Latest / Skin Anarchy / Scalp Health, Hair Growth, and the Future of Hair Care with Dr. Aamna Adel of Rhute

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Scalp Health, Hair Growth, and the Future of Hair Care with Dr. Aamna Adel of Rhute · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is an episode focused on hair care today.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a while since we got to really dive very, very deep into the hair care world, understanding scalp care, understanding what the health of you know scalp and hair actually means in a multifactorial way.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh without further ado, I'm very much honored to be interviewing our guest today, Dr.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Amna Adele, who's really redefining the conversation around hair health.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she is also the founder of Roop.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome, uh Dr.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Adele.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so, so excited to host you.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me and for such a warm welcome and intro.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: So excited to be talking to you today.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's really wonderful to have this opportunity to chat because scalp care, I feel like has, and I don't know if you agree, but I feel like it's kind of reached an evolution, evolutionary milestone, I should say.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because we started with like not knowing what's going on with the scalp to knowing we have to take care of it.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're like in such a wonderful place.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to get this opportunity to chat with you.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would love if you could kind of start us off though, like what really got you into medicine?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're a consultant dermatologist and you have so much experience under your belt.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: What made you want to uh go into medicine?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that feels like a question from such a lifetime ago.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: But honestly, I think for me, I knew pretty early on that I wanted to be a doctor.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think like around 13 years of age.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think like my parents were kind of like, oh, like these are the kind of careers that you should think about, like with medicine being one of them.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that that that kind of like set like a little bit of a tone in my mind where I was like, actually, this sounds really interesting, and it's such a an amazing job where you actually get to give back and make a real difference, as cliche as it sounds, but it is honestly true.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like a job where you get so much job satisfaction, you're able to do so much.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So honestly, from a really young age, and I think from 13 onwards, I was kind of like tunnel vision towards getting into medicine and wanting to go to med school.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how it all really started for me.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you see, I love asking this question.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like I've said this a lot of times, but every time I interview um a doctor, I have to ask, you know, because our reasons for going into medicine are so different and they really translate, you know, it comes together.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like as you progress in your career, you start to see it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I'm ranting, but it's it's a question I really enjoy the answer to.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to get started.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you are truly um you've dug deep into scalp, and I know you really kind of specialize in that in your practice as well with understanding hair.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I I have so many questions, you know, and I would love to kind of pick your brain a little bit, if you don't mind, because I know a lot of consumers, a lot of our listeners don't really understand the true fundamentals of scalp health.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know there's a lot of like information out there, and that's wonderful, but like when it comes to the fundamental meaning of taking care of our scalp as it is, you know, skin, what are some things that you think should always be at the top of the list?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's a really great question.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, kind of like you mentioned earlier, I think scalp health has been overlooked for such a long time and people really focus on their mid lengths and ends and actually maybe overlook the fact that, you know, all growth is happening at the level of the hair follicle, which starts at your scalp.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Everything from mid lengths to ends is actually dead.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're thinking about really wanting to have healthy hair and you're concerned about like hair thinning and growth, where you need to start is really your scalp.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: What I always describe as kind of being the soil for growing anything great, like you know, it's that flower bed for having great flowers.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that when you're thinking about how to look after your scalp, actually you probably want to simplify things because your scalp is skin, it's an extension of the skin on the rest of your body, but it has its differences as well.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have more sort of oil-producing glands, you have more sebaceous glands, you also have increased nerve fibers, which is why people can get more sort of sensitivities and tenderness kind of to their scalp.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: It also has its own microbiome.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you have like natural organisms, feast and yeast and fungi that live on your scalp.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, when it comes to sort of scalp care and scalp health, I think really the scalp barrier is a great place to kind of start.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an area that is often really overlooked.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's been a lot more conversation around, you know, skin barrier health and understanding the importance of when your skin barrier is not quite in check, that's when you're going to get sort of dryness, irritation, flaking.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, it's the same when it comes to your scalp.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: So often a lot of people will experience issues like dryness, excess oil production, their scalp feeling quite uncomfortable.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that can really be a sign that your scalp barrier is impaired.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, really, the fundamentals of looking after your scalp is having a good hair care routine.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's so overlooked in terms of what you can actually do for yourself at home by using the right products, but also having the right behaviors when it comes to looking after your scalp.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And like a really simple example I would give of that is even blow drying your hair after you wash it and not going to bed with your hair wet.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is something that parents have spoken about.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, never go to sleep with your hair wet.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's true because when you do go to sleep with your hair wet, you get like an overgrowth of yeast, you increase your risk of fungal infection, you also get increased breakage of your hair strand.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, really, it's a lot about focusing on good hair care products which are going to strengthen your scalp barriers.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So things like niacinamide, panthanol, in the form of a serum.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think scalp serums are often really overlooked, but it's, you know, it's the same way that you look after your skin on your face, where you would use like a moisturizer or like a sunscreen.