Latest / Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time / The Thing About Pam Hupp & Russ Faria Part 1

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The Thing About Pam Hupp & Russ Faria Part 1 · Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time

0:01
Join former FBI Senior Forensic Examiners Becky Passmore and
0:05
Stacey Eldridge as they dig into the world of digital forensics
0:08
one bite at a time. Now leading their own consulting
0:11
firms and educating the next generation of cyber sleuths,
0:14
these bad ass babes of digital forensics bring sharp insight,
0:18
real world case experience, and a dose of humor to the bits and
0:21
bites that filled today's investigations.
0:23
From deep dives into business e-mail compromise and ransomware
0:26
attacks, Becky's specialty to cracking the complexities of
0:29
iPhone forensics, Stacy's obsession, this podcast delivers
0:33
insider knowledge for professionals, students, and
0:36
true crime techies alike. If you've ever wondered what
0:39
really happens when the digital trail is all that's left, TuneIn
0:42
and start parsing the truth. Hello and welcome back to
0:54
Parsing the Truth One Bite at a Time, where we cut through
0:56
digital noise to reveal how investigations really unfold.
1:01
I'm your host Stacey Eldridge and as always I'm joined by my
1:06
Co host Becky Passmore. In today's episode, we're
1:10
talking about the thing about Pam.
1:12
Well, hello, everyone. Yeah, Stacey, tell me a little
1:15
bit about this thing about Pam. Well, according to a Dateline
1:20
NBC, she's a woman that's as cagey as they come.
1:24
And this story is about the evil that smiles, that worms its way
1:30
into unsuspecting minds and kills.
1:33
This is about such a woman we have never seen.
1:37
Oh my gosh, we are talking about Pam Hupp.
1:39
She's been in the news off and on since 2011.
1:43
Not only has she been the focus of several Dateline NBC
1:47
episodes, my favorite, an entire Dateline NBC podcast series,
1:52
numerous other podcasts, and even Hulu has a series featuring
1:57
Renee Zellweger called The Thing About Pam.
2:00
Yes. And while we're going to focus
2:02
on the digital evidence in this case, we certainly have to get
2:06
everyone up to speed on what the case is involved.
2:10
And yes, I said case is plural. And at the end, we'll share some
2:14
recent news on the case, too. But this story begins days after
2:19
Christmas in 2011 with the brutal murder of Betsy Faria, A
2:24
terminally ill mother in Troy, MO.
2:26
And this is just outside of Saint Louis.
2:29
Her husband, Russ Faria, was convicted of her murder in
2:34
November 2013. And the man had a really good
2:37
alibi. We're talking receipts, video
2:40
footage and even cell phone tower data.
2:43
Yeah. Enter Pam Hub.
2:46
It sees seemingly devoted friend who is the last person to see
2:53
Betsy alive and shockingly named the sole beneficiary of Betsy's
2:58
life insurance policy just days before her death.
3:01
So in February of 2015, the Missouri Court of Appeals
3:05
ordered a new trial for Russ, her husband, due to the
3:10
previously suppressed evidence implicating Pam Hupp.
3:13
In November of 2015, Ruster's bench trial resulted in an
3:18
acquittal after having spent nearly 3 1/2 years in jail for a
3:23
crime he didn't commit. Now it doesn't end there.
3:26
In August 2016, Pam shoots and kills Louis Gumpenberger in her
3:32
home. The evidence doesn't support
3:35
herself defense claim and in June 2019, Pam entered an Alford
3:40
plea for this murder. She was sentenced to life in
3:43
prison without parole in August of 2019.
3:47
The investigation into Betsy's murder was recently reopened and
3:52
Pam was was charged with her murder in July 2021.
3:57
Jury selection is and jury selection is expected to begin
4:03
next summer in July, with a trial date set for August 2026.
4:08
Let's dig into that digital evidence.
4:10
In this case, police seized Pam's cell phone and later
4:15
returned it, and then the police viewed call logs on Betsy's
4:20
daughter's Leah's cell phone from her to Betsy, showing that
4:25
the unanswered calls were on the night of Betsy's murder.
