Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Episode 239: Transforming the Phoenix Personal Injury Market with Gordana Mikalacki

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Episode 239: Transforming the Phoenix Personal Injury Market with Gordana Mikalacki · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:01
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What
• 0:05
  Davina: if
• 0:05
  Intro: you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more. Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve, and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams. Now here's Devina.
• 0:51
  Davina: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Devina Frederick, and today's guest is Gordana Mikalicki. If you're on Instagram, you may know her as lawyer Gordie. That's how I met her and found out about her. Prior to founding Elm Law Group, Gordana served as an Arizona assistant attorney general under three attorneys general and partnered with another Arizona personal injury law firm.
• 1:16
  She founded Elm Law Group because she found the Arizona personal injury legal market to be stale and saturated with predominantly male run firms more concerned about their bottom lines than client injuries. Elm Law Group handles all types of personal injury matters, including trucking, car, motorcycle, pedestrian, bicycle, and motorcycle accidents as well as dog bikes and wrongful death. Gordy's firm prides itself on providing clients with a nontraditional law firm experience focusing on direct attorney client contact. She gives each client her private cell phone number, diligence, and straightforwardness. It uses modern technology to elevate efficiency and build client case values.
• 1:58
  Elm Law Group also takes a no nonsense approach geared towards settling cases while protecting client interests. Still, when it comes to cases that cannot be settled without litigation, Gordie and her team advocate diligently for their clients in the courtroom given her background as an assistant attorney general. Elm Law Group offers free consultations twenty four seven, seven days a week, and we are so happy to have Gordana or Gordie as we know her here today to talk with us about her business, Elm Law Group. So welcome, Gordie. We're so happy to have you.
• 2:34
  Gordana: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
• 2:38
  Davina: Good. I think we're mutual fans on Instagram. That's how we found each other was on Instagram. I love at Lawyer Gordie. And I was just telling you that I really love your gestures when you're doing your Instagram, and it's just so powerful.
• 2:51
  It, like, jumps off the screen at you. So kudos to that.
• 2:54
  Gordana: Thank you. Like, you.
• 2:57
  Davina: Exactly.
• 2:58
  Gordana: So why don't you start
• 3:00
  Davina: out by telling us a little bit about your journey to becoming a lawyer? Was this something you always knew that you wanted to do, or did it sort of evolve for you? I always find that origin story to be very interesting.
• 3:14
  Gordana: I actually was one of the few who really knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I think that my family had a positive connotation with attorneys. Like my dad was a businessman and my mom was too, and they always associated attorneys as being people who can help and did good. And so from a very young age, I knew what a lawyer was. I knew what they did.
• 3:36
  And I was like, yeah, I want to help people. I want to be able to use my skills to help people in my community. And so from a very young age, I just always you know, they ask you to draw a picture of what you wanna be, and I'd, like, draw myself with, a briefcase and say, I wanna be a lawyer.
• 3:54
  Davina: So Oh, that's wonderful. So you went so you went to undergrad and everything preparing to go to law school and be a lawyer.
• 4:02
  Gordana: That's right. That's right.
• 4:03
  Davina: What's your undergrad degree in?
• 4:05
  Gordana: Poly sci.
• 4:06
  Davina: Oh, okay. So you definitely were preparing to be a lawyer then. That's right. It's interesting though, because your practice area is personal injury. We're gonna get into your journey to that.
• 4:16
  But with your parents both have experiences with probably business lawyers and and it probably so when you went to law school, how did it sort of evolve for you? Because at first, you, you were an attorney general assistant attorney general. That's what you were doing. So was that something that an opportunity evolved as you were going through law school, through internships or connections, or how did that evolve?
• 4:43
  Gordana: Yeah. So prior to going to law school, I did this legislative internship with the governor's office and it was just really great. And I learned a lot about the legislative process, what the executive does, how she worked with the judiciary. And so it really got me interested in the public sector and how most of her lobbyists had law degrees and they all were lawyers. And so that was really exciting and interesting to be around people who have that background.
• 5:12
  So then I knew I definitely can do something with this. I want to go to law school. And then I went to law school and I did an internship back at the governor's office. And that was exciting. So I got to work on like a Supreme Court case that she was in, the governor at the time.
