Latest / The Source – The Jorgensen Land & Cattle Podcast / Episode 10: Ideal Beef Evaluation Deep Dive with Nick Jorgensen
Transcript
- speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Over a hundred years of experience lie in ideal South Dakota. The team at Jorgenson Lanning Cattle is going to take the time to offer insight into that experience along with many other industry experts. If you're ready to learn and grow, this is the Source. Good morning folks. Jamie Wolf back with the Source. ⁓ happy to have you guys with us. ⁓ the earliest recording we've ever done. It is 720 in the morning. So I'm gonna be drinking lots of coffee. ⁓ Joined by one of my favorite guests to have on because ⁓ Nick Jorgensen is a wealth of information at Jorgensen Landing Cattle. And ⁓ you never know where the conversation will go when it's him and I sitting down. we're recording this right after the fourth of July. So Nick, how was your fourth? That's good. speaker-1: Good. Yeah. A lot of fun. Beautiful weekend. I mean, you know, the fourth in South Dakota it can be a hundred and ten degrees. It was beautiful. Yep. ⁓ a lot of kids, so it was it was busy, but how was yours? speaker-0: ⁓ it was it was good. I got to got to scratch the itch and go get a little money out of them in Fort Pierce, so that always makes me happy. Well, I broke even at best, so we'll leave it at that. ⁓ Nick, I recorded an episode with with Lane Geis at Zoetta's on ⁓ on genomics, and him and I just talked about the sausage making. You know, we talked about speaker-1: Good for you because all we did was spend money. Yeah. speaker-0: HD 50K tests, chips, databases, ⁓ but we didn't talk any product specifics. ⁓ today I want to get into with you Jorgensen Landon Cattles, ideal beef evaluation, and ideal beef genetics. speaker-1: Yep. speaker-0: And ⁓ you guys have heard this mentioned previously on several different episodes, and we talk about it all the time, but maybe we haven't done the best job of truly explaining, first of all, the why behind the ideal beef evaluation, how that became ideal beef genetics and a full breeding system that we can offer to commercial customers. So, where I want to start, Nick, is ⁓ just explain. What IBG and IBE is, and then we're gonna dive in a little bit on the why Jorgens and Lanic cattle has their own genetic valuation. speaker-1: Yeah, sounds good. So this all started. We were approached by Zoetis in 2018. And at the time, ⁓ they were wanting to expand, obviously grow their genetics business, right? On their on the HD fifty K test. And Our our operation is unique in a lot of ways, but ⁓ one of the things that Zoetis knew because we'd been using their products for a long time, Zoetis knew the depth of phenotypic information that we had at our disposal. Yep. And not only just phenotypic information, because look, feedlots have tons of phenotypic information. But the difference was it was phenotypic information on breeding stock. ⁓ to an extent that you're probably not gonna find almost anywhere else in the world. Absolutely not. Yeah. So you know I a I think at at the time, database was well over probably eighty thousand animals, ⁓ largely breeding stock females and and breeding stock bulls. And behind that was tons of information on semen tests, on prague checks, you know, all breeding stock related things. And so, they they asked if we wanted to leverage that data into our own herd specific genetic evaluation. And to my knowledge, I if I get this wrong, I apologize. But I think we were one of Two ranches that were approached and actually ended up doing this, the other being Leechmans. Leechman's right, which is the whole basis of the inherit test that Zoetis has now that they make commercially available to people. And those two databases were a lot different. Leechman's had arguably more information, but they also have multiple breeds and other stuff like that. Ours was very focused around black Angus cattle. Right. And so what we did at the time on when we agreed to do it was we actually went back through the semen tanks and it may have been pulled one straw on every single of the bulls that we had on inventory at the time. Maybe a couple that we didn't have enough inventory on that we didn't want to waste it, so to speak. speaker-0: And we we picked those up later, so speaker-1: I think it was I think it was like 250 or 270 kind of foundation bulls, you know, going all the way back to Skyline Mirror. Yep. ⁓ you know, from nineteen fifty-eight. ⁓ and then and then forward, right? And then what we immediately embarked on doing was, well, and let me step back. So we not only did we have a really good set of data. But we were kind of at a point where we were really starting to grow the bull business. Right. And so we saw the amount of data that we were gathering starting to really kind of compound. Absolutely. And I think at that point in time we were purchasing well over or marketing, you know, from our cooperators, 2,000 to 2,500 bulls. That number today is closer to 3,500 or 4,000. But it was generating a lot of new records every year. And speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: So, you know, the idea of having a our own genetic evaluation was pretty appealing to us ⁓ at the time for for several reasons, which I'd I'd like to talk about for for just a few minutes. The first was our our situation here is once again very unique in that we largely market, you know, what the industry would call a commercial bull. Quote unquote. A quote unquote. We don't like to call them that. And we'll explain why in a minute. ⁓ but they they were commercial bulls. And When we would market these to people, we didn't have a way to generate GEPDs on these animals or any kind of ⁓ you know, performance indicators outside of like the actual measured weaning weight, the actual measured yearling weight. And you know, and you can calculate an EPD to a degree off that. If you know something about the sire and you know something about the dam, you can speaker-0: It's the old school that Lane and I talked about in our interview was it's the old school parental parental average that you make a breeding value out of. speaker-1: breeding value. So that's what it was. And you know that that that data was better than no data. But it wasn't as good as what we were getting on our purely registered bulls through the Angus Association and through what what the name of their test was at the time. I just through AGI. Yeah, AGI. speaker-0: Right, absolutely. So we can ⁓ speaker-1: See this disparity, right? And like the small subset, which it's markedly a small subset of bowls we were marketing back in 2018 that had these G E P D's and we we knew they were useful. And then this huge subset that we just we couldn't get them on. Right. Right. It was impossible to get them. And so we looked at it from a standpoint of, well, this gives us the ability to provide better information to our customers and for us to make better decisions. ⁓ So so that was that was one of the reasons that that we signed on with Zoetis. there were two others, and these are a little bit more contentious, but you know, I'll just talk about from our side of the coin why we did what we did. Absolutely. ⁓ and that was around data ownership. Yep. Right? ⁓ right around that time, it had been just a little sooner than that, the American Angus Association made it very clear that when you paid for a test through Angus genetics got results. You had access to the results, but they were not yours. They are Angus's results. So that's the that's the decision that they made. Yep. Right. Well, we look at it and say, well, hey, you know, we're spending X amount of dollars a year. We're breeding these cattle and we're collecting these phenotypes. Yes, I understand we don't have the model, but this it's all fed by our data. It's just run through and we didn't like it. Right. And I think you would probably find if you sat down with a lot of producers, they would probably say the same thing. Don't like that. Yeah. If I ever want my information and and I have to get permission from you to get it on my cattle that I breed and I own. