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The History of Baphomet Part 1: Before The Goat · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What? What's going to happen?
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Something wonderful. What? I understand how you feel. You see,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: it's all very clear to me now. As the next
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: day dawned, they called loudly upon Baphomet, letter attributed to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Anselm of Ribmont, 1098. If I showed you a picture
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: of Baphomet right now, there's a very good chance that
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: you would recognize it before I ever told you its name.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Because the image has become so deeply embedded in Western
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: culture that you do not need to know anything about
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: ceremonial magic, medieval heresy trials, the Knights Templar, 19th century
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: French occultism, Alistair Crowley, modern Satanism, or the strange evolution
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: of European ideas about Islam to understand that you are
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: looking at something that is supposed to feel forbidden. There
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: is the goat's head crowned by enormous horns, the torch
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  Speaker 1: burning between them, the pentagrams stamped onto the forehead, wings
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  Speaker 1: raising behind an eerily human body, female breasts above a
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  Speaker 1: strange caduceus-like form where the genitive organs should be, cloven
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  Speaker 1: feet planted beneath the figure, and two arms performing one
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  Speaker 1: of the most recognizable gestures in occult art, with one
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  Speaker 1: hand raised toward a pale moon while the other points
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: downward toward a dark one. While across those arms are
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: written two Latin commands, Solve and coagulate. Dissolve and coagulate.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Separate and recombine. Break the existing form apart and gather
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: its elements into something new. You have probably seen some
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: version of this creature on album covers, tattoos, horror posters,
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  Speaker 1: ceremonial magic books, occult merchandise, television shows, tarot decks, satanic imagery,
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  Speaker 1: political demonstrations, internet memes, conspiracy videos, and approximately 9 billion
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  Speaker 1: social media posts created by people who are completely convinced
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  Speaker 1: that every celebrity who has ever placed two fingers above
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  Speaker 1: another person's head is secretly announcing allegiance to an ancient
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  Speaker 1: goat god. Baphomet has become such a universally recognizable piece
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: of visual shorthand that the image seems to arrive with
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  Speaker 1: an entire mythology already attached to it, because people look
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  Speaker 1: at this figure and instinctively imagine medieval cults, underground temples,
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  Speaker 1: forbidden initiations, black candles, blood rituals, inverted pentagrams, pagan gods
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  Speaker 1: surviving beneath Christianity, heretical knights guarding secrets from Jerusalem, or
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: perhaps some sinister priest whispering the name of a deity
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  Speaker 1: that the church tried unsuccessfully to erase. There is only
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  Speaker 1: one enormous problem with that story. Because the Baphomet you
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  Speaker 1: recognize did not exist in the Middle Ages, there was
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  Speaker 1: no surviving medieval drawing of Elvis Levi's goat-headed figure, There
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: is no reliable medieval description of anything remotely matching the
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  Speaker 1: complete image. There is no archaeological discovery demonstrating that the
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  Speaker 1: Knights Templar possessed statues containing the familiar combination of goat head, wings, breasts, torch, moons, pentagram, caduceus,
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  Speaker 1: and alchemical commands. And there is no documented religious tradition
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  Speaker 1: carrying this exact creature continuously from ancient Egypt, Greece, Gnosticism, Paganism,
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  Speaker 1: or the Crusades into modern occultism. The familiar Baphomet belongs
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: overwhelmingly to the 19th century, when the French occultist Elavus
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  Speaker 1: Levi assembled this particular collection of all the religious, magical, alchemical, hermetic, demonological,
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  Speaker 1: and esoteric symbols into a new visual synthesis and attached
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  Speaker 1: that synthesis to a mysterious medieval name. Which does not
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: make Baphomet less interesting, but makes the history considerably stranger,
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  Speaker 1: because instead of studying the biography of an ancient god
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  Speaker 1: whose worship can be traced through temples, priesthoods, prayers, myths, sacrifices,
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  Speaker 1: sacred texts, or archaeological remains, we are studying the biography
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: of a word that became an accusation, an accusation that
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  Speaker 1: became a legend, a legend that became an occult theory,
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  Speaker 1: and an occult theory that eventually became an image so
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  Speaker 1: persuasive that millions of people began assuming the image had
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  Speaker 1: existed from the beginning. To understand how that happened, the
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: first episode removes the goat from the story almost completely
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  Speaker 1: and travels backward through the crusades, medieval Christian misunderstandings of Islam,
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  Speaker 1: the Templar prosecutions, the contradictory testimony about heads and idols,
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  Speaker 1: the destruction of the order, and the later writers who
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  Speaker 1: transformed the criminal accusation into a theory of secret wisdom.