• 5:30
  And so it just evolved from there. I knew that I wanted to be in the public sector at the time. So I didn't know much about personal injury back then, but that's how I then became an assistant attorney general, is just following that public path.
• 5:46
  Davina: And so you probably would have stayed on that path, but for what happened to get you off that path and get you into personal injury? Because that's very different practice area.
• 5:57
  Gordana: It's very different. There was an opportunity, at the time I had my daughter and I was an assistant attorney general and being in court all day and that the ruling schedule was just a little bit much. And I had an opportunity to found a personal injury firm. And I've actually served a Croatian and I speak the language. I'm Serbian.
• 6:22
  I speak Serbo Croatian. And we have a huge population of Serbo Croatian people, Balkan people in the Phoenix area who want someone that speaks their language. So there was an opportunity to found a personal injury firm because there was such a demand for that niche market. And so that was really what lured me out of being an assistant attorney general was being able to have my own schedule, being able to serve people that were in my community, and that's what made me make the job.
• 6:50
  Davina: Did it take some sort of mindset shift for you to change practice areas? A lot of people look at personal injury and they go, you know, they can't especially if you're doing government work. Government work is very much a service, a reputation of being about service. Personal injury is very much a reputation about money, like the money. Right?
• 7:14
  That's how most people from the outside may look at it. What did did that how did you bridge that gap, or did you have those thoughts?
• 7:21
  Gordana: I definitely had those thoughts, and it took me a while to make that leap because I was an assistant attorney general. I felt like I was respected amongst judges and the family and the kids that I was helping because I worked in the child and the family sector. And I felt like it was so rewarding. I didn't think that personal injury law was going to afford me that same like warm and fuzzy feeling when I got home. But then I found that it really does because you're still helping people in need.
• 7:48
  And so I think that I was turned off by the way it was marketed. And I did think, and I still do think that it's often marketed about money and getting that settlement and get your check. And it just has a little bit of a slimy feel the way that attorneys market themselves sometimes. And I think that that was a turnoff for me. But once I dived into it, some of the few cases that I had, I had a poor girl that was at the time my daughter's age, and she was run over by a car.
• 8:15
  And it's just like, oh my gosh, my heart just broke for her. And I was like, this is an opportunity for me to help her and her family. And so that I saw that there actually was a very similar path from being an AG to transitioning into personal injury. And it wasn't what I thought it was going to be.
• 8:33
  Davina: Right. Right. It really goes back, I think, to that helping people. I think so many people are drawn to law because they have a vision of being able to serve and to help people. And some people are drawn to it, you know, for the money thinking I'm gonna come into this and have this big lifestyle or whatever.
• 8:52
  But I find the majority of really good attorneys are really drawn from a place of service. And I've always found personal entry, fascinating because to me, I know how it's I agree with you about how it's marketed. You're always seeing, you know, so and so got me this big check or whatever. Right. But I being on the other side and knowing other personal injury attorneys and the work that they do and seeing how they really are dealing with people whose lives have been devastated.
• 9:20
  And the only way to not even make them whole, but just to get them functional is to be able to get them money, right, to be able to to have what they need for the rest of their lives. So it really is a a very powerful vehicle for helping people and serving people in a much needed service. And, unfortunately, that's not how it's kinda put out there, you know, for marketing. What do you think you do that is different from other lawyers in terms of marketing personal injury services?
• 9:58
  Gordana: Well, first off, me being a mom and me being a female, this is a very male dominated field. And that's something that I noticed in my prior firm that I founded was that it was very much lacking empathy. And whereas I really have this empathy for these clients and their injuries. And I feel like what I offer is more of like a maternal approach. Like I really truly can empathize with them that it's hard for them, that their day to day is difficult, that it's hard for them to go to work, that it's hard for them to just do regular mundane tasks that we often take for granted, like grocery shopping and driving and all those things after they've been involved in an accident and hurt.
• 10:38
  So I think that that is something that clients really like to feel that you care about them. It's not just about the bottom line. You don't treat them just as a number. They're an actual human being and a person. And so I definitely try to evoke that in my marketing.
• 10:56
  And it's just it's just organic as to how I want our clients to be treated at my firm. So I hope that comes out in my marketing.
