Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Lawyer and Dad: You Don't Have to Choose, with Matthew Korn

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Lawyer and Dad: You Don't Have to Choose, with Matthew Korn · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I feel like a single mom about a year into him being born.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I used to say I'm the guy who can survive on five hours of sleep.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was wrong, by the way.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I catch myself, I'm thinking about that email that I just got from opposing counsel, and I'm not really listening.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why does he need two more than two weeks of leave?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't have a baby.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is ever gonna be more than like five or ten guys sitting around a Zoom.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's possible to be a really, really good lawyer and be a really good parent at the same time.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast where we are happy, healthy, and successful.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get into it.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Great shirt.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to chat with you.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: You're one of those people who I'm like, how has it taken this long for us to connect?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because we live in such overlapping worlds with overlapping networks and are overall after the same mission.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, that's a big part of the wellness esquire.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, guys, there are actually so many of us.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm quite convinced it's actually most of us who don't know each other yet.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: So if we we all just get in the same place and bring our communities together, like we'll take over a law.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: So here we go.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I really appreciate you bringing me on and and truly, um, I'm I'm excited and and um I'm glad we're we're getting to do this.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm thrilled and genuinely when I first came across you through some combination of the magic of LinkedIn and again our overlapping networks, I I was like, well, it really did surprise me that we hadn't connected yet because what you're doing is so important.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'm gonna be curious to hear from you if when you started Dad Esquire, you were like, Am I alone in this?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's gotta be somebody else.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna get into all of that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, so I'm I'm just I'm delighted and thrilled.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for doing this with me.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um before we get into the very exciting world of Dad Esquire and your life and work now at Pearson Ferdinand.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um what drove you to law school?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Why did you want to become a lawyer?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I'm first generation college student in my family, actually.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um at 13, I said I was gonna be a lawyer and I'm goal-oriented.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd stuck.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I don't I don't know why.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly I look back and I'm like, I liked Law and Order and Jack McCoy.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I I think it was a combination of all that, and I just thought lawyers were cool.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had no idea what I was getting into.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to college and I was like, I'm gonna be a political science major because that's what gets you to law school.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um halfway through college, I was like, I really like philosophy, but I don't want to ex extend my experience.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to delay law school, so I'm gonna take as much philosophy as I can and then get to law school and continue reading philosophy books.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I did.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then and I and I went straight through from undergrad to law school because that was my I set a goal and I was like, I'm gonna achieve that goal.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go to law school.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: So was there any point where you started thinking to yourself, like, hey, I actually don't even really know what a lawyer does.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I should think about that.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like halfway through my first semester of law school, probably.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so grade timing.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And what did you start thinking about at that point?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I I had read that book.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a book One L Scott Turo wrote, and I I still recommended that book to like new people that are thinking about law school.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I obviously like people aren't ripping pages out of books and libraries anymore, like in that book they did, but you know, because it's all online now.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it does a good job of like telling you about the roller coaster of that first year and the like emotions you go through, and you know, being in December and seeing my friends get clerkships, and I'm struggling and sending out job applications and like just praying I get some job for the first summer, like all of that emotion from that first year.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd managed it pretty well.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I still had no idea.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, like for me, what I did, I I um did as many externships as I could during law school to try to try to just see like what does this actually mean to be a lawyer?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, before law school, I probably would have been like, there's there's prosecutors, defense attorneys, family lawyers, and the people I see on billboards.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's like what you know, my family would ask me questions like, are you gonna be a prosecutor or defense attorney?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I don't think I'm gonna be either of those things, but I don't really know what I'm gonna be yet.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's gonna be one of those two.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are other options, but I'm not really sure what they are yet.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly like, but that was, you know, my family, my dad was did outside sales, my mom was stay-at-home and a bookkeeper, uh, and we didn't have lawyers in our family.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like we I really went in, uh, you know, now I I try to give back.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: I try to meet with like college students who are thinking about law school, and I encourage them to meet with as many lawyers as they can just to know, like, you know, law seems cool.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's it is a I love the practice of law, I love the profession, so um, but it's not for everybody.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I try to, you know, share what I like about it, what what is stressful about it with people so they can make a you know, before they take on the student loans for their first year law school, they can make a better informed decision than I did.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: It worked out for me.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Seems to have gotten you to a good place.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you're now a management side employee employment lawyer.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: How did you get here?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And how did you understand, oh, this is a good fit for me?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um so my first when I went into second year, after I like, you know, first year law school, they you take the same class as everybody take torts and con law and all the courses.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I thought maybe I want to be an international lawyer.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'd done a lot of model United Nations in high school.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I went to The Hague um for an international model UN conference.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was I thought that would be really cool.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I took my first international law class and we talked about contracts and treaties the whole class, and I was like, man, I'm I'm an extreme extrovert.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I like talking to people, being around people.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is not for me.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was like, what do I what do I do now?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I had I started taking some employment law classes, and what I immediately realized my first job was at McDonald's.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I worked there for two and a half years.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I was a manager, I got promoted to manager at 17, and then um got to work with my friends, and I made all the mistakes that a manager has ever made in a restaurant um at seven between 17 and 18.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really what I took from that, and then when I started taking employment law classes, is I really love this this relationship or this um, like how do we there's always an us them between management employees that that exists, but like how do we find a way to make that work as well as it can?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because a company is only as good as its employees.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do we how do we reduce that friction?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: How do we make these two groups work best together?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that really drew me into employment law.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I started doing externships um in the employment law space and really just fell in love with that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and I get to talk to people, I get to interview people, I do investigations, I I do litigation, so I get to interact with people, and I'm not, you know, MA would have not been the right path for me because if I'm sitting there reviewing contracts all the time, I that would have been tough for me.