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Well, and you and you can't go get you can't get Angus to kick you the genotypes back out to put ⁓ through another evaluation. speaker-1: You can get all the results that you want, but if you truly want the genotype file, you'll you cannot get it. Right. So what Zoetis offered us was the complete opposite in that listen, this this data is 100% yours. You just say the word and the genotypes are at your disposal. And they have 100% followed through on that. ⁓ absolutely. We've used, you know, w we are a partner with them. We intend to be a partner with Zoetis for an extremely long time. But there have been instances where we've wanted genotypes to go look investigate other products that they didn't have. ⁓ a really good example is bovine congestive heart failure, which when we first started using that, you can get it through Zoetis now, but several years ago it was only available at Simplot. Yep. And we needed the genotypes for them to be able to do that. And it was a file transfer. speaker-0: And sending cattle into Triple A that ⁓ we've had to send in to get parentage for a customer. So Edis has been super easy to work with on that. If you needed to go the other way with it, not gonna happen. speaker-1: Not good. Not gonna happen. Yeah. So fundamentally that that flexibility and that and that freedom to to truly own our data was was probably the second biggest part. Like the first biggest was we're just, man, this is ⁓ amazing information that we can use to to make the bull buying experience better for our customers and make, you know, to whatever degree we can better breeding decisions on our ranch, even though we had, you know, all those tools already at our disposal from a registered standpoint. Third thing that that you know we found a lot of value in that maybe we didn't we discounted at first was we have 100% ⁓ creative control, if you will. Creative is probably not the best word, but strategic control of that evaluation. ⁓ Cody likes to say You know, AGI is controlled by the Angus Association Board of Directors. Or some board of people from across the United States, different operations, things like that. Ours is controlled by, well, for at the end of the day, Cody and I. Right. Right. Now we got a really good team that helps advise us on that, but we ultimately control Cody and I make the calls on that. And what it's enabled us to do is have A really good research and development pipeline, which Zoetis has opened up their team for us to use that. Right. ⁓ to develop new traits. And one of the first things we did was we developed a breeding soundness exam EPD, ⁓ which is has grown into an extremely valuable tool for us from a from a procurement and management side of these young bulls. Right. And the whole idea is is it's a it's a predictor of whether that bull is likely to pass his first semen test. Right. Right. At least for The genomic side, we can't control environment, we can observe it, but on the genomic side, we've got a really good trait and it works really well for us. That would have been a gigantic ⁓ undertaking, right? And and Angus, they develop new traits, you all these evaluations develop new traits. But what was important for us is It was traits we wanted. Right. Not traits that some other ranch wanted, that some customer in Kentucky wanted, or some customer in Oregon, or Arizona, or South Dakota. It was what we felt was best for our operation and for our customers. speaker-0: Yeah, it's not functional longevity. Yep. ⁓ and I I think Nick, we're gonna touch on it because I think it's worth noting. Ideal beef evaluation, age of the animal does not impact genomic output. And we're just gonna point this one out. ⁓ the bullets on the screen right now, and we're gonna let producer Boston do some editing later again. Thank you for getting up early this morning, Boston. speaker-1: Yeah, it doesn't. speaker-0: ⁓ Skyline Mare 2058. This is an anchor bull in this program from clear back to nineteen fifty-eight. They haven't mangus GS tested. The bull is minus twenty three wean and weight and minus thirty four yearland weight. speaker-1: Garbage. At Angus. speaker-0: Week garbage. We have a we have a son that last year we used 120 units out of and he cleaned up cows. This year we used 150 units and cleaned up cows. The calves are as competitive as anything out of new top 10% type genetics. Yep. So when you guys see IBE EPDs versus Angus EPDs. You don't see big extremes. No. They're they're a lot tighter. And I just it's worth pointing out that ⁓ there is a significant difference. speaker-1: There's a significant difference. And and you see it on both sides, right? You see it on a bowl like this that he just he looks horrible at Angus. And what what you find in the ideal beef evaluation is it's it's more centered towards the mean, right? Matter of fact I think he's Yeah, he's he's very average at work. speaker-0: He's very average. Yeah, and that's we knew the data says that that is exactly what he is. Yes. And the genomics reflect that that's what speaker-1: And then you'll s but you see the same thing on the high side, right? An animal where it shows up with a what a a 150, 160 or higher, you know, yearling weight or, you know, whatever the numbers are, it those stellar bowls even converge a little bit more. Right. And look, you could argue, are are you are you compressing, right, the the actual genetic difference there? I think my argument is we've got enough animals in our database to show that no, we're not. I mean, there's not. that huge of a of an actual difference. And so it gets into the question of like why does why does this happen? Right. And I guess here's what here's just what I would say about the ideal beef valuation. It is not a competitive mechanism. speaker-0: Right. Exactly. speaker-1: Right. We don't have there's no incentive for anyone we control the data that goes into it. A hundred and ten percent. Yep. We we make the call of what ranches we let. Well ⁓ let me step that back. Anyone could call that has Angus cattle and and run tests and get a ideal beef evaluation test. Absolutely. Anyone could. Yep. What we control is whose data actually gets in and informs the evaluation. Yes. That's probably the best way to speaker-0: Yeah, that's ⁓ speaker-1: You can get results, anyone can get results. But to take your phenotypic data and put it in as a piece that that informs these EPDs, we control that tightly. Yep. Right. And what that's helps us do is remove it removes bad removes the risk of bad data and bad actors. Yep. Right. And we don't have an immense amount of people. You know, the the circle is is 25 ranches. Yep. More or less. Just call it that. That bring data into this system. And it's not a competitive mechanism, right? So they're all Angus producers, lar commercial Angus producers, ⁓ that have largely used our genetics, right? So the the the gene pool is tighter. Yep. So that actually makes it easier to get predictions, right? And we don't give any so if if if you're a commercial or excuse me, if you're a genetic partner of ours and I'm a genetic partner. There's no mechanism there where I do better if my numbers are better than yours. Right. Let's talk about Angus for a minute. Yep. It is one well, and maybe not even Angus, but just other evaluations that exist out there. Yep. