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ESKA - Vocalist, Composer and Producer · Electronic Music

• Caro C:  Hello and welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast about Electronic Music and all things synth. I'm Caro C, and in this episode I'm talking with ESKA, a Mercury prize nominee for her debut album which came out 10 years ago. ESKA composed, produced and arranged her second album, The Ordinary Life of a Magic Woman, which was released in May 2025. She describes her sound as Afrofuturism, Industrial Pop, Alternative Rock, Soul, RnB, Jazz and Hip Hop. ESKA has collaborated with artists such as Shabaka Hutchings, Dave Kumar, Kay Tempest and Grace Jones, as well as producing music for film, tv, theater and currently opera. Starting out as a jazz singer here, we unpack ESKA's journey down the rabbit hole of production and technology. As is customary, we start with a taste of ESKA's music. This is an extract of a track called All the Way Down from the aforementioned recent album, The Ordinary Life of a Magic Woman. Carol C: So, hello ESKA and welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast. ESKA: How you doing, Kara? Caro C: I'm all right, thank-you. So yeah, so much to unpack with your work. Let's start with looking into how you got to where you are, your journey into music. ESKA: You know, beginning my journey with production, Sound On Sound was right there. It was right there at the beginning and in fact it was there before, it was there before, because I was picking up magazines in various studios, picking up my friend's magazines, you know and whether they be bedroom producers or they, the studios elsewhere and feeling like, wow, I need to absorb this, I need to, you know, this is a safe space, I can read this, I can absorb this, I can digest this and figure things out for myself, you know, or figure this, figure things out alongside Sound On Sound and the only, the other thing that I wanted to add because it was just that the first bit of gear that I bought, because it's so precious, because this is what started me off in production, it was the Yamaha QY70 and those who know know, right. It was this, it's this little box. Okay. About this. What sort of a size of a, sort of a small book and this little thing had lots of sounds in it and, uh, it was a multi-track unit, right? Digital. Um, and, uh, I bought it because it was portable. You could, I literally was taking it on the road with me, so I was playing in other people's bands going on the road and you know, I could put my headphones on, plug into the QY 70 and I, it was the first productions that I ever made and this was before I, you know, I was trying to think of, is there a way I can avoid going the, you know, computer route, you know and this QY70 I thought well because I can't go on a road with a computer. I didn't have a laptop or anything like that and this was basically the beginnings of constructing, you know, multi-track tracking ideas and I became a complete QY70 evangelist. Right. I think, I think I managed to get a couple of people to buy one but they both confessed that they never really used it, it was just like, I was a really good salesperson for this thing. I know that there were several tracks that were made on there that eventually I did with the band, you know, with the band and we recorded them. I owe a lot to that little device. I guess I've always been a curious child from my beginnings in professional music work as a songwriter and as a singer. I recall going into a studio and just looking at all the gear and being with whichever producer I was with and being that slightly annoying person that would be, what does that do and how about that one, what you doing there, what do you mean by panning and what, so what does that, and what does that do and you know, some would be more patient than others. The funny thing as well was that from a female perspective, it was very interesting where there would definitely be that group of men that would be like why do you want to know, which I thought was a really interesting response to my curiosity and then there would be, you know, the others who would just be like oh right yeah, this means that and this does that and for me, the more information I got regarding the gear that I was using, the more I felt like I could play with it as a musician and that was really empowering, that was really exciting and that only gave me more possibilities from a compositional creative point of view and so that was what actually interested me in music and tech. It was the possibilities that it opened up for my musicianship and that, I mean you know, I'll get, I'll take that from any source, whether that be a new instrument or a new bit of tech that suddenly is a portal and so actually learning about my musicianship in a deeper way, that's ultimately what it's about