• 1:09:32
  And developing anxiety or depression or sort of chest
• 1:09:38
  pains, internal distress and stress sort of things.
• 1:09:42
  So, yeah, so I think it's kind of, I feel like we're moving to
• 1:09:48
  the space where, where, where that's the conversations we we
• 1:09:51
  need to be starting having as well.
• 1:09:53
  It's actually what, what did work, what was good and, and how
• 1:09:58
  can we make sure that that's enhanced and available to more
• 1:10:01
  people rather than necessarily only focusing on where things
• 1:10:05
  are bad? Because I feel like also it does
• 1:10:08
  have an element of, of being much more translational in, in
• 1:10:12
  in a more positive way. So say that's quite important.
• 1:10:16
  Yeah, definitely. And what do you hope young
• 1:10:24
  people who might be listening or watching to the podcast, what do
• 1:10:28
  you hope they take away from from your work?
• 1:10:33
  I hope that they take away the fact that there's a lot of
• 1:10:36
  people who care and and a lot of people who are trying to make a
• 1:10:43
  positive change. While that's change might be
• 1:10:47
  slow, but I meet a lot of amazing people in my work.
• 1:10:54
  You know, as I said, sort of the clinicians and policy makers who
• 1:10:59
  who really have their hearts in the right place and are trying
• 1:11:02
  to do the best in their in the other than their constraints.
• 1:11:06
  I understand that there's also bad apples out there, but, you
• 1:11:08
  know, we're humans. We are all different to the, you
• 1:11:14
  know, young people and themselves and, and their
• 1:11:18
  families who are showing such resilience, such inspiration,
• 1:11:22
  really care for one another. And, you know, I get so many
• 1:11:25
  people going like, well, I understand this will not benefit
• 1:11:28
  me because change is low. But I want to make sure that the
• 1:11:33
  generations after me are doing better, right?
• 1:11:36
  So there's so many people who care and so many people who are
• 1:11:39
  trying to improve things and I feel like that's that's
• 1:11:43
  something that people need to know and accept and hopefully
• 1:11:48
  that's helpful. Yeah, I think it it, it gives
• 1:11:51
  people hope. Again, as you said, change might
• 1:11:57
  be slow, but it's it's happening and it will and it will come for
• 1:12:02
  sure. OK, so now moving on to the
• 1:12:06
  inner journey and to talk a bit more about you, if if I'm
• 1:12:10
  allowed, I'm curious to know who is your biggest support on your
• 1:12:14
  research journey? I've been very lucky with the
• 1:12:24
  people I got to work with, from mentors to colleagues to my
• 1:12:31
  advisors or clients and patients at the different time.
• 1:12:36
  And I feel that's been really important.
• 1:12:40
  So having people who believe in you sometimes when you don't
• 1:12:44
  believe in yourself and believe in your work, when sometimes you
• 1:12:47
  don't believe in yourself is extremely important.
• 1:12:50
  And, and the people guiding you through what can be done and how
• 1:12:57
  to do it is, is for somebody who's a first generation
• 1:13:00
  academic and doesn't come to it with the sort of the family ties
• 1:13:06
  of understanding how this world works has been extremely
• 1:13:10
  important. To have very supportive and
• 1:13:13
  generous mentors who have taken their time and given me the time
• 1:13:17
  and, and their expertise in, in going gently and, and patiently
• 1:13:23
  to pushing me to do, to do things or, or, you know, guiding
• 1:13:27
  me through the new experiences and, and how to navigate that.
• 1:13:32
  And then, you know, as I say, people like you, whenever,
• 1:13:35
  whenever we do talk about it, whenever you tell me how, how
• 1:13:38
  important you think my research is that, that, that is my heart
• 1:13:41
  thinking, right. And I, I sort of, you know, kind
• 1:13:45
  of go like, OK, actually, even on the days when it feels like
• 1:13:48
  it's not moving anywhere or, you know, when I'm encountering some
• 1:13:51
  sort of issues or when there's a lot of uncertainty and sort of
• 1:13:55
  academic curve years or sometimes you feel powerless in
• 1:14:00
  making much change that that means more than the world's
• 1:14:03
  words. And that's kind of really makes
• 1:14:06
  people like me go forward and go like, oh, actually, OK, this is
• 1:14:12
  not, this is just not just in my head.
• 1:14:15
  You know, there are people who agree that this is important and
• 1:14:19
  share the same, the same point of view.
• 1:14:21
  So, so, you know, so thank you for that.
• 1:14:22
  So you are one of the people who really support me.
• 1:14:26
  You're most welcome. It's, it's from the heart and I,
• 1:14:29
  I really mean it. And it, you know, it's just so
• 1:14:33
  important to have that community around us, isn't it?
• 1:14:36
  To reassure you and validate you.