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: It is absolutely a competitive mechanism. I am incentivized for my weaning weight and yearling weight EPDs or whatever, dollar B, whatever the trade is at the time that everyone thinks is important. I'm incentivized to drive that number as high as I possibly can in any way that I can do it. Right? Am I saying that people cheat and and stuff like that? I'm I'm not directly saying that, but speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: When the incentive is there, yes, people are gonna find a way to maximize it. Yes. Right. They're gonna game it however they can. Yep. It's just the way things go. And it it's impossible for for a for a place for a a large evaluation like AGI to police that to any significant degree. speaker-0: What what are they gonna do? speaker-1: I don't know. Show up and watch you wake out, show up and watch you on the scale. See, like for us, and I I'll just be one hundred percent honest, the only place that our evaluation could get gamed if you really wanted to game it. You know, if you were a genetic partner, like, man, how do I make my numbers better would be to lie on your birth weights. speaker-0: Yeah, potentially fudge a birthday. Other than that, yeah. Everything else gets speaker-1: Birth date and birth weight. Everything else gets taken care of here. Yep. And I've got no reason to take genetic partners' calves, gen genetic partners A calves, and put 50 extra pounds on the scale and then take it off and we run genetic partner B's calves through, right? It just it makes no it makes no sense. Right. Not even ours, because there's no competitive reason to do that. speaker-0: And the major thing here, it's a selection tool, not a marketing tool. It is a selection tool. We want to identify the best ones. We want to identify the worst ones. And those are all relative statements. speaker-1: It's a selection tool. Now those those first, first it is a selection tool. Now it does have the value of being a marketing tool once that selection has been made. Absolutely, yes. Right. And and I think you'll see here in a little bit. I mean, we have a whole semen catalog that is built on, you know, that we we market those traits. Right. But that's not done until we've made the call from a selection standpoint there. Yep. But yeah, so so back to, you know, it's just the the the truth and accuracy and control that we have over this thing. ⁓ you know, you you put all those four things together and it really brings together the whole this is why we did and still maintain the ideal beef valuation. speaker-0: And I think just ⁓ one thing to to touch back on a conversation again with Lane about the data population representing the set of cattle in the evaluation and genetic correlation between them. Remember Jorgensen Landon cattle, the pedigrees touch ninety-four percent of the Angus breed. We can cover anything that's Angus based out of our evaluation. There's very little that just is gonna be something completely off the wall, especially at this point where you know Cody has stepped out and used a few different sires. We have those genotypes involved. Very, very much a comprehensive Angus. speaker-1: Very few that would database. Now admittedly what we can't do is I we can't test a a half-blood cementol bowl. Right. Right. We can't test a full blood cementol bowl. Red Angus probably isn't it's it's it's centered around Angus, but guess what? That's the business that we're in. We don't need it to do anything else. Right? speaker-0: Absolutely. So Nick, we've developed an evaluation, and you know what value it has for you. How did this evaluation become ideal beef genetics and a full breeding system and a philosophy here? speaker-1: So let's talk about ⁓ a commercial cattleman in a vacuum. Like they don't have access to any of these tools. Yep. Or, you know, they have access to the the standard tools the industries have. What are those tools? ⁓ so when you go to make a a breeding decision. or a largely like the the best case is a heifer selection decision. That's the one we always lean on because it makes the most it's the most tangible. What tools does a commercial st an average commercial cadmium have at their disposal to select that speaker-0: Their eye and a gate cut down an alley. Maybe a scale. Maybe a scale. Maybe. speaker-1: And maybe a scale. Largely not. So like you said, it's it's their eye and a gate. Yep. Right? speaker-0: And maybe a birth date. Maybe. speaker-1: Now, I I guess here fundamentally and that's that's it's not their fault. No. Right? What tools have us as Jorgensen Lennon cattle as a seed stock producer had for years? speaker-0: Full pedigrees. Yep. Expected progeny differences. Yes. ⁓ more re weights, all the weights, weaning weights, yearling weights, birth weights, scan data, ⁓ all the way up into recent times with genomics and just a whole many of data that you can use to make decisions. speaker-1: Right. And always. Yes. You're always better off. We will always have an advantage over that commercial producer because all all the phenotypic measurements, right? They're just not take, they're not taking as much data as we are. And that's okay. They don't have a reason to. Exactly. Right. But we have we will always have a a a a phenotypic advantage. Yep. Unless that commercial producer says, hey, this is worth it to me. And they're gonna go through all that work. And some of them do do that. Yep. Right. Yep. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: The next best thing barring your ability to not gather as many phenotypes is access to genomics. Yep. Is it perfect? Is it a perfect tool? Absolutely not. But is it a hell of a lot closer than looking at her and saying, I don't like the look of her today? Right. Right? Hey, she lifted her head a little bit too high on me when she went by. I didn't like that. Right? Well, I wake up in a bad mood some days too. Absolutely. Right? speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Some days I'm five pounds heavier than I am some other days, right? So I mean you look at the natural weight fluctuations in an animal. ⁓ whether when the last time they ate, when the last time they drank water, all the things that can affect that that appearance of her when she comes through the chute or through the alleyway. Yep. It's it's not a and I think anyone would well, I shouldn't say that. A lot of people would say, well, it works just fine. I've done it for years. But if you sat down and logically thought through it, it's just it's not a good option if you have better tools available to you. speaker-0: Well, and the the other thing I think is that, you know, and people will say it's not broke, don't fix it. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they don't know whether it's broke or not. Yeah. ⁓ whether it's preg checking cows, whether it's tagging them to match, knowing that she came in dry, all those little things that Sometimes can mean the difference between profit and loss. And sometimes it's just a straight up efficiency thing where you gave a heifer, a an open heifer, a chance as a three-year-old, and she went to dank and she came back as a four-year-old and happened to to rock one off. Well, then you keep that heifer back again. Well, there's a pretty good chance that those genetics. speaker-1: There was a reason that happened. speaker-0: There's a reason that happened. She should have left as an open heifer. But whether it was we didn't keep good records, ⁓ and again, that all ties back into joint genomics with the parentage verification and all that side of it, where you're actually then knowing what's standing. speaker-1: You know, y you said that the don't it's not broke, don't fix it thing. That that's entirely analogous to what Henry Ford did, right? To the horse right? Yeah, for you it was it was horses and and buggies and carriages and everyone said, Well, why would we get this is great. Why would we replace it? Yep. They told I mean, you're never gonna sell a car, we've got horses. Well It was better. Yep. It wasn't not broken. No. Right. You just found something that was better. That's all it