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The Galaxy’s Sugary Center Could Change How Life Began · Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

• 0:00
  Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks again for joining us. This
• 0:02
  is Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy, space
• 0:05
  science and anything else that tends to pop
• 0:08
  up. We've talked about trains, we've talked
• 0:09
  about movies, we've talked about dogs and
• 0:12
  cats and we might be talking about dogs
• 0:14
  today. In fact, we are, strangely enough,
• 0:16
  nothing to do with the Dog Star either. We're
• 0:19
  also, uh, going to talk about something quite
• 0:21
  sweet. We did Salty recently with the Pink
• 0:24
  Planet, but now we've found out, um,
• 0:27
  there's a sugary centre in our, uh, galaxy.
• 0:30
  And what might happen when we land on the
• 0:33
  moon again. Uh, it's not good news, as it
• 0:35
  turns out. We'll talk about all of that on
• 0:37
  this episode of space nuts.
• 0:40
  Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
• 0:42
  10, 9. Ignition
• 0:45
  sequence start.
• 0:46
  Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.
• 0:47
  Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. 2, 3, 4,
• 0:50
  5, 5, 4, 3, 2', 1.
• 0:52
  Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.
• 0:53
  Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.
• 0:56
  Andrew Dunkley: He's back again for more. I don't know how he
• 0:58
  keeps it up because, um, I don't know. I
• 1:01
  worked in radio for 40 years and lost my
• 1:03
  voice many times. So Fred Watson never loses
• 1:05
  his. It's Professor Fred Watson Watson,
• 1:06
  Astronomer at Large. Hello, Fred Watson.
• 1:08
  Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Um, you probably jinxed us
• 1:11
  now. I probably have coughing in the
• 1:13
  bathroom.
• 1:14
  Andrew Dunkley: One famous case I must tell you about. I
• 1:16
  worked for a rock station in Newcastle many
• 1:18
  years ago and I was doing a Saturday
• 1:19
  afternoon shift.
• 1:21
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
• 1:21
  Andrew Dunkley: And I must have had a virus of some kind
• 1:23
  that, that was sort of living underneath the
• 1:26
  radar. And during the progression
• 1:29
  of my four hour shift. Was it four or six?
• 1:32
  Might have been six. My voice just
• 1:34
  deteriorated and deteriorated to the point
• 1:36
  where I actually couldn't talk, couldn't make
• 1:39
  a sound. And the programme director
• 1:42
  rang and said, what's going on?
• 1:43
  Professor Fred Watson: I said.
• 1:47
  Andrew Dunkley: So he had to come in and take over from me.
• 1:50
  Was not happy. I mean, I can't.
• 1:51
  Professor Fred Watson: You can't help it. No, you can't. That's
• 1:54
  right, you can't help it.
• 1:55
  Andrew Dunkley: But, uh, yeah, that's one of my famous
• 1:57
  moments in radio. Or is it infamous? I don't
• 2:00
  know.
• 2:00
  Professor Fred Watson: Infamous. That's right, yeah.
• 2:01
  Andrew Dunkley: Amongst many. I should write a book.
• 2:04
  Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's what you need to do. Yes, you
• 2:06
  should, you should write a book.
• 2:07
  Andrew Dunkley: Because behind the scenes in radio, um, most
• 2:09
  people never know any of the stuff that
• 2:11
  happens. And some weird stuff happens. Yes,
• 2:14
  some very weird stuff.
• 2:15
  Professor Fred Watson: Yep, yep.
• 2:16
  Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, uh. Oh, how are you, by the
• 2:18
  way?
• 2:18
  Professor Fred Watson: Oh, I'm fine, thank you. Uh, all good. Still
• 2:20
  supporting my, um, collision with the screen
• 2:23
  door the other night.
• 2:24
  Andrew Dunkley: But it's looking a little better.
• 2:25
  Professor Fred Watson: It's Getting better.
• 2:27
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the orbital rotation is starting to,
• 2:30
  you know, look less radical.
• 2:33
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, no, it's good. Uh, I wear it with
• 2:35
  pride.
• 2:36
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, you do. Um, at your age, though, it
• 2:39
  might take 10 years to fade.
• 2:41
  Now, um,
• 2:44
  before we get started, uh, we've received,
• 2:46
  um, a message from, um, uh, one of your,
• 2:50
  um, friends and colleagues.
