Latest / The Masonic Journey / Down the Rabbit Hole with Josh and David Hidden in Plain Sight: The Language of Masonic Symbols
Transcript
- Josh Kelley: Welcome back to the Masonic Journey and welcome to down the rabbit hole with Josh and David. David, thanks so much for being with me again. David Guarente: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Josh Kelley: All right. so what we're going to talk about today is symbols. you know, the core idea here is that Freemasonry communicates much of his philosophy through symbols. a symbol can carry layers of meaning that unfold through ritual, through study, contemplation, experience, and application. So the goal of this episode is to explore how symbols work, why Freemasonry relies on them so heavily, and how a Mason can interpret them. without either limiting them to a single definition or inventing meanings without foundations. So you know in the first episode we actually did talk about esoteric Freemasonry and the idea of looking beneath the surface. And symbols are really where this process begins. So David So we've talked a lot about symbols over the over the past gosh year or so that we've been friends here. And so what do you what do you when you're thinking about symbols, what do we actually mean when we call something a symbol? David Guarente: an image or a color or a character of something where what you're seeing does not lose its original meaning but instead also has various multi layers of hidden meanings embedded in it for us to discover. Josh Kelley: Yeah, you know, the the test the cool thing about symbols, you know, and there's a couple different thoughts I have here about symbols. you know, symbols are the they they're they're different. and we, you know, Freemasonry does teach a lot by symbols. And I always ask ask the question, why does it use symbols rather than just spelling out in a book exactly what you're supposed to about about what the teachings of masonry are? But I think it's because of a couple of things. You did say it changes over time. Time. As you look at that symbol, the different perspective you have on that symbol may change over the years and over time. we had a fantastic Masonic education. this state at our stated meeting on Thursday. We had brother Michael Griggs, who is our senior steward, actually talked about one of the symbols of Freemasonry, the 47th problem of Euclid, and it did a great, I thought it was a great job. Yeah, yeah. David Guarente: He did. He did a extraordinary job. Josh Kelley: He kind of talked about it from a little di different perspective than I've ever really even thought of it. And you know, he related it to faith and it was a very good very good argument, very good very good thought. So but symbols are different. and symbols are different from a few things. how is a symbol different from a sign? David Guarente: Sign can be a mode of recognition or something implying direction towards something else, it can Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: be a symbol, but not necessarily always a symbol. There can be an overlap in meaning, but it's not specifically meant necessarily, or the intent of the person creating it to be a symbol per se. But we have learned that certain signs like due guards. Penal sign, so forth, the way the body is positioned at the altar through all three degrees, the body becomes symbol. And it's what Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: it's doing with its hands, its feet, its knees, with the the great lights, the Holy Bible Square Encompasses, it becomes a s a living symbol. And that symbol in large part is the working tools of. All three degrees. More specifically, the fellowcraft degree is what I'm thinking of. But I Josh Kelley: Yeah, square down. David Guarente: that body bec the initiate, the person going through it, the candidate becomes the symbol of the working tools that he will be learning about. Whether he really he doesn't realize it yet, obviously. And those in who have studied the symbols understand Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: and recognize this, and it has a much deeper layer of meaning than somebody just doing something with their hands as a mode of recognition, for example. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's very different. You you're right. It's you know, and we're talking about signs and we're talking about the body position, you know, it's or symbols. We're talking about a body position and and we're talking about things like that. So symbols are are symbols are not just they're they're not just something written down on paper for you to look at. They're all they're all kinds symbols information we can draw from and get ideas from. So let me ask you this when what was your what was your first encounter you had with a symbol that you realized it was something more than just on the surface throwing a curveball. David Guarente: I think it would have been symbols that I've seen in Freemasonry or Masonic f pictures or paintings before I was a Freemason, stuff like we would see in the Master Mason degree, specifically skull and crossbones, the tibia bones, the all seeing eye and the beehive. and of course the forty seventh problem of Euclid. Excuse me. These really stood out and I was like, Why are they using these? And obviously I didn't know at the time, but on some instinctive unconscious level, they really resonated. And I really wanted to dig deeper once I became a Freemason, I was initiated. I felt I was able to more study and understand these symbols. I had like license to go and now ahead and do so and discover what those were and understand Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: why are we using these and how do they pertain to us and why are they important. How can they have benefit us and others? Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah, that's one thing I do a lot. you know, I I I would say that my first symbol that really kind of struck me as odd and different was was it the the sword pointing at the heart and as a symbol of fidelity, you know, and and and being faithful. But it just it's just it was one that just like, wow, that's kind of odd. What's that there for? You know, and that's I was like, well, I gotta look into that a little bit. you know, th they used to teach Freemasonry on a trestle board with pretty much mostly only symbols. and so you if I if you look at a really, really old cipher that talks about the ritual, it's almost all symbols, it seems. So and now we've got through a few consonants in there just to try to make things make it up for it. But it's to help you help somebody understand it and under and and understand the ritual. but symbols are all over the place in the in a in a Masonic lodge. Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morals, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. so yeah, it has allegory, but it so it actually differentiates allegory and symbols from each other. So so how is symbolism different from a metaphor or an allegory? David Guarente: A symbol is an image typically, and it doesn't have to be just an image, but let's make it for argument's sake right now, I'll make it easy. It's an image that has multiple layers of meaning that don't necessarily contradict each other, but they complement each other. And different people can approach that symbol from different directions, and they can come up with different interpretations. But learning about those different interpretations can actually benefit others who listen and hear because they will understand, I've never recognized that before. That is so unique. I I'm wishing I thought of that because that really resonates with me too. But my experience has not been it wasn't so apparent. Whereas an allegory is more of a narrative story that works on a double layer of meaning. So there's Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: What we see and there's telling a story, but what is it really telling us behind the scenes at the same exact time? So does it function like a symbol? I believe so, but it does it in a narrative or story sense instead of just an image or a letter, a character or a word or something, and a flag. These can all be symbols. Josh Kelley: Yeah. We talk about symbols as if I mean the symbol of our country is the American flag. we're both Americans. and but that that symbol has changed over the years. and if you ask people what is what does the you know flag of the United States look like to you, you'll get well, what does it mean to you? it does carry meaning. It does carry some for some people it's patriotism, for some people it's freedom, for some people it's it's it's it's whatever political party they're in, you know. It depends on how what direction you see it. The original flag by Betsy Ross was had the 13 original colonies in a circle. that was the the flag that they actually fought the revolution under. But so science, so the symbols just there's symbols in life everywhere. every religion, every major religion I would contend, has some type of symbol with it. have some type of sym symbolism. And so why do you think we as humans, I mean I I I think about this all the time, why do we resonate more sometimes with symbols than we do with with with the spoken or written word? David Guarente: well, if I could quote you, I believe in one of your books, it might have been The Path of Light. You say that the the language of the soul is symbols, and that also applies to the unconscious. So we see these things and then we it enters in through our eyes, or mostly, and we come up with ideas based on that. Some of them we don't even fully understand. They are so buried in our subconscious or in our unconscious mind. Our unconscious mind thinks. in pictures. It doesn't think in words. So if I say if I say Josh Kelley: Hmm. David Guarente: elephant, what's the first thing that pops in your head? It's not necessarily Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: the word spelled out. It's actually an image of what I just said. You see the picture of the element. So our our minds think in pictures. That's how we remember things. We try to group things Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: with images. Our minds work that way. The unconscious totally works in that way, especially when it comes to dreams and so forth. Josh Kelley: All right. David Guarente: So it's an inherent thing already. This is how we learn at a basic fundamental level, even before language even fully existed in a concrete form spoken every day amongst human beings who didn't have language. What did they know? They probably drew pictograms on walls of caves and in forests, on tree bark. It's all pictures. We think in pictures, our unconscious is in pictures, Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: our dreams are in pictures, not words. Josh Kelley: Yeah. That's that's true. I and I never thought about it that way. And well, and I guess I did because of wrote in the book, but you know, that the the we do think in pictures. we do think of you know when I'm when I'm sitting there thinking about what I want to accomplish in life, you know, the images come to my mind. thoughts, you know, the thoughts aren't just you know, words written down, but it everything starts as a symbol in your mind. as some kind of a picture, as some kind of a you know, there are things that I have that I keep because it reminds me of certain things, moments or things, you know, we keep mementos, we keep you know, we keep, you know, I have a I have an Irish flag on my on my wall to remind me of my Irish, Irish heritage. So every we have different things that are just things that remind us of a certain moment. That's why we collect souvenirs, I think, as well when we're when we when we go on vacation, because we want to remember that beach trip, you know. So you may put a little bit of sand in a little in a in a little jar and bring that sand home from that beach. now that's not the beach, but it's a symbol. And every time you look at that, you remember, hey, yeah, that I remember the I remember the beach. I remember that time I had and what you remember is the experience that you've had there. Not just the, hey, we were at the the facts of the thing. It's the experience. My wedding ring's a symbol. I David Guarente: Yes. Josh Kelley: remember, you know, I looking at my at my wedding wedding ring, it's symbols are everywhere. this this reminds me of my commitment to to my wife. Now when when we when we did a the the wedding, they took the rings and they said, Okay, so there's a couple things about this ring. Pointed out a couple of things. They said it's a s complete circle, goes all the way around. It's good. It means it never ends, you know, just like you, you know, your your your love, love your is a symbol of love that never ends. so and it's it so with symbols that you know are everywhere. McDonald's and Starbucks. David Guarente: Yes. Josh Kelley: if you see in fact Starbucks stop putting the name Starbucks on their signs, they just use the symbol and people. David Guarente: Yeah, they just use the symbol. Mm-hmm. The the the icon. Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah, the the siren that on the on the on the symbol. But you see that siren, you see that symbol and you're like, man, well, you know what? Maybe I do want some coffee, you know. it doesn't have to have the the the name even on it because now that symbol is now recognized as well, it it's it's it's recognized as coffee. Somewhere you're gonna get a caramel macchiato, which is my favorite coffee, you know, nice caramel macchiato hot. in the morning, wake myself up, get plenty of sugar, plenty of caffeine, and it's probably not good for me to do to have being being the being the fact that I have that I am a diabetic, you know, owning to the fact that I'm a diabetic. But hey, you know, why not? Right? So get something, you just get your body, you know, up and moving and rolling and flowing. And but that's but that star bats a symbol. It's you David Guarente: Yeah, the company logos are symbols, and you can look at it and you can think positive ideas on it, or you can think negative ideas based on how you view that company just by that single image. They they can save company money and advertising just by not even using the words and the letters all the time and print material. They just put the symbol on there and save a couple of bucks at the same time. But people view it differently, but it's still the same symbol. Good or bad, it's Josh Kelley: Yep. Yeah, it is. David Guarente: all included in the meaning. There are good things about these companies and they're probably things that are not so good about it. And it's all included and wrapped up in that single symbol, which ostensibly doesn't change what it's showing us, but the meanings behind it are also all included in there. And those may contradict one another, but it's all part of the complete package of what you're getting when Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: you see it. Josh Kelley: Yeah, I know on my phone I was looking for the Sam's Club app the other day. and I'm like, well, I gotta find the Sam's Club. I was flipping through my little shopping folder on my iPhone and I was flipping through that and I'm like, man, where'd it go? Where'd it go? It changed the logo on me. So it when I saw finally found it, I'm like, well, my mind didn't just David Guarente: We're looking for a symbol and we're expecting it to be in a certain place in time and if they change it on us, it rocks our world sometimes. We become too reliant on the symbol. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Exactly. So you gotta really communicate. Ha you know, there have been companies that have completely changed their logo over the years of something very, very different. And it's been a instead of being the the thing that everybody remembers and just modifying it a little bit, you know, they they they change it. for Path of Light Publishing, we have a we have a symbol for Path of Light Publishing. It's a it's a it's a path going up into the mountains and there's something, you know, the whole symbolizing the ascent up a mountain and you can take a look at that and you can kind of think, well, you know, what is the symbol on on this? What does that actually mean? What does that actually stand for? David Guarente: And it's not blatantly Masonic on purpose. It's somebody Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: could look at it and not say that's not Masonic at all. But we recognize it as yes, this could be, but it's not something that's taught. But we recognize that glorious ascent in what it's depicting in that symbol that you picked. But there's nothing that says, this is purely Masonic. No, it's not. Josh Kelley: No. Yeah, exactly. So it's got you just kind of see. David Guarente: And it's deliberately done that way. So you can be more open to other information and media and books written by authors and so forth that is not Masonic and it's still acceptable because it still has that same positive messaging overall that they want to present Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: to the public or the author does. Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well I I I did get a was given a gift this week. and it is actually a symbol here. it's not in the box here. there it is. So I got a sorry about that. So so I got a symbol this week was given to me by by brother. This is this is the compasses, right? And you open it up, there's a square in compasses, but then you open it up all the way and it's a knife. But but Not sure how I feel about a knife being a s but anyway, but it's it's you know, it's but you got that ink? David Guarente: It is properly shaped for that though, unfortunately. Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's you know, it's not a it's not a bad name, but it it says Freemason on it. It's it's a symbol, you know, it's got the letter G on it and everything in the in the middle of a blazing star and yeah, so you get the get the square encompasses. but yeah it's David Guarente: Not necessarily meant though as a symbol for internal lodge use, meaning Josh Kelley: Correct. David Guarente: we're not supposed to or we're encouraged not to bring anything offensive or defensive into the lodge with us, especially things of a metallic Josh Kelley: into the lodge. Right. Yeah. This is not this is not meant to David Guarente: kind. Josh Kelley: Right, right, exactly. So yeah, so that's a so it's a it's it's just a little it's a symbol, you know, 'cause it's a square and compass and it's it was kind of him. I really appreciated that that gift. That was really thoughtful of him. you know, we talk about other symbols in life. You know, there's there's Masonic symbols, there's there's th there's Christian symbols, there's symbols in Islam, there's symbols in in in in in every major religion out there. Catholicism has a lot of symbols. you know, the stations of the cross, you know, you go into a Catholic church and you see all the paintings of the stations of the cross all the way around. You see I grew up in in Europe. So in Germany, I remember going into some of these cathedrals and they were beautiful cathedrals, and you put a lot of thought into it, probably built by operative masons, because it was built, you know, these are you know, six, seven, eight hundred-year-old cathedrals, even older is sometimes depending on the name on the town you go into. You see the beautiful artwork and because in and I think the reason why we do that is because it is it is the language of the soul. It is the language that we that we speak in the soul. So and and hum David Guarente: And they serve as guideposts all on our journey. Not just a Masonic journey, but a life journey in general for anyone. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah, I went I did get my license renewed not long ago and they had me look into this into the into the little thingy on you know with your forehead and it makes it light up and I had this the the different signs, you know, the which are symbols, you know, the stop sign, the the yield sign and you gotta be able to recognize that and and and see it. Yeah, you got David Guarente: Great example. Yep, ones we use every day. We take it for granted. We're like, we but they're symbols. Now a stop sign Josh Kelley: They're everywhere. David Guarente: pretty much is not negotiable as far as Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: local governments or state governments are concerned. however, yes, there is definitely a symbol. Josh Kelley: Right, right, right. Well they have a white border, they're optional. David Guarente: Yes. Well, if you're in California, perhaps. The California stop. Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They got the California stop. Yeah, it depends on where you're at. If you some places I've been in Eastern Europe, you know, they're they're just suggestions. They're not they're not actually you know, a a red light doesn't really mean anything. And s and w when I first went to Korea for the first time, that was when it really yeah, no stop signs didn't mean anything. Just David Guarente: That's also with the s the light is the the use of color as meaning something also as symbol. Josh Kelley: Yeah, 'cause red means stop. You know, but talk about red flags. Red I mean, red's kind of seen as a negative color, that's right. David Guarente: Or aggressive color. Like, hey, we want to get your attention with this, so pay attention. Stop signs in red, Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: stop lights in red. Josh Kelley: And our minds do process colors differently. So most warning signs are yellow. because yellow captures our attention immediately. when I was in mar taking marketing class, they talked about the use of color in in logos and su and such and in marketing. And so it's it's David Guarente: And in school classrooms deliberately, I've been in schools as a student in New York growing up where they would paint probably the most boring classes that you could have for most people, which probably would be some math and sciences. They would paint those rooms where those classes were held deliberately over the summer in yellow. So it would be very h it would be harder to fall asleep during that class if you're not so inclined to enjoy those subjects in those rooms Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: because of the color. Where if it was a very passive, calm pastel, bluish green or aquamarine or you you'd be like just lulled into subconsciousness and just relaxing and you wouldn't pay attention in class at all as much. This is the thought. Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: So yes, those colors are used as symbols, but they have a definite purpose, not just for contemplation, but they wanna I don't wanna call it social engineering necessarily, but they wanna have a certain Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: effect on you in your subconscious. Josh Kelley: Yeah, absolutely. And you get these all these all these different groups and the philosophies rely so heavily on symbolic language. If you look at the well, let's go back, let's go down to some mystery schools from way back in the day. You know, we talk about Egypt. and Mes Mesopotamia, Egypt, there were plenty of symbols well before that because they brought those symbols out and and painted them on walls. in the in the everywhere in in egypt so they had the hieroglyphics they literally wrote their language was pictures and depending on yeah David Guarente: Yes. great that's an excellent example. Yes. Josh Kelley: depending on the meaning of the of of what their of of where it was it would take on sometimes a different meaning you know you had the symbol for Ra the the sun god you had the symbol for names are escaping me, my my my Egyptology are is is is is escaping my brain right now. But but each of those the the pharaoh, each of the pharaohs had their own symbol, their own their own things. They had you know, and so when you interpret those, when you look at those, you know, you well, this means this. Well sometimes it didn't. It meant this, but if it was a group with these other symbols, it meant something different. And nets being cast, what were the nets that were being cast in the in the temples? There's a lot of nets in in temples. So what does that mean? And some guys have taken some very esoteric meaning from some of the symbols that they found in Egypt. Some people and then the Greeks, the Greeks used they they they started writing more it language as it went on became more grammatical more not grammatical phonetic You know, they had those symbols meant sounds and those sounds meant words, became words when you put those sounds together. and then slowly but surely it the the one language that makes the least sense when as far as languages go is the actually the English language, 'cause you know, David Guarente: Mm. Josh Kelley: sometimes a letter sounds like something, sometimes it doesn't. you know, I found when I went to Bulgaria, It was the first country I went to where they had a different alphabet. I went to Bulgaria, they had they used David Guarente: is it Cyrillic? Josh Kelley: Cyrillic, yeah. They used Cyrillic in Bulgaria. And when I went to visit there, I I'm kind of the kind of person that I want to be able to read the signs, read things that are everywhere. So I've I my first two days there, I took time to stop and actually learn the Cyrillic alphabet. So I may not know what that actually means. But at least I can read it and figure it out. You know, when I see the same and when you see the same words over and over again, you find up figuring out what they mean. That's how we process language is by seeing those things over and over again. You hear somebody talking about it and and I remember attending a church there and reading you know, reading along with the Bible where they had I had a English Bulgarian translated Bible that had the English letters in the English words and they had the the Bulg Bulgarian words below it, which is a you know a derivative of Russian. it's but they