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Yoga Training for Birth · Fit As A Fiddle

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I have no stake in how they birth, except I want them to feel supported.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if the only coping skill they have in their back pocket is an epidural, which is a great tool.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's their only tool, what if they're waiting in the waiting room?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I know our New York City hospitals can be pretty crowded.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: What if the anesthesiologist is not available?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: They have to have at least a bag of fluid before they can have the epidural.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to be prepared should things not go as you expected.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to have the tools if your epidural is not coming when you want.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or what if you have a really fast birth and you don't get it?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, everyone.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sneha Gazi, a physical therapist, course creator, and mom.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I own Sneha Physical Therapy, a private practice in New York City, and created the course Master Your Pelvic Floor to help you transform the way you think about and move your body.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Use discount code FIT20 for a special 20% discount exclusively for my listeners at the link in all show notes.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode brings phenomenal guests in the health and wellness space who share inspiring tips and tangible advice.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: All things health and wellness starts right here.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode on Fit as a Fiddle.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lovely returning guest here.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Deb Flaschenberg, and she is the founder and the director of the Prenatal Yoga Center in New York City.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty big deal, guys.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: We got a little famous person here.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody goes to Prenatal Yoga Center.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: It is amazing.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've taken a class there.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember if I was pregnant or not when I did it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was pregnant.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was pregnant and experienced it for myself as well.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it provides just really meaningful, evidence-based, comfortable, not flashy, really good yoga to pregnant people and beyond as well.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, Deb, thank you for returning to our show today to talk to our listeners.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was mentioning it's fun to be on the other side as a podcast host.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't often do the talking, so thank you so much.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so Deb, go into a little bit more of a deeper introduction on yourself.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: You have a pretty vast background of knowledge that has brought you to where you are today and doing all the education that you do, both on and off air.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for the listeners to get to know you a little and what brought you to the space.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I started as a musical theater performer.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of going way back, and then I stumbled into yoga and honestly never looked back.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a bit of a geek.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love learning.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've have so many different certifications because I feel like once I learned something, I want to keep going deeper.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I started off as a yoga teacher, which is what I've been doing for the last, oh my gosh, 25 years.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's been a minute.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And because I wanted to get into the prenatal world, I thought it was important that I really educate myself in that.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously became a prenatal teacher, but then I became a labor sport doula, which I did for a little over 10 years and attended, I think my final number was like 108 births.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Then I thought, okay, I need to know more.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I became a Lama's childbirth educator, and then a pelvic floor yoga teacher, and then a spinning babies parent educator.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then I did the body ready birth method.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I just, oh, and then there was like another with a wonderful PT Sarah, Dr.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah Duval.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot the official name of that, but I love learning.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like the more I can learn, the more I can give to my students.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just, I guess I collect certifications because I want to just continue to learn.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really important that we do because this is an ever-evolving field because pregnant people are often not researched for all the reasons that they're not.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we can get more research out there, get more evidence out there, get better ways to do things, it's really important for anybody who works um with this population to stay on top of their learning and geek out.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're not doing that in your second old ways, then we're not really helping our patients and clients in the best ways that we can.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I love that way for you.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, part of the learning was from my own births.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like I found that my first birth really challenged what I understood how to use prenatal yoga and how the body works during birth, even though I understood it from an intellectual place as a doula who supported birth and as Lamaz teacher.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I noticed and learned, I know we're going to talk about some of this, some of the things that I did during my pregnancy and pre-pregnancy were not really helping my body to birth well.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And after having a very long birth, it was 42 hours, five hours of pushing, a lot of physical therapy postpartum to heal my pelvic floor and abs.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I had to step back and think, all right, what was going on that created such dysfunction?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I really started to understand the pelvic floor in a different way.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I understood the importance of balance and how the body needs to receive and open and not just be tight.