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually fascinated that you understood yourself in that way well enough at that point because I think a lot of people don't, and I I include myself, I'm not sure how much I understood how to think about like how do I what energizes me.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: I only in the last handful of years started to think about that question of what energizes me, what drains me, your awareness of like I'm an extrovert.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Most of my day day needs to be talking to people and not sitting here quietly reading stuff is so much of what's gonna lead you to the career path that actually allows you to be happy, but it's it's not a default recognition for everybody.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: How did you have that awareness of yourself?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I mean, uh looking back, like I don't know.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it was just like I'm a person that when I enjoy something, it excites me, it drives me.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I, you know, I just fell in love very quickly with employment law.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, I think it's because it just it felt natural for me to do those things.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: But what you just said is something like when I meet with these students either in law school or before law school, and they say, I'm really excited to be fill-in-the-blank type of lawyer when I grow up.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: I encourage them to like talk to those kind of lawyers, like do an externship if they can, because you can really love the substance of the law that you're interested in, but the day-to-day is way more important to me.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to enjoy the day-to-day, and like the substance of the what I'm doing is less important, at least to me, um, because I want to be happy with what I do and excited about it.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, and there are different, you know, there's different types of employment lawyers.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a benefits lawyer.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, benefits lawyers are really in the weeds on the regulatory stuff.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's not for me.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do, you know, traditional employment law, I do riffs, uh RIF counseling and advice and litigation.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I do wage an hour because I'm a really weird lawyer that loves math and numbers and spreadsheets.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So like I I love getting in a spreadsheet.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's like my favorite thing to do as a lawyer.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, for me, like the day-to-day drives me.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the substance, the substance is, you know, you want to like the type of law you're doing, but it's less important than live how you live your life.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Did you always understand that part about how you're living your life?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no, probably I probably didn't know it going in.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I kind of got lucky in a way that I fell into something that I enjoyed both substantively and the and the day-to-day of what I do.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I probably that's that's where I think like that's that's probably why I like paying it forward, in my mind, paying it forward to people to help them kind of discover these things before they get too far in.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also like recently learned that just because you've been doing something for 10, 15, 20 years doesn't necessarily mean that's what you have to do for the rest of your career.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that that felt like to me as a lawyer, like a light bulb moment.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, we'll talk, I'm sure, about my community that I formed, but like you get in this path as a lawyer where you're like, I've been doing this for 15 years.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what I'm gonna do until I'm 65?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, I'm 40.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Does can I do something different with my career?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I also like I graduated law school in 2010, the absolute worst year for lawyers to graduate law school in the history of the law.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't get a job at a big firm like I thought I would.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up in the Department of Labor, which turned out to be great.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's what you know, when I'm talking to law students and they're not going to exactly where they wanted to be, I'm like, take what you can from that and know that that's that's a that's a jumping off point.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: If that's not where you're meant to be ultimately, you won't be there.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it's jumping off point.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot in there.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just I went on a lot of it.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Since you since you jumped in with that, I I want to keep going with this recognition of just because I've been doing X for you know my career up till this point, that doesn't mean that that has to be what I do for the rest of my career and the rest of my life.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it can mean that you loved it for a period of time and for whatever reason it's just not the right fit anymore.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you still love it, but your life circumstances don't allow for it.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you actually don't love it anymore, maybe you actually never loved it, and now you realize that you're allowed to like what you do.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many reasons that you just you get to decide I want to do something different.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: How did you come to that awareness?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I so I turned 40 in December 2024, and I think that was where I was in this mentality of this is I'm an employment lawyer, I'm a partner, I'm a law firm, life's good, like I'm comfortable.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I was like, is that is that what I'm leaving behind?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is that, you know, I don't know.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: There was just this itch inside me to do something.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had a a conversation with somebody, uh a friend of mine that has done some really, really amazing things in the autism community.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and she she once said that all of the incredible things that I know about her and she did, most of those happened after she turned 40.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like for me, that was the light bulb for that I needed.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: That was the nudge I needed to be like, I'm 40, I got a lot, I got a lot of time to do something that matters, something that's impactful.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um like I said, I love I love what I do as a lawyer, and I I I'm up I I think I actually thrive when I have more on my plate than less.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I instead of saying I want to do something different and just completely switching gears, I'm like, I'll just add this on top of what I'm already doing and I can relate to that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like my overachiever um type A personality.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I was in every club in college.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's just how I've always been.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so going back to kind of the earlier part of your career through now, where you recently uh became a partner at Pearson Ferdinand, what was your career journey like in terms of I don't generally use the word balance, but let's go with it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the the way you felt about okay, yes, you actually really are a good fit for this work, but you're a husband, you've now got four kids, you you know, you've got this incredible career and a life and a family.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you've also mentioned having Crohn's.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: So how are you packaging all of that together?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: How did it was it working?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: How did you feel?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not not perfectly uh by any means, and and I don't think I ever will be.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think early on, like it's been a it's been a long journey um since I graduated like 16 years ago.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, I was when I started off at my at in my law firm after my government experience, I went to a private practice, and I am an ambitious gung-ho person.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that I put a lot of my identity in being a lawyer.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I spent a lot of my time like thinking and doing law and left little for uh my wife.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then when our first son came along, um one of the one of the pivotal moments for me that I talk about openly online too is is she said, I feel like a single mom about a year into him being born.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that was me.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was putting pressure on myself.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was I was going to 10 conferences a year trying to grow a practice and a book.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was when I was home, I was working all hours.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I sleep five hours a night.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I used to say I'm the guy who can survive on five hours of sleep.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need the seven to eight that everybody in the world that knows what they're talking about says you should get.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm but I'm better than that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was wrong, by the way.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I but I lived that way for a long time.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: So and you're not the only one.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's I mean, I think that's that's uh it's not uncommon.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it for me it's been like a slow, gradual like recognition that um I put too much stock into the law practice.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say that like I don't take it as seriously anymore.