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  Speaker 1: Stopping at the point where the old medieval name had
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  Speaker 1: accumulated enough esoteric meaning for a 19th century occultist to
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  Speaker 1: give it the body history had never supplied. Here is
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  Speaker 1: the chronology that changes everything. The name predates the Templar accusation,
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  Speaker 1: the Templar trials, and apparently the Templar order itself. The
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  Speaker 1: story begins in a religious world where Christians and Muslims
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  Speaker 1: were not merely fighting one another militarily, but routinely misunderstanding, caricaturing,
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  Speaker 1: and mythologizing one another, and one of the most persistent
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  Speaker 1: Christian misunderstandings of Islam involved the role of Muhammad. Muslims
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  Speaker 1: did not worship Muhammad, because within Islam Muhammad was understood
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  Speaker 1: as a prophet and messenger of God rather than a
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  Speaker 1: divine being. while the Islamic condemnation of idolatry made the
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  Speaker 1: later Christian fantasy of Muslims kneeling before statues of Muhammad
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  Speaker 1: particularly ironic. Medieval Christian literature repeatedly imagined Islam through the
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  Speaker 1: conceptual categories that Christians already understood, which meant that Muhammad
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  Speaker 1: could be transformed into a false god, pagan idol, demonic figure,
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  Speaker 1: or object of worship while his name mutated dramatically as
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  Speaker 1: it moved through Latin, French, Occitan, and other European languages.
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  Speaker 1: Forms such as Mahomet, Mahomet, Machomet, and eventually forms resembling Baphomet, B-A-F-O-M-E-T, Baphomet, B-A-F-U-M-E-T,
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  Speaker 1: and Baphomet, B-A-P-H-O-M-E-T, appeared within that linguistic world. And this
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  Speaker 1: is where the oldest documentary trail begins. In 1098, during
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: the struggle around Antioch, a letter traditionally attributed to the
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  Speaker 1: crusader Anselm of Ribmont contains a form of the word
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  Speaker 1: usually transcribed as Baphomet, appearing within a Christian description of
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  Speaker 1: the enemy during the crusading campaign. The importance of this
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  Speaker 1: reference is not that it proves Muslims were actually calling
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  Speaker 1: upon a supernatural being named Baphomet, because there is no
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  Speaker 1: independent Islamic evidence for such a cult, but rather that
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  Speaker 1: it shows a recognizable ancestor of the word circulating inside
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  Speaker 1: Christian crusading representations of Islam at the end of the
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  Speaker 1: 11th century. The institution we call the Knights Templar would
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  Speaker 1: not emerge until roughly two decades later, conventionally around 1119
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  Speaker 1: or 1120, and the mass arrests of French Templars would
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  Speaker 1: not begin until 1307. Around the end of the 12th century,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: probably in the political atmosphere following Christian defeats in Iberia
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  Speaker 1: and the continuing struggle against Muslim powers, the Occident Trabador
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  Speaker 1: gave out and composed a crusading song known as Lords
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Because of Our Sins. It is an aggressively Christian crusading
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  Speaker 1: poem describing Saracens, Jerusalem, Saladin, Morocco, Iberia, Christian rulers, military resistance,
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  Speaker 1: and the religious struggle between Christianity and Islam. And right
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  Speaker 1: in the middle of that unmistakable context appears the word B-A-F-O-M-E-T-Z, Baphometz.
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  Speaker 1: Gevarden declares that Christians, with God's assistance, will defeat those
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  Speaker 1: whom Baphometz has deceived. and the poem later concludes with
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  Speaker 1: the hope that God will be honored and served where
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  Speaker 1: Baphomets had previously been honored. The context is so explicitly
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  Speaker 1: Christian-Muslim that the identification of Baphomets with Muhammad, or more
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  Speaker 1: precisely with the medieval Christian caricature of Muhammad as a
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  Speaker 1: Muslim object of devotion, becomes extraordinarily difficult to ignore. Around 1250,
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  Speaker 1: following the catastrophic failure of the Seventh Crusade and the
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  Speaker 1: defeat of the forces of Louis IX of France and Egypt, D'Occitane, Troubadour, Astorque,
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  Speaker 1: d'Orlac composed a bitter lament essentially demanding to know why
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  Speaker 1: God had permitted such disaster to fall upon the Christian cause.
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  Speaker 1: The poem becomes almost sarcastically despairing, and Astorque declares that
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  Speaker 1: since God and the Virgin seem willing to allow Christians
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  Speaker 1: to be defeated, perhaps Christians should simply abandon their faith and,
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  Speaker 1: basically in another language, says, and let us worship Baphomet
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  Speaker 1: where he is. While the scholarly commentary accompanying the text
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  Speaker 1: identifies B-A-F-O-M-E-T as probably referring to Muhammad, explicitly points to
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  Speaker 1: the deformation of Muhammad's name and connects the usage with
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  Speaker 1: Gavadin's earlier crusading poem. The broader Occident record strengthens the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: same interpretation because forms of Baphomet, B-A-F-O-M-E-T, appear repeatedly in
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  Speaker 1: contexts related to Islam and Muhammad rather than in descriptions
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  Speaker 1: of a coherent, independent Baphomet religion. Later medieval material even
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: preserves a chapter titled D. Baphomet in an Occident translation
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  Speaker 1: connected with Raman Lal's Doctrine for Children, while other medieval
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  Speaker 1: terminology associated forms from the same linguistic family with Muslim
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  Speaker 1: religious practice in sacred space. The exact philological development remains complicated,
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  Speaker 1: and responsible historians should resist pretending that every spelling variant
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  Speaker 1: can be connected through one perfectly documented chain. but the
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  Speaker 1: overall pattern is considerably more secure than the later occult alternatives.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Before Baphomet became an esoteric mystery, forms of the word
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  Speaker 1: were already circulating inside Christian European descriptions of Islam. The
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Knights Templar themselves emerged from the transformed political and religious
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  Speaker 1: landscape produced by the First Crusade, probably around 1119 or 1120,
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  Speaker 1: when a relatively small fraternity of Knights organized around the
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  Speaker 1: protection of Christian pilgrims traveling in the newly conquered Crusader territories.