have their own language that's that's a it's a that you kinda understand with with the Russians. So on most of those most of the Eastern a lot of the Eastern not most, a lot of the Eastern European countries that came from the same background, they all They all kind of have a very similarity in in things like that. And it's very b much based on the Greek alphabet, which David Guarente: Yes. Josh Kelley: was straight phonetic. If you can read if you can read Greek, you can speak Greek. and that's the you know, in Bible college we went we learned Greek. That's because a lot of the Bible was written in the New Testament was written in Aramaic and Greek, and so we we learned Greek and then we ignored it, but that's a different story for another that's that's a completely different story. So then later on developed the Latin alphabet and the the and the all these alphabets came and the Romans to come they developed the alphabet we currently use today in in America in the United States and in English. but if you look all over the world, you know, language is developed and we use symbols to understand to to to be able to speak to each other. And to to write letters to each other, to read words on a computer, and such. So so it's all about symbols. So David Guarente: But if you look if you go to the root of where these letters came from and why they were picked the way they were and where they originated, they were ultimately pictograms to represent physical things, usually. there was a symbol That would represent like a house. I'm thinking of the Hebrew language specifically. So Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: Beth. And then therefore that would become the letter B. But it was their pictogram Josh Kelley: Right. Yeah. David Guarente: for a house, which for them began with what we would call the letter B. And so forth. It goes down the whole 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. They have one that was a hand, that was Yod, the tenth letter. Which looks like a little squiggly, Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: but we know it as Masons to mean something else entirely and more profound than just that. So forth and it's a whole bunch of different things like that. The whole alphabet's like that. So if they did it with their alphabet, I can only assume or presume educ make an educated guess that all languages with their letters Samaritan, Chaldean, all of those, Arabic, even the Chinese pictograms. Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: in in the Asian languages, Japanese, Chinese, so forth, kanji and Hatakana and Katakana, they all are pictures that they have then used to represent either letters and or words in all languages. So this is a human thing. We use pictures. It is inherent Josh Kelley: It is a human thing. David Guarente: inside us. Josh Kelley: Mm. So when when we begin Yeah. David Guarente: Archetypes. These are archetypes are pictures. And we see them in dreams or we recognize them in other people. It's not spelled out s spelled out for us in words, but we recognize Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: it mo at certain times and they are also pictures. Josh Kelley: Yeah. So when we go to the from there to symbols in Freemasonry and and symbols in spiritual life. you know, the these the we we s we be we continue to create symbols to to represent things. I know the cross is a major symbol for Christians. You know, they think about the when they look at the cross, they the for the it's the crucifix and and Catholicism is the and it's an empty cross as well in Catholicism. there's a cross in in Christ cross in Christianity. And but if you actually think about that a little bit, that was a torture device. That was an mid e that was a and it ended up becoming a symbol of of of love, but it was a symbol of torture. It was a you know, when you thought of a cross in the first century, you didn't think of something beautiful you want to p hang on your neck. That'd be like you know, hanging a gas chamber around your neck nowadays or a or David Guarente: Or the electric chair. Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: the electric chair hang you know, carrying it around your neck, you know, that it was kind of morbid in a way, the thought. And and I don't the cross really wasn't when did it end up becoming? it wasn't in the first century that the cross became something that they was a symbol that they loved 'cause it was still people were still being crucified on them back then. David Guarente: I believe they used the fish to recognize each other when they were Josh Kelley: Yeah, they used the fish was the first. David Guarente: being persecuted in Rome or during the r times of the Roman Empire. That's how they were able to identify Josh Kelley: Yeah, so the Right. David Guarente: each other. Josh Kelley: Yeah, and the fish was the first Christian symbol. if you call it that. It it was the correct David Guarente: Mm-hmm. Of the Piscean Age, which Pisces constellation. We're we're seeing pictures and stars up in space and we gotta make some kind Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: of sense out of it in the ancient world. So let's put let's transpose a symbol or a picture on top of that and we will turn that into something much greater for us instead of just a bunch of c Josh Kelley: So now we can David Guarente: stars that are mi tens of hundreds of light years away. Josh Kelley: Yeah, so like Orion and and you know, being able to see you see the three line stars lined up, you know, well that's Orion there. You can kinda trace out the rest David Guarente: Yep, Orion's bell. Josh Kelley: of it. you you look at the my my wife talks about her her grandfather. We would go out into the out outside at night and they would they would see who could find the who could find the big dipper of the fastest, you know. And being able to look up at the stars and see what the stars and and all over the world he used the stars as pictures, you know, 'cause it and I think it it may have been kind of a pneumatic pneumatic pneumatic pneumatic tool to to be able to see it and able to s to find them quickly by looking at the way the group stars are grouped together. But I think it's more than that even. you know, they because they ascribe they a lot of times they took their mythology and the their the their stories about the the gods and they place their gods in the sky and they say well this looks like Mars over there this looks like you know Hades this looks the you know that sure is heck what Yep and their color David Guarente: Because of how they're positioned and their color in the sky at night. Josh Kelley: Yep and and the direction they're at you know and it all yeah and David Guarente: And the direction they're at, yes. Yep, absolutely. Josh Kelley: In the study of astrology and astronomy, you know, why what caused us to start looking up? It was that sense of awe and wonder. We when the heck there wasn't there wasn't any light pollution back then. nowadays we have so much light pollution we can't even see unless you can find a place that has no light pollution. Even then satellites are blocking the view many times. You can see satellites moving around in the sky when you get into a place with no light pollution nowadays. So it's in They're and they're talking a lot about that. in they're they're talking about painting satellites different colors so they don't show up in the sky as as easily. and they don't block the view of the stars. so yeah, because those stars were symbols. So it goes all the way back to the very first humans looked up at the sky and wondered, you know, that's it's That star, it's something greater and bigger than us. We don't know what that is yet, but you know, over time we learned what that was, you know, what what and and and we're big and it should bring us to even greater awe and wonder, the vastness of, you know, because what we could see then and what we could see now is, you know, it's we see less, but we understand more about what's caused it, because that. those stars in the sky made us want to look deeper and find more meaning and find out what what why is this there? So so let's Yeah. David Guarente: How about a real progression of things? For example, ancient man looks up in the sky, he sees a random collection of stars, he needs to make sense out of it. He turns it into an image or a picture of something he understands and knows, and then it expounds upon that and builds a whole mythology about it. that star is good because it's at this time of year, and that implies this, this, this, and this. Josh Kelley: Mm. David Guarente: And This star over here is good because it's near the sun. And to the sun, the sun gives us this and this, and then we expound upon that. These are all blessings that we can interpolate and then turn into not just physical but rather in tangibles or metaphysical ideas that are built upon that. Then we take how that arrangement is in the sky and we try to replicate it on Earth with building. Temple building, certain alignments with the stars of certain cities. And they did this in Central America Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: and Mesoamerica. They did it in South America, for example. England, Stonehenge, for example, Josh Kelley: Yep. David Guarente: positioned a certain way. Think of it like an ancient calendar. So now they're using this not only to tell time and make sense out of things in the universe and how to apply it in their daily lives. for farming, for administrative Josh Kelley: Yep. David Guarente: purposes, but now we can use it for building and positioning at certain times of day. well we know that the sun never goes above this degree above the horizon at this time of year and we need light and warmth in these buildings. So we're gonna position it a certain way because we know at the other time of year it's gonna benefit us more when the sun is passing above more and not just directly above the horizon Josh Kelley: Hmm. David Guarente: like in the winter versus the summer. Josh Kelley: Yep, heating and cooling, yeah. David Guarente: Depending on what's part of the earth you're on. So now it's telling us how to build, where to build, and how to position ourselves. So now you have houses, temples, buildings being built. Now you have cities. Now you have a society. Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: Now you have a country and a culture. And it all came from somebody looking up in the sky and saying, I see this up there in this collection of stars. And it's at this time of year and it's in that position. And I can always rely on it and I'm gonna use that as a template to imitate down here below what I see above. Josh Kelley: Hm. Well that's a and then that house above so below. David Guarente: So all of society comes from a symbol or several symbols. Josh Kelley: Right, right. Yeah, exactly. Culture and c society of itself came from those symbols, absolutely. and so when we're when we why so Freemasonry star us uses uses symbols, uses a lot of symbols. a lot of people talk about the symbols of Freemasonry. People who are not Masons understand they see a couple of the symbols. They recognize them as symbols of Freemasonry. The square encompass is one. the that that that's easily recognizable. some countries has the letter G, some countries it does not have the letter G. And people say, Well, you know, why don't they have the letter G? They don't use the letter G. It's a different country. So it's just David Guarente: And if you're to say it means God only, well in those countries, in their language, God does not begin with the letter G. If it's in Western Europe it's usually D. Yes. Josh Kelley: Yeah, it's D and and Latin. Yeah, yeah, deo, yeah. And even in you know, even in Hispan in in in in Latin, in in Latin based based languages, yeah, Deus and God starts with a B David Guarente: Theos Yeah. Theos Dios Dio Josh Kelley: in in in in a lot of Eastern European countries. Bog is David Guarente: Bog. Josh Kelley: God. so it starts with the the this the sound David Guarente: A a B equivalent. Josh Kelley: B. Yeah, so so yeah, so ever so even if it was geometry, geometry is not always start with the G in other languages and cultures too. So so whatever that symbol is, so so the symbols change based on the culture you're in, because they don't have the same meaning. so the letter G may mean something special to us here in the United States and and and England and but it doesn't mean the same thing in a lot of the other countries because you know it it's That may be a symbol for us, but it's not the same symbol for them. an all-seeing eye is used in many, many cultures instead of the Jeeves, because it's it is a depiction of God who always watches over us. and so and an even deeper meaning it's further back you go. so you know when we talk about the symbols of Freemasonry, there are people who recognize we have symbols. in fact, Dan Brown wrote. books about the symbols of freedom, the lost symbol. David Guarente: The Lost Symbol is the title of his book. Josh Kelley: Yeah. So and it's just that because there there are symbols and and they want to they want to find out what those are. You know, what what do they mean? What's the meaning behind the symbols? And and it's so in our ritual we talk about the symbols. we talk about the the the the circle the the circumpunct it's a circle with a dot in it David Guarente: Circumpunct is a great one, yeah. That was one of my first two. Josh Kelley: with the lines on the side, you know, which what do the lines represent? You know, it was, you know, Saint John the Baptist, Saint John the Ev evangelist. But why was was Saint John the Baptist and Saint John the Evangelist chosen? Well, Saint John the Evangelist, that happened his his feast day that they created for him was around the winter solstice. And yeah, and the the summer David Guarente: It's your birthday. Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: solstice, that was that his his his feast day for John the Baptist was Saint John the Baptist was in the summer solstice. So we could say that it's the it's it's it's light returning and light it's light becoming less. Light becoming less and light coming back. So David Guarente: It always comes back, it's cyclical, and it's within boundaries for ourselves, especially. If we're to be the sun or what it represents specifically, each Freemason, that circle that of completion. It's very Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: important that you don't you have to circumscribe your desires and keep your passions within due bounds. It's important that you don't go past a certain limit on either extreme, cause then your behavior. we could term with good cause is unmasonic. You can only take it so far Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah, that that's what you know, at the top of David Guarente: and then you're no longer within those bounds. You are not within the parameters of where that circ circle is supposed to be for your personal enrichment Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: or others. Josh Kelley: Right. And I was I was doing mentoring and the Missouri mentoring guide has at the end of the fellowcraft degree, it has a it has a symbol in in the mentoring guide. It's it's the circumpunct. It's this dot and the circle and it's got a it has the the the the Saint John the Baptist, Saint John the Evangelist and the lines on both sides. It has the volume of sacred literature on on the top. And which the the Holy Bible, depending on what what religion you're in, but the but it's talking about the due bounds and having a moral focus and and that's a and that's that's a great symbol. There's other if you go into sacred geometry, that's that circumpunct takes on even a different and more more more more de a a different and deeper meaning. so As we see these symbols, the all these symbols are are are different. you know, a definition can be is something that we can memorize. We can memorize a definition when things are written out. but a symbol is more different because a symbol can be lived with. You know, you have a definition of something, it does change. David Guarente: And it changes. It can change. You're it's meaning to you as you change yourself. Josh Kelley: Yeah, because you know, that's circle and a dot meant what the ritual told me it meant at first. Now it's come to mean so much different. You know, I I I think about the circumpunk probably more than any other symbol. It's just the one that resonates with me. Yeah. David Guarente: It's a g it's a great one, yes. Josh Kelley: So because, you know, I consider that I have a certain length around me that is my circle of influence that and in that circle of influence I am responsible for things that fall in my circle of influence. and as a as a man, my family's my circle of influence. It's it's my it's my kids, it's my it's my and my my wife's in my circle of influence. And I'm responsible for people who I come into contact with. I'm always looking for I'm a salesman, so I do a lot of in-home sales. I go to people's houses and I sell sell them garage door or getting ready to switch over and do do windows and and siding and and roofs. I'm starting that Monday. So but when we look at these symbol at these when I'm looking at that circumpunct, I'm thinking, you know, these people, there are there are human moments that we experience. And and sometimes I don't feel I'm there just to sell the person a gr a garage door or a roof or or siding or or windows. Sometimes I'm there because they need someone there. and I met a When I was there I met I met Brother John Meyer, who was a member David Guarente: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: of our lodge and he was he was on hospice and he's since passed away. but he be it it gave me that moment, you know. If we're if we're just there to sell a garage door, then I would have just done the garage repaired their garage door and moved on. But David Guarente: But didn't a family member see the symbols on your person and that's what said, Hey, my yes, come see talk to John Meyer. He's a he's Josh Kelley: Yes. H his wife his wife saw. Hm. Yeah. David Guarente: a Mason too. Josh Kelley: Come talk to Bill. So I went and talked to Bill and you know, and and man at that moment and man just seeing him it's still an experience that I that I it that affected me deeply, being able to understand that, you know, man, I'm I'm going the same way one day, you know. He was a Mason for sixty years. And but someday I'm I'm gonna be that guy looking back at my life and it really brought back the well the lessons of the of the of the master masonry, which I won't get into as as much, but well we we can but that idea of you know you you're living for something deeper and bigger and the our life is a symbol. so but I think so how do we interpret a symbol? and I think we should establish some guardrails here. symbolic interpretation shouldn't become this symbol means whatever I feel like it means. That's one extreme. At the same time, the explanation given in the ritual may be the beginning of contemplation, not rather than the end of it. so you can't we can't be dogmatic and say this symbol means this and it only means this, and therefore that's the meaning. And if you don't like it, you know, too bad. That's that's not how symbol symbols work. That's what makes them more powerful. At the same time, you can't say, well, whatever you get out of it, you get out of it. Well, no, there's there's I think that's the wrong approach as well. So the key is finding a balance somewhere in the middle. so so here's a a a a possible method of of interpreting symbols. I think we need to first look at the context. David Guarente: I was just gonna say context. What's the situation Josh Kelley: Where Yeah. David Guarente: you're finding it in and what's being told to you about it to guide you? So it's not willy nilly. Josh Kelley: Right. It's a you know, having that context, where do it appear, what's what's happening when we encounter it? what's around that symbol? what surrounds that symbol? who's speaking when the symbol is presented? what's happened immediately. David Guarente: And what does that person in the la what does he represent? Josh Kelley: Yeah. Because each of the each of the positions of the officers actually represent something, for sure. David Guarente: If it's the senior deacon giving you symbols in the senior deacon lecture of the fellow craft degree, I would argue that it's your conscience being your talking to you and telling you these things. Let your conscience be your guide. Josh Kelley: Yep. Yep, just like Jiminy Crick Cricket used to sing. David Guarente: He he's it it's no less true. Josh Kelley: I know, I know. Well Jiminy Jiminy Cricket, that's a symbol, you know, you think of that. Like when you see Jiminy Cricket now you think of a co like a conscience, you know. David Guarente: I think of the senior deacon now. Josh Kelley: Now when I see him, I'm gonna think yeah, when a senior deacon, yeah. We'll at our lodge is Jake Waldron. Yeah. David Guarente: I'll think of Jake. Josh Kelley: Jake, you're the Jiminy cricket of our lodge, brother. That's it, and that's it. David Guarente: He is. He's a conscience. If the lodge represents your interior space and each of these officer positions based on where they're located, what they do, what they say, their roles, what are they what is it trying to tell us about our own internal being? Why is this person here? Why is he so significant? Josh Kelley: Yeah. So yeah. David Guarente: Eventually we hope that the candidate will take his place because where does the senior deacon sit? In the northeast. These directions Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: are symbols. The cornerstone of any building or lodge, traditionally in their ceremonies, should be in the northeast corner. And there's a reason for that. It's the even the placement, position of it is a symbol. The direction it itself is a symbol. It's the halfway Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: point between total darkness in the north and total light in the east, where the sun typically rises. Josh Kelley: Yeah. So I mean and and and you did a wonderful Masonic education on that, and when it was at the winter solstice act. Yeah. David Guarente: At the winter solstice last year, and January too, around that time, yes, around Christmas time. Josh Kelley: Yeah, so about the about how the light moves through, you know, through through the sky is David Guarente: how the sun moves through the lodge and don't think of it just being in the sky as the e part of the sun's ecliptic through the heavens. It's also what's going on inside you as well. It's that alchemical Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: journey of the Magnum opus, the great work itself. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you gotta think of the context. another one I have here written down here is explicit Masonic teaching. Sometimes the ritual actually tells you what the symbol means. it points it out and says this symbol means this. this David Guarente: Exoterically. Josh Kelley: exot correct. So the so the so the square. The square is an emblem of virtue. so what does that mean? The square is an emblem of virtue to you. David Guarente: It means all your corners are well angled on all sides so that you can live a fully balanced life. Josh Kelley: Yeah. So which kind of alludes to the forty seventh problem of Euclid as well. David Guarente: It does, 'cause there are three squares, or full squares, Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: four sided squares. And when you put them together, something invisible emerges in the center of them. Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: A triangle, which is a symbol of deity. It can be other things, but change, delta, Josh Kelley: Right. Yeah. David Guarente: but deity. And the square Josh Kelley: Yep, faith, deity. David Guarente: itself, the four sided square, is the material, the physical. So we're looking at Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: all these different physical aspects, but when you have them positioned in the correct way, and Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: they come together, they reveal something new. Well, that was always there, but it emerges from the invisible to the visible to the person who can see it. They're all seeing eye for themselves is now opened. Some people call it the sixth or ajna, third eye chakra. Josh Kelley: Right, right. David Guarente: There's a reason why that's in there as well. Hence going forward, now you see something new emerge amongst the mundane. It's the divine Josh Kelley: Right. Right. David Guarente: has taken over. Josh Kelley: Yeah. So when we talk about squaring our actions, be s you know, let's let's let's just talk be on we're on the you know we're on the level or we're we part on the square. It's it's it has to do with that sense of morality, that sense of purpose, that sense of meaning. And it's there, and but you end up finding it everywhere. and a lot of times the explicit teaching of Freemasonry, we start start there. It's a good place to start. But even the ritual itself says don't end there. it actually David Guarente: No, you take it out into the world, the lessons that you learned in the lodge. So you're parting upon Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: the square. The square is what you learned in the lodge. Now go out and do great things in the world. Whereas you when you came in, you met everybody as having equal potentiality, perhaps? Maybe maybe Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: that's not the best phrase for that, but Everybody comes with the same human weaknesses and faults Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: and you can't think of yourself as better than somebody else. You have to look at them even if they may come from a different background than you or a different belief system, you have to look at them or so yes, Josh Kelley: Or or different socioeconomic position. David Guarente: socioeconomic also that you have to treat