• 11:06
  Davina: Right. Right. So that's kind of your approach is to to be, like, real person to person as opposed to, we get you the big payoff. Because I think I think the the kind of message that comes across with the we get you the big payoff is there are people out there who are doing this so that they get a big paycheck. And that's not what's happening.
• 11:25
  You're having people who are going about their lives and then suddenly it's disrupted in a major way that changes the course of their life forever. I just had a friend of mine. Her son was in an Uber, in the back of an Uber, and a couple of girls were out early in the morning coming in the and they came went the wrong way down the interstate and head on collision into this Uber. And but for him wearing his seat belt, he would not have been alive. As it was with his seat belt, it just about cut him in half.
• 11:59
  And he had major injuries in every part of his body but his head. Thank goodness not his my head. Gosh. Wow. But his lie he's 25 years old.
• 12:08
  His life is forever altered by that circumstance. And he will he will he's big strapping athletic kid, and then he's, you know, now surgery, surgery, surgery, surgery, and fortunate that he lived. So I think about circumstances like that, And this wasn't somebody who's looking for a payday. No. This is somebody who his life is forever altered.
• 12:34
  How's he gonna pay for it? How's he gonna live? How's he gonna function while he's going through surgeries and rehab? And it's probably gonna be years, and he'll probably never be the same.
• 12:43
  Gordana: Right.
• 12:43
  Davina: And and it's that kind of thing. I think that when people are thinking about personal injury, they're not really I mean, they're marketing it that way, the big paycheck. They're not really marketing it to people who like, you're going through your day. You're not thinking you're gonna hire a personal injury attorney. Right.
• 13:03
  People hope that they never have to hire a personal injury attorney. Right?
• 13:07
  Gordana: Right.
• 13:07
  Davina: So I get your point on the marketing. I think that's very savvy to pick up on that. Do you tell me a little bit about your business. Now you started you had you had co founded a had a partner in a law firm, and then you left that partnership and you started your own firm. What year did you start your own firm?
• 13:30
  Gordana: I started my own firm in 2019. And so that was exciting. And then COVID hit. So we had a bit of a I think actually That wasn't exciting. That wasn't exciting for anyone.
• 13:43
  We had our grand opening on the 02/29/2020, and then COVID hit a couple weeks
• 13:52
  Davina: after. March. So it was like
• 13:53
  Gordana: 20 Hi.
• 13:55
  Davina: Hi. Oh, no. Yeah. So Yeah. So what did you do during that sort of after the panic and then the calm?
• 14:04
  What did you what did you do to really start getting this moving?
• 14:09
  Gordana: I marketed as much as I could. I joined network groups, met people in my community, made sure that people that were also in my community knew that I was doing this, friends, family, people I went to high school with. Because I'm a native of Arizona and I've been here my entire life. My network started when I was born here, people I went to church with, people I went to school with. And so I really made sure to let everyone know this is what I do.
• 14:36
  And if you need something, give me a call. And so I felt like that really helped, especially during COVID, at least during 2020 when things were a little bit slow for everyone. And that was just my method was just, you know, let everyone know I'm your girl. Give me a call. I wanna help you.
• 14:55
  Davina: Yeah. Were you able to I mean, there weren't a lot of networking events happening at the time. So did you start leveraging social media then?
• 15:03
  Gordana: Yes. That's actually when I started social media. The networking groups that I did, luckily, they were on Zoom. So that was good. We were able to do that every week and, like, meet different professionals.
• 15:14
  And it wasn't a competitor competition in my area. It was doctors and accountants and real estate agents and insurance agents. And so people in different areas that I was able to network with that way. And then that's also when I started social media. So
• 15:33
  Davina: Yeah. So when you started doing social media, were you doing that you're doing that yourself, just putting yourself out there. Did you Yep. Kind of know what you were gonna do, or were you just all new to you and you're just figuring it out as you go along?
• 15:46
  Gordana: It was all new to me, and I was just figuring it out. And at that time, it still wasn't really like video centered. It was a lot of like written things and advice and tips and things like that that I would do. And then I think 2021 is maybe when Instagram really adopted kind of like the TikTok model and TikTok really took off in 2020. And that's when reels hit and videos just became king.