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I still um take my job very seriously, I still do really good work for my clients, um, but I I am more intentional about carving out space for my family than I used to be and making sure that the work doesn't always override into there's there's you know, I'm a litigator, so sometimes there's busy weeks where I'm like, I'll just tell my wife, this is gonna be a tough week.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I got three briefs due on Friday, and it's gonna be a tough week.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then the next week I'm gonna try to carve out some extra time um to be around more.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's there's that to me, it's about for me, I have to be really super intentional about how I'm using that time.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I was just having a conversation last night with a friend, and um, he's a paramedic EMT.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's actually my sister-in-law's fiance.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um I was like, Do you think about work like as a shift, you know, as a shift worker?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you bring that home with you.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Sometimes I do.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes it's still in my head, like what happened that day, what's gonna happen the next day.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was like, I think that's one of the toughest parts of being a lawyer, is it never goes away.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's always there in the back of my head.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: When my kid comes home from school and is trying to tell me something they're excited about.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I catch myself like I'm thinking about that email that I just got from opposing counsel and I'm not really listening.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've I've stopped myself, like more recently, I've stopped myself and I've just said, like, look, I'm sorry, I wasn't really paying attention.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they can tell too, but they I acknowledge like I wasn't paying attention.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me again.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here now, I'm I've turned off my monitors, I'm I'm listening.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd like to get to a point where I'm just listening before I do that, but um, like I said, not perfect, still working on it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: But the way you just described that to me, it sounds very much like what the practice of meditation is.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the practice of meditation is you know, you you're quieting your mind, and then when something pops into your head, you acknowledge it and you kind of you know put it aside and you try to quiet your mind again, and then you, you know, when when, not if something then pops into your head, you know, your head again, you just do the same practice.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I I've heard from a lot of people, and I think I was this way when I first started learning how to meditate as well, you know, especially with a perfectionist, you know, kind of stereotypical lawyer mindset.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: We go into something like this and we're like, well, we have to be perfect, we have to never ever have the thoughts we don't want to have right now.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we can get better at, you know, having more space between the thoughts that we're trying to avoid.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea that like the things that are in our lives are never gonna pop into our our heads at the you know, a suboptimal moment is just not realistic.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned that your identity as an attorney used to be, you know, just an enormous part of your you know, you know, your sense of who you are.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: How how is that for you now?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um it's interesting because um, you know, you mentioned I I I moved to Pierford um earlier this year, and it is um I'm fully remote now, so I'm home.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I what I've recognized over the last couple months is like there's no the it feels like there's no real boundaries um between work, between community building, and between my family and like my personal time.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it all kind of blends together.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm doing a client call and then I'm responding to somebody in the DEDS community, or I'm or my kids get home from school and I'm seeing how their day went.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it is blending together more, and it's more, you know, in a way that's tough, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like maybe I have some distractions that I need to like be intentional about blocking time for, or being, you know, I don't know, more intentional about how I use that time, but in a way, it also is like it's been really good for me.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really good to know that like I'm a unified person, like that these are all things I've I prioritize.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're all things that are important to me.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: My career is important, my community is important, my family's really important, um, and my own personal health and and wellness are important.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, these are all like I'm not I'm not like Matt, the lawyer when I'm at work.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm still the dad, I'm still the husband, I'm still the community builder.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's it's in a way it's been really nice because I feel like more, I don't I don't know what the word is.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've been trying to like figure out for me, I feel more like cohesive than I don't feel like I'm one person in this setting and one person in this setting.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's challenges to that too, but there's uh for me a lot of benefit.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned that you know, uh when you started to understand that you're bringing so much of your work home that your wife had shared that she felt like a single mom, and so you started to make some adjustments and you you kind of prefaced your statement with, you know, I'm still good at what I do, I'm still a good lawyer, I still really care.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Was there a part of you when you started making these adjustments that worried like, will my colleagues not think that I am, you know, working hard enough?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, did you have those kinds of fears and sense of guilt?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I see you nodding.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think um and I think it's something you know we talk about in the community too.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I like I I think there is still like kind of a a false mindset, not among everybody, but among certain people, that if if you are somebody that prioritizes family, you are less committed to your job or you're less committed to work.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something moms have struggled with, frankly, for a lot longer than dads, in part because dads want to be more involved today than probably ever before.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think dads are starting to feel the same pressure of, well, if I want to leave early for a soccer game or I want to be at a parent-teacher conference, are people going to say, you know, maybe they're not as committed as they they should be, or you know, I want to take more than a week or two of leave after the birth of my baby.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, things things like, well, why does he need two more than two weeks of leave?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't have a baby.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he doesn't need the recovery time.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, I think those are the things that go through your head as a dad.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so yeah, a hundred percent.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's I think that's true.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, I I I want my clients to know I'm super responsive.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm You know, even if I'm at soccer practice, I've got a phone.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: We all have phones that tether us to work and it beeps, and I get an email, I'm gonna respond and say, hey, I'm at soccer practice, I'll get on this right away when I get back.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so we're we have life, everybody has lives outside of whatever they do for work.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't I think I think it's possible to be a really, really good lawyer and be a really good parent at the same time.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I want I wish I could shed some of that, but I think I think there's still um people that that have their whole identity in their job that probably don't feel the same way about that as I do.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's that I think earlier you said, like, I do you feel like when you started your community, like you were the only one?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did 100%.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I actually told my wife, I was like, I don't know if this is ever gonna be more than like five or ten guys sitting around a Zoom talking about being good dads, but like if that's all it is, like awesome.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like that would be cool to meet five or ten other guys like myself.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's bit it's more than that now.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if you know, that was my mentality going in, is like, I don't know if I'm the only one out there.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's it it turns out I'm not.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it definitely turns out you're not.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I had a a similar kind of feeling when when I started posting on LinkedIn, I started posting about, hey, I'm a lawyer with a really complex health situation.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, my mindset was I'm sure I'm the only lawyer in the world with health challenges.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I was born with some of them.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was I've had a really complex, you know, health history, but no one ever talked about this stuff.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, it's just me, but what if there's one person who needs to hear that they can do this?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember just being lowered at the volume of comments and DMs that I got from that first post, which I, you know, was determined to do, you know, once once I decided, I was like, here we go, this might be career suicide, but I'm doing it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I I realized like you did, oh, it's just it's actually not just me.