Latest / Karl and Crew / Enjoying God in Everything with Steve DeWitt & Discovering Your Purpose in Each Stage of Life with Brian Sanders

Transcript

Enjoying God in Everything with Steve DeWitt & Discovering Your Purpose in Each Stage of Life with Brian Sanders · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced God, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
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  S2: and you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S2: What do you have a taste for this morning? Uh,
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  S2: I told you I would buy you breakfast. What would
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  S2: you have a taste for?
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  S3: Oh, man. Well, actually, this is really funny because I just, uh,
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  S3: sent our phone screener. Leo down to the commons. Uh,
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  S3: during the last interview that we were doing, and I
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  S3: asked him to get me some French toast and some
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  S3: hash browns. Okay. And a soda and a soda. Uh. Huh. Okay.
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  S3: I don't drink coffee. And so a little caffeine in
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  S3: the morning is helpful, and that's usually how I do it.
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  S2: French toast, hash browns.
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  S3: And a soda. And he came up with some, uh,
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  S3: sausage patties, too, which was nice.
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  S2: Oh, so you already got it delivered?
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  S3: Yeah, I already I'm eating it right now.
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  S5: Oh, I, I didn't even.
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  S3: Yeah, it's right here.
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  S2: Did you ask me if I wanted it on that order?
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  S3: Well, I was, uh, I was purchasing for myself. I
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  S3: wasn't doing like a group thing. And so I asked
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  S3: him to go down on my behalf, so I apologize, uh,
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  S3: but but I wasn't doing like, a group lunch.
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  S2: I definitely cannot, I cannot eat during the show because
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  S2: every time I come on the mic, you hear me
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  S2: digesting food, but I'm glad that you are gonna enjoy
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  S2: your nice, tasty breakfast.
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  S3: Yes. Well, I was gonna say it's perfect that you
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  S3: brought this up. That was what? I was in the
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  S3: mood for this morning.
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  S2: Now I'm looking at the Styrofoam container. I can see
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  S2: it just off to the side. Yes, we are on
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  S2: the campus of Moody Bible Institute. So fun fact. So
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  S2: we are in a separate building, but in one of
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  S2: the main buildings on campus, there is a like a
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  S2: dining hall of sorts that's open for both students and employees.
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  S3: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a great little benefit. I
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  S3: don't have to try to get something delivered here. You know,
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  S3: we can get someone to go down or if we
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  S3: have a break, we can go down and get that too.
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  S3: And that's nice.
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  S2: It feels like eggs are missing from that. I mean.
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  S3: You know, I'm not a big egg guy really.
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  S2: I feel like if you've got breakfast meat plus hashbrowns
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  S2: plus French toast.
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S2: That feels like the missing component.
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  S3: I mean, that's fair. That would be what comes next
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  S3: for sure. You know, an omelet. I, I don't know,
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  S3: but I really don't like eggs all that much. And so,
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  S3: so if I don't have to get them, I usually don't.
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  S2: All right. Well I'm gonna.
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  S3: Much. And so so. If I don't have to get them,
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  S3: I usually don't.
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  S2: All right. Well, I'm going to ask you the same
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  S2: question as we're talking about the five senses this week.
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  S2: What do you have a taste for today if you
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  S2: haven't eaten breakfast? You can give me your favorite breakfast meal.
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  S2: Or maybe you're already ahead and thinking about dinner tonight.
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  S2: You already have a taste for what you're going to
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  S2: be eating hours from now. From now. Text me (800) 555-7898. (800) 555-7898.
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  S2: Simple question. What do you have a taste for today? (800) 555-7898.
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  S2: And coming up, we'll talk about how our taste for
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  S2: certain foods is very similar to our taste for spiritual things.
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  S1: He was running from God, but God's love brought him home.
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  S1: Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on
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  S1: Moody Radio.
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  S2: You know, tastes are a funny thing. What tastes great
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  S2: to someone may not taste so good to someone else.
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  S2: I was in a worship service this past. It was
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  S2: a Saturday night service and it was a pretty. It
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  S2: was a pretty long one and for some of the people.
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  S2: They had been there all day. It was a. It
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  S2: was part of a conference. And so my husband and
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  S2: I went to the evening session and we ran into
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  S2: a pastor friend of his who was also attending. And
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  S2: he had been there for a lot of hours. So
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  S2: as we were sitting in the back, he comes up
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  S2: and he taps my husband on the shoulder and he
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  S2: kind of whispers something, and they both chuckle and then
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  S2: he disappears. And so my husband leans over, he said,
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  S2: Todd said he's going to get a taco. He'll be
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  S2: right back. And so he slips out of the service
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  S2: and goes.
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  S3: To this.
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  S2: Taco joint up right on the corner and then comes
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  S2: back in the service. Well, wouldn't you know. Then I
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  S2: started thinking about Mexican food.
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  S3: Oh, sure. Yeah. When someone says it, you're like, well, great,
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  S3: now I can't stop thinking about it.
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  S2: So then an hour and a half or two hours later,
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  S2: when the service ended and we headed out and we
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  S2: started walking to our car and I spotted the taco joint.
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  S2: I said, that must have been the one he went to.
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  S2: And I said, you know what? I feel like a
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  S2: taco too. So I went.
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  S3: I wonder if it was any good.
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  S2: It was delicious because I love tacos. What do you
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  S2: have a taste for today? We've got, um, Chinese food.
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  S2: Feels early for.
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  S3: That, but no. You know what? Chinese food? Some fried
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  S3: rice in the morning. That's a great breakfast. It's good.
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  S2: Yes, I don't know, with French toast and sausage patties.
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  S3: No, no, no. Different breakfasts. Different breakfast breakfasts.
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  S2: Fresh sweet Michigan corn on the cob says 54, 37,
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  S2: 2987 fettuccine Alfredo. Ooh, crispy fried spam. 8441. The funny
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  S2: thing about having a taste for something is it usually
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  S2: means that you've had it before. It's a flavor that
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  S2: you enjoyed at some point in time for the very
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  S2: first time, and decided you liked it and therefore went back.
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  S3: Yeah, absolutely.
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  S2: But there was a first time.
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  S3: You had to try it once.