for me. And that's ultimately what got me curious about music tech. Caro C: That is so interesting because I was at a conference once called Women in Sound, women on Sound and there was a woman there who was a professor and she, I think she taught music tech and she said we actually need to get rid of music tech. So just get rid of it, just call it music. ESKA: I love that. Why separate them? I love that. And that's exactly what you are saying is they were saying if a classical singer goes into a studio and they can't say, I want less reverb, I want less compression, they're disempowered and yet, if they know, like you say, if they know they can play with these techniques, these tools, these processes that feeds into, they're not separate. And that's exactly what you've said. And listening to your music, I can hear like your vocals are quite gymnastic was the first word that came to mind for me. No, you do a lot of, you do a lot of, yeah, flitting around in a wonderful way. Obviously you've worked for a long time with your voice, let's just say for the human voice itself. You go in there with that instrument. Once you know what's possible, it's, for me, it's all about chasing a compositional idea. And that's what the tech, um, supports, facilitates, um, enhances. And suddenly, you know, I will approach, uh, a melody or whatever, you know, a composition differently just because I've put, you know, whatever plugin I've put on it. Suddenly it's changing the way in which I'm feeling. Everything changes internally. Literally. It's a physical reaction. Yeah. 'cause we're talking about vibrations at the end of the day. Right. And so this is what gets me going. It's the vibrations. Good, good vibrations or bad ones even. Whatever those vibrations are that I want to. Play with, with, with, with my composition in order to basically tell the story. And that ultimately was what I understood about, um, what the jump off is for me with music making. It's the, you know, best way that I can to tell a story and using these with all these tools, uh, uh. Uh, at my disposal to do that. And then, you know, and over time, as, as is true of all producers, you can tell they they found their favorite, they found their favorite plugins, or they, they found their favorite chain or processes in order to, you know, enhance on a particular feeling. You know? So from, from a vocal point of view, yeah, there are an awful lot of fun things that I like to do. And I like to, but I'm constantly like experimenting with that. That's going to just continue, I think forever. You know, as long as I make music. And are you the kind of person who will keep trying? Oh, someone says, try this plugin. Try that plugin, try the Valhalla, try the sound toys, or are you like, I'm okay, I've got my toys and tools. Girl, you know, it's so interesting because I, I guess there are some people, it's like, you know what? I've got my chain. I like how my voice sounds. That's that, and that's me, and that's how I sound. But I am a little bit of a sucker for, uh, you know, an ad that might pop up. She honest, you know, Karen, the number of times, all right, I just, I have to try and talk, I have to talk myself out of buying some stupid. Plugin for 20 quid. Just that come, I just said, no esque. Stop it. 'cause you know full well that they've got other things in the chain that are making it sound that way. I'd say it's not, this is not the holy grail, just stop it. So there is, there is sometimes that that goes on. But I mean, like, you know, when I'm thinking, I look, I've got my door up now and I'm just trying to think of things that I really enjoy and definitely were game changers for me. There was one track on, uh, the, the recent album. And I'd sung the lead vocal, I dunno how many times. And I was convinced that, geez man, I, what is wrong with you? You, you're, you are, you should do a better vo vocal take. I thought it was the vocal take. And after about three days, I went stop it esque, you know, I sat down, this is a good, you're not gonna sing it any better. And I realized it was just the eq, it was just, it was a eureka. Moment, you know, as usual, my, my, my, my main tutor, you know, it sound on sound was the Bible, you know, in my beginnings. And now YouTube has kind of become the Bible in a way where, you know, I'll go on YouTube and get right, okay, vocal what is up with my. This vocal take, how can I make it better? And then, you know, invariably there's an 18-year-old telling you they're just, it's wonderful. I love YouTube in terms of education for, for production. It has taught me so much and continues to be, uh, a go-to place. But when I, um, I, I can't, you know, I don't, I, I can't remember who to thank for this, but the AOIs Air EQ Premium. Saw this guy use it on YouTube and uh, he was taking, he was doing a tutorial on how to sort of max it