Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.507: Decoding The Microbiome - Masterclass Series- E.1 ft. Dr Barbara Paldus, Ph.D of CODEX Labs

Transcript

E.507: Decoding The Microbiome - Masterclass Series- E.1 ft. Dr Barbara Paldus, Ph.D of CODEX Labs · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, welcome back to Scaraki.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Before we get started, I wanted to just take a minute and announce that we are going to be doing a full-fledged masterclass series with Codex Labs.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: I am so excited to bring you this masterclass series with various members on the team at Codex and just learn all about what they're doing, all of the innovations that are in the works over there, and all the science that's coming out.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're really, really heavy when it comes to doing clinical trials.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: They're very active in their research and their data collection, proving their results.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just so excited to bring this class to you guys.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think you're gonna learn a lot.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna learn a lot, I know for sure, and I just cannot wait.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So tune in, buckle in, and let's go for a ride.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is our first episode in the uh Masterclass series, and the first one we're launching it off with Barbara Paldas, Dr.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Barb Barbara Paldus herself, and she is the founder of Codex Labs and um, you know, is at the helm of the all the initiatives of the company.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: So she is starting the class off, and this episode specifically is a really nice overview of what um you know the brand is doing when it comes to their efforts towards you know, you basically optimizing microbiome skincare.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: So tune in and let me know what you guys think, and also stay tuned for many more episodes to come.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, welcome back to your favorite podcast, Future Anarchy.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: I am so excited because this is the launch of a brand new masterclass series, and it is with one of my all-time favorite, if not my top like two brands I love.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: So um, without further ado, I want to introduce you guys um again to Barbara Paldas, who was on our show before for Codex uh Beauty, but now they're known as Codex Labs, and we are doing a full masterclass trying to understand Codex Labs and what they're working on.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so, welcome back, Barbara.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so honored and thrilled to have you back.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Actus.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: So thrilled to be back as well and talk about science.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's that's the that's the goal here.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I really, really love what Codex is doing, and I I love the new, you know, the direction um that you guys are going in.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know there's a lot of good things in the work, so I want to dive into all of that, but you know, let's let's start um by really talking about this whole skin gut microbiome like access, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's like the focus here.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think for this episode, it's for everyone listening, that's going to be an introductory episode because we're gonna be focusing a lot on this topic, you know, the skin and gut access or the skin microbiome or the gut microbiome, that kind of thing.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: So just to preface everything, I want to let everybody know that's the goal.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, Barb, if we could get started, I want to ask you, um, you know, there are a lot of derms out there that talk about this kind of testing, right, for the skin microbiome.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it can be really tricky.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, I just want to talk about the research on this.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how do you apply the research?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, like what is the makeup of the microbiome?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: How is it connected to skin conditions?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, what is it really telling us when we're doing these tests?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's really the question.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's an excellent question, Ecta, because I would say that we're still groping around.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's probably not what a lot of our um listeners want to hear.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: But for example, the connection between the gut and skin microbiome, that's incredibly poorly understood.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're actually looking at, you know, the connection of metabolites, for example, short chain fatty acids that are produced in the gut by the gut microbiome.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: But we can't even, while we may be able to tell you what family of bacteria, um, we certainly can't go down to the species levels yet.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we certainly can't tell you ironically, this is a healthy microbiome because we don't know.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really nascent research.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that the gut is ahead of the skin microbiome.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we know that both are important.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So at Codex Labs, we really look at it right now from the perspective of pathogenic species.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, making sure there isn't anything, you know, colonizing your skin, you know, not having, for example, too much S.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: But uh definitely, you know, um, I wish we could know more.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would say, you know, commercially, um, while gut microbiome testing started several years ago, um, people are still questioning its efficacy, both at the clinical as well as the commercial level.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, skin microbiome is even more recent.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so as I would say, I would probably limit it to the detection of pathogens at this point.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's a that's actually a really good point.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I I always wondered that as well is that, you know, which actual strains of bacteria are we really dealing with here with certain skin conditions?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm glad that you said that, you know, with the detection of the certain pathogens, because I think that's, you know, this whole field is such an interesting one.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, for us as scientists, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, we can geek out about this all day, but for the consumers, um, it's so easy for them to fall into this trap of just, you know, you they hear buzzwords and they don't really understand that there's different species involved with different types of conditions, you know.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really important.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: I I like that you mentioned that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, now I want to know, do you think that the skin microbiome tests, like, should they be best uh distributed under the guidance of like medical professionals?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, what's your opinion around that?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: So again, um maybe this is a little bit of a controversial opinion because there's a lot of marketing going around um about how great skin microbiome tests are, but honestly, they report a key dozen, you know, dozen keystone species.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then a lot of the conclusions today are you have dry skin, normal skin, or oily skin.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not sure that that's particularly useful or that the consumer can't determine with a piece of rice paper, you know, like those rice paper blotters.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then basically they go back to metadata, um, metadata like age, diet, environment, what medications are you on, like antibiotics.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then they have algorithms that essentially make product and dietary recommendations, which again, I find a little specious because given that we don't really even understand the science of the microbiome.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, great, you know, I can someone will know if their skin is dry, normal, or oily and needs a moisturizer.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, that's kind of a little bit like a marketing gimmick.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and given that, as we talked earlier, the correlations between the gut and skin microbiomes are as of yet, I would say, largely unknown.