Latest / Rooted & Real With Keenan / Can You Heal From Chronic Pain? Elizabeth Kipp on Trauma, Addiction, Stress, and Hope
Transcript
- Keenan: So today we're gonna be talking about chronic stress, addiction, intergenerational trauma, spiritual healing, and hope. And the hope that the real change is possible, even when healing feels slow, messy, or impossible. Thank you so much, for being on today. I really appreciate you taking even all the technical craziness. Thanks for being on Rooted in Real with Keenan, and I'm so excited to hear your story and how you get into it. Elizabeth Kipp: Well, thank you so much, Keenan, for for being for for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here. And ⁓ I can just jump right in if that's okay. Keenan: Yeah, yeah, like every good story. Let's start from the beginning. Elizabeth Kipp: Yeah. So I I'm in recovery from so I'm a stress management and historical trauma specialist and I a certified addiction recovery coach. And how did I get that way? ⁓ ⁓ so I am in recovery from 40 years of chronic pain. And chronic pain, just so everybody knows, is ⁓ any that's fell fifteen days out of thirty for three months or more is chronic. Keenan: Hmm. Elizabeth Kipp: Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, it doesn't matter. The brain it all sends the same signal to the brain, it hurts. So ⁓ so a bone that doesn't heal, you know, and you feel the pain for th fifteen days out of thirty for three months or more is the same as a grief experience. You know, we we take longer to get over grief, that's generally chronic stress, chronic pain. Keenan: Hmm. Hmm. For sure. Yeah. ⁓ huh. Elizabeth Kipp: So I so my my background really is that I I was born mother went into a huge depression immediately immediately after she delivered me so we were separated and she kind of went away for nine months to deal with that. It turns out ⁓ this ⁓ postpartum depression runs in the family. I didn't I had such a tiny mild case of it it was hardly worth noticing, but ⁓ I had it was enough that I was like, ⁓ I know what that is now. Right, but she had a huge one. So that separation ⁓ for the child from the mother in the beginning is is a ⁓ is a chronic pain experience. Right. ⁓ also there was a lot of dysfunction in the family. On my mother's part, she she was an undiagnosed, untreated bipolar disorder, she really pretty much treated her her instability, that inner instability that she felt with alcohol, and that Keenan: For sure. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: ⁓ wasn't optimal. So that became quite dysfunctional. And and how it turned out for me was that I kept trying to help. I trying ⁓ what I do to like make her feel better. And there wasn't anything I could do. And so that was ⁓ that was then ⁓ and they had this is ⁓ a little bit Keenan: Sure, for sure. Elizabeth Kipp: They had me, ⁓ my parents had me me drink milk three times a day, ⁓ cow's milk. And I don't I'm actually born, I don't have the the base protein the the the enzyme that breaks down the base protein casein in my body. So I was I I felt nauseous all the time and nobody knew what that was. So ⁓ so had air valve for years ⁓ until finally found figured out what that was many, many years later. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Elizabeth Kipp: So a lot of physical, mental, emotional, dis discomf discomfort. And when I was 14, I had an accident. I I fell ⁓ I fell off a horse and laying on my back in on a rock and broke fifth lumbar. And I got up fr I got up from that accident and walked. And so because I was able to it hurt, like I definitely hurt, but ⁓ I I realize extent of the Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Elizabeth Kipp: damage because I was kind of used to being in chronic pain and I for me like you know I ⁓ even in my yoga practice today or any kind of physical practice just because I have this backstory of a lot of holding a lot dealing with life with a lot of chronic pain my challenge in a physical practice is I'm over the line into injury before I even know it. Keenan: Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Like I just don't, you know, so my practice is like, where's the line? You know, where's the line today? Right. So so that's gives you an idea of the level of kind of the nervous system, what the happening in the nervous system at that point. And I just walked away from the accident hurting, but we never even got an x ray. I just kind of just hurt hurt for a couple of weeks and then, you know, I went on with life as normal. So I mean, I went to school the next day and everything. So it was Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. ⁓ Elizabeth Kipp: It was an event, but it was a non-event in my family and like you know, so also I had the ⁓ I had that a lot of people relate to this no pain, no gain thing, very athletic family. So so it's like push through whatever and and so I already had that, you know, ⁓ p underpinning. So you can see how that's a s all these things are kind of a setup for chronic stress, chronic pain Keenan: Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: And ⁓ anyway, so I it was fourteen ⁓ twenty eight I I'm I I finally got a diagnosed seven years later. And the chiropractors kept me going because I I I kept I kept ⁓ really ignoring the pain. And then ⁓ seven years later, I actually couldn't walk upstairs at one night after work. And I was like, I see I see, you know, maybe I need to see a doctor about this. ⁓ right. So so right, own Keenan: Why did it take so long? Why did it take so long? Okay. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: My own pushing through thing w just got in the way of all of it. And and and then then the doctor's like, Well, you have an old injury and I'm like, ⁓ I know what that is, right? So And so for the next seven years chiropractors were able to keep me you know, pretty well pretty ⁓ c not out of pain, but ⁓ managing, manageable. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: And then finally my chiropractor said to me one day, seven years after that, he says, some of our patients need surgery, and you're one of them. Right. So, which is very unusual, very unusual to hear that from a chiropractor. So I I so they I had three surgeries ⁓ and then a fourth, a corrective surgery, to see if we could stabilize that spine. Keenan: ⁓ no, yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Because that what had happened is the bone had broken and the front part had it split ha front to back and the front part had slipped forward and pulled the leg nerves with it. So now we've got the bone at this time when I'm talking to you. The front part of that bone is 80% slipped forward off the you know spine. And they took the back part off. So that's what's holding me together, right? So I now have a like a metal I'm kind of the the dionic woman. Keenan: Gotcha. ⁓ my goodness. Elizabeth Kipp: I've got like a metal cage holding that all together. And you know what? I'm a yoga teacher and have a mad yoga practice. So that's pretty amazing, right? ⁓ so it's quite remarkable because they were pretty sure that that if they didn't do the surgery, I would I would that thing would it would come right off the deal and I wouldn't be able to walk at all. Right. So it was important. Well of course Keenan: Yeah, for sure. ⁓ my gosh. Right, for sure. So even with this back thing going on, like how was the recovery the surgery? What was that like? Elizabeth Kipp: Yeah, well well that was the problem because the it was so painful. And they started me on opiate opiates and ⁓ and ⁓ any anxiety medication, which is a class of benzodiazepines, is what they are. And and was and and and every time like I do one surgery and it didn't take, and I did another surgery and it didn't and and ⁓ anyway, and I get four surgeries, and each time the pain got worse. ⁓ Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: And ⁓ and the doctor said ⁓ finally after a while the doctor said you have this thing called chronic pain, you can't heal from it. I was devastated. I I was I was like, you know, what I've been through all this and now I have this. I mean this is like what is so but also I had a science background and I I knew ⁓ Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: I knew couple of things. One, they said you can't heal from chronic pain. And that's not actually honest because that's science is probabilities, not facts. He should have said i it's here are the odds. It's it's probably that he didn't. So I knew that there was an error there. The other thing was like really a science operates in a in a in a in a in a paradigm paradigm shift like we didn't used to know what plate tectonics were for instance we'd had no idea right now we know so that's science is that's what happens in science things you know our our our are like's perception of what's happening changes and I knew that because I have a science background so the other thing was is that science ⁓ can only talk about what it can observe, measure, and describe. You can't comment on anything outside of that. But we live and heal in the all that is, not just in the part that science can observe, measure, and describe. So I knew ⁓ only have a certain view and it and and and they're working in a model and the model has assumptions and their assumptions are questionable. So I knew that they were telling me more about The limitation of their model, then they were telling that the body's ability to heal. And I knew I was going to have to go out. I'm not throwing out the science part. I'm saying, in addition to, I needed to go outside of the of that paradigm in order to find healing. And I finally did. I actually found a doctor after many years, obviously, ⁓ who understood the nature of chronic pain was trained in Eastern and Western medicine. Keenan: Yeah. Okay. Elizabeth Kipp: So he had this, he was a holistic healer and he he didn't want to see my it was so cool. He didn't want to see my x-rays or my records. So I don't need to see your x rays or your records. I want to know who you are. And no one had ever asked me that. Like, you know, like, you know, what makes you tick? And I like nobody had ever asked that question. So Keenan: Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. mean, a lot of science is theory is made up of theories anyway. And so, like, I love that you, like, kind of look for answers in a holistic way. ⁓ How did you find this guy? Elizabeth Kipp: Yeah. was kind of so my son who's also in recovery ⁓ had a had a going at the time called the Daily Love and and a lot his ⁓ clients were in recovery. And and I ⁓ got to a point tried to get off those medications and I couldn't. Keenan: Mm. Elizabeth Kipp: And I got to a point where that where it was like, I I can't go any further. And my prescribing doctor didn't know how to get me off them. That wasn't part of his training. So for everybody listening, before you go on a medication again, ask what the exit plan is first. Keenan: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely, 100%. Elizabeth Kipp: So you have an idea of like the capacity of this doctor that's giving you this prescribing this medication, like, you know, can you get me off it or what's the plan? Right. So that was one thing I learned from that, right? But he ⁓ he knew someone who worked with this doctor at the Betty Ford Center and in the pain management program. And and I and I was so grateful. So I I went in there and he helped me get off all the medication. Keenan: Right, yeah, sure. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: And and help me. And I walked in that program with four years of chronic pain. And I walked out 52 days later with no physical pain. Now I still had the stress habit that control that that that that fed it. And that was the work of my recovery was to kind of unwind that stress habit. But I ⁓ just so that like we get a little more clarity on what am I talking about, so that the listeners can kind of like relate it to their lives. What what is we told I would told you what chronic pain is, but the question is, how is it different from acute pain? Right? So we have a stress response in the body that turns on when we perceive a threat. and and all kinds of physiology and and psychology come to bear and we deal with the threat, and then the stress response goes back into the on position, off off position. Keenan: Yes. Elizabeth Kipp: In chronic pain, the cr the stress response gets stuck in the on position. And so now we're constantly seeing a threat. We may not be under threat, but the but but we're the the way that the brain is is perceiving the world is like I'm under threat. So it gets stuck. And that we are not made for that. We're made for this on-off thing. We're we're not our physiology is not made for this chronic stress. It creates all kinds of Keenan: Mmm, okay. Elizabeth Kipp: like you know caustic toxic ⁓ chemistry and mental stuff in the body and the mind. So anybody here that's listening to this that knows somebody in chronic pain or maybe has experienced chronic pain, this is what you'll notice and everybody will nod their head when I say this. Like I can't remember stuff because the memory ⁓ part of the brain is affected. and and things are very negative like you're bad, the world's bad ⁓ and I'm bad. Or or maybe it's one of those. But it's but mostly a lot of times we'll turn that inside. So we have a pronounced negative mind, and it tends to turn in within. So, you know, that's another thing. So then the emotional center, so that's the emotional center getting affected. And then the the primitive part of the brain, the fear center, the fight flight shutdown. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Elizabeth Kipp: That gets activated. And you see in brain scans of chronic pain sufferers, you'll see their amygdala. The amygdala is the little part of us, the little reptilian part of us that's that's related to fear and fight and shutdown. You'll see in chronic pain sufferers in the brain scans that it's bigger. Now ⁓ in recovery and I've worked on that, so mine's smaller, and I healed the memory. ⁓ so I I healed the memory issue and I healed the negative wine stuff. So you can heal from this stuff. So A A you can heal from chronic pain, B, you can heal from the effects of it, right? But the way you do it is not with opiates and me and and benzos. The way you do it is with ⁓ modalities that heal the changes that happen in the brain because of chronic. Keenan: what does ⁓ therapy look like? You mentioned modalities. ⁓ what does therapy look like for someone in chronic pain, they're talking to a therapist or seeking you out. Like what does treatment look like for someone with chronic pain? Elizabeth Kipp: So so so one of the so there were a few things that that ⁓ that Dr. Prescott taught me. His name is Dr. Peter Preskop. He wrote a book called Conquer Chronic Pain and Innovative Mind Body Approach. I highly recommend it. I recommend my book too, which is like a great ⁓ accompany to that, which is ⁓ the way through chronic pain tools to reclaim your healing power. Peter was very about setting the setting the landscape of chronic pain and so the the first thing he did with us in his classroom was he asked this question what are you doing to contribute to your pain and i was affronted by that question was like dude it's doing it to me what are you talking about i was just like ⁓ i didn't say that out loud but i said it in my Keenan: Right. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: And what was interesting about that question was here all this time I had been complete victim mode, thinking that pain was doing it to me, not having any idea that I had power in that equation. when Peter asked that question, I was like affronted. I had this reaction, rare, right? And ⁓ Halfway through the ram, was like, wait a minute. Just by that question, he just said I might have some power in this, and I never knew that. So I was like, ⁓ I actually have some power here. This is very cool. And you know, you know what, Keenan? He had my attention after that. He had my attention when Peter was in the room. He had my attention. He did not waste words, he got right to the point. Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Absolutely, for sure. haha Elizabeth Kipp: Second question he asked, which I loved it also hit me, you know. Second question was don't j he didn't say it. It wasn't a question, he just made a statement. Don't judge the moment. And I'm like, I'm not judging anything. I'm sitting here minding my own business in your classroom. Again, attitude, right? I'm just like super defensive, right? Which is part of chronic pain. That's kind of part of the deal, right? So Keenan: Hmm. Wait. Yeah, for sure. Elizabeth Kipp: So not not I'm I'm not bowing to him that yet. I'm just like rare. I'm just trying to hold my space right in this room. And I'm just, you know, but he had the room, and I'm listening and I'm realizing he's not talking about me. He's talking about my pain. He's talking about judging my pain. Don't judge the moment. Don't judge, you know, like pain is so this is what I learned. Pain is information. Keenan: Hmm. Mmm, I need information. For sure. Elizabeth Kipp: Right? It's not good or bad. It's just information. That's a completely different thing when we're kids and we're in the playground and we're bump up against each other, right? And and the parents come running. What do they do? The first thing they do is they try and stop us from crying and from hurting. So what's the subtext? Yeah, so you recognize that. What is what is the subtext of that? Pain. We're pain pain is bad. Keenan: Yes. ⁓ for sure. You're trying to stop the crying and stop the pain, Elizabeth Kipp: We're at war with pain. So when you gr when you have that, when that's part of the equ if that's part of the landscape, now we've got a problem because when we hurt, now we're calling it bad, we have a judgment, right? And now we've just amplified the pain because we're having an argument with it. See, the problem with with us and pain, and I'm still working on it, so it's not just, you know, I'm not like, you know, miss whatever. I like I'm still working on it. The problem with us in pain is that don't accept it in the moment. We keep it when we when it shows up, we want it to go away. We want to change the moment. Part of the ⁓ the magic of of from chronic pain is not having an argument with it in the first place. Now that's easier said than done, but I Keenan: Right. Elizabeth Kipp: I encourage everybody to the next time they stub their toe or whatever, breathe, allow and see how fast that pain moves. Keenan: Mmm. For sure. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: relative to if you win in you know like that. So so that's just kind of like and then I so I so I went into like I said, I went into his program. I came out with no physical pain. I still had the stress habit. So I was still reacting to my environment like I was still hypervigilant and I was still and I and I just did that then the modalities that I use for that. So he one was he was just he was getting real with us and making us like look at our stuff, our our behaviors. Keenan: Mmm. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Other thing he did was he taught us how to breathe, how to leverage the breath, because the mind follows the breath. And the nervous system, nervous system rules us. And of that is automatic. Autonomic, the autonomic nervous system. It's the all the stuff that ha and the breath is is part of that. But the one part of the autonomic nervous system that we can access is the breath. Keenan: Yes. Yes. Elizabeth Kipp: And so now we can begin to mediate the ⁓ the way we respond to the world by by leveraging the power of the breath and beginning to un that's what I use to unwind a stress hack. Keenan: Mmm. Mm. Elizabeth Kipp: Long deep breathing. I I hadn't learned that. You know, this is the kind of stuff we should be teaching pre-kindergartners, you know. We should be teaching our kids, you know, right? So the so the breath work is is huge. And there's and I've and I've got a like a major in breath work at this point with all the training I've had as as a yoga teacher. I've had a ton of training. So you know, that's a big thing that I teach that. ⁓ and I did it, I feel like I teach it pretty well because I've done it. Keenan: Yeah. Absolutely, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Right. And I can I can I can kind of I can kind of keep things simple. And then meditation is another piece, but it comes after the breath. We have to learn how to breathe first. And then this meditation, which really is the of the most powerful modalities of all to to heal chronic pain because it helps quiet the mind. I didn't say it quiets, it makes the mind stop thinking. Keenan: Yes. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: I said it it quiets it quiets the mind. In in ⁓ in the Yoga Sutras, ⁓ one of the first few sutras, I think it's maybe the second or third, says ⁓ is the is is the calming of fluctuations of the mind. And breath work is part of ⁓ yoga pra and meditation are part of yoga practice. It's not the only place where yoga where breath and meditation are used, but This is just in the in the sutras, which are like 5,000 years old plus. Yoga is the calming of the fluctuations of the mind. What does that mean? That means it doesn't mean yoga is going to take the fluctuations of the mind away. The good, bad, the ⁓ my god, the reactivity, but it means it's going to calm them. So, for instance, Keenan and I have a little technical difficulty getting started this morning, but