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  Speaker 1: Their full institutional development took time, The concept was extraordinary
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: for Latin Christianity, men who combined monastic vows and religious
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  Speaker 1: discipline with the profession of armed warfare. The order eventually
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  Speaker 1: received major ecclesiastical recognition and privileges, and during the following
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  Speaker 1: two centuries, the temple was developed into one of the
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  Speaker 1: most famous military religious institutions of medieval Christendom, possessing fortifications, estates,
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  Speaker 1: agricultural holdings, churches, and houses, financial networks, political relationships, and
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  Speaker 1: military responsibilities extending across Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean. That
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  Speaker 1: success would later feed the mythology surrounding them, because once
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  Speaker 1: an institution becomes wealthy, international, secretive in some of its
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  Speaker 1: internal practices, militarily prestigious, religiously privileged, and eventually destroyed under
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  Speaker 1: spectacular accusations, later generations will almost inevitably assume that something
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  Speaker 1: enormous must have been hidden underneath the official story. The
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  Speaker 1: actual political situation at the beginning of the 14th century
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  Speaker 1: was already dramatic enough without inventing a secret occult religion,
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  Speaker 1: because the crusader position in the Holy Land had collapsed
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  Speaker 1: with Ark falling in 1291, effectively destroying the last major
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  Speaker 1: mainland stronghold of the crusader states and forcing the great
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  Speaker 1: military orders to confront the uncomfortable question of that the
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  Speaker 1: institutions built around a historical mission rarely enjoy answering. What
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  Speaker 1: exactly are you when the world that created you has disappeared? Meanwhile,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Philip IV of France, remembered as Philip the Fair, was
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  Speaker 1: pursuing an aggressive program of royal centralization while repeatedly colliding
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  Speaker 1: with powerful institutions that resisted or complicated royal authority. His
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  Speaker 1: conflict with Pope Boniface VIII had already demonstrated how far
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  Speaker 1: Philip was willing to go against the papacy. and the
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  Speaker 1: Templars represented another enormously privileged body that possessed property throughout
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  Speaker 1: France while answering ultimately to Papel rather than royal authority.
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  Speaker 1: The financial dimension matters because the French monarchy had serious
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  Speaker 1: monetary pressures and the Templars possessed considerable assets. But reducing
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  Speaker 1: the entire prosecution to the cartoon explanation that Philip owed
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  Speaker 1: the Templars money so he framed them and stole their
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  Speaker 1: treasure goes a little too far. Political authority? Royal finance,
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  Speaker 1: institutional rivalry, genuine religious suspicion, existing rumors about secret initiation practices,
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  Speaker 1: Philip's relationship with the papacy, and the enormous vulnerability of
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  Speaker 1: an international military order whose original purpose had been badly
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  Speaker 1: damaged by the loss of the Holy Land, all contributed
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  Speaker 1: to the environment in which the prosecution became possible. On Friday,
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  Speaker 1: October 13, 1307, the date that conspiracy culture has never
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  Speaker 1: allowed to die Philip ordered the arrest of Templars throughout
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  Speaker 1: France in a coordinated operation that struck the order before
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  Speaker 1: it could effectively react, and the accusations that accompanied those
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: arrests were sufficiently explosive to destroy the reputation of almost
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  Speaker 1: any medieval Christian institution. The brothers were accused of denying
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  Speaker 1: Christ during initiation, spitting or trampling upon the cross, exchanging
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  Speaker 1: obscene kisses, rejecting orthodox sacramental practice, engaging in illicit sexual behavior,
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  Speaker 1: and participating in secret ceremonies that directly contradicted the Christianity
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  Speaker 1: they publicly professed. The accusers also claimed that Templars worshipped
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  Speaker 1: a mysterious head, idol, or forbidden image. But a charge
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  Speaker 1: in a heresy proceeding is not proof that the alleged
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  Speaker 1: cult existed. The testimony itself deserves close examinations. Descriptions varied.