• 2:52
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, from Peter Verwein, who's our link
• 2:55
  with the world of Mondo Modified Newtonian
• 2:57
  Dynamics. I actually saw him, uh,
• 3:01
  last week at the, uh, Astronomical Society of
• 3:03
  Australia's annual science meeting and
• 3:06
  he said he'd dropped me a line with an update
• 3:08
  and I, uh, asked him if he'd mind if I read
• 3:10
  the update out on Space Notes. And he said
• 3:12
  no, he wouldn't. Uh, but he did preface it
• 3:14
  by, um, having, uh,
• 3:17
  mentioning that they'd heard from the
• 3:20
  originator of mond, Modified Newtonian
• 3:22
  Dynamics, Mordechai Milgrom, who,
• 3:25
  um, seems to be calling it something else
• 3:27
  now, uh, which was Ether
• 3:30
  Scalar tensor theory.
• 3:31
  Andrew Dunkley: Oh my goodness.
• 3:32
  Professor Fred Watson: Aest. Uh, yeah, uh,
• 3:35
  but, um, uh, he
• 3:38
  basically keeps going with his research.
• 3:40
  Although, um, Peter suspects he's
• 3:43
  suggesting that the theory needs a complete
• 3:45
  rethink, which apparently Peter's been doing
• 3:48
  as well. Let me read what he says though,
• 3:50
  because I think it's quite interesting for
• 3:52
  anybody who's been following this argument.
• 3:54
  Mond, of course, is an alternative theory,
• 3:56
  uh, of, um, basically
• 3:59
  gravity. Except it's not gravity, it's
• 4:01
  acceleration, uh, which postulates
• 4:04
  that at very low accelerations, uh,
• 4:06
  Newton's laws don't hold. The accelerations
• 4:09
  behave in a different way. Uh, and by
• 4:12
  very low, I mean the kind of accelerations
• 4:14
  that you get outside. Um,
• 4:17
  sorry, in terms of the movement of
• 4:20
  objects around a galaxy, uh, things in the
• 4:23
  solar system are accelerating too rapidly for
• 4:26
  this to show up. That was the original
• 4:28
  premise. And it's of course, uh, an
• 4:30
  explanation for why galaxies don't fly apart
• 4:34
  as we think they should, because they're
• 4:36
  rotating too fast for what we can see to hold
• 4:38
  them together. And of course that's why we
• 4:41
  postulate dark matter, the stuff that we
• 4:43
  think is invisible but does hold them
• 4:45
  together. So, reading from Peter's
• 4:47
  email, uh, he says in a very vague sense
• 4:50
  the universe might be like an onion, a bit
• 4:53
  like Shrek, if you know the movie reference.
• 4:56
  Imagine a bubble universe expanding from
• 4:58
  within its progenitor universe. In this case,
• 5:01
  the word universe can still be because like
• 5:04
  an onion over time as bubble universes
• 5:06
  explode into existence. Yes, like a Big Bang.
• 5:09
  Within the universe we get layers.
• 5:11
  Penrose's book, Cycles of Time
• 5:14
  explains the concept of a cyclic universe
• 5:16
  quite well, but he does some mathematical
• 5:19
  magic with how he handles scaling.
• 5:22
  Our idea is similar but offers an alternative
• 5:25
  explanation as to why these bubbles explode
• 5:27
  in the first place. And uh, as our
• 5:30
  idea develops, not a theory yet, we are
• 5:33
  noting similarities to other theories and
• 5:35
  models like K essence, which,
• 5:38
  um, I haven't heard of. And I bet you haven't
• 5:40
  either, Andrew. No, um, there's much to do to
• 5:43
  fully develop this into a theory that
• 5:45
  explains dark energy and dark matter. But one
• 5:47
  thing to note, looking for evidence of
• 5:49
  modified gravity around a black hole should
• 5:52
  be like looking for a needle in a needle
• 5:54
  stack. That's why the paper reporting
• 5:57
  mass discrepancies around supermassive black
• 6:00
  holes might put a dampener on quite a few
• 6:03
  modified gravity ideas. And
• 6:05
  we actually covered that, that uh, it was uh,
• 6:08
  the evidence that there's stuff outside a
• 6:11
  black hole that is not normal matter.
• 6:14
  So thank you very much, Peter. Thanks for the
• 6:16
  update. And um, we'll continue
• 6:19
  to watch with interest what happens in the
• 6:21
  world of mond.
• 6:22
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed.
