Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / Feminist Movie Friday: The Birdcage

Transcript

Feminist Movie Friday: The Birdcage · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Smantha.
0:07
Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff when never told your protection of
0:09
Speaker 2: iHeart Radio and today for Pride Month twenty twenty six,
0:23
Speaker 2: we are talking about the nineteen ninety six American comedy
0:27
Speaker 2: The Bird Cage. It was directed by Mike Nichols, who
0:32
Speaker 2: I recently learned directed the film Day of the Dolphin,
0:35
Speaker 2: and is a whole thing.
0:37
Speaker 1: What is that?
0:39
Speaker 2: It kind of came up because there was all this
0:43
Speaker 2: news about Ron having like killer dolphins, but apparently Day
0:47
Speaker 2: of the Dolphin was a whole movie about dolphins trained
0:52
Speaker 2: to kill political figures.
0:54
Speaker 1: I thought that was a whole US thing.
0:57
Speaker 2: Well, yes, in this movie it was the US. Yeah,
1:01
Speaker 2: but I learned a lot about the training of dolphins
1:04
Speaker 2: for this purpose unrelated to The Bird Cage. But when
1:10
Speaker 2: I saw I was like, White Nichols, I'm pretty sure
1:13
Speaker 2: that's the dolphin guy, which I'm sure he would very
1:15
Speaker 2: much justlike that.
1:17
Speaker 3: I'm laughing at the fact that you were calling him
1:19
Speaker 3: the dolphin guy.
1:20
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a dolphin.
1:24
Speaker 1: You never know what that means.
1:26
Speaker 2: That is true.
1:28
Speaker 1: That was not where I went when when you went there.
1:31
Speaker 2: That fair enough. That's yeah, Well we're not talking about
1:36
Speaker 2: the Day of the Dolphin today, but you can look
1:38
Speaker 2: it up. It's quite spectacular. The history, a lot of
1:41
Speaker 2: things you're not expecting to pop up, but anyway. It
1:45
Speaker 2: was directed by Mike Nichols, with an adapted screenplay by
1:48
Speaker 2: Elaine May, which was based on the nineteen seventy eight
1:52
Speaker 2: French Italian film The Cage Ah Fall, which was based
1:57
Speaker 2: on the nineteen seventy three play by the same The
2:00
Speaker 2: cast includes Robin Williams, Nathan Lane, Closta Flockhart, Gene Hackman,
2:05
Speaker 2: Diane Weist, and Christine Baranski. The story follows gay couple
2:11
Speaker 2: Armand and Albert Golmand, whose son Val is marrying the
2:17
Speaker 2: daughter of a conservative senator. It's thirty anniversary, I guess,
2:22
Speaker 2: really right, or so timely nineteen ninety six. I'm telling you, Yeah,
2:26
Speaker 2: sometimes it happens.
2:28
Speaker 3: A lot of the dub every time now on this boy.
2:32
Speaker 3: But we didn't do that at all on purpose, No,
2:36
Speaker 3: but it just happens.
2:38
Speaker 2: It just happened in this case. And I'll get more
2:41
Speaker 2: into a second. But when it came out, Uh, it
2:45
Speaker 2: was a critical and major financial success, which was notable
2:50
Speaker 2: because this was one of the first examples of a
2:53
Speaker 2: major US studio releasing a film that centered on gay characters.
2:59
Speaker 2: It won the Green Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance
3:03
Speaker 2: by Cast. It was nominated for a bunch of other things,
3:06
Speaker 2: but this one it won, And so yes, I have
3:09
Speaker 2: to say I had ulterior motives for choosing this movie.
3:14
Speaker 2: We did want to pick a fun one, and I
3:17
Speaker 2: have been meaning to watch this ever since my queer
3:20
Speaker 2: baiting experience for reasons. I was also very curious to
3:25
Speaker 2: see how it held up, or did it hold up?
3:29
Speaker 2: So we shall see. But I want to say before
3:34
Speaker 2: we get into this, pronouns wise, the character Albert, they
3:40
Speaker 2: alternately refer to him as he and then she when
3:48
Speaker 2: the drag persona is in place, So I'm going to
3:55
Speaker 2: be trying to stick to that. That's what they did
3:56
Speaker 2: in the movie, but just to say so, all right.
4:02
Speaker 2: The plot, Armand, who's played by Robin Williams, is the
4:07
Speaker 2: openly gay owner of a South Beach drag club called
4:11
Speaker 2: the bird Cage. One of his star acts is Starina,
4:15
Speaker 2: the drag persona of his partner, Albert, who's played by
4:19
Speaker 2: Nathan Lane. They live in their apartment above the bird
4:23
Speaker 2: Cage with another gay man. It opens with Starina putting
4:28
Speaker 2: off her performance. After a problematic Indigenous woman's stands up
4:33
Speaker 2: to say, Armand confronts Albert and reverse psychologies him into
4:41
Speaker 2: going on. Despite Albert's insecurities, Armand's son Val announces that
4:47
Speaker 2: he is getting married, and Armand is not happy about
4:50
Speaker 2: it because his son is twenty and jokingly because he's
4:54
Speaker 2: marrying a woman. His fiance valschiance, Barbara is nine, although
5:01
Speaker 2: they say nineteen at first and then they say.