out, bring it a bit there, essentially kind of dealing with the, with the top end really. Um, and I put this on, played about with it and anyone of, for my ears, it was like a completely different vocal take. Completely different just because of the eq. And so for me, when I discover things like that and go, geez, like just the, the right EQing of a vocal can literally take it from mediocre to, you know. Actually singing, um, that, that, that, that makes me super curious about sound. That it can work that way. And also, you know, I guess, you know, where, where the voice is sitting in the mix, obviously. And I wanted this particular vocal take on the track called Touch to Just, it just, I wasn't finding. Place in the mix. And actually that EQ somehow it, it, it, it, it got it over the line. And I was really super happy with how that, how that came out. And then, uh, I was introduced to, uh, plugin that, you know, I'm trying not to make it my, um, my, my new Catchup, um, which is, uh, the, the Arteria Effects. Fragments. I dunno if you know it. It's just, it makes everything celestial. Um, and who doesn't mind? A bit of celestial, kind of sonics. So there are, there are, there are those things that, you know, from recommendations of other producers, other music makers. That you, you that just open up ideas and imagination and creativity and that's what it's about. And I think you're right, you know from the, the, uh, conference that you went to and that that professor talking about the music technology is an extension of. All that we're trying to create and all that we're trying to, trying to do at the, at the end of the day, most of the time I'm making it up as I go along, and that is the truth. I'm just experimenting, but I'm really thankful for a day and age in which I'm able to do that in my own space and that also I'm, I'm, I'm really thankful for YouTube in, in enabling me to get. Uh, questions answered quickly when maybe back in the day, I'd have to sort of wait on someone to call me back and find half an hour to explain something to me. Invariably, you are, you are gonna find someone talking about it. On YouTube, so that's super helpful. No doubt. When you are working with your voice, like for example, I'm thinking of your two albums a decade apart. Yeah. Are you choosing a particular chain style, um, Tamba effects for that lead voice? No, I don't, I don't think of it across the whole body of the work. I, I, I actually think of it like track by track. My, my, my songwriting approach is that the song. I, I trust that the composition will tell me what it wants to be, and then I have to just lean into that. I have long now ignored the voice that goes, yeah, but s that doesn't work with the last thing that you did. And how about the thing before? And shouldn't it make sense with each other? Why? What, who, who said, why, what, what? What's that about? You know, for me, I want to be true to the song, song is King, queen, like for me. Um, and it's about the best way in which to present that. Okay. That might be quite a chameleon approach, but. The truth is that is the kind of music maker I am there. I I am quite chameleon about the vocals. Having said that though, Caro, if there is an overarching kind of sonics and the vocal approach with this, this album compared to the last one, I would definitely say that, you know, in, in this vocal chain there was, there was a lot more distortion. As a, as a general rule, I was pushing the distortion, um, up a little bit. Um, when I started out there, there was this wonderful plugin, camel Crusher, which, you know, that was my catch up back there. I, I mean, I just put on everything, um, and. For the life of me, I have no idea. I mourned the day that Camel Crush Crusher disappeared, you know? Um, 'cause there wasn't quite anything like it. Um, there hasn't been anything quite like it. I mean, you know, please, um, listeners, please get in touch with me and let me know what I need to please recommend, uh, the replacement for Camel Crusher, but that on the vocals is just, oh, it's magic. It's really, if you want that crunchy, gritty sound, that was a good one for me. Yeah. I, I, I would say yeah, track by, track composition by composition, really. That's interesting, isn't it? Because I think as a fresh pair of ears on it, I could hear an overall identity there. Okay, interesting. Like you say, sonics there, and even if you are tuning into each song, yeah. It's almost like maybe you are, maybe you're unconsciously aware of the overview or it's of that time or something. I think that was, uh, the mic for that album was the Norman TLM 1 0 3, and that was my workhorse, Mike. And. It's a really, really beautiful microphone and has done me well for the 10 years. But I, I tell you, I've recently managed to invest in the U 87, and let me tell you, it's a beast. And I'm, no, I don't even think of myself as an audio file, but having, you know, when you've lived with, uh, the, the sound of your voice through. Through a process for a long time, you can tell when you're not. It is, it's, you know, the change and that it's so markedly different. It's unbelievable. There was actually a, a composition, I was halfway through with the vocals and it was all acapella, and I had to do the whole thing again. 