Keenan: culture. ⁓ Yes. Elizabeth Kipp: But it it wasn't personal to me or him. It was just do we have a little technical thing and it was fine. Five or ten years ago, I would have been out of my mind with like sweating and all things, you know. But that's an example of the practice helps to and it's a Monday morning too. We're taping on a Monday morning. So it's like the week is starting like this, you know, right? So but that didn't that didn't Keenan: Yeah, yeah That's for sure. Yeah Right. Elizabeth Kipp: That didn't happen. Well, you know what he did? He just worked the problem and I worked the problem and boom. That's calming the f there weren't fluctuations, that the fluctuations were very mild. Right. But but they could be, you know, crazy wild. And they're not so that's a great example of of ⁓ calming the fluctuations to the mind. Meditation's really good at that. And and and ⁓ Keenan: And here we are. Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Elizabeth Kipp: Chronic pain just creates a lot of, like I said, chaos in the brain. It just like I can't remember my keys. I I you know, I I I used to be able to w w right before I went ⁓ into Peter's program, I could watch a movie, it just gives you an idea how bad my memory was. I could watch a movie before I went to bed and get up in the morning and watch it again and not remember any, have not remembered any of it. Keenan: Hmm. ⁓ my goodness. Elizabeth Kipp: We are. So I just but but but it can but we can heal from that. Just amazing. Keenan: Yeah, for sure. So, I wanna ask ⁓ this question. So you mentioned breathing, meditation, yoga, and it's a combination of all those together. Elizabeth Kipp: Well, yoga's breathing and meditation and movement, right? You want movement and nutrition. And ⁓ my god. Yeah, and hydration. Like there's it's got a full package. And then the other part is underneath all of this unresolved trauma. So, ⁓ know, that was a part of my ⁓ it and it's not so much anymore, but it's still an aspect of my ⁓ program. Keenan: Gotcha. Okay. Okay, what we eat, for sure. Yes. Yeah. Mmm, absolutely. Elizabeth Kipp: ⁓ I feel like I've I I've resolved a lot of the traumas that I hadn't before. But when you were raised in a fan, it was like push through, don't talk about it, just keep moving and and and no complaining. And you know, like you're gonna have you're gonna have some unresolved stuff there. So so so that's so that so understanding getting a good trauma therapist is is helpful and you can use somatic work. Keenan: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Elizabeth Kipp: Body work to help with that massage and acupuncture were really helpful for me. So I kind of have a full package. And of course I do sound healing and I do ancestral clearing. That's another piece of it, the ancestral piece. And part of part of yoga practice, but not you know, chanting have to be part of a yoga practice, it's just part of it's part of healing, right? Keenan: Okay. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Lots of people do this chanting in in all kinds of different practices. And ⁓ you know, we do hymns in Christianity and we do you know, like hallelujah. That's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that could be a meditation. That's a chant. ⁓ it doesn't have to be this yoga thing. It it can be all way across the board this is this is known. You know, think about Gregorian chants. That's powerful stuff. And you feel it when you when you hear it and it's Keenan: for Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Palming to the nervous system. What is that? That's sound healing. Keenan: Yeah, so there seems like there's space for both, you know, meditation and breathing in both, like having a faith to be able to both like take care of yourself ⁓ even like if you have all this ⁓ and this trauma, like giving it to the Lord, but also looking at like how you are taking care of yourself through all that, through the breathing, through meditation, through yoga, through movement, through what we eat. ⁓ Like there's all these aspects. It's not even like it doesn't tell me if I'm wrong. Like like if I'm really good at breathing and meditation, then everything else doesn't really matter. But it's like a combination of trying all of those things together is going to be helpful. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: I I I I wouldn't say that. I mean I would I I w I hear what you're saying, I would I would shift that slightly and say ⁓ I've always held by a higher power. Like no matter what was going down in my life, and it got dark a few times, you know, I always felt held. So so my kind of viewpoint on that is that this is a co creative process. So I'm not doing anything. This is the thing that that that that that's coming through me. Keenan: Absolutely. Elizabeth Kipp: And I have free will to make I can choose. No, I'm not gonna drink water today. I'm not gonna take care of myself today. Well that's that's not God. That's that's my ego. that piece, but but ⁓ there's that. And then the other thing I want to say is you'll have heard some of this, but you won't have heard all of it. Keenan: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: In the beginning was the word, and the word was God. But where does the word live? It lives on the breath. So God is in the breath. So anybody that thinks that they're not connected to God, that's the mind. Because God