• 16:10
  And so I remember shooting my first video or my first reel in March 2021, and I was like terrified. You know? I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm putting myself out there where the people say something and they think it's weird and this and that. And then like, who cares?
• 16:25
  I'm just gonna Yeah. Do it. So I did.
• 16:27
  Davina: That was my next that was my next question is whether you had any trepidation or nerves around creating video and putting it out there because now you're pretty prolific. You have a lot. You've been doing this for a long time. And I've like, the production of your video has evolved a little bit on some of the things that you're doing. And what did you do to sort of get over that those nerves of that
• 16:52
  Gordana: I just told myself, like, it's who cares? You are I would love watching the videos of others. Right? And I would sit there and I'd watch them and I'd enjoy them and think they were so great. And then I'd, kinda start scrutinizing them.
• 17:05
  I'm like, well, like, you know, something was in the background there and it wasn't a big deal and I didn't really notice it. And so I noticed that people were shooting these videos and it wasn't like this perfection standard. And so then if I enjoyed that model and I enjoyed those videos, why did I then hold myself to this like standard that was almost unattainable? And I just thought product over perfection, like get the product out there, get the message out there to people. You're helping people.
• 17:31
  They don't care if your printer's behind you because guess what? I print. So Exactly.
• 17:38
  Davina: Exactly. And I know that can that's you when you first start doing it, like so for me, I, you know, I've had opportunities to produce videos and stuff like that. Most of my videos though were done with me at my desk with my camera. And I'm just Right. It's because I want to get things published.
• 17:56
  And that's more important to me than taking the time out to have an elaborate process or set because I'm busy. I've got a lot of things going on in my business. So and it's amazing to and I think really over time, one of the things that's happened on Instagram and TikTok is that people have become accustomed to and really gravitate toward people who are just authentic. Right.
• 18:19
  Gordana: Right.
• 18:19
  Davina: They're just authentically sharing as opposed to something that's highly produced, you know, because oftentimes people think that's an ad. Well, that must be an ad
• 18:28
  Gordana: because the ads are different. Right? True. And the videos, I mean, I now do like a content shooting day where I actually have someone shoot the content. I write all my own content still, but I will notice that some of the off the cuff videos, I'm just like holding my phone and I'm doing like a selfie style reel.
• 18:46
  Those will generally have more views and more likes and more shares than something that's, like, overly produced and prepared and the lighting's just right. So I feel like you're right about that. The more organic, the better. It's just all about the message and authenticity. Makes it harder
• 19:01
  Davina: it makes it harder to outsource, but I outsource the production piece of it. So let's talk about your law firm. Give me an idea of how you've grown during that amount of time. Like how big is your team right now?
• 19:18
  Gordana: Well, have a paralegal, we have a legal assistant, legal secretary, receptionist. Now we're hiring new case managers. And so we're growing. And in the 2023, we grew 56%. So it just started going like once August hit, I mean, the amount of intakes that we got was just like, can you guys believe this?
• 19:43
  Like there's, here's another one and another one. And we signed this person. So that's been super exciting. And we're trying to be more proactive about it and not like hire someone when we're drowning. We still really believe in that client centered approach and that concierge service.
• 20:01
  I give clients my cell phone number. They can access me. They can talk to me. And I don't want to not be able to give them that. So hiring more people to be able to sustain the growth has been super important.
• 20:15
  Davina: Right. Right. So are you remote? Is your team remote? Or are you guys in an office someplace altogether?
• 20:22
  Gordana: We have a physical location, which is where I'm at. We're at 32nd Street in Osborne. Some of our team is remote and some of our team is not. So I think that it is something that COVID showed us is that we can do a lot remote, which is great. We used to not know that we could even sign clients remotely, but then COVID showed us that we can.
• 20:44
  And actually a lot of personal injury clients prefer it that way because their car is damaged, they're hurt, they don't want to get back on the roads. So we can quickly sign them up. And if they want to come meet us later in the heart of Phoenix, they can come to our office, and we're here and we're happy to meet them.
• 20:58
  Davina: So Right. So there's a place they could track you down if they wanna track you down and meet you and that kind of thing. Yeah. Have you noticed any particular sort of management challenges, or has it been easier having some employees remote and some not kind of like, any any distinction between those management styles for you?