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  S2: There was a time when you had to try crispy
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  S2: fried spam, and you had no idea if it would
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  S2: be good or not. Same with sweet Michigan corn on
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  S2: the cob. You had to taste it for the first time.
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  S2: Somebody had to offer it to you, or you had
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  S2: to simply decide it's worth trying. I want to take
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  S2: you to a verse in Scripture. As we've been marching
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  S2: through these five senses, the sense of taste. Have you
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  S2: heard this verse? It's a familiar one. O taste and
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  S2: see that the Lord is good. Blessed is the man
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  S2: who takes refuge in him. What does it mean to
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  S2: taste and see that the Lord is good? Blessed is
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  S2: the man who takes refuge in him. Well, it's an
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  S2: invitation of sorts. I'll explain. Coming up.
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  S1: Your shot of hope to get you through the day.
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  S4: You are so, so loved. God does not want you
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  S4: to stay in your past. And I want you to
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  S4: know and believe that today.
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  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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  S2: We sit down at a restaurant or a dinner table
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  S2: with friends, and everybody has their plate of food in
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  S2: front of them. You take a bite of something and
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  S2: it is delicious. It is very common to tell the
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  S2: person sitting next to you, whether it's a close friend
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  S2: or a family member, you have to try this, this pasta,
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  S2: this steak, this fill in the blank. It is so good.
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  S2: You have to taste this. And then maybe they grab
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  S2: a clean fork of their own because, hey, let's not
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  S2: be sharing germs here.
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  S3: Yeah, no sharing.
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  S2: Forks or you cut off a little corner for that
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  S2: for them and you slip it on to a the
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  S2: cocktail plate and they get to try it.
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  S3: Too. Absolutely.
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  S2: Because you enjoyed it so much, you want to make
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  S2: sure they get a chance to taste it as well.
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  S2: Psalm 348 is a lot like that. O taste and
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  S2: see that the Lord is good. Blessed is the man
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  S2: who takes refuge in him. This is an invitation to
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  S2: experience firsthand the goodness and the blessing of the Lord.
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  S2: Because here, here's the thing. If you could sit with
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  S2: that delicious pasta, that's the best you've ever had, you
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  S2: could try to describe it. This pasta is amazing. You
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  S2: tell your friend next to you it has the richest texture.
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  S2: It's both creamy. It's got a little bit of a
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  S2: kick to it. You could try to describe it to
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  S2: them and have them take your word for it that
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  S2: it really does taste good. Or you could just offer
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  S2: them a bite.
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  S3: Yes, absolutely.
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  S2: In the same way, as much as it's nice to
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  S2: hear about the goodness of God, about how he comforts
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  S2: and he provides and he saves and he sustains and
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  S2: he gives peace and he protects. But just like a
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  S2: good meal, you won't fully get it until you taste it.
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  S3: Mhm.
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  S2: Until you experience it for yourself. And what a beautiful
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  S2: thing that we are invited to not just take his
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  S2: word for it, but to actually taste it.
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  S3: Yeah, absolutely. The the Gospels are filled with Jesus saying, yes,
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  S3: come experience me. Experience my want his miracles. I love when, uh,
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  S3: Thomas says, like, I, I need to see the scars
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  S3: on his hands and feet and feel his side in
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  S3: order to believe that he's going to come back. And
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  S3: Jesus doesn't rebuke him for that. He doesn't say, well,
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  S3: what are you doing? You've been with me. You don't
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  S3: just believe. You don't just believe, you know, he says,
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  S3: come on, look at my hands. Look at my feet,
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  S3: feel my side touch, touch, experience.
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  S2: Earlier this week, as we've been marching through these senses.
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  S2: And so the thing about when you taste the goodness
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  S2: of God, your appetite changes. Yes. Because when you get
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  S2: the real thing, it's easier to identify the substitutes. And
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  S2: all of us can remember when we were not in Christ,
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  S2: the things that we sought to satisfy.
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  S3: Totally.
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  S2: Cheap relationships, cheap thrills, cheap night out, cheap this, and
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  S2: maybe for a moment because you didn't know any better.
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  S2: It was okay. Sure. Satisfied you for.
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  S3: A moment.
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  S2: A moment. But it didn't really fill you. And then
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  S2: you taste and see that the Lord is good.
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  S3: Yeah.
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  S2: Your appetite changes. I want to read you first Peter
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  S2: two one through three. So put away all malice and
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  S2: all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander like
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  S2: newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk that by
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  S2: it you may grow up into salvation, if indeed you
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  S2: have tasted that the Lord is good. Long for crave
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  S2: pure spiritual milk. The word of God, like a newborn infant,
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  S2: longs for milk. They long to be fed and sustained
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  S2: and nourished in the same way. Long for the word
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  S2: that's going to cause you to grow up into salvation
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  S2: that's going to nourish your soul. So I want to
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  S2: ask you today, now that you're in Christ, how did
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  S2: your spiritual appetite change? What do you crave now that
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  S2: you never would have craved before? Someone called in earlier
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  S2: and talked about the music they used to crave certain
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  S2: types of music. And then in Christ, appetite changed totally.
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  S2: So I'm curious for you, how did your spiritual appetite
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  S2: change once you became new in Christ? 800 555, 78, 98, 805, five, five, 78, 98.
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  S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
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  S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
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  S2: Molly called in this morning from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Tell me, Molly,
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  S2: how did that spiritual appetite change?
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  S6: Hi, Ellie. Um, it was in watching television. I didn't
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  S6: want to watch anything that wouldn't honor God and just
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  S6: spending more time in the word. Opening my Bible and
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  S6: really wanting to sit there all day and just spend
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  S6: time with God.
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  S2: Yeah. Molly, thank you so much for your call this morning.
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  S2: That is exactly what's described in Scripture. To crave spiritual milk,
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  S2: you crave the Word of God. First Peter two one
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  S2: through three, put away all malice and all deceit and
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  S2: hypocrisy and envy and all slander like newborn infants, long
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  S2: for the pure spiritual milk that by it you may
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  S2: grow up into salvation, if indeed you have tasted that
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  S2: the Lord is good. Love it. Thank you so much
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  S2: for your call this morning, Molly.
