Latest / The You Project / #1726 Does Sugar (Actually) Cause ADHD - David Gillespie

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#1726 Does Sugar (Actually) Cause ADHD - David Gillespie · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I get a team.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: It's Harps, it's Gilasper's, it's cook, it's us, it's the
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: bloody you project TIFFs just over there at typ Central,
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: drinking her own body weight in protein shaken. She gave
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: David and Either brief That wouldn't have been a very
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: pleasant experience for any of us if we didn't let
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: her consume some calories before we press the go button.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: You do have you do have a very short like
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: there's a very short timeline between when you go, oh,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: I think, I'm I'm hungry and now I'm a complete
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: fucking lunatic and I want to punch someone.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: That's not a big gap.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Is it.
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  Speaker 3: When I worked in hospitality all those years ago, we
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: used to put an order into the kitchen for food,
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: and then when we went on break, someone would come
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: and cover us. If my food came out, was placed
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: in front of me, and a customer walked in, I
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: can't tell you the level of self control and emotional
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: turmoil it took me to just keep that in and
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: small and serve the people that were standing between me
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: and my lunch items.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: It seems like the spiritual revolution that was had in
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: India is long gone. I don't want to point out,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: but it just seems like that might be a thing
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: of the past.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: As long as I've a bit of food in my belly,
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: I'm good.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: So I don't think you can have like caveats on
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: your spell. It's long as except when I'm punching people
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: in the face. Then I'm pretty much the deli lama.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Oh well, oh well, are you a big eater?
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Gillspoh not particularly, No, just normally I think I don't
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: think I have Chiff's appetite, and I certainly don't have.
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: So you've met my son James. He spends more time
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: in the gym than I suspect you do, so he
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: like like there's no tomorrow. But I certainly don't eat
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: that much.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: My days of eating what I just want to eat
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: whenever I want to eat their long gone pity.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: They were good times, but it didn't work. How well.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: The Moniker Jumbo All through school I gave it a
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: good crack, though I could have eaten for Australia. At
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: one stage I was world class, world class glutton. Speaking
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: of all things food, let's talk about sugar, and let's
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: talk about whether or not sugar might be responsible for
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: ADHD in kids. Where did that, Where did that research
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: come from, or where did this idea come from?
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Oh? Look, it's been around for a long time, probably
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  Speaker 4: since the seventies. Really, there were a few early studies
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: in the seventies that suggested that if you gave kids sugar,
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: they'd start climbing the walls and bouncing off the ceiling
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: fans and things like that, and that sort of caught
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: on because it matches what a lot of parents will
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: tell you. I mean, most friends will say, oh, yeah,
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: you can't. You can't give little Tristan, you know, a
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: can of full strength coke or you're you know, you'll
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: be cleaning up the place for the next month, you know.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: And and that's certainly how most people perceive it. They say, right, sugar,
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: give kids sugar. There they suddenly become hyper And so
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: it wasn't too far to draw the bow from there
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: and say, okay, well then, since hyperactivity and ADHD pretty
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: much mean the same thing to a lot of people,
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: obviously sugar causes ADHD. So that it's been around for
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: a while, it's based more on myth than science, and
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: when they eventually did get around to doing the science
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: on this, and you can imagine it's not a high priority.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: You know, you're trying to kill cancer, and you know
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: all that sort of stuff. Finding out whether or not
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: sugar makes kids crazy when everyone already knows the answer
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: is not a high priority for funding. But when they
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: actually eventually did do the science, they found a couple
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: of things. Is that when they did placebo controlled trials
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: where you know, they were feeding kids things that were
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: sugar free, as you know, given sweetness and so on,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: rather than sugar, and cross matching those against kids who
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: were being given sugar, there was no discernible difference in
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: their behavior. The interesting thing was that if you told
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: the parents of either group that their child their group
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: was the one consuming the sugar, they would immediately spot
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: the signs of hyperactivity if they thought their child had
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  Speaker 4: been given sugar. So we're entirely suggestible. And the kids
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: themselves too, if you told them that they were given sugar,
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  Speaker 4: they would often act more hyperactive than if they weren't.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: So it was really more about saying, okay, people believe this.