'cause the, the, they sound, it's, my voice sounded so different, like I couldn't match it. And that was incredible for me to think. Wow. Okay. Um, both Normans, but the ua. Okay. I can see why this is rated the way I, I, I can hear it. I definitely can with my, and not only that, I, I actually had to, it was like I had to sing differently. It, it's, it's so, the clarity is so ridiculous that, um, I, I had to be much more aware. I became much more aware of my breathing. Wow. Oh yeah, yeah. Like this, the U 87 is gorgeous. It's, I feel like I'm, I'm singing to someone. That's just the only way I can describe. It's a really beautiful microphone, and I just thought, you know what? I've been singing long enough. I, I am worthy of having one, one of my own and not having to borrow, borrow one. So, um, yeah. And do people buy them new these days or do you get secondhand? It's kind of like an updated version. Uh. They, they, it's not, it's not like the, the original. Yeah. Purportedly just as good as, yeah. Um, I've got no complaints with this. I've got no complaints with this at all. Um, uh, I am, but like I said, like, you know, this has been about six months and I'm still learning this. Mike. I'm, I'm still learning this, Mike. I mean, I'd, I'd also say, say that the other thing that changed my chain in the last year is my, uh, my audio interface. It was time for an upgrade and I went for the Prism Lara two, and I am so happy with my vocal chain. This is the most killing vocal chain I've ever had, and I, I can. You know, it, it's making a huge difference to just my approach to singing. I bet. Isn't that amazing? I bet it is. And you're doing it, doing it at home then? Oh, no. Well, this is, this is my studio. It's not, yeah, it's not at home. But I I, I'm, I'm doing it all myself. I mean, yeah. I mean, I've, I've recorded my vocals. Uh, and even if, you know, collaborating with other people, I'm frequently, you know, I record my own vocals, send them to people, whatever, that you can do that these days it's a lot quicker. 'cause I'm, you know, I'm right here. I'm right here. Logic's right here. To be honest with you, it cuts out a lot of time if I do it. There's, there's no point. I haven't been recorded for a long time. As a vocalist, has it changed your agency? You are almost, you are then becoming the producer. You are becoming the director, aren't you? So instead of someone else deciding whether it's the right take, someone else deciding whether it's the best vocal you can do at that moment, you are doing that. You got it. Oh yeah, big time. Uh, I think I've probably, um, I come from a live background initially. Um, and so for me there's a very real, real distinction between being a live artist and being a recording artist. Yeah. And quite, quite frankly, Carol, I was quite scared of being a recording artist. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, I. I'd kind of probably lean into, you know, being a jazz musician is an excuse. It's like, you know, I don't wanna be, uh, beholden to document something and it be the final version of something. What does that even mean? Um, you know, songs are living things or they, they can, should be living things and open to interpretation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And evolving as you are exactly. Right. So all of that, and I actually, I really appreciate, back in the day, I was certainly more a seventies artist or you know, certainly pre eighties, where you'd find artists recording 2, 3, 4 versions of the same song over a a period of time. And there's something I think isn't that beautiful. It's funny that we don't do that these days where you go, yeah, you know what, it's time to update my version of this song. A a and come back to it. Um, as I've grown older, as my voice has changed, as the instrumentation that I'm using has changed. I mean, this is really in for me. That's a very interesting thing. Well, also, the more you perform it, because the, now if you've got that process of you've prob, you might have performed a song, but then you release it and then you perform it. Quite a lot of time. Yeah. In some kind of touring form. Yeah. Yeah. It's changed by the end of that process, hasn't it? Absolutely. And I mean, for me, you know, I still love li live albums. Mm-hmm. I think in the day of, in this day and age of Ableton, where literally live sounds exactly like the record, I think we're sort of missing the point I think