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we talked about this a little before we pressed our cord, just the misunderstanding of the pelvic floor.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: When I was pregnant, and this was 14 years ago, I was told, all right, just you know, tighten up, tighten up, tighten up, kegel, keegel.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And these I was like, I don't know if that's true.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I did.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: It caused some dysfunction.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been kind of a passion of mine to try to change that because it was a really hard postpartum because it was such a long birth experience and my body really didn't handle it well, that it's just been a passion to try not to have that for others.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that really was a massive change in how I approach yoga.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, we don't want to just rest on what we knew.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we want to keep going with our understanding.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad you brought that up.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's great because I think when you come from learning for personal from personal experience and for a future personal experience, I think that the learning just becomes that much deeper because you can put it to practice immediately and almost test yourself like a guinea pig and just see what's working, what's not working.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you can actually feel like I think some of my best exercises that I've come up with were when I were was at the gym and I was like, I'm just gonna do, I'm gonna put this thing over here and put that thing over there and then move like that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh my God, that's a good move.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: We should do that in the clinic, like totally, you know.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the experience of it, I'm not saying that everybody needs to get pregnant in order to serve pregnant people.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's not that's not what we're saying.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that um when you are kind of testing things on your own body, I think it helps inform your practice.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: For it doesn't matter if you're a yoga teacher who's listening who doesn't serve prenatal clients, at least having that practice for yourself and really it's just practicing what you preach.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing the work, and I think that helps you serve other people better.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then that in turn informs your work even more because then you have your body and other people's body as examples of what does you know what's what's the way we should be moving.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's honestly something I've talked to my teacher trainees about is like you never have to give birth.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've had two babies, very, very different births.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: But where I feel like I learned so much is honestly looking at my students, like watching how do they move?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are they moving with ease?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is this causing more strain?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is this alleviating some discomfort and looking and talking to them?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like they're going to give me, it's been thousands of students, and their their experiences are actually going to give me more information than just my two births.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just the the first one just really blew my mind of like, oh, I gotta change things.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that actually dives nicely into just speaking about the Premierville Yoga Center in general and why it's unique, um, and why it's it you've really set yourself apart from a lot of the other uh yoga studios out there.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So just curious about what's the approach and where does that come from?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I tell my teacher trainees isn't like for the good or bad, you are living my lived experience.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it comes from all of my different experiences, all my different trainings.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think about 15 years ago, we really solidified what we call our three-prong theory that we use it's it's yoga asana, education, and community.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the community part came from years ago.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I took at this place called Ohm Yoga, it's one of my certifications.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what I loved is that they really created a community.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: After class, people hung out, and I really wanted PYC not just to be a place where you come in for your yoga class and check out.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted it to be a place where people connect.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I also was seeing that in New York City, especially, we have a lot of folks that show up that that's not where they grew up.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: You might, you know, every now and then you have like your native New Yorker, but a lot of folks who are coming without family, and pregnancy can be incredibly overwhelming.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a huge transformation, and people need to find their own community and really want that support.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to create that community.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So one way that we do that is actually how we start every class.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: We have what we call circle time.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So people say their name, how far along they are, their aches, pains, issues, requests.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So people are introducing themselves.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as you come class after class, you get to know each other.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then when people are sharing what they need to work on, the teacher can hear that and create what they need to create, what class will be.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not going in with like Bickram, which is a script.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're hearing what the students need and we're actually reflecting it right back.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where the yoga asana comes in.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we're using the yoga poses to help with discomforts, but we're also using the poses to learn about pain management, which is where the childbirth education comes in, learning about resilience and how to work through discomfort.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're also using the poses themselves to look at how can we create balance in the body.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one thing I think a typical yoga practice does is it only, it not only, but it often focuses a lot on external rotation and stretching those hamstrings.