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would say the dietary recommendations are not fully evidence-based either.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, that's again somewhat specious and disturbing.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and topicals, you know, those recommendations are inference-based because the other issue here is that most products don't have publicly available clinical data or clinical efficacy testing.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: So then the algorithm is relying on claims made by the company or ingredients rather than factual quantitative testing on human skin, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you're compounding the problem of an algorithm making metadata recommendations based on a limited set of keystone species on products where the claims are not supported by, you know, an efficacy panel.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so given, but I would say, you know, given that most of these products um have not been, you know, the effect of the microbiome out of a lot of these products are not certified, for example, by my my microbiome, then they're not fully scientifically validated.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: So again, you're adding another unknown of how do these, you know, products actually work on your microbiome.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and now I would say studies are starting to be published on the effects of preservatives.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: So there were some papers coming out of Austria and out of Korea.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, again, they're basically saying, okay, you know, certain amounts of phenoxyethanol or parabons do kill the microbiome, but then the microbiome recovers.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't really have long-term studies here.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So again, there's no quantification.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I would say, kind of irrespective of the effects on the microbiome, which tends to be very robust and tends to be pretty good at recovering.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would say we really don't know what the long-term effect on skin health looks like.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so just the basic guidelines of, you know, have a product that's balanced in pH, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Again, common sense, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of four to six pH.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: Don't use super harsh cleansers that are like pH 10 or 11.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, those will strip things.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Don't use too much alcohol on your skin because that'll dehydrate you.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, again, common sense of keep yourself hydrated, moisturized.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then all the things that the skincare companies, you know, don't really talk about, which is drink your water or your coffee, you know, get your fluids, get your sleep, don't stress too much.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, stress does have an effect on the skin microbiome.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're starting to see research in that area, you know, kind of what um how it hormonally changes you, and that can change, you know, your gut or your skin microbiome.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say just limiting it to detecting pathogens right now, or severe like imbalances in your microbiome, um, which may be something insiduous.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: You may have red spots, you might be itchy.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this can actually give the dermatologist, and in this case, the doctor is involved, you know, and I think actually this goes to your question.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think interpretation by a medical professional is needed with these tests at this point.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um they're going to be way more trained, way more conversant, you know, in these pathogenic or colonizing species.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, like if you have Candida or Staphoraeus, um, especially if you have, for example, eczema, um, because people with eczema tend to get bacterial or fungal infections.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, there it's very useful to know um for diagnosis and for treatment, um, or some form of lesion, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what is in that lesion?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: What is causing that lesion?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, do you have MRSA, for example?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think from that perspective, from a medical perspective, then they can prescribe the right topical medication.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Again, we're not talking skincare, we're talking a prescription topical drug.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: And most of the people, and most of the people, Barb, that you're also mentioning, you know, it's important for consumers to understand, like if you're immunocompromised in any way, like, you know, a lot of those species that were mentioned here, I mean, a lot of times immunocompromised patients that I see, you know, they are the ones that have like Canada, you know, or uh MRSA or, you know, any of these because they're immunocompromised.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, their body's not functioning as it should be.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that's when, yeah, the medical, the clinical side really kicks in where you need that topical prescription strength medication to take care of that.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I hear you.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where you need that lab clinical, you know, test to actually show you which pathogen you're dealing with because you're going to prescribe something completely different for MRSA than you are for Candida, right?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, absolutely.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, absolutely.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Canada is a fungus, you know, and you know, MRSA is a bacteria.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's a huge, I mean, these are exactly yeah, fundamental.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: And this is what this is why I think consumers have to, they have to get behind these kind of you know, initiatives, like, you know, something like this, because you have to start, we have to start questioning things more, I think, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's just a bottom line.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I agree, and honestly, we need the experts involved.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, this is one thing that, you know, I think where social media has done everybody a disservice because all of a sudden everybody's an expert, and we've lost that refereed journal publication where there are actual experts in the field who read the work and who can comment on the work, or you know, professional conferences where that happens.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, and and the consumer, I think, needs to go back to trusting the expert as opposed to the person with a million followers.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a big kind of change we need to do, especially in these medical conditions.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, honestly, like if you're immunocompromised or you have a skin condition like eczema or psoriasis, I mean, you know, you can't just listen to an influencer.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: You you need to get yourself to a medical professional.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, 100%.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what's crazy, Barb?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a little side note, but just to add to what you said, like I have heard so many people say such and such line helped a lot with my eczema.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I sit there and I wonder to myself, that's great, that's a wonderful thing.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: So you just added more hydration, that's good, you know, because that's really essentially essentially that's what you're doing, right?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Unless you have a prescription strength for something, but still, you still need to go to a dermatologist.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know what I mean?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: You need to go to somebody who can analyze your skin, like really analyze, like where is the eczema coming from?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times bacteria and certain microbes can cause eczema.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: They can cause so that's where you know what I mean.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: This kind of testing is like it's crucial at this point.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: At this point, it's I feel like it should be a no-brainer, you know, even for dermatologists in their offices and clinics, like, you know, if there's any derms listening, like you guys need to get behind this because again, uh, Barb, everything you said was peer review.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, all I kept hearing was peer review, peer review, and that's absolutely a hundred percent true.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: In science, we need a peer review process, and we need a process where someone's gonna fact check you.