4:30
The police seized from the fair Farah's home 2 cell phones,
4:35
assumingly one from Betsy and one from Russ, 4 laptops and
4:40
computers, 3 hard drives, a thumb drive, an iPod, two MP3
4:45
players and more than 200 CDRW and a Fujifilm camera.
4:52
We also know cell tower records were subpoenaed for both Russ
4:56
and Pam's phones. Records and we got some insider
5:00
knowledge and they said it's four laptops and then they said
5:03
computers. We were told it's probably like
5:05
about 10 different computers and laptops and in total.
5:08
So I mean there's a fair amount of potential digital evidence in
5:12
this case. And basically the way we're
5:14
going to go through this episode is we're going to be discussing
5:17
the digital evidence in the order in which it came up in
5:20
during the different interviews, depositions and trials.
5:25
Now on the day of the murder, the cell phone data does show
5:28
text between Betsy and Russ, the husband wife, discussing things
5:33
for the house and plans for the evening.
5:36
Russ was going to game night. Betsy had chemo and she had
5:40
shared that Pam Hemp wanted to bring her home.
5:43
Betsy stated and I quote, she offered and I accepted.
5:46
Betsy also called Russ at 5:00 PM to remind him about the ride
5:50
from Pam and that she had some good news to share when she got
5:54
home. Seems like pretty typical
5:56
husband and wife stuff to me. I.
5:59
Agree, but let's keep in mind there's some keywords from Betsy
6:04
about Pam regarding that ride home.
6:07
She offered and I accepted. Yeah, Russ left gaming night and
6:12
stopped at Arby's and ate in the car on the way home.
6:15
He also called Betsy, but she didn't answer.
6:18
He estimated he arrived home at around 9:45 PM and upon entering
6:24
the house, he spotted Betsy dead in front of the sofa.
6:28
It was a bloody scene. A knife was sticking out of her
6:31
neck. Was immediately called 911.
6:34
This 911 call would later be used against him in trial.
6:38
And now let's go backwards to the morning of the murder, Betsy
6:43
texted Pam. She said Bobby is going and I
6:47
want to spend someone on one, one time with her and this is at
6:51
10:35 AM in the morning and they're talking about Betsy's
6:55
chemo session. And then one minute later Pam
6:58
replied. Bummer.
6:59
However, Pam still showed up at Betsy's chemo session and then
7:04
at 3:46 PM, Betsy texted Russ that Pam would bring her home.
7:10
Pam says she drove back to Betsy's mom's around 5:15 PM and
7:16
didn't leave there with Betsy until about 6:00 PM.
7:20
Pam called her husband when she arrived at Betsy's house and
7:24
left a voicemail with Betsy, also leaving a holiday greeting
7:29
because remember, this is around Christmas time.
7:31
And then from there, Pam gives several different versions of
7:35
what happened that night, where her actions, times and the calls
7:40
all varied. So that's why the cell phone
7:43
evidence becomes so important in this case.
7:46
And that's because the cell phones will log the times of
7:49
those calls, those text messages, and even missed calls.
7:53
But you have to know how to read and analyze those logs.
7:57
As you will later see, in this case, any cell phone tower or
8:00
phone tower data can provide clues to the location of a cell
8:04
phone. And notice I said location of
8:06
the cell phone. You as the examiner have to do
8:09
additional work to tie a person to the cell.
8:13
Phone. Yeah, that's right.
8:14
So Pam's cell phone revealed a call to her husband at 7 O 4:00
8:18
PM, and then another call was registered at 7:27 PM to Betsy,
8:24
which would have been the call Pam said she made when she
8:27
arrived at home. But then her story changed to
8:31
either being close to home or on the road.
8:34
Pam then called Betsy's mom at 8:52 PM asking her to check on
8:40
Betsy since she hadn't heard back.
8:42
And so here we have three good time stamps of seven O 4 PM,
8:46
7:27 PM and 8:00, 52 PM. Pam had also shared during
8:51
various police interviews that when she and Betsy were at the
8:55
Tennis Club the week before, Betsy had said that she had
8:59
wrote a message to Pam and that she had shared something really
9:03
disturbing that Russ had said to her in that message.