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: How shocking.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: So what led you to decide, oh, we need this community where I'm I'm gonna create do you call it dad esque or dad-esque?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I usually call it dad-esque, like colloquially.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: So where did it come from?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, and before I do that, one your your comment there about the the health thing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I do have Crohn's.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I posted about it one time.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I was in the hospital for about 10 days with a flare-up one time.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'd lost 40 pounds in a month.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, everybody at work's like, what diet plan are you on?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want this.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, you don't have crumbs.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: You don't.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: You do not want this.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um I posted about that experience, and particularly what struck me was my my son, he would come up the elevator to visit me at the hospital, and he'd tell people in the elevator, my daddy has Crohn's and he's in the hospital.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that like really was tough for me.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I I did a blog post about it.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I posted about it on LinkedIn.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but afterwards, I had a lawyer DM me, um, a lawyer dad, who was like, I'm I'm in remission now.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on a medication that helps.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in remission and I feel good.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, I'm in that stage you were in where I'm trying to figure out what medication is right, I'm trying to figure out my my health situation.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know any other lawyers that had Crohn's, so I really appreciate you posting it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, man, like that one post like was so worthwhile to like let that one person know, like you're not alone.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um it does.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: It makes I don't know how, you know, well, I'll I'll ask you, you know, I so for me, it was really terrifying to do that first post.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like I felt so vulnerable at that point in my career.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was super self-conscious about myself in a whole bunch of ways.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I just was tired of feeling like I had to keep parts of myself in boxes, like you described, like you used to feel like that, you know, this is my I'm at work self and this is my I'm with my family self.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I I don't like that feeling.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just me.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's not like I was looking to walk into every room and say, like, hey, let's talk about me before we talk about work.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to be myself.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I did post and I got the response that I got, I was like, oh, okay, I'll keep going because it sounds like it sounds like quite a few people needed to hear this.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And now it's not scary at all to post about those things that used to feel so vulnerable.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and now people show up this way, and we talk about it like it's normal because it actually is.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it was, I mean, like I so back to your other question, starting the community, because it leads into that discussion too, was starting the community was um really, I I think I was looking for something that I could do that would would have more impact than just the practice of law.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love community.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was an RA in college.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and I lead a group at our church um for married couples with kids.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've been doing community building for a long time in my mind.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um I had more and more law dads that were coming to me um and saying things like, How do you have four kids and you're a partner at this big firm?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make that work?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've got, you know, one was like I've got a kid and I'm in law school and I want to have more kids.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had people saying things like, I don't know if I want to have kids or be a partner.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you don't have to choose, like you can do both.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it was a like a confluence of that.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I had one guy that had his first baby, and he was like, he he emailed me afterwards and was like, dude, the things you've talked to me about about being a dad and a lawyer, like I still think about those things like six months into being a dad.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I was like, oh, there's there are these people, I just need to find them.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I I decided in December 2024, I was like, I want to first it was I was looking for resources for a friend of mine who asked me those questions and I didn't find anything.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's a lot of mom stuff out there as there should be, and but there's less dad stuff, and there was nothing specific for lawyer dads.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that part is important because I have a lot of friends who are dads who don't fully understand the stress of being a lawyer.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: They have their own work stress that I don't fully understand.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: We can relate on the dad piece, but we can't necessarily relate the same way on the work stuff.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so that part, like bringing those two worlds together, was important to me.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Decided to found the community.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: The best decision I've made so far is that I set myself a deadline.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, January 1, I'm launching this.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it was December 17th, I posted on the LinkedIn for the first time on creating a community for lawyer deads of 2024.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like two weeks out, and I hadn't even started building it yet.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was just like, I'm gonna do this in two weeks.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I signed up for Mighty Networks, created a created like four spaces, did a little beta test with a couple guys at my firm that were um willing to help me make sure it worked.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we launched January 1 of 2025.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that um, you know, there was there was a lot of interest at first, but to your question about that, like feeling vulnerable, like being okay with feeling vulnerable, for the first 11 months, 10 months of Dadesk, I posted almost exclusively from the company page on LinkedIn, not from my personal page.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and part of that was I was like, I I even before I started it, in December, I had a conversation with a law mom at my old firm.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I said, Look, I'm thinking about starting this dad community.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want it to come across as like a boys' club.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want it to like, it's not about it's certainly not toxic masculinity.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a group, it's a group of guys that want to like I I want I'm envisioning this group of people that are gonna connect, support each other.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's like, I know you.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I know you're gonna do this the right way.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: So like that that was comforting, and I I addressed even I have an FAQ on the website that's like, why is this for law dads?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't non-lawyers and moms participate, etc.?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think that that relation that that's that's what brings people together is when they can relate.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I it wasn't until November of 2025 that I started posting from my personal page um about the community, and that's really when it took off.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so hard to grow a company page on LinkedIn.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um so and and it was weird because I was like posting about my kids from like the Dadesque page, and I'm like, I'm not Dadesque, I'm just the host.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh November I was like, I need to start talking about this stuff openly, but that that's how long it took me.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing that.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: It it's yes, indeed, it it's hard to grow a LinkedIn company page.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're just not as you know, they're just not as sticky, but also you're building a community.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: People want to know you, who's the person behind this?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: And your real story is the reason people are interested.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you at first were like, maybe this will help a couple of people and it'll be, you know, maybe five of us.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: And now you're inching up toward a thousand, which is amazing.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so I know the the thousand-ish number, because I I know that this is also coming toward you've got a summit coming up um in January, which I want to hear about.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: What is this summit and what are you excited about with it?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that um so uh last January, January 2026, we did our first virtual summit.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And my idea was I wanted to uh the community's primary objective is give lawyer dads a space to connect and just know that they're not alone.