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's crazy because I I had this, I few dermatologists, I'm not gonna name any names.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: We had a really great debate before, and I was like almost like you know, I was very frustrated because it's like, you know, they kept saying clinic this, clinic that, and I'm sitting here, I'm like, what about the research?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like what about the research?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Where's the clinical exactly?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the point is if you have something truly breakthrough, do the damn clinical study and publish it for your peers.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then if your peers say it truly is the greatest thing since sliced bread, then you truly know you have something great.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is something that's a me too.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, I 100% agree with you.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: I love, I love that you, you know, really, you know, brought this up because this is such an important topic.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I want to ask, you know, I know you had addressed this a little bit previously, but um, for the skin microbiome tests, you know, do you think they are best um, you know, suited for certain people, or you know, like are is who should be getting them is my question.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, who should be opting for these kind of tests?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I think primarily people with skin conditions.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I know we don't use the word skin diseases anymore, but let's call it skin conditions for the sake of argument.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: And those basically, um, while they're still under study, there are, you know, certain general conclusions that the medical and scientific communities can already make.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, you know, Staphylococcus arrayus colonization, you know, in eczomatic patches, you know, that causes flare-ups.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's well known, it's in the literature.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's, I think, value by doing a test and swabbing that area to conclusively prove that that's the bacteria causing this in the patient.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, conversely, in acne, there's still a lot of studies underway.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: And people actually, this will bring us to another topic, that they're, you know, it's all C acne, but they're different strains.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: So the issue will be that the current skin microbiome tests only go to the species level.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: We need to actually be looking at the strain level because from my reading, there are apparently five different strains of acne, and some of them are actually pro-inflammatory, and the rest of them are anti-inflammatory.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to know which exact strain of C acne you have because you may have an imbalance in the strains, but the gross test, right, will just say, oh, you have acne's.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's not the whole picture.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's, I would say there's increasing and ample evidence in the literature now that many processes, for example, like the transfer of antibiotic resistance, since we were talking about MRSA, they occur at the strain level, not the species level.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's interactions between these different strains amongst themselves and the host, i.e.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: you.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so by swabbing the skin, the other problem is, for example, with acne, you're not going to get the microbiota in the actual follicles.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're probably going to miss issues.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there's still a long way to go.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, I think we really need to look at it and go to whole genome sequencing.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the costs are coming down, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Just like with um DNA sequencing, the costs have come down tremendously, but you need the strain level for the real information.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then you may need to apply other modalities to get more insight into the interaction of the skin and the individual because the host microbiome interaction also comes into play.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we can't ignore it.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, phages, right?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: And other aspects of the microbiome, I think still need to be understood for more complete picture.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so the and also the collection methods, you know, need to be validated.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I know we do a lot with swabs right now or core samples for the gut microbiome, but you know, if you look at um the whole length of your intestines, from the large to the small intestine, uh, your microbiome changes.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: It depends whether your core, you know, central to the intestine or on the side of the intestine, you know, in the mucosal part of the intestine.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: So your microbiome can vary significantly.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so single sample points, I think, lead to the wrong conclusion.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of the other thing I wanted to mention.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so you need to sample over time, especially if the individual is being treated.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you need to understand how the treatment is affecting the microbiome.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, bottom line, you know, we need a lot more science.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we need to really understand uh better how microbiome is connected to various disease states.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we barely understand how genetics is related to disease states, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: We have all these genome-wide association studies, and you know, then we have to take into account various racial profiles, we need to take into account lifestyle, we need to take into account the um, you know, environmental effects.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, how much of it is genetics, how much of it is lifetime, how much of it is microbiome, um, how much is the host microbiome interaction?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think really any type of test scan should offer a lot more than what I would call the pedestrian exercise of telling people that their skin is dry, oily, or normal.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I completely, completely resonate with everything you said.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that, you know, um, one of the biggest questions I do have, um, you know, you had mentioned a great example as well with the uh the genomic testing, you know, the the entire sequencing your genome.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and one of the big questions that comes up is, you know, what do we need these um skin microbiome tests um to offer in order to be actually serviceable or beneficial for consumers?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like what are some like you know, nitty-gritty like details they should have thought out of it?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Strain level.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So for the skin, it should be strain level pathogens.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:18
  unknown: Okay.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And keystone species.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like you also want to make sure you haven't screwed up the balance between your keystone species.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's the start before we start understanding everything else, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: We don't understand the microbiome, we don't understand, which is a fungal, you know, the whole fungal aspect of everything because it's not studied very well um yet.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we don't understand phages, the role of phages, um, the interactions of phages and microbiota.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I would say right now, what we can say is we know that there's specific strains that are bad.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: We can have those.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: We need to basically obviously make sure that we have the right sampling, right?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you're trying to get into the hair follicle, you need to basically figure out a way to extract, you know, um from that hair follicle itself.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's much harder than just running a swab over your face.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say right now, just pathogens and keystone species for the skin.