5:03
Speaker 1: Eighteen eighteen, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, wait a minute.
5:06
Speaker 1: It was suspicious.
5:10
Speaker 2: From her point of view, Barber's point of view, we
5:13
Speaker 2: see that she's been lying to her conservative parents about
5:17
Speaker 2: her boyfriend's parents, what they do, their sexuality. She's really
5:21
Speaker 2: built up this whole wife for them. Barbara's dad, Senator
5:28
Speaker 2: Kevin Keely, who's played by Gene Hackman, is the co
5:31
Speaker 2: founder of a socially conservative group, the Coalition of Moral Order. However,
5:38
Speaker 2: his co founder is found dead and it's a whole scandal.
5:44
Speaker 2: It's a whole mess to get out in front of it.
5:47
Speaker 2: Barbara's mom pushes for their daughter's wedding to go forward
5:51
Speaker 2: as soon as possible as a distraction, like take the
5:54
Speaker 2: attention off this we'll have a wedding, not knowing that
5:58
Speaker 2: her potential son in law's parents are gay men. However,
6:03
Speaker 2: the Senator is worried that the family Vow's family won't
6:08
Speaker 2: want to go ahead with the wedding because of all
6:11
Speaker 2: this scandal, so they don't announce it to the press.
6:15
Speaker 2: Barbara's family comes to visit Val, Albert and Armand. Armand
6:21
Speaker 2: agrees to play into Barbara's lies and submits to his
6:24
Speaker 2: son's request to change his apartment, backing away his gay
6:30
Speaker 2: art for a couple of days. Albert freaks out understandably
6:37
Speaker 2: and is hurt by the insinuation that he shouldn't be
6:40
Speaker 2: there to meet Barbara's family. Albert and Armand fight. Eventually,
6:46
Speaker 2: they decide that Armand will direct Albert on how to
6:51
Speaker 2: present as straight, and that Albert will pretend to be
6:56
Speaker 2: Vow's uncle to make the story believable. They contact VAL's mother,
7:02
Speaker 2: who haven't seen it for twenty years, to get in
7:07
Speaker 2: on the ruse, so that Armand has a beard of sorts,
7:10
Speaker 2: he has a lady. They reconnect and Albert discovers them
7:17
Speaker 2: in a compromising position. I have to say they're not
7:22
Speaker 2: doing anything but it does look bad from Albert's perspective.
7:28
Speaker 2: Albert decides to go off on his own, but Armand
7:31
Speaker 2: follows him. They have a heart to heart and sign
7:35
Speaker 2: a legal document making them partners. But then when Albert
7:39
Speaker 2: puts on the suit, he tries the whole being straight
7:45
Speaker 2: man thing. He's hurt at the reactions of Armand and
7:51
Speaker 2: val And he leaves. Meanwhile, Val who in my opinion, sucks,
7:57
Speaker 2: I just did not like him at all. But he
8:01
Speaker 2: intercepts a call from his mom and tells her to come,
8:06
Speaker 2: even after Armand had already canceled the whole thing. So
8:11
Speaker 2: the Kilis arrive and meet Armand, and they start a
8:15
Speaker 2: very awkward dinner. Albert occasionally interrupts from where he has
8:21
Speaker 2: locked himself in the bathroom. He's just like crying loudly.
8:26
Speaker 2: Vow's mother is stuck in traffic, but Albert steps in,
8:31
Speaker 2: dress as a conservative housewife. Barbara's parents buy the act.
8:37
Speaker 2: In fact, they love her, that she's the best as
8:42
Speaker 2: everyone else panics because they know what's going on, and
8:45
Speaker 2: a tabloid crew observes and is trying to get in. Eventually,
8:51
Speaker 2: Vow's mom showed up and the gig was up. So
8:56
Speaker 2: Val introduces Albert as his mother and revealed that his
9:00
Speaker 2: parents are gay. The Kilies try to escape, but the
9:04
Speaker 2: press have surrounded them. Albert has the idea of dressing
9:08
Speaker 2: them in drag to sneak them out. Val and Barbara
9:13
Speaker 2: get married, and Armand and Albert are proudly attending as
9:17
Speaker 2: a couple. The end, Yes, a lot of singing of
9:22
Speaker 2: we are family.
9:23
Speaker 1: Yes, lots of we are family.
9:29
Speaker 2: This was interesting. I was intrigued to see it and
9:34
Speaker 2: see how things have changed, and there were definitely some
9:36
Speaker 2: things that didn't hold up. But I did think it
9:38
Speaker 2: was pretty It was a pretty joyous I don't know.
9:42
Speaker 2: Some of it was much sadder than I thought, and
9:44
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about that later. But the relationship
9:48
Speaker 2: between Armand and Albert, I thought was very sweet. Robin
9:53
Speaker 2: Williams was supposed to play Albert, who's the drag queen,
9:59
Speaker 2: but he didn't want to do it because he'd already
10:01
Speaker 2: done Missus Doubtfire. So there was something about seeing him
10:08
Speaker 2: sort of no pun intended straight man for Nathan Lane. Yeah, Yeah,
10:19
Speaker 2: it was interesting.