9:07
But Betsy never sent it. But it was on her computer in
9:11
some form. And Pam was saying that Betsy
9:14
couldn't send it because Russ of it going through her emails and
9:18
she couldn't print it because the printer was in Russ's Home
9:21
Office. And The funny thing is, over
9:24
time, Pam basically shared all of the contents of that letter
9:28
during her various interviews and mentioned several times how
9:32
the police needed to find that. Letter So the So the police
9:36
returned to Pam's house later on the 28th and this time asked for
9:41
more details about where she had been when she called Betsy at
9:47
7:27 PM. This time the answer was 10 or
9:51
15 minutes after leaving Betsy's.
9:54
Now this is where you could see cell phone tower data to confirm
9:58
that Pam was on the road headed towards her house.
10:02
Yeah, so that's if you have the cell phone tower records, you
10:04
know, take a minute and and double check that information.
10:07
Where does it say she is at that point in time?
10:10
And I'm mentioning this because this is going to come into play
10:12
as her story changes over time. Now, during the 4th visit to
10:17
Pam's house from law enforcement, and this is now
10:20
Thursday evening, two days after the murder, the police speak
10:24
with Mark. Pam's husband.
10:26
Mark played them a voicemail from Pam with Betsy leaving that
10:30
holiday greeting as well. The police failed to seize this
10:33
phone and then Mark, the husband later deleted that voicemail
10:38
during the same interview. They didn't ask him what time
10:41
Pam had arrived home that evening.
10:44
They didn't ask what she was wearing, and they didn't ask if
10:47
Pam said anything after she finally returned home that
10:50
night. Yeah.
10:50
All missteps there, Russ stated, and his gaming friends
10:54
corroborated that he was with them 25 miles away from the
10:59
Fiera home from 6:00 to 9:00 PM. Additionally, the police
11:05
verified everything Russ said he had done to and from the game
11:09
night, and they spotted him on a video.
11:11
While the video camera at Arby's was broken, the bag and receipt
11:15
were found in rest his car. Although the police felt he
11:19
should have arrived home at 9:30 one 9 minutes before the 911
11:25
call, now the police think that he should have arrived home even
11:28
sooner. Again, this is where Cell Phone
11:31
Tower Records can confirm or refute Russ's provided timeline.
11:37
Betsy had a daughter, Leah. The police checked Leah's phone
11:41
and confirmed she called Betsy at 7:21 PM, 7/20, 6:00 PM and
11:46
7:30 PM, and all three calls went unanswered.
11:51
Here they're visually looking at the phone logs directly on the
11:54
phone. So just like you would as a
11:56
person using your own phone to see what calls you missed and
11:59
who you called someone last, that sort of thing.
12:02
So it's important to know what the symbols on that phone mean
12:06
for missed versus unanswered, versus checking your voicemail,
12:10
etcetera. And that's important because
12:12
this was all the different types of information about those phone
12:15
calls that was introduced during the trial.
12:17
Exactly. So during the trial, the defense
12:20
tried to introduce that Pam's seven O 4 and 7:27 PM calls were
12:27
made from the same cell phone tower.
12:30
The judge didn't let it in since it was related to suggesting
12:35
suggesting that Pam committed the murder, which had already
12:38
been blocked and now this would be.
12:42
This would have been interesting if it had been admitted because
12:45
if Pam's phone was using the same cell phone tower at 7 O
12:50
4:00 PM and 7:27 PM, it could mean that she wasn't on the road
12:57
at 7:27 PM as she claimed. So you would need to do some
13:01
analysis to determine what approximate reach of the tower
13:05
was. There are people that specialize
13:08
in this. In fact, the FBI has a team and
13:11
that team goes through extensive training to be able to
13:15
triangulate and place a cell phone in a certain area based on
13:22
it's ping to the towers. So was it possible for Pam to be
13:26
10 to 15 minutes away from the fair house and still be
13:31
connected to the same cell tower that she used when she called
13:36
her husband at 7 O 4:00 PM? Big question there.