• 21:19
  Gordana: I mean, I always think, like, when someone's remote, obviously, you never really know what they're doing per se. So you always have to measure them on productivity and like what they're actually producing. And so we'll have those types of KPIs that we can set to be like, did you meet this criteria, that criteria? How many demands have you done or how many settlements have we gotten just to make sure things are moving? And so there is sometimes a challenge with it being virtual, but I think that we hire and we look for a lot of self starters.
• 21:51
  So people who actually do feel like they're independent, they can work on their own without much guidance or micromanaging. And that's helpful always to have employees who gravitate towards that if they're gonna be virtual.
• 22:06
  Davina: What do you think your management style is?
• 22:10
  Gordana: I don't like to be a micromanager, but I like to get stuff done. So if I feel like something's not getting done, I'm just gonna I'm gonna get on it, and I wanna get that produced. I want to get the client, their settlement in the time frame that I promise. Because ultimately, my reputation's on the line. My name's on the door.
• 22:32
  I want our reputation to continue to have five star reviews on Google. I want them to feel comfortable referring their friends and family. So for me, every case matters. It doesn't matter if it's small or if it's big. So I let our team obviously handle things, but then if something's happening and I need to kind of jump on it, I'm like, hey guys, we really got to get going here.
• 22:57
  And I look for patterns and trends too. Towards the end of the year, we know insurance companies are always more amicable to settle. And so if we have some of those cases that we can get through the door and get those clients a settlement before the holidays, let's get do do that. Let's do all that.
• 23:13
  Davina: So Right. Right. How do you think your time with the as an assistant attorney general and your work in government has impacted the way you work today in your personal injury firm?
• 23:28
  Gordana: I think that empathy chip, which I had working in the public sector, as I mean, as a assistant attorney general, obviously, any public position, you're not getting paid a lot. You kind of have to want to be there. So I really loved what I did and I felt like I made an impact for those families and that they knew I cared about them. So that definitely has transitioned into my personal injury practice. And I feel like it's also something that's lacking in personal injury and the entire market, whether it's the Phoenix market or even nationwide.
• 23:59
  I feel like clients want to feel like they're cared about. And so when you have an attorney who's empathetic, who cares, who wants to listen, I think that that to them is like, wow. You know, I wasn't expecting that. You know, I've seen all the ads on TV. I've seen all the billboards, and they weren't they don't really expect you to receive them that way.
• 24:19
  So that's definitely helped.
• 24:23
  Davina: When you you said things start to really pick up in August. What do you think sort of precipitated that? I mean, what do you did you kind of put your finger on what it was where suddenly the floodgates were opening?
• 24:37
  Gordana: I definitely feel like it takes a while if you're networking or doing any kind of marketing for you to really see it. You're not going to see it like next week or a month from now. You're going to see it maybe like six months. And so we really hit the ground running with our marketing, with our advertising on social media. We were just doing like double the output, posting more videos, posting more reels.
• 25:01
  And we're getting a lot of traction off of social media, off of TikTok, off of people that would just look at our location and search injury attorney and say, hey, I found you on TikTok. I saw your video. I think that coupled with reputation of getting great reviews, great client reviews, people then feel more comfortable to start recommending you doctors that you work with or chiropractors that know you were past clients. They really feel comfortable to recommend you because their case is done, they were happy with the results, and then someone needs you and they're like, Hey, you should really go to Gordie. She'll take care of you.
• 25:43
  Davina: Yeah. I a lot of people think to start a personal injury firm, sort of need deep pockets because we know that you have to be prepared to handle costs because most personal injury firms, we don't get paid unless you do. We hear a lot. Right. How did you sort of prepare for that?
• 26:03
  Gordana: I definitely did not have deep pockets starting out. I kept my costs low and I did a lot of stuff myself. You know, I think that sometimes attorneys can be a little bougie and maybe not want to roll their sleeves up, especially if they're leaving a position to start their own. They kind of maybe got a taste of that big firm life where things were nice and cushy. So for me, it wasn't difficult because I came from the public sector and so we didn't have that cushy feel.