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, for your scalp, you should probably be using a serum.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And SPF when it comes to your scalp is also really important.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like the number of people that I see in clinic that have had a sunburn of their scalp along their hair parting is crazy.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And also like just thinking to men who are losing their hair, the number of sort of skin cancers and early sun damage that we see on the scalp is like fascinating.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, things like squamous cell skin cancers without getting too medical.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: The most common places that they tend to occur is actually head and neck because that's where you're getting the most sort of sun exposure.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, people are very much now really into understanding the importance of sunscreen and sort of the learnings that people have taken from skin on the rest of their body also needs to be applied to your scalp.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's uh thank you so much for going into that because the scalp care conversation from what I've noticed has been very much focused on put the hydration in, you know, put the things in that are really gonna nourish, just like skin, you know, just like we're trying to take care of the hydration and you know, reduce water loss, all that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: But then that's very interesting, what you just said, which is the SPF component and actually focusing on protection.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we start with that?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is it you wear a hat?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is that where you kind of should be focusing?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: How does somebody incorporate this in their daily life?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, absolutely, I would say a hat, you know, as far as sort of UV protection or sun protection goes, there's nothing better than barrier, in all honesty.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: That that is above sunscreen, and we always recommend doing both together.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, kind of covering up, wearing a hat is a great idea because you actually end up blocking almost all of UV rays.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not wearing hats, wearing sunscreen, which you apply to areas where you have exposed skin, but also where you may have, for example, like if people have got like sort of a widening parting, that really becomes an area that can get sunburned or people can develop certain types of skin cancers.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So making sure that you're applying a sunscreen directly to that area.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's not easy because I think a lot of sunscreens are quite greasy and they can be challenging to apply when it comes to the hair.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, there's now sprays which are out there.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: There are better sunscreens which are more in a gel version that can be a bit more practical to kind of apply, but definitely I'd say the combination of the two.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So sunscreen and wearing a hat, especially when you're out during periods of the day where UV is at an all-time high, which I would say is between 11 a.m.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: until 3 p.m.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you want to be the most vigilant.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: That makes it interesting.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna start doing that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't do that.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't do it and I should because um that's very, very important.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, I wish dermatologists would speak more about this, you know, the real importance of protecting all of our skin.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think we're getting there.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm sure you've seen it.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a surge in like body care now, which yes, you know, because that's most of our skin.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's very interesting.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to dive in because I know that your you creating root is, I think, amazing because I have been watching your content and I've been watching the education you put out, and it's very, it's very unique.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'll give you my example.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was started on GLP1s on the journey for almost a year, and I started, you know, literally losing globally hair, like way more hair.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it was even with a scientific background, it just didn't make sense to me when I dug into the, you know what I mean, like the pathways and stuff of like what is going on at large, you know, at the same time.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: One of my biggest questions for you is that they always say things like hyperpigmentation, hair loss.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: These are multifactorial approaches, especially from the pathway side.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: The so can you go into that for us?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are the things, like the big buckets we should be targeting when we're trying to grow our hair back, improve density?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really great question because I so agree with you that when it comes to sort of scalp and hair, that multifactorial approach is everything.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's not one magic bullet when it comes to actually growing your hair.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, kind of there's things that you can be doing yourself behaviorally, but if we kind of like split it up in terms of what you should be looking at, I think diet is a good place to start.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that having high protein in your diet is really important for healthy hair and healthy hair growth, but also addressing things like nutritional deficiencies.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really common reason why a lot of people experience quite a lot of hair shedding.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So in my practice, I tend to see a lot of low levels of iron and ferritin.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes your iron level can be within normal range, but your ferritin can be on the lower side.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for us, like when we look at the context of sort of hair shedding, hair thinning, or wanting to have fuller hair, actually your ferritin level should be 60 to 80.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I would definitely say like focusing on nutrition is really important.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as a first step, if you are losing hair or your hair is thinning, getting your lab work done by your doctor for things like vitamin D, vitamin B12, folate, and iron are really important places to start and really focusing on your diet and kind of increasing protein and you know, sort of those green leafy vegetables where you're going to be getting a lot of that sort of iron and other um sort of nutrients would be the first thing that I would kind of say.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then also another bucket is really thinking about how, in terms of like, I mean, this isn't really pathways, but one pathway that I would definitely talk about is DHT and the impact of DHT on the hair follicle.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for anyone who's listening to this that doesn't know what DHT is, it's it's essentially a hormone that can, it can be at increased levels in some people.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what it tends to do is it tends to shrink the hair follicle.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it means that the hair doesn't really mature in the way that it should do normally.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: It essentially stays almost like a baby hair, it doesn't mature and get thicker and then eventually it kind of falls out.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And often we tend to see DHT-related hair loss with things like androgenetic alopecia, which is extremely common.