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in the case of the gut microbiome, I think we actually can glean a lot more in the sense that we can start understanding metabolites, we can start understanding vitamins.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: That ties back to then perhaps having blood work, you know, blood uh spot tests in accordance with that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think, you know, we also take a look at the genetics.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think to be honest, we need to start looking at a much broader profile than just a skin microbiome test because you need to understand the person's hormones and not just a single point test either for the hormones.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: For example, with cortisol, you need to do the entire diurnal cycle.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: So at least four samples, ideally eight, but at least four, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: You need to understand their genetic predisposition.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Gut microbiome, skin microbiome.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say species and strains, keystones, pathogens, and then understand metabolites.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: How are they doing on short chain fatty acids?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can tie back the blood work to the species in the microbiome to start trying at least at the family level, which is kind of like that upper, you know, big category level, um, understanding um how those tie together.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so, you know, I think you need to construct a much, much uh more holistic and complete picture um before you can kind of really start making conclusions and helping people.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, and and the other thing is you also need to understand their mental state.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because a lot of, you know, I would call it an altered psychological state or call it, you know, depression that we all have.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're not allowed to use certain words anymore.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: So when I get depressed, I eat junk, right?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: So basically your poor diet, you get low pre probiotic consumption.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: That then, if you do it for more than a week, will alter your gut microbiome.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: That alters The way you ferment proteins and carbs in your gut.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: So your proteolytic and sacrolytic fermentation changes.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: That then changes the short chain fatty acid production in your gut.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: That changes your microbiome distribution.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: That can lead to inflammation.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: How does inflammation then affect your skin microbiome?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: How does that inflammation, like you basically break out, that makes you more depressed?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, how do we break these cycles?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we can't look at them as just one test here, one test there.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: We need to look at, I mean, honestly, we need to look at the whole skin gut brain axis.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if we don't, we can't, and it's so individualized, every person is unique that I think we also need to kind of account for that, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, 100%.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you said that.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think you're one of like the very few people I've met in life in general, even outside the podcast that really do know that we have got to start studying this.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like the skin, gut, and brain access.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's so many people out there that are suffering from things like depression, or you know, um, even some sometimes, like, you know, they'll come into ERs with psychotic symptoms, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then you'll figure out that, oh, wait a minute, you have uh C diff growing in you, and that's causing psychosis.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know that's an extreme example, but like exactly, yeah, it's true.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like this happens more often than we realize.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like the fact that we're not getting there as like an industry of like the cosmetic industry isn't getting there, it bothers me, you know what I mean?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's like this is really, really hurtful to people's health.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that's even more so, you know, reason to really kind of get tested, you know, figure out what you're doing.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: This kind of transcends the cosmetic industry because this is really, when you think of it, it's the realm of wellness, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look at your skin as the reflection of your health, right?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically your largest organ and it reflects basically how well you are.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, red bumps, lesions, itchiness, um, red spots, you know, all that stuff.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's usually a symptom of some other consequence.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we start seeing the skin that way, it's part of an integral complex system and it's an indicator.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's basically like you're, oh crap, you better start figuring out, you know, other parts of your health too.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: I completely agree.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a really great point that you made about the wellness, um, you know, overall wellness aspect.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: It goes way beyond cosmeceuticals and you know, it is it is all about overall wellness.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so many different, you know, sub-industries within that realm that really need to, you know, also get on board.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I completely agree.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, one thing, you know, Barbara, I want to I want to shift focus here because I know that Codex Labs has a beautiful, you know, set of supplements that you guys um, you know, have created under the shant uh line, which I love that line for everyone listening.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: When I first tried it, like literally within the first day, like my red, I had redness on my face.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: And like I used the mask under the that line, the shant line.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, it's the lavender colored line for everyone listening, in case you're looking on the on the website and you can't uh figure it out, but it's a phenomenal range.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I there's two supplements in there, and I want to ask you, um, what why did you choose to launch a supplement?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, really, what was the story behind that?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a great segue from our whole discussion about skin get brain.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what we basically found when we did our clinical study on the Shant collection, and we're going to be um launching OTC products shortly that go along with the cosmetic piece of it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is that yes, you know, you get a certain improvement comparable to benzoyl peroxide.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you can reduce, you know, acne pimples by say 25 to 30 percent, you can reduce backne by 40 to 50 percent, but you don't get all the way there.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that goes back to the skin gut brain axis.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh we started looking to um find out, especially for women's hormonal acne, you know, what actually can we do to help uh modulate the hormones, modulate stress, modulate, you know, and we started finding when we when we looked at the hormonal profiles of uh the um the patients that we were studying, you know, we found, for example, lesions correlated to cortisol slopes.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so this was fascinating because um, you know, because we do believe in skin gut brain interconnectivity, and then we started digging into the literature, a lot of this wasn't there.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we're still, you know, doing more research on it.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: But there's definitely a relationship between genetics, gut microbiome, metabolic health, hormones with all of these skin conditions.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, while the results were incredibly promising, and as I said, they're comparable to benzoyl peroxide, which was great given that you can do that with a botanical, we really wanted to get better than 25%, right?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted to enhance the effect of the topicals.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that ended up as a combination.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: So there's two.