was. Yep. And it it changed the world. And I am I comm am I saying this we'll do the same thing? No. But I it would and I think we've got data to show that man, if people would would grasp onto this and take advantage of it, there's some serious improvement to be had in the beef industry. There are speaker-0: producers that we deal with that would tell you that this did change their world. I mean, there's a set of Kievs in the sand hills in Nebraska that, you know, in two thousand nineteen when when the Walkham family started, you know, there was some unevenness and, you know, just they weren't the cattle they wanted. Year twenty twenty six, when I went and pulled the DNA on the heifers. I wouldn't have wanted to have to sort ⁓ with the gate down the alley 'cause you'd have been guessing at that point. speaker-1: Yep. You know it's funny that that was that was seven years. Yep. Two thousand nineteen to two thousand twenty-six. When we originally kind of studied this, that's kind of what we estimated it would take to go from where you were to where you want to be. speaker-0: And and they didn't I should rephrase that 'cause they didn't start genetic testing until their twenty twenty one model. So it's actually been five years that they've made that drastic of a change. I mean speaker-1: Yep. Five years. Five years. Yep. And they didn't I I shouldn't say this for certain, but I have a pretty good feeling that they didn't have to build new facilities. Nope. Didn't have to buy new equipment. Nope. It was all it was doing was adding a process, probably at branding time. Yep. Pulling a DNA sample and looking at those results before they select their efforts. Yep. Right? Yep. That's that's what it took. Yep. And then now on the backside of that The other step it adds is now that we have these these genomics, how do we mate the bulls to them? Yep. Right? Which we could get into I imagine we will get into speaker-0: Going there here in just a minute. And and that kind of finishes off that this part of that conversation, Nick, as we kind of chased a rabbit there of the evaluation became ideal beef genetics and a breeding system that we're offering to our commercial customers, saying, Hey, let's DNA test your females. Let's know what we're working with. Guess what? We're going to use the same evaluation on those heifers that we're testing our bulls with. speaker-1: Yes. Yep. speaker-0: The data is the same. And then we're gonna come alongside you and say, okay, where do you wanna go with? And then I got this little set of bulls standing here that plugs right in. Yep. And we make progress. speaker-1: It is the same. Where do you want go with it? So you you made a you made a a really good comment there about we're gonna sit down and say where do you wanna go with this? And and Cody could speak to this better than me. ⁓ but think about how how much different that statement is than a lot of people that market bulls to commercial cattlemen today. Now I'm not saying anything bad about them, but it's not what does your herd need? It's Look what I have. Look how good it is. And this will work for you. Cody says it about grandpa. Grandpa Martin, fifty years ago, had to say, hey, this real this bull is really good. Trust me. Use him on your cows. It's good because I say it is. speaker-0: Yeah It was a joke that I made with Cody yesterday as we were videoing the tour and I he made that statement and I said, Well when you make one forty nine and seventy two, Cody, you get to get away with speaker-1: Yeah, you do for sure. And it it works fine. Yep. ⁓ but we can now come in and say, not these are the bulls that you need because we say you need them. These are the bulls that you need because your cow herd says that you need them. And you decided where you wanted it to go. And because of that direction, these are the bulls we think you should plug in. Well, two things. These are the heifers you should not keep. Yep. And if you listen there, here's the set of bowls that will take you the direction you want to go. Absolutely and the the benefit we have on top of having this evaluation at our disposal in the first place is I I challenge you to find a cow out there, a cow in in the in in the commercial business that we couldn't made a bowl to and make a better calf. You won't. Yeah. If you And it's because there's speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: six thousand of ⁓ standing out there. Right? Yep. There's a there's a er and every one of them are different. Yep. Right? Yep. And some of them are are bad in some traits and good in others. And that mix is great because a a bowl that works for you and your cowherd might be the last thing I need. Absolutely. But There's there there's the inverse case too. Yep. Right. And we can fit ⁓ to every you it's it's not like you're choosing from a hundred and fifty bowls here and I gotta find the thing that will fit the best. Yep. You know, it's more like it's like, you know, all right, I got the granularity is so much higher here because we can get right down into it and say, Yep, here's exactly the ones that will work. speaker-0: Yeah, and Nick, I think sometimes that's the the blessing of the genetic partner system. ⁓ for sure. And that ⁓ yes, we require that they use Jorgensen genetics. They still need to be Jorgensen cattle. And we have enough diversity in that system to where somebody in Martin, South Dakota somebody in Chinook, Montana, and somebody in Canby, Minnesota can find a paternal line that fits their program. But we're adding their mix of the bottom side of those pedigrees. And it just provides, as you said, that genetic diversity here to where, you know, if I'm sending one back to the sand hills in Nebraska, And they need to control some growth. Well, we've got some cattle that that fit that system because they were reared in that type of environment. If we've got one going to Iowa, hey, I got one that's straight gasoline and pour it on, let it eat, and we can do all of those. So Nick, ⁓ the main reason why we're having this conversation today. speaker-1: Yep. Exactly. speaker-0: Everybody has seen a set of EPDs. And Boston's gonna show these. I I pulled a set up here and any anytime previously, if you've done a commercial test, this is what you're gonna see. And I added some things here of just things you might see when you go to a bull cell catalog. Sired dam, birth date, ⁓ some phenotypic measurement. speaker-1: read them all there's too many columns speaker-0: Yeah, and then you scroll on over and you've got all these EPDs and all these percentile. speaker-1: Yep. And I think in a lot of cases you're gonna get an accuracy figure too, which we have. We just don't display. So triplicate that. You know, generally, generally what I te tell people, I th if you look at our genetic evaluation, Jane, like you just look at a raw extract of what we get from Zoetis, I think there's 70 columns. I think all numbers. Yep. Right? Yep. And where you're going with this is what the hell am I gonna do with this? speaker-0: And if you're me and you're a data nut and you fit this same mold, we'll go through and we'll sort on our spreadsheet and we'll color code it and get to a point to where we can actually look at it and say, okay, this one does this, this and this and this. That's the one I need. This is the bottom cut of ⁓ speaker-1: Yep. Or Difference, Jamie, is you do that kind of stuff every day. Right. And I used to do that kind of and I enjoy it. I I I would venture to bet that most people don't get in the cattle industry because they want to sit in front of a computer and look at a spreadsheet. I know a couple guys. There's a there's a few. There's not very many. No. And I don't blame ⁓ speaker-0: And I liked I'm one of those nut jobs for the No. Right. They want to go look at their cow. That's right. And they don't have time for this. Yep. In all reality. And