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: They deeply believe this, parents included, and they believe it
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: to the extent that if you do studies on this
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  Speaker 4: and tell people the wrong piece of information, they believe
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: it anyway and start seeing what they believe. So I
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: guess it's more of a commentary on a sort of
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: a placebo effect than anything else.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: That's so interesting because it is it's like I was
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: going to say, it's like plus ebo ADHD you know,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: And we've we've spoken before about plus ebos and no
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: cibos And we had a I don't know if I've
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: ever told you this, we had a dude on called
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Professor Jeffrey Reddicker from Harvard Medical School.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Who's a a.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Like a PhD research and plus a doctor, plus a psychiatrist.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And yeah, he talks about you know this stuff a lot.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Obviously talks from a healer. Well not obviously because I
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: haven't told you this, but he talks generally from a
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: healing and a health point of view.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: But it is pretty amazing.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: What manifests based on what we think think is happening
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: rather than what is actually happening.
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: Well, we're designed. Evolution has designed us to recognize patterns.
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  Speaker 4: Patterns keep us alive. Spotting a pattern in a series
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  Speaker 4: of unrelated events is how we predict the behavior of
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  Speaker 4: other humans, and the behavior of animals and danger all around,
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: and so we are optimized for pattern recognition, and often
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: we can be convinced that a pattern exists where there
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: is no pattern. So, you know, the classic example of
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: you know, you might spot you might notice that ice
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  Speaker 4: cream sales go up at exactly the same rate and
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: at the same time as shark attacks, and you'll say, obviously,
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: obviously ice cream causes shark attacks or shark attack calls
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: ice cream consumption. Clearly that's not the case, and that's
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: one of the classic examples given for correlation does an
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: equal causation. But what often can be the case is
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: that something else is causing both, so you know, and
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: in that case, it might be that when the temperature
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  Speaker 4: goes up, people buy more ice cream and people swim more,
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  Speaker 4: so there's more shark attacks and more ice cream consumption.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: But obviously the shark attacks are not causing the ice
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: cream consumption, and vice versa. But we' spot those patterns
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: and we start to attribute, meaning, I mean, this is
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: all you studied this for years, Greig, I mean, this
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: is what psychology is. It's spotting patterns and making up
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: bs stories about them.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: You can it's okay, no, no, I can't.
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: I don't want to offend Tiff. You know, she's easily offendedive, so.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Speaking offensive.
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  Speaker 2: I had a lady who's been following me for ten
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: years who sent me a message the other day, totally
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: within her rights and full respect for me, and she said,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: you used the sea the sea word. And apparently I
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: was on the pod with two ladies, so Tiff must
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: have been one of them, and she said, I can't
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  Speaker 2: follow you anymore. Okay, okay, that's not the first time.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: You must to me the other episodes, but it is.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: Here's an interesting factory about that word. So I spent
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: I lived in Germany for a while as an exchangion,
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  Speaker 4: and there's a word. The word for that in German
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  Speaker 4: is so rarely used that most women don't know it.
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  Speaker 4: So if you were to use it, you wouldn't offend
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  Speaker 4: most of the women around because they wouldn't know what
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: you're talking about. So it's that extreme a rarity to
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  Speaker 4: use that word.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and I think also, and I'm not I'm not
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  Speaker 2: saying it's okay everyone, and I'm not justifying, and I
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  Speaker 2: don't use it very often, but it's like when I
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: say that word, I'm not talking about anyone's anatomy. It's
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: just I'm talking about something else, you know. But it's like, well,
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  Speaker 2: I get it, I get it anyway.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it's like the word moist.
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  Speaker 3: You probably that's way more offensive.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: What is that?
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  Speaker 2: It's funny that word because there's a show called eight
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: out of Ten Cats does count down?
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  Speaker 1: Have you ever seen that show?
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Yes?
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  Speaker 1: And so the.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Lady who is the forget what's her actual proper title,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: but anyway, she does all the words.
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  Speaker 1: She's a wordsmith.
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  Speaker 4: She's the dictionary lady.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the dictionary lady.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: She she cannot cope with that word.
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: A lot of people can't cope with that word. What's
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: the trigger for you get into it?
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  Speaker 2: No?
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  Speaker 4: All right, I just looking at TIFF's face, I get
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  Speaker 4: the feeling she doesn't want to talk about it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, well without saying anything inappropriate. Is it just that
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  Speaker 1: it what to me? It doesn't do any It's like
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  Speaker 1: it could be a cake, a moist cake.