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  Speaker 1: A head, a bearded face, multiple faces, metal or wood,
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  Speaker 1: some witnesses described alleged powers or initiation ceremonies, while others
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  Speaker 1: repeated things they had only heard. The next part examines
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  Speaker 1: what those differences actually tell us. A particularly important cluster
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  Speaker 1: of testimony makes the problem even more interesting, because forms
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  Speaker 1: of the name itself really do enter the Templar record,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: although they do say in a way that creates more
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  Speaker 1: questions rather than solving the case. In material published from
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  Speaker 1: the proceedings, it reported describing an object in figurum Baphometi,
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  Speaker 1: in the figure of Baphomet, while Raymond Rubiai was reported
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  Speaker 1: as describing a wooden head upon which there was a
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  Speaker 1: figura Baphometi. The later testimony adds that he kissed its
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  Speaker 1: feet while crying Yala, which the record glosses as a
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  Speaker 1: Saracen word, while another reported formula allegedly instructed the brothers
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  Speaker 1: to adore a head as their god and their Mohammed.
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  Speaker 1: Those details matter because they prevent us from pretending that
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: the name Baphomet was merely invented by 19th century occultists
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  Speaker 1: and retroactively placed into the Templar affair. Yet they also
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: refuse to give us a coherent Templar religion because the Baphomet, Mahomet,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: and Saracen language appears inside the same unstable evidentiary environment
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: that produced conflicting heads, materials, faces, ritual functions, and second-hand reports.
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  Speaker 1: The formal accusations surrounding the alleged heads could also become
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: extraordinarily elaborate, because the prosecution attributed supernatural powers to them,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: claiming in various formulations that a head could save the brothers,
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  Speaker 1: bring wealth to the Order, make trees flower, cause the
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  Speaker 1: earth to become fertile, or confer power upon cords that
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: had touched the object and were then worn by members.
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  Speaker 1: Those allegations are valuable evidence for what prosecutors were prepared
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  Speaker 1: to imagine or what some witnesses were prepared to confess.
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  Speaker 1: But they still do not establish one recoverable object whose
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: appearance and theology remain consistent across the order, which means
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  Speaker 1: that the historian has to preserve the difference between documenting
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  Speaker 1: what was alleged and declaring that the alleged cult has
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: thereby been proven. During the later papal examination of the
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Templar leadership, for example, the testimony preserved in the Genon
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  Speaker 1: proceedings demonstrates how unstable knowledge of the alleged head could be,
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  Speaker 1: because Raymond de Caron stated that he knew nothing about
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  Speaker 1: the worshipped head and had never even heard it mentioned
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  Speaker 1: until Pope Clement spoke of it during the previous year,
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  Speaker 1: while Geoffrey de Gonville likewise said that he knew nothing
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  Speaker 1: about the alleged head. By contrast, Hugos de Perrault told
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the Papal commissioners that he had actually seen a head-shaped
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: idol at Montpellier, where it had been shown to him
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: by the local preceptor Pierre Alamandin. The important point is
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  Speaker 1: not that any one of those statements automatically settles the question,
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  Speaker 1: but that the senior men within the same supposedly idolatrous
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: order could display radically different levels of knowledge about the
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: object that later mythology treats as the center of a
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: secret Templar religion. The problem becomes even more complicated when
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: we remember that medieval Christianity itself possessed objects that could
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: appear bizarre or even sinister when removed from their religious context.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: and among those most visually dramatic examples were anthropomorphic reliquaries,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: including reliquaries shaped like human heads. Churches and monasteries throughout
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: medieval Europe housed bodily relics of saints inside elaborate containers,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: and skull fragments could be placed inside busts, or head-shaped
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: reliquaries were sometimes constructed from wood, silver, silver gilt, jewels, glass,
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  Speaker 1: painted surfaces, and other precious materials. Surviving examples associated with saints,
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  Speaker 1: such as Ursula and her legendary companions, demonstrate that a
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: hollow sculpted head could literally function as a Christian container
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  Speaker 1: for a human skull or skull fragment, while other medieval
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: head reliquaries similarly enclosed relics inside scriptural representations of the saint.