• 1:14:39
  And one of the things, you know, working with many researchers
• 1:14:43
  in, in, in my role, one of the things I hear most is the
• 1:14:49
  imposter syndrome feeling. You know, that's, I think it's a
• 1:14:52
  constant in the life of a, of a researcher.
• 1:14:57
  And, and I do understand because I also, I also have it in, in,
• 1:15:01
  in a different way. So yeah, it's about having the
• 1:15:05
  right people by your side and mentoring you and guiding you.
• 1:15:10
  So yeah. But I'm very happy to be one of
• 1:15:14
  those people. And yeah.
• 1:15:16
  And I, yeah, I reiterate that your work is very meaningful.
• 1:15:22
  And yeah, I'm very thrilled to be a part of it and I can't wait
• 1:15:28
  to when we get to the findings phase for us to see what comes
• 1:15:34
  out of it. But I have no doubt it will be
• 1:15:36
  positive. OK.
• 1:15:40
  And you, I'm sure you are a very busy person with everything that
• 1:15:44
  you do. Is there anything you do to
• 1:15:46
  treat yourself with regards to your well-being?
• 1:15:48
  Any activities or hobbies or? Yeah, I'm probably not as good
• 1:15:55
  as I should be added. I think one of the the main
• 1:15:59
  things they focus on and try to impart on my the people I manage
• 1:16:07
  as well as my students and things like that is, is work
• 1:16:10
  life balance. Because, you know, as, as we
• 1:16:12
  have discussed and kind of touched upon a few times, change
• 1:16:19
  is slow. And this is a long, you know,
• 1:16:22
  it's the fighting that we're in for a long time rather than,
• 1:16:26
  than quick sort of gains. And it's extremely important
• 1:16:30
  that the evidence we produce is are rigorous and and careful and
• 1:16:37
  that we take time to and sort of take the space to make sure that
• 1:16:41
  everything we do is as correct and appropriate as possible
• 1:16:45
  possible. Because let's be honest, if we
• 1:16:47
  rush in search, we might as well be drawing things that crayon
• 1:16:51
  and going like, well, this is what, you know, we felt like
• 1:16:54
  today. And that's what I grant off
• 1:16:56
  because if we don't triple check and double check our evidence
• 1:17:01
  can, can have real harm. So we have to be mindful every
• 1:17:06
  step of the way. And I think for that sort of
• 1:17:08
  having boundaries and having work life balance and making
• 1:17:12
  sure that there's rest involved is really important.
• 1:17:17
  So that's probably #1. And then, you know, I, I, I love
• 1:17:22
  drawing. I feel like I'm very meditative.
• 1:17:25
  I just went out for a life drawing activity for a friend of
• 1:17:28
  mine last night, which has been really exciting.
• 1:17:32
  I get to through that, get to celebrate diversity in people in
• 1:17:36
  a, in a different way of, of rather than their minds thinking
• 1:17:39
  about their bodies, which I think is, is beautiful.
• 1:17:42
  But then I don't do that often enough.
• 1:17:45
  I really, I really should, I really should find time to do it
• 1:17:48
  more often because it is an important part of my well-being.
• 1:17:52
  Yeah. Yeah, it's difficult, but yeah,
• 1:17:57
  sometimes we really need to just, you know, be bossy with
• 1:18:01
  ourselves and, you know, just just do it because otherwise
• 1:18:04
  you, you don't do it. Do you, Andrea?
• 1:18:11
  So I'm going to start checking in with you from time to time.
• 1:18:16
  Have you been drawing? Have you been doing anything?
• 1:18:18
  I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be your accountability.
• 1:18:24
  Well I'll do the same. Make sure you start saying no to
• 1:18:27
  sometimes. Yeah, which I am very bad at, to
• 1:18:31
  be honest. I think these days it's not even
• 1:18:34
  about saying no to or it is, but it's to say no to my brain and
• 1:18:39
  to all the ideas that I have and that I want to make happen.
• 1:18:44
  So I need to find that ability. Yeah, no saying no.
• 1:18:48
  I think it's, you know, it's, it's also about pacing sort of
• 1:18:52
  things. So it's not necessarily always
• 1:18:53
  saying now, right? Sometimes it's just, it's just
• 1:18:55
  putting a pen in something. Yeah.
• 1:18:58
  Because at the end of the day, if you burn out, none of it's
• 1:19:02
  going to happen. So yeah, it's that balance.
• 1:19:06
  At least that's what I could tell myself.
• 1:19:09
  I know, I know. That's really good advice.
• 1:19:13
  But yeah, when you're a bit unpatient, well, I'm not a bit
• 1:19:16
  unpatient. I think I am unpatient.
• 1:19:18
  And period, Yeah. You just want things to happen
• 1:19:22
  from one day to another. And then, yeah, so my next
• 1:19:27
  question is. Who is your biggest inspiration?