• 26:31
  So I really just rolled my sleeves up and knew that a lot of it was going to be done by myself. And when I was able to start hiring people like on a contract basis before giving them like an actual real position, that helped too when I was scaling and growing. And so I feel like if you can keep your overhead and your costs slow and not just waste money on frivolous things, You start stockpiling some of this money, and then you can use it for, like, marketing and hiring and all that kind of stuff and internal processes that, you know, we have different programs for. So
• 27:10
  Davina: Right. Right. Your tell me about hiring your first one or two people. Did you have fears or worries around that, and how did you overcome that?
• 27:21
  Gordana: For sure. For sure. It was like, you know, you put your toe in the water. You just like, don't wanna get in. You're like, oh, yeah.
• 27:28
  This is my baby. This is my third baby. So it's like giving the reins to someone else and like letting them do it. That was very hard for me to do that. And so, you know, it took me a while, but then it's like you get to a point also where you wanna be able to help everyone and you're only one person and there's only so many hours in the day.
• 27:53
  And so then you realize that the formula means you've got to go and you've got to hire. And so that was definitely difficult, but something that I overcame. And then I listened to just so many podcasts such as yours and Jen Gore's, any episode she's been on, she's a trailblazer. And, you know, they always give you the tip that you really hire slowly and you hire fast. So I'm really judicious with my hires.
• 28:20
  I want people here for the long run. I want them to be invested and have the same business model like I do because I want the clients to get that feeling from everybody on our team, not just from me, but to really feel like we really care about their case.
• 28:37
  Davina: So when you're hiring people, you are really making sure that you're hiring people who care about the work, obviously, and the kind of work you do and understand that. Are there certain things that you ask when you're interviewing people that sort of help you sift through people that are gonna be a good fit with your firm culture?
• 28:58
  Gordana: I do. I'll I mean, I'll ask them their strengths and weaknesses in a roundabout way, and I can tell if it's one of those, like, BS, you know, what response to give if they ask you that.
• 29:10
  Davina: Well, my weaknesses is that I'm a perfectionist.
• 29:13
  Gordana: Yeah. Think I've done interviews actually. She's hired. Yeah. So I'll ask the question.
• 29:22
  I actually just had some interviews prior to us doing this podcast and I had asked that question and the answers that they give are very telling, you know? So I definitely listened to that. I also want to just get to know them as a person, know? So I'll ask them, you know, what do you like to do for fun? What's kind of your hobby?
• 29:41
  Because we can teach this to anyone, you know, we really can. And I mean, I even have a nine year old daughter and she's listening to me talk to State Farm and Progressive and all these insurance companies. She could probably do this pretty soon. But like, I wanna make sure that the personalities mesh, right? Because I can't teach empathy.
• 30:01
  I can't teach the person who's a team player. And so that's really what I do look for is how are they going to evolve with our team? Is it gonna be drama, or is it gonna be somebody who's like, hey, yeah, we're in this together. Let's help these people out. Let's help these clients out.
• 30:21
  Davina: So What advice would you have for other women lawyers who are coming up maybe in the personal injury field or some other field starting their firm, maybe mistake your biggest mistake you made that you wouldn't that you'd tell them so they wouldn't make it, or the number one piece of advice you'd have for them?
• 30:40
  Gordana: I would let them know. I wouldn't sugarcoat it. I feel like a lot of times people sugarcoat it. You know, it is hard, but if you want it, you can do it. You set your mind to it, it's mindset.
• 30:49
  You can do it. Align yourself with people who are better than you. Align yourself with mentors because if you're in that circle and you're watching them and you're absorbing their habits, those become your habits. And so I think that that helps a lot. I think that I was fortunate enough to be around judges and the governor and her staff and judicial assistants and clerks.
• 31:14
  And I was just around the right people that lifted me up. Maybe I wasn't supposed to do this. I'm a first generation. My family is a family of entrepreneurs. Nobody's an attorney, but I knew I wanted to do that.
• 31:26
  And so I made sure to put myself in that circle to be able to actually bump me into this field. So I think that definitely aligning yourself with people you aspire to be like is definitely a good way to give you a chance into this.