them with their own human worth regardless of all that. So you're meeting them on the level. But when you learn Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: those lessons in the lodge, you then leave with acquired knowledge that you can now apply into as wisdom. You take it outside the lodge into the real world as well. And you be helpful to other people, you look out for other people, you try to work on yourself constantly every day, even if it's just a little Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: bit, because I know people are busy, I get it, I'm busy, you're busy, we get it. Josh Kelley: Little bit every David Guarente: But Josh Kelley: day. David Guarente: taking it out into the world you part upon the square. So use that as Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: your guide when you go back outside into the into the outside world. Josh Kelley: Absolutely. So tradition, how a lot of Masonic authors and writers and have have interpreted different symbols different ways. and there are differences so there are differences between jurisdictions and in different rites. So we have the Scottish Rite and the York Rite, they had take those same some symbols and they assign they they infer different things from them. so there's just traditions, there's there's periods, there's there's there's authors that that write about the I mean I've I've have about four books on symbols that I'm reading through right now because I'm this year I'm spending a year in symbols at our at our at our lodge for Armasonic education. So so we want to you know to learn more and more about this the symbols and and what they mean to different brothers, what they mean to different people, because if a lane if if Freemasonry is illustrated by symbols. We should learn and understand what the symbols are and how to interpret them. so you know, tr tradition does expand. And comparison, does a symbol appear in philosophy, religion, architecture, mythology, mathematics, or another tradition? I got into a Facebook. Well, I'm not got into a Facebook. I I saw someone who wrote something about Freemasonry. he's written a book about symbols. he he wrote something about Freemasonry on his Facebook page. And I commented, I I didn't comment publicly. I sent him a message and says, you know, you say this and you have a picture of Albert Pike, but does it really mean that? Did Pike ever say that? And so we got into a good discussion back and forth a little bit. and it's one that I hope I can continue having a nice conversation with this guy. He's this by all rights, I don't not believe this. This guy is actually a Freemason. he loves symbols though. He looks at a lot of the the symbols. It's Gnosti Gnostic something is his Facebook the page name. But you know, and talking to him a little bit. And I'm I'm I'm looking at his book, re reading through it and seeing all the different symbols and everything, but and he takes from all these different groups. Kabbalah and and Catholicism and and numerology and there's there's guys who are deep into esoteric teaching and they get into the numerology, they get into the what's the the each letter is yeah, David Guarente: Gamatria? Is it Gematria you're thinking of? Josh Kelley: yeah, yeah. Like where where each each letter has a number assigned to it, and that number means certain thing, and which is right, right. And then they say, well. David Guarente: Correct. Yep. When you add them all up, it means something special. In Jewish mysticism, like k Kabbalah and so forth does that. Notericon and Kamatria. Josh Kelley: Yeah, and and and and there's an up there's an opponent as well of of a Freemasonry on Facebook that I see his reels every once in a while and he talks about, well, this means this and this means this and this means this, which means genocide. Like, okay. So yeah. This number is this number and this number means this number, and and therefore Masons believe in genocide. I'm like, Well, I mean never heard people just just i so you can get so there's David Guarente: I don't know where he's getting that information from. I I have many other examples where that would contradict that. Josh Kelley: Yeah, and you can you can get a you can you can get so deep into this that you just and y you can end up reading whatever you want to sometimes into these symbols. David Guarente: You have to have parameters and guidelines and look at the context. And the best way to get that context is actually if you are in a Masonic Lodge as an initiate, a candidate, passed to the degree of fellowcraft and then raised as in the sublime degree of Master Mason. Josh Kelley: Yeah, it gives you a contact to actually understand Freemasonry and figure out what it is we're doing. And what you find in the end is not about controlling the world, it's about controlling ourselves. Yeah. David Guarente: You can't control the world anyway, and you definitely can't control it if you can't control yourself. Josh Kelley: Exactly. So you start start with yourself. And as I change myself, I change the people around me. because because I'm different, other people ha are are different. And that's and that's a that's a good thing. That's what's that's what it's about. how do you change the world one person at a time? You know, you don't you can't just throw it all in one box basket. So What about care comparison? Contemplation is another another one I had written down here. what does a symbol mean when I sit with it personally? Now that comes this comes into a more personal thing. And I talk a lot about this in the path of light. sitting with a symbol, thinking about that symbol. I know a lot of guys who would do that with tarot cards. They'll draw a tarot card and they'll look at the tarot card and they'll start and they'll look at the different pictures on the tarot card and they'll sit there and pull and draw meaning from that. tarot card from that you know for their and and and they let that card read them and but it's contemplated with sitting with a symbol person what is it what does a symbol reveal when you're sitting with it personally what questions does it raise you know why is this here you know why does this look like this you know why is there a sword pointed at a heart in that in that master basin degree You know, what that symbol when they should when they talk about that symbol in the lecture, what does that mean? the arc and the and the anchor. what does that mean? the the setting ball, the the coffin, the sprig of acacia. I mean, there's these different these different things that are just symbols that we see, but what what does that mean? And when we sit with that a little bit and we sit personally, what I have found in my personal contemplation and meditation is that I do I do actually draw some meaning out of it for me. What does this mean to me? you know, I know the the what the what the lecturer said that symbol means. So now I'm thinking about, well, what how do I apply this to my life? When we start doing that, that's when we actually we contemplate it, when we meditate on that, it does help. It does change that, it helps us be able to understand what it what it means for us. And I I do like one thing that Michael Griggs said. And we'll have to have him I'll have to interview him for a soon here for for one of my voices in mate modern nature. I think he's a great voice. He's a younger a younger brother and he's a he seems like a he really he really thinks a quite a bit. But one thing he was saying is is when I was thinking about this when when I saw this symbol, I thought why does this fit in? Why do we have a mathematical equation as a symbol? And And he said I sat with it for a while. I thought about it for a while. And and when I did, you know, it hit me and now I can't unsee it. You know, it's about faith to him. And that's valid, a hundred percent valid, you know, that square, you know, if you if the square is right, the equation works out. David Guarente: All three squares have to be in correct position. Josh Kelley: Yep. So if that so if that square is a right angle, you know, then then those then then the equation works out. and it's that that idea of faith. You know, if my faith is well founded in then the things around me, the things in my life are gonna work out. and that's a that's a great and it's a proof of concept, you know. so that David Guarente: You have faith that they'll work out if it's all done correctly. Josh Kelley: Right, exactly. So so it's that that contemplation part of it. And and I found when I when I contemplate. Do do you find that as well when you contemplate some of the you you've written a lot. David Guarente: I what I thought about was the numerology or the numbers again tied in also. And it some of it is mathematics, which is one of the several liberal arts and sciences we talk about in the fellowcraft degree. So by the time we received the forty-seventh problem of Euclid in the Master Mason degree, we have already been exposed to somewhat the information regarding mathematics, or we call it arithmetic and so forth. Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: Music, music musical notes have mathematical parameters. I'm not a musician, but I I Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: understand that concept and I appreciate it. I also think it's in astronomy Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: everywhere. I mean look at all the formulas that the quantum physicists will write out with numerol numerically and still and have it make sense to them somewhat with some you know margin of error. They're still learning and discovering themselves. Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: But that has to do with the universe. So I tie it in with astronomy. It's their way of making sense out of the universe, quantum physics, and so forth. But I look at to make that triangle emerge in that specific symbol, you have to have three squares of four corners. Four times three is twelve. Where else do we see twelve come up again over and over and over again in our ritual? Josh Kelley: Twelve craftsmen, twelve. Yeah. Right. David Guarente: And I'm not just talking about Blue Lodge and the Master Mason degree, and you know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about York Right also. Josh Kelley: Scottish race. Mm-hmm. David Guarente: and Scottish Right, yes, definitely. I'm thinking of also Josh Kelley: Yeah, David Guarente: the 12 symbols. of that zodiac around the ecliptic, around Josh Kelley: of the mass formation degree. Yep. David Guarente: that circle. So now you have a circle also emerging from that symbol that you did not see at all. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Exactly. David Guarente: Also, a representative of deity. So if you didn't understand the triangle, let's give it to you again if you really delve deeper. Now you got the circle too. So there's no doubt anymore. Josh Kelley: Yeah, I mean, well the the square the square is a f i i is a it's an virtue. It's the fourth part of a circle, it says, you know. It's David Guarente: 90-degree angle or the fourth part of a circle. And it actually says that in the fellowcraft degree opening, yes. So there's like little clues Josh Kelley: Yep. It does. It does. So David Guarente: implanted in there. So if you take all these clues and you pay attention, you really sit down and study them and you discuss them in person or virtually with your brothers. Don't think you're gonna come up with all the answers by yourself in a vacuum, because you can only come up with so much. But you guys think of things all the time I wished I thought of. And I'm like, shoot, I should have known that. It just took me a Josh Kelley: Well, I mean yeah. David Guarente: little longer to get it. But luckily I talked to you and I figured it out. But so these are Josh Kelley: Well I look at your David Guarente: the multi-layers we're talking about that complement each other. They do not contradict each other. But these symbols are hidden Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: deliberately in the ritual. But They're giving clues for those who are astute enough to look for who have the desire to seek and look for them and piece them all together. There's your context also, in addition to who's speaking it. What does that person represent? Where's he standing in the lodge when he's doing it? What does he represent? Josh Kelley: Right. Right. Well you've lectured quite a bit on the on the symbols of the craft, on craft masonry, the blue lodge symbols, and you've written PowerPoint presentations and such on the on all the on the esoteric meaning behind the degrees and and and I know I David Guarente: All three Blue Lodge degrees and the Holy Royal Arch degree of the York right. Yes, that's a good that's a Probably the deepest one overall 'cause it's a synthesis of everything. But I understand Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: not many brothers go to the York right or through chapters, so I don't provide that to them unless they've gone through those degrees. But this is information like you said, Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: does David have all the answers? Because he read sixty plus books at the Grand Lodge Library up in New England back when he lived there and he c took all this information Josh Kelley: Hm. Right. David Guarente: from what all these people were saying and he put all together on a slide in a keynote or PowerPoint presentation and then made a a whole thing for the degree about it, for the hidden symbolism Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: and esoteric meaning behind the degrees. There are things I mean there's so many books out there I can't read all of them. So there's something somebody else will take that maybe he came up with himself through his own introspection, through contemplation and meditation. Based on his experiences in Laja through the degrees that he could provide to me that I didn't even have in there because I ran out of room. I wish I had that in Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: there. But these are works in progress. Just because I they're created doesn't mean they're the end all and be all. There is so much more out there that I have not even come across yet that others somebody else may have in a a different book I've never even read. And it meant something Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: to them. And it also means that. So I would say whoever's got this, if you want to feel free and add to what I provide. feel free to I don't have a copyright on it this knowledge is for the seekers and if you can add to it and just type it in and create your and redo the PowerPoint in your own way it means more to you please that's the purpose of it you're not gonna make me upset I want that Josh Kelley: Yeah. Same with my book same with the books I've written, man. Take it, make it your own, you know. You you it's that it's knowledge. Knowledge David Guarente: Yeah, make it your own. Yeah. Make Josh Kelley: should knowledge is free. even though I charge even though I charge my books. David Guarente: It should be free. Well, you spend a lot of money to create those books for everybody to begin with, and you publish them Josh Kelley: Yeah. Well that's David Guarente: and print them and all that, so Josh Kelley: Well thanks. And then you're on now on my board making sure that I actually try to stop David Guarente: Well that's Aaron mostly 'cause he's he holds the purse strings tighter than anybody I've ever seen. Even the Italians. He's Aaron Jones, if you're listening, you're doing a great job. Josh Kelley: He he does. Aaron Aaron Jones, Aaron Jones has some tight yeah, he we we love you, Aaron, but man, just loosen up a little bit sometimes. Actually, you know, we'll have money because of him. So so instead of spending all the money, so or giving it away. and so and that's one thing Lee Cook tells me all the time, every time I'm You know, every time somebody's initiated in in our lodge, I I give them a copy of Practical Freemasonry. I'm like, Hey, you know, i I wrote this as a as a when I was mentoring. I'd like take this and start start reading it and then we can start talking about it. And he's like, You gotta stop giving away your book, Josh and you gotta but yeah. David Guarente: Well, I believe that they need some skin in the game. If Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: if they haven't contributed at all and they who knows, they may drop they may you may not see them again. Or they they'll Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: thanks for the book and then he'll never he'll sit on the bookshelf, he'll never read it. But if he's mentored properly Josh Kelley: That's and you know, so then. David Guarente: and he pays for it Now it has value. I've just put something out. Now I want to get something out of this. I am more inclined to read it now and learn about this than I would otherwise. Josh Kelley: That's a great that is a good perspective. I need to keep that in mind. So I just wanna but all right. David Guarente: There's a there's a point where generosity you gotta keep that at due bounds too. Josh Kelley: That's true. That's true. So yeah. So so then and then the final and I think the the the last really thing when we're talking about the the method, context, understand the context, understand plus explicit Masonic teaching, the tradition, the comparison, the contemplation. And my personal favorite, of course, is application. how does it apply? Because knowledge without education without application is of no value. It's you you've got to be able to understand it. and not just understand it, but apply it to your life. And that's that's kind of my focus when I'm looking at so how do I apply this particular thing I just learned about this symbol to my life? And I think that's when it becomes meaningful to us. And I think and I think a lot of us we have these symbols that we've looked at for years, these symbols that really are hold deep value to us, and now. The reason why is because we've been able to draw something that we can apply to our lives in it. you just understand a lot about the all know all about these symbols, but you don't apply them. David Guarente: But what good is it really? You're not helping yourself and you're not helping anybody else. Not Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: really. You've gone down a rabbit hole, it's to the extent that it's the extreme. And what those parameters are teaching us in that circumpunk symbol is don't go to the extremes. Don't go there's a certain point on either side that you don't go past. Josh Kelley: Right. All right. So let's let's go down a rabbit hole here. So let's talk about the rough ashler and the perfect ashlar. So so there's there's different levels of of understanding of the of this. Like you you mentioned, there's different levels and different ways of interpreting it. So so I first level I'd look at is the literal object. What does that what do we know about that what is that physical that literal object? The The ashlar is a stone prepared for the use in construction. A rough ashler is unfinished. A perfect ashler, and the word perfect really derives from words that means completed, not without error David Guarente: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: at all. It's completed. when I think of the perfect ashlar, I think of the completed ashler. David Guarente: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: that's that's just been something a mental device I've used to understand the word perfect better. It's not about perfection, about being without error. It's about completing. that's maybe that's just me, but that's what I that's kind of the way I I'd like to think about it. So David Guarente: Well people misinterpret the word perfect, like you can't do no wrong. Who are you? You know, you're you're this perfect person that doesn't exist. We can say more perfect, Ashler, than the day before, Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. A more perfect Ashley, yeah. David Guarente: but perfection Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: with humans, how is that possible? Josh Kelley: Yeah. And I would contend that it's it's not possible in the end. we've got to w we'll always have something we're working on. David Guarente: Im even the country we're to make a more perfect union. Doesn't say a perfect union, it says more perfect union. Josh Kelley: Yeah. And that's that's why I always talk about the Path of Light book. That's one of the first things I tell people, I'm hoping it's never finished. Because that means that I have I've stopped growing. and some of my viewpoints may have it may differ a little bit more, maybe deeper than they were the first when I first wrote all these things down on paper. You know, the way I the way I contemplate things may have changed a little bit and and it should. so So we have the so go go because I'm working more toward the perfect ashler. So the literal object. So so questions we ask in this is why do builders care so much about the shape of an individual stone and what happens when an improperly prepared stone is placed into a structure. So this is if you have if you're talking about the physical object, the literal object, if you have something that's just off, it's not completely square. and you try to fit it into a building, what happens to that building? David Guarente: The building collapses. Josh Kelley: Yeah, eventually it could collapse. it it definitely is not have a solid foundation. I see that a lot in construction sales. You go to a house and and there's been a little bit of in Missouri, we have a lot of sinkholes and settling and things that happen and there are voids underneath the ground because you go you dig down like not even half an inch and you hit rocks, you know, here because and as those rocks Yeah. David Guarente: Limestone caves, a lot of karst environment. Josh Kelley: Yeah, and as as it shifts, you know, as that ground shifts, it it does because we have a fault line in Missouri as well. So as that ground shifts David Guarente: Several Josh Kelley: and moves, yeah, as as the ground shifts and moves, then the foundations change. And then so have when you start, but when you start off from the very beginning off kilter, when you start off and be at the very beginning, not level or that physical object has issues. So we start with that literal object. You know, we understand this for ashlar and what it is. You know, it is a stone to put into a building. So we take it a step further. Level two is really that Masonic lesson. What is that Ashler teaching us? So what do you think when we're thinking of we we know what the physical object is. So what do we what do you tell us what you think about that, the Masonic lesson behind that and what it means. David Guarente: So the ashlar is as a stone is dense, heavy, in a rough state not formed by any kind of deliberate work upon its appearance and that could mean for us inner appearance as well as outward. And because of that, that is the place that all people start from in the beginning before they work on themselves. I mean you could your parents Josh Kelley: Hmm. David Guarente: can get you to a certain point, but we know very well That these kids are gonna do whatever they want, regardless of what you say or teach them. We think, Josh Kelley: That's true. David Guarente: well, we'll we'll teach them to be great people like us. They have all our faults too built in. They have to overcome those Josh Kelley: Hmm. Yeah. David Guarente: and their own that are inherent that we may not have. So, how do Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: we take something that's that physical, material, heavy, dense, and shape it in such a way That now it can fit with others that are like it also well fit in order to build something of lasting value and legacy going forward to the future for the betterment of all of them so they don't collapse. They fit together nicely. Like the great architect of the universe creating the heavens and everything in it of the universe. Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: Now we can do that with our own innerverse and that manifests itself as a mirror reflecting back on us or to us what we see out there based on how we've Josh Kelley: Hmm. David Guarente: worked on that Ashler and made it more perfect, more complete. Josh Kelley: Yeah. So so would you say that we are the ones working on the Ashler or sometimes or is it some outside force as well? David Guarente: I don't think it's just us. I think there is something inside certain people more than others that drives them To think about and act on these things. To be better than they were the day before. And we know there's Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: plenty of distractions in this world, and a lot of people are satisfied with just being immersed in those distractions and nothing else. Do they have the potential if they were seekers and they wanted to seek it out and do something about it? Josh Kelley: True. This is David Guarente: Yes, a lot of them. But not most of them probably won't. It's sad, Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: it's unfortunate. I wish it was not that way. But based on my observance, fifty years living, this is what I've observed. So what do I do? I seek out like-minded stones who I Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: can fit well with to build something better than what we are individually. So the sum becomes Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: greater than you know what the parts consist of. Or I should say the whole is greater than the sum of its parts is a better way to say it. Josh Kelley: Yeah. And and that's why the the very first tenant of Freemasonry is brotherly love. the it's it's brotherly love. It it's it's helping your brothers. And and it comes more than just and it is a mystical tie, I think, between brothers. And it's it there's there's there's something different in in masonry that's just it's it's maybe it's maybe it's esoteric, maybe it's so there's some kind of connection we have with all