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's why there's two.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's a probiotic, um, which really addresses the gut, and then the de-stress supplement, which addresses hormones and inflammation.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, and again, it goes back to you can't, you know, forget the hormones, you can't forget the gut microbiome.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean, that's I love that.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that there is this uh two-pronged approach that you've taken here because um you're right, you know, I I think the stress level, especially like with hormones, like, you know, when you're any kind of stress is induced and your hormones go haywire for lack of better terms.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think uh with women, especially, you know, especially around, like you said, like our menstruation or whatever it might be, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, your kids are going crazy, you're getting stressed out, you know, whatever it might be, your hormones are gonna reflect that.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's really important to balance.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that you actually launched that because we need we need that, you know, we need good, trustable supplements.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's the big for me, that's the key word is trustworthy because there's a lot of people out here saying, Oh, we've got this and we've got this, but it's like, why?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, why do you have that?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Why did you create a supplement line, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's like if you don't have anything behind you, if you don't have the data behind you, you shouldn't do that anyway.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I I'm really glad that you guys did.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm really, really glad that you are starting with this two-pronged approach.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then I hope to see the line grow, actually.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: That would be really cool to see, you know, what comes next with that.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: But now I could you tell us a little bit about um, you know, like what was the whole process like for development, like in terms of like developing these two these two?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it took a while.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, to design the formulation, um, we really leaned on Dr.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Raja Sivamani, who's both an Auretic um certified practitioner, but also obviously a board-certified dermatologist and who's a specialist in acne.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And he was collaborating with Dr.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Jessica Malo, who's a naturopathic doctor.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so the first thing we did was uh Dr.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Malo did a comprehensive literature search um about all potential active ingredients and probiotic strains, as well as um dug back into the research over the last you know decade or so that was done in Dr.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Savimani's Clinical Research Center.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so um she assessed contributors and aggravators for things like acne inflammation, hormonal imbalance, mental stress, and obviously the gut microbiome.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so, based on the literature, then she calculated um the doses at a clinically active level for each of the active ingredient and then how to combine them together.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, while we have launched the supplement because it's supported by a lot of their research, um, we're still going to be doing this year a comprehensive IRB-approved clinical trial because I want to now see the effect of the performance of these oral supplements on their own.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then I want to see them in combination with the Sean Topicals because I kind of have this crazy dream ECTA of being able to match Accutane at some point and getting people off of Accutane.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my long-term goal is to figure out, you know, this may not get us all the way there, but even Accutane has only 80% reduction, right?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's never a hundred percent.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: So if we could get to that 75-80% with the combination of the ingestibles and the topicals, then it gives an alternative to people who don't want to go on Accutane.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know what's crazy, Barbara?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: I was talking to Jan Marini and she told me she was a two-time Accutane failure.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Can you believe that?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's is like, isn't that nuts?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and I keep thinking, I'm like, what did that do to your body?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what does that do to your body when you take access to it?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know what's fascinating?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're now starting to have because the but because the shant wine is so gentle and it's hydrating, it's not like benzoyl peroxide.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're now seeing dermatologists use it in conjunction with Accutane because it's well tolerated and it actually helps mitigate some of the side effects of Accutane.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: But that being said, what we're seeing is that Accutane cures the acne, and then the people get eczema.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: So they get eczema on their hands, they get eczema on their arms, I mean, on their on basically their legs.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like, how does that work?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you go from one problem to another problem.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And these aren't like mild cases of eczema, these are like the peeling, red, bleeding kinds of eczema.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, yeah, I I'm scary.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's so scary.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what's you know what?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: I even I think like even if you weren't a scientist and you knew like even if you're just just as a general consumer, like I really urge you guys, you know, if you're out there and especially the younger generation, I remember being younger in high school and there were like friends of mine that were on Accutane, and I refused to go on Accutane.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, uh-uh, you scared me.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: My term scared the hell out of me.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when she told me about Accutane and like all the little, you know, the monthly testing and all that.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember at the time there was a friend of mine, he was on Accutane, and it was like looking at his skin, I was like, is it really getting better?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because you look really hurt to me.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, like you look, I shouldn't be laughing, but it looked like his skin was being just, I don't know, damaged or stripped or yeah, it like literally peels off your skin.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then what's also you know frightening to me is the amount of psychological effects that Accutane has and the increase in suicide rates and just the mental health degradation that it causes.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to me, especially, you know, if you're a teenager, young adult, you have so many stressors in your life already that you know, you don't want to put that person over the edge and lose them.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, exactly.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: And also it's like, I mean, acne is like you said, it's a very, very complex, you know, situation.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very complex disease, you know, it again, you know, mind, gut, skin, axis all the way, you know, and I think with pharmaceuticals, especially nowadays, you know, I I find that to be the case.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm really, really glad that the shant line is being used in conjunction because we need more of it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like I said, you know, um before, I use the mask one night and my skin changed.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it it got back to the water.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what's funny, Ecta?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So because we use patchouli, and this is actually in the paper that um Dr.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Raja and Dr.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Melo just published, where they published it in Journal of Clinical Medicine.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we use patchouli as the scent, and I know that a lot of Americans will look at this and go, ooh, that's kind of earthy, or ooh, that's kind of like, you know, it's patchouli.