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so we look at the pregnant body thinking during birth, the pelvis needs to be able to open through the inlet, the mid-pelvis, and the outlet.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if your typical practice is so focused on external rotation, it's going to be harder for the pelvis to find internal rotations.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: It hasn't been open to that.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to really work the hips instead of hip openers, which are again usually external rotation, we're looking at all the ranges of motion.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're getting the pelvis ready for all the movements and mobility it needs.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're also not just stretching the hamstrings, we're actually strengthening the posterior chain because we know a lot of glutes, I mean, you know better than I do it's a PT.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people have sleepy glutes.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if those glutes are sleepy, the poor pelvic claw is taking on extra, it's getting tight, we don't have that support.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually use the yoga practice to look at how we can not just create shapes, but how can we use the actual poses to better prepare the body for birth and find better internal balance so the baby might have less obstruction coming through the pelvis.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we really, I think one of the things that makes PYC so different, our method, is that the yoga asana is a tool and the bigger picture is a functional birth.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think that really, and the education, we put so much childbirth education throughout class.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love when students are like, I'm in the SI team, you know, the sacroiliac team.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, great, you stay in that team, I'm gonna give you your modifications.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or they'll be like, okay, I want to learn the poses to open my mid and outlet.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yes, let's let's do that.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then when students come back after and say, I birthed on my side or I birthed on all fours.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I had, I asked my care provider for that because they learned that there are other options.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: It gets me so excited when I hear that what they learned in class was not just about being on the mat, but empower them to make choices for their birth.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, Deb, everything that you're saying, I'm like, why isn't that a standard of practice?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you are serving people who are giving birth and the yoga is supposed to support that, the asanas, the breathing, the mindset, everything that comes with yoga, it really should be for the functional birth and for the, you know, the strength and mobility of the pregnancy and after it for postpartum.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you're putting that therapeutic lens, which is why I think you guys are amazing in what you do and you know, so aligned with all the PT things that we talk about in um public floor PT and you know, just orthopedics in general.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even just the other day, I was um talking to one of my uh student mentees, and she was uh, she was like uh PTs, and like she was explaining in a PowerPoint presentation what PTs do, and she was like, We teach exercises and we teach yoga.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, No, we don't say that because it's not within you can't have a physical therapist who's not licensed with any kind of a yoga certification to say, I teach yoga poses, because you're not licensed to do that.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone has their own professions, but do we all speak the almost exactly the same language in so many ways?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but it it matters how you present that information because literally a malasana is a deep squat pelic floor stretch.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't say malasana in your medical documentation if you don't have a yoga certification.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And period, you just shouldn't.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you can describe the movement, and it's the same thing.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when I when I speak to people who do like Pilates or whatever, you know, a Pilates bridge or a Pilates this or Pilates hundreds, I'm like, these are movements.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: They have existed since the beginning of time, and people have codified them in different ways, but at the end of the day, they are supposed to be customized to create proper function.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And for this particular population, who are pregnant individuals, we're creating what you call is the functional birth, you know?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there, I know we can go into like a whole thing about functional birth, but it kind of not kind of transitions nicely into this concept of training for birth, right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because like we're training for a marathon.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I talk to my patients about this all the time.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you don't like you shouldn't necessarily.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's initially it was like standard practice to come to Pick PT postpartum when something went wrong.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like, oh, just prepare for the birth at late pregnancy.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then now hopefully things are shifting a little.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like preconception, early pregnancy.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I get patients all the time coming in early, and I'm like, great.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because you wouldn't go to run a marathon and start saying two weeks before, hey, I should probably work on this.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you shouldn't come at 37 weeks to be like, what should I be doing right now?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: You should, this should, this is a practice.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Movement takes time.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for you to speak about what is what in your world, what is training for birth mean to you?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that question.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so I think it's so multilayered.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a mindset around it.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And funny, we just in yesterday's class, I had two students.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we do classes online and in person, and we we put it as a hybrid model.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I had two of my online people had been with me for previous births, and they were both at 39 weeks.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think one was, I think, due Saturday, the other might be due Monday or something like so, really soon.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they both spoke about what helped them in their last birth was focus, learning how to focus, how to kind of cut off everything that was happening around them and turn the focus in.