Latest / Outside The Therapy Room / Episode 76 - Avengers Assemble... In Therapy? Part 1 with Destinee Hiscock

Transcript

Episode 76 - Avengers Assemble... In Therapy? Part 1 with Destinee Hiscock · Outside The Therapy Room

• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: As well as personal experiences and reflections.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: On the hope of normalizing humanism and helping you see that you're not alone.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is outside of the therapy room.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Outside of the Therapy Room.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I say this all the time, but I am so, so, so excited for this episode.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: We are joined by Destiny.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you who remember, Destiny used to work with us at New Moon Counseling, and she was my go-to person to nerd out about all things superheroes, Marvel, anything animated.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'm so excited to have you here.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Destiny.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to nerd out on all the Marvel things.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know, me too.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: For folks who I mean, you've been on the podcast a couple of times before.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: For but if we have any new listeners, can you give us a little intro about yourself?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yep, worked at New Moon Counseling.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think I went on maternity leave about a year and a half ago, maybe closer to two years now.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Was at New Moon for about three years, um, trying psychotherapy.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh now just stay-at-home parent who uh enjoys raising kiddo.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my son is now 16 months old.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm also currently pregnant again.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, um, about to be hitting the third trimester.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So for everyone, um, my noggin might be a little extra slow.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully I can remember all the things.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've been able to try to keep up with some of the marble stuff that's been coming out, but I definitely am really looking forward to the new Doomsday movie.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um my gosh.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So this is good to like, you know, get like more of that hype going.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited for that movie.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we had mentioned like maybe we'll do a little recap.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So people keep your eyes peeled for that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I have been like the biggest Marvel fan nerd since forever.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you who don't know me, like I'm obsessed with Spider-Man.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: He was like the big superhero from my childhood and like what connected me and my brothers together, watching Toby Maguire's Spider-Man movies, and then all of the Marvel, yeah, the OG, and then all of the Marvel kind of movies that kind of came out after that, with Iron Man being like the first big Marvel superhero that came.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and now, like as a mom, like it's just kind of been a an additional way that me and my boys have really connected and like things that we do together.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So me and my oldest, and now my son, my youngest, is starting to kind of come with us.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like we go and see all of the Marvel movies on opening day.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's just kind of what we do.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's become kind of like a fun little family tradition.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I got my Marvel shirt on and I'm ready to dive deep into this.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I feel like in the sense of like therapy and mental health, we see a lot of like our favorite characters or favorite superheroes really experiencing very human reactions, very human um things, right?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're dealing with anxiety, they're dealing with loneliness, they're dealing with grief and frustration and trauma and like all of these emotions, but they're not always discussed in a very like mental health kind of way in the movies.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I thought we could kind of like, you know, give our little therapeutic take on some of these favorite characters.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get started, who's your favorite Marvel character?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: A shared mind Spider-Man, but who's yours and has it changed at all throughout your life?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think for a long time, my favorite was Captain America.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just because all of his values and personality traits, I was like, yo, like that, I really resonate with that.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like the selflessness, the the caretaker, protector, leader.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I know in terms of like heroes, I really have enjoyed um well, maybe more villain, Loki has been a really cool because there's so much character development that happens there that almost like he's kind of like that anti-hero kind of character.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but no, Spider-Man has also been a huge favorite of mine.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was also similar to you, Yvonne.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like superheroes have been like a huge bonding with my my brothers and I.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so watching, like, yeah, OG Spider-Man with Toby McGuire growing up, um, he's always been good.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but even outside the Marvel universe, like I'm a huge Batman fan.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So now going to DC a little bit, but um, I think there's something about these characters that are just so enthralling.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just really neat to see them go and explore and have these hardships.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um, no, I think Captain America still is top tier for me and Spider-Man and also Doctor Strange.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's also just like a really interesting character.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you're right.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: He is.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes forget about him.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry, Doctor Strange fans.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: But like, yeah, sometimes it's uh I don't know.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's so much there.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was, I'm gonna say, for me, because of like who my kiddos gravitated towards, kind of ended up being my favorites, was like Spider-Man number one.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then it was like Iron Man and Hulk, because my kids just loved Iron Man and Hulk.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I do like Bruce Banner's like so sweet, and he's so kind and calm and so smart.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then just Hulk comes out, and I feel like that's such a perfect representation of like when we're just reacting all the time because can't always control when the green guy's gonna come out.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just so fun to kind of see it that way.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then Iron Man, I think it's because I'm I just remember the first movie.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And even though like he's a ladies' man, he's like all like he has his own stuff, his own issues.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it was just like um, I don't know, I just have good memories of watching that movie and like kind of who I went to go see that movie with, what kind of you know, how my kiddos adapted to like just really loving the character and everything.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's kind of what's like hooked me on to Iron Man a little bit.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And he's also had a little bit of like a an arc, also, and strong character development.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of villains, Loki is definitely my number one villain.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, he's been good.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I feel like you know, we can connect ourselves to these characters, and sometimes we can see ourselves in these people, like through how they're being represented um in movies.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think we're so connected, you know, outside of that?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do what do you think kind of connects us to these fictional characters?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think with a lot of them, like we can see like values and traits in ourselves.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for a lot of us, for myself, speaking of for myself, I like characters that I can resonate with or I can see parts of myself.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what's fascinating about like superheroes is that they're literally a superior version of because they have some sort of special gift.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so seeing them take qualities that I feel like I have are similar, they're similar, and then seeing someone with like this more um like this more powerful being be able to tap into that is like wow, like it just feels like really powerful to engage and to witness that.