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  Speaker 1: That does not prove that every temple I had mentioned
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: in the proceedings was a reliquary, because the evidence does
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: not permit us to solve every testimony by replacing idol
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: with relic container. but it demonstrates why the mere existence
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: of a mysterious head-shaped object inside a medieval religious institution
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: cannot automatically be treated as proof of occult worship. One
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: particularly important strand of the Templar evidence connects an alleged
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: silver head with the legendary 11,000 virgins, the enormous medieval
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: cult associated with St. Ursula and her companions, whose supposed
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: relics circulated widely and inspired precisely the kind of elaborate
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: head-shaped reliquaries that make the accusation much less straightforward than
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: later occult histories usually admit. Historians discussing the Templar proceedings
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: have therefore noted the possibility that at least some testimony
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: concerning strange heads may have intersected with completely orthodox relic
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: culture rather than a hidden non-Christian religion. This distinction matters
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: because a medieval investigator asking whether a brother adored a
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: head was not simply cataloging an archaeological artifact. He was
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: attempting to establish whether the object had been used in
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a way that constituted heresy, idolatry, apostasy, or some other
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: religious offense, and the interpretation placed upon the object could
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: therefore be as important as the object itself. The French
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: proceedings against the Templars unfolded within a judicial culture in
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: which confession carried enormous evidentiary and theological weight, and torture
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: could legally be used under particular conditions to obtain admissions
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: from people suspected of heresy. which means that any responsible
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: reading of the testimony has to ask not only what
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: a prisoner said, but when he said it, who was
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: questioning him, whether torture had already been used or threatened,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: whether he later repeated or withdrew the statement, and whether
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the same accusation appears independently in areas where French royal
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: power was less overwhelming. This does not mean that every
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: confession must automatically be dismissed as false, because coerced environments
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: can produce mixtures of truth, exaggeration, compliance, rumor, remembered ritual,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: and fabricated detail. But it does mean that the historian
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: cannot simply count confessions as though each one were an
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: independent eyewitness report produced under neutral conditions. The Templar case
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  Speaker 1: is particularly difficult, because many of the accusations fit recognizable
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: medieval templates for describing heretical groups, including the denial of Christ,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: desecration of sacred objects, obscene ritual behavior, illicit sexuality, secret ceremonies,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: and idolatry, which raises the possibility that interrogators interpreted unfamiliar
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: or secretive Templar practices through categories they already associated with
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  Speaker 1: religious deviance. Some Templars confessed and later withdrew their confessions,
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  Speaker 1: while others attempted to defend the order, and the danger
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: of retracting a confession was severe because a person who
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: had confessed to heresy received reconciliation, and later repudiated that
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: confession could be treated as a relapsed heretic, a category
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  Speaker 1: that carried the possibility of execution. The judicial structure therefore
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: created a horrifying trap in which confessing could preserve your
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: life temporarily, while retracting the confession could later destroy it.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: That dynamic became brutally visible in May 1310, when dozens
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: of Templars who had admitted to defend the order were
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: condemned as relapsed heretics and burned outside Paris, an event
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: that shattered much of the organized resistance being mounted against
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: the prosecution and demonstrated to every imprisoned Templar exactly what
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: could happen if a confession was withdrawn. Contemporary accounts and
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: modern histories commonly identify 54 Templars as having been burned
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: on the 12th of May in 1310, although the larger
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: procedural history surrounding the defense of the order remains complicated.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Geographical comparison matters for exactly this reason, because the most
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: dramatic confessions emerge especially strongly where Philip IV and the
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: French prosecution possessed the greatest power, while proceedings elsewhere in
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Europe did not always reproduce the French pattern with the
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: same intensity, which makes the idea of one universally practiced
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Templar heresy increasingly difficult to establish. The unevenness of the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: evidence therefore requires explanation, because if the alleged rites were
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: mandatory across the order, we would expect them to appear
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: with greater consistency, while local abuses would no longer amount
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: to one universal Templar religion. Ritual humiliations misunderstood as theology
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: would change the meaning of the practices entirely, and details
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: generated by coercion or repeated interrogation formulas would weaken the
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: evidentiary foundation still further. None of those alternatives can simply
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: be declared proven, but the historical record obliges us to
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: keep them open. After the initial arrests and French interrogations,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Pope Clement V attempted to assert Papal control over a
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: prosecution involving an order that technically answered to the papacy
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And in the summer of 1308, he personally heard the
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: confessions of dozens of Templars who had been brought before
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: the Papel court at Portieres. Barbara Frail's study of the
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: surviving material notes that Clement heard the confessions of 72
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: selected Templars at Portieres and granted them absolution after confession
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and penance, demonstrating that the Papel approach was not simply
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: to declare every accused Templar permanently outside the church. The
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: five highest-ranking Templar leaders, however, including Grand Master Jacques de Molay,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: did not appear personally before Clement at Portiers because they
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: remained in royal custody and were diverted to Chinon, where
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Clement therefore sent three cardinals acting under papal authority to