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, our tagline is you don't have to do law or fatherhood alone.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's very intentional.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's also very intentional dad-esque, not lawyer dad.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the dad comes first.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so that all of that has been very intentional about how I want to build this community.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: But my number two goal is I want to connect dads in the community to resources because my community members are very busy.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's why they're in the community.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a lawyer, I'm a dad, I'm I don't have time for myself.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have time to go out and find resources, and so part of my mission is I want to connect them to resources.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: So last January I did our first summit um and we did a two-day event.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was three hours each day.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: We had eight speakers across the two days.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was fantastic.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: We had 65 people show up or register for the event.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like I we were on the Zoom and people were in the chat, they were on camera, they were engaged, they were in the chat.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: The chat was moving so quickly.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: The speakers were like, I'd like to answer questions, but I can't keep up with the chat and talk to you at the same time.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's how like fast it was moving.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was awesome because I've been to plenty of CLEs where like, you know, people are I I'm on my laptop like sending emails, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and you're half listening to the speaker, that's not how the summit was.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the first year was awesome.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: This year I was like, I want to do it bigger, better.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I put out a call for speakers in August, um, and I was overwhelmed.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: I like last year we had nine submissions, we had eight speakers.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this year we had over 50 submissions, and I was like, what do I do with all these amazing proposals?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I actually posted about it this morning.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, about the the hardest part has been like I had to send rejection emails and I hated it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I like that was I don't like saying no in general, and then like telling people like I'm sorry, but like your presentation, we didn't have space for it, was was really tough.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I like I said I clicked send really quick and then I went and had dinner with my family.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: But and these are the best problems to have.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this shows you in case you still had any doubt, which I hope you don't have, of the value that you're offering and how much people want to be part of it.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's something different that is so clearly needed.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: How when did you start to really understand?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that like this is something, and I'm I'm like I know what I'm doing.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh some point last year, probably I I realized it wasn't like a hobby.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a thing that was gonna be like a year and go away.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: There were guys that were got involved and were as invested as I was.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard, by the way.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: That building a community is really tough, and it's an emotional roller coaster.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like for the first, I'd say three or four months, I would post every day in the chat.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And like I had one or two friends that would at that point Mighty Networks didn't have emoji reactions, so they would reply and do like a thumbs up emoji in their reply, and that was all of it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like for the first, so like there's guys that joined early on that like all they saw was like me posting into the void, um, and it took that consistency over time, but then like somebody would jump in and they would post something.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we had a member the other day, this is one of my favorite posts of all time in the community who posted he accidentally wore his wife's jeans to work.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he took he took a picture and shared it with us, and I was like, that is the most fantastic post I've seen in this community so far.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely top ten.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that that literally just happened this week, and I was like, that's what this is about.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's about guys just feeling comfortable, feeling safe, um sharing with other guys things that they can relate to, is just fantastic.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that that when I think there was a point when somebody posted and said, My wife just had a miscarriage, and guys jumped in and said, I've been through that.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you need to talk, let me know.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And there was another post that sticks out in my mind where a guy was like, My baby has been um was doing really well sleeping, and then we were in teething, and now we're in sleep regression, and I'm concerned I'm not competent at work, like I'm not providing good service to my clients because I'm so tired.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also like he said, I'm getting frustrated and feeling resentment towards my wife and my baby, um, and I I don't know what to do with all this.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I I loved it because one of the things that's been tough for me is guys aren't always natural sharers.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're not, I'm an open book, I share almost anything.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes I'm like ask my wife, like, can I share this before I share it?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um but like I'm an open book, but most guys aren't that way.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when a guy posts that, what what I do what I what I did have seen is like other guys are very eager to jump in with their suggestions and their you know solutions to whatever issue somebody in the community is facing.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that too.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I I really value those guys that are willing to like share.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that to your point about like sharing on publicly online, I want to see, and I think I have seen more guys like posting you know the baby announcement pictures, the things about taking their kids or coaching football or soccer or whatever, like being okay with sharing that publicly because the more we talk about these things, the more it gets normalized, and we don't have these feelings of, am I less committed?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like this is okay, this is part of life.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: You have young kids, like it's oh it's okay, and it's it's actually a good thing that you want to be there with them.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think some point uh over the last year, and I and I I still step back and I'm like it's in its infancy.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: I said this to somebody the other day that I was chatting with about the community, and I was like, it's hard for me because I'm like, we're we are almost at a thousand members, we're at 8 30 something right now, and I set an ambitious goal.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I told you I was goal-oriented.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like 13 a week between now and the summit.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm actually not sure we'll get there, but who knows?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I will try to help you.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: I set a I set an ambitious goal to get to a thousand before the summit in January, and um but it's still in its infancy.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're still like we're just launching local chapters tomorrow.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm flying up to New York City for the day to go to our first local New York City meetup.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we have 60-something members in New York.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so like a month ago I launched local chapters.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: If your city has five plus members, like I wanted to create that space for people to meet meet up in person.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we're still growing.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard, it's like it's I have this duel, like I it's going so well and it's awesome, but it's also like I have to remind myself, like, we're less than two years in.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, and I'm an impatient person.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I want it to be events all over the country all the time, and it's just growing.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to be patient and see it grow and temper my my inner, you know, perfectionist.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I can relate to so much of what you just said, and the and the the impatience part, which I certainly have when you have this, you know, fairly lofty goal and and just an awareness of like what this can be, and then to we have to recognize like reality.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like those are hard things to reconcile.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know you you um you hide you brought someone on so you could start delegating, which I know you were struggling with.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: So talk about bringing on some actual help so that you can achieve what you're looking to achieve, and the challenge of like learning how to delegate that with something that you're that's so personal for you.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I think there are things in my legal career have prepped me well for.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think about the impatience of I I'd love to see Dadesque.