• 6:23
  Professor Fred Watson: Oh, sorry, aast.
• 6:25
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, as it's now called. Uh,
• 6:28
  yes, and lovely to hear from Peter as well.
• 6:30
  It's great that we get these little pieces of
• 6:33
  input from everyone
• 6:36
  and anyone
• 6:37
  Professor Fred Watson: friends around the world.
• 6:38
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed. Let's get into our topics
• 6:41
  for today, Fred Watson.
• 6:43
  And our first one sort um of follows on
• 6:45
  from um, its uh,
• 6:48
  opposing, um, platform which was
• 6:51
  our salty pink planet, which we spoke about,
• 6:54
  um, uh, a few episodes back.
• 6:57
  This uh, is at the opposite end of the
• 6:59
  scale. We're going from salty to very sweet,
• 7:03
  uh, because it looks like our galaxy has a
• 7:05
  sugary centre. Now what's interesting to
• 7:08
  me, Fred Watson, is that sugar in the
• 7:11
  universe is not uncommon.
• 7:13
  Professor Fred Watson: It's not. That's right. Uh, we've
• 7:16
  found it apparently, um, in
• 7:19
  um, asteroids actually.
• 7:21
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, and wait for it. That's why
• 7:24
  the universe is expanding at an accelerating
• 7:26
  rate.
• 7:29
  Professor Fred Watson: Well, that could be one explanation. That's
• 7:31
  right. And it's certainly the waistline
• 7:33
  that's expanding. Uh, so yes,
• 7:37
  uh, it's a sugar. There are, there are. Sugar
• 7:39
  comes in different varieties. It's basically
• 7:41
  a chemical, um, defined by the
• 7:44
  number of carbon atoms there are in it
• 7:47
  and how it combines with other atoms. So
• 7:50
  this particular one is called
• 7:52
  erythrulose. I'm not sure whether I'm
• 7:55
  pronouncing that correctly, but that's what
• 7:56
  it looks like. Um, and its chemical formula
• 7:59
  is C4H8O4. So
• 8:02
  four atoms each of carbon and oxygen and
• 8:04
  eight of hydrogen. Um, so,
• 8:08
  uh, it Comes under a classification known as
• 8:10
  ketos. I've heard of those. As you know, I'm
• 8:13
  not a chemist.
• 8:13
  Andrew Dunkley: So isn't there a keto diet or am I getting
• 8:16
  that mixed up with something?
• 8:17
  Professor Fred Watson: It could be, yeah, yeah, could be all sorts
• 8:20
  of things. All sorts of diets these days.
• 8:22
  Yes. But it, but it's this time.
• 8:24
  These molecules of sugar have been
• 8:27
  detected in interstellar space rather
• 8:30
  than, you know, in, um, uh,
• 8:33
  meteorites or asteroid samples or whatever.
• 8:36
  Uh, and those gas clouds where
• 8:39
  they've been detected are actually near the
• 8:42
  centre of our galaxy. So it seems
• 8:45
  that it is probably something quite
• 8:47
  ubiquitous in the galaxy. Uh,
• 8:50
  um. It's a particular class of sugar and
• 8:53
  I'm sure you've noted that it is actually the
• 8:56
  same sugar that you find in raspberries.
• 8:58
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes.
• 8:59
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, which, um. Yeah, it's just.
• 9:01
  It's bizarre, isn't it? I don't know why
• 9:03
  we're surprised, because. No, that's right.
• 9:05
  Andrew Dunkley: We are made up of the stuff of the universe,
• 9:07
  so it stands to reason.
• 9:10
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's correct. Uh, and, uh, yes, it
• 9:13
  does. And, um. So basically,
• 9:16
  you know, uh, sugar is one of the.
• 9:19
  What you might call a prebiotic here. I'm
• 9:22
  losing my voice after our conversation
• 9:23
  before, what we might call a
• 9:26
  prebiotic molecule, um, one
• 9:28
  that, uh, is what we do, loosely termed
• 9:31
  part of the building blocks of life. But
• 9:33
  they, you know, these key ingredients of life
• 9:36
  basically conform deep in the
• 9:39
  universe, uh, in these, what are called
• 9:42
  molecular clouds, uh, giant molecular
• 9:45
  clouds, molecular nebulae, uh, and
• 9:47
  you can get them before stars and planets
• 9:50
  form. That's the bottom line. So you don't
• 9:52
  need the planet formation process or the star
• 9:55
  formation process to synthesise sugar. It
• 9:58
  can happen in the cold of, uh, space.