10:21
Speaker 3: It is the During this time, drag was having a
10:26
Speaker 3: kind of resurgence in Hollywood movies because also, so this
10:32
Speaker 3: was nineteen ninety six, and then two Wang Fu Thinks
10:36
Speaker 3: for Everything. Julie Newmar came out in nineteen ninety five,
10:40
Speaker 3: which has Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo in it,
10:47
Speaker 3: and they famously are in drag and Jimmy John Leguizamo
10:52
Speaker 3: I thought was a woman when I remember this movie
10:55
Speaker 3: coming out, and I really thought he was a woman
10:57
Speaker 3: because he was so pretty already.
11:00
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
11:01
Speaker 1: It was so pretty.
11:02
Speaker 3: But all that to say is they were really for
11:04
Speaker 3: having a moment where a lot of the straight big
11:08
Speaker 3: actors coming and playing into these films. And I want
11:11
Speaker 3: to say, Patrick Swayze may have won an award for it.
11:15
Speaker 3: I know you got a lot of accolades in this picture,
11:19
Speaker 3: so I have I did think that was interesting. It
11:22
Speaker 3: was all at the same time. There's a lot more
11:24
Speaker 3: movies coming out. Those are just two of the big
11:26
Speaker 3: ones that I remember it being big.
11:29
Speaker 1: And I don't know.
11:32
Speaker 3: What was happening that so many of the straight white
11:36
Speaker 3: men sis men were all about doing these characters. I
11:39
Speaker 3: think it was at this point that people were like translating,
11:41
Speaker 3: if you play something controversial, you might be noticed as
11:45
Speaker 3: a serious actor, so it definitely dug into that using
11:51
Speaker 3: people in the marginalized community as a way to bait
11:56
Speaker 3: people to get awards and to see a different side
12:00
Speaker 3: of them. So I do, I do find that interesting.
12:03
Speaker 3: But at the same time, like I thought, like I
12:05
Speaker 3: remember the first thing I thought about with Robin Williams
12:09
Speaker 3: playing this character of like a gay man trying to
12:11
Speaker 3: be straight as a straight man. He did a lot
12:15
Speaker 3: of like he took this I think respectfully instead of
12:18
Speaker 3: doing his regular caricature acting which he is known for,
12:23
Speaker 3: and I think that brought him a lot of like
12:25
Speaker 3: respect in telling a queer person story. At the same
12:31
Speaker 3: time it should have been a queer person which is
12:33
Speaker 3: that same conversation that I'm sure we're going to come
12:35
Speaker 3: back to, which why wasn't it because like it he
12:40
Speaker 3: actually did, I think a job that felt genuine as
12:46
Speaker 3: where Hank Azaria, who by the way, always plays a
12:50
Speaker 3: tan Man in all the things, even though I don't
12:54
Speaker 3: think he is.
12:55
Speaker 1: He's not from like Mexico.
12:56
Speaker 3: I think he does have like a lineage in being Spanish,
13:00
Speaker 3: but he's also like a Jewish Greek person, so he's
13:04
Speaker 3: always played He also played an Egyptian if you remember
13:08
Speaker 3: in Night of the Museum, in one of those caricatures,
13:13
Speaker 3: like it's it's interesting for him to play those characters.
13:15
Speaker 3: But then he comes and we know him as this
13:19
Speaker 3: other type of actor, and he is a character actor,
13:21
Speaker 3: so he is good at these things. But it's interesting
13:24
Speaker 3: because of the nineties definitely allowed for that. I mean
13:29
Speaker 3: even today we see it happening. But these movies are interesting,
13:32
Speaker 3: but how they portray each other character because he to me,
13:35
Speaker 3: he was definitely the over the top charricature. Nathan Lane
13:40
Speaker 3: is too, obviously, but I always saw him as that character.
13:44
Speaker 1: Do you remember he was in Sex and This. Oh
13:46
Speaker 1: have we come to that episode yet?
13:47
Speaker 2: I don't think we have.
13:49
Speaker 3: Oh I'm not gonna okay and back that up. But
13:53
Speaker 3: this put an asterisk by this because it we'll come
13:55
Speaker 3: back to this. We'll come back to this, because he
13:57
Speaker 3: does pop up in Sex and the City as an
13:59
Speaker 3: interesting character that's very similar to this. But also like
14:04
Speaker 3: we know Nathan Lane as a Broadway performer, which also
14:08
Speaker 3: has this like odd connotation that if you're in Broadway
14:13
Speaker 3: you're gay.
14:14
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
14:14
Speaker 1: So that's kind of like one of the stereotypes. There's
14:16
Speaker 1: a lot.
14:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of like a theater kid.
14:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot in this I felt interesting, and
14:24
Speaker 3: I know we're going to get into in this conversation,
14:27
Speaker 3: but this timing was an interesting time for straight men
14:31
Speaker 3: playing gay.
14:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was, and there there are a lot
14:36
Speaker 2: of reasons for it that we're going to get into.
14:38
Speaker 2: But I do want to touch on something that you
14:40
Speaker 2: said before we move on. I think that idea I
14:45
Speaker 2: can win an award by playing a minority character, or
14:51
Speaker 2: this is like a chance for my career. I mean,
14:54
Speaker 2: that's not your identity. I think that's something we're still
14:57
Speaker 2: kind of wrestling with. It still happens, absolutely, but it's
15:03
Speaker 2: just sort of this idea of, oh, I can take
15:07
Speaker 2: this other communities experience and make it my own and
15:12
Speaker 2: maybe get an award because I'm having to channel their experience, right,
15:20
Speaker 2: And there have been some actors who have done it
15:24
Speaker 2: more respectfully and others who have done it and not
15:27
Speaker 2: respectfully at all. Right, So that's definitely a question here.
15:44
Speaker 2: One of the themes I wanted to start with is
15:48
Speaker 2: that this idea of hiding who you are, because a
15:50
Speaker 2: lot of the plot is that they armand and Albert
15:55
Speaker 2: are settled and then Vow comes in and it just
16:00
Speaker 2: becomes this whole thing of they have to hide who
16:03
Speaker 2: they are, they have to hide the art, they have
16:05
Speaker 2: to hide how they walk and how they dress or
16:10
Speaker 2: anything like that. A lot of the articles I've read,
16:14
Speaker 2: we're talking about code switching in this case, of being
16:20
Speaker 2: able to tap into that for these characters straight man
16:26
Speaker 2: kind of identity, and that's been something in the queer
16:31
Speaker 2: community for a long time of the like straight passing thing,
16:34
Speaker 2: and Nathan's Nathan Lane's character it just really can't do it,
16:41
Speaker 2: and it is feeling this almost shame or judgment that
16:45
Speaker 2: he can't do it, but he knows who he is,
16:52
Speaker 2: and it's so sad, Like there's so many things in
16:54
Speaker 2: here that I think in the nineties were played for
16:57
Speaker 2: comedy and for me now I looked back and I
17:01
Speaker 2: was like, that is so sad. You should get to
17:07
Speaker 2: be yourself. And there's also this whole idea, of course,
17:12
Speaker 2: of gender as a performance. You see that in the
17:18
Speaker 2: drag community always. You see it, especially with Albert in
17:22
Speaker 2: this because Robin Williams is pretty like he would be
17:28
Speaker 2: straight passing, right, yeah, But for Albert, which by the way,
17:38
Speaker 2: a lot of people have been writing about this recently,
17:40
Speaker 2: maybe because of the maybe because of Pride or because
17:44
Speaker 2: of the anniversary, but they were like, Albert really got
17:47
Speaker 2: the shit into the stick here. But he puts on
17:53
Speaker 2: this kind of conservative woman performance at the end and
17:59
Speaker 2: it's sick successful in it, and that was more comfortable
18:05
Speaker 2: for him than doing this like straight, straight man, every
18:10
Speaker 2: day guy. One other thing a lot of articles pointed
18:15
Speaker 2: out is that the Senator is actually presented more like
18:19
Speaker 2: someone who is fake, like somebody who does not have
18:24
Speaker 2: a sense of who they are, does not care who
18:26
Speaker 2: they are, is pretending, and in the end it's Albert
18:34
Speaker 2: that gets them out without the tabloids realizing by a
18:41
Speaker 2: dressing them in drag. So a lot of the articles
18:46
Speaker 2: I was reading, we're just saying, like, the framing of
18:49
Speaker 2: this movie is really interesting because at the time it
18:53
Speaker 2: was pretty new to have a kind of joyous movie
18:57
Speaker 2: centered on cake characters. But also, you're not rooting for
19:03
Speaker 2: the Senator, You're not rooting for VAL's mom, you're The
19:09
Speaker 2: way it's framed is that these two men who love
19:15
Speaker 2: each other are more authentic than anyone else. Everybody else
19:20
Speaker 2: is pretending, doesn't know who they are. And there was
19:26
Speaker 2: one line Robin Williams said, and I thought he said
19:29
Speaker 2: it so well. Or his son is asking him, like,
19:32
Speaker 2: can you just go along with this? And he says,
19:35
Speaker 2: I don't want to be someone else, and it was
19:38
Speaker 2: just so like he figured out I who he was.
19:43
Speaker 2: He doesn't want to do this. Yeah, like I said,
19:52
Speaker 2: a lot of lines and here they made me sad.
19:54
Speaker 2: I think this is meant to be funny, but it's
19:58
Speaker 2: also there's a point they bring up where people get
20:04
Speaker 2: hurt because of who you are and who you love,
20:07
Speaker 2: and so you're trying to minimize the fallout. And I
20:09
Speaker 2: thought that was really sad because they have this nice, established,
20:14
Speaker 2: happy life, right, and then Weal comes in again. I
20:20
Speaker 2: really don't like Bell, but Wel comes in and is
20:25
Speaker 2: essentially saying this is gonna hurt me. If you right
20:30
Speaker 2: are true to yourself, that's gonna hurt me in my future.