speaker-1: And it's and it's you know, not only just It's information overload because even if you've got the ability, Jamie, to go through and all right, I'm gonna color code all this. Well, how do I decide of these 17 traits, what's important? Right. Well, I don't even 25 traits. Yep. What's important, what's not, to what degree I should weight these things. Yep. Right. It it's just, it's a lot. Yep. And so people are gonna look at this and say, Well, screw this. No way. This I I got nothing from this. Yep. Right. And we actually even we found that. Yeah. Right. When we first started, it it was overwhelming for anyone else that tested animals, right? Which I think segues into your point about well, how do you take these results and make them digestible? Right. For a for a standard human. speaker-0: And So now now we're to a good point here, Nick. I wanna stop for just a second. ⁓ we're gonna talk just a minute about the tools that we're using at Jorgensen's for this. So for those of you that have never seen match seven That makes it really simple for you to collect these DNA samples, data matches. It's no problem to do this, guys. And if you use the EID and you get a reader, they're actually affordable these days. They are affordable. It makes it really easy for you guys to track. speaker-1: data. Well and so so like when you when you talk about like a like a match set it works really well for our system. Now our system is different than a lot of other people's but our our genetic partners actually don't even need to have a reader. Right. Right. Because when you have that paired dangle tag, that's gonna get you most of the way there for a lot of people. ⁓ but yeah I mean if if you've got the ability to collect and and and house all this data in a spot quick E ID reader and it's it's nice because you don't need a scanner and an E ID reader. Yep. That it all does the same work. Yep. One of the things that we get a lot of pushback on is like, you know, you throw up one of those match sets is when am I going to put this in? When am I going to do this? Right. Cause I my personal preference and I know yours is a little bit different sometimes, but do it at at branding time. Runny time is is the best time. Now is it is it the easiest time? No, but it's the best time. And you're gonna say, Why rope and drag? We've gone to ranches and done this when they rope and drag, it's doable. Yeah. speaker-0: And for me I'm I'm a birth guy. I I'm a I'm a I'm gonna tag him anyway. I pull the DNA, slip a tag in him. I mean, guys, I double tagged Kevs in January for two years. We didn't freeze any more years off than you do anywhere else in the world. You know, once they're dried off speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ for for sure. Yep, why not pull the DNA sample? Yeah. That's good point. speaker-0: You can DNA test them and and then you're done. speaker-1: Yeah. You're done forever. Yeah. Right. And the earlier you can pull it, because you know it takes, you know, let's just say on average, six weeks from pulling that sample to getting those results. Yep. If you can do it at birth, you might, well, you're gonna get those results when those calves are out of grass. Yep. Which is great. Yeah. Because that gives you time. Time until weaning to decide, all right, what am I gonna do here? Or at least what's my hit list from a genetic standpoint? Let me check this. And I, you know, we if we want to talk about the real process, we could recommend, and I don't want to jump into it too early, but here's my genetic hit list. Let's go check phenotype now. Yep. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: Right? Yep. And I know because you know, I when you're gonna when you're gonna cash trade or spay or whatever it's gonna be, the earlier you can do that, the better. Yep. Absolutely. Right? Yep. And if you know the minute I'm weaning these calves, these are the ones barring this one looks like an absolute unit or something like that on the you know, some some weird Taylor situations. You gotta plan. Yep. speaker-0: Absolutely. And it makes it so much easier. I mean, it just takes all the heartburn away. We're we're ahead of the game. You know, a lot of times that gives you time to, you know, maybe it's even check a sire. Like, you know, if you're using Jorgensen Bulls or you're you're testing them against some of your own stuff that you've been buying. Sometimes it's nice to go look at ⁓ standing beside the cow. Say, huh? Okay, that's our group worked. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Or the cyber group didn't. And hey, it's like Chuck and I talked about, we're we're not perfect and you know, we wanna know when when something don't look right and we tweak and move forward. speaker-1: Yep. So like you said, per perfect situation. You're pulling this DNA at birth. Cause like you said, you're already standing right there. Yep. Right? You get the results six weeks later. What do we do with this big ugly spreadsheet right now and make it something that I can make heads or tails of? Yep. speaker-0: So when did AgBoost did you guys go to Ag Boost or did they come to speaker-1: They came to us and god dang Jamie. I can't remember. Probably 2020. Okay. Right around, let's just call it then. Right around there. And ⁓ you know, the the whole the whole stick here with egg boost is exactly what we've been talking about. These these results suck. Yep. They absolutely suck. How do we make it where we're A human being can look at this and say, all right, this this makes more sense than it did before. Yep. And their concept, I I in my mind, as ingenious, is you just you normalize it all to a wheel. Yep. You normalize it all to a one to ten scale. Yep. Right. Based on percentile rankings. Yep. And ⁓ you you put it all together. And that's actually that's that's what egg boost does for us. And so every one of the animals that we test, which you know, we're at JLC alone, we're testing you know, six, seven thousand animals a year. ⁓ every animal. gets run through egg boost. Yep. And it allows us to more to more accurate, I wouldn't say accurately, but more digestibly view you know the results, whether you're talking about individuals or groups or genetic genetic partner groups or whole herd, whatever it is, we can do it all in egg boost. speaker-0: Yep, absolutely. And so, Nick, we're gonna talk just a little bit about everybody has seen and heard about the wheels. ⁓ but sometimes we don't don't do the best job of defining them. Several different wheels we're gonna talk about here. And ⁓ we've got an animal pulled up on the screen. This is actually Rooster, ⁓ sired a 7209, one of our favorite pools on the place. Yep. So what we're looking at here guys is when we go into Ag Boost and we're gonna look at an individual. This is what I would pull up. And the wheel that we're looking at is his over. So that So overall, Jorgensen versatile index for maternal, Jorgensen versatile index for heifers, basically just a heiferable wheel. Yep. And then Jorgensen versatile index for terminal. Correct. So that's how we get to our index numbers as well. But the wheel is really nice to actually show the the sausage making behind getting to that index. Correct. So we'll get there in just a minute. ⁓ first of all, on the overall wheel, that overall score, Nick. speaker-1: is an unweighted index of all the traits in the ideal beef evaluation, none more important than the other. Yep. Right? And some people are gonna say, well, I don't I don't like that because there's, you know, EPDs are correlated. You know, like there's a correlation between weaning weight and yearling weight. And if you weight them equally, then what you're doing is you're giving more, effectively more weight to yearling weight or whatever that correlation is. I I can understand that, but here here's why I like the overall wheel. It's I am not imposing upon you what you should do. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: I didn't make the call for you that weaning weight is the th is thirty five percent of this index. Yep. Right? You make the call. My my goal is to get my herd to a six. Yep. Great, great goal. You can do it in any number of an infinite number of ways. Yep. Right. And so you make the call. If if dry matter intake is important to me, well, god dang, I should use rooster. Yep. Right? Yep. If weaning weight is important to me, I should not use rooster. Right. Right? Yep. And and in and you can do this with your cows. You can say, look, I I don't I don't like high birth cows. Right. You know, whatever they whatever the thing is, it you can make the call here. Yep. Right. And I think the next thing that's important to talk about, Jamie, is what all the the spikes? The spokes look like on the Maybe before we go that far, ⁓ the six point two in the middle. Yep. It's a one to ten scale. Five is an average animal. Yep. Weighted across all the traits. Yep. Five is an average animal. So you could in a sense say that Rooster is twelve percent above average. Yep. Right? He's twelve percent above average. And then but you could make the argument, well, yeah, but he's he's in the bottom 10% for weaning weight. You're right, but acr across the whole w unweighted index, he is twelve percent above average. Yep. speaker-0: And I I'll tell you guys this. This is, you know, somebody's gonna say, ⁓ well, it it's dollar C. Okay. Yes, it is. Here at Jorgenson Landon Cattle and our genetic partners, we're not breeding for that number. This is just our tool to measure where animals are. And for me, the important thing with this wheel, Nick, is what you're gonna go to next. speaker-1: Measuring stick. speaker-0: Which is first of all touch on in the strictly the overall wheel guys, the width on those those pieces of the pie straight. speaker-1: Yeah. So so the width is heritability. So you look at a trait like fertility, which you can barely see, indicates that it's not very heritable. Yep. You look at a trait like Ribeye area or docile or dry matter intake, extremely heritable traits. So they take up more of the pie. Do they mean more in the average in the in the six point two? No, they do not. Not on not on the that is not an indicator of weight. Yep. It's just an indicator of all right, if I'm gonna focus on fertility, it's gonna be a long haul. Yep. Right. And I gotta use more than genomics here. Right. But if I'm gonna focus on dry matter, man, I could make some moves here pretty quick. Yep. Yep. So that's that's the width part of it. Yep. The next part is the is the depth of trade. Yep. Right. And this one I I if you l if you've looked at it for more than than a minute, I I think starts to stand out. Yep. It's just the score. Yep. Right. If it if it's touching the outside circle, it's a ten. If it's touching the inside circle, it's a one. Yep. Right. So you can see a one point one on weaning weight, very, very small depth, yep, versus a nine point nine on feed conversion ratio almost touches that blue outside ring, which by the way, the blue outside ring is the ⁓ for Pete's sake. ⁓ breed comp. Breed comp, yes. Breed comp. So these hundred percent Angus animal. Yep. ⁓ But that that is that is the wheel in and of itself. Yep. speaker-0: And for me and how I use this wheel, Nick, ⁓ I love this to get a snapshot because this tells me whether I'm looking at an individual or a group of animals, where we're at on each individual trait without me having to see it. speaker-1: That's right. speaker-0: And then when I'm doing especially AI matings, you know, the herd sires, I pretty well know what this looks like in my head. Yep. When I'm doing matings, well, you just lay the wheels on top of each other. Go, huh? He works there. He works there. Yeah. He works there. And that that's how we roll on with it. Okay. So so that is the overall wheel. When you guys see it, it has every trait that we test for represented. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: The score in the middle is just an unweighted aggregate of every trait that we test currently at Jorens Atlanta Cattle. And then ⁓ the ability to just visualize where they actually sit within those traits. ⁓ I think it just makes it so simple to look at a snapshot of an speaker-1: Yeah. And so I'm I i i if you were to probably pull our database, my guess is well, that average should theoretically come in right around five. speaker-0: Yeah, I think our calher hits right at 5.8. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And then so that would mean it's eight percent above the average, which today, you know, there's a hundred and twenty thousand animals in this database. ⁓ it's really rare that you see a hurt like you'll see animals that get above like a seven. Yeah, but it pretty rare. It's it's rare, right? It it takes a lot to move on on the aggregate, right? It takes a lot to move an egg boost, score one point. Yeah. It does. speaker-0: And I and that plays back into antagonist trait. And rooster being the exception, but I use it a lot. I use dry matter intake and feed conversion. A lot of times those two traits work very adversely. So again, you know, rooster being an exception to this rule, but again, those two traits fight against each other most of the time. So it's really hard to get above that that seven. They're just speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. And some people make the argument frankly that if if they get that high, you start to get into like what do you want to call it? They're almost like too good. And you know, but listen, that's that's opinion, right? It's that's not fact, that's opinion. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So let's jump down and we're gonna talk about ⁓ the ⁓ the three index wheels and we're gonna start with the maternal index. Now on the maternal index, when we start talking about the width of the tree, we're we're different now on on the three indexes. The width next is the weight in the speaker-1: Yeah. Yep. Is now the weight in the index. So unlike the overall score where there's no weighting at all. JVIM, JBIH, and JVI T are weighted indexes that, you know, we have specifically designed the weightings with SOS to meet the criteria that we think are important, right? And so when you see the weightings, you can you can disagree or agree, but this is how we've chosen to build JVIM or JBIC. I think it shows on there. J V I ⁓ J V they're interchangeable. Yep. ⁓ weaning weights the most important trait. Fertility is the next and it just goes speaker-0: on the last trait. ⁓ traits that play on a maternal index, weanan weight, fertility, yearlin weight, milk, IMF, birth weight, docility, dry matter intake, scrotal, proxy for fertility, rib aerea, and rib five, guys. ⁓ speaker-1: With seventy-five or sixty percent of your weight coming from those top four. ⁓ seventy-five coming from those top six. Yep. Right. speaker-0: And ⁓ this is a trait we sort on a lot. ⁓ I think guys this this index really hits on what you're looking for out of maternal performance. speaker-1: It is the it's the kind of the flagship index, I would call it. You know, whether you're picking on bulls or or picking on using it to select females. speaker-0: I think this is, you know, back to when you know we trusted Angus genetics a little bit better. Dollar W was a really, really good proxy for maternal performance. I think we're really duplicating that with a with an index that is very much ⁓ this is maternal performance, guys. This this is something that if you want to build a cow herd, ⁓ and we've kind of got them where we want ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah. is. speaker-0: Then we speaker-1: Yeah, this was this was not just a willy-nilly process. There was a a lot of work that went into deciding what these