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  Speaker 3: I see. But I think it's even just the sound
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  Speaker 3: of the word is like the I don't know, I
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  Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know, but stop it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, but it rhymes with hoist and joist and like
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  Speaker 2: it's not if I say I'm going to hoist a
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  Speaker 2: bag over my shoulder, you're not cringing. But if I
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: say I'm going to hoist a moist bag, I.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: Know what is that?
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  Speaker 3: Why it does that? But it's just.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: There's probably some BS psychological explanation for it.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Just like there is.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I was talking, as I told you, I know we've
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: gone off track, but fuck it is there a track.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: We will get back to this because this has an
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: interesting ending, but we will get back to it, all right, Yeah,
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: go on going.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: I was doing a talk today, as I told you before,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I won't say the organization, big organization, and that A
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: lady was asking me some questions about, you know, just
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: some psych.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Stuff and I went look and it used you sprung
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: to mind.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Halfway through a corporate presentation, I thought to you, and
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I went to be honest, psychology is one of the
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: one of the crappier sciences.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: You know, It's not it's exactly it's not an exact.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: Science in the sense that astrology is a science. Yeah,
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: come on, come on, all.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Right, So what.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Does sugar cause ADHD? It appears not, so what is
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: the insight to come out of this article.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: Well, it appears that it actually does, but not in
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: the way that people think it does. So the reality
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  Speaker 4: is that if you give a genuinely ADHD person sugar,
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: it's likely to calm them down, not make them more excited.
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  Speaker 4: So remembering what ADHD actually is, it's a state of
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: the brain, a chemical state of the brain which is
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: created by addiction or stress or both where you become
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: dopamine tolerant. And what that means is that you need
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: more dopamine to get the same result as a normal person.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: And so if someone is ADHD, it means that most
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: of the time they do not have an enough dopamine
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: to properly focus because their brain has become dopamine tolerance,
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: so they need more of it than the average person.
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: So most of the time they don't have enough. So
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: the solution to that is ADHD drugs, which are stimulants
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: in much the same way that cocaine is a stimulant
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: or nicotine is a stimulant. You give that to a
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  Speaker 4: person with ADHD, it gives them a spike of dopamine.
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: It allows them to focus in that suddenly they have
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: enough dopamine to hit that threshold. The rest of us
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: have all the time, and then they can focus. And
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: people with ADHD tell you that when they take those drugs,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: it allows them to feel normal. Suddenly their brain isn't
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: going all over the place at a million miles an hour.
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: They can just focus on the things they need to
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: focus on and get stuff done. And when they first
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: accidentally notice that this is the way those drugs worked,
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: they believed it to be a miracle because they gave
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: it to kids who were ADHD because they were from
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: an extremely stressful environment. But he ridden during the depression
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: in the United States, and kids that couldn't focus and
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: were a complete disaster in the classroom suddenly could get
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: a lot done and did really, really well. So that's
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: what the drugs do. But it's also what any addictive
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: substance does. And sugar is an addictive substance that produces
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: a dopamine spike. So giving a person who has ADHD
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: something like sugar should actually help them focus more than
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: if you didn't give it to them. So paradoxically, in
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: the immediate thing giving them sugar actually helps them. The
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: paradox there is that the thing that causes them to
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: not be able to focus in the first place is
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: getting too much stimulation, and so what you're actually doing
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: is building in a long term hardening of that so
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: that the person is actually worse when it comes to
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: the long term state of their brain in that that
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: extra hit of dopamine stimulation makes them more dopamine tolerant
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: for the next time, so it becomes harder and harder
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: and harder for them to feel normal from a hit
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: of dopamine. So they've observed this in the drugs for
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: a long time, which is that you can't just give
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: people ADHD medication for the rest of their lives. Eventually
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: they become get to the point where they're tolerant of it,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: and the same thing would happen here. So what that
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: means coming back to that does sugar give you ADHD
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: story is yes, it does, but not immediately. Doesn't make
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: a kid act hyperactively, which is why when the studies
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: were done properly, there was no real obvious difference between
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: the kids given the sugar and the ones not except
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: when you told the parents that they'd been given sugar.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: So that's why you don't see it acutely in those studies,
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: which is all they ever studied. But if look at
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: the mechanics of it, the reality is that someone on
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: a diet, a high sugar diet, is more likely to
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: have ADHD than someone who isn't, simply because they're continuously
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: receiving stimulation from the sugar.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: So I know you're this is none of this is advice, anyone.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: None of this is medical advice. This is just two
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: blokes and tiff chatting periodically. So when somebody is put
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: on meds for ADHD and they build a tolerance, what
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: typically happens. Do they just up the dose? Do they
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: take them off it for a while, do they change
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: the medication?