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um but also seeing the vulnerability that people who have you know uh lots of powers, like they're also like human to an extent where they struggle, they experience intense and low emotions that I think all of us can connect with.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just that that sense of familiarity and similarity.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also sometimes I think there's some characters that they represent parts that we wish that we had.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so like seeing them as a role model per se of like, oh, I I wish I was able to like you know pull together and bond more like a team, um, like with these characters.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I want to try and invite more of that for myself, like reach out to my friends and try and do more things to with them together.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think sometimes they can be reflections of ourself, but also versions we wish that we could become too.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love how you said that because I agree.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so when we watch any movie, especially like a superhero movie, there's a feeling of, oh, if they're going through it, then maybe it's okay or it makes more sense that I'm going through or like it's validating in some way.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we do see a lot of like, you know, we do see a lot of grief.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: We see a lot of like these things that the character is actually feeling while also having this like huge personality or like huge responsibility of having to protect the world from aliens coming in, like all of these things.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, yeah, I really, I really like how you worded that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: But okay, let's start going into our characters.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I will like disclaimer, we are gonna be talking about Avengers characters.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love X-Men and they all have their own mental health stuff too, that we could definitely do a deep dive on.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wolverine, I will say, is also like top favorite superhero.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're talking about like the Marvel cinematic universe, um, Avengers, that's what we're gonna be talking about today.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And also, um, like we're gonna be talking about the movies.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't seen any of these movies, then spoilers.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Spoilers, yeah, there may be spoilers for this, but let's start with the very first movie that came out in the Marvel universe, and that was Tony Stark's storyline.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like we could do a whole episode just on Tony Stark because that guy goes through so much.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of Endgame, like poor guy saves the whole world and then dies.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Again, spoil alert, people.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a lot in his character.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's sarcastic, he's confident, he's so smart.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it seems he seems like kind of a person that wants to um feel like everything's under control.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do really like his witty banter.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's always so fun.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think underneath all of that, there's so much fear, so much anxiety, there's a lot of guilt.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: He went through a lot of trauma with his losing his parents and kind of the legacy that's now been placed on him through that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as obviously like as therapists, we're we can kind of understand this pattern as well of, you know, a young child who, you know, like sadly has to go through the loss of both parents, kind of having to like forcefully grow up but still be a kid.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think you can really see that in the first two Iron Man movies.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's a party guy, he's always got ladies on his arms.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's just in in so many ways, he's like a kid, but in other ways, he's kind of really needing to be responsible and dealing with a lot of these big emotions.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what do you think is happening underneath Tony Stark's uh like confidence and sarcastic sarcastic exterior?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think you touched a lot of it really well already.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of insecurity of his worth and value.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like with I know they've um showed flashes of his relationship with his father where it wasn't a warm and loving connection.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it seemed like it was pretty cold and disconnected.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think for anyone who's had that kind of dynamic with a parent, that can really challenge our sense of value and worth.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I I'm curious for his character, how he uses his bravado and confidence and sarcasm as a tool of trying to like distance himself away and show that nope, like um, you know, I can do things without needing his approval, but also pushing people away of not being vulnerable, um, of making sarcastic jokes, also intellectualizing a lot as a way of just like you can't hurt me.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna let you get close enough to hurt me.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even like with his relationship um with Penny and how like we do see like Pepper Pepper, thank you.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: See, mama Penny with Pepper.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and just uh it seems like some of the ups and downs that they go through um with the long like the their long-term dynamic.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it takes him a while to get there to to see that he's not this island on his own, that he can learn to rely on other people in his life.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think for him growing up, there wasn't many people in his corner, so we became very self-reliant.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in that, like we can, yeah, push people away because we don't need them.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I even think like through his development and his relationship with the Avengers as a whole, like that does become a mini family, um, or like his kind of first maybe experience of having like a full family.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: He was an only child, parents, like we already pointed out, like didn't raise or didn't have his parents his whole life.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of the times it can be so isolating.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And as you pointed out, his relationship with Pepper, but also his relationship with Happy, um, I think who's supposed to be his chauffeur, but they end up like developing like a bigger relationship.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think like those areas we're able to see some of the vulnerability slowly come out.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think with the sarcasm, you're right, it's kind of used as like a protection barrier, like, not gonna get too close, not gonna let people like come in and hurt me.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then in the first movie, he goes through like this very traumatizing experience of being like taken, and then he needs his heart fixed, and that's why he has like that little beam on his chest, and he goes through all of this, and then also learning that his um his uh I guess like weapons are being used in a negative way, and then that kind of switches it fully for him.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think I think that example and then the Battle of New York in the Avengers movie kind of um from there, I feel like we really see his character trying to prepare for the next threat.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just like a way that he really tried to cope through his anxiety of I could potentially lose all of the people that I now care about.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so yeah, that kind of came up.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what how do you think like that was his kind of what was he trying to do?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, trying to obviously like gain control, but in your perspective, what was that like for him?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting because with the the Balm New York, like there were so many variables that I think changed or played a role in in his transformation there.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where definitely being introduced to this new super threat that's um intergalactal, like it's no longer of this world.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have threats outside of our understanding.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and with him having all the like the resources he does, because he's a wealthy man.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so feeling responsible for having to take all that on, especially again, continuing that idea of he's by himself and like the the slow surrender into the Avengers family.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because throughout that film, he is butting heads with a bunch of them, specifically with Captain America.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because Captain America is like, we have to work together.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Iron Man's like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you don't tell me what to do.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I will be in charge and I will do what I want to do.