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But patchouli is well known in Ayurveda for treating anxiety and depression as well.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so there is an aromatherapeutic component to the Shant collection on purpose.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's done with forethought and malice.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we actually saw we did a um clinically, you know, regulated questionnaire um of the people's mental health.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what we found was there was definitely a shift, which was absolutely fascinating to me.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that shift was essentially um from um, you know, feeling lack of confidence to kind of you know scared and irritable, nervous and jittery.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: That went down significantly and people felt strong, inspired, proud, active.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we over the eight-week period that we did the clinical study, we definitely saw a statistically meaningful shift from irritable to like inspired and feeling strong and confident.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, that tells me that you know, we cannot ignore the skin-brain connection.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And while, you know, yes, it might smell earthy, there is definitely a you know, psychodermatological effect of doing this, especially for skin conditions.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: That that's so fascinating.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: I had no idea that's that there was a connection there.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I also like to be honest, it makes sense if I'm if I'm being very real as a consumer.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like it that makes sense because you know, if you're out in nature and you're smelling the nor normal smells of nature, which is earthy, you know, soil, trees, you feel better.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: You feel better.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like so that I love that.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the Japanese have actually done studies on like a couple thousand people where they force them to go just for a 15-minute walk um out in nature every day, and the mental state of these people, their mental health became so much stronger.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just and these are the little things that these are the little changes we can do for ourselves that cost nothing, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100%.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with you.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there's a huge benefit there, and I think that the closer we get to nature in any way possible is better.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm a strong believer in that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that, you know, the Shant collection for me, when I first um tried it, you know, every product resonated with me.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't just say that lightly, you know, I get a lot of PR, I get a lot of brands that approach me and I try everything.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I really do.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember um when you know your team had sent it to me, I immediately tried it and I was just like, this is amazing.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like they're really onto something here.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you're you know, people talk all day about, oh, I need immediate results or I need this or I want my skin to change overnight.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about that, it's about how do you feel and how does it make you feel overall?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you want to see the results, which I did.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: I saw physical, actual results, clinical results, which I would call clinical results.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: But in in addition to that, I felt more calm in general because my skin felt better, you know, like that.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: It that's the whole point is like when your skin looks better and it feel it looks better in the mirror, you're gonna feel better.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so you have to invest in in things that are gonna do that for you.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I'm a huge but you also need the patience, like you said.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, for anyone over 35, your skin turnover period is three to four weeks, right?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: If you're older, like if you're like me in your 50s, it's six to eight weeks.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like, and if you see an instant result, well, okay, great.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can I can spray hyaluronic acid on my face and feel plump, that's great.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, four hours later, it's gone.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: No, I agree, I completely agree.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: And now going back to the supplements, though, I really want to dive a little bit deeper into that because I think it's important for the consumers to understand like what should they be expecting to see after taking the supplements, you know, and you know, if you could give us a little bit of an idea of like timeline or just results in general.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: So honestly, um, you're not going to see results for at least about two to three weeks.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, to change over and supplement your gut microbiome typically takes about a month.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so really we have um, you know, our probiotic blend, uh their key, uh three kinds of um key um, so bacterium, bifidobacterium lactus.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's actually from we have that as babies, um, but then we tend to lose that as we grow into adults.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's a specific strain of lactobacillus acidophilus, which is important, and then bacillus coagulants, which um people are starting to kind of really see makes a difference in terms of um inflammatory lesions.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, then we also have some antioxidants in there.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: So essentially Google is an adaptogenic um uh ayurvetic herb that supports metabolism, but that also, you know, with the Google sterone is also a great antioxidant, and obviously green tea leaf extract, again at a clinical level of 360 milligrams of ECGC, that's a great anti-inflammatory and antioxidant.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: So here we're trying to reduce gut inflammation because this is what you're eating.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we're trying to essentially support the metabolism and bring back certain keystone species that are helpful.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's really for the gut side.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then the de stress supplement, which is a powder, it tastes like orange iced tea.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it should be, you know, even my son will deign to, you know, drink it.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Love that.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um but that basically contains kind of holybasil or tulsi, right?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: In Ayurveda, that's kind of your big adaptogenic anti-inflammatory herb.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: So um that's Tulsi is amazing.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my God.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that's used, you know, to mitigate the effects of stress.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that to us is kind of one of these key ingredients.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then um we basically have uh turmeric in there.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: But again, we look at the curcaminoids.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: So again, we guarantee there's at least 50 milligrams of curcaminoids because again, we want to guarantee that anti-inflammatory effect from the literature studies.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then for milk thistle, um, again, we are looking at silimerin.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so we want to make sure there's at least 140 milligrams of silomerin in there because that again supports um liver and liver detox.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: So we again want to start kind of reducing the overall chronic inflammation in the body.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you can think of it as the powder is more of um detoxing in your blood as well as your gut, obviously.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the probiotic is more detoxing your gut more directly.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then it also contains um basically, I would say, you know, um chemical ingredients that are like L-thenine.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that's an amino acid.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we get ours from tea leaves, but that again is known in Ayurveda.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really, you can think of it as a pharmaceutical equivalent of the Ayurvedic tea leaves, because that's really known to help improve stress and calm the mind.