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: Initially? They initially they up the dose and then eventually
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: they stop giving it to them. So it's and this
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: is the same with many stimula and not don't just
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: forget about ADHD, but any anything where a person is
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: being give a stimulating drug. So for example, a method
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: owned programs where people are being given a stimulant to
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: try and bring them off something like heroin. Eventually they
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: become tolerant of it and it loses its effectiveness. And
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: that's because the mechanism of addiction is that tolerance is
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: the more you the more hits you get. The more
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: you want, the more tolerant you become.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: I have a story to telling them to be careful
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: how I tell, But I think I created an addict,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: not even being funny. So I've shared on this show
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: that every now and then, probably once a month, I
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: will have a a nicorette. A two milligram nicorette tastes
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: exactly like chewing gum. Right, and a friend of mine,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: we were talking about it and I told them, you know,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: and They're like, I'm going to give it a go.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, well I go unless you I go.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Not recommending Anyway, they did it, and they rang me
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: to dude. He's like, oh my god, how good is this.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: He goes, I've got so like, I'm so focused, blah
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: blah blah. Again everyone not a recommendation. And then I
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: saw him about three weeks ago and he goes, I
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: need to stop using nicorette now. I have maybe one
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: two milligram a month, not even that now, and it
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: just kind of it's like a new tropick. It just
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: kind of cranks up my brain a bit. It's like
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: having a strong coffee. Maybe he's having ten a day,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: ten a day. Yeah, he's like, if I take one,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: it doesn't do anything. I've got to take two or
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: three at a time. And he does that three or
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: four times a day.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: That and that is exactly the tolerance that we're talking about.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you've got to stop. You've got to stop.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what, Like, I never told him to it,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: even when he said I'm going to give it a go,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I said, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't introduce something
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: you don't need. And anyway, Yeah, I feel bad. But yeah,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: he's like, he used to take one and it was amazing,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and now two or three just begins to do something.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: But then he's got to depending on his day, he's
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: got to light up again.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So that's a beautiful example of what we've been
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: talking about, which is the brain adjusts to that, to
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: that addictive substance infusion, which is a nicotine. It's the
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: addictive part of cigarettes, and the brain adjusts to that
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: by moving up a marker in the brain called delta
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: foss B that says how much don't mean you need
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: to get an effect. So your one a month is
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: not having any effect at all because it takes you know, it. Sure,
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: it bumps it up, but then decays down again by
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: the time you know you have another one. But if
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: you're having one a day and then that turns into
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: two a day, or three a day, or four day
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: or ten a day, then what you're doing is pushing
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: that up higher and higher and higher and higher to
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: the point where you are an addict, and stopping doing
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: it is going to be extremely difficult because the cravings
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: will be very intense. You probably don't experience serious cravings
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: for your nicorette because it sounds more like it's gotten
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: into the realm of habit rather than by a chemical craving.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: So you just think, oh, I wouldn't mind this because
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: I'll feel better, And as long as it stays at
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: that low level, it probably isn't having any real effect
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: on the addictive mechanism. And it's the same thing goes
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: here with sugar. So if we're looking at sugar's say
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: the only sugar you know little Tristan God was once
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: a year at his birthday party, then it's probably having
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: no serious effect on him. But if the load he's
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: getting at the birthday party is just twice as much
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: as he gets every other day, of the year, which
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: is very likely in Australia today because the average Australian
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: is consuming about forty tea spoons of sugar a day.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: And you know, as I said to you before, most
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: people when I say that say, well, you know TIFFs
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: have in mind because I'm not, you know, consuming forty
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: tea spoons of sugar. No way, I don't even add
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: sugar to my tea. But the reality is, have a
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: bowl of nutri grain in the morning and a glass
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: of orange juice. You're at twenty teaspoons before you push
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: back from breakfast, let alone go anywhere near a Mars
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: burro or a coke. Yes, so if a kid is
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: consuming forty teaspoons of sugar a day, then they are
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: definitely on a pathway that would rewire their brain for addiction.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: I think when you save forty teaspoons, I think people
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: they they don't understand how much sugar is in how