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I could see that for him also through a traumatic frame line framework of I'm by myself in this against this huge threat where I don't have anyone I can lean on or trust.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that can lead to a lot of anxiety, and then we can then go through or or do way more radical things to feel safe.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think we I like to like the phrase of like the slow surrender, because as we see more of these movies, we do see more of that like he is bonding, he is learning to let his guard down and trust that actually I can rely on these people, that it's not just me.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's like a mixture of like there is some connection where he does start stop feeling as isolated and trying to protect the world, but he does feel like it's still on him, that there's still huge onus, that it's on me with my resources to protect the world.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's an interesting like conflictual um change for him.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do really like the slow surrender because yeah, 100%.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Even if we look at how Endgame ended, he was very much like, let's be a team, let's figure this out together.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's strengths that each of us have, let's figure out what that is.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I do to your point, like Tony seems to um like have this belief that he can fix, build, uh like create anything to prevent any disaster from happening.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like we see this maybe, or you've seen this maybe with clients previously, but like what happens when we try to solve our emotional plane just through action?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like it's it's only one, was it one prong of the fork?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like we need so many other levels and dimensions to help with moving through peacefully and and managing it.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we can, yeah, with Tony, it's it's like we are he's going through this one lane and focused specifically on yeah, like trying to solve everything here.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um one thing about like him kind of growing and really starting to build his own relationships, we see a really strong relationship and connection that he makes with Peter Parker.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we see that in Infinity War when Peter Parker starts disappearing, turning into dust, and that carries over into Endgame.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think really it's him wanting to get Peter back that really gets him to see if this going back in time thing that Ant-Man suggested is actually going to work.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what do you make of his relationship with Peter Parker?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Where like how do you think Tony's kind of connecting to Peter in the first uh what is it, Tom Holland Spider-Man movies, where we see that connection first?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love seeing that part of Tony come out because we see it in some of the other Spider-Man movies prior to like Infinity War of him, or I can't remember the timeline of the films, but um him kind of taking on that father-like role for him.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So he does feel responsible for him.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like he literally gives him like a suit that sends an Iron Man suit to come get him because he went too high up in the stratosphere, um, and like had to come get him, make sure he was okay.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's just fascinating how it's um it's really cool to see this person who is I'm pushing people away, I can do things by myself.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to this teenager, like I think he sees parts of himself in Peter, like he doesn't have um too many uh attachment figures in his life and sees him with all the potential and the good that he wants to do.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that Tony that resonates with him in a very different way because we don't see him in that role with any other character, like this.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we don't we see a softer side, but we also see a harder side because he is afraid of Peter getting hurt, he's afraid of him um being endangered in some way.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it was really cool to see that evolution of me turning from this like this bachelor, I do what I want, to wanting to like mentor and take care of this kiddo.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, also, you know, still sarcastic and pushing him away a little bit.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um but he does have vulnerability, he shows vulnerability with Peter.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think Peter also is a character that is more emotionally um aware and in tune, so that creates space for Tony to also kind of meet his level a little bit.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they both kind of they they're very beautiful relationship, but they both kind of help each other grow in different ways.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I think Peter Spider-Man does is uh a big variable in Iron Man and Tony's transformation.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we see that grief, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: We see that we see it kind of through Infinity War, we see it through Endgame.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think in Infinity War, no, it was at the beginning of Endgame when he like Tony's lost in space, and then he's coming back, and the first thing he says to Pepper is I lost the kid.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like that's his first thing, and that grief carries on for what is it, like five years that they're in like within the blip or whatever.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been like five years that he grieves, and then we see him at his cottage, he has a family, he's with Pepper, he's with like his cute little daughter, and we see that he still has a photo of Peter, and really he looks at that photo, and that's really what drives him to like the whole plot of Endgame, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Where they're really gonna go and do this time, time jump thing.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I do really love the relationship, I think it really shows a softer side of Tony, um, but also like a side of him as like a father figure um for Peter as well, because like Peter didn't have that.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is really, really sweet to kind of see their dynamic.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even when he comes back, I think like Peter holds like or Tony holds, oh my god, at least it's so emotional.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: But like, like Tony holds his face and he's like, You're back.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and he like can't believe it.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's like holding onto his face and he's like, I'm okay, I'm okay.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then he's like talking.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think Peter's like, this doctor came out of nowhere, and he like suddenly he said you're needed and now I'm here.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then Tony's like, oh my God, just like grabs him in a hug.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like oof, like so much grief and so much relief in that moment for him.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really sweet dynamic that they have.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: As we're kind of ending our little segment on Tony, what's your opinion on Tony's healing?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you think he's healed through the MCU?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or do you think maybe he just becomes a little better at functioning with his pain or hiding it?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say, like, so I like to have like the most I have optimism in people and hope for healing and change.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he does a lot of change.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: He does a lot of growth.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um to the point where he ends up starting a family with Pepper, where you know, we see him in the first movie.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, he's like this bachelor with like woman on his arms, and like, you know, um, just kind of doing what he wants.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then near the end of the series for his timeline, we see that, you know, he's in a long-term committed relationship.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: He has a five-year-old daughter, or somehow that age.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he kind of was like this this father figure for um Peter, but then he also was part of this team.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even when there were like moments throughout it where you know he was betrayed, like with uh Civil America, uh Captain America Civil War, and but then was willing to let that go and you know work on creating those attachments again.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that shows a lot of growth in him, where movie one versus endgame, I think two very different Tony Starks.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just in his ability to connect with people, to be more vulnerable, being willing to sacrifice.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a big thing, too, is that Tony is known for being that sarcastic, self, uh, selfish uh person.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of why I didn't like him at first because I thought he was so arrogant and so selfish, and it was all about him.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And here at the end, he's the one making the ultimate sacrifice.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: He for him is like, I don't want to do this if I lose my daughter.