how these indices were gonna be weighted. And what you notice too with with the with all the JVIs, you start to see more ⁓ variation in ⁓ Right? Like if if you look at a at overall wheels, I mean you're talking between largely between four and six. Yep. Right. Rooster went from a two six point two to a two point six. Right. And I've seen lots of I've seen tens. Yep. Right. You're by net by nature you're gonna see tens, but you see you see tens on on these quite frequently, right? So lots of variation, which in some ways is it it helps make a better because you can you've got more granularity there, you can parse through and and make your calls. speaker-0: You're gonna see a lot of, you know, even, you know, four and a halves that that may be a ten on a maternal index. Yep. You know, there was just some other holes in there that that held him down overall. So that again, that's why we're not selecting for for overall. Okay. Right. We're we're trying to find the right balance. ⁓ speaker-1: Correct. But it's the the height's still the same. Yep. Right. It's still score of the trait. Just the only difference now is is weighting is that width. So you see it here with with Rooster, which we well we all know with him. sure shot Cavanese bowl. Yep. Shows up as a in the in the top nine percent. Yep. speaker-0: Sure shot. speaker-1: For our heifer index. Yep. ⁓ and you can see why. It's all it's it's 33% birth weight. Yep. And he's he's good there. speaker-0: And ⁓ basically this all the same traits as what is in the maternal index, just way more emphasis put on birth weight here. ⁓ obviously on a maternal index, much less concerned about birth weight. ⁓ we don't sort commercial females a lot on this JVIH trait. No. ⁓ this is really a a heiferble selection. speaker-1: The heifer bowl selection tool. Yeah, if if you're if you're sorting females on JBIH, you're setting yourself up for really, really light calves and therefore really, really light weaning weights. Which for some people that's what they want. Right. But you know, I think you'd have a whole philosophical argument about whether that's the right thing or not. speaker-0: Yep. And then ⁓ the terminal index, this was kind of the KISS model. Your weight, IMF, and intake. Yep. And then ribeye level performance. Yeah. speaker-1: With yeah there's there's five traits. You know, of of the seventeen traits we have, there there's five of them. Yep. ⁓ and this is this is also probably one where it it's a a bull selection tool, 'cause man, if you're if you're building your cow herd off this, right, ⁓ it it's that's gonna be a tough, tough road, I think. Yeah. Bunch of toads out there. speaker-0: Well, and I I do think there's some guys that they're buying their replacements. They may opt to test them and select on terminal because they're gonna breed them all terminal. And if that is your marketing system, hey, we can help you do. And we've got some cattle that'll probably fit that model for you without any problems. Yep. If that's what you want to do, we can do that. That's not speaker-1: Yeah. Go ahead. We certainly can. That's a hundred percent right. speaker-0: Our philosophy and our choice. Yeah. And that again, that goes back to the consulting part of what we do here. You know, if that's what you want to do, ⁓ that's what you can do. So I'll ask producer Boston, did the wheels make a little bit more sense now? We kind of covered what you so I do want to touch on and we're running out of time, Nick. ⁓ we've got meetings this morning, but I just want to go into a little bit of ⁓ yeah, me too. ⁓ the genetic analysis portion. And I have twenty one bulls that I've selected ⁓ out of our our system here, guys. And so when you if you test with us, ⁓ we'll do a lot of this for you. But we're also ⁓ swap part of the service that you pay for when you work with us, we are we're speaker-1: Yep. We're actually making some helping you make some calls. speaker-0: But I I just want to show you guys so when you select your set of animals, this is the first ⁓ first page you're gonna see. And so now the wheel has combined all twenty-one of those animals. speaker-1: So that is not one individual. That is all twenty one of those bulls put together. And what you see what you s when it starts to converge, you start to see that. I mean, this is a good set of bulls, but look at the evenness, right? I mean you look at Rooster who was just and that's you're gonna get that with individuals, right? But as you start to get more at it it starts to converge to that balanced center, which I think you made it you made a good pick there. And if these are ones that are in like a you know, like a semen catalog, I think what it'll show you is There's balance across the board. You can find what you need. Yep. Right? Yep. And then to the left, that trait distribution chart is literally just that wheel spread out across the chart. It's the same exact thing. The only difference you're gonna find is those circles. Those are heat maps of where the animals fall inside of that. So we've got eight bowl or nine bowls out of the twenty-one that that are a ten or nine or higher on Docility. And you see that too, because docility is an eight point one, it's the highest rate. several bowls that are tens on JBIH. So that's you just it gives you an idea of the distribution across that group. speaker-0: Nine bullshit. Yeah. And so this when we're talking about commercial heifers, ⁓ this is what we start with most of the time to look to see where we're at, to kind of know like, okay, but there is a hole in a set of bulls. Their milk number 2.6. So if we were if I was having a consulting session, I would pick on well milk and dry matter intake. So then what we can do, guys, is we can go over here and I can select all these animals. speaker-1: This is probably my favorite part of the whole thing. speaker-0: And I can say, okay, my maternal milk can be no less than five. There you go. They have to be average at best. And I can shorten that list down to these six bulls. And then I can say it said it was dry matter intake, right? So I can say then my dry matter intake can be no less than five. And I can shorten that back down. So now speaker-1: Yep. I've got three bowls picked. speaker-0: I've got three bulls picked. And those two traits that we didn't love before are now two of the best traits and we've moved them three tenths of a point. So that speaker-1: That's right. Overall. So make sure that's clear. Three tenths of a point. Three percent. Now that doesn't seem like a lot, but in the long haul, that's how you make progress, right? You don't you you don't make progress in baseball hitting home runs. It's singles and doubles. Yep. Right? That's what wins you games in. So you're gonna that goes back to like, you know, it it took Wackubs a minute. Yep. speaker-0: Is three point speaker-1: Right. This is not something that you just instantaneously see results. I mean, you will see results, but massive improvement is possible. It just it takes time and discipline. Yep. speaker-0: And this the other thing here, and this was a small set, right? And we were we opted to put a lot of emphasis on two traits. We gave some things up. Yep. We gave a fair amount of growth up here, guys. Yep. It's what happens when you single s single trait select. Yeah. You you're giv when you put emphasis somewhere, unless you're very diligent, you're gonna give away somewhere else. But I just I wanted to take the time to show that. speaker-1: How easy it was, I think, is probably the thing for me is okay. So we had 21 bulls there with 70 individual numbers we could have looked at, right? That's by my math, let's just call that 1,400 different individual statistics we could have poured through, right? Yep. And rather than that, you were able to go, pull up those 21, figure out what was important to you based on the traits, you know, of