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's a group called Mothers Esquire that's fantastic.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: They've been around since 2013, 10,000 members.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think that esque reasonably will get there someday.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm not there, I'm two years in.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think it takes time to grow anything worth growing.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it is the same as a lawyer.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I was you know a third-year associate, I'm like, I want a million-dollar book of business.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that takes time.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta plant a lot of seeds, you gotta just be consistent in your marketing and your business development efforts.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I like being a lawyer has trained me well to do this.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and similarly with delegation, you know, I am the perfectionist, I'm the guy, you know, that I write the brief the way I want it written, and it's and it it took it was a struggle as a lawyer from that senior associate, junior partner role where I started, you know, having to supervise associate work, and it would write something, and it took me years to get to where I wasn't just rewriting it, um, to where I was like, I'd sit down and be like, is this what it needs to be to get the desired outcome?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it took me years and it was really tough.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that's the hardest part of being a lawyer if you're at a firm, is like that transitional phase.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the the same thing happened with my community, where this community is my baby.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that like I've spent a lot of time, a lot of effort on.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and handing over any part of it to anyone else was really, really challenging for me.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: But um I realized like I'm not gonna be able to grow it past what it is if I don't get some help.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: So like the first thing I did was hire a bookkeeper because like the administrative side um was just too much for me.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And like my accountant was like, I need a profit and loss statement.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't have QuickBooks, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I had to hire a bookkeeper, and she's doing a fantastic job.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: She does like pester me.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have to like, she's like, I need your statements for like the last three months you're supposed to send me.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm still like working with her to get her stuff.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I hired a virtual assistant earlier this year because I knew that there were day-to-day tasks I was doing.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do a daily poll for the people in the community, Monday through Friday.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: We have a poll.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: It spurs a lot of great conversation in the chat for the poll.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I do a dadvice quick hit where I pull an article in and I do like a three-minute read summary, and it's got an action item.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's got like here's what you should get from this article, here's something you can try at home to do this or at work to, you know, and each day's themed.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: We have like law practice, we have um marriage, we have dad, we have health and wellness.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So they get something every day, and it's in our dad law library.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: So those are things though that were, you know, truthfully as me like running Chat GPT prompts or clog prompts and then copy pasting things into the community.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I'm spending two or three hours a week on this where I need to focus my attention on like planning the best next summit, right?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: And doing growing our trusted provider network and figuring out how to get guys in the community.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: So like I've reached out, I was in a community for LinkedIn writing, um, learning how to do LinkedIn better.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, hey, does anybody know a virtual assistant?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really want to, yeah.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can get virtual assistants for like$5 an hour in the Philippines at this point.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that was I I really wanted somebody that was invested, not just like anyone, but somebody that's invested in the mission of what I was building.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy, James, reached out.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, James was born with congenital muscular dystrophy.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's been in a wheelchair his whole life.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he's a super smart guy.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's like got a master's in counseling.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he was like, I'll do it.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, dude, you are way overqualified for this.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I don't know, I don't know if you this is that you're gonna get bored.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, No, I really want to, I really want to help.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I need I need some extra stuff on the side, so be happy to help.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he's been so good.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it and the timing was perfect because I was that was as I was going into this job transition where when I transitioned firms, I've been at my old firm 15 years, I've joined this new firm, and I knew there would be time, like you gotta send out letters to clients and call people and and learn new systems and all that stuff.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that would be there.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: What I didn't anticipate was the mental bandwidth it would take for months of like adjusting to this new life I have now.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um somebody, the guy that recruited me said, I I I think this firm is life-changing.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I'm overselling it.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: I actually told him afterwards, I think you're underselling it a little bit, um, because it truly is.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: But like that mental bandwidth, so having that virtual assistant step in and he kept the he kept the lights on for like three or four months where I wasn't able to do the things I normally do.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't able to engage with every comment in the community, I wasn't able to do some of the things I've normally been doing in the community.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: He kept it running um to a point where I could jump back in late summer and say, okay, now we're ready to really take this to the next level.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm i it was tough to do.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and like even training him was a little t you know, you're like, oh, I gotta spend an hour or two training him, but that hour two, I would take I would take it every day over the Countless hours he saved me over the last six, eight months he's been doing this.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you made a decision that joining this community is free.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in spite of every person telling me no.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Usually when people tell me I'm doing something wrong, I'm more committed to doing it the way I want to do it.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: So like when I started the community, everybody's like, you can't grow a company page on LinkedIn, it's impossible.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, tell me no.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me again, and let me show you.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like, honestly, like the company page is is we've got over 3,000 followers.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I had posts that would get a few thousand impressions when I talked about my kids.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for a company page early stages, it actually was pretty good.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: But they were they were right ultimately about the company page.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I get so much more reach for my personal page.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a with the with the membership.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I joined Mighty Networks.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: They tell you the average community is$49 a month.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody should do a paid community, people are more engaged when it's paid, blah, blah, blah.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm not saying they're wrong.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of that stuff can be true.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I started Dead S with a mission to connect as many dads to provide this space.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And at no point do I want a dad to say, you know, that sounds kind of cool, and maybe I could use it, but it's not quite worth the$49.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Most of my members could easily pay$50 a month to be part of my community.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: They, you know, that for me would be like go to Starbucks one less day a week this month, and I would pay for the community.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I really am committed to, and I, you know, again, I've I've over the last two years I've hired business coaches that I've worked with.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've been told repeatedly you should have a paid membership.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did, I do have like an optional um supporting membership and a and a pro membership that I'm gonna build out next year where guys want to go deeper and want to do more intentional stuff.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm gonna build out that eventually.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, it's mission-based.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: It is, you know, I don't want anyone to not there if there were 10 lawyer dad communities, maybe I would be paid.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm the only one that is the only one that exists.