20:36
Speaker 2: They also hide the fact that they are Jewish, which
20:39
Speaker 2: confused me for a long time. I was like, wait,
20:42
Speaker 2: what is their last name? Keep switching it up. But
20:47
Speaker 2: they do that because the senator, I suppose, also doesn't.
20:51
Speaker 1: Like to somebody.
20:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you go down the line of how his
20:54
Speaker 3: partner in that organization got caught was the underage.
20:59
Speaker 1: Yes, obviously that was bad.
21:00
Speaker 3: And then he's like black, like that's obviously he was
21:03
Speaker 3: racist as well. So like all of those came under
21:06
Speaker 3: fire all at once, and so he just hates all
21:09
Speaker 3: the people's which we see.
21:12
Speaker 2: That was one of the biggest things. I wanted to
21:14
Speaker 2: see how it changed because I knew there was a
21:17
Speaker 2: conservative senator element to it, so I was really curious.
21:23
Speaker 2: I would say, this is a much softer take on
21:26
Speaker 2: it than it is now, which is like almost got.
21:30
Speaker 1: Four or five right.
21:31
Speaker 3: No, the take on that was that he actually doesn't care.
21:35
Speaker 3: Is the optics to be a part of the Republican
21:38
Speaker 3: Republican Party with this group specifically and to win the
21:42
Speaker 3: votes and to make sure that he is on top
21:45
Speaker 3: is to hate these things because that's what the party wants.
21:47
Speaker 3: He doesn't actually care. Yeah, outside of the again the optics.
21:51
Speaker 3: So that's the actuality when we see with the politicians
21:54
Speaker 3: today that they actually do hate these people.
21:56
Speaker 1: So it seems.
21:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it feels worse, Like it feels worse now
22:02
Speaker 2: I've been watching this, Yeah, which could have which could
22:08
Speaker 2: be uh just a bride product of it being a
22:11
Speaker 2: comedy movie. They're not to go too much into it.
22:14
Speaker 3: But yeah, the nineties were when the politics was not good,
22:19
Speaker 3: but it wasn't as bad as this, and it wasn't
22:24
Speaker 3: because people weren't unlearning things at that point that we were,
22:29
Speaker 3: but it wasn't as bad. That the whole like melting
22:31
Speaker 3: pot theory was really okay then, so that was okay.
22:35
Speaker 3: So therefore they were allowed, like people were allowed to
22:38
Speaker 3: have the black community as a part of this conversation,
22:41
Speaker 3: the fact that there was black drag queens uh in
22:44
Speaker 3: this show as where we see it more and more divided,
22:49
Speaker 3: uh as like more recently because we have white drag
22:54
Speaker 3: queens who don't who are racist, like it just you
22:57
Speaker 3: just have these like antics that that have kind of changed,
23:00
Speaker 3: not that they weren't there before, because the divibe has
23:02
Speaker 3: always been there, and that's the conversation in general. But
23:06
Speaker 3: like in the nineties, you could only you see this
23:09
Speaker 3: as like.
23:12
Speaker 1: We see this.
23:12
Speaker 3: It wasn't better necessarily, we just weren't talking about it
23:15
Speaker 3: as much.
23:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of things when you look
23:19
Speaker 2: back at the nineties, extremely toxic. Yeah, we were just
23:23
Speaker 2: sort of accepting.
23:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, the language of it all, like the things that
23:27
Speaker 3: were accepted like, yeah, obviously that whole indigenous like drag
23:31
Speaker 3: show that you're like, what just happened?
23:35
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, well, and going off of your point, there
23:43
Speaker 2: was a part of me that was a little shocked,
23:46
Speaker 2: even though I shouldn't have been about how many they
23:50
Speaker 2: really did run through a lot of conservative issues. Yeah,
23:55
Speaker 2: in this so they definitely have like the racism with
24:00
Speaker 2: the underage black woman who was a sex worker. They
24:06
Speaker 2: talk about abortion.
24:12
Speaker 3: I was like, and then because like Albert comes background, like, no,
24:17
Speaker 3: I still agree with you, even though wait wait wait bro,
24:23
Speaker 3: no you don't, you can't.
24:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, well, Albert was he was doing some interesting
24:32
Speaker 2: things as the conservative uh missed out fire because he
24:40
Speaker 2: did it. He would get in some like zingers, yeah
24:44
Speaker 2: that was against them, and sometimes he would just be like.
24:49
Speaker 3: Just throw everything out, murder all the people's burn it down.
24:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they really there were some things I brought
24:57
Speaker 2: up that it wasn't necessarily shocking, just surprised. I was like, oh, okay, yeah,
25:03
Speaker 2: we were talking about that in the nineties as well. Yes, okay,
25:08
Speaker 2: so that yes, politics and family is a big theme.
25:14
Speaker 2: There are some ideas of like, you know, the morality
25:19
Speaker 2: is political, that whole kind of thing that's happening. Who
25:24
Speaker 2: decides the morality part. Also, they kept saying white wedding,
25:31
Speaker 2: which I was like.