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably one of the most common causes of hair loss, and that's basically male and female pattern hair loss.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you also tend to see DHT related hair loss with things like PCOS, for example.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's an important one which affects a lot of people, and that's where things like minoxidil come in, but you also have more natural DHT blockers that we're getting more and more evidence around now.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Things like sore palmetto and pumpkin seed oil that naturally block DHT and can be useful if you're looking for a non-medicated option and you're not keen to kind of go down the pathway of minoxidil.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I think other things I would kind of say is like another big one is really the impact of stress on scalp and hair is huge.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that when I say stress, that doesn't just mean like emotional stress, which of course we all go through.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think naturally people's stress levels have like skyrocketed over the last couple of years.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think, especially like, especially after COVID.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean a COVID's a whole nother topic in itself.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: But when I'm talking about stress, like you have like your kind of emotional stress, but then you also have your like your physical stresses.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be like after having a baby and being postpartum or having had surgery or having an infection, which is kind of like COVID.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of like moves more of your hair follicles from the growth phase of your hair growth cycle into the shedding phase.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that essentially presents like people finding that they're losing huge amounts of hair, like in the shower, in their hairbrush, on their pillow.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's what we call telogen etheluthium, but that's again is another big one with the hormonal changes, that stress reaction, that cortisol that can kind of um really affects the hair growth cycle and lead to like quite extreme shedding.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really interesting that you brought up the DHT pathway.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know there's a lot of products on the market that are targeting Fifalpha reductase and you know, somehow working on the DHT pathway.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I it's really interesting for me because when I look at like wind signaling with beta catenin and stuff, that's also a pathway that never gets talked about for some reason, but that's the growth switch, you know, like wind signaling is what turns the genes on.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So why do you think it is that we don't focus there?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because every serum I see on the market, it's DHT focused, it's androgenic hair loss focused.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, why aren't we going to that, you know, on-off switch as well and combining the the two?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing that I would definitely say about the scalp and the hair space is that, and it was one of the reasons why I was so passionate about going into this field is because I feel there's so much more work and understanding and research that kind of needs to be done and really understanding like how do you bring that into more of like a kind of like a consumer space because I think formulation and development is very challenging in itself.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I would say is that when you are looking to different kinds of pathways and introducing those to kind of like consumers, there's a lot of education which also needs to be done there for people to understand what products are actually doing for them.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would say like, you know, the the landscape is changing really rapidly.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot more emphasis being put into scalp and hair being taken more seriously because I think for a long time it's kind of always the thing, even within dermatology, all of the focus goes towards things which are really considered as more serious uh, you know, medical problems like skin cancer, melanoma, even psoriasis and eczema.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the kind of the changes that we've had there have been huge in terms of research and biologics and different treatments that are now available.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel scalp and hair health is still very much bottom of the list.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we kind of need a bit more research, a bit more understanding, and a bit more kind of education around certain pathways and people really formulating to bring those things into consumer products.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the that's really, really great feedback.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, I think that's really important to understand what you just said that we do need to have more focus here because from my standpoint, yeah, we've been so hyper-focused on skin, especially facial skin aesthetics, you know.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the hair just always we never talk about it.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um on another note, um, I want to actually talk to you.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: You brought a really cool point up earlier, and that's more about that environment that our scalp is in.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: That made me think of inflammation, and it made me think of like all of the, you know what I mean, factors that really kind of irritate and inflame the microenvironment.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think are some of the very um key things that we can incorporate, you know, or that you incorporated in roots that were kind of focused on that inflammation component, that microenvironment component.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, scalp barrier and inflammation do quite strongly go hand in hand because your scalp barrier, like your skin barrier, is really responsible for keeping everything good in and keeping everything bad out.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, environmental stresses, bacteria, viruses, etc.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: When you have an imbalance of that and you naturally get an increase in levels of things like fungus on the scalp, or you get an increase of melestesia, which we all have, that in itself can lead to inflammation.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: For me, in roots, one of the key things alongside looking at actives that were really focusing on reducing shedding, increasing density, blocking DHT was actually looking at scalp barrier support, which I think is very overlooked.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So ingredients like panthanol and niacinamide have been put in there to not only hydrate the scalp, but really to help balance the scalp barrier, which I think is so important when it comes to thinking about inflammation and balancing your microbiome and the excess levels of yeast that a lot of people can experience.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting, you have the panthanol and niacinamide.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we always overlook them, I think, in skincare now because they become like almost dated ingredients.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting that you're now like, you know, we're bringing them back for the scalp.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, something like niacinamide, it's like it had like its moment where, you know, you were seeing it in a lot of skincare products, not really in the context of hair.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when I truly think about an ingredient like niacinamide, it's one that has got so much research and data behind it that although I think this is one of the problems I would say in the consumer space is that this real focus on trending ingredients and moving on to like what is the next trending thing?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: What is the next new thing that's gonna get people excited?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, you know, where does the data lie?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where is the science?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are actually the ingredients that are gonna really give you most bang for your buck when you're looking at formulating products?