• 10:00
  Andrew Dunkley: That's amazing.
• 10:01
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. It's quite extraordinary.
• 10:04
  Um, uh, it's
• 10:06
  basically some research that's come from
• 10:08
  Spanish astronomers, using Spanish
• 10:10
  telescopes, I think, radio telescopes. Uh,
• 10:13
  so a very interesting piece of research and
• 10:16
  there's a sort of corollary which, uh,
• 10:19
  suggests that perhaps in the
• 10:22
  early universe, perhaps before the solar
• 10:25
  system formed, um, the
• 10:27
  residual gas cloud in
• 10:30
  which the solar system, um,
• 10:33
  formed had sugar in it, which
• 10:36
  suggests perhaps the young
• 10:39
  Earth and the young solar system was
• 10:40
  bombarded by these sugar molecules,
• 10:43
  uh, as the formation took place. We don't
• 10:46
  know that, but that's a suggestion that's
• 10:48
  been made. So, yeah, um, and there's a lot
• 10:51
  of it, uh, this stuff. So it's, uh, sitting
• 10:54
  there in the galactic centre, sweetening it
• 10:56
  very nicely.
• 10:57
  Andrew Dunkley: Amazing. And, uh, interesting. And I suppose
• 11:00
  it just adds one more flavour. Boom boom. To
• 11:03
  all of those things that are out there that
• 11:05
  we're learning are uh, very, very common now
• 11:07
  like water, uh, salt and
• 11:10
  iron and all this other
• 11:12
  stuff. It's all just part of
• 11:15
  the conglomeration we call the universe.
• 11:18
  And yeah, shouldn't be surprising that we've
• 11:21
  found sugar which um, will
• 11:24
  make a lot of people happy. There's a lot of
• 11:26
  sugar addicts out there.
• 11:27
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, there's one sitting here.
• 11:29
  Andrew Dunkley: I'm one of them as well.
• 11:30
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
• 11:31
  Andrew Dunkley: M. My wife is more of the salty variety.
• 11:34
  Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yes.
• 11:36
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, if you'd like to read all about it,
• 11:38
  there's a great article on the
• 11:40
  abc.net.au
• 11:42
  website about it. And uh, I'm guessing there
• 11:45
  was a paper published Fred Watson, which I
• 11:47
  have not been able to find while we've been
• 11:49
  talking.
• 11:49
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's in nature astronomy.
• 11:51
  Andrew Dunkley: Of course it is. Yes. There you go. This is
• 11:54
  Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor
• 11:57
  Fred Watson Watson.
• 12:00
  Professor Fred Watson: I'm going to step off the land now.
• 12:04
  That's one small step for man,
• 12:09
  one biofuel for mankind.
• 12:12
  Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.
• 12:14
  Andrew Dunkley: Okay Fred Watson, let's uh, go back to the
• 12:16
  moon. It's uh, certainly getting a lot of
• 12:19
  attention at the moment with the Artemis
• 12:20
  missions and the, the Chines
• 12:23
  presence on the Moon at the moment. Uh, but
• 12:26
  there's a downside to all of this. We're
• 12:28
  putting people back on the Moon in the not
• 12:31
  too distant future. But uh,
• 12:34
  there's concern that this could mess a few
• 12:36
  things up. Particularly um, the way
• 12:39
  we might destroy evidence of the
• 12:42
  origins of life on Earth.
• 12:44
  Professor Fred Watson: Correct. Uh, and that's
• 12:47
  uh, all tied up with kind
• 12:50
  of the reason why um, we're going to the Moon
• 12:52
  in the first place. Uh, and that
• 12:55
  is uh, uh, certainly all the
• 12:58
  in terms of the Artemis mission.