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't want guys to have not have access to resources, not have access to community because they don't see the value in joining a paid community.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was an intentional choice.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I knew it going in.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I you know, my wife after a year was like, Are you gonna make any money doing this?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're spending a lot of money and you're spending a lot of time.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do um, I created instead something I've called the trusted provider network.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I have um last year when I was doing the summit, I was looking for sponsors for my summit, and one of them was a financial planner I met on LinkedIn, and he said, I'd love to sponsor your summit, but I'd rather sponsor you for a year.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what does that look like to you?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, it looks like me writing you a check for a sponsorship.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I mean, I I know what the words mean, but like, what do you get for that?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is that?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let me think about.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: I said, let me think about it.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: And everything I do with the community is super intentional.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually spent a month or two like thinking about what is what does that look like?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of access does he get?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be mindful of he's not a lawyer dad, so our trusted provider space in the community is limited to just that space.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have access to the dad chat because I want that to be a free discussion and not feel like there's people in there that aren't able to relate to these things.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I was very intentional about how I built it, but we now have a space where he can come in, he can interact, he can post educational materials, he can run events, um, and he can go on LinkedIn and say, I am Dad-Esque trusted financial provider.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's how I'm kind of monetizing the community, really, is through through sponsorships of people who want access to the community members.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I view it as a win for everybody.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's the best way to do it because they win, they get access to a community.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: My members win because they're getting educational materials and resources, and knowing that they've got vetted people that you know we've been through an application process.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked to them, I make sure they are people who are comfortable working with and have experience working with lawyer parents, and um, and I I win by my wife is like, oh, we're actually making all the money's been reinvested in the community, so we're not making any money, but at least there's money coming in and it's get it's paying for the stuff instead of coming out of our bank account.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been it's been um really a a good ad to the community.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: But that that is you know uh nothing I do in the community I want to be frivolous.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want it to all be really well thought out and intentional.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned some of the kind of examples of stories and things that people share inside the community, and a lot of it is what they're struggling with, and the fact that they feel like they have a space to share that is amazing.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel like the community is helping dads show up better as dads?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you feel like it's helping dads show up better at work with their practice?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that I so that's a really good question.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: That it actually feeds into like the monetization too.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, when people join the community, I it's impossible for me to say if you if you join dad ask, you'll be 40% better at being a dad by three months from now.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not doing a fitness course, I'm not doing that.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing a community that is really like if you you know, somebody just posted actually in the community and said, I I've been a part of this for a few months now, and I found that like I get out of it what I put into it.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if I I'm here daily, I'm posting, I'm getting more out of it.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: From for me, what I can say is it's a good reminder every day.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: When I see a dad post something about like I'm doing this with my kids, it's a good reminder.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I want to focus on too.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think is from the dad side, it is seeing that constant encouragement, knowing that like I post on those dadvice quick hits where it's like, here's an article, here's how you can improve.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Almost every day I'm posting this is something I need to work on.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I make it very clear to all the members, I'm not the creator of Dead S because I've figured it out.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm on the journey with you.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the path.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm learning.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I really value when guys that have adult kids join because I'm like, I'm about to have a teenager and I have no idea what I'm doing.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: So please help me figure that out.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm I'm on the path with these guys.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think it helps to know there's other people out there that prioritize these things.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um we try to do um some of our in the summit coming up, and by the way, I forgot to mention earlier, the summit is open to everybody.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: The community's lawyer dads, the summit, anybody can attend the summit.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna post about this this week.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, we have 41 speakers in 28 sessions.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Almost a third of our speakers are women.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have 13 um women speaking.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have the creator of Mother's Esquire, we have somebody that's gonna talk about the invisible um domestic load that moms still disproportionately carry.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that's important for the guys in my community to hear.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like they they say I want to be more helpful at home, but a lot of them don't realize like all the things that aren't seen.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like I make lunches for my kids, so I'm helping, but I'm not really because I'm not thinking about you know what what groceries we need to have, what what my kids' favorite snacks are.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's just they are magically appears in my pantry and I make the lunch.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm only doing like 5% of the work there.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: So like that's the stuff I'm excited for guys to see on the dad side.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: On the law side, you know, we're trying to do some CLE credit for this conference coming up.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm trying to bring in speakers that are going to help them, mostly in the mental wellness space, like the the part about burnout, the part about this is a stressful profession.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we've had a lot of speakers come in and talk about how do we manage that stress, um, whether that's through you know meditation, whether that's through just you know exercise, making sure we're taking care of our bodies, like all these different pieces to how do I how do I show up better at work?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um we even had we had a legal writing panel at our last summit.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, like in all the different ways, I it it's really that part is a little bit like I meet somebody on LinkedIn and they're like, This is what I do.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, cool, do you want to come speak to our community?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just connected with a guy who helps men with pornography addiction.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I reached out to him and I'm like, will you come speak to our community?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think that would be an awesome topic for our community.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's how it's come together.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if I can find a speaker that's like, I'm really good at coaching attorneys on um mental health, then that's somebody I want to come speak and offer that resource to people in the community who might need it.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's it is on both sides.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to measure that that, but as I see guys continue to show up, we have, I think we're up to three or four people, including myself, who have a 365-day streak that are in that community every day.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: We've got hundreds of people that have a week or two week streaks in the community.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are guys showing up in that community every day that are that are getting something out of it.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: If not just, you know, to me, I have to remember the mission is connect, have relation, feel like reduce that sense of isolation that a lot of men struggle with.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: So even if it's just that, even if it's just like coming in and seeing a guy post a funny picture and like laughing for a minute, that's enough.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't have to be all these other things.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's enough for me to know that this is a success.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: If I can do that plus all these other things, great, because that's I'm the over I I I'll never not be an overachiever.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I get it.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: According to your identity.