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  S1: Standing on the rock each and every day. You're listening
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  S1: to Carl and crew.
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  S2: When you taste and see that the Lord is good,
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  S2: your appetite changes. I think we've established that sometimes it
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  S2: can be hard to see the goodness of God when
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  S2: you see a mess all around you. Coming up, we're
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  S2: going to get a check in with Pastor Steve DeWitt.
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  S2: He's a pastor in the northwest Indiana area that got
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  S2: hit hard by storms this week. What does he have
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  S2: to say and how is he still seeing beauty even
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  S2: in the midst of the mess?
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  S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
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  S1: This is Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
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  S2: We've been talking about the five Senses all this week,
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  S2: and we had a guest already scheduled. His name is
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  S2: Steve DeWitt. He's pastor of Bethel Church in Northwest Indiana.
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  S2: He has written a book that we're going to feature,
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  S2: Enjoying God and Everything A Guide to Maximizing Life's Pleasure.
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  S2: It's all about experiencing the beauty all around. We did
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  S2: not know that midweek his neighborhood, all of Northwest Indiana,
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  S2: was going to get hit by what he has called Steve.
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  S2: You said that this is the worst storm damage that
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  S2: you have seen in all of your years of living
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  S2: in that neighborhood. So before we even get to the book,
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  S2: give us an update of kind of what you are
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  S2: experiencing in real time.
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  S7: Well, Ali, great to be with you. And yeah, the
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  S7: timing here is poignant in that, um, you know, this
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  S7: very large population, half a million people down here and
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  S7: northwest Indiana basically had a hurricane, uh, that came through.
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  S7: Straight line winds and it is widespread damage, uh, trees down,
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  S7: no power. Our utility said it's the worst damage in
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  S7: the history of their company. So it's a pretty big, uh,
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  S7: pretty big deal here. And if you're not in this community,
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  S7: you may not realize that there's hundreds of thousands of
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  S7: people without power. Most gas stations are closed. Um, and
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  S7: so we're, we're, we're, we're kind of little house on
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  S7: the prairie down here for the foreseeable future.
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  S2: My goodness. And you know, as a pastor, obviously you're
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  S2: walking through your own cleanup, your own processing of the
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  S2: of damage, but what are you telling your, your congregation
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  S2: or what will you be telling them in the days
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  S2: to come as you're, you know, just the, the hard
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  S2: stuff of life that sometimes makes it difficult to see
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  S2: the beauty.
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  S7: I wrote a note this morning and, uh, noted that
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  S7: in my own neighborhood here after the storm yesterday, which
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  S7: was probably the worst thing that's ever hit our neighborhood,
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  S7: it was also the best thing that ever hit our neighborhood,
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  S7: because the neighbors all emerged from their houses. Everybody was pulling,
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  S7: pitching in, you know, dragging branches and a real sense
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  S7: of community. So I wrote a note to my, to
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  S7: my church, um, encouraging our church to realize that this
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  S7: is a, well, a terrible thing, a great opportunity to
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  S7: be the church and to do that in all of
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  S7: the neighborhoods that we live by being good and loving neighbors.
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  S7: You know, these kinds of events, uh, pull people out
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  S7: of their home and into possible relationships. And I think
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  S7: it's a, well, a very hard thing. It is also
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  S7: a gospel opportunity. And I've encouraged my church to make
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  S7: the most of it.
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  S2: Yeah. You know, the book that you've written? It's been
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  S2: out a couple of years, a Join God and Everything,
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  S2: a Guide to Maximizing Life's pleasure. You explore this concept
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  S2: of beauty. Obviously, you see a contrast between you look
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  S2: out right now and I'm sure all around you you
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  S2: see an absolute mess. There's something hardwired in us when
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  S2: we see the beauty of a magnificent tree or a sunset,
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  S2: or we look out on the horizon and we see
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  S2: where the water meets the sky. There's something that is
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  S2: so uniquely human about being able to experience that, reflect
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  S2: on kind of what you lay out in this book,
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  S2: just about beauty and what it tells us about God.
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  S7: Well, I'm literally looking out the window at massive branches
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  S7: all piled up and broken. Very large tree broken in half.
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  S7: And in a way, it is a little bit of
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  S7: a picture. You know, one way to understand the Bible
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  S7: is the basic story of the way things are supposed
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  S7: to be. Then the way things are not supposed to be.
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  S7: And in the end, the restoration of the way things
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  S7: are supposed to be.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S7: And the only, the only way we know what ugly is,
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  S7: is that there is an instinct in us that sees
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  S7: us what I call beauty, the symmetry of creation, the
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  S7: reflection of the beautiful character of God, who is the
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  S7: beauty behind all the beauty. And that God placed within
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  S7: us as image bearers, this longing for perfection for us,
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  S7: for those things that are in our hearing or seeing
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  S7: or touching or tasting that are that are beautiful. And
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  S7: the genesis of this project was me experiencing these deeply aesthetic, joyful, um,
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  S7: you know, food, music, sunsets, and wondering why is it
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  S7: so powerful in me? Why do I love this so much?
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  S7: And as a pastor, wannabe theologian, I began to explore
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  S7: why that is. And I've come to the conclusion right
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  S7: in the book, that God made us this way and
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  S7: he made us to long for, um, what he made
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  S7: us to live for. And we're made for him. We're
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  S7: made for incredible beauty, infinite beauty, and the created world.
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  S7: Romans one reflects the character of God. And so as
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  S7: image bearers walk around a, a, a cosmos that is, uh,
• 18:34
  S7: the portrait of what God is like. Um, we, we
• 18:38
  S7: love it. And, you know, we pay incredible amounts of
• 18:41
  S7: money to go to a concert or to have a
• 18:43
  S7: mountain vacation or whatever. And we just, we're just wired.
• 18:47
  S7: We're beauty junkies, essentially. But because of sin and ever
• 18:52
  S7: since Genesis three, we worship created things rather than the creator.