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then here we are, and he's the one that you know is able to find the science behind the the time traveling, and then he's the one that ultimately does the snap with the like, and I think that Tony Stark from the first movie would never have done that to that extent.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to think that he's done a lot of real growth and change.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I think even if we look at the first movie, he's in this big, huge house, he's very like arrogant, he's like all about like the fancy cars, all of this, but then at end game we see him in like a pretty comfortable cottage.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, he doesn't he still has like a beautiful car.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna like go and say like he's like, you know, living with like not driving the nice car, but he still has like the cars, the techs, and everything.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it's so different than him wanting his name on the Avenger Tower.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: To him just being like, okay, it's at the Avenger Tower.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And just like, yeah, when we see him in Endgame, it's just a much more comfortable family life that he's created.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's night and day, right?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: With the first movie.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're gonna move into your favorite character, Steve Rogers, loyalty values, like all of these things.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Poor Steve, like he's really gone through it.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's been poor guy, was like really teeny, went through this big scientific thing to give him muscles and make him strong and everything.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then he was like given the title of Captain America.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And while he was excited to go and fight the war and protect his country, he was found out that actually, no, you're just kind of gonna be a little mascot for us and kind of help recruit people, give people like this hope.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like poor guy has just like really been through it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: His relationship with Bucky is so good.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like they're so connected.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also Bucky being like a big brother to him and defending him a lot at the beginning of Captain America.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: We see that.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: But there is, you know, from that he gets frozen and then suddenly, bam, he's awake years.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like 70 something years later, with everybody that he knew from back then, like not around anymore.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, trauma, like the hell is all my people.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna say trauma city right there, like right there.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's so crazy.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: But even still, through all that trauma, he's still so loyal.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: His he holds on so tightly to his values, his principles.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he's just really willing to stand up for what he believes in.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, like when your identity is tied to being like the good guy, which is I think everyone kind of teases him about it.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a big tease that he never says the F word.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one time he says like frick or is it or shit, and Tony Stark is like, Whoa, what did you just say?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's kind of like this running joke that he's just always the good guy.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know, I feel like it's just there's just so much for him.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we said, like Steve wakes up in a completely different world, having lost almost everyone he's known.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: What might that do to someone's sense of identity and belonging?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oof.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I think that would bring out a lot of grief, um, but a huge line of loss.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where do I belong in this world?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think, especially in our technologically advanced world over the past 70 years, like that's been a huge uh change in terms of modern technology advancements.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're just seeing that more in human history.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: So to go from living like world where like there's rules and values and societal norms, and then you're going to this other timeline where things are way more advanced in certain areas, um, I that'd be so blindsided to be in that position.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, he doesn't have many people to turn to, like you said, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no one from his circle there currently around.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like he does visit Peggy, um, and she's an elderly lady at that point.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but like who who does he turn to to help?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Besides Nick Fury, there and he's more like, let's get you working.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's like his boss in a way, like not someone that you can go to vulnerably to like express this this sense of loss and belonging.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I can't imagine what that would be like.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what's neat with him and seeing his character is how he kind of tries to find routine and structure to to guide him through it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like we see him, you know, like the laps around where is it in Washington, DC.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh like trying to create a routine of of finding like learning about the world.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like he adapts, he like has that list of things to check out that people are telling him about.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but he's he's still open to trying to like meet people and connect a little bit.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh Black Widow is like someone that kind of steps into that role of of being um that friend to help him feel a bit more connected.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um Sam Wilson, like Falcon, is also really like, yeah, I feel like that's his biggest connector too, like or I guess like friend person.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um before the people in the Avengers, I think.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think Black Widow from the actual like original Avengers group.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think Black Widow was like his connected per like his person at that time, like they made a really good friendship, but yeah, yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's I I can't imagine what that does to somebody.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, like you said earlier, about it, I can see how that forces someone to either change completely or hold tighter to who they are.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with Steve, we see this continual, these are my values, and I'm gonna cling to them because this is what is makes sense to me.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is what's comfortable, this is what's stable and predictable.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm in a world where I don't have any of those things, well, I'm gonna try and maintain that for myself.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in civil war, we really see the values piece and the family dynama kind of break down.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: People have to choose sides, it's Captain America's side or Iron Man's side, and it really creates this like disturbance in this group of people that really were behaving like a family.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: How much of Steve's behavior do you think comes from his values versus his grief and attachment?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh so, like at that point, he knows Bucky's alive.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bucky's been programmed to be like this killer.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there was oh my gosh, there's so much happening for this poor man.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can definitely see like this this duality of like, it's probably both, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's both like the grief of Bucky is the last person I have left who's been in my life.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like you mentioned, Bucky and Steve known each other for most each other's lives.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And to have that introduced into his life again 70 years later, where he where he didn't expect it, um, it makes sense that he's gonna fight like hell just to maintain that.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that loyalty piece of like, this is my person.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: He's been loyal to me when I was before I got the the super super serum and turned into this person.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna turn my back on this person.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's one of the huge values of his.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also the attachment piece of like he's been with me through it all, and I can't turn my back on somebody, even though he's it's very great, but he did terrible things, even though it was against Bucky's like will.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's it's very great, but I think it's a mix of all of it, really.