• 13:01
  Uh, the
• 13:04
  cratered regions of the Moon's south pole. In
• 13:07
  particular the Moon's south polar region is
• 13:09
  very heavily cratered. It's mountainous and
• 13:11
  it's not a good place to land. But that's
• 13:13
  apparently where we're going to land. Uh, but
• 13:15
  uh, because of the fact that some of these
• 13:18
  deep craters ah are
• 13:21
  never illuminated by the sun, they're in
• 13:23
  perpetual shadow. Uh, we know,
• 13:25
  uh, at least we did deeply suspect or
• 13:29
  um, perhaps securely suspect that's the way
• 13:31
  to put it, uh, that um, they
• 13:34
  contain uh, ice and
• 13:37
  it's not just a guess. That comes from
• 13:39
  measurements that have been made particularly
• 13:42
  by orbiting spacecraft over the last um,
• 13:44
  decade or two. So we think there is
• 13:47
  ice and it's water ice frozen Water,
• 13:50
  uh, down there in these deep craters. Uh,
• 13:53
  and. But that ice could
• 13:56
  be a bit of a treasure trove
• 14:00
  of the stuff
• 14:02
  that would have been entrapped,
• 14:05
  uh, coming from space debris, dust,
• 14:08
  probably, uh, interstellar, interplanetary
• 14:11
  dust. Uh, there's probably stuff that hit
• 14:13
  from asteroids in the early history of the
• 14:16
  solar system and comets. Um,
• 14:19
  so we think there might be this trove of
• 14:21
  ancient molecules, again, a bit like what
• 14:24
  we've just been talking about, trapped in the
• 14:26
  ice near the southern polar regions or in
• 14:29
  the southern polar regions of the Moon.
• 14:33
  Um, and they're something that we'd really
• 14:35
  like to know about, um, because
• 14:39
  if we could, um, see some of these
• 14:41
  molecules, um, which no longer exist
• 14:44
  on the Earth because the Earth is a very
• 14:46
  dynamic geology and atmospheric
• 14:49
  physics. Um, they've been recycled,
• 14:51
  they've turned into life, they've done all
• 14:53
  their thing. But if we could find these
• 14:55
  prebiotic molecules on the Moon,
• 14:58
  uh, uh, that might be a way of
• 15:01
  seeing how they eventually combined and
• 15:04
  life emerged. Uh, that would be a
• 15:07
  sensational discovery to work out
• 15:10
  what triggers life. How does it start? Uh, we
• 15:13
  know that the prerequisites of life,
• 15:16
  molecular prerequisites, are, uh, sort
• 15:19
  of everywhere. But, uh, we don't know what
• 15:21
  the chemistry was like that caused life to
• 15:23
  come into being. So because the moon is
• 15:27
  almost like a time capsule in this regard,
• 15:30
  uh, we would like to preserve this ice, uh,
• 15:33
  and keep it safe. Um,
• 15:36
  so, uh, where it is now is fine.
• 15:39
  But the landing
• 15:42
  process of bringing a spacecraft down to the
• 15:45
  moon has an issue in
• 15:48
  relation to this ice and it is done by,
• 15:51
  um. This has been flagged because of
• 15:53
  computer modelling that's been carried out,
• 15:56
  uh, in the study that we're reporting. Um,
• 15:59
  and that modelling suggests
• 16:03
  that, uh, the
• 16:05
  exhaust that comes from the
• 16:08
  rockets, the motors that will be used to
• 16:11
  touch down on the moon, and there isn't
• 16:13
  really another way of doing it. You can't do
• 16:16
  a re entry like the shuttle did because
• 16:18
  there's no atmosphere to re enter. But the
• 16:20
  exhaust is rich in methane and
• 16:23
  that, uh, methane, apparently
• 16:26
  the modelling shows that it could very
• 16:28
  quickly and, and
• 16:30
  permanently contaminate the ice
• 16:34
  and basically get rid of any
• 16:36
  molecule, evidence, uh, that
• 16:39
  we would have found in them otherwise.
• 16:42
  Uh, the modelling suggests
• 16:45
  that, um, what are called
• 16:48
  the organic components, which are part of the
• 16:51
  exhaust of these lunar landers, would spread
• 16:54
  across the moon's surface very, very rapidly.
• 16:57
  Um, uh, and they basically
• 17:00
  studied, uh, how that would happen, including
• 17:03
  the radiation from the sun, including the
• 17:05
  solar wind. But there is a
• 17:07
  suggestion that that atmosphere
• 17:10
  that methane, uh, could very
• 17:13
  rapidly, uh, cover the whole of the lunar
• 17:16
  surface. Uh, the suggestion
• 17:19
  is possibly, uh, reaching from the
• 17:21
  moon's south pole to the north pole, uh,
• 17:25
  in less than a month or a couple of months.
• 17:28
  What we call two lun. Two lunar days. Yes.
• 17:31
  Very, very quickly.
• 17:32
  Professor Fred Watson: Wow.