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what they wanted to work on in yesterday's class because they knew their birth was quite intimate.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we focused on for class about how to not be distracted.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Our studio's on 72nd Street, so there's a lot of noise.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, in a hospital, you're gonna have a lot of noise.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what we can practice is how to take, how to remove yourself from that noise.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when we think about the training, it's so mental and physical.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we can work on things like how do you focus inward?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're never gonna have the perfect, quote unquote, perfect birth, because you know, hospitals, especially if you're having a hospital birth, they're they're noisy.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So yesterday's about, okay, how do we focus inward?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's training the mind.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Then we also have to train the mind of how do you react to discomfort.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So no matter how someone chooses to birth, whether it's unmedicated, medicated, cesarean, there's going to be mental discomfort.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's when they're in the OR by themselves and their partner's getting their little oompa loompa suit on and waiting to come in, that can be mentally stressful.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do they quiet their nervous system with their breath?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're going for an unmedicated birth and they have to start to raise their threshold of how they tolerate discomfort.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, as much as it's physical training, it's mental training.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what I tell the students is, you know, take your childbirth ed classes.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're so important to understand the foundation of labor and how it progresses and the interventions.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: But if you only think of your pain coping skills in the theoretical and you don't actually apply them to discomfort, you're not really training yourself.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You might have a list, I'm gonna use mantras, I'm gonna use visualizations, I might use sound.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: But it's easy to just think of those when you're like talking to a partner or it's like laying on the couch.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: But can you then apply those same pain management skills when you're actually uncomfortable?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think the yoga can really intertwine well with that preparation.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we have this pose that I came up with years ago.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I call it the mock contraction, and it's a wall squat for 60 seconds because your average contraction is 60 seconds.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we go into that, we talk about what tool are you going to use to get through this discomfort?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or we have another one called screaming toe, which is a big toe stretcher, even just holding warrior two, you know, can be uncomfortable.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we're really marrying the childbirth education and coping with the practice itself.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's part of the training.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like I said earlier, it's looking at the physical body, looking at our compensation patterns, maybe always cross the same leg and that hip's a little, you know, um, that hip might be a little more forward, or you may have SI pain, or that glutes more engaged.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: How do we find that balance?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: So then we start to look at how can the physical body be more balanced?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that psoas tighter?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: How can we release the psoas and have it balanced?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is the pelvic floor overly engaged?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna say, and you and can definitely speak on this.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like our New Yorkers have tight pelvic floors.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's just the our nervous systems are a little jacked up.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's so many levels.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then even just on the basic, our breathing.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm sure again, you see with your clients really tight, like they're not breathing well.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that do to your nervous system?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you're not breathing well, what's that do to your pelvic floor?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I can so I feel like I'm going, I'm spiraling, but there's so many pieces to training for birth that we can bring into the yoga practice.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, I think breath is one of my favorites because it really can hit all of these things, it can help your nervous system, it can help find more balance, and it can help your pelvic floor.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So just throwing that out.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a long answer.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's something I'm really passionate about helping our students feel well trained and prepared.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the thing that stands out to me um that resonates a lot is just expectation.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think people are, especially when it comes to birth, people have various ways that they view birth based on what they've been told or a movie that they watched, or whatever the case is, right?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that birth can go so differently, and people's experience with birth is it's just like such a vast trajectory of what that could be like.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a personal experience that also like can get conveyed very differently, and then a person can also feel it very differently.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the communication of it is also important.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when people are going into a birth that's happening very soon, and they have all these like it's not even preconceived notions that are wrong, it's just a variety of notions, which none of them are their lived experience, it's other people's or what's presented in certain ways.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think the expectation going in can often get skewed and can not always serve people to be able to cope as well as they probably could if their expectations were just different.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I only say say all of this because I think that it's important for people to understand that your experience going into something is influenced by so much, but it can be changed to help you better.