13:40
The defense did introduce that Russ's cell phone tower pings
13:45
indicate that the earliest he could have arrived home was 9:38
13:51
PM. Now during the trial in the
13:53
trial, the defense is focusing hard on that 7:27 PM phone call,
13:58
especially with the time of death being placed between 7:00
14:02
and 7:20 PM. The defense asked Pam about her
14:06
statements about not going into the house and then later telling
14:10
police she went into the house and into the bedroom.
14:13
And then Pam says she doesn't remember telling Betsy's mom she
14:17
didn't go in. She also started backpedaling on
14:20
saying she called Betsy at 7:27 PM to say home.
14:24
She did agree that it would be impossible to be home by 7:27 PM
14:30
since they live 23 miles part at least and that's based on the
14:34
distance between the towns and she said that at later she's
14:39
claiming that she calls from the Interstate and says I'm home,
14:43
which means I'm on my way home and that seems crystal clear to
14:48
me. Exactly.
14:49
Yeah. So a member of the Major Case
14:52
Squads Technical Operations group testified his analysis of
14:57
the phone showed that Russ called his mother at 5:22 PM and
15:02
then and there was a call from Betsy's mom at 8:57 PM that went
15:07
to voicemail. When asked if Russ listened to
15:10
that voicemail, the witness said yes.
15:13
A call to the number listed as voicemail took place 30 seconds
15:17
later. On cross, he later admitted that
15:19
Betsy's mom's missed call would still be connected to the
15:24
voicemail 30 seconds later and he wouldn't be able to retrieve
15:29
it yet. In the end, there was no
15:30
evidence that Russ listened to that that voicemail when it's.
15:33
Time for the defense to make their case.
15:35
They call Greg Chatten to the stand.
15:38
He's a digital forensics expert with a specialty in cellular
15:41
mapping and data forensics that requires a license that's issued
15:46
by the Missouri Board of Professional Regulations.
15:50
So he does something very similar to what that FBI team
15:54
does that Becky was talking about.
15:56
He's just not in law enforcement, but he does have
16:00
the credentials and that certification to support that.
16:03
He would be an expert in this in court.
16:05
Fortunately, Greg passed away last year in 2024, so we're not
16:09
able to speak with him about his testimony.
16:12
However, we have his testimony and during that testimony, Greg
16:16
explains that the data plotted on the map and he's showing it
16:20
to the jury and he indicated that at five O 7 and five O 8
16:25
and 5:10 PM, Russ's phone was in the sector that included his
16:30
home. Then later at five, 11513 and
16:34
5:22 PM, it was in the same sector as the Conoco service
16:40
station and we still have more good cell phone data that he
16:44
talks about. At 5:50 PM the phone was in the
16:47
area close to Lake Saint Louis and O'Fallon and at 7:50 PM it
16:52
was in the area of the game night house.
16:55
Finally, at 9:25 PM, it was at least 10 miles away from Russ's
17:00
home. And then the phone finally
17:02
arrived back in the area of the house at 9:37 PM.
17:07
And it sounds like Greg did a lot of work based on the
17:10
subpoena data that they received back from Russ's cellular
17:14
provider, combining it with the coverage area for each cell
17:19
phone tower. And he's lining it up with his
17:23
alibi. And so, you know, we didn't go
17:26
into his alibi, but Russ gave a lot of information.
17:28
He said, you know, I went here, here and here on my way to game
17:31
night. And then after game night, you
17:33
know, I left about this time. I stopped at Arby's.
17:35
And so they have of all of this video, the video lines up with
17:40
Russ's alibi and then further, Greg has the cell phone tower
17:44
data that further lines up with Russ's alibi.