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: examine them directly. Between approximately 17 and 20, August 1308,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: those commissioners questioned the senior leadership individually, including Jacques de Molay,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Raymond de Caron, Hugues de Perrault, Geoffroy de Gonville, and
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Geoffroy de Charney, and the surviving record of those proceedings
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: is what has become famous as the Chinon Parchment. The
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: document became widely known in modern scholarship after Vatican archivist
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: and paleographer Barbara Frehl identified the relevant parchment in the
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Vatican archives in 2001, although related evidence concerning the Chinon
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: proceedings had long been known from other archival materials. What
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: the parchment records is extremely important, but it also has
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: been abused almost as badly as the Baphomet legend itself,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: especially in the sensational internet version claiming that the Vatican
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: secretly discovered the Templars were innocent and then covered up
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the evidence for 700 years. That is not what the
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: document establishes, because the Chinon material records confessions concerning improper
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: initiation practices and then records the ecclesiastical absolution and reconciliation
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of the senior Templar leaders. meaning that after admitting offenses
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: and expressing repentance, they were restored to communion rather than
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: permanently condemned as irredeemable apostates. The Chinon evidence instead reveals
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: a Pope attempting to distinguish between potentially corrupt or illicit
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: initiation customs, individual culpability, sacramental reconciliation, and the much larger
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: question of whether the entire order should be judged institutionally heretical.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: His symbolic denial of Christ during initiation, followed by repentance,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: could be treated as a grave Christian offense requiring absolution
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: without proving membership in another religion. The same is true
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: of an illicit initiation test or a local abuse. That
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: was the distinction Clement was trying to navigate. By the
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: time the Council of Vienne assembled, the Templar affair had
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: become an international ecclesiastical disaster whose political consequences extended far
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: beyond the guilt or innocence of individual brothers. because restoring
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: the order would have required Clement V to overcome years
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: of scandal, contradictory testimony, royal pressure, public accusations, institutional paralysis,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and the reality that the Templars' military propose had already
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: been barely destabilized by the collapse of the Crusader states.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: On the 22nd of March in 1312, Clement issued the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: decree suppressing the order of the temple, but the language
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and legal character of that suppression was deserve more attention
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: than popular histories usually give them, because Clement did not
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: simply present the dissolution as the triumphant conclusion of an
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: ordinary judicial process in which the guilt of the entire
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: order had been conclusively demonstrated beyond dispute. The order was
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: suppressed largely through the papal provision in the face of scandal, suspicion,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: and the enormous institutional crisis surrounding it, which is one
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: reason historians distinguish between the suppression of the Templars as
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: an institution and and a straightforward judicial verdict declaring every
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: member collectively guilty of every charge. Their properties were redistributed,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: although the fantasy that Phillips simply inherited one enormous hidden
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Templar treasure vastly oversimplifies what happened to the Order's assets.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Their surviving members were dispersed, imprisoned, pensioned, transferred, reconciled, or
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: dealt with through different local processes depending upon jurisdiction. But
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: what remained intact was the mystery. and that mystery became
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: considerably darker two years later. In March of 1314, the
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: final act of the prosecution produced one of the most
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: powerful scenes in the entire mythology of the Knights Templar.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Master of the Order,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: and Geoffroy de Charnay, preceptor of Normandy, were brought before
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: a commission in Paris, where their fate was expected to
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: be settled on the basis of their previous confessions and
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the long proceedings that had followed. Instead of quietly accepting
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: permanent imprisonment, the two men repudiated the conclusions being imposed
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: upon them and publicly asserted the innocence of the order,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: effectively withdrawing or contradicting earlier admissions upon which their reconciliation
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: had depended and thereby making themselves vulnerable, under medieval heresy law,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: to treatment as relapsed heretics. According to the traditional chronology,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: on the 18th of March of 1314, They were burned
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: to death in Paris, probably on a small island in
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: the Seine, while the precise reconstruction of the event depends
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: upon later chronicle evidence and therefore deserves slightly more caution
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: than the popular dramatic version usually receives. Later tradition would
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: add curses, lost treasure, escaped survivors, secret heirs, underground continuations,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and eventually Freemasons retroactively pulled into the medieval narrative while Gnostics, Cathars, Assassins, Alchemists,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Grail Guardians, Hermetic Initiates, Johannites, and almost every other available
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: secret tradition would eventually be invited to the party, so
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: that the historical Templars could be extinguished by the mythological
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Templars were only beginning. Before following the Templar legend into
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: 18th century Freemasonry and the later theories of secret initiation,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: there is another historical stream that has to be placed
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: on the table, because several of the visual and philosophical
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: ingredients that Eliphas Levi would eventually combine inside Baphomet had
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: already developed within European alchemy long before anyone attached them
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: to the medieval Templar name and keeping this stream separate
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: at first is exactly what allows us to see what
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Levi later combined rather than imagining that the complete symbol
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: had been transmitted intact for centuries The alchemical hermaphrodite, often
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: described through the language of Rebus, belonged to a much
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: older symbolic vocabulary of conjunction in which divided or complementary