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the breathing, the mindset, the understanding that there is discomfort and there's almost like no way around having zero discomfort and ex expecting that can almost reduce the the trust thresholds considerably.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about that when we are doing uncomfortable poses.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I actually bring something up that almost all the time people are shocked.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I remind people that I have no stake in how they birth, except I want them to feel supported.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: But if the only coping situation Skill they have in their back pocket is an epidural, which is a great tool.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's their only tool, what if they're waiting in the waiting room?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know our New York City hospitals can be pretty crowded.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: What if the anesthesiologist is not available?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: They have to have at least a bag of fluid before they can have the epidural.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or what if there are one out of the 10 where it doesn't work fully?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: 10% of people that are getting epidural, it's not 100%.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: They might have half their body is getting pain relief and the other half isn't, or they have, I've had a client that had kind of a window of pain on one leg or her lower back.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've seen it work and or not always work.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned that in class the other day.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And one student's like, that was me in my last pregnancy.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: But what tends to happen is that if you only put stock in that one tool, what's going to happen if it doesn't work?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I tell them.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't have to think, oh, okay, I'm having an unmedicated birth, but I want you to be prepared should things not go as you expect it.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to have the tools if your epidural's not coming when you want, or what if you have a really fast birth and you don't get it?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like you said, we can't, we don't know how it's going to unfold.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we want people to have all the tools and options and the mindset to be able to adapt to whatever does happen.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not just talking epidurals, that's talking any change of plans.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: How can I even said to my students, it's not about a flexible body, it's a flexible mind.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: How can we be adaptable?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And how can your team support you through that?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think we see less birth trauma is when the person who's birthing feels supported and their voice is part of the experience.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you open this up to we can't expect one way of birth to flow because it's likely not going to go that way.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I told this to my patients, and at least from the physical side, again, we compare it to a marathon where we say you would train for the marathon, but you don't know if you're gonna trip over a log and sprain your ankle.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's also possible that that could happen or that like something goes wrong and you get, you know, a fracture, or that something goes wrong and like a day later your back starts killing you a little bit because you like stepped over something weird.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's but not training sets you up for so much more of that kind of stuff happening because your body is not resilient.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of goes into like what you were just saying about um, you know, this balance and this flexibility of the mind.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And if you have the balance and the flexibility of the body and the mind with your expectations, the chances of things maybe not going the best way that we I know best is like a very subjective way to look at it, but the way that we want, which often we think is the best, uh, those chances are just slower.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we want to do is use all of the tools that we have to create the flexibility, to create the mindset changes and balance and the body balance.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that and and balance doesn't always mean everything is 50-50, perfect, perfect.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it just means that what's right for you.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, we can we you can tell me how you speak to your clients about this in your studio, but like, do you have a tight XYZ or do you have a loose XYZ?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And what does that mean for you?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you integrate that information in a way that works and doesn't create like, you know, you um second guessing yourself or double thinking doing something?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for you to touch on that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we do a lot of conversation about the pelvic floor.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have so many pelvic models at the studio, and part of our methodology is that we always have them at the mat because I think people need to understand what it looks like.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a bony pelvis at the front of the mat, and I also have a pelvic floor model, and I show them.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you how many people are like, oh, there's a lot of muscles.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's more than I think.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: So many people think pelvic floor is just like the vaginal opening.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like they don't think anything else.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I show them the whole pelvic floor.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it's a time I'm gonna go into a whole conversation about it, I actually pull out the baby model and talk about how the baby moves through and how the baby hits the pelvic floor in the mid pelvis and needs to rotate.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if that pelvic floor is receptive, I always think it's like springy, like a trampoline.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's going to help that 90 degree turn and the chin come into the chest.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I find when I'm showing it to them and explaining that it needs to be able to support and to release, that people understand it more.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think what people hear oftentimes like tight, tight, tight, tight, and they just engage.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to talk about balance, that it needs to be supportive.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there if you sneeze or cough, we want that pelvic floor to be able to handle that pressure or the baby's head like rotating.