• 18:56
  S7: And so we, we tend to make idols out of
• 18:59
  S7: these aesthetic experiences. And we try to derive meaning from them,
• 19:04
  S7: to live for them and to, in many cultures, to
• 19:08
  S7: venerate them, to make them gods themselves. And all of
• 19:13
  S7: this is a kind of backhanded compliment to God who
• 19:17
  S7: made things so beautiful. We mistake them for him, but
• 19:21
  S7: he is even more beautiful than the beautiful reflections that
• 19:25
  S7: we see around us. So the point of the book
• 19:27
  S7: is that beauty leads to wonder, and wonder should lead
• 19:34
  S7: us to worship, and I maintain that after an encounter
• 19:40
  S7: with Jesus and salvation. That the food should taste better.
• 19:44
  S7: You know, the the moon should look brighter. Um, all
• 19:47
  S7: of these things now we experience theologically, and the book
• 19:52
  S7: is about how to enrich those experiences, how to maximize those,
• 19:57
  S7: and to turn every experience of wonder into a moment
• 20:02
  S7: of worship.
• 20:04
  S2: What does that look like? Because I love that turning wonder.
• 20:07
  S2: The beauty leads to wonder. Wonder leads to worship. What
• 20:10
  S2: does that look like? So someone's going, okay, so I
• 20:12
  S2: walk out, I take a walk outside, or I take
• 20:14
  S2: a walk in nature and I, and I, and I
• 20:16
  S2: look at what's around me. That's step one. Then do I,
• 20:21
  S2: do I start praying? Is that is that how wonder
• 20:23
  S2: leads to worship? Or do I start singing? Make that
• 20:26
  S2: practical for us.
• 20:28
  S7: It could. I mean, feel free to break out in
• 20:30
  S7: the Hallelujah chorus.
• 20:32
  S2: Uh, but.
• 20:33
  S7: Most of us probably aren't going to do that on
• 20:35
  S7: a daily basis. I think, again, if you look at
• 20:38
  S7: Romans one, uh, the fallen humanity fails to do two things,
• 20:45
  S7: fails to give honor to God and fails, fails to
• 20:48
  S7: give thanks to him. And I would say that's, those
• 20:51
  S7: are two really good starting points when, when we find
• 20:55
  S7: ourselves delighting in something, um, big or small coffee this morning,
• 20:59
  S7: hot shower, um, you know, hug from your child, whatever
• 21:03
  S7: that kind of moment would be, uh, to train ourselves,
• 21:08
  S7: to not experience them apart from God. Atheists love coffee.
• 21:12
  S7: Atheists love hot, hot, hot showers. Um, but they experience
• 21:17
  S7: them them by themselves. They do not bring their faith
• 21:22
  S7: into that experience. They don't think about God. Uh, and
• 21:27
  S7: I think that's really the key here is that we, we,
• 21:31
  S7: we go upstream from the experience to the source, at
• 21:35
  S7: least in our mind, if not in a brief prayer. Lord,
• 21:37
  S7: thank you for this. Um, Lord, I, I realize I'm
• 21:43
  S7: so deeply grateful that I am having this experience or
• 21:46
  S7: even to think, um, that as good as this is,
• 21:51
  S7: as much as I like this, God is even better.
• 21:54
  S7: God is even more. God is even more beautiful. And
• 21:58
  S7: in that way, we keep our aesthetical experiences of pleasure
• 22:03
  S7: in their proper place. We don't make too less of
• 22:06
  S7: them by not honoring God in them, but we don't
• 22:09
  S7: venerate them either and make them gods themselves. We see
• 22:12
  S7: them as gifts from God. And so I would encourage
• 22:17
  S7: a kind of mentality every day of thinking about God
• 22:23
  S7: in these kinds of experiences. And it may be a prayer,
• 22:26
  S7: it may be just a thought, but just honoring God
• 22:29
  S7: in our heart and acknowledging him as the giver of
• 22:33
  S7: all good gifts.
• 22:34
  S2: Steve DeWitt, our guest this morning, pastor of Bethel Church
• 22:36
  S2: in northwest Indiana. He also hosts a program. His teaching
• 22:40
  S2: ministry can be heard on the broadcast, the journey weekday
• 22:43
  S2: evenings on Moody Radio, and then Sunday mornings as well.
• 22:46
  S2: Just text. Enjoy. We'll send you the details to the
• 22:49
  S2: book and also to his church. Just text. Enjoy to
• 22:53
  S2: 800 555 7898. Enjoy to 805 557898.
• 23:00
  S1: He's a sports fanatic with a stand for anything you
• 23:03
  S1: can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew. It's
• 23:08
  S1: curl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 23:10
  S2: Well, you want to hear the call of God for
• 23:12
  S2: your life, right? You want to know what it is
• 23:15
  S2: that you're supposed to be doing? How has God wired you?
• 23:18
  S2: What assignment does he have? What good works have been
• 23:21
  S2: prepared in advance for you to do? Ephesians 210 but
• 23:25
  S2: coming up, what if the call of God wasn't necessarily
• 23:28
  S2: a one time moment, but an ongoing process through the
• 23:33
  S2: different seasons and stages of life. That's what my guests
• 23:37
  S2: coming up says, he says there are six main seasons
• 23:40
  S2: of life and perhaps a calling shift through each one.
• 23:44
  S2: We'll discuss coming up.
• 23:45
  S1: You're listening to Curl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 23:49
  S2: Well, the big question that every believer has. Okay, I'm
• 23:53
  S2: in Christ now. What? What am I supposed to do?
• 23:56
  S2: We want this road to Damascus or burning bush sort
• 24:00
  S2: of moment where it's all made clear. This is the
• 24:03
  S2: call of God on my life. Sometimes that happens for us.
• 24:07
  S2: Sometimes it's not as clear. Brian Sanders, our guest this morning,
• 24:10
  S2: he's the author of the book The Six Seasons of
• 24:13
  S2: Calling Discovering Your Purpose in Each Stage of Life. Well,
• 24:17
  S2: the title alone, Brian, leads me to believe that maybe
• 24:20
  S2: our expectation of a burning bush or a road to
• 24:24
  S2: Damascus moment may not be the most realistic expectation as
• 24:28
  S2: far as determining what in the world does God want
• 24:30
  S2: me to do now?
• 24:32
  S8: Well, it's it's funny. You know, I think it does
• 24:35
  S8: feel like so central to our even our sense of well-being.