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the grief of losing it all and having it reintroduced, especially such an important figure in his life, and that value of loyalty, because we do see that value throughout the films.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can see different scenes maybe pulling out different elements of that, but it I think it was just a perfect storm of all those dreams.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree, and like we do see like so much happening there, like promises are being made and then broken, and then all of these connections, people are like, you know, we see Black Widow go for one team and then go switch to the other.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that was also loyalty and care, too.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was just so much happening in that.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I also I agree with you.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, imagine you're woken up 70, however, many 70 years, whatever, after everybody that you know is no longer around or they're now elderly.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And now you see Bucky, who's like the same as you it he was when you left him.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's I think you see a lot of emotion.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Chris Evans, the actor, really like it speaks to him and like his facial acting when, but like it's so emotion, like so much emotion runs through his face when he sees Bucky again, Bucky trying to kill him, but he sees Bucky again being like, Oh my god, it's you, which like makes his uh like ready to fight kind of he goes down to kind of be there for Bucky and everything.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I do think that loyalty really speaks to his kid, like his friendship with Bucky, and we see it throughout.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also see him as somebody who's so hopeful, I think, throughout the whole like MCU.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like poor guy's just like, you know, on the last branch of like hope, we see in Endgame, he's running a group, support group for people, you know, who are experiencing, you know, loss after five years of the blip.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's such a sweet way to kind of see him as like a counselor therapist kind of way.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I'm like, yeah, if out of all of them, I can see like Captain America being that or Steve Rogers.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it is so sweet to see that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I think even um Black Widow teases him about it because he's still trying to like instill so much hope.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And she's kind of like, like things can be shitty, like things can just be bad.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: You don't always have to look on the bright side.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just so instilled in who he is, um, that he's like running these groups.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I feel like that's yeah, like that also speaks to just who he is.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what do you make?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're switching gears with Steve a little bit, but like, what do you make of his relationship with Peggy?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like if we go back to the first Captain America movie, there really is no romantic relationship with them at all, besides like a couple little like looks and things like that.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: But in the actual storyline that we see, they don't really, they're not dating.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's maybe like the beginning of infatuation or like having a crush on somebody.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the storyline of him trying to reconnect with Peggy is goes throughout the whole entire MCU universe movie, even bringing us to the last scene in Endgame.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's kind of like, what do you make of that relationship?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so therapist destiny aside, human destiny.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love to ship characters and I love like that one true pairing.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I always like to find that in in films and media.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I was like, yes, Captain America and Peggy, they need to be together, just because like what I liked about their dynamic, because like you said, in the first film, it's it's like the beginning of dating.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of both like have had crushes on each other with like checking in with each other um and just noticing other things, but there's never really direct conversation about until the very end.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: As Steve is, you know, driving the or flying the um the ship and knowing he's gonna crash it, so that and saying to Peggy, like, let's let's go on that date, like let's actually like let's start this.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that was literally like the last few moments of him before he went got frozen and then woke up 70 years later.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for her to like agree to it and be like, Yes, let's look, I look forward to it.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then he wake up wakes up 70 years later, it makes this is still so fresh for him.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't been decades, it's been that just hope happened like moments ago for me, and now I see her here, and she has she's aged and she's now you know, she's lived her life, her life is complete, and we do see her pass away.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it and you do see him throughout the films like longing for her and trying, like he agrees to go on some dates and and all this, but you see that he's still pawing for Peggy.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the the shipper and me, I was like, yes, like I love like that bulky in relationship, even though it's like it's a very sad um romanticism.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: So an end game for him to go back and have that uh that connection with Peggy and actually be able to live that life with her, I thought that was a beautiful uh goodbye for Steve because he didn't belong in this time.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And he was trying to fit himself through it and trying to adapt, but you could see that his heart was still way back in like the 40s.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for him to make the choice of I'm gonna stay and live out my the rest of my life with Peggy.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't understand how that works timeline-wise with the rest of the films, but I'm not gonna go into that right now.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought that was giving Steve the gift of you've done the work, now you can just rest and joy because you've worked so hard for it.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like closure too, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like he deserves a happy ending and he's kind of always been siloed, like it's he's been part of a team, but I think like that romantic relationship, that like loving and caring for somebody else, like has never really been something he's experienced.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And throughout some of the movies, I think um Infinity War, I believe, with um Peggy's niece, who's a shield agent, we learn from her that his like her aunt, Peggy, has always talked about Captain America in Endgame.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: We see him go back and see her through the window.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when they go back, um, and there's a picture of him.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the longing is reciprocal.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's longing for her, and everything that we can see from the storylines that we are we are watching in his life.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in the little glimpses we get in Peggy's life, she's also been longing and you know, trying to figure out like, how can we bring him back?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: How can we make this happen?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and eventually she does marry and she does have, or no, I don't actually think she ever got married.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think her sister, yeah, because it's the just the niece.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the niece mentioned like she's kind of always been waiting.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I got that wrong, sorry, folks.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think like there is this longing.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of Endgame, in that moment, like whenever the year was that that movie came out, I was so grateful that he got his happy ending and he was able to live this life with the woman that he's been like pining for for like years and years.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and fast forward to now, the little glimpses that we're getting into Doomsday, it might be that Captain America's going back to do all of this and get his little closure with Peggy might be kind of like the thing that catapults this new thing that's happening and having uh Dr.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Doom kind of come into play.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll see what happens from that in December.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited because in one of the little sneak peeks, they do show him with a baby, like a fresh newborn baby.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my God, like I have to learn more.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I am so excited.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they're bringing back Steve Rogers as Captain America.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we think Oh my gosh, I'm like a little scared.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, I'm I'm ready to get heartbroken, but I'm not.