17:48
And so it's very powerful to be able to have that sort of
17:51
information corroborated. I mean, that's the thing we want
17:54
to do. If we can have two things match
17:56
up from different sources, that's really supposed to be a
18:00
slam dunk. However, the defense was not
18:03
allowed to share any of Pam's cell phone data to the jury
18:08
during the trial. And I say they weren't allowed
18:11
to share it to the jury because there was some discussion,
18:15
basically a vaudeer that went on during the trial, but the jury
18:19
was dismissed. So they didn't get to hear it.
18:22
But it's out an open court and that's how we know that it
18:25
exists. Cuz even if the jury's not in
18:27
the room, the transcriptionist is still typing.
18:31
That's everything that's being said when you know the mics are
18:34
on in the courtroom. That's right.
18:35
Sadly, sidebars are not transcribed sometimes.
18:40
I'd like to know what the heck is going on in the sidebar.
18:42
Right, right, right. Exactly.
18:44
You want to know what's being said over there?
18:47
Yeah. This is great data.
18:48
So because this is such good data, not only do they have Russ
18:53
on the video and Arby's receipt that matches up, they have that
18:58
cell phone tower data that's corroborating his timeline and
19:02
the video. So later, while the prosecution
19:05
asked Greg if he only testifies for the defense, he replied yes
19:10
because the police and prosecutors have state labs that
19:13
did such work for them. He also was asked why he
19:17
wouldn't discuss his testimony with the prosecution during the
19:21
lunch break. He said he thought she was
19:23
getting into the defense trial strategy and that it would be
19:27
inappropriate. I.
19:28
Find that kind of odd myself, that the prosecutor would have
19:31
come up to a defense witness and started asking about rules.
19:36
Yeah, I don't know why even had in a recent trial, the
19:39
prosecuting attorney call me, but he just called me out of out
19:43
of the blue. It's a phone call, right?
19:45
And it's a person saying a name and that they're a prosecutor or
19:48
whatever. And he was like, what are you
19:50
going to testify about? And I was like the cell phone,
19:54
you know, I kind of answered real generically because of
19:56
course, I'm not sure like who this is and.
20:00
You know, I hadn't received a warning call that he was going
20:03
to be calling or anything like that.
20:06
And then my, you know, answers were just kind of like, oh,
20:08
well, we've not narrowed it down yet, you know, because again, I
20:12
wasn't sure. Like, it's just a phone call.
20:15
I'm not sure what I can and and cannot say.
20:18
Right. And I say against the rules, I
20:20
think it's more ethical, moral, like, you know, that the defense
20:24
has their strategies and their witnesses, then prosecution has
20:28
their strategies and their witnesses.
20:30
And trying to figure out what that is through a witness, I
20:33
would say is, you know, more of a, a moral or ethical standpoint
20:39
than a. Rule, right And even when you go
20:42
out to like lunch during a trial, like you don't know who's
20:46
around you. So you have to basically, you
20:49
know, not say anything about anything related to the trial
20:53
because you don't know who's listening, so.
20:56
That's right. But anyways, later on, on the
20:59
redirect, the defense asked Greg if his role as a defense witness
21:03
affects the results of his analysis.
21:06
Now here Greg gets to say what we all want to say when we're
21:10
testifying. He says I'm a fact Finder.
21:13
Whether I do cell mapping or forensics, The fact is the fact,
21:18
the data is the data. He also confirmed his answers
21:21
would not have been any different if he had been hired
21:24
by the state. When he was asked by the
21:26
prosecution how they would know that, he states that they should
21:30
hire him. I love that that is such a great
21:33
response and it is so true, right?
21:35
I mean, that's why we, that's the name of this podcast.
21:38
We are, we, we, we come up with the truth for you.
21:41
So I'd love that. I'd love his response.
21:44
The facts is the facts. The data is the data.
21:47
He's a fact Finder. That's so great.
21:49
So after the state's rebuttal, the defense calls Greg back to
21:53
the stand while the jury is out. He confirms in open court, No
21:58
jury, but open court. The Pam cell was in the same
22:02
tower sector as Betsy's house seven O 4:00 PM, and at 7:27 PM
22:10
she couldn't have made the 7:27 PM call from Hwy. 61 S of Troy
22:16
or at her home in O'Fallon. Unfortunately, the judge refused
22:20
to let the jury hear that information.