• 1:19:31
  You might not have someone specific.
• 1:19:36
  Yeah, I don't think there's one person.
• 1:19:38
  I think, I think, I think it's all the, it's all the neural
• 1:19:42
  divergent, neural divergent people that I have had the
• 1:19:47
  privilege of encountering through sort of my career from
• 1:19:52
  sort of working in psych ward and sort of meeting, you know,
• 1:19:56
  children in foster care that have sort of not, not, not not
• 1:20:00
  been given the sort of things that they have rights in, in
• 1:20:04
  life for like family and love sort of thing.
• 1:20:11
  To you know, the, you know, the virgin people and, and their
• 1:20:17
  families that I'm working with currently.
• 1:20:20
  To, you know, the, the, as I said before, amazing women that
• 1:20:24
  I found met through, through my research career who have told me
• 1:20:28
  their stories about being diagnosed later in life and what
• 1:20:32
  that meant in, in, in their journey and in their life.
• 1:20:37
  To, you know, all the, all the people who have sat with me for
• 1:20:42
  four hours and reviewed my very boring cognitive experiments and
• 1:20:48
  sort of fed back to me to sort of tell me what will work and
• 1:20:51
  what will not work and how, you know, what maybe should be
• 1:20:56
  adjusted and to make sure that the experiences are more
• 1:20:59
  neurodiversity affirming. So all the people who kind of
• 1:21:02
  supported me in that learning journey and all the stories I
• 1:21:04
  hear, I feel like that's what inspires me day-to-day.
• 1:21:10
  Yeah, it's it's very difficult to choose only one.
• 1:21:14
  Specific person as an inspiration and, and again, it
• 1:21:18
  goes back to having those different perspectives, isn't
• 1:21:21
  it? And that, that diverse source
• 1:21:23
  of, of inspiration that, yeah, just helps you with keeping, you
• 1:21:30
  know, with going on with, with your work and with, with what
• 1:21:33
  you do. And we just reached the
• 1:21:37
  superhero question. So if you had a superpower or if
• 1:21:42
  you could be a superhero, what would it be or who would that
• 1:21:46
  be? And how would you change the
• 1:21:48
  world to be a better place for neuro divergent people?
• 1:21:52
  That's a such a good and horrible question.
• 1:21:55
  At the same time, that's one of the ones that I was kind of
• 1:21:58
  looking at and I was like, I don't know if I have an answer
• 1:22:00
  to that. You know, when I was younger, I
• 1:22:02
  always thought I wanted to be like in, you know, having
• 1:22:05
  visibility or flying or reading people's minds.
• 1:22:09
  The one, one thing I have to admit, none of those are for the
• 1:22:13
  purpose of changing the world for better.
• 1:22:16
  That's more coming from my own insecurities and wanting to know
• 1:22:19
  what people think about me or things like that or, you know,
• 1:22:23
  being able to escape or things like that.
• 1:22:24
  So I don't think any of them are particularly useful.
• 1:22:27
  And all of them have shortcomings, right?
• 1:22:30
  You can't really, you kind of have to have invisibility if you
• 1:22:33
  want to fly. Otherwise your neighbors will
• 1:22:36
  talk and probably freak out. So do they, you know, then you
• 1:22:42
  kind of have to have a bit of that carefulness with it as well
• 1:22:48
  of of of, you know, a lamp and 3 wishes sort of situation because
• 1:22:52
  you know that the Invisible Man. The book is really good and
• 1:22:56
  shows how that can backfire of if you, you know, just stay
• 1:23:00
  invisible forever afterwards. You know, even the the sort of
• 1:23:08
  the old male gets a movie of like, you know, the what was it
• 1:23:11
  called? The what women think or
• 1:23:14
  something like that, like 90s, early 90s.
• 1:23:18
  It's basically he he goes around, suddenly gets a
• 1:23:20
  superpower of being able to hear women's thoughts and very
• 1:23:25
  quickly regrets that sort of thing.
• 1:23:30
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:23:31
  So that was that was pretty good.
• 1:23:35
  So. Yeah, so I was thinking about
• 1:23:37
  that actually quite hard. And I think I landed on, I don't
• 1:23:40
  want any superpowers. I think I'm happy with the
• 1:23:43
  superpowers I have. You know, there's a lot of
• 1:23:46
  things I cannot do in life, but there's there's also things that
• 1:23:49
  I can that maybe other people can't.
• 1:23:52
  You know, I do have quite a mathematical and visual mind.
• 1:23:56
  I can see patterns and data and, and systems that some other
• 1:24:01
  people might not be able to, and I'm able to communicate that to
• 1:24:06
  people in a relatively straightforward way.