25:34
Speaker 3: A traditional Well, like I think at the end when
25:36
Speaker 3: we see them being Catholic versus Jewish, like the idea
25:40
Speaker 3: that it would be a Jewish wedding goes against everything
25:43
Speaker 3: that conservatives. To be fair, most of the white people
25:48
Speaker 3: that I know, maybe it's today versus nineties, but like
25:51
Speaker 3: even Catholics were not seen as good potential leaders.
25:55
Speaker 1: And I say this not as because like that's how
25:58
Speaker 1: I feel.
25:58
Speaker 3: That's just coming from like a Protestant background, and like
26:01
Speaker 3: they really had some feelings about everyone who wasn't a Protestant,
26:06
Speaker 3: and Catholics was included in that.
26:10
Speaker 2: Gosh, these religious dynamics sauesting Well, there are a lot
26:32
Speaker 2: of tropes in this movie. One is the drama Queen
26:36
Speaker 2: very clearly with Nathan Lane's character kind of on the nose.
26:41
Speaker 2: I did as part of this, Samantha Nos I was
26:45
Speaker 2: torn between two movies, and I watched both of them.
26:51
Speaker 2: This is the one we went with, but I watched
26:53
Speaker 2: The Celluloid Closet, which is about the history of getting
26:58
Speaker 2: representation past censorship in the United States and they kind
27:03
Speaker 2: of go through all of the all of the tropes,
27:06
Speaker 2: and it was interesting because they would bring in different
27:09
Speaker 2: actors who would say like, I've I hated this trope,
27:13
Speaker 2: and some would be like, actually, I felt like this
27:15
Speaker 2: trope did represent something in my life, and the Drama
27:21
Speaker 2: Queen one was one that people were like, yeah, this
27:23
Speaker 2: did feel like represent something in my life. I thought
27:31
Speaker 2: the Pullboy trope with Hanks Aria's character who he was
27:36
Speaker 2: trying to get into the show, but he felt like
27:39
Speaker 2: the very over the top one. He felt like the
27:41
Speaker 2: one saying something next to Nipe and Light. But to me,
27:46
Speaker 2: he was the one that was like, hmm, using gay
27:52
Speaker 2: characters to build straight relationships. This is a big no
27:59
Speaker 2: no in the gay community. But they kind of did
28:03
Speaker 2: this because you know, Armand is pretending he's straight so
28:10
Speaker 2: that his son can marry a woman. You've got Albert
28:19
Speaker 2: pretending he's a conservative woman so this can happen. Uh,
28:26
Speaker 2: And it seems like Albert the implication to me is
28:30
Speaker 2: he's been very much there for val so I thought
28:35
Speaker 2: that was pretty Another thing I don't like about him
28:39
Speaker 2: is that he's kind of sidelined him.
28:43
Speaker 3: But I feel like Calissa Flockhar's character Barbara Barbie Barbara.
28:50
Speaker 3: She was a callousness, but she was making of all
28:52
Speaker 3: these lies about them from Jump, like the Greek diplomat
28:58
Speaker 3: and all these things.
28:58
Speaker 1: You're like, where did that go? I'm from? Did they
29:01
Speaker 1: decide these lies at the beginning? Like what is happening?
29:05
Speaker 3: And then of course, like she comes back with like
29:06
Speaker 3: I would love to be a part of your family.
29:08
Speaker 3: Because she concedes to going away with her father. He's like,
29:11
Speaker 3: don't do this to me. I made your mother cry,
29:14
Speaker 3: and the mother's say, I need someone to like me.
29:19
Speaker 1: So he's someone to pick me, please.
29:22
Speaker 3: But like in that conversation, like she held up this
29:25
Speaker 3: lie from Jump, like it almost like she's the one
29:29
Speaker 3: maybe that pushed to be like we need to get married,
29:32
Speaker 3: so we need to check them, but after the fact,
29:34
Speaker 3: we'll just do this. And like she's obviously the more
29:36
Speaker 3: progressive one because she gets offended by what Albert's saying,
29:40
Speaker 3: as you know, trying to win over the sinner who
29:44
Speaker 3: she does, uh. But at that point she's like, does
29:48
Speaker 3: your mom know that I'm I'm gonna be a career woman?
29:51
Speaker 3: Do and say He's like and violes like, that's not
29:53
Speaker 3: my mom, Remember this.
29:55
Speaker 1: Is a character. She's like, oh yeah, yeah.
29:57
Speaker 3: So like both of those things though, But at the
29:58
Speaker 3: same time, she was more than link to light to
30:00
Speaker 3: our parents about this whole situation, even when she knew
30:03
Speaker 3: they were escaping and trying to go to there. So
30:06
Speaker 3: I feel like she's a bad guy too in this situation.
30:08
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And what I was getting I was getting
30:14
Speaker 2: riled up Samanto when I was watching it, and I
30:17
Speaker 2: kept trying to tell myself, what, they're young, Well, yeah,
30:20
Speaker 2: they're really young.
30:23
Speaker 1: I'm in agreement with the parents on this one. Eighteen
30:25
Speaker 1: and twenty is super young.
30:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, those in the nineties that happened more often, but still,
30:29
Speaker 3: I mean that kind of happens now.
30:30
Speaker 2: I guess yeah, that was my That was the thing
30:36
Speaker 2: I kept telling myself. I was like, Okay, well, they're young,
30:41
Speaker 2: they're in love apparently so.
30:44
Speaker 3: And he does talk about does talk about the fact
30:47
Speaker 3: that when he was a child, his father told him
30:49
Speaker 3: to lie mm hmmm. So it's kind of like it's
30:53
Speaker 3: kind of more of the waves of the world. But
30:54
Speaker 3: at the same time he did kind of set that
30:56
Speaker 3: up mm hmm. And like this is how you survive.
31:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a larger conversation than perhaps this comedy
31:08
Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety six in the Law, but you know,
31:12
Speaker 2: being a gay person at that time, yeah, you would.
31:15
Speaker 2: That would be a lesson you have learned and taken on.
31:18
Speaker 2: Probably one of the other things that I thought that
31:24
Speaker 2: stood out to me when it comes to tropes is
31:28
Speaker 2: that there's this whole idea of very much like how
31:32
Speaker 2: to act like a man, which one is the mother, Yeah,
31:38
Speaker 2: which you know it can differ based on relationships, but
31:43
Speaker 2: that's always been sort of a I don't know that
31:47
Speaker 2: we can just assume that that's the way people feel
31:51
Speaker 2: about themselves or how they see themselves. But it was
31:55
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a nice moment, it was, Yeah,
31:58
Speaker 2: But also same time, maybe check in on that one. Okay,
32:09
Speaker 2: So representation obviously big one for this movie. As I
32:16
Speaker 2: was watching the documentary, they were talking about how important
32:20
Speaker 2: watching movies is and that's how a lot of people
32:24
Speaker 2: learn about sexuality, about gender, and they do it for movies,
32:28
Speaker 2: and so that can be really bad or really good.
32:32
Speaker 2: And there's been a history of mocking gay people, of
32:39
Speaker 2: fearing them, of peeing them. There was a very early
32:43
Speaker 2: establishment of harmful gay stereotypes. One of them is the
32:47
Speaker 2: sissy who is a man without sexuality.
32:49
Speaker 3: That was the.
32:49
Speaker 2: First documented one, because there's no sin like being a woman,
32:58
Speaker 2: as they said, and it teaches you how not only
33:02
Speaker 2: does it teach straight people how gay people acts in
33:07
Speaker 2: the movies, it teaches gay people what to think about themselves.
33:13
Speaker 2: It's also very isolating when you're not represented. And this
33:18
Speaker 2: is where you come in with the looking for it
33:20
Speaker 2: everywhere you're interpreting everything. This is literally been built into
33:26
Speaker 2: movies because of all of the censorship. They kind of
33:29
Speaker 2: had to do it this way. It's sad and hilarious
33:32
Speaker 2: actors who will be like, oh, yeah, that's what we
33:37
Speaker 2: were doing and we were hoping you would pick up
33:39
Speaker 2: on it, whereas some actors were like, oh, I didn't
33:42
Speaker 2: even realize the director didn't put me in on that one.
33:47
Speaker 2: But this did kind of. It was a breeding ground
33:51
Speaker 2: for leading to stereotypes that were over the top. And
33:57
Speaker 2: this is also subtext, subtech. You've got to try to
34:02
Speaker 2: use the subtext to get around the hates code, which
34:05
Speaker 2: we have talked about recently and Catholic groups because these
34:11
Speaker 2: they were looking out. They were like, you cannot have
34:14
Speaker 2: this representation in media. And when it did show up.
34:21
Speaker 2: It was like gay equals villain or evil, something creepy,
34:27
Speaker 2: wrong or off about them. You're happy when they die.
34:32
Speaker 2: Ruined stories. A lot of people, when interviewed about it,
34:36
Speaker 2: were like, it's ruined what I was trying to do.
34:42
Speaker 2: There's also a lot of suicide depression, unhappy gay characters
34:49
Speaker 2: that they're not going to find love, and you know,
34:53
Speaker 2: depiction that it's a sense so it's like horror movie rules,
34:55
Speaker 2: so you die. And there was one quote from the documentary,
35:02
Speaker 2: if we could just learn not to hate ourselves so much.
35:08
Speaker 2: But somebody else said something I thought was really fascinating.
35:12
Speaker 2: Is bad representation better than no representation? But anyway, the
35:20
Speaker 2: timing of this movie, when it came out, it was
35:26
Speaker 2: on the heels of the AIDS epidemic, and there had
35:31
Speaker 2: been all of this tragedy, there had been all of
35:34
Speaker 2: this misery Philadelphia, the movie with Tom Hanks about AIDS
35:40
Speaker 2: where the main character dies at the end. I think
35:45
Speaker 2: it was one of the first big movies, studio movies
35:49
Speaker 2: to tackle a gay storyline in nineteen ninety three somewhere
35:55
Speaker 2: around there. But they were all sad, it was all depressing.
35:59
Speaker 2: This one was notable because it was it was pretty bright,
36:04
Speaker 2: it was pretty happy. It was here's this established couple.