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, something like niacinamide is not as sexy anymore, but it is a great ingredient.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really about like re-educating the importance behind ingredients like that so that consumers know what it's actually doing for something like your scalp barrier and your scalp in general, versus them seeing that product and kind of thinking, like, oh, you know, niacinamide was all the rage and it's not anymore.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Medicine's not like that, you know, it's not really about like what is trendy in the same way in terms of like what's happening in the beauty space where you may have like, you know, it's the next hottest blush.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not biologically affecting your skin, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it works, works.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, yeah, as like science is science at the end of the day.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we can't, you know, pretend like it's not gonna work.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with you.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a lot of ingredients that we're just like, guys, this works, you know, and we're so hyper focused on like right now.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know biotech is like booming, you know, everyone's on, but it's like what works works, and it's it's going to keep on working.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there are there's so much data.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where also I get a little bit lost, especially with scalp care, because I'm like, why are we not going back?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know um I've watched some of your content where you talk about like tretinoin and like combining it with noxidel.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's like that's the kind of stuff that I wish we would talk about more.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, can you talk to us about the science of that?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why does that matter and why does that help?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, one thing that I would say is like just as a general point when we're looking at kind of treating the scalp and the routine and how we tend to use things together, is kind of what I mentioned before.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's like no one magic bullet when it comes to hair growth.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I say this in clinic all of the time.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's often a combination of using the right treatments in the right sequence, which is going to get you the best results.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: When we look at something like tretinoin and minoxidil, tretinoin essentially, you know, it's it's an ingredient that has been around for ages, but in the context of minoxidil, it actually just helps to increase the absorption of minoxidil and therefore you get better efficacy.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like getting your products to work harder.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think again, it kind of comes back down to rather than looking for the next new thing, how can we take existing things that we know have so much science and evidence behind them and pair them in ways where you're going to get better results?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots of data which looks at using minoxidal and tretinome in combination, plus even using a dermostamp in combination and how much better absorption, but also um an increase in the hair count and hair density you're going to get when you use that combination.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I mean it's really fascinating because you know, I like how you've built your brand to kind of incorporate all of these different, like really, really, I think nuanced components that we never thought about.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I remember when I saw the hair stamp first, I was like, that's brilliant.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's brilliant.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm always scared of, you know, there's the rollers that you can buy.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's I don't know, it doesn't feel controlled enough for me, you know, as a consumer.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really cool.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I would love for you to dive in actually to Root, if you don't mind.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want I want everybody to learn more about the brand and like what really inspired you for your hero skew, which is the CRM and the oil.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Could dive into that for us.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, Root is a brand that I really started thinking about almost two and a half to three years ago.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's really my baby.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: It has been such a passion project, I think, for me.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm a solo founder, there's no investors.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, when I first really knew that I wanted to create a hair care brand, like I'm saying, all those years ago, part of that was actually triggered by my own kind of like experience with hair loss, um, which I've spoken about quite openly on my socials, but that really was like a massive trigger for me.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, not to be like, again, for it to feel very cliche, but I think you'll agree that as a doctor, you know, you kind of see and treat things every single day, and you can to some extent understand what your patients are experiencing.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I think being the patient yourself is a very different feel.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I had like a very sudden episode of hair loss that happened in like over the period of a couple of days, and it was really unexpected.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember at the time how I felt, and like I think I can only talk for myself, but I feel like doctors are not great patients.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, I was just like, I was panicking, and you know, I was really fortunate that I had like my colleagues like who did a scalp biopsy and I got my diagnosis, but it really like set off something in me that really got me very interested in scalp and hair health.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think like when you've personally been affected by it, you're so invested in wanting to know like where are we at with research, the the conditions, the products that are available.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, over the last couple of years, I've really been on my own hair growth journey.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as part of that, you know, it's kind of what I've said to you, you have the medicated options, but you also have regular things that you use in your routine.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was kind of searching for those things, I was really confused.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I've got no idea where I start, what this product is meant to do, how is this different from this?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what should a good routine when we're going outside of medical treatment actually look like?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me as well, I think there was just not enough science and evidence in what it was that I was seeing.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: They'd maybe have like one ingredient, but then they hadn't really considered other elements of like the hair growth cycle, for example, or it just wasn't like a whole considered approach, which I think is so important when it comes to scalp and hair health.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, when I was really thinking about creating root, I knew I wanted to put something in the space that was really backed by like science and evidence.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it really bridged that gap between what I see and treat in clinic and what is actually available on the shelf.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that a lot of formulation and products that happen, they don't really have the insight into what patients and consumers are actually saying, the kind of issues that they are really experiencing.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think you'll you'll agree that when it comes to sort of like paying.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Patient care really adhering to whatever it is that somebody should be using is really important to see any type of results.