of for me, and maybe that's me as a, as an improviser, but the wonderful thing I think about, you know, what excites me about seeing an artist is actually how they're going to expand on. This song and how they're gonna communicate with this particular audience and how things are gonna change and how things are gonna manifest in a different way. So yeah, it sort of, you know, that, that being able to revisit, uh, your work, I think is a quite a powerful thing to, to do and certainly to, to give myself the agency is, like you said, of being able to record my voice and also being the one that can decide. That's the take or that's not the take. Um, that's been a really important journey for me to go on as a, as a singer because of, uh, in terms of growing in confidence with being a recording artist. Because it really did, it's, it did take time for me to, and it's still, I'm on that journey where, you know, okay, being a recording artist, what is it and how is it that I want to document this song, this particular composition? How am I gonna document it? And, and learning to learning about what, what I find enjoyable about my voice. You know, that's gonna be, it's subjective, right? What, what another producer, you know, so whoever's punching me in and out is going to be hearing or looking out for a different quality to me. And actually, um, in, in the journey of production and music making in studio environments, I've had to come to a point of learning when to say, yeah, esque. I like that. For myself and I, I, I've gotta be honest with you, Caro, from a, from a singer's perspective, it saddens me that, and not enough women have that, um, go on that journey. Uh, are not encouraged to go on that journey, um, for themselves to learn what they enjoy about their instrument, if it, if it's voice. Particularly voice work. It's such a, a nuanced and, oops, sacred. That's the only way I can explain it. It's sacred thing. It's a painful journey. It's not all pleasant. Always pleasant to learn to understand. And also because, you know, obviously I've got, we've got, we've got headphones on How I hear my voice in headphones, in the cans. Compared to being in a space in a, an acoustic environment, a way in which I hear my voice. And the fact that you've got the reflection back, not only in terms of the actual sound ways, but then you also, that you've got an audience. It's a completely different experience to vocal of, of vocalizing. And learning how to adjust to those, between those environments is a really. Uh, incredible journey for anyone to allow themselves to go on, especially if they're able to spend the time by themselves in that process. I had a friend in the other day actually, and, and she was saying, she was like, oh gosh, I, I can't, I couldn't spend the number of hours that you do by yourself on your own. But I would say that there's a, there's an industry of women. We are able to spend time a long times, uh, a long period of time on our own with our gadgets. I think things are changing now that, um, I think the digital ages really en, en empowered women. More women, I think, to get more comfortable with being, uh. In tech spaces alone. 'cause then you, you don't feel so alone when you've got YouTube. And like, in the same way that I didn't feel so alone, knowing that I had sound on sound to just read and, and, and, uh, and, and, and read writeups and reviews about gear that I was checking out and be part of that conversation as well, um, with my peers. That was important. In a safe way. In a safe way, yeah. Probably. I suspect you like me, you, you, you, you, you're, um, you, you've got enough confidence, self-confidence to be able to ask those questions. And I, you know, I don't, I, I don't care about asking the, the silly questions, quote unquote. Do you know what I mean? I just wanna know what's going on. Exactly. I think it's the, um, I think it's curiosity more than confidence. Yeah, you're right. Curiosity. As long as the desire outweighs the fear. Yeah, you're right. So I find it interesting that you had two albums a decade apart. Yeah. Um, I'm assuming there's a big journey in between there, but the first one was actually Mercury nominated, wasn't it? Yeah. So how did all that come about and how has the decade in between led you to your new album? Just a small question. Yeah. Yeah. I think when I, when I look back at, on that first record and, and the journey that led to a Mercury nomination, I think there were lots of factors. Not only in terms of the record, it was also to do with the live work that was going around the, the record and the promotion. The promotion of the record. Um, a very different time to now, um, where I think. In terms of press, and I'm sure um, sound on sound has probably been affected by this. I think just the digital age with information and the way in which people find information