• 17:34
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, that's a bit scary. Uh, I was going to
• 17:36
  suggest, you know, we've spent all that money
• 17:38
  and time going to Mars looking for life and,
• 17:40
  you know, it might be next door.
• 17:43
  Um, but maybe not. If this keeps up, there's
• 17:46
  probably nothing much that can be done about
• 17:48
  it. Fred Watson.
• 17:49
  Professor Fred Watson: That's right. How do you, you know, how do
• 17:51
  you, um, essentially
• 17:54
  solve this problem? You can't glide down.
• 17:57
  It's got to be using rockets, um,
• 18:00
  and, um, a space elevator.
• 18:03
  Well, yes, the space elevator. There you go.
• 18:05
  But you. Yes. I think you've got.
• 18:07
  Andrew Dunkley: Too costly.
• 18:09
  Professor Fred Watson: You've got to put your rockets on the moon to
• 18:10
  start with, to do that. Well, that's the
• 18:13
  point. You can't just dangle it down.
• 18:15
  Andrew Dunkley: It's a catch 22.
• 18:16
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. There's a comment here from, uh,
• 18:19
  one of the scientists involved with this, who
• 18:21
  is, uh, actually a Portuguese.
• 18:24
  Uh, we have laws regulating contamination
• 18:27
  of Earth, uh, environments like Antarctica
• 18:29
  and national parks. Uh, I think the moon is
• 18:32
  an environment as valuable as those. So the
• 18:34
  suggestion is, you know, maybe there should
• 18:36
  be laws protecting the moon. But the. As
• 18:39
  you said, what's the answer to that? Well,
• 18:42
  don't go there. That's really
• 18:45
  a, uh, very, very interesting piece of
• 18:46
  research. I'm sure this is going to promote,
• 18:48
  uh, or prompt a lot of conversation
• 18:52
  and perhaps debate about the ethics of this.
• 18:54
  And, uh, it'll be checked, I'm sure, very,
• 18:57
  very much, uh, very carefully,
• 18:59
  because that's a really important result.
• 19:02
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Uh, and look, they could
• 19:05
  introduce, uh, an international law
• 19:08
  saying, okay, moon's off limits. It's a
• 19:10
  national park. Can't go there. Um,
• 19:13
  but people will. Anyway, it's the same as we
• 19:16
  were talking about, um, recently with
• 19:19
  nuclear weapons. We already think they're up
• 19:21
  in space even though they're not allowed.
• 19:23
  Professor Fred Watson: Yep, Yep, that's right.
• 19:25
  Andrew Dunkley: So, you know, here's another one. So
• 19:29
  that's not going to work either.
• 19:30
  Professor Fred Watson: I think you're right.
• 19:33
  Uh, knowing human nature, I think you're
• 19:35
  right. And the world we live in today as
• 19:37
  well.
• 19:38
  Andrew Dunkley: Well, you know, it's, it's. It's the old, um,
• 19:42
  sign on the fence that says do not enter.
• 19:44
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
• 19:45
  Andrew Dunkley: You know, someone's going to ignore that.
• 19:47
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Oh, I better go and have a look.
• 19:49
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
• 19:49
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, but my Frisbee.
• 19:51
  Andrew Dunkley: I've got to get my Frisbee.
• 19:52
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes. What am I doing? What am I doing? Just
• 19:55
  for a segue.
• 19:56
  Andrew Dunkley: There. That's what we'll talk about next. But
• 19:59
  if you'd like to follow up on that storey,
• 20:01
  it's on the space.com website or you can read
• 20:03
  the study which was published in the journal,
• 20:06
  uh, the American Geophysical Union. This is
• 20:09
  Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor
• 20:11
  Fred Watson Watson.
• 20:15
  Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.
• 20:17
  Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, uh, we're going to the
• 20:18
  dogs, um, lost dogs specifically. Now
• 20:21
  that's not uncommon, especially after a
• 20:24
  thunderstorm or a tornado. Um,
• 20:28
  and you often see signs around town. You
• 20:31
  know, have you seen my dog? There's a pretty
• 20:33
  picture of the dog on the top of the A4
• 20:35
  banner.
• 20:36
  Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
• 20:37
  Andrew Dunkley: But, um, when you're in an area,
• 20:40
  um, beyond. And there's technology around
• 20:42
  these days where you can put gps, um,
• 20:45
  or you can put trackers that require
• 20:48
  cell phone coverage and things like that on
• 20:50
  your dogs. Um, but that's not
• 20:53
  always practical. Um, but
• 20:56
  now there's a new way, and this is really
• 20:58
  quite fascinating about, uh, using, uh,
• 21:01
  GPS systems, satellite systems
• 21:05
  to connect to your dog's collar.