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And people aren't going to use something if it is sticky, if it is greasy, if it's not practical to use.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, like, you know, that texture side of things and ease of use and really getting multi-benefit from one product was really important to me.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of where for me the scalp serum was really the first hero launch that I wanted to do because I was really thinking about this large group of people, not only in my own practice, but also in my online community that were experiencing hair loss and hair thinning for all different types of reasons.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, post-COVID, so many people were experiencing it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Postpartum, people were really like also leaning more towards really embracing their natural hair and wanting to understand how to look after their scalp.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we were moving out of this phase of people using hair extensions, wearing hair extensions, over-bleaching the hair, and people really wanting to go back to the source of making their natural hair better.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of those people didn't want to be on minoxidil or on medicated treatments.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like, you know, often as doctors in our practice, like there's obviously the medicated route, which obviously I still prescribe all of that all the time, like the minoxidil, the finasteride, other treatments that we kind of have.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: But what about the rest of the routine?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: How do you incorporate other products that are gonna support what medical treatments are doing and are also going to be an option for somebody that really, really doesn't want to go down that route?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: No consumer product is directly comparable to the medicated options that we have.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always very transparent about that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like nothing's really gonna like for like compare with minoxidal, but there are definitely things that we know from research and evidence in terms of like ingredients that can give you a similar benefit without having minoxidal in them.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's like that's so, so important what you're saying, because I feel like that has been actually the missing link because there's frankly not enough funding.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's not enough, you know, money going into this in a meaningful way, honestly speaking, from the allopathic medicine side.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: We have very limited drugs, we have a lot of data on those limited drugs, but there is a huge bridge that needs to be, you know what I mean, like made and filled.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I completely agree with you, you know, and this actually is a question I had for you because natural extracts really come in, like plant extracts, like all sorts of oils.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: People don't realize like there's a whole side of this like discovery, you know, for medicine that is still pending, you know, and a lot of people like they'll say, go to Ayurveda, you know, go to Chinese medicine, like go to these ancient understandings of herbs because you're gonna find certain molecules.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what do you think it's gonna take for medical practitioners to really kind of get on this in a meaningful way?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like when you talk about this stuff, everybody goes like, oh, hocus pocus, I don't want anything to do with it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not gonna get to the minoxinal and tretinoin.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's what I'm doing.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I quite completely agree because I think there's this idea of like, well, it must be woo-woo, like, you know, let's like really focus on like the drugs and the medication, which again is important, but I think it brings us back to this bigger conversation that we haven't even really got the fundamentals and basics of truly fully understanding scalp and hair biology.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first place that we need to start before we even get a chance to go down more of these natural botanical ingredients.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, in my practice and and when we're kind of looking at research, obviously the scarring alopecia are the most important because they're the ones that have lifelong lasting consequences for people.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for anyone that's listening, when we say scarring alopecias, that's a group of hair loss disorders where the hair follicle itself is destroyed.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So those people will never regrow their hair.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when I look at the research, like I can tell you, like, I could probably name like five medications that are used for pretty much anyone, regardless of what type of scarring alopecia they have.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that there's so, so much work to be done in terms of research and understanding that I hope that we get to a point of addressing those things first and then really looking at botanicals.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it, I have to be honest, and you know how it is with sort of research, it's like the priorities are always based on what is considered to be or perceived to be the most impactful.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I don't see that maybe happening for quite some time.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm being like really totally honest about it, even though I think it's important because you've got a huge group of people that want options which are considered like more natural.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't really like using the word natural because I don't think anything is truly natural, everything is a chemical, but at the same time, like there's a big group of people that don't want to go down the route of medication.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, we have to serve those people as well, because then what are their options?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or what can they be using in addition to the medical treatment that they're already using that we haven't even discovered yet, or we haven't really put in the funding to understand more?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I totally get that.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree with you.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like the funding is just it's just not there, and the pipelines to that funding are not there either, you know, like and I think consumers, this is an important conversation, honestly, for our listeners because there's a lot of people who wonder this, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're like, why haven't we poured more money into like serious research for things that are going to be almost preventative in the long run, you know, when it comes to this, especially dermatology?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is a field of medicine.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to say this, you know, for everyone listening, like this is the one field of medicine that intersects so heavily and so meaningfully with almost every other subdiscipline.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so for us to not see that funding come through, just like we never see it come through for women's health, it's like the most disheartening thing, you know, from the science.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It is really wild.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, it's it comes kind of back down to like the perception of hair being more of an aesthetic issue and almost not considered as being a real medical problem, but it absolutely is.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's really hard like to really champion um scalp and hair health, which I do all of the time because I think the for the higher powers, like to understand the impact that actually having scalp and hair disorders and having hair loss, what that does to people.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, obviously the funding is more towards, you know, like cancer research, of course, diabetes, cardiac disease, understandably, and it's like always dermatology, it's kind of put on the backseat, I feel, apart from like sort of melanoma research.