• 38:40
  unknown: Okay.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: But no, I yeah, I love that.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like it, like you mentioned, it's a reciprocal.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: She has also been thinking and and wanting to, you know, she hasn't let go of Steve.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um she's still waiting for that first stance.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, we cry.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So for me for him to like one of my favorite characters for him to see him get to that point because a lot of the characters, we don't see them have that happy ending per se.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we see them like we see them continually be like isolated or they lose people they love.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to see that, like, hey, one person kind of got it at the end, and that's just that's just nice to see.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: One relationship dynamic that I really like is Steve Rogers with Natasha Romanoff.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, we just talked about all of the grief that Captain America has been, you know, navigating and dealing with.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then at Endgame, we also see him grieving, losing Natasha Black Widow.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we also see the grief of having lost Tony.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there is that in his face.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, oh, like I lost somebody else here as well.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: But moving into Natasha, um, there's a lot there.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Again, a lot of trauma.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: I really actually enjoyed the Black Widow movie.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was nice to kind of get a little background on Natasha.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the character of Yelena, her sister, played by like Florence Pugh.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: She's hilarious and just brings a whole new spin into the Avengers world.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: But Natasha is, yeah, such an interesting character because of her history of being controlled by other people through like the widow project.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's so much guilt around her past.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: We learn in the Black Widow movie that she was kind of taken from her biological parents and placed with these other agents to pretend to be a family.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think through that, in her relationship with Yelena, her sister, there was like a you're not actually my sister.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is just fake.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're pretending.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I think through that there was like a genuine connection that they eventually had with each other.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there's just so much of her work too.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we're introduced to, I think when we're introduced to her, it's an Iron Man 2, I believe.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And she's introduced by Nick Fury as like the spy.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's kind of it, right?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't really have much.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then eventually we see her in Avengers, and then there's a little bit more of a backstory that we get.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I think um, yeah, she's her there's a so much grief in her life and also shame about what she was forced to do um as like the widow.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when she was what was it called?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like the red, the red something.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't remember.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like when she was being controlled, um, like so much grief.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then also like her relationship with Clint, like hot guy, so like brotherly sibling-like.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, there was just so much there.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways, her entire identity was kind of shaped with being controlled by other people.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: What impact do you think that had on her sense of self?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can imagine she didn't really have a sense of self.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like she's been told who to be, what to do to really be this killer, right?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and not really knowing who she is or or what she wants, what her values are.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's interesting to see how she becomes like a member of the Avengers, where these are the good guys, like these are the people the exemplary of of humanity who are protecting us.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's neat to see her kind of, you know, I think in the first movie they talk about how she has so much red in her ledger and she's trying to um like uh what's what I'm looking for?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: To kind of uh like redeem.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Redeem, thank you.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Baby brain.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um try and redeem that and and we can see that some of her values are coming out of like I I don't want this path that was forced on me.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I do want to do good and and help people.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think what I find so fascinating about that is that when we are put in a position where this is what you're forced to believe, and then we start to let go of that, then the values that we pursue afterwards, I find those are a true reflection of who we are because it's so much it can be easier to hold on to what we're told because it's a lot more emotional processing, grief to let go of that and to venture forth and find out who you really are.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's need to see her evolution of a character and how these other male, her colleagues like Captain America, Clint, these are males in our life that aren't using her, they're giving her space to um be who she wants to be and support her.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really appreciate how in the MCU they have these like platonic male female friendships that they're encouraging each other and supporting each other without uh anything else attached to it.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we see how she really, again, at the end of with Endgame, she does the final sacrifice, like literally.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Her and Clint are fighting over who is going to be the sacrifice.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: But again, we do see this evolution of she didn't know who she was, didn't know what she wanted, and then she kind of figures out, explores what she wants, makes decisions, knowing that, like, I want to be a superhero, but for me to do this, people are gonna see all the terrible things that I've done.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the Black Widow movie, she connects again with like her family, the people she was raised with, and her relationship with Yolanda, like they it becomes a lot deeper and more significant.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we see her then continue on, and she's right along Steve, like an endgame with the beginning there, where it's like it's been five years since the blip, and like she's trying, but you can see she is barely holding it together.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: She's really struggling with the changes.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think too, like she's create like a lot of these characters, she's really create like the adventures have become her family.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in that scene and endgame where Captain America, like where she's still like um doing like the little meetings, and you see everyone kind of just um holographic, yeah, like the little holographic meeting that she's having with like Rocket and Nebula and like everybody.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you you see Captain America be like, or no, you see um shoot, what's his name?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I can't remember his name.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you see him and you see him be like, hey, like you don't have to keep this, like you don't have to keep doing this.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, things are okay.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can kind of and she's like, nope, this channel's always gonna be open.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like you guys can always come in.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's still such like this.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she's still wanting to be available, she's still wanting and still she has hope in a very different way than Captain America does, but she's like not wanting to kind of let go of that.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: She's still missing and longing for this family that was created with the Avengers.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see that, you know, conversation that she has with Captain America over some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, where they he's kind of like, okay, like we got to move on from this.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she's tearing up and she's crying.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I can't, I don't know how.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is my, this is who I am, this is my family.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then hope, because then um uh Ant Man just shows up at the front door and they're like, What is happening?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much of that.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she like has such like um, I think she really redeems herself, even her dynamic with Bruce really calming him down during um what is it called?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: The one with Ultron, um Age of Ultron.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like in that movie, you see her really kind of learning how to calm Bruce down, how to get Bruce to come back, or how to calm the Hulk down.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: They also really like form this really strong connection, which I think it was like a little bit of a romantic, teasing connection.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like there's so much of that, and she's built so much of this community around her.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think she like she's so deserving of like a normal life.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the poor girl, like, I don't know if she she never got a chance to get that um at all, really.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when she goes, we end up seeing like through um in Black Widow, it takes place, I believe, like around um the events after Infinity War.