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: And again, the L-thinine is there at 200 milligrams, again, um, where there is literature support that there is indeed an effect.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then MSM, um, very, very important, you know, methylcephalomethane.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's a whole gram of that in there per dose.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, again, a great anti-inflammatory.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then for the hormonal balance, there's myonocetole and folic acid, um, as well as um pantothenic acid, which we know is important at least at a 50 milligram level clinically for lesion reduction.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you might be going, Barb, that's a thousand times, you know, the normal daily dose.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like, yes, this is a clinical dose.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Same with the folate.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's 170% of your daily value.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's 400, you know, MCGs of the acid, but the point is it's safe.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's been clinically shown to be needed um to reduce hormonal acne.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so um the myonocy is there at two grams for the very same reason.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really to support you hormonally.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's packed.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's packed and it's at the clinical level.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, again, it'll take about a month because when you're going through the body, when you're going through the gut, it takes you a while to kind of start seeing the results of that, which is you know, it's expected with any product, like you said, you know, you got to be a little patient with things, you know.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm glad that you got you have all the good stuff in there, you know.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: So when it does take effect, it's gonna take effect.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's the point, you know.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like everyone out there listening, like when your products are working, they're working.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just give them a minute, though.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can't do it.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like you're gonna drink a glass and like an hour later all your acne's gone.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: I wish, I wish the mowing and that would be amazing.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you know what I wouldn't doubt it if you created something like that, Barbara.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say that's a laser, but then you're gonna be healing because you've you know burned off your entire skin barrier.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: So then you'll be like, but I can't go out anyway because I look, you know, like I've been through the fire, and it's kind of like, well, there's nothing for free.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: I love that so much.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: No, I I mean I think that's amazing, and all the ingredients are just they just sound so lovely.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually recognize most of them.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: And one thing I wanted to say, I know we had uh talked about Tulsi a minute ago, but just for everyone listening, I wanted to mention Tulsi is actually known in Ayurveda as the like the mother of um natural medicine.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's like this herb, it comes from the basil family, and it is like absolutely phenomenal how it works.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've I've done like my own little bit of research on it, uh, Barb, and I I found Tulsi to be like just so fascinating to me because you know, indoors, like my mother grows it indoors because it literally it detoxes indoor air, like by its it's like an air natural, yeah.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even know that.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, how the heck do you know that, Mom?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, oh no, I know because you know, because she's she grew up in India, and so you know word of mouth, but like, yeah, she was telling she's like apparently Tulsi is so good for antioxidant potential or just anti-toxic uh potential that like even environmental stressors, it'll help you get rid of those, like naturally.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, that's an amazing herb to have in like any product, I feel like.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I love that you incorporated that.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, absolutely love it.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: Now, one thing I will round out this interview with asking you this question because I know that I'd mentioned it before, and I really want you to speak on it because you're one of the few people I think that could actually, you know, say this because there's a lot of you know claims out there, right?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: From so many different people, so many brands.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: And again, no shade.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: I respect anyone who has a good entrepreneur spirit, but facts are facts at the end of the day.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so I want to ask you this, um, Barbara, and that is really about the you know, gaining credibility within the supplement sector of wellness.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: How does that work?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: And how has that been for you so far?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no shortcut.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, there is no shortcut, and that's why we're starting another.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: IRB trial to basically isolate both the supplement and then look at the supplement and the topical together.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: And there's just no shortcut around it.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping that we'll be able to present our findings at the integrative dermatology symposium at the end of the year in 2023.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: But put it this way, with the dermatology community, there is no shortcut.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: You have to have, you know, peer-reviewed work, you have to publish it.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're not going to take things at face value.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: They're not going to take claims at face value.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, clinical validation is going to be absolutely critical.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so everything we've been doing in skincare, I think carries over to the supplement world because again, just, you know, yes, we can reference all these papers, but until we have that actual data, um, you know, I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not going to be here saying, you know, oh, it reduces pimples by this and this much, because at this point we're running the study.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't know yet.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we will be able to tell you that just like, you know, we're working on an anti-inflammatory supplement, and I want to measure the inflammation in the bloodstream directly so that we know, right?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the only way you can know because how do you know, you know, what the delivery is?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: How do you know what the absorption through the gut is?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do you know how much is actually metabolized and how much makes it into your bloodstream?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and unless it this goes back to kind of also like consumer studies versus clinical studies.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, to me, consumer studies are not real scientific evidence.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: So when I see brands doing this thing, like in a consumer study, 93% of the study group thought or felt that their skin felt hydrated.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's there's no replacement for directly measuring the skin hydration or the skin barrier evaporation with scientifically validated tools.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm sorry, there's just to me, it's you know, you can you can storytell and you know that's marketing, or you can actually measure it and then that's clinical evidence.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so to me, there's kind of that one is black and one is white.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I won't say which is black and which is white, because you know that depends on your interpretation, but that you know, I don't want to live in the gray zone.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know, you know, because unless you measure it, you don't know.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: And my point to all these companies, well, if you don't know, how much do you really care about your consumer versus making this?