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: principles could be represented as one composite body. And the
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: famous 1550 Rosarium Philosophorum provides an especially useful example because
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: its illustrated sequence follows the conjunction of solar and lunar
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: masculine and feminine principles through a series of transformations that
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: culminate in hermaphroditic imagery associated with the completion of the
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: alchemical work. None of this material was called Baphomet, and
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: there is no reason to force the Templars into it,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: but it establishes that the visual idea of a body
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: containing opposed sexual principles were already deeply available to Renaissance
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: alchemical culture centuries before Levi drew his goat. That background
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: becomes much more specific with the physician, alchemist, Christian Kabbalist,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: and the theosophical writer Heinrich Kuhnrath. whose extraordinary elaborate Ampritheatum
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: first appeared in rare edition in 1595. Modern work on
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: the surviving copies has reconstructed the sequence of its four
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: great circular images as Christ's cruciform, Adam androgyne, and the
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: alchemical hermaphrodite, or rebus, in the Oratory Laboratory, which means
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that Kuhnroth did not merely employ sexual duality as an
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: incidental decorative motif, but placed the androgyne in the alchemical
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: hermaphrodite inside a carefully constructed Christian, Kabbalistic, magical, and alchemical
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: vision of transformation. The detail that matters most for the
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: later Baphomet story is that Kunrat's rebus also carries the
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: paired alchemical commands Salve and Coagula, a fact that recent
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: scholarship on Kunrat's imagery identifies directly in the 1595 engraving.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: In their most literal alchemical sense, the two imperatives describe
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: complementary operations of disillusioned and coagulation, separation and fixation, breaking
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: a substance out of an existing state and bringing it
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: into another form, while the larger philosophical imagery of the
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: hermaphrodite allowed those operations to participate in a visual language
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: of divided principles becoming joined within a transformed whole. Kunrath
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: was not alone inside this visual world, and the point
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: is not to pretend that one Renaissance engraving secretly contains
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: the complete 19th century Baphomet, because alchemical conjunction imagery circulated
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: through a much broader field. The 1550 Rosarian Philosophorum had
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: already made the union of male and female principles central
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: to an illustrated alchemical sequence, while a 1639 print associated
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: with Clovis Hestau has also been identified by Julian Strube
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: as one of the visual sources that can be connected
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: with Levy's latest synthesis. At the same time, early modern
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: demonological books, such as Francesco Maria Guazzo's 1608 Compendium Maleficarum,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: were circulating goat-headed and winged images of the devil, creating
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: yet another visual vocabulary that could later overlap with the animal, demonic,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: and sabbatic dimensions of Levi's construction without proving that any
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: of those earlier images was already Baphomet. That distinction is essential,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: because the alchemical androgyne gives us a genuine prehistory for
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: some of Levi's ingredients without giving us a prehistory for
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: the complete Baphomet itself. and that is a far more
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: useful historical result than claiming that Kunrath, the Rosarium, or
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: any other Renaissance alchemical source was secretly depicting the Templar idol.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: What existed before Levi were pieces of a symbolic vocabulary.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: The hermaphrodite, or rebus, conjunction of masculine and feminine principles,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: dissolution and coagulation, solar and lunar polarity, alchemical transformation, and
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: a wider European visual tradition of horned and demonic figures.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: while the act of fastening those ingredients to the medieval
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: name Baphomet would come much later. The earlier symbolic stream
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: will matter again in the second episode, because Levy himself
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: would explicitly point back to Kunroth when explaining the anatomy
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: of his goat, allowing us to move from resemblance to
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: documented transmission and to watch one of the older alchemical
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: ingredients being consciously absorbed into the new 19th century image.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: The centuries after the suppression of the Templars did not
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: immediately produce the fully developed occult mythology familiar from later
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: conspiracy literature, because the enormous network of claims connecting the
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Order with Freemasonry, Gnosticism, hidden Eastern wisdom, alchemy, and Baphomet
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: developed gradually rather than surviving intact from the 14th century.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: By the 18th century, European Freemasonry had expanded into increasingly
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: elaborate systems of additional degrees, chivalric symbolism, legendary histories, and
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: competing claims concerning the remote origins of masonry, and within
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: this environment, the Knights Templar became almost irresistible as imagined ancestors.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: One of the most influential examples was the rite of
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: strict observance, associated especially with the German Freemason Karl Gallhoff
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: von Hund during the middle decades of the 18th century.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Von Hund and the strict observance tradition promoted the idea
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: that Freemasonry preserved a lineage connected with the medieval Templars
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: and that hidden superiors maintained authority over the system, creating
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: a historical mythology in which the suppression of the order
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: in the 14th century had not completely destroyed its esoteric inheritance.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: By the 18th century, initiatory groups were constructing Templar genealogies.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: That changed how the medieval accusation could be read. With
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Philip IV's investigators called heresy, later esoteric writers could present
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: as the trace of forbidden wisdom. The critical intermediary in
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: that transformation was not yet Elvis Levy, because Levy could
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: give Baphomet a body, while the writers first had to
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: give the mysterious name a doctrine. One of the most
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: important figures in that transition was the German writer, bookseller, critic,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: and enlightenment intellectual Christoph Friedrich Nicolai, whose 1782 work, attempted
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: to reconsider both the accusations made against the Templars and