of our brothers that That really it's it's that that shared common thing that we have with with us. And it's the it's a ritual, understanding that, hey, this guy's gone through the same thing I've gone through. He understands, he's been through the initiation, he's been through he he he has made the same obligations I have made. and that and the the Bible says iron sharpens iron. So does a man the countenance of his friend. you know, so it's we're while we are solely responsible for our own inner temple. We're not solely responsible for shaping it. Our brothers help us. Exactly. Yep. David Guarente: Why should we go through this alone? We have brothers to help us. We have the grand architect of the universe helping us. But we do we really need anything else? We c but we can't do it all on our own, a hundred like we could with that outside assistance. Josh Kelley: Right. I'm I'm a better man because my wife, being being in a relationship with my wife and her pointing out things that I may not see at first. I mean, how many of us have our wives that point out things to us? I think we can all raise our hands on that. So, hey, there's something, you know, hey, you you ever thought about this? You know, and and we and we start we we we shape each other. my my wife helps shape me. make me a kinder person than I than I was when I met her. and just be able to see things from other people's point of view when I may not have. we all have the tendency to become selfish and look at ourselves only and to look outside of ourselves and see how we can help other people. when I'm at lodge I I'm being more and more intentional about taking the time to sit down with brothers and talk to them. I get so busy sometimes being pulled left and right with all the different responsibilities that we have that it's it's it's It's difficult for me because I want to do everything to stop, let someone else do it and take the time doing the work and actually sitting down with people and helping them and mentoring them. then that's just it it's important for us to be able to do that, I think. and that's part of shaping it. and a brother recently, I asked I asked a brother for some feedback. You know, I had a And and the brother gave me some feedback. Now some of it was very tough to hear. and you know, some of it hurt a little bit. But when I took a step back and tried to see that myself from his perspective, it helped me realize, well, I can see where he's getting that. I see, I can see where he's coming from in that instance. And so that was an example of a brother helping to shape me. to focus maybe r reshift my focus a little bit more toward things that are more important. and I I I David Guarente: Mean checks and balances. We need that checks and balances from outside Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: influences to kind of keep Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah. It's like David Guarente: us so we don't get inflated with our ego. We Josh Kelley: Right. Yeah. David Guarente: do need that, because otherwise, if it's just us, we're in an echo chamber. Whatever I yell out is gonna come right back to me because that's what I Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: think I wanna hear, but I don't want to change. Josh Kelley: Like Lee, you know, Lee said, Hey, you need to sell those books, man. You know, it's that little that little thing, you know, hey, y you know, you're you know, I I get that you want to give it away, you know, but you know, that's you also need to be able to provide for the ability to do more books, you know, and if you if it's constantly everything coming out of your pocket, you're giving everything away, then you end up running out of that ability and the to to give the craft. You're living the craft but you gotta also give the craft and sometimes giving the craft means you gotta you gotta you gotta bite the bullet and and then David Guarente: Well, just think of this, brother Josh. What if we were to give our degrees away for free? Josh Kelley: Hm. David Guarente: or there's no dues ever to pay to any lodge and this is for people who are not endowed. Josh Kelley: Right. Well at and that David Guarente: Would the people coming in appreciate what they're going through more when they have no skin in the game Josh Kelley: No. David Guarente: or less? It's the same with your books. Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. You're right. You're right. It's that value, you know, evaluate, you know, that's so yeah. So here here David's shaping me, helping shape me my my rough ashler as we go. Helping shape my ashler. David Guarente: I am helping to shape your ashlar externally. Yes. Josh Kelley: So and it comes down to perfect. You know, we we talked about the the word perfect. it's not flawlessness, it's it's it's it's completion, you know, becoming more and more complete in certain areas. But the Ashler also No, no, go ahead, go ahead. David Guarente: And think of I'm sorry, go ahead. So I was thinking also of a great symbol that we didn't even mention yet. We did touch on the Kabbalah slightly, but the Kabbalistic tree of life, and you have the three pillars Josh Kelley: Hmm. yeah. David Guarente: or three columns. So you have one on the the pillar of mercy all the way to the right and the pillar of severity all the way to the left. So you need that balance. So you don't want to be so generous that you just give away the house. Josh Kelley: Right. Right. David Guarente: You need that to be reined in by that opposite pole without going all the way to that extreme necessarily either and be a total miser. Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: You have to have that balance, that pivot point in the middle as the goal, that equilibrium. And that's a great symbol. Josh Kelley: It is. It is. It is a great symbol. David Guarente: And Freemasonry does it may not be a Masonic symbol per se, but we especially in the degrees of the York White and Scottish well Scottish White mostly, it's it's more implied and explained as it should be in those degrees, and it's a great one. And it really ties in with What we just went through in in Blue Lodge in those degrees as well. It really enhances Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: an understanding of that because it was not explained. And it's deliberately not explained. Even if you go through it, you have to want to seek it out. It's not just gonna be handed to you just because you went through the degrees. It's not here you go, you're enlightened now. No, it doesn't work like that either. So you basically, once you have that knowledge. And you've passed through that, you're passing through a different, you're passing through a color spectrum as well, which is a whole different set of symbols. So we say blue lodge. Blue is a symbol. We go through Josh Kelley: Right. Yeah. Yeah. David Guarente: York right. Chapter is what? Red, scarlet, crimson. What do you call it in Missouri? Is it Scarlet? Or crimson, which is like fervency and zeal, essentially, is Josh Kelley: Yeah. sc scar scarlet. Crim crimson, yeah, red. We say red. It's it's crimson. Yeah. David Guarente: colors. Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: And then cryptic masonry is purple. Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: So, I mean, you have these degrees going through, and even within the Holy Royal Arch, you have the veils, and each one is a different color, which is a symbol. Right? You have Josh Kelley: Yep. Right. David Guarente: the blue, you have the crimson, you have the purple, and the white. Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: And then on each one, there's a symbol of some kind of animal, which is a symbol Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: that ties in with the 12. Here's 12 again. Four of the 12 tribes of Israel have presented their symbols and are represented on each of those veils or banners in different directions, or as you're passing through all of them in a line with Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: each its own color. And each of those corresponds to a specific constellation in the sky. So now you have an old a multifaceted layered mix of all these Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: symbol symbology symbol systems. all overlapping and intermixing with each other, to enhance each other, not to contradict. Josh Kelley: Right, right. You know, as a I was a as a past master of a veil and now I'm the Royal Arch Captain, so I moved up a little bit more there. I'm still still at a veil there. But yeah, I I it's as you go through these even as you go through the chairs, you're looking at the symbol that you're that you're right there with, it it does it does make a open up quite a bit there too. So but let's so more than just the Ashler just fitting in with building and making it the question is why do we try to perfect the Ashler and I think it comes to the for us to fit in not only with other Freemasons and build a Masonic group but also our community. I think our community needs the lessons of Freemasonry. It needs to have people who are being honest, who are being j who who stand for justice, who who who live their obligations in public as well. the ethics and morals and the thing the teachings of Freemasonry, but temperance, David Guarente: Temperance and prudence. Josh Kelley: prudence. Yep. Yeah. Brotherly love, relief. it need the community needs David Guarente: Truth, fortitude. Josh Kelley: it. Yep. Fortitude, you know, it's these these are all the principles that our community needs. So I think as we the more we shape ourselves, The more we re we find how we can actually, the way more I hope we're finding how we can actually help shape our community and our in our nation, in our world. spreading that to spreading the the the brotherly love with that trial, you know, spreading the truth to other people. so it's I'm kind of got quite a bit here. So you got the builder, you know, the the person who's doing it. The symbol becomes even more interesting. We stop and look. stop looking only at the stone. There's also a builder of the stone. David Guarente: Who is the builder? Josh Kelley: Yep, exactly. And then David Guarente: The builder who builds, and then we live inside what he has built. Josh Kelley: Right. Exactly. is that the law? Is that humanity? Is that the is that the great architect? All those interpretations can operate at at different levels at different times and simultaneously even. and then we back bring it back at some point symbolism has to leave the logic. at some point symbolism has to leave our our our our our meditation, our contemplation. At some point it has to become practical. It has to be able to t to change us. Otherwise, there's no point in the symbol to begin with. is it David Guarente: No, it's just a rough acting class where we do like pageant Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: plays. Is that really Josh Kelley: Exactly. David Guarente: what we s what some people signed up for? 'Cause I don't understand that if that's what it is. I was like, really? Josh Kelley: No, no, exactly. David Guarente: You got nothing better to do with your time? If you're not getting anything more out of this? That's Josh Kelley: Yeah. If it's if it's just if it's just this little stuff we're doing here at the lodge, I mean, what's you know? David Guarente: Everybody needs a hobby, but Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah. But when you when you start living it out, you you do change it does change, you know. It it does that's that's what's important. And and and the question I always ask is, is the work ever completed? David Guarente: I don't think it's completed a hundred percent even to the day we died. And that's okay. You're gonna be much further along than you would have been otherwise, and who knows, you might I don't know if people believe in this or not. I don't even sure I'm a hundred percent on board with it, but if you do come back as somebody else, Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: maybe you'll get it right next time if you don't get it right this time. And maybe when you get right enough, then you don't have to keep coming back anymore at all. Josh Kelley: Yeah, if you're living that, you know, yeah, exactly. Those who believe in in in reincarnation, those who believe in going David Guarente: Samsara, yeah. You get off that wheel. Josh Kelley: Yeah, but there's something great something beyond us. You know, we we as Freemasons believe there's something greater and bigger than us. We just you know, i everybody defines it differently. David Guarente: Well, we first have to profess that from the very beginning. You cannot just think, I'm the greatest thing in the universe. I'm a hot shit, you know? sorry for Hotshot. Hotshot. Do that post edited. so Hotshot. So Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah. No, you're fine, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll say hot shot. Well, I mean all these shit in there 'cause I like shit. David Guarente: you have to really Yeah, well we talked about