36:09
Speaker 2: We're not really questioning that they should be together, right,
36:14
Speaker 2: we don't have to worry about that. It was a
36:19
Speaker 2: very different take, and I think that's one of the
36:21
Speaker 2: reasons it it really succeeded with audiences and critics because
36:29
Speaker 2: it was just a first time for a lot of
36:32
Speaker 2: people that they were seeing a happy gay couple, especially
36:38
Speaker 2: after all that misery.
36:40
Speaker 3: Right, And I think like one of the things I noticed,
36:42
Speaker 3: especially towards the end, I know that it's one of
36:44
Speaker 3: those big happy numbers, but having like the club is
36:47
Speaker 3: a success, people have fun, love being a part of it,
36:51
Speaker 3: come to see the shows like that type of level
36:55
Speaker 3: of you know, they are established. You know it's loved
36:58
Speaker 3: and the beloved into the community obviously with the way
37:01
Speaker 3: it's filled. And then like even when they all come
37:04
Speaker 3: down as a celebration as one big family, which you
37:07
Speaker 3: do see them being a family together, all the performers
37:10
Speaker 3: and all the people on the backstage, Like it's really
37:13
Speaker 3: cute how they like rally they're like, hey, we got
37:15
Speaker 3: to do this, and they're like, okay, we're in. Like
37:17
Speaker 3: even with that, you see the conservative couple, the the
37:20
Speaker 3: you know, the the daughter, all of them coming through
37:24
Speaker 3: having fun. They're actually having Yes, they're nervous, but you
37:27
Speaker 3: see Gene Hackman like singing and dancing and having fun
37:30
Speaker 3: dancing with people. You see the wife dancing with someone,
37:33
Speaker 3: you know, like having like they're like, I've never danced
37:35
Speaker 3: with a man before. She's like, oh, you know, all
37:37
Speaker 3: those things, pretending to be a drag wingers all and
37:40
Speaker 3: having a good time doing that. It felt like a
37:43
Speaker 3: celebration instead of some kind of downfall or some kind
37:46
Speaker 3: of protests or like you didn't see any ugly things
37:50
Speaker 3: to this connections that you saw good, celebratory fun that
37:54
Speaker 3: everybody couldn't help but be swept up in.
37:57
Speaker 1: And it felt different as well.
37:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it really did. And it's very like bright,
38:06
Speaker 2: just all the colors and everything, the music. It's very
38:10
Speaker 2: in your face, but also kind of settled. I liked
38:15
Speaker 2: how Armand and Albert were kind of a settled, older couple.
38:22
Speaker 2: But anyway, here's the quote from the BBC. Within the
38:26
Speaker 2: context of mid nineteen nineties Hollywood, the film was also
38:30
Speaker 2: a radical outlier that held particular significance for the LGBTQ
38:34
Speaker 2: plus community. As doctor Matthew Jones, reader and Cinema Audiences
38:39
Speaker 2: and Reception at de Montfort University puts it, it helped
38:43
Speaker 2: an audience traumatized by a decade of living day to
38:46
Speaker 2: day with the threat of disease and death to laugh again. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
38:52
Speaker 2: I'm glad we watched it.
38:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:55
Speaker 3: I also want to talk about that scene where we
38:58
Speaker 3: do see Albert going through the market and talking to
39:00
Speaker 3: the people like everybody knows him, and the friendliness, like
39:05
Speaker 3: you see these scenes oftentimes with heterosexual couples going through
39:08
Speaker 3: the market having the best time whatever, and to be
39:10
Speaker 3: able to translate that for someone who is a big
39:14
Speaker 3: icon in their community as like a drag queen or
39:17
Speaker 3: but also like a gay person coming through and during
39:21
Speaker 3: this time and just finding home like obviously this is
39:25
Speaker 3: his home. It was also a nice turn to see
39:27
Speaker 3: as well.
39:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was. And in that in that documentary
39:32
Speaker 2: I mentioned a lot of the people interviewed mentioned stuff
39:35
Speaker 2: like that of like just seeing something as on paper
39:41
Speaker 2: maybe simple as that is so powerful because you're that
39:46
Speaker 2: means you're accepted and loved and you have community.
39:50
Speaker 1: Exactly, like that's that community.
39:52
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well, listeners, we you would love to hear
39:58
Speaker 2: from you. We would love to hear your thoughts and
40:00
Speaker 2: suggestions on what we should do next, what our next
40:04
Speaker 2: movie should be, Happy, Pride, what you're doing. You can
40:10
Speaker 2: email us at Hello at Stuffwenever Told You dot com.
40:13
Speaker 2: You can find us on Blue Sky at moms a podcast,
40:16
Speaker 2: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Never Told You.
40:19
Speaker 2: We're also on YouTube. We have some merchandise, a common bureau,
40:21
Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you
40:23
Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer
40:25
Speaker 2: Casey and our executive Rusa Maya.
40:28
Speaker 1: Thank you.
40:28
Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening Someffe Never Told You to
40:31
Speaker 2: production by heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
40:33
Speaker 2: you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
40:35
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.