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: many foods that you would not think had a lot
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: of sugar, right, And so we're not talking about teaspoons
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: of sugar, well the equivalent, but yeah, this is not
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: necessarily added sugar.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: This is just high sugar foods.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: That and what is interesting about this, and we've spoken
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: about the lack of credibility and value of these ticks,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: these Foundation ticks that gets some kind of fucking nutritional
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: seal of approval from some pretend organization that gets paid.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Is that, like a lot of those you know, recommended
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: and endorsed products are super high and sugar also.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean there was for a very long
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: time there, I mean a tip don't remember this because
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: it happened, you know, more than a decade ago when
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: she was a little girl, But Craig, you might remember it,
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: maybe just you might remember. The Heart Foundation used to
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: give ticks to McDonald's.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: So McDonald's was proudly displaying its Heart Foundation tick menu,
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: and many of the things on that tick menu had
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: really shockingly high levels of sugar in them. And when
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: I asked the Heart Foundation how that could possibly be
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: the case, the answer I got back was that sugar
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: was not part of what they measured as part of
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: their tick program. So the product could in fact be
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: a bag of sugar. And because it had no other
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: particularly fat, which was a thing they're so concerned with him,
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: Because it had no fat in it, it deserved a
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: Heart Foundation tick. Now I don't think any manufacturer everywhere ever,
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: went to the point of getting a Heart Foundation tick
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: on a bag of marshmallows. But they could have, because
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: if you looked at the criteria they were using, sugar
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: didn't matter, and there's very little else in a bag
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: of marshmallows, so you could have got the tick.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: So ridiculous that there's not even in an organization like
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: the Heart Foundation, you go, surely there's one employee that
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: is at least smart enough to go, hey, fellas or
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: ladies or whatever it is, has anyone thought this through?
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: But it wasn't obvious. So that's the interesting thing you
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: had to ask. There was nowhere anywhere where they were
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: publishing how they calculated whether or not a food received
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: a tick. And the only reason I asked is I
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: noticed that foods that just were mind blowing in him
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: out of sugar. Like there was one food sold at
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: the time called roll ups or something so like a
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: compressed strip of fruit that you're supposed to put in
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: your kids lunch box and a little snack for them,
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: and it's all fruits, so it must be good. Was
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: seventy eight percent sugar had a Heart Foundation tick? So
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: mum in the supermarket. I was looking at it and say, oh,
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: what'll I give you a little jeremy for school lunch?
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: This thing here, it's all fruit and it's got a
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: heart foundation. Tick must be okay. But you couldn't have
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: given him that much sugar, even if you'd given him
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: a diet of pure Mars bars.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: I love.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I remember now that they're just diabetes in a wrapper
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and rotten teeth. I remember one of my clients one
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: hundred years ago used to her go to was dried
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: apricots and nuts, and I'm like, who, And so I
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: got her in my office and I looked up. I said, anyway,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: the bottom line is one hundred grams of this is memory,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: So I think it's, if not exact, very close. One
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: hundred grams of fresh apricot forty calories, one hundred grams
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: of dried apricot two hundred and forty calories, so six
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: times the calories. And I would think six times give
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: or take the sugar, because all it's been taken.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Out is the water, so you just got left sugar.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, you look at those, you know, the little
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: little boxes of sultanas that they give kids at school.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: So if you were to expand them back to their
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: original grapiness, it's about half a kilo of grapes. Yes, Now,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: no kid is going to be able to sit down,
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: you know, and knock over half a kilo of grapes
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: and then eat their little lunch. But those sultanas absolutely,
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: and so it's a really really fast way to give
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: a kid a lot of sugar.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: And you know the other thing about sultanas that I
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: remember reading, I don't know if it's still the same
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: tip you could check, but on the side of a box,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: the rest the ingredients said grapes and vegetable oil. They're
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: soaked in oil.
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: I'm right.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: So we're putting sugar in oil.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Yep, sugar in seed oil, which is a whole level
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: of danger. So even if it wasn't for the sugar,
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: you wouldn't want to eat it.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And it's like, not only is this shit terrible for you,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: people actually think it's a great choice. It's like, I'm
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: a responsible parent, I'm giving my kids sultanas for lunch.