is very different now. But post that 2015 album, uh, my daughter was only a year old, you know, so life has been lifeing. In addition to that, I really wanted to, uh, explore how I could use music for storytelling. And it was always my ambition to, uh, write for film, theater, uh, and such. Uh, and I also got the opportunity to act as well for the first time in 2021. And so starting to act. It seemed, it resonated with me as a performance artist and my curiosity about stories and storytelling. So, when I got to do my first film score for Leo Lee's Sweet Sue, uh, it, it was a baptism by fire, um, just, uh, learning about beat mapping. My goodness, that was a challenge and a half, which I, I, I was so grateful for. And again, you know, just. Learning on the job really. Okay. The sync, how to sync, um, visuals and sound. Um, and also the way in which music behaves with visuals. Its behavior is very different. Again, you know, it goes back to the curiosity thing, arrow, like that's what it was. It's just the curiosity about, okay, how and why does this, does this work? Or why does it not work? You know, all of that. And equally getting to do music for podcasts and, uh, how does sound work? In an environment like that. This was, um, the, the last one was, uh, India Racons, um, child Podcast, uh, which you can find on BBC Sounds a phenomenal, uh, podcast charting, uh, human development from, from conception right through to the first year of life. And so I contri contributed. Um. Uh, music to, to that. And again, you know, I mean loving, uh, to work with a brief, loving to work. Uh, you know, it, it is completely different to, than me, uh, as I am now, like today, kind of working on my own thing and just, okay, where do I begin? There's from. Trying to, the starting point can be as nebulous as I like, as I like, but when, when you are, you are given a brief, like, okay, we want this to sound like the, the, the rush of the mother's blood through the veins, the baby's heartbeat pumping and okay, what does that sound like? You know, that excites me. To get a brief like that and to think, well, what does music, what, what kind of sound is that, you know, um, uh, and playing with found sounds as well. So it's a kind of different approach to music making, um, um, with these kind of assignments that have come up over the last 10 years. Um, but certainly, you know, I was always chipping away. With, with solo compositions. And it felt like, you know, last year it felt like, okay, the coming together of a body of work finally that I felt like, okay, I can put my name on this. And um, and actually I feel like I'm making an artistic statement, um, uh, as Esker, you know. Um, so that's sort of been the journey, the 10 year journey. And so do you think that's your MO then to, um, release an album every decade? Or is it just how it's happened? Um, it's just how, how it happened. Um, if anything, if I think of what would success look like moving forward? Um, now that I'm in a different stage of my life, my daughter's 10 now and I would love to see. I would love to be in a much more prolific era of music making, making and throwing caution to the wind. Um, getting to, um, explore different ways of, uh, uh, composition, different composition approaches. Getting back to some improvisation, which would be super fun for me. Um, and yeah, different formats. I've always wanted to put out a cassette and so, uh, you know, that, that kind of, I'm curious about that. You know, what, what I would put on a cassette tape, you know, things like that. Wonderful. Um, and in terms of then the music around, um, your gymnastic voice, as I have accused you of Ah, yeah. How does that work? Is it that you make the parts first or if you have a reliable band of musicians collecting musicians you work with, how do you build your orchestra if you like, or your band? Well, there were quite a few tunes, um, on this record that started out as doodles with um, uh. Myself and my daughter's dad, they were kind of musical exercises. There wasn't really, uh, an outcome that we were looking for. Again, it was just following our ears and curiosity like, okay, I've just put this guitar part down right. Over to you. What are you gonna add to that? And then, okay. I, we'd, we'd, uh, kind of play ping pong with it, with a, with a piece of sound, an idea. Um, and over time these ideas just got finessed, um, to a point where some of them, it felt like, Hmm, okay. I'd like a live band to play on top of them. Uh, and then, so live instrumentation was superimposed on some of these ideas that started out as doodles, some of them all in the box. Uh, uh, a lot of them were using acoustic instruments, uh, initially. Uh, and then, uh, uh, I would be back in the studio chopping it up, arranging it, and editing it. Um, I had a wonderful. Uh, production collaborator, um, Avi Barrett, um, who, yeah, showed me quite a few tricks and, and licks, um, uh, as well. Um, so it was quite an, when I think about it, that the process was quite, quite, quite arduous in many ways. It wasn't a quick flowing, uh, production, uh, journey One life lifeing, but also just the processes that I kept sort of. Introducing whether it be okay, you know, we're gonna add, add humans in there. Oh, okay. We're gonna go back in the box. I've learned some new production thing. Oh, gosh. Look, I've, I've found this new plugin. Oh, let me try. Lots of experimenting basically to try and, and create a new sound to try and create a, a, a, a sonic landscape that would excite me enough to feel like I, I sh I could be able to sing in this. 