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we see her kind of still wanting to do work.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: She's still like she's in hiding, but she's still really wanting to do all of this.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, I think she doesn't know what a normal life is.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's literally been an agent doing work for other people like her whole entire life.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does that mean for her to really slow down?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for her, the big theme is like shame, right?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, these are all of the terrible things that I did.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't deserve this, or like all of that.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And as you pointed out, her relationship with these really great guys, her friendship with Captain America, her friendship with Hawkeye, they really do kind of validate and reassure her that she is good, that like she is who she is, and they're grateful for that and everything.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: But do you, I guess, why do you think the Avengers becoming her family so significant to her?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's because it's the first real family she's had.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is this is like the classic um, this is my chosen family.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was raised with this this family of agents where as a child I had no choice, no autonomy.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're living a life that is just not what I want.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then here she is as an adult trying to figure out who she is, and she's surrounded by people that makes her want to be better, where um she chooses to stay and wants to to better herself.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of one element of chosen family is we choose people that have similar values, but also we want to have some of that.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: They make me a better person.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: They bring out parts of me that I like and that I value.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we definitely see that a lot with the Avengers, um, as we see her like with Captain America or um hanging out with Clint.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like they encourage and support.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can see that when she loses them in an end game, like you mentioned, she has hope, but she's clinging to it.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like it's the only thing keeping her going is that we will find, we will connect, we will find a way to like maybe change this because for her to accept that this is this family is gone, that's not a reality she can live in.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we can see how really that family is so important for her that she is like pushing herself so much to the point of like I will die and sacrifice myself for the the soul stone so that my family can be connected.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't even a thought, it was like yeah, well, one of you must do it.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and she was just like, Yeah, like I'm going for it.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and so I I think that yeah, at the end, family, the Avengers is really her the most important part of her life.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is for sure.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like her relationship with Clint, we it's always so funny because we hear so much about Budapest, but we have no idea what actually happened.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a running joke.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I think like yeah, it's so funny.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, we see a lot of like Clint's character, which we'll talk about in a little bit, but we see a lot of like his development, and you know, at the beginning of Endgame, he's really like in a really dark spot, and she kind of takes him out of that because they have this connection.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you think her relationship with Clint Clint tells us about trauma and connection, given all of the things we don't know that happened in Budapest, but they always refer to?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, you know, trauma bonding is a thing.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, but I think it shows that um they went through something significant, but they they don't let that define who they are or what their relationship is.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like they become these huge supports for each other, where like Clint's wife knows of Natasha and she's like, she's what Aunt Natasha to the children, and she felt like their third their other child.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Oh, you know, the name Natasha is up for grabs if you want to name your baby.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it just shows like how going through that traumatic experience helped them like connect and stay connected and be vulnerable and open with each other and create space for like very healthy, safe dynamic.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I understand what you went through and I'm here for you.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he is one of the few safe people for Natasha for a while, anyway, before like the Avengers, because they have their own long history.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um Avengers show up.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's nice to know that she had like a safe person and like that smaller family that she could go to as she was trying to figure out her way and figure out who she was.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually, your comment reminded me of in the movie Avengers, we see Clint is being um manipulated by Loki um through the Tesseract, and he does some bad things.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when he eventually comes to, she's there and he's like, What did I do?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: And she goes, Don't like, don't even.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like that moment too really speaks to their relationship where we can clearly see that he has been somebody who has um like just seen her for who she is, apart from all of the things that she's done.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: And she's able to reciprocate that time to be like, you don't, don't even worry about it.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't you, like you were being controlled.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that was kind of really cool to see too.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um we okay, the scene in Endgame where she had to give up her life, so sad, balled my eyes out because you could see so much love between the two of them.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I really like this question, and I'm curious about what your response was gonna be.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: But how do you interpret her sacrifice in Endgame in the context of her self-worth?
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a big question.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I could I wouldn't be surprised if there's a part of her that thinks that I deserve this.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like the true redemption arc, the true way for me to redeem all the death and killing I've done is to put an end to this permanently.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be surprised that that is part of this.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to think that there's a much bigger part of her.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: That is, I love these people and I want them to come back.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if doing this will be what happens, then that's the step I want to take.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: And also I wonder kind of maybe as well, is like that sense of gaining control.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't have a lot of control growing up with the people in her life, and this is like I have some semblance of control here.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can do something about it, I can make a choice where I didn't have a choice with a lot of what I did in the past.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I wonder if that could also be a variable here.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't be surprised if there was, yeah, you know, the self-worth piece of like I deserve this, but I hope that's a small voice compared to the other voices of things that made her propelled her to that decision.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, kind of what I gathered was the self-worth of there's nobody for me, but Clint has a whole family.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's waiting to come back.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know if it would have been different if she ended up there with someone else.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I don't know what that would have looked like, but I think it had to be Clint because of their history that they have together.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe a little bit touching on self-worth, but like he doesn't deserve to give up his life because he has people waiting for him once we solve this.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas like I don't have anybody, and so it is still a little bit into like that self-worth, but I'm like you, I'm like, I really hope that it was like, you know, like I'm doing this out of like the goodness of my heart, and like just really because I love all of these people and I want them to like have this closure, like celebrate the fact that we brought everybody back, but yeah, I don't know.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we'll never know, but yeah.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: Moving on to Thor.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we see Thor's Thor makes me laugh.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: We see his whole kind of mental health journey the whole time, especially in Endgame.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Thor loses his parents, his relationship with his brother Loki is not maybe how he wants it to be.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: He comes into earth, falls in love with an earth human, um, but there is still this sense that he doesn't belong.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's a god, he doesn't actually belong on earth.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much powerfulness that he has within himself.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and eventually he feels like he failed to stop Thanos because he didn't go for the head.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like the big traumatic arc.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, poor guy's been through so much, but I think that's like the big trauma.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we see that in Endgame, he's isolated, he's struggling, he's put on some weight, he's drinking a lot.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's clearly not himself, the Thor, the version of Thor that we know.