• 24:39
  S8: You know, am I where I'm meant to be? AM I,
• 24:41
  S8: am I who I'm supposed to be? Who am I becoming?
• 24:45
  S8: All of those questions of identity. And yet we are
• 24:50
  S8: kind of somehow comfortable with not knowing. And I'm not
• 24:54
  S8: sure that's super healthy. You know, I think it is
• 24:56
  S8: something that's maybe knowable and maybe we class it as
• 25:00
  S8: a sort of mystery. Who can really know? In my
• 25:03
  S8: many years of working with people trying to to discern
• 25:06
  S8: and articulate their calling, I think sometimes it can be
• 25:10
  S8: a fear of getting it wrong. But also, maybe you
• 25:13
  S8: get cornered by it. You know, if I say I
• 25:15
  S8: am called to be a nurse or I am called
• 25:17
  S8: to the pastorate or something like that, that feels like, okay,
• 25:21
  S8: now that is it. That's what I must do. But
• 25:23
  S8: I think part of what I'm trying to contribute to
• 25:25
  S8: that conversation, too, is that these things change over time
• 25:27
  S8: and God is walking with us through the changes and
• 25:31
  S8: the context of our lives.
• 25:34
  S2: You know, you mentioned like that we can feel like
• 25:37
  S2: I might get it wrong, or we can maybe be
• 25:40
  S2: fearful that we know what the right answer is, and
• 25:45
  S2: we're a little bit intimidated by it. You know, there
• 25:48
  S2: is a gift of, of indifference that maybe we releasing
• 25:53
  S2: control is part of discovering the call, right? Becoming indifferent
• 25:57
  S2: to our own will in favor of God's will. And
• 26:00
  S2: that's sometimes the first battle to fight. What do you say?
• 26:03
  S8: Yeah. What a wonderful turn of phrase. And it's something
• 26:07
  S8: that belongs in the contemplative tradition, you know, to to
• 26:10
  S8: actually come to a position of, Lord, I'll do whatever
• 26:14
  S8: you tell me that I'm actually, you know, when we
• 26:16
  S8: hold too tightly to one possible outcome, you know, like, Lord,
• 26:20
  S8: I just remember being, you know, 21 years old and thinking,
• 26:24
  S8: should I marry my wife? You know, I was like,
• 26:26
  S8: I really liked her, really wanted to. And you, you
• 26:29
  S8: sort of get in your prayer closet and say, Lord,
• 26:32
  S8: am I supposed to marry her? But you have a bias.
• 26:35
  S8: You know, you you want something out of that, that conversation,
• 26:39
  S8: that transaction. And to be able to come to a
• 26:41
  S8: place of indifference is not a negative idea. It's actually
• 26:44
  S8: a beautiful, freeing, positive idea, which is, Lord, if you
• 26:47
  S8: want me with this person, I will do that with
• 26:50
  S8: joy and happiness. If you want me to, to walk
• 26:52
  S8: away from the relationship, I will trust you and also
• 26:55
  S8: do that with joy. And that's, I think, what you're
• 26:57
  S8: getting at and that that contemplative idea of indifference, not
• 27:00
  S8: it doesn't matter what happens to me, but that I
• 27:03
  S8: will trust you and, and know that I will experience the,
• 27:07
  S8: the closest thing to full joy if I if I
• 27:10
  S8: walk in your way.
• 27:13
  S2: So what about this topic speaks to you personally? Why
• 27:16
  S2: did this become something that you felt strongly enough to
• 27:20
  S2: write a book about?
• 27:21
  S8: I've spent a lot of a lot of my career,
• 27:24
  S8: you could say like as an incubator, we run an incubator.
• 27:27
  S8: So we try to help people start nonprofits and start
• 27:30
  S8: churches and start ministries. And, um, and so walking with
• 27:35
  S8: people who have a sense of, I think maybe I'm
• 27:37
  S8: supposed to do something or create something in the world. And,
• 27:41
  S8: and watching that change over the course of people's lives,
• 27:45
  S8: it just, it was just a pattern that I saw
• 27:48
  S8: emerging and developing. And I started wanting to help people
• 27:52
  S8: interpret that pattern. Um, this, this is true of all
• 27:55
  S8: personality typologies. And I would, I would consider this a
• 27:58
  S8: sort of psychosocial typology. It's a, it's a pattern that
• 28:03
  S8: can be useful to think about, uh, that all people
• 28:06
  S8: experience in some way. Um, but it's not definitive. It doesn't,
• 28:11
  S8: it doesn't define who we are completely, but it's a theory. And,
• 28:14
  S8: and I think a helpful one or meaningful one, but
• 28:17
  S8: watching people in their 20s, let's say, feel called to something. Yeah. And,
• 28:23
  S8: and then that kind of changing when they have children
• 28:25
  S8: or when their career changes, or even midlife when they
• 28:29
  S8: get a cancer diagnosis or, or, or, God forbid, their
• 28:33
  S8: marriage breaks down or they lose a child or, or, or,
• 28:37
  S8: or just life happens, you know, and, and we change
• 28:41
  S8: and life, uh, creates obstacles. And so to see, okay,
• 28:46
  S8: is that is that thing I was told when I
• 28:48
  S8: was 24, is that meant to endure? And somehow if
• 28:53
  S8: when I'm 54, I'm not doing the same thing I
• 28:55
  S8: was doing when I was 24, that I felt very
• 28:57
  S8: strongly I was called to. Did I not hear God?
• 28:59
  S2: Yeah.
• 28:59
  S8: Is it what does that even mean? So this is
• 29:02
  S8: what this is the discovery. You know, it's that calling
• 29:05
  S8: is not a one time event. You know, hearing God
• 29:08
  S8: call us into his mission in some way, into some
• 29:10
  S8: assignment in our life that gives us purpose and clarity
• 29:13
  S8: and centers us in his mission. And his kingdom is
• 29:16
  S8: not meant to be something that happens to you only
• 29:18
  S8: in your, in your, your early life and that you
• 29:21
  S8: never you never speak to God again. You know that
• 29:23
  S8: actually it's more than once at whatever, whatever someone might
• 29:27
  S8: think about my theory. It's definitely more than once. And
• 29:31
  S8: I'm making an argument that there's about there's these six
• 29:34
  S8: turning points, these six kind of transitions.