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned that the person who recruited you to um your firm now sold you saying it'll change your life, and now you feel like that's an understatement.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about that.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: How has it gone even beyond changing your life?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I um Pierford is a very different model.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, when um Joel Ferdinand and Michael Pearson started the firm, we just talked about this at our retreat a couple weeks ago.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: They they really sat down again intentionally and thought about how do we create the law firm of the future?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get rid of how do we create a really high-end law firm?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've got lawyers from most of the M Law 50 firms at our firm.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: These are top-notch lawyers.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how do we create that plus a firm that takes away all the stuff that is really stressful and not needed from like the traditional law firm model?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um they started with being very AI driven.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't have associate attorneys at our firm.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was at first, one of my first questions was like, Who drafts my briefs?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm a partner now and I don't remember how to write.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just revise other people's writing.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's somewhat true.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do like to write still.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I write a lot.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I I was like, I I haven't written a first draft of a motion in a long time.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, who does that?
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is Harvey AI.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Harvey AI is as good or better than any associate, including myself.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: When I was an associate, I put myself in that bucket.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not perfect.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: It still takes, you know, a lawyer's touch, still takes review.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have to review the citations, review the cases, but it's it gets that first draft done and it gets it done free for my clients instead of paying for an associate level attorney.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: For me, what you know has changed, I'm now work from home five days a week, and that that's a big difference for me.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: When my kids get home from school, instead of like taking a five or ten minute break to walk down the hall and chat with a colleague, I'm taking five or ten minutes to say hi to my kids, see how their day was, give them a hug.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Had to teach my nine-year-old that, you know, within the first couple weeks, he was like, Can we go play football in the yard?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, dude, it's 3:30.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Well, you said this new job, when we got home from school, you could play.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, he took it out of context a little bit there.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I've had to like, I've had to do some boundaries.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have like a little status light that tells them when I'm gonna call.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: My four-year-old walks up to the door all the time, and I have my headphones on most of the day listening to music, as you can see.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's like, Are you on a call, Daddy?
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she'll stand at the door and ask me this uh most days.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that has been a huge change for me.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um being at a firm that I don't have a billable hour expectation has been a really big change for me.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is a very entrepreneurial firm.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's um I have a lot of autonomy on how I do things, including how many hours I want to bill.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you know, if I have a week where I've got sick kids, then I can take that day and not worry about I'm falling behind some target that's been set for me.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can make it up if I need to to pay the bills.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, if I don't need to, I I get the client work done.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it allows me to focus on what I've always wanted to focus on is be doing really excellent work for my clients and not worried about am I on track to hit some hours expectation.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's a lot of things about it.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the compensation model is we we've eliminated a lot of overhead with having no offices, having um staff on kind of a per diem basis.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm not paying for support that I don't use.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that allows me to do what I I think most people should do is maximize their, you know, how much they take home per hour.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I can work less, make more, and do, you know, focus on my community building, focus on my family, focus on doing good work for my clients all at the same time, and have that cohesiveness that I that I felt like I was missing in part because of structure.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, it's that's the structure at any M-law, most M-Law 200 firms, is the same structure.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this firm is different in a way where I now have 300 law partners around the country that all, you know, when I meet them, we all have the same conversation of we had that same stress on us, and now we have this this firm where we can, you know, there's still busy weeks, there's still weeks you're busting and you're doing a lot of work, but it's because the clients need it, not because I'm trying to catch up.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it's just a different, uh, a different place.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the people, I I I can't tell you how fantastic the people have been.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I'm an extrovert, so that was one of my concerns going in.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna be in an office, I'm not gonna have people to talk to.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: I made it very intentional that when I started, I was gonna do two or three coffee chats a week with people at this firm, and I just emailed people, I'm like, hey, love to hear about your practice, love to meet you.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: And people are like, sure, let's do it.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: 30 minutes turns into an hour, we're chatting about everything about life, and I've just met some really, really cool people.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it is really it is really, you know, gone above and beyond my expectations.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to be part of the firm.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, my fear was going out on my own.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: I got four kids, um, I'm sole income in my household.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: My wife stays home with them and and manages her more than her fair share of the invisible load we talked about.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's allowed me to um to to go out and do what I love doing, um, but also have my other my other priorities too.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: So speaking of community and having more control over your time, we've got to get you off so you can go have lunch with a friend.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else that you want to share that we haven't covered?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean I I um you reminded me that I need to get more intentional about my meditation.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I did I did Headspace app.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: I uh like in college, I got really into like learning about Buddhism and meditation and um did a lot of meditation in college and then was doing Headspace, and it's something that's fallen off for me.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I I will say like I love that.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I do think when I meditate or pray or spend that time, it's it it's hard.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's a challenge for me, is being alone, being silent, being that's tough.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I like background noise.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the guy that studied at Starbucks, not in the library.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just like people around me.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's tough for me, but it's so good for me.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I love that you said that because even like coming out of this, I'm like, I didn't expect to come here today and like leave with like I'm I've now got a new challenge for myself, but I'm like, I gotta re-download Headspace or Calm or do one of these meditation apps to like force myself to do that every day because when I do that, um one of my favorite books is a book called Ruthless Elimination A Hurry, and it's it's a lot about slowing down our lives.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I read that book, I've read I've read it twice now.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: I probably need to read it about every six months.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's one of the things is like spending that time, and it's something falls by the wayside when you're as busy as I am, but when I do it, it makes the rest of the stuff easier.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for the reminder.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you need an accountability partner, you know where to find me.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having this conversation.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: I just I'm delighted to be able to be part of uh spreading the word around DAD ask.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's fantastic.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um and I'm delighted to know you.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're doing great well.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks so much.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, Ariel.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: You are very welcome.