• 21:07
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes. So you're right,
• 21:10
  that's the perfect intro because, um, these
• 21:13
  devices do exist. Of course. There's um, you
• 21:15
  know, many of us have got air tags that we
• 21:18
  use to keep tracks on, ah, our luggage
• 21:21
  and, and things of that sort. Um,
• 21:24
  and um, we can certainly
• 21:27
  find one of those if it's hanging around your
• 21:30
  dog's neck. Uh, actually our dog doesn't have
• 21:33
  one. Uh, but um, most of my other
• 21:35
  stuff does, uh, which doesn't walk away,
• 21:38
  it just gets left behind. Uh, but the
• 21:41
  issue arises that if you're away
• 21:44
  from a, ah, sort of standard suburban area
• 21:47
  and you really are exploring the wilderness,
• 21:50
  uh, you're nowhere near a cell tower. And
• 21:53
  that means that these devices simply don't
• 21:55
  work. You can't locate your possession or
• 21:58
  your dog. Uh, and so this
• 22:01
  storey is basically about
• 22:04
  how you can use,
• 22:07
  guess what, the Starlink technology, uh,
• 22:11
  um, to essentially find
• 22:13
  your dog even when it's not in
• 22:16
  a, uh, a place covered by a
• 22:19
  cellular network. So,
• 22:22
  uh, that's rather an interesting
• 22:25
  thing because it means that if you are in the
• 22:27
  middle of nowhere, uh, no phone
• 22:30
  coverage, uh, your dog gets lost, you
• 22:33
  can find it. But if you haven't got phone
• 22:34
  coverage, you're not going to know where it
• 22:36
  is. So you've got to have a satellite phone
• 22:38
  as well. Um, so if you've got that,
• 22:41
  um, then you can find your dog. Now, um,
• 22:44
  I am assuming that this relates to places
• 22:47
  where it's not illegal to take your dog into
• 22:50
  wilderness areas, uh, as it is in
• 22:53
  much of Australia, because of the fact that
• 22:56
  we do have endangered species,
• 22:59
  uh, all through our country. And so dogs are
• 23:01
  the last thing that you want. Yeah, we have
• 23:03
  dog fences, in fact, don't we?
• 23:05
  Andrew Dunkley: We do. We do have dog fences and rabbit
• 23:07
  fences and all sorts of things to stop the
• 23:09
  nasties getting through.
• 23:10
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 23:11
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, Jordie would not need this kind of
• 23:13
  technology because when he barks in sy.
• 23:16
  Sydney, I can hear him 300 miles away.
• 23:19
  Professor Fred Watson: He just does one of his howls and everybody
• 23:22
  knows.
• 23:22
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the whole district knows. Yeah.
• 23:24
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 23:25
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, that. That's not an uncommon
• 23:28
  issue in, um, residential areas.
• 23:31
  Uh, the dog barking problems. Um,
• 23:35
  so this is a fairly new thing from what I've
• 23:38
  read, because, uh, it sort of came on
• 23:41
  the back of the Starlink technology.
• 23:44
  Um, but it's also a
• 23:46
  fairly simple thing, I suppose. Uh, if
• 23:49
  you are out in the wilderness and there's no
• 23:51
  mobile coverage and your dog chases a bear or
• 23:54
  whatever, this could
• 23:57
  save its life.
• 23:59
  Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's correct, yes. Uh,
• 24:02
  I guess that's the good side of the storey.
• 24:05
  So, um, there have
• 24:08
  been animal
• 24:11
  trackers for a while. Apparently, uh, 11
• 24:14
  million dogs tracked or monitored by
• 24:16
  GPS in some form. Is that true, uh,
• 24:20
  throughout the world? Yeah. That doesn't
• 24:21
  surprise me there. There's a lot of dogs in
• 24:23
  the world. But, um, this is a step,
• 24:26
  you know, a step further, this, uh, this new
• 24:28
  connectivity, uh, because it's a. It's
• 24:31
  a bit like, um,
• 24:34
  D2M, which is direct to mobile
• 24:37
  from using satellites. If you've got
• 24:39
  direct to mobile, then you've basically got a
• 24:41
  satellite phone and I think Starlink,
• 24:44
  um, um, bringing that out quite soon, if they
• 24:47
  haven't done already. So it's that sort of
• 24:50
  technology. It's the direct to mobile or
• 24:52
  direct to cell technology, uh, that,
• 24:55
  um. That you can now adapt to dogs,
• 24:57
  apparently.