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: But why do they think that? Because the Heart Foundation's
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: got to tick on the thing.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, it's like I just think one
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of the simplest things that mums and dads can do.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm not not hating on anyone or judging, but
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: just learn how to read food labels, like learn how
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: to understand like the ingredients. If the number one ingredient
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: is sugar, then that's what most of it's made of.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Like it goes in order of volume from first thing
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: to last thing on the list. And you know, read
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the tiny box on the back with the breakdown of
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: per hundred grams sodium and sugar and protein and all
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: the other stuff, because you can save yourself.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: A lot of heartache. But remember on the front, it's
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: it's not information. The front is an ad. It's not information.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: It's just trying to get you to buy whatever it
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: is they're trying to sell.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, you see that a lot with olive
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: oil products. So you'll particularly saying margarines. You'll see the
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: product described as olive oil margarine or something like that
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: on the the front of the thing. You turn it
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: over and read the label, you'll see whilst there is
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: some olive oil in there for flavoring purposes, you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: most of the fat in that comes from something like
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: sunflower oil or canola oil. Yeah, just like every other Margarine.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: We spoke on this show once a year ago. I
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: took a photo and I posted it. I was trying
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: to get an on your recommendation. I thank you very much.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I actually got real mayo made with eggs, and that's
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: probably precipitated that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: But I was at the supermarket.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I was trying to find mayo that's actually mayo, not
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: made out of vegetable oil or seed oil with that
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: or bullshit. Yeah no, I didn't. You told me. You
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: told me what to get. And what's amazing is normal
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: mas like four or five bucks a jar. The real
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: shit's like twenty and I gladly pay the twenty, right,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and it said whole egg mayonnaise.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, hidy up. And then I looked it's ninety.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Seven percent not egg, that's right, not egg, Like ninety
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: seven percent of what's in this jar is not egg.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: And when you look at the front, there's a picture
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: of an egg and it's got whole egg mayonnaise. So
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: you think, oh, the whole thing's made of egg.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: No, well, it probably shouldn't be called mayonnaise anyway, because mayonnaise,
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: you know, is based on an actual traditional recipe which
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: developed by the French and consists of olive oil and
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: an egg. It's an emulsion. So calling anything that isn't
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: made that way mayonnaise, I think is a bit out there. Anyway,
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: whether it's whole egg or not, it should be labeled
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: imitation mayonnaise.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just jumping back quickly.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I know we've got to let you go, but tif
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: do you remember you've had Mick Call on your show, right.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: This, but we were talking about, you know how you
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: were talking, David, about people who don't produce as much
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: dopamine as other people and so they've got to, you know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: take something to kind reached their normal or what is.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: So we've had this guy in a bunch, his name's
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: mickol and his in recovery addict alcoholic. He talks about
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: this freely and openly, spent lots of time in the
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Big House, you know, very interesting life blah blah blah.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: And he told his story on this show and I'm
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: sure yours, tiff, where when he started drinking at twelve, right,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and the first thing he drank was port and he
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: said it was fucking disgusting. But the moment that I
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: started that he started to get drunk, he's like, oh
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: my god, life is good. And it's like, I think
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: he said something like, but the first time in my life,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I felt normal, Like the anxiety went away, all of
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: these symptoms in inverted commas went away. And then he
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: basically started drinking whenever and wherever he could at twelve,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: not because he enjoyed the drinking, but because he enjoyed
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: how it made him feel, and it was like for
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: him an escape, you know.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: So most addicts will give you that answer if you
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: ask them. Most addicts. If you say to an addict,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: you know, why do you keep doing this when it
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: is causing you harm? And I'm talking about anything, whether
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: it's smoking or alcohol or opioids, yeah, and they will say,
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: I don't want to keep doing it, but I feel
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: normal when I do do it. You ask any smoker,
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: why do you smoke? You know it's doing terrible things,
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: as photos all over the box telling you all awful
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: things it's doing to you. Why do you smoke? And
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: they will say, I don't want to smoke, and I
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: know all that stuff, but the only way I can
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: feel normal is when I'm smoking, And that's exactly the
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: effect we're talking about, where where in order to get
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: the required dopamine hit, you have to be doing going
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: through an addictive behavior. So it's about feeling normal, and
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: that's really really hard to stop, really really hard to
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: ask someone to stop doing the one thing that makes
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: them feel normal. Now, alcohol is the most insidious of
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: them all, and we'll talk about it some other time
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: because it actually has a mechanism of action that impairs
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: your ability to feel normal for life. So even when
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: you stop drinking, which is something that most other drugs
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: don't do. But let's get into that some other time,
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: there's a bit of detail in it.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, cool, all right mate, We appreciate you will say goodbye.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Heare but as always fascinating and tif thank god you
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: had some calories before we started.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: I know you're welcome.