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that kind of opens up his storyline to a conversation around grief and depression, um, especially when somebody doesn't respond the way that we expect.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like throughout the whole um, all of the movies, Thor, Thor two, Thor three, and like Thor Reagan Rock, like all of them, we've seen Thor always kind of come back.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: We see him always, um, he loses an eye.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's still ready to go.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's just very resilient.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then in Endgame, we just see him take a complete turn.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: He's so quick to emotion, he's isolated.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the one Valkyrie she said to um who was it?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was Captain America and Rocket.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, We don't ever see him.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like he never comes here unless he needs to pick up beer.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, we actually see him really go in within himself, like shell himself up and only be with like the two friends.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he ends up, there was like a joke in there that he like started a fight with some kid um when they were playing like video games together.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's just so much there.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, why can failure feel so devastating when someone has always seen themselves as strong and capable?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's interesting because this failure is unlike other failures, where this was wiping out 50% of life everywhere, and he was the one to make like the final, the final attack on Thor.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I can see like and when we hear him in Endgame talk about how it's feels like it's on him.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was his fault.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was his failure, no one else's.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was his fault that Thanos won.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't bounce back from that.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because with the other ones, like it's it's more of a personal like hit.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like in Ragnarok, it's like his sister and it's his, like it's his hometown.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I wonder if there's a it's just very different um uh like gravity of it way more people involved kind of thing.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but oh my gosh, I totally forgot.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: He loses his whole uh like his whole planet.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that starts with Infinity War where they're trying to base.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um so he's lost so much, but he's also had other people around him uh that I think he was more willing to help like connect and move through it.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas with um like with Infinity War and then Endgame, um, he very isolated himself.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: He did not connect or reach out with people, except his the small little group in the house that he was living with.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um one thing I really appreciate with Endgame, and I know there's a lot of like mixed thoughts on this, is I appreciate more insight into men's mental health in the movie because um we can be really quick to be like, oh yeah, they're resilient, they can like shove through things, like they can push down that failure.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we see with Thor, like emotionally, physically, he is a different person.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um because of he hasn't bounced back, like the depression definitely has showed up for him and the grief.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I appreciated them showing that and giving space for men to like recognize that you don't have to tough it out, you don't have to like push through thoughts or feelings of failure.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like um it's very real and it happens with people that this like you can feel this way.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I appreciate how with the Avengers that they're trying to like connect and trying to help like try to ease some of that shame and guilt that he carries, um, which won't magically just you know take depression away.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I I do appreciate that they they represented that in the MCU because I find a lot of superhero films, there isn't that same reflection of mental health and how decisions can impact change of character and and where we're at.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I I think Thor kind of similar to Iron Man, like that onus, that sense of it's all on me.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Thor just took that and spiraled into it, um, to the point where he was he was willing to to try again.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm even seeing the thing of Endgame, like when they go back to Thanos and they find him, um, yeah, he went straight for the head.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't like they were trying to talk to him, and he just went straight for it.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so reactional, like it was like he needed to, just so he could like have that closure, but everyone was like, Oh man, damn it! Like our plan was to chat with him.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you're right.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: The redemption arc of like, I need to redeem myself, I need to show that I can do this and bring those people back.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was that was for him kind of thing, and then yeah, then we see how things spiral on out from that.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, we can just see how like that is something he really internalized, and um it it just took over for him.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think like a big I mean again, um grief, as we have just noticed, like it's been existing throughout all of these characters that we've talked about so far.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for Thor, there is also a grief in his relationship with Loki because in the first movie we see him really want to have a relationship with him.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Loki's like, nah, man, we're we're not, you're not my brother.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: I also think there's an identity piece that also comes into Thor because he's strong.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: He his relationship with his hammer is unworthy.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there is so much identity piece there.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so when everything happens with Thanos, and I think part of his depression is also like his loss of identity.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I believe he also saw Loki die at the beginning of Infinity War.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's just like so much that has been there.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like his identity piece of like, I'm a god, I'm strong, I'm capable, I'm resilient, I'm worthy.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: All of that just kind of comes crashing down.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do love when they do go back in time and he sees his mom and he kind of gets that closure with her.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like we see his anxiety act out, which like I'm like you.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's such a good depiction of men's mental health.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Cause you see him with Rocket being like, oh my God, I can't do this.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's like really doubting himself.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's so anxious.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't want to like see his mom.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: His mom recognizes him and she's like, I know you're not mine, but you're like a few, like, what was it?
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like the future hasn't been kind to you or something, she says to him.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he's able to finally be seen by somebody.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case, it's so beautifully done where he's able to be seen by his mom.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: His mom is able to validate, his mom is able to remind him of who he is, what his values are.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at the end, after like he feels a little bit better and he's had that hug and he's had like that moment to cope and like have that closure with his mom, he puts his hand out waiting.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then the minute that his hammer comes, he's like, I'm still worthy.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was a part of him that was like, I'm not worthy anymore.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's it, I'm done.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I believe um, in the in the infinity war, I think Thanos grabbed the hammer and threw it and like broke it or something.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that again, that's his that's his thing.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's his connection, that's his like reflecting self.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like this, this object tells that I'm I'm worthy and now I no longer have it.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: So what I must not be worthy, yeah.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like when he grabs the sword and he's like, I'm still worthy.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like, yay, okay, we're going on and up now.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're feeling a little bit better about yourself.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, there's just so much there.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanoff, Thor.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: And now I think we've talked a lot about these themes that these characters have felt.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is just the end of part one.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Destiny's gonna be back with part two, where we're gonna talk about the rest of the Avengers, including Hulk, who is one of my favorites there.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter Parker is a huge one.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned for that in part two, uh, talking about my favorite superhero.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, Destiny, and we will see you all for part two.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you reside outside of Ontario, click Google Search or Search Through Psychology Today.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'll help you find a therapist near you.