• 29:37
  S2: Okay, so let's talk through those a little bit, starting
• 29:40
  S2: with the one that for most of our listeners is
• 29:43
  S2: well behind them. The first two, probably the from our
• 29:47
  S2: earliest years, let's talk about what calling the season of
• 29:50
  S2: calling looks like in our childhood.
• 29:52
  S8: Yeah. So I settled on these kind of 12 year increments, these,
• 29:57
  S8: these pretty, pretty chunky, solid, clear developmental increments, especially in
• 30:03
  S8: early life. So 0 to 12. Obviously, that's pretty well documented.
• 30:08
  S8: Early childhood psychology. That's a whole field that you can,
• 30:12
  S8: you can enter into. And we know what it's like to,
• 30:15
  S8: to go from, you know, being a little child to
• 30:17
  S8: hitting puberty and the world begins to change, you know,
• 30:20
  S8: middle schools, it rocks us and it changes us. And
• 30:23
  S8: then that that second day, that second season, um, from
• 30:28
  S8: 12 to 24 is also pretty well documented. You know,
• 30:31
  S8: that adolescence period. And then what we now know about
• 30:34
  S8: neuroplasticity and, and the formation of our prefrontal cortex kind
• 30:38
  S8: of being finished around 24, 25 years old. And, um,
• 30:42
  S8: and so I'm trying to say in each of those
• 30:44
  S8: 12 year increments, there's a kind of shared calling that
• 30:48
  S8: we all have to reflect the goodness of God and
• 30:52
  S8: his developmental intent in us. And so I would, I
• 30:55
  S8: would argue that the first 12 years for a child, uh,
• 30:58
  S8: you know, that developmental intent is to bond with people
• 31:02
  S8: around you. Um, and, and that the way in which
• 31:06
  S8: you do that is primarily through play and adventure, and
• 31:08
  S8: to see the world as a place that isn't a
• 31:10
  S8: place to necessarily be afraid of, but a place to,
• 31:13
  S8: to discover things. And then maybe in that second adolescent period, uh,
• 31:18
  S8: that second day, uh, 12 to 24. I think it's
• 31:23
  S8: about learning. You know, I would say that's a student.
• 31:25
  S8: That's the year of being a student or a learner. And,
• 31:28
  S8: and part of what adolescents do is they test the world.
• 31:31
  S8: You know, they test boundaries, they question things. Um, and
• 31:35
  S8: I want to, I want to argue that that's, that's
• 31:38
  S8: precisely what God is wanting them to do at that
• 31:41
  S8: phase of their life. And a good parent, a good
• 31:43
  S8: teacher will understand that's, that's healthy. And, and, and I
• 31:47
  S8: also make an argument for like developmental blockers. So things
• 31:51
  S8: that can go wrong in those periods of our lives where,
• 31:54
  S8: where maybe that doesn't happen.
• 31:57
  S2: So let's shift to early career, mid-career, two seasons of calling, uh,
• 32:02
  S2: by my math, that's from 24 all the way up
• 32:06
  S2: to mid to late 40s. Is that, is that about
• 32:09
  S2: right for early and mid-career?
• 32:11
  S8: Yeah. So I want to argue that that your early 20s,
• 32:14
  S8: you know, 24 to 36 is, is about, um, kind
• 32:17
  S8: of being a soldier, being a worker, being someone who
• 32:20
  S8: can be under someone else's leadership and, and, and learning
• 32:23
  S8: to follow. Essentially, this is, you know, I think spiritually,
• 32:27
  S8: we there's a lot of cautionary tales of folks that
• 32:29
  S8: are pushed into roles too soon and haven't learned to submit,
• 32:33
  S8: haven't learned to be humble, haven't learned to learn. I
• 32:36
  S8: haven't learned to follow someone else's leadership. So it's about
• 32:39
  S8: character development. It's about formation. And I think we're we're
• 32:42
  S8: at our best in our early 20s when we let
• 32:45
  S8: God shape us, form us, forge us, and, and, and,
• 32:49
  S8: and that comes through trying everything. I mean, so I,
• 32:52
  S8: I would argue if you're in your 20s and early 30s,
• 32:54
  S8: like take every assignment they give you at your job,
• 32:57
  S8: you know, work for someone good and try everything. But
• 33:01
  S8: that leads, I would say into kind of like 36
• 33:03
  S8: to 48. I want to say that's from student to
• 33:08
  S8: worker to maker and, and the maker period of our
• 33:11
  S8: lives is probably like our high output. That's our, that's
• 33:15
  S8: our kind of creative mark on the world, uh, that
• 33:19
  S8: we're meant to do something that maybe no one else
• 33:21
  S8: can do, or to bring some kind of contribution to
• 33:23
  S8: the world that no one else can can bring. But
• 33:26
  S8: I want to say so. So that reduces some of
• 33:29
  S8: the pressure that you got to figure out, what am I, Mark?
• 33:30
  S8: AM I supposed to make on on the world when
• 33:32
  S8: I'm 23? Yeah. Like that's too don't worry about that yet. Uh, but,
• 33:37
  S8: but you may know this, but by the time you
• 33:39
  S8: hit your mid 30s, you start figuring out what you're
• 33:41
  S8: actually good at and what you're actually not good at.
• 33:44
  S8: And you should start saying no to the things you're
• 33:46
  S8: not good at. And you should let God use you
• 33:49
  S8: double down on the things that you know. In fact,
• 33:51
  S8: this is what I believe. And also you've learned to follow.
• 33:54
  S8: You've learned to submit. You've you've built some character. So
• 33:57
  S8: it's okay for you to step up and say, I'm
• 33:58
  S8: going to do something different. I'm going to challenge the
• 34:00
  S8: system I'm in. I'm going to create something different or new. Uh,
• 34:04
  S8: because I think it can be done better or something
• 34:06
  S8: like that, that those are the years maybe to do that.
• 34:09
  S2: Yeah. And then let's hit the late career transition stage of,
• 34:14
  S2: of calling.