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk a lot about that balance.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that I talk about this with the students when we do our pelvic floor balancing part is I give them about five different indicators of what could indicate tension in the pelvic floor and say, you know, if you relate to these, I'm gonna ask you to focus on just the 360 breathing, um, diaphragmatic breathing, and just work on how to let the pelvic floor receive the breath and let the pelvic floor lengthen.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't feel like you relate to these, then and I talk about how to actively engage up.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I find people start to identify that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I also do, because I want to stay my lane, is say, I'm gonna give you the broad strokes.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you identifiers.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you hear me and you're like, I don't even know from that where I fall in, that's when they should see people like you.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's when they really should start to get individualized care.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: That is not my lane.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna give them some of my most common ones are tailbone pain, um, constipation, hurts when you poop, pain with vaginal penetration.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to be a jaw clencher or butt clencher.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: If they're also if they're 36 plus weeks, I ask them not to actively engage.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the ones that most people are like, oh, I hear, you know, I think I relate to that.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So then they're gonna work on how to let the pelvic floor have some lengthening.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then if not, it will be working on active toning and different ways that I'll say that is, and I pull out the pelvic floor model and I say, you know, imagine you have a marble at your vaginal opening and you're drawing up the vagina, which is also interesting because most people don't realize the actual vagina is like the I call it a little baby hallway.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um they think it's actually baby hallway.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I'm going to use that moving forward.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll credit you.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you know, baby passes through.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So a little baby hallway.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think most people think of the vulva as the vagina.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, I talk about that, or like imagine your vaginas like um the straw of bulb, you know, the boba drinks, like with the ball, like the boba balls, like drinking up, or I'll talk about like drawing your sit bones in, but making sure they're not squeezing their glutes.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I have several different imagery.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think it's really important to make sure that they're working with the breath correctly, that the inhales to relax and the exhales either can be passive for those that are hypertonic and active lift for those that are looking for a little support.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: But we keep it pretty broad again because I want people to also be curious and seek more specifics.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I describe working with the pelvic floor that we need it to be responsive.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to support, but also be open to release.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to correct me.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's like I couldn't have said it better.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was the perfect, concise.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's like so many imagery um, you know, types that we can use and various ways to visualize.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I always present multiple options like you have to patients because they can choose whatever works for them.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I remember one time I was like doing an intravaginal assessment and I was saying a bunch of stuff.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I was saying the you close the flower, open the flower, pick up the two blueberries, fascinating erectile, drop the blueberries.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I did the elevator, I did the umbrella, I did all the things.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and she wasn't getting it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, and then suddenly she got it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, what did you think about?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me what you talking about.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I always ask them when they do a really good full range of motion.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I always ask them what was going on through your head so I can have more lists for the next patient to talk to walk them through it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, I just thought about holding my nose.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, but you worried, you were breathing.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, I know.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought about holding your nose.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: She thought she was like, I was thinking about holding my nose, but I was like, no, but you were actively exhaling.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, I don't know.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought about holding my nose, and for some reason everything worked.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know what?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what was happening.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: But you go ahead and every time, because it every time I would just stop talking, she would do it correctly.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is from then on.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I tell my patients who don't get the cues, I go, Would you like me to shut up?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very happy to stop talking.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now that you have all the visualizations, would you like me to keep cueing you with different ones?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can choose which one has worked the best, or I can shut up.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and they present the options.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, every once in a while they'll be like, Yeah, give me a minute.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just keep trying and you keep assessing.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when I get a good one, you you let me know.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, okay, let's do that, you know?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know what we just got in the studio?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I saw this online because sometimes I I often talk about the pelvic floor kind of looking like not the pelvic floor, sorry, the diaphragm being like a jellyfish, and then the pelvic floor mirrors that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I found online a jellyfish lamp, and so I got it, and it's in the studio.