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I mean, we're having lots more research done into things like eczema, psoriasis, even alopecia ariata recently, but I mean that's like that's been so incredibly recent, which is which is crazy to me.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And even now it's still not considered as important as other medical conditions.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, 100%.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I actually want to feed off of this and ask you because I know creating a brand in this space is incredibly difficult.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you are creating a blueprint from scratch, you know, in so many ways.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: So when you were putting root together, right, from the science side, what were some of those like hurdles or just like you hit a wall, you know, from the science or just the way you wanted to approach it?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, share some more stories with us, you know, about building the brand and the formulas.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, honestly, it has been such a journey.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, our first product that we launched, which was the density and repair scalp serum that came out in September, that as a formulation process was very, very complex.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And just for context, I've I've worked with cosmetic chemists on the products that we've bought out, but all the ingredient focus and what has been put into that product has been led by me based on my own clinical practice, the research, the evidence.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, like when I was thinking about like formulating the serum, for example, I was thinking about like multiple pathways.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about the hair growth cycle, I was thinking about like DHT, I was thinking about scalp barrier support.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that comes with a number of different actives, especially when I'm thinking about how are things like working together.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end, I think we we what we do, we have like over 16 actives in the scalp serum formula.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And there was definitely a point where my cosmetic chemist was like to me, she was like, you need to stop.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, you're not gonna first of all, it was really, really challenging to incorporate all of those actives into a lightweight daily serum that's not gonna make your hair greasy.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the more things you put into a product, the harder it is to formulate it in a way that's going to be cosmetically elegant for somebody to apply to their scalp.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes back to my point of what I was saying to you, which is like the adherence and compliance to actually using something that feels nice to use and is easy to use.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: You don't feel like it leaves your hair greasy.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's so, so important.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because if that's not bad, then why am I doing it?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because no one's going to carry on using it.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, we went through literally countless samples to really get it right.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And like I was we were just testing sample after sample.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some were like too thick and greasy, some of them were like too runny.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was just a very challenging formulation process to really incorporate everything that I wanted into a product.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I was so passionate about it.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I think I put my cosmetic chemist through her paces to really get it done.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then also for it to try to also think about the cost, I think, for consumers as well.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, for me, I really truly say it is like root is so much a passion project.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably like the worst business person because I'm always like, yeah, like let's not worry about that.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yeah, we'll just bring that, bring that down to this and we'll bring that down.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not thinking about like my margins like at all.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, it's about the product being something that's really going to work.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if we need to have more expensive active ingredients in it, then that is what we need to have.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, the the gold really with with a brand for me, for any of the products that we're putting out there is that they need to be efficacious.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's so incredibly important.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it has to be.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's like number one always.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I hear you.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think it's interesting because when I look at the hair, like especially the serums, right?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like the hair care serum category, I get really, really disheartened.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie, because everybody is trying so hard.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: I see so many people, and it's like, you know, they're like, I'm gonna use this religiously and I'm gonna watch this hair grow back, you know, and they're like checking every day.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, guys, like, I don't think you realize like half the stuff that's in these serums is not, it's not gonna work for you.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know what I mean.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like high and it doesn't biologically make sense.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think one of the biggest questions for me is when you're creating a product in this space that's actually gonna move the needle.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: What is the fluff that you had to get rid of and be like, I'm not doing this?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I'm not putting this in there, or I'm not gonna, you know, was there something like that where you were like, I know this is probably in almost every scalp serum, but I'm not, it's not for me.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't need this or something like that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a very good question.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know what?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's interesting.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's anything specifically that I had seen in other scalp serums that I thought was like really going viral, that I was like, I'm not gonna put it into my scalp serum.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I did see was the lack of clinically effective actives in other serums that were on the market.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, ultimately, I think going on the other side and understanding how formulation works, the reason why they're limiting it to one or two actives is because it's expensive.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or they maybe just don't understand the science when they're thinking about actually putting together a serum and how it's acting on the hair growth cycle, on DHC pathways and on the scout barrier.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's like a lack of understanding of like the science and the evidence and clinical practice, I'm I'm not really sure.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think definitely for me, where I felt a lot of the serums were lacking on the market was that they didn't address all of those things in one formula, but then they were selling the dream, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: What I would say is that I think there's a lot of overhype in kind of marketing and a lot of overpromising in terms of what something is actually going to do for your scalp and your hair.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that is not for me what root is about.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I never am gonna sit here and be like, oh, like only use my serum and just like forget about minoxidil.