the group. and and solve it in a series of what five or six clicks that don't take an expert to make sense of, right? And I think what you're doing now is pulling up a larger group of animals. speaker-0: And this is so now guys, I've I've pulled up a set of animals. There's three hundred and ninety-nine here. We can go through the exact same process. Just as simple and and fast. So we're ⁓ a little bit of a hole on milk again here, Nick. Yep. ⁓ hole on rib fat. Let's hold growth. Yep. We want to hold growth. So I'm gonna go back to my trait focus here. speaker-1: straight focus. speaker-0: And I want to make sure that I hold growth. So weaning weight's gonna be no less than four. We have to hold that. Now we've gone from 399 to 289. Yearling weight, same way. I want that no less than four. Those traits work very similar to each other, so we only knocked a few off. Now we go back and I say, now let's put focus on where we want to put focus at. Milk no less than four. We're down to 109. Out of those, let's say it was 400 heifers, I needed to keep twenty-five percent of them. There you go. I'm down to a hundred and nine. And now I can go back to that set. Let's see if we moved them or not, guess. Yep. Same same result as what we had on the herdbulls, five point nine. We moved them three percent. Simple. speaker-1: That's a that's a what did you yeah, what did you do there? It wasn't like you had to change your breeding philosophy. You're gonna select these heifers anyway. Yep. So now and you know you could make an argument like, all right, I got 400 heifers. I need to, I'm gonna keep a hundred of them. Yep. In a lot of cases, I I think it's wise to select 130. Yep. Right? Let's go, let's go, let's make you a list larger than you need. Yep. speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: You take this list and you pick the best 100 phenotypical. Yep. Right. Yep. And what you've done is you've minimized the risk of sorting off that really good heifer that maybe just didn't look that good that day, or that really bad, or keeping that really bad heifer that did look good that day. Right. But you're still inside the bounds of like these animals are all safe. Yep. We'll pick the ones that that that makes your eye the happiest. Yep. speaker-0: Yeah, and I I think it's worth noting if you wanted to rip through ⁓ and say, I'm gonna lop the bottom fifteen percent off before we test them. I can't argue with that lot of times. You know, the ones that you know are really late born, yep, or they'd been sick, anything along those lines, I can truly get behind saying they're going in the coal pen and we're not gonna bother testing them. speaker-1: Yeah. Yep. I agree with you. The and the counter argument. Is parentage, right? Because if if you take them those don't you kind of want to know what happened? I do. Yeah. I do. And so the argument would be test them all. That fifteen percent. You know you're gonna call anyway, and I know you're spending, you know, X amount of dollars, but you're spending fifty bucks to to determine is this is this the cow's problem? Yep. speaker-0: Yes. Or did they did they swap kibs and she didn't take care of him because it was a swap deal or ⁓ that cow has now put two in that pen two years in a row? speaker-1: What are we doing here? She needs to go. She needs to go. Yes. Right. speaker-0: And and no matter how good she is genomically, she's put two in the outpen. speaker-1: not working. She needs to go to town. Yep. So parentage and then just getting a getting a sense of or w you you could have a sire problem too. I mean let's let's let's be fair. Yep. ⁓ there's just a bowl that is it just ain't working. speaker-0: Yeah, it's not jabbing on your cowherd for whatever reason. speaker-1: But plopping off those fifteen percent, you're still gonna get the value. Right? It's just I would argue you're giving up more than fifteen percent of value there. But I you that's a battle that I it's it's your coward, man. This is that that is optimal. This is suboptimal, but not bad. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yep. Yep. And for me, parentage, the one thing I think commercial customers and and guys know this, but I think when they actually see it on genomics will be amazed by. If you had a hundred head of cows turned out with five bulls and you get your parentage results back, one of them bred seven. Two of ⁓ got ten apiece. speaker-1: Yep. speaker-0: Two of ⁓ got five apiece and one of them didn't breed in. speaker-1: Do anything. And it goes that way every almost every single time. It's so rare to see twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty. speaker-0: And it it it is mine like twenty-eight thirty-five when he was turned out with three sip cows here. I think he had like fifty-nine offspring. speaker-1: We had we had a we had a genetic partner one year. The first year he tested, he had a bowl that the parentage came back, 64 calves. And he he looked at me and says, This is wrong. There's no way this is right. And I mentioned genetics don't lie here. Let's go talk to a vet. It's completely doable. ⁓ yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. But it's completely doable. And one thing that that we've taught, and this is a kind of a forward-looking, like a you know, a future. thing is, you know, bowl like libido or or pasture, you know, ver vitality is something that would be a really, really interesting trait to see. Right. Cause we don't I don't necessarily want 60 Right. Ten, ten, five, five, one. Right. Or, you know, however the math works out. You don't necessarily want that. It'd be great if you could get them all to be pretty even, right? 'Cause there's a reason that we put all five of these out there. Absolutely. ⁓ and it's it's completely doable. It's just gathering, you know, gathering that data is is the tough part because you gotta know well what all bulls are out with this cow group and ⁓ you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Be interesting to see though. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. And ⁓ lots of fun things coming with the IVE. Yeah, and and new trait development and ⁓ I'm gonna get Nick going later 'cause Geis and I have an idea for a new trait that I think we've got the phenotypes for. ⁓ that would be pretty cool for our our commercial customers. But Nick, we've got to go have a meeting, unfortunately. Thank you so much for your time. This has been ⁓ really good. ⁓ hopefully you guys understand a little bit better when you see these wheels somewhere now. ⁓ it clicks in your head as to what you're seeing and I think you'll really like the visualization aspect. speaker-1: Thank you. One last part of it, because and we didn't talk about cost at all today. But I I I don't want to. But here is the statistic that we've seen time and time again when we've tested animals. For every one dollar you spend on genetic testing on a female over her lifetime, it's worth two 2.3 over a seven-year period. Now that doesn't sound as exciting as four. ⁓ but it's you're more than doubling your money. If you take that, look at it as an investment, that's that's a thir twelve point six percent annual rate of return. Yep. You can't put your money in the stock market, you can't put your money in land, you can't put your money in anything else in agriculture and make a return like that. Yep. So it's a long game thing, right? 'Cause it it takes time. Yep. Takes time as as the whole system, but it it is a extremely valuable way to spend your money. Yep. But you just you you gotta be disciplined, right? You can't you can't take these results and say, BS, I ain't doing this. Well, you did, you wasted your money. Yep. Right? You gotta stay with the program. Yep. Trust the process. Stay consistent, and there's return there. Thank you, Jamie. speaker-0: Thank you, Nick. We'll catch you guys next time on the Source.