is in the breath, is in every cell and every atom. Like, you know, it's like ⁓ just ⁓ Th all that intelligence is in there. And the the thing that I learned the most, I think, about this experience with the doctors say, You can't heal and I'm like, watch me. And you know was was ⁓ was that ⁓ was that The healing power is in me. It's not in the doctor. And I was raised to look to the doctor for the answer. And I was raised, you know, when I from my science, I was taught to be a trained to be a science researcher. So when I got in front of an expert doctor, like they're the expert, not me. And I I kind of forgot my footing there because I'm kind of looking to them. They can help us. set the optimal conditions for healing, but they're not the healer. The healer is in us. And that's a fundamental, powerful understanding. So that speaks to your point just in like a little different way. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Our bodies can do so much that we don't even know or even understand. And even like our brains, too, people are still learning about what that's capable of doing. really fascinating, the things that they're coming out with. Something you mentioned I wanted to ask about is you said you'd ⁓ ancestral. ⁓ OK, that like? ⁓ Elizabeth Kipp: Ancestral clearing, yeah. Keenan: So I mentioned like generational trauma. Like OK. So what do mean by by ancestral clearing. Elizabeth Kipp: Yeah. So it says sister and the the ⁓ We could do a whole podcast just on this and then some. ⁓ this is a big part of my practice, is this work. So spiritual teachers have been telling us for thousands of years that we come into this world with the gifts and the burdens of our ancestors. And science has actually been able to catch up to that. So we we ⁓ were we do come into this world with ⁓ what might consider unfinished business. Keenan: For sure, yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: Which would be and it's not we don't come in with the trauma. We come in with the effects of the trauma that hasn't. So that would be like a worry habit. ⁓ what we get a lot, ⁓ what I experience so I experience that fair amount. But ⁓ what I get the most of is a vibe. Like I can't I can't I I I I I can't get get pardon me. I can't be on ⁓ get just Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: my paycheck, that's all I can, I can't get, I can't save more than I barely make my my bills with the paycheck I get and I can't get beyond that kind of thing. or or or it it it it shows up monetarily, but it also shows up, you know, when when when there's not enough, right? Scarcity meant it when there's not enough, that can pretty easily turn into I'm not enough. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm, absolutely. Elizabeth Kipp: And so now we've got a scarcity issue and a self esteem issue and you know, now we're off to the races with all kinds of insecurities and and then when we forget our connection to our alignment to higher power, then we're really in trouble, right? 'Cause the mind is gonna now have a field day with us. Right. Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want one more thing as we wrap it up. I want to honor your time. Any good like podcasts, resources, like things that you recommend, things that you mentioned in your book, like what are good resources people can find if they want to Elizabeth Kipp: Well, I if you wanna if you want to ⁓ you know, really kind of dive into ancestral work, you could look up ⁓ John Newton of healthbeyondbelief.com, who's my ancestral clearing teacher. And and I do you can look me up. ⁓ I ancestral clearing. I've been doing it since twenty fourteen almost every day somewhere on the planet. So I'm I've I I've kind of loaned the skill. and ⁓ Howard Wills Howard Wills W ⁓ L L S ⁓ has a version of that. He's he actually pioneered the work. Daniel Four, ⁓ but that's ⁓ his last name is F-O-O-R, he does ⁓ ancestral healing, but in a very different way. But it's a resource. And then if you want ⁓ like addiction recovery resources. Keenan: Yeah. Elizabeth Kipp: you could go to you could just kind of look that up online but I would encourage you to go to recovery two point ⁓ which is I'm affiliated with recovery two with the zero dot com is ⁓ we look at we're not just looking at ⁓ it's it's 12 steps ⁓ it's it's 12 steps and yoga which is the physical practice and the and also yoga is not just a physical practice it's a it's the metaphysical practice it's a It's a philosophy really. And it's not a spirit it's a spiritual practice, but not a religion. So yoga, ⁓ meditation, ⁓ sorry, yoga step work, ⁓ meetings ⁓ nutrition. And and it doesn't matter what the addiction is, because there's all kinds of addictions. So we all comers to that platform, which I love about that. So anyway. And you can find me on my website, which is Elizabeth Kip with dash in the middle between Elizabeth and Kip, Elizabeth Kip dot com. Keenan: for sure. Elizabeth Kipp: Elizabeth Dashkip dot com is my website. Keenan: Okay, I'll put that in the description so everyone can find you. ⁓ Thank you for being patient with me and thank you for being here. I learned a bunch and just thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here. Elizabeth Kipp: Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Keena, for the opportunity. I appreciate it. I love your platform. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Keenan: You too.