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So people have been saying, like, oh, now I understand the shape of the diaphragm and how that can affect the pelvic floor.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes, even though I had been verbally saying this for years, the visual of a jellyfish totally made a difference.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it now sits in the studio.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love that.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why it's really important because this is a very kind of like enigmatic, very like, oh, it seems like we can't even like put a finger on it because it's just it mostly internal and mostly in a very intimate space that people are not willing to engage with.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the use of the imagery, the visualizations, and making it as tangible as possible for them to understand is so useful because I mean, I tell this too, and I'm sure you do too.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's literally the door in which your baby may come out of the hallway, like the door slash the hallway.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we need to understand what's going on here.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: There, we need to do some like, you know, basic making sure of the structure and function and the quality and even just understanding and locating.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: We need to locate the door and the hallway.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is why I had the models because I remember doing a private childbirth education with a couple one time, and I was talking about the pelvis, and she's like, and where is that?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Great, okay, let's let's talk.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I, of course, showed up with a pelvis.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is your pelvis.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we should never make assumptions that especially, I mean, the pelvis, I'm like, we can touch our pelvises, and I showed it to her in the model.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to the pelvic floor, I think, I mean, this is a whole nother conversation, but there can be disconnect, there could be shame, there could be trauma.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: So by pulling out a model, I think it helps people identify what I'm talking about.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because otherwise, I think they just squeeze their butt.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: You probably see that a lot.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're like engaged and just like everything's tightening up.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that these conversations are important because we should talk about it.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we, I'm glad, I'm so happy that we are now in, you know, this century having this conversation.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: It did not happen in the last century to this effect.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think these conversations become even more important for people to listen to.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And people who are listening, whether you're a practitioner of any kind, a patient or client-facing profession, or you are somebody who's listening who's like on the patient side or pregnant side, we all have pelvises.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: We all could benefit from accessing and understanding this movement and movements and being more attuned with ourselves.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this conversation, I hope if you don't know anything about it, sparks interest and curiosity to delve in deeper.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also for people who are listening, the prenatal yoga center, especially if you live in New York and in Manhattan or surrounding areas, is a lovely way for you to get connected with your body and really understand movement in a holistic way.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to do that big shout out and thank you for this.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, you're so welcome.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what's really fun is that ever since COVID, we took everything online and we kept online.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how we're able to have our classes worldwide, like our teacher training, the one we just finished.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: We had a woman from Kuwait taking it.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So now she's teaching, and we've had all over the world, but now she's teaching our method there.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so we now are creating also a directory of some of our teachers in other parts of the world and countries.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just excited because I so believe in supporting the pregnant person physically and mentally.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it just makes me really happy that it's not just in New York anymore.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, primarily in New York, but but people can find it elsewhere.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Deb, do you have anything else to add to our conversation today?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: And also, could you please tell us um your guys' website or social media handles so people can find you?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to chat with you.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is so much fun.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: You have so much knowledge.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited to get you on my podcast talking all about what are we about in the pelvic floor?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's one of my favorite topics.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, people can find my podcast, Yoga Birth Babies.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then everything's really under the name Prenatal Yoga Center.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can find us online, prenatalyogacenter.com, um, YouTube, Instagram, recently dove into TikTok.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so everything's prenatal yoga center.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: I will drop all of that into the show notes so listeners can find it quickly.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Deb, for coming back onto the show to have this very important conversation.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm very excited to watch you and your team and your organization continue to grow worldwide, making big impacts on people who birth and beyond.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for tuning in and investing in yourself and your well-being.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you listened to the show today and gained anything out of it, share it far and wide.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: It means a world when you rate and review the show.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to use your exclusive 20% discount code FIT20 when you sign up for our signature course Master Your Public Floor, linked in the show notes.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: See you again next week with an exciting new guest and topic.