'cause often my voice would be the last thing that I put down. Okay. Yeah. So even if I do loads, loads of kind of backing vocals may be very intrinsic to the sort of the sonic world, the production. Um, but in terms of that top line, even if I've got a top line in my head and, you know, I've sketched it out using what I call yoga. I mean, I say, ah, says, yeah, yeah, you know, or whatever, something like that. The final take on it will be done only when I feel like I've, I've really, uh, sculpted a sonics that. Makes me wanna sing. Like I feel like, yeah, I wanna sing in reaction to this world, you know? So for me, singing is very much about reacting to the sonics. I was thinking that I love your obvious in interactivity. It's about interactivity for you. Yes. Yeah, it's, it is totally jazz. It's my, you know, as a young person, I think being nurtured in and being schooled in jazz and the tradition of being in the moment and listening, listen to whoever's beside you. Yeah. Listen to the sounds around you, the drummer, the guitarist, the pianist. They've just said, da, da, da, da, and what am I gonna say back? You know, it's always about conversation and trying to bring, and for me, that's bringing humanity. Into the, the, the, the, the, uh, creative process. And that's not to say I wouldn't do an out on out straight electronic record, but even in that, it, it, there has to be a sense of, for my voice anyway, that I am dialoguing. And like I said, I mean, I'm, it, it's, it's a bit of a joke, but I'm, I, I, I honestly feel like I'm singing to this U 87. I'm singing and I'm having a conversation with this bit of, of, um, music, music tech. And the way the sound is coming back to me makes me react, you know, and, and so this kind of reaction and interaction then would, um, enable me to figure out, okay, so right, maybe I need to work with these sound toys. Here, maybe I need to work with these native instruments here, or whatever pluggings, uh, are at my disposal to feel like, okay, this is gluing. We are now, we are now one thing. We are like, there's a symbiosis going on with the sonics, my vocals, my, my, my vocal delivery, but also kind of not being precious about. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not one for per, it's just my, my, my choice that I, IDII try and I, I keep away from autotune unless it's like a, I'm using it as a device. Um, because at the end of the day, I've got, I'm a human being, man. I want to sound human. I want to, you know, part of what, what music making for me is, is documenting that I was here. I was here and, and authenticity. The authenticity that's left for my kid, left for anyone who hears it, whenever they hear it, however they hear it, whether I'm here dead or alive. Do you know what I mean? Like that, that, that is actually, that's a core value for me, um, as a, as a, as a writer, as a producer. Um, so, uh, I think that that does impact the choices that I make. In quite a fundamental way in terms of what I'm using. You know, like you said, it was going back to that curiosity key and also using this as a tool. It's nothing more. Nothing less. Wonderful. So how does all that work live then, if you have had all those plugin chains, how do you connect all the musicians to all the plugins live? Uh, well, we've only just started out on our live journey and, uh, um, uh, I, I am brought in an MD in, because, you know, Ableton seems to be the door that works best for life. Um, and, um, I've got limited knowledge of Ableton. I'm still working. I, I, I respect how incredibly powerful it is, um, in the, in and what it's enabled, uh, artists to do. Um, uh. But there are some things about it that I, I, I kind of, I'm trying to work out. I think the, the live performer in me, instinctual performer, um, is still trying to work out how to use Ableton to enable me to be that and not feel locked in. Because I, I don't like being locked in Caro. I don't like it at all. You know, it's just like, okay, we press play and then Well, there's a sort of beginning and then there's an end. Yeah. You need room for, you need room for improvisation. You need room for responding again, don't you? Yeah. How do we go off piece with this, with this tech? And, um, that's still, I mean, like I said, it's early days. You know, we did our London launch at, at Rough Trade East and had a phenomenal time, um, going to a, a couple of other spots around the country. Um, and thinking about, you know, setting up my, uh, live dates, um, from November. Uh, uh, this year, uh, I'm curious as to how my journey's gonna go to enable me to work with Ableton. Uh. Uh, in such a way that it doesn't hem me in. 