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, like that's just not how it kind of works.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think transparency in this space is really important.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you're going to make claims, then you're going to say things about your product, like you need to have the receipts to also back that up.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, aside from that, I think that's where the education becomes really, really important.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, when I'm talking to the products that we're developing, I'm trying to be very transparent about this is what you should expect at maybe like four weeks.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: This might is what you might expect at eight weeks, but really also talking to the importance of using it regularly in your routine, but being patient with results, right?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that there's a lot of this idea of like marketing to really hone in on very dramatic results because that's what pulls people in.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's just sets unrealistic expectations.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like the hair growth cycle, you, you know, it's the hair growth cycle.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's your biology.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's not going to be something that is just going to magically grow your hair, you know, over the period of one to two weeks.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not realistic.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where, you know, root really is about like the transparency, the education, but also helping people to help themselves when they're thinking about using products in their routine.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not just for us about, you know, use this product.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's also like we have a whole dermatologist-led blog on our website, which really focuses on lots of important scalp and hair health issues and talks to how people can be doing things for themselves at home.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's really gonna help improve their overall scalp and hair health.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really, I mean, that's I'm glad you're doing that.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, you're educating.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the that's the number one thing is like whenever like there's an in like a part of this industry, the beauty industry, where it's like there's not enough like information available.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so important, especially now for founders to be the educators.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you gotta educate because people don't realize the benefits of things till they start using them.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so somebody like might pick up root and be like, I'm just gonna check it out, you know, because I saw it on social media, then they start seeing results and they're gonna be like, well, I don't even know why I'm, you know, what's going on.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like it helps people.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really like that you've built your platform like that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, like hats off to you because it's so much education.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone listening, if you haven't uh, you know, checked her platform out, please do because it's amazing and your videos are so educational.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really, really at the heart of understanding, you know, how to buy things as consumers.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, I can't state that enough because like every single time I get emails from people that are asking for recommendations, whatever, the biggest missing link is that the brand they're asking about didn't go and educate.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't go and explain, you know what I mean, like the white space and like why is this relevant, blah, blah, blah.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's it's really cool.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think education is is so, so, so important because people have to understand why they're doing what they're doing and what the benefits are of certain ingredients or having certain things in their routine, or, you know, it really just helps people to make better decisions for themselves.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's uh it's like an example of like and bringing it back to to explaining it in ways that people are really able to understand.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when I'm in clinic and I'm talking to people about why it's important to continue with things long term to kind of like maintain results and maintain health, like I bring it back to things like you wouldn't stop brushing your teeth.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people are very like anti-minoxyl because they're like, oh, I don't want to, you know, have to commit to that forever, or oh, there's a serum and I don't want to use that forever.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if you care about your hair and you want to maintain your hair, then it's something that you have to put in the effort to kind of do.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like if you if you don't want your teeth to fall out and you don't want cavities, you have to brush your teeth every day.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you want to maintain your six-pack, you need to go to the gym every day.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no magic way to kind of just use something for a short period of time and then just kind of be done.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's important to be consistent.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, I completely agree.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's like the I was gonna tell you, it feels like you're kind of you had to go through what you go through when you're making a sunscreen, you know, because sunscreen is so difficult for people to stick to and all that.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like almost like the same mountain that you have to climb.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you knew the education side of things.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I mean, you you all agree as a doctor.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we have been educators for pretty much our whole career.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not like educating like medical students, it's educating like your junior colleagues, like it's just so embedded in what it is that we do.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, like when I naturally moved into like social media, it felt familiar in the sense that I was just taking what it is that I do on a different platform.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know if you will you will agree.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think, especially in dermatology, like people don't really want patient information leaflets anymore.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like they would much rather see a video that explains to them how they're meant to use a treatment or that explains what their condition is.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I really definitely recognize that the way in which people want to receive information, how they want to be educated, has really changed.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that as doctors, we also have to change with the times.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think especially in a space where anybody can come online and you couldn't be an expert in something, there's no one that's like actually overseeing any of the information that's being provided to like the general public online.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need more educators in that space, both in the beauty hair care space, but also online that are actually providing like factual information and cutting through the noise and all the misinformation that is out there because there is just so, so much.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I completely agree.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I will I want to ask you, like, just I've seen so much hate towards dermatologists online, and it's really mind-boggling to me.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like that this is happening, by the way.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, are you insane?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what you know, what's going on?