• 24:58
  Andrew Dunkley: Well, now that's a good thing because dogs do
• 25:00
  run away. They get excited and they wander
• 25:03
  off and. Or they. Or they meet another dog
• 25:05
  and next thing you know they're in Siberia.
• 25:09
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's happened. It
• 25:12
  has, yeah.
• 25:13
  Andrew Dunkley: This reminds me of something that was done
• 25:15
  many, many years ago, uh, up around
• 25:18
  the, uh, Warren Bungles. Uh, we used to live,
• 25:21
  uh, in Cootabarabra and
• 25:24
  it was, uh, uh,
• 25:26
  the Judas Goat programme. You remember that?
• 25:30
  Judas, uh, goats.
• 25:31
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I do. I do remember that.
• 25:33
  Andrew Dunkley: Goats are an invasive species and they cause
• 25:36
  a lot of damage. In national parks in
• 25:38
  Australia. So what the National Park Service
• 25:40
  did was they would put, uh,
• 25:43
  a tracking collar. Collar, a GPS collar
• 25:46
  on a goat and they would release the
• 25:49
  goat into the national park,
• 25:51
  knowing that it would eventually find a herd
• 25:54
  of feral goats.
• 25:55
  Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
• 25:56
  Andrew Dunkley: And then they could go in and.
• 25:58
  Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
• 25:58
  Andrew Dunkley: Let's just say deal with them.
• 26:00
  Professor Fred Watson: They do deal with them. They use helicopters
• 26:02
  as well.
• 26:02
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, they do. So the, the old Judas
• 26:05
  goat.
• 26:05
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
• 26:06
  Andrew Dunkley: Was, um, using, uh, this kind
• 26:09
  of technology, but, uh, now it's more freely
• 26:11
  available for, um, for. For domestic
• 26:13
  purposes, I suppose, Fred Watson.
• 26:15
  Professor Fred Watson: That's right. For, um. Yes, for
• 26:18
  other invasive species like dogs and cats.
• 26:22
  Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 26:24
  Professor Fred Watson: Keep them, Keep them out of the national
• 26:25
  parks.
• 26:26
  Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. Uh, really interesting storey. That
• 26:28
  one is also on space.com but,
• 26:31
  um, there's every chance that, um, you
• 26:34
  know, if you're in the right part of the
• 26:36
  world, you might be using this technology
• 26:38
  already. Apparently 11 million dogs do.
• 26:42
  Professor Fred Watson: Ah.
• 26:42
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, gosh, um, I think that brings us to the
• 26:45
  end, Fred Watson. That was quick.
• 26:47
  Professor Fred Watson: It was quick. Uh, and, um, that's
• 26:51
  kind, uh, of brought us up to date, I think,
• 26:52
  hasn't it, with life, the universe and
• 26:54
  everything.
• 26:55
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed, yes. Um, anyway, thank you
• 26:58
  very much. We will catch you on the next
• 26:59
  episode, uh, coming soon.
• 27:02
  Professor Fred Watson: Sounds good. I'll look forward to it. Andrew.
• 27:04
  All the best.
• 27:05
  Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at
• 27:07
  large, part of the team here at Space Nuts,
• 27:09
  and thanks to Huw in the studio. Uh, Huw
• 27:11
  could. Couldn't be with us today. Tends to
• 27:14
  wander off and his wife's fitting, um, a
• 27:16
  GPS collar to him as we
• 27:19
  speak. Uh, and don't forget to visit our
• 27:22
  website, uh, between episodes, Spacenuts
• 27:24
  I.O. and From Me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for
• 27:27
  your company. We'll be back with a new
• 27:28
  episode real soon. See you then.
• 27:30
  Professor Fred Watson: Bye Bye.
• 27:32
  Andrew Dunkley: You've been listening to the Space Nuts
• 27:34
  podcast, available
• 27:37
  at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
• 27:40
  iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast
• 27:42
  player. You can also stream on
• 27:44
  demand@bytes.com M.
• 27:46
  Professor Fred Watson: This has been another quality podcast
• 27:48
  production from bytes.com.