• 34:16
  S8: And so that's where I am now. So I would,
• 34:17
  S8: I would. Day five, I would call so so maker
• 34:21
  S8: to mentor. This is the 48 to, to 60. Um,
• 34:26
  S8: and you know, I think what happens to us developmentally,
• 34:30
  S8: and I think this is very healthy is that we
• 34:31
  S8: want to move a little bit out of center. Like
• 34:33
  S8: a healthy person doesn't need to run the company anymore,
• 34:36
  S8: or doesn't need to be the one at the center
• 34:39
  S8: of the thing that they've created or the, the, the
• 34:42
  S8: work that they do. You start to see yourself as
• 34:45
  S8: wanting to help other people achieve something or you. And
• 34:49
  S8: of course, these things are always true and they're cumulative to.
• 34:52
  S8: That's important to say that it's not like we abandon
• 34:54
  S8: the lessons of earlier life. So I think in that
• 34:57
  S8: mentor phase, you're really looking to like see other people
• 35:00
  S8: succeed or invest in other people, um, a bit more.
• 35:04
  S2: So how can understanding this framework and we've given you
• 35:07
  S2: just kind of a flyover of it, but how can
• 35:10
  S2: this framework help you to discern the call of God
• 35:13
  S2: wherever you happen to find yourself right now and obviously
• 35:17
  S2: taken into account that some people come to faith, genuine
• 35:21
  S2: faith in Christ early in life. Some people it's not
• 35:24
  S2: until much later in life. So that's certainly going to
• 35:27
  S2: change a lot of this. But how do we use
• 35:29
  S2: this framework to help discern what should I be doing
• 35:31
  S2: right now? What does God have for me?
• 35:34
  S8: I think part of it is, is maybe to locate
• 35:36
  S8: yourself in this, in this typology that I'm creating and
• 35:40
  S8: to think, you know, okay, where am I? You can
• 35:42
  S8: actually just say, how old am I in? And oh,
• 35:44
  S8: and as I've had this conversation with hundreds of people,
• 35:47
  S8: I think there's a relief a bit that, okay, I'm
• 35:50
  S8: actually where I should be. I'm feeling what I should
• 35:53
  S8: be feeling the other, the other big contribution. I think
• 35:55
  S8: that something like this can make is that when we,
• 35:59
  S8: when we go through these, what I would call a
• 36:01
  S8: calling cycle where you, you, something happens. So it's about
• 36:06
  S8: 48 or something where or about 60 where you, you
• 36:10
  S8: feel like this isn't quite right. Like my life doesn't
• 36:12
  S8: fit anymore. Somehow like something has changed and what I
• 36:16
  S8: was doing before doesn't feel quite right. And who I
• 36:18
  S8: am feels somehow different. And what that does is that
• 36:22
  S8: that creates that, that crisis of identity, of like, who
• 36:25
  S8: am I now? So like, we have six kids. The
• 36:28
  S8: last one is going to college next weekend, you know,
• 36:32
  S8: and so that's it. That's, that's the empty nest. And
• 36:35
  S8: so my wife and I are looking at each other,
• 36:37
  S8: you know, who are we now? What are we if
• 36:39
  S8: we're not parents in that way? And that is a
• 36:42
  S8: crisis that sends you into intimacy with God. It sends
• 36:46
  S8: you back into the place of prayer the same way
• 36:49
  S8: you did when you were 20, when you were trying
• 36:51
  S8: to figure out what to do with your life and,
• 36:54
  S8: and the unknowing of that. And then God will speak.
• 36:57
  S8: What I think that cycle looks like is a kind
• 36:59
  S8: of crisis of identity, which leads you into the place
• 37:01
  S8: of prayer and intimacy. And then you hear God speak
• 37:03
  S8: over you words of identity like you are this kind
• 37:07
  S8: of this is who I made you to be or
• 37:08
  S8: who I'm calling you to be, which then leads to
• 37:11
  S8: an assignment. So the last part of that cycle is
• 37:13
  S8: a new maybe work or a new assignment or a
• 37:16
  S8: new place to be involved. But that crisis creates something
• 37:21
  S8: really beautiful and powerful, and it happens in the exact
• 37:24
  S8: same way to a 60 year old as it does
• 37:26
  S8: to a 24 year old. This is this is what
• 37:29
  S8: I think is the real contribution is to is to
• 37:32
  S8: feel in that moment of newness. And, and so you can,
• 37:36
  S8: you can see, you know, 60 some year olds running
• 37:38
  S8: around with this, this new lease on life, this new
• 37:41
  S8: awareness of like, I have this new dynamic calling. And also,
• 37:45
  S8: you could be 48 years old and be thinking, this
• 37:48
  S8: doesn't feel right. Something isn't right about my life. Lord,
• 37:50
  S8: what is going on? And that's very healthy.
• 37:53
  S2: So maybe that midlife crisis is actually an invitation to,
• 37:58
  S2: to lean into God.
• 38:00
  S8: I say in the tech world, you know, it's a feature,
• 38:02
  S8: not a bug. It's a feature, not a bug.
• 38:04
  S2: Brian Sanders, our guest, the book is called The Six
• 38:07
  S2: Seasons of Calling Discovering Your Purpose in Each Stage of Life.
• 38:10
  S2: We'll send you the details, just text seasons to 805 557898,
• 38:16
  S2: text seasons to 805 557898.
• 38:21
  S1: He's a sports fanatic with a stat for anything you
• 38:24
  S1: can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew, its
• 38:28
  S1: curling crew on Moody Radio.
• 38:31
  S2: Well, Thursday, bottom of the 8:00 hour central time. Time
• 38:36
  S2: for make it a metaphor.
• 38:38
  S1: Finding nuggets of truth in everyday life.
• 38:41
  S9: It's a metaphor. It's just a metaphor, dude.
• 38:43
  S10: That's a metaphor.
• 38:45
  S9: It's a metaphor. I know it's a metaphor.
• 38:47
  S1: It's time for. Make it a metaphor with young thunder.
• 38:52
  S2: Young Thunder has a knack for finding the spiritual application
• 38:56
  S2: in just about anything. So we turned it into a
• 39:00
  S2: segment where his challenge, we give him a story, or
• 39:03
  S2: you give him a story. He does not get any
• 39:06
  S2: heads up as to what's coming. It's important to note
• 39:09
  S2: he hears it live just as you do. So I'm
• 39:13
  S2: going to give you a story.