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's like the people that know about this topic are being like scrutinized.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've seen so many people be like, Well, show me your degree, you're prove to me that you're a dermatologist.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, guys, like, what is you know what I mean?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you feel about that?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like all this hate and all the doubting and all that.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, I mean, to be honest, like you're right, like definitely at times, and especially around certain topics, people can get very passionate about whether they agree with what it is that you're saying.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's always like this element of, oh, well, if you're talking about something, it's because you're trying to make money.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if it's about like beef tallow, for example, which was like a huge thing recently, and people are like, oh, you know, it's like the natural solution.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like anytime like a derm says that, you know, there's no evidence for like beef tallow, actually, don't use it on your skin.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: People are like, oh, well, it's because you want us to be buying products from this brand or you just want to like sell your service.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, actually, no, like most, if not every dermatologist that is on social media is doing it with their own time because they enjoy educating and because they are just seeing so much misinformation that they actually want to tackle.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, where this idea kind of comes from, where like some derms may get hate, is because you, it's like I said to you, I think there's a lot of experts online and people are getting lots of conflicting messages about certain topics, and somebody may be following someone that has, you know, kind of said, Oh, you know, you can make homemade sunscreen or sunscreen is toxic.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then that kind of means that they've already made a decision in their mind in terms of what they think or feel about something, and then they come across the dermatologist page that is saying, like, oh, you should wear sunscreen every single day.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, no, like sunscreen's toxic.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you wouldn't tell us that because you've got a hidden agenda for recommending sunscreen, but we absolutely don't.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think it can be challenging, but you know, at the end of the day, I would say I've got quite thick skin and I honestly am not like put off by people challenging me.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as people should, I think if people have concerns about the information that you're putting out there, that's just an opportunity to address it in a respectful way and you know, still, you know, show up online and do your thing and keep pushing information that you know is factual, regardless of what people are saying, because over a period of time, people will begin to understand and recognize that this is correct information and this is what you should be doing.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't convince everybody of that.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: People are entitled to have like their own thoughts and feelings on stuff.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, as long as I'm doing right in terms of the education that I'm putting out there, I just really don't think I'm that affected by the haters.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I don't need it.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I think it's really, really valuable advice to get that perspective from you because I mean, you are an educator.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I really admire people who are going on that are professionals because exactly what you said, no one is getting paid to do this.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's later on, right?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you become like a big influencer and you get deals and whatever, but that doesn't mean that people are just doing this because of what I mean, they're really putting in their time.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there needs to be a certain respect, you know, developed in this space.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I wish more doctors would say something and say, you know what, I get it, you might not agree, but this is education, free education.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're not gonna get it anywhere else.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think people need to just be respectful of that.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I would say like the majority of people are really grateful.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll get DMs all the time, like comments underneath the posts, like we'll meet people that have followed my content online for quite some time, and they are so appreciative of the fact that I'm providing that information, like you said, for free online, and they found it really valuable.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is such like a motivator also to keep going.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I'm doing it for getting that sort of gratitude in return, but I think it just really makes me feel like, you know what, this is honestly like something which is I don't want to use the word giving back, but I think it's like sharing information and knowledge that people are so appreciative of.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things I would say is like in my clinical practice, for sure, I noticed especially around COVID, there was this whole big surge in people starting like these really crazy skincare routines.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we were seeing it like in real life when people were coming in, like with really damaged skin barriers, like worsening acne, like they're gone on these 10-step skincare routines or using retinal exfoliants, everything like on the same day.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like there needs to be something to cut through that noise.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the education becomes really important, like when it actually begins affecting real life and people are taking that advice as viable.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have a responsibility as doctors to actually cut through that noise.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, I couldn't agree with you more.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a hundred percent.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I really, really just urge everybody listening.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think our audience is very um, you know, science focused.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you see people like bullying professionals, please say something.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: I like I like go to war in these context.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I really do because I'm like, how dare you, you know, that kind of thing.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really interesting time on social media.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I really, really commend professionals such as yourself that are actually like you're you're creating something from a place that is not just like you're trying to make a buck.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually trying to apply knowledge that genuinely is just not available in your sub-discipline.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're you see that as a as a professional, as a physician, and and you're trying to do something that's going to bridge a gap for people.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, really applaud you for that.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's amazing to see that.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: I am, you know, really just gonna encourage everybody to go check out Root if you haven't already.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: You guys gotta vote with your dollars.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say, like, vote for the brands that are backed by science.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, just go for the science, and I feel like you're gonna get the results that you want.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I really encourage everybody scroll down in the show notes, check out the brand, leave us your feedback, and I will be back next time.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.