22:23
Denied again because of the previous ruling that Pam
22:27
couldn't be introduced as a suspect by the defense during.
22:30
Closing arguments The State introduces a new theory that
22:33
Russ left his phone at the game night and that the defense was
22:38
quick to clap back during their closing argument.
22:40
That there was nothing to prove that And that, you know, is
22:44
going back to what we said earlier, you have to do some
22:47
extra work to say that the person is with their phone
22:52
because of course people could leave their phones behind.
22:55
Sure, absolutely. The jury deliberates and asks
22:59
for maps of cell phone locations and cell phone towers and the
23:03
videos from the police as they drove the routes Russ said he
23:07
traveled. The jury returned the same day
23:10
at 4/30, 4:30 PM, five hours later, and found him guilty of
23:14
murder in the first degree and armed criminal action.
23:18
He was sentenced to life without parole.
23:20
So now the work begins on the appeal, and I think this is a
23:24
good stopping point for this episode before we continue on to
23:28
the results of the appeal and the murder of Louis
23:32
Gunpenberger. But let's talk about the digital
23:35
evidence here for a while. Becky, remind us what digital
23:39
evidence was collected. Yeah, so.
23:40
Pam's cell phone was collected. Call logs on Leah's cell phone
23:45
from the Fierra's house. 2 cell phones, assuming one was Betsy
23:50
and one was Russ's. Four laptops and computers, 3
23:54
hard drives, a thumb drive, an iPod, two MP3 players and more
23:59
than 200 Cdr WS and a Fujifilm camera.
24:03
Cell tower phone tower records for Russ and Pam's phones.
24:07
Yeah. And then going back to that
24:09
insider knowledge that we got about this case from the person
24:12
who processed the digital evidence, you know, he said that
24:16
the 10 computers came to his lab, but he never received
24:22
Betsy's cell phone or Betsy's laptop when this case initially
24:28
came into the office and before it went to trial the first time
24:33
during Betsy's phone and her laptop never made it to his lab
24:37
before Russ's trial the first time around.
24:40
And then eventually we know it gets examined later on, but I
24:43
think it was interesting that it was never initially examined.
24:47
Right. Why it's at where it's at and
24:50
didn't get immediately examined. We don't know why, but but like
24:53
in any case, there's there's so much evidence and you have to
24:56
make some calls about what do you want priorities.
25:00
Right. Yeah, exactly.
25:01
Yep. And I mean, if she was the
25:03
victim, you know, maybe they thought, well, her laptop isn't
25:06
important. We want to look at her husband's
25:09
stuff to see if he was researching how to kill someone,
25:13
if he was telling people he was going to kill someone.
25:16
But they didn't introduce any evidence from any of his devices
25:21
to introduce anything like that at all during the trial.
25:24
It was really just, you know, his cell phone evidence, those
25:28
call logs. And then there was the confusion
25:31
over whether he listened to that voicemail or did not.
25:35
And then after they thought about it matter of factly that
25:39
because the voicemail was so long, he wouldn't have been able
25:42
to retrieve that voicemail because it was still being left
25:47
left. And so again, that goes back to
25:49
being able to know know how to read your logs.
25:53
And there's been some other stuff in the news lately, too,
25:56
where there's been some misreading of symbols that come
26:01
out in the digital forensics tools that have led some people
26:05
to make some incorrect conclusions.
26:08
And let's kind of go loop it back around to Pam.
26:13
I mean, this is the thing about Pam, right?
26:16
And so with her cell phone evidence, the main focus was the
26:20
two calls from Pam cell phone to her husband and then the
26:25
location of that 7:27 PM phone call because that was hotly
26:30
debated by the defense. And the other interesting thing
26:33
to me too was that during the trial, the text from Betsy to
26:38
Pam were ruled as hearsay. Initially, I wasn't sure why,
26:43
but it makes sense now since we found out that they didn't do
26:47
anything with Betsy's phone in terms of known extraction and
26:52
examining it and things of that nature.