• 39:15
  S3: Go for.
• 39:15
  S2: It. Okay. So I took a flight recently and I
• 39:18
  S2: was really excited because I had I bought myself a
• 39:21
  S2: new luggage set.
• 39:23
  S3: Ooh.
• 39:23
  S2: Because I see people who travel and they, they look
• 39:27
  S2: really nice when they travel. They have on like a
• 39:29
  S2: nice put together outfit. And then they have a matching
• 39:32
  S2: luggage set. And I've never been somebody who cared about
• 39:35
  S2: such things. But then I thought one day, why shouldn't
• 39:37
  S2: I be somebody who has a nice, nice looking luggage
• 39:41
  S2: set and goes through the airport and looks put together
• 39:43
  S2: like these other people? So I bought myself a matching
• 39:46
  S2: luggage set, this one of those hardback, um, carry on
• 39:50
  S2: suitcases and this cool looking like tan brown color and
• 39:55
  S2: then a matching little over the shoulder bag. And so
• 39:58
  S2: I'm someone who gets really excited when I get new
• 40:00
  S2: things and I can't wait to use it. So this
• 40:02
  S2: recent flight afforded me the opportunity to use my new luggage.
• 40:06
  S2: So I felt such pride walking through the airport with
• 40:10
  S2: this very regular piece of luggage, by the way. But
• 40:13
  S2: it was exciting to me. So I get on the
• 40:15
  S2: flight with my personal item and then my carry on.
• 40:19
  S2: And so I go and I go to lift up
• 40:22
  S2: that bag to put it in the overhead bin. And Houston,
• 40:25
  S2: we have a problem.
• 40:26
  S3: Uh oh.
• 40:27
  S2: This was not one of those, the regular big jets.
• 40:30
  S2: This was more of a regional jet and I did.
• 40:33
  S2: I failed to realize that the regional jet have a
• 40:36
  S2: smaller overhead bin. So this you know, this over this
• 40:42
  S2: what's not oversized? It was a regular sized carry on.
• 40:45
  S2: I could not get it to fit into the bin.
• 40:48
  S2: It didn't fit. So then I had the problem of
• 40:51
  S2: I'm standing there with a piece of luggage that doesn't fit.
• 40:54
  S2: As more and more people are streaming on to the flight.
• 40:57
  S2: So then I become a problem because me and my
• 41:02
  S2: bag that won't fit are now in the way. So
• 41:05
  S2: I start to get a panic a little bit. So
• 41:08
  S2: I'm trying to move against the flow of traffic to
• 41:10
  S2: get back to my seat with my bag that doesn't fit. I.
• 41:14
  S2: Long story short, I eventually had to with great disappointment
• 41:19
  S2: gate check my bag, which I hate doing because I
• 41:22
  S2: don't like parting with. I just like to keep it
• 41:24
  S2: with me to get in and out quickly. So I
• 41:26
  S2: had this beautiful new bag, but my first experience traveling
• 41:29
  S2: with it, I hadn't checked in advance to see if
• 41:32
  S2: it fit the dimensions of that particular flight. It did
• 41:36
  S2: not fit. Make it a metaphor.
• 41:38
  S3: Jonathan Ali There are really good things in this life
• 41:44
  S3: that when you don't have the capacity for them, they
• 41:48
  S3: become burdens.
• 41:50
  S5: This is good.
• 41:51
  S3: You had a great new bag. It was perfect. But
• 41:55
  S3: the plane, although it was a good bag, there's nothing
• 41:57
  S3: wrong with the bag. I was almost expecting you to say,
• 41:59
  S3: like you pulled up the little handle on the suitcase
• 42:01
  S3: and it just, like, fell off of it. Like, no,
• 42:04
  S3: everything about the bags were good, but the thing that
• 42:08
  S3: was going to take the bag had no capacity to
• 42:11
  S3: do it. And it became a hard thing. As you're
• 42:15
  S3: telling the story, the first thing that popped up in
• 42:17
  S3: my head was Exodus 18. Moses is leading the Israelites
• 42:22
  S3: out of Egypt. They're out in the wilderness, and Moses's
• 42:25
  S3: father in law comes and, and he he comes with
• 42:28
  S3: Moses's family, his wife and his kids to rejoice with
• 42:31
  S3: him about what God's done. And as he's walking with Moses,
• 42:34
  S3: he sees that all of the people of Israel, this
• 42:37
  S3: large group of people, they're coming to Moses with all
• 42:41
  S3: of their problems. And obviously, we know that Moses doesn't
• 42:45
  S3: have the capacity to handle all of that. And Moses's
• 42:49
  S3: father in law, Jethro, says, Moses, what you're doing here
• 42:52
  S3: is not good. Yeah, helping the people is a good thing.
• 42:57
  S3: But Moses didn't have the capacity for that, and he's
• 42:59
  S3: overworking himself. It's impossible. The people aren't going to benefit
• 43:03
  S3: from that. And neither is Moses. And so he helps
• 43:05
  S3: Moses by spreading out the burden and saying, okay, we're
• 43:10
  S3: going to do these people are going to handle this issue,
• 43:12
  S3: and these people are going to handle the greater issues.
• 43:14
  S3: You're going to handle the greatest of the great issues,
• 43:17
  S3: but you're not going to handle every single issue. It's
• 43:20
  S3: really important that we understand our capacity in life. There
• 43:25
  S3: can be too much of good things. So we have
• 43:30
  S3: to go before God and say, God, I've got a
• 43:33
  S3: lot of good things going on in my life right now,
• 43:35
  S3: but all of them together, I don't have the capacity
• 43:37
  S3: to handle that. Would you show me what I need
• 43:40
  S3: to take out of my life, what I need to
• 43:41
  S3: change in order to experience more joy? Because these good
• 43:45
  S3: things are becoming burdens.
• 43:47
  S2: Oh boy, make it a metaphor. I did not know
• 43:51
  S2: where you were going with that.
• 43:53
  S3: Me neither. For a little bit.
• 43:54
  S2: That was a good one. It will be in our show.
• 43:57
  S2: Cast text showed 805 557898, showed 805 557898.