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for saying that.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, 100%.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my God, I love that you said that.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I'm a I'm behind you a thousand percent with that statement.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: That is so true.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: Why do you and you know what?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's really about how not even how much do you care about your consumer?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like genuinely, because at the end of the day, if you're out there just marketing things just to have you know a quick buck made, right?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Overnight or over a few months or whatever, like what are you really doing to this industry?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: You're diluting it and you're diluting it for the people who are doing it right, and that's a really big statement.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm saying that, you know what I mean?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Especially acting people who have skin conditions, right?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's one thing to put out a moisturizer and or or a lipstick, you know, those are those are fleeting, colors change, you know, trends change.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough, right?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, those are more like an artistic palette where you're buying your paints, right?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: But for skin conditions, OTC products, supplements for people with actual conditions like acne, eczema psoriasis, to me, honestly, to just put stuff out there and not have all the fundamental clinical data and not have it tested is simply unconscionable.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not ethical, in my opinion.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's not ethical.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's not moral, it's not ethical, it's not in the spirit of science, it's not in the spirit of wellness, it is not in the spirit of anything good.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like I am a huge believer in facts or facts.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very much on the same boat as you, Barb, in the sense of like black and black and white, in the sense of no gray areas, because science doesn't work in gray areas.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: We get we gain inspiration in gray areas, but then we create black and white areas to put boxes around things.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: And rightfully so, because if something is constantly in a gray area, you're never gonna figure out if it works or not.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: You're never gonna know how to apply it to real life.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that's another thing with these companies is I mean, you yeah, okay, you create a cool product, it's got cool pink packaging.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Where do where do I use this?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: Where is it applicable?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, where is the actual use of this product?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, I a hundred percent am behind you and I love everything you guys do.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, I'm number one fan of Codex Labs.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: You guys are great, and I I love what you're doing, and I love the direction you're going in.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: This has been so wonderful.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for coming back onto the show and and really, you know, launching this wonderful masterclass that I'm so excited about.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is going to be so great.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Ecca.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: And sorry to everyone out there.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we say I don't know a lot.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you just have to start, you know, understanding that too, because as the science is evolving, we're definitely learning and it's definitely advancing.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: And with the new science tools, it's advancing faster than it did, say 50 years ago.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: But there's still a lot out there, especially about the human body, about the interconnectivity, you know, how this whole skin gut brain axis works that we don't know.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think everyone needs to be a little bit more comfortable with the fact that yes, we're doing all the studies, but we may not be able to answer all the questions.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: But the point is at least we're trying to measure it and at least we are trying to understand it.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think within the next five to 10 years, there will be a lot of breakthroughs and there will be a lot of, you know, revolutionary discoveries made.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's the exciting part, Ecta.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we also need to just level with ourselves, especially with some of these tests, and just say, look, you know, this is what I'm gonna get out of it.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a limited amount of information, like my pathogens and my keystone species, but I don't know the rest.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's okay.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to not know right now.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's a good thing that you're able to say, I don't know.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that's a really good thing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, I remember like in many, many episodes uh prior, like I had said, you know, we are trained as MDs.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: The first thing we're trained to say is, I don't know.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if I don't know, I don't know.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and so that's a really great thing that you know you brought up.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I am glad you said that.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: And for everyone listening, if a brand is able to say that openly, and especially the founder and you know, the CEO is able to say, Listen, we don't know yet, but we're gonna find out and we're gonna do our best to find out, that is more promising than a brand telling you, oh yeah, this works 100%, no problem.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because nothing is a hundred percent, you know what I mean?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like as consumers, like there's a lot of growing that needs to happen.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of education, there's a lot of self, you know, reflection that needs to take place on the consumer end as well, because the wellness industry is growing rapidly, you know, day by day, year by year.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, because of the way that it works and because of the regulations around it, there is no way to tell who's the real deal.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I really hope that, you know, you know, these kind of episodes, whether you hear it here or you hear it in a reputable publication somewhere else, they help you guys because you have to find, you have to weed out the BS and you have to get to the real deal.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I can assure you, like whatever Codex Labs puts out is the real deal.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: They've got the trials, they've got the data.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: If they don't have it, they're getting it, you know.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that trust that, you know, trust that process and put your money into that, you know, vote with your dollars, is my point.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I just want to say thank you so much, Barb.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: You're amazing.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: I love talking.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: Every time I get the opportunity to talk to you, I'm just so happy because you're you're so, so unique.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: You get it, you know, you really get it.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I I love seeing that.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you, Ecta.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's always a pleasure.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you ask amazing questions.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, everyone listening, make sure you check out all of the things I tagged for the concept art and all of the episodes coming up for this masterclass.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna be tagging products, we're gonna be tagging um, you know, obviously the the links to codex um labs, but you know, just there's gonna be a lot of information also in the tag.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: So just keep a lookout and also send us your questions, comments, concerns, whatever you have.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'll make sure that they get to Barb's team and we get you some answers.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much, and I will be back next time.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 52:04
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• 52:09
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• 52:11
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• 52:26
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• 52:47
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• 52:52
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• 52:57
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• 53:04
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• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.