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: the possibility that the order possessed an internal doctrine that
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: deferred from the outward Christianity it professed publicly. Nicolai did
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: not simply repeat the medieval prosecution as though every accusation
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: were reliable, because he approached the material through the very
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: different intellectual concerns of the 18th century, when Freemasonry, comparative religion,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Gnostic speculation, and theories of secret initiation had made it
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: increasingly plausible that to some European writers that the Templars
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: might have preserved philosophical teachings rather than merely practiced the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: crude idolatry imagined by their prosecutors. Within this framework, the
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: mysterious word Baphomet could be detached from the older medieval
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: linguistic environment that connected forms of the word with Muhammad
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: and Islam, while being interpreted instead as a deliberately constructed
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: esoteric term whose hidden meaning supposedly pointed toward initiation, wisdom,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: or secret religious knowledge. One influential speculative reading interpreted Baphomet
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: through a Greek formula resembling baptism of wisdom. It was
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: compelling to later occult thinkers because it suggested initiation and illumination.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: But an attractive esoteric reading is not evidence of a
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: word's medieval linguistic origin. The historical problem is that an
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: ingenious symbolic etymology is not the same thing as linguistic evidence.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and the medieval occurrences of Baphometh, Baphomet, and Baphomets appear
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: within Christian descriptions of Islam long before anyone proposed that
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the word encoded a Greek mystery formula, which means Nikolai's
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: interpretation belongs to the history of what later Europeans wanted
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Baphomet to mean, rather than establishing what the word originally
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: meant during the Crusades. In 1818, the Austrian Orientalist Joseph
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: von Hammer-Pergstall Publish Mysterium Baphometis Revelatum, usually translated as The
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Mystery of Baphomet Revealed, a work whose title alone tells
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: us how dramatically the historical problem had changed since the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: 14th century, because Hammer was no longer merely asking whether
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: the Templars had possessed an illicit object, but was announcing
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: that the hidden religious meaning of Baphomet could be uncovered
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: through comparative religion, symbolism, inscriptions, and allegedly surviving artifacts. Hammer
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: was an enormously learned Orientalist, whose interest extended across Islamic, Persian, Arabic,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: and Ottoman history and literature. Yet his reconstruction of the
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Templars belonged to a period when European scholarship frequently mixed
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: serious linguistic and antiquarian research with speculative theories of religious
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: transmission that would not satisfy modern standards of provenance, archaeological control,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: or evidentiary demonstrations. His thesis was sweeping because he proposed
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: that the Templars had participated in a secret Gnostic and
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Ophite religious tradition characterized by heterodox cosmology, serpent symbolism, sexual duality, initiation,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: and doctrines fundamentally different from the Christianity the Order publicly professed,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: while the mysterious Baphomet supposedly belonged to the concealed system.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: The word Ophite derives from the Greek ophys, meaning serpent,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: and early Christian heresiological literature had described several groups whose
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: cosmologies gave unusual or positive significance to the serpent of Genesis,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: although modern scholarship has repeatedly warned that the category ophite
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: can oversimplify a collection of different ancient groups that were
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: often described polemically as by their opponents rather than through
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: surviving self-definitions. Hammer nevertheless treated this Gnostic-Ophite framework as a
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: key capable of unlocking the Templar mystery, and he attempted
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: to support his reconstruction by examining objects, inscriptions, carved figures, vessels, coins,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: and other pieces of material culture that he believed contained
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: traces of the forbidden religion. This point deserves considerably more
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: attention than it usually receives. because Hammer was not merely
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: sitting in his study announcing that the Templars felt Gnostic
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: to him. He believed that physical evidence existed, and he
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: presented supposedly Templar monuments and artifacts as archaeological remains of
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: the secret doctrine he believed the medieval prosecution had only
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: partially revealed. The problem was that the identification of many
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: of those objects, as genuinely Templar was itself, uncertain or unsupported,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: which meant that the argument could become circular. Because an
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: unusual figure might be identified as Templar because it appeared
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: to contain the symbolism Hammer expected from the Templar Gnosticism,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: while that same figure was then cited as evidence that
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Templar Gnosticism had existed. Hammer's reconstruction nevertheless changed the imaginative
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: possibilities surrounding Baphomet, because the medieval prosecution had left behind
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: a fragmented accusation without a stable theology, while Hammer supplied
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: a theology capable of connecting the alleged idol with with
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: ancient Gnosticism, serpent symbolism, dual sexuality, Sophia traditions, heterodox initiation,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: and the possibility that the Templars had acquired forbidden religious
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: knowledge through their long contact with the Eastern Mediterranean. Whether
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: any of that happened historically is a separate question, and
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: the evidence available to modern historians does not establish the
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: grand secret tradition Hammer attempted to reconstruct, but his work
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: remains essential because it demonstrates exactly how Baphomet, moves from
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: the archive of medieval accusation into the imaginative universe of
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: modern occultism. This is where the first episode ends, with
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the historical fragments finally assembled closely enough for someone to
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: compress them into a single symbolic body. And the second
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: episode begins with Eliphas Levy, whose 19th century synthesis turns
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Baphomet into a reproducible image that later occultists, Thelemites, Satanists, publishers, artists, activists,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: and conspiracy theorists can copy, reverse, rename, institutionalize, and repeatedly rebuild.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: And that's the end of another Occult Rejects. Hope you
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: all enjoyed, and until the next one.