• 1:24:09
  And that's the kind of the superpower that I already have
• 1:24:12
  that I decided to lean into and, and, and try to use to make the
• 1:24:17
  world hopefully a better place. So, you know, as fun as it would
• 1:24:21
  be to have something else, I feel like it's probably would
• 1:24:24
  bring more trouble than good. So I'll stick to what I have.
• 1:24:28
  Of course. That's, that's a brilliant
• 1:24:30
  answer. And you are?
• 1:24:32
  Already, already preparing to change the world anyway.
• 1:24:36
  So it's about using your strengths as you, as you just
• 1:24:39
  said, to do it. So yeah, that's totally valid.
• 1:24:46
  And going on to music, if there was a song that captures your
• 1:24:52
  journey, again, it might be. Everyone says this is very
• 1:24:55
  difficult and some people name 2 songs or three.
• 1:24:59
  Is there a song that resonates with with your journey, with
• 1:25:03
  your life journey? I'm sure there is, but I don't
• 1:25:07
  know what what that song is. It's.
• 1:25:09
  Probably something about persistence and, you know, being
• 1:25:14
  blown in the wind or something, you know, being afraid of new
• 1:25:17
  styles. But I have no idea if that song
• 1:25:19
  exists and what that song would be.
• 1:25:20
  I'm terrible at like, actually remembering names of songs and
• 1:25:26
  all, just not one of my strengths.
• 1:25:30
  So yes, yeah, I will look out for a good song for you, don't
• 1:25:35
  worry. Yeah.
• 1:25:36
  Thank you. Might become my new anthem.
• 1:25:42
  And if you had the chance to go? Back in time, what would you
• 1:25:45
  tell your younger self to persevere?
• 1:25:51
  To to to not be afraid and and, you know, own the worst sort of
• 1:26:02
  thing to kind of carry on really.
• 1:26:07
  And and and that all will be fine.
• 1:26:12
  Yeah. I think that's something that we
• 1:26:14
  would we a lot of. Us would, would tell ourselves,
• 1:26:18
  yeah, that's absolute sense. And finally, if your heart had a
• 1:26:23
  voice, what would you tell us? That probably would be it.
• 1:26:34
  No idea. Like I mean, I, you know, do
• 1:26:39
  unto others as as you would like to be done unto you.
• 1:26:43
  I think is a powerful message and something I try to guide my
• 1:26:48
  life through sort of thing in a way.
• 1:26:50
  So that's probably what it would parrot back.
• 1:26:54
  Yeah, yeah. That's one of the first things I
• 1:26:57
  learned as a child. Actually, and I also obey too.
• 1:27:04
  Great. Thank you so much, Simona.
• 1:27:06
  It has been an absolute pleasure to have a chat with you.
• 1:27:09
  I actually learned a lot more about you today than in the past
• 1:27:13
  meetings that we've we've had. That was really good.
• 1:27:19
  Thank you so much. And we'll stay in touch.
• 1:27:21
  We'll continue working together on research.
• 1:27:26
  And yeah, I hope it all goes well.
• 1:27:29
  And yeah, well, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:27:33
  It's been an absolute. Pleasure.
• 1:27:34
  I kind of forgot that we're recording this for other people.
• 1:27:40
  Yeah, yes, it's a it's a lovely chat, so thanks so much.
• 1:27:43
  Yeah, you're most welcome. I think that's the good thing of
• 1:27:46
  of the newer Diverse Voices podcast it.
• 1:27:48
  Always feels more like a a chat and yeah, having a coffee with
• 1:27:53
  with a friend and than anything else.
• 1:27:55
  So yeah, that's good to hear. Yeah, good job.
• 1:27:57
  Good job. I'm crazy in that atmosphere.
• 1:28:00
  Yeah, I think it's a difficult. Task.
• 1:28:01
  Yeah, Thank you. Thank you so much.
• 1:28:24
  watching the Neuro Diverse. Voices Podcast.
• 1:28:27
  If today's conversation resonated with you, please know
• 1:28:32
  that you are not alone. Your experience matters, your
• 1:28:36
  voice matters, and your way of being in the world is valid.
• 1:28:41
  I'm Andrea Costa, and this podcast exists to celebrate
• 1:28:45
  neurodivergent lives in all their complexity, strength, and
• 1:28:49
  individuality. If you enjoy this episode,
• 1:28:52
  please subscribe, share it, and help these stories reach the
• 1:28:56
  people who may need them the most.
• 1:28:59
  Join me again next time for more honest conversations, powerful
• 1:29:03
  stories, and diverse perspectives.
• 1:29:06
  Because every neuro divergent journey is different.
• 1:29:10
  And remember, when you meet one neuro divergent person, you've
• 1:29:13
  only met one neuro divergent person.
• 1:29:17
  Until next time, take care, bye.