checks and balances, but Eventually you will have to a person would have to realize that there is something greater than themselves. They did not necessarily create themselves. There has to Josh Kelley: Mm. David Guarente: be something higher and greater out there. Otherwise, what's the point? What's the really keeps most people from being the worst passable person they can just because they think there's nothing else and they think they can get away with it? But if there's something greater in all C and I that's keeping Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: tabs on you inside yourself, you're keeping tabs on yourself and other people around you are helping you with that, then it starts that there would have to be, it makes sense that there's a great architect who's overseeing everything and you may not understand everything that was going you're ne we're never gonna understand everything that's going on. We're not our brains cannot handle that. But Josh Kelley: Nice. Right. David Guarente: we can get a slice of it and we can use it or utilize it more efficiently and more charitably And I'm using the ancient Latin meaning root of the word charity Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: where you don't have to deal with that because you're not gonna deal with all those negative fallouts because you're not immersing yourself in it, 'cause you're don't I mean, because why would you do that? Because you don't think there's anything better than yourself or higher than yourself. Josh Kelley: Right, right. And that's you know, it's important. Yeah, and that that's why we have to have that. Yeah, start. David Guarente: So you have to have you have to start from that place. otherwise these obligations you d won't mean anything. It's just you're just say repeating the words back. Josh Kelley: That's why Freemasonry does require that's why we do require a belief in a supreme being, so something greater than yourself. Because if you are the end. David Guarente: If you're the end all and be all, I'm sorry, I I might be passing through your world, but I don't agree with any of it. Josh Kelley: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what is your favorite symbol? What symbol is it right now, David, that you are sitting with the most? And what do you what do you what what what's on your mind with with your what's your symbol? David Guarente: I would say the all seeing eye. Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: As one that's not been covered yet by others recently. Because yes, forty seven Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: the problem of Euclid is fascinating. The circumpunct is fascinating and incredible also. But to go with someone or another symbol that has not been used or talked about recently by brethren, it I would pick the all see an eye. And it's not just this eye Josh Kelley: I'll see you in eye. David Guarente: in the sky watching everything you do and keeping like little he was naughty today and then he was nice and then he was naughty. It go Josh Kelley: It's not Santa Claus. David Guarente: Not Santa Claus, way deeper than that. And it's inside you, not necessarily out there. And I think I don't think a lot of people realize that. Josh Kelley: Hm, that's great. Great thoughts. Great thoughts for sure. David Guarente: And I tie this in with Eastern mysticism partially with the the all seeing eye being Josh Kelley: Uh-huh. David Guarente: the sixth chakra, the third eye chakra that opens. And you see the bindu on the Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah. David Guarente: the women that also that's that's what that represents. the ajna chakra, it's enlightenment. To get to that point Josh Kelley: Mm. David Guarente: and energies certain energies have to ascend up the spinal column. Some people call it or use a system called Kundalini, that could be one way of doing it. But basically what you're doing is you're taking that base energy, base matter, and you're sublimating it into something better and now you've become virtually a new person 'cause now you can kinda see things as they really are and you don't have to go with whatever the consensus is swaying you toward one way or another with all the distractions we're being bombarded with today. And that's why I have no social media. I have I'm not on the internet except to research certain things or watch certain videos and take notes. I don't need those distractions. All that's gonna do is prevent my energies from rising. It's gonna keep it down low and dissipate in nonproductive matters and means all the time. Josh Kelley: Yeah, absolutely. David Guarente: So that's what the that's what I'm seeing when I see the all see an eye. I'm thinking, what is this for a person? If they were to allow this, like the Bible says, let thine eye be single, I believe that it's referring to that. Illuminated. Or your outlook Josh Kelley: Yep. If your eye is single, your whole if your eye is single, your whole your whole body is full of light, it says. Yeah. David Guarente: and your perception of things is now illuminated, more so than ever before. And more so than probably ninety-nine percent of the people you'll ever come across in life. Josh Kelley: Mm. David Guarente: And they like staying in the in the north, shall we say, for those who know what that means. And Josh Kelley: Yep. Yep. David Guarente: so therefore they will never advance because they do not let themselves. Instead of blaming everybody else, I said, bring that shadow work back to yourself and work on yourself. Worry about that. Don't worry about everybody else. Josh Kelley: Hm. Everybody's looking for an outside savior in a way, instead of David Guarente: Outside savior, outside excuses Josh Kelley: Yep. David Guarente: to explain their behavior away or justify it. Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: And it is so unnecessary. It's wasted energy. It's dissipated. You don't even need to waste your time or effort doing that stuff. All C and I encompasses all that. And that's not something we're taught Josh Kelley: Yeah. Well the sym Absolutely. Well the symbol I've been sitting with David Guarente: in the Third degree. They don't go into this kind of detail. This is something you need to find out and seek for your well, we need to find out and seek for ourselves. Josh Kelley: Yeah, the symbol I've been actually focusing on a lot is have got a little bottle on my desk. I'm going to fill it with with white sand, but it's a skull, actually, believe it or not. yeah. David Guarente: okay. Josh Kelley: I've been actually sitting with that quite a bit and contemplating morality, mortality. you know, contemplating you know, as and I think what really got me focused on that was when I had a heat stroke not long ago. about a month, about a month and a a c a week or so ago. and that got me really thinking about you know, mortality, really thinking about, you know, what's, you know, what's most important to me? You know, what's what's the what's the most important thing? David Guarente: Where do you prioritize your time? Josh Kelley: Yeah, where do I prioritize my time? What what am I doing with my life? What do I want to leave as a legacy? What what do I and and you know, legacy is a big word, you know, but what do I want to leave behind to the brothers coming behind me? And you know, it's it's made my mentoring. more focused. It's that I'm good, brothers on mentoring and I'm being mentored, brothers, you know. we we all we all mentor and our mentors. And that's that is what makes masonry effective is when we mentor and we're mentored. but yeah that contemplating mortality is something that I've been focusing on quite a bit in my own personal life. because you know living like there Living like there is an end. because it does it does change your focus. You know, you don't want to waste as much time. You don't want to, you know, you want to make the most of the moments that you're being given because you're not promised those moments in the future. that's I think that's an important lesson. It's one of the lessons of the master mason degree. It's it's as you master masonry, you you have to contemplate actually from the very beginning before you even walk into a lodge room. there's chamber of reflection, which we are David Guarente: Chamber of Reflection, which hopefully the A Lodge who shall remain unnamed shall be the first to reinstitute within the Grand Lodge jurisdiction Josh Kelley: We're David Guarente: of Missouri. Josh Kelley: yeah, we're very excited well, there very there is a lot of excitement on that actually, so and movement on that front. So, but yeah, I I it would be, you know, this starting from the very beginning, understanding that, you know what, something's things are being made new. the Bible talks about old things are if if old things are passed away, all things are become new. And I think that's the you know, that's the teachings of that we need to to focus on, you know, and well there's there's so much meaning in that idea of mortality, but it's all not just mortality, the idea of of endings and beginnings. some things have to end for other things to begin. and that's not a negative thing. That's a that's a good thing. So these we all have symbols we're that we're looking at and and seeing for ourselves. So David Guarente: Well, that's where the circle comes in, the symbol of the circle we talked about earlier, not just with the circumpunct specifically all the time, but what it also infers is that it's a cyclical nature. It's everything's always in flux. There's change is a universal constant. And Josh Kelley: Right. David Guarente: we have to be okay with that. And death and rebirth, Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah. And David Guarente: those are part of that cycle. Josh Kelley: Right. And the circles always kind of represented spirituality in in in many cultures. You know, that there is something outside of ourselves. and I know science tries to ignore that, I I feel. Some some areas, it's not all scientists, but some scientists try to ignore that completely and say, well, there's there's there's nothing beyond ourselves. You know, it's it's just we are our synopsis fire, you know, it's all it's all the but you know there's there is i if we understand there is something greater and something deeper, then that's that's the that's the important David Guarente: So either if you don't believe that, we're probably a cosmic accident. And Josh Kelley: Yep. David Guarente: when you die, that's it. Who cares? Or Josh Kelley: Okay. David Guarente: you look for clues all around you in nature and in the heavens Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. David Guarente: and the human body, and you see patterns emerge, even at a subatomic level, which we can now Josh Kelley: Yep. David Guarente: see now, which they never could be able to do before that we know of. And now you see a certain geometry to everything. a sacred geometry which has shapes Josh Kelley: A gold golden s yep. David Guarente: which are symbols. So it's embedded Josh Kelley: Yep. David Guarente: in nature. Symbols are everywhere. But that's not to diminish Josh Kelley: Yeah. David Guarente: that. What they represent each to us, and there are multiple meanings that they you could see a symbol of a color or a flag or an im an image of some sort, and it means those things, but it also means so much greater. Josh Kelley: Yeah, if there is a cre if there is a creator, then one would one would expect the creator to have left behind a fingerprint on his creation. the great architect universe would have left behind a his fingerprint. and so yeah. Well let's let's kind of close up. We talked quite a bit here. So and So we don't simply study symbols. We live with them. And and sometimes if we stay with them long enough, the symbol begins to reveal something about us. and as it should. And if we do reveal something about us, then it could change us. And if it can change us, it can change the world. So join us next. David Guarente: Because we see it reflected back to us, our own inner world, what we see out there. Josh Kelley: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. And David Guarente: We become, in essence, the symbol. Just like Josh Kelley: We do. David Guarente: the candidate becomes the symbol of the working tools, several of them, when they are going through their positions at the ultra at certain in during the three degrees. Josh Kelley: Yep. Exactly. So thanks for joining us and going down the rabbit hole this this this David Guarente: Thank you. Josh Kelley: month with and David Garente, all of our viewers, thank you so much. next join us next time on down the rabbit hole with Josh and Dave and David and we'll go through some we'll we'll explore the esoteric side of Freemasonry a little bit further. So David, once again, love having you, brother. And you know, I will see David Guarente: Thank you, brother. Josh Kelley: you sooner than we expect. So David Guarente: Thank you audience for watching. We appreciate it. Thank you. Josh Kelley: All right. Thanks guys.