• 31:43
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I think it's so important to surround yourself with like minded people both in the both attorneys you aspire, who you admire for their ethics and the way they conduct themselves and their professionalism and all of that, and also with business leaders that you, you know, like you mentioned, Jen Gore Cuthbert as somebody who, you you know, that your whole that you look out and you go, okay.
• 32:13
  Here's somebody who's ahead of me on the journey that I aspire to be. So I watch what she does. So looking for those identifying those people. And oftentimes it doesn't have to be a full on relationship with people. Sometimes you can just watch what people are doing and learn from it or listen to the messages they put out.
• 32:31
  Like, we were talking about listening to podcasts or reading books or that kind of thing, and you can get a lot. I'm always for me, my whole the whole career, I've always looked for thought about what I put in my head. So I look for podcast what podcast list to what before there were podcasts, what radio, what books, What people do I surround myself with, and what messages do do I tell myself? And I think it's so important. There's often so many negative messages out there that come to us unwanted from people who are bitter, who life didn't work out the way or whatever.
• 33:09
  Right? And sometimes they're from people who love us most. And so it's important to be intentional and be selective about who you let take up space in your brain when you're doing something that's as challenging as not only being a lawyer, but then starting a law firm on top of that and being a business owner. Do you agree?
• 33:30
  Gordana: I totally agree with that. And I think that you do oftentimes face, and I had this backlash too, when maybe the friends that you had in your twenties and you're doing this and you're grinding and you're studying and you can't go out to the bars and hang out with them, celebrate every single event, right? They kind of are gonna give some pushback to you and start saying, oh, you think you're better than us. Oh, you only wanna hang out with other people who are lawyers or doctors or whatever. And that's really not the case.
• 33:57
  So you have to just really tune that noise out and be okay with hearing that and not letting it affect you because your goal is bigger. You're trying to do something bigger and greater. And so there's going to be always those little people trying to throw things into your mind and your mind needs to be clear and focused so you really can get on the path and achieve the goals that you wanna achieve. Yeah.
• 34:23
  Davina: I it's interesting because I saw a realist reminds me of a reel of yours that I just saw. It like a recent one like you just put out that was about, you know, here I am. This is what an attorney's law firm owner's life is is really like. I'm sitting here grinding. This is, you know, x time at night, and I'm sitting here in my sweatshirt grinding.
• 34:41
  I'm not outliving this high life because I think we see so much on social media with influencers and coaches and lawyers and successful people who are out there saying, this is what life is like, and I'm doing all of these magical, wonderful things. And I think it gives the misimpression to a lot of people that there's not a whole lot of work that goes behind I mean, there's a there's a whole lot of work that goes behind it all the way from what you were what you were doing in the high school and then college and all of that. Right? To even get to the point where to get into a good law school and do all those things. And they don't see the the hours and hours of saying no to fun things so we can do the hard things that go behind it.
• 35:29
  So I appreciated your message when I saw that. I'm like, yeah, that's that's so true. You know? Because we see so much out there. It looks like people's highlight reels.
• 35:37
  I'm out living this good life, and we don't really get to see what goes on behind the scenes. So I appreciated that reel.
• 35:44
  Gordana: Thank you. Any
• 35:47
  Davina: last thoughts you wanna leave us with today before we wrap up?
• 35:50
  Gordana: I mean, I think that if you set your mind to something, you can achieve it. I've just always been of that mindset. I've never let anyone tell me no. It's like once I put it in my head, it's happening, whatever it is, whether it's to be a lawyer when no one in my family was, whether it's to start my own personal injury firm during COVID, I just put my mind to it. I just hunker down and grind and things happen.
• 36:16
  So that would be my takeaway to anyone, whether it's in the law or business or anything, is if you wanna do something, it's all about mindset.
• 36:25
  Davina: Yeah. Make your own luck. Make your own luck. Right?
• 36:28
  Gordana: I love that. Yeah.
• 36:30
  Davina: Alright. Well, thanks so much, Courtney, for being here. I've enjoyed our conversation. I really appreciate you coming on.
• 36:35
  Gordana: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure, and I love your podcast. So I'm happy to be a part of
• 36:40
  Davina: the fine tuning. Thank you.
• 36:42
  Intro: If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at Wealthy Woman Lawyer dot com to learn more about how we help our clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.