26:54
So I think it would have been important for those texts to get
26:59
in because it goes towards why is Pam trying to be with Betsy,
27:03
but Betsy's declining and she's showing up anyways?
27:06
And why did Pam have to be there that day?
27:09
Why did Pam have to drive Betsy home that day?
27:12
Why was she so adamant? Exactly.
27:15
It's all looking away from where they probably should have
27:20
focused the target at that time but not knowing because a lot of
27:24
times you know, the focus goes on the person that is closest to
27:29
which is many times the spouse. So the defense got in that Betsy
27:34
missed 3 phone calls from Leah. She promised she would answer so
27:39
that too that got those in. But then other things were left
27:45
out. Yeah.
27:45
And in terms of Russ's cell phone data, you know, they only
27:48
focus on the call with his mom before game night, then the
27:52
missed call from Betsy's mom that went to the voicemail.
27:55
And we've talked about that and, you know, we've alluded to this.
27:57
That's that that tricky part with the voicemail.
28:00
You've got to know it. Is it going to voicemail?
28:02
Is it retrieving the voicemail? And you know, how you access
28:07
your voicemail has certainly changed over time.
28:10
Like remember back in the day when you would call your own
28:14
cell phone number to get to voicemail or you could dial like
28:17
star 86 to get to your voicemail.
28:19
So, you know, it would be important to know, like what
28:23
does *86 do and who are they calling?
28:27
What does that mean? It's just them checking their
28:28
voicemail. It's nothing to fair.
28:29
So it's important to know what that stuff means.
28:32
And as we've talked about before, the wheels of justice
28:36
turn slowly. It's important to be able to go
28:39
back in time and see, OK, what were we doing five years ago,
28:44
seven years ago, especially when you get into appeals and
28:47
retrials, it certainly drags on. And you know, you're talking
28:50
like a decade later. And in this case if when Pam
28:54
goes to trial, that's going to be 15 years after the murder
28:57
occurred, right? So it's a long time and and
29:01
being able to go back through digital evidence like that is
29:04
hard. And that's what makes us
29:06
hoarders for in so many ways, right?
29:09
It's like I got to keep my floppy disk.
29:11
I've got to keep my notes about Windows XP because I don't know
29:15
what I'm ever going to have to examine that again.
29:18
I can't get rid of anything ever.
29:20
Right, right. I'm going back in the day like
29:23
15 years ago to look at evidence.
29:25
It's going to be tried 15 years after the case.
29:28
And yeah, you got, you got to have all those tools and, you
29:33
know, notes as well where evidence lies.
29:36
Right. And I mean, say the the state,
29:38
the prosecution, they had their examiners do the analysis back
29:42
then. They have what they have.
29:44
And so that would be like relevant and fresh in their
29:46
minds back in like 20-11 maybe when they were doing some
29:49
initial examinations. But now that it's going to trial
29:52
in 2026, they're calling a new defense expert now because, and
29:56
we have to remember the other thing that plays into this is
29:59
Greg has passed away. So any analysis that he may have
30:02
done during the first trial, he's no longer there to give
30:06
that testimony. So they're going to have to
30:08
bring in another defense expert and they're certainly battling
30:11
that 15 year gap of time. And you're going to have to
30:15
figure all this outgoing backwards in time.
30:17
Exactly. That's exactly right.
30:19
There's no mentions of anything from the laptops, computers,
30:23
hard drives, thumb drives, iPod, MP3 players, CDRWS, or the
30:28
camera. So no mentions yet.
30:30
Now, the defense did get to share the maps of Russ's cell
30:33
phone tower data. However, while the cell phone
30:36
tower data was shared in open court, the jury never got to
30:40
hear about how Pam's phone was still at the tower for Betsy's
30:44
house at 7:27 PM. And again, that's because of the
30:48
ruling not allowing the defense to point the finger at Pam for
30:52
Betsy's murder. And we'll be talking more about
30:55
Pam next week, yeah. So thank you to our listeners.
30:59
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training next year in Orlando. Thanks.
31:42
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
31:44
yeah, yeah. Yeah.