'cause I'm not, I'm, I'm not up for being hemmed in neither am I up for the band being hemmed in, because actually the reason why I've got other human beings on the stage is to play with them. I'm still looking to be surprised. I'm still looking to be challenged by. Them as, as artists, as musicians, as performers in their own right. Um, so the technology has to, you know, I have to find a way for the te technology to slot into that philosophy, if you see what I mean. Um, uh, but I'm, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm, I'm feeling like I've sort of woken up 10 years later into a world where actually people feel like. Quite comfortable slotting into the technology, not the other way around. Do you know what I mean? It's like, okay, well no, would you, would you disagree? Well, I think because I've come from starting with the technology, I think I've only become a musician via the technology, if you know what I mean. Ah. So in that sense, I think I'm always looking and I, I am very intuitive in my approach, right. And composition. So I think there is a way, but it's almost probably having the space and time to be able to play around with it. Yeah. So that you can sculpt it and you can train it. Yeah. To, to, to be your Absolutely. To be your tool, your bespoke tool. Yeah. So hopefully that person will be an enabler for able to Absolutely. I think it can do that. Of all the doors. Yes. That's, that's what I, I can see able Ableton is going to enable me to be Yeah. That and do that. What are you actually wanting Ableton to do then? So are you wanting it to do any playback of music or is it more about effects and, um, yeah, almost live mixing, which you can do a lot easier now with Ableton. Yeah, both. Right? Both really. But it's also whoever's controlling it, isn't it, isn't it as well it's it's also down to Yeah. The arrangement. Yeah. But also then how, how. A human has to control that arrangement as opposed to just like, okay, we just run this thing from beginning to end. Yeah. So I think it's the way in which, uh, it's the design. Definitely. You know, but what is, what is for sure, like you said, Caro, is that it's capable, it's more than capable. Yeah. I'm also curious about how it connects with, um, max MSP and you know, in terms of controlling lighting and all, all the Yeah. Yeah. This is now like. Super exciting. Yes. Yes. I was playing with an app recently. Um, a guy called Simon's made a thing called, um, I can't remember his surname, unfortunately. He's made a thing called Flowal, which is basically, you can have it on your, on, on your phone, on, um, like an Apple watch or whatever. Just just as a, alright, and, and by gestures, a bit like the me mug, g. Um, that kind of idea. Um, um, so, you know, so you can do a lot by physical gesture and you can be doing your effects and stuff by physical. There's so much there. I think it is just having that space to work it out. Um, and also finding that YouTuber if they have done it already, or if not, you need to be documenting it. You need to be documenting your process so that other YouTubers can go, oh good. I can, I can, I can come to Ableton with a jazz mind. Yeah, it's funny actually 'cause I did get the KY ring just to, to play with, I dunno if you're familiar with that, but Yeah, yeah, yeah. So had a little bit of fun with playing with that. I still, still not sure where I'm going with it yet, but other ways in which we can kind of sort of control, just trying to figure out how to do it in a slick way for live performance. Yeah. But yeah, so, so the nice thing is that, you know, there's, there's, there's still lots to explore with the project. With this album project. Now we are moving into the live phase of it. Um, so yeah, that's super exciting. Super exciting. Awesome. Wow. Well, it's been really lovely talking to you and unpacking some of your process and and stuff. So yeah, thank you so much and yeah, all the best with your continued adventures in music. Thank you. And likewise, Caro. Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes and further information. As well as links and details of the other episodes in the electronic music series. And just before you go, let me point you to sound on sound.com/podcast where you can explore what's on our other channels. This has been a Caro C production for Sound On Sound.