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Christian Leadership & Organizational Culture: How to Build Trust, Alignment, and High-Performing Teams with Phil Begley · Profitable Christian Business

• 0:00
  Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Profit with Christian Business.
• 0:04
  I'm your host, let me start over, further recording.
• 0:07
  Five, four, three, two, one.
• 0:10
  Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Profit with Christian Business.
• 0:13
  I'm your host Doug Greathouse and I am so, so pleased to have my guest Phil Begley with me today.
• 0:20
  Today's conversation is about something every leader wants, but very few truly achieve.
• 0:24
  Alignment, alignment between leadership, culture, performance and faith.
• 0:29
  My guest today is Phil Begley, founder of Riverstone Organizational Advisors and a man who has spent over four decades studying, teaching and living out leadership at the highest
• 0:37
  levels.
• 0:38
  Phil's journey is incredible.
• 0:39
  He's a graduate of the U.S.
• 0:40
  Naval Academy, served 24 years in the military as a commander, taught leadership at the Citadel, and went on to work with some of most respected organizations in the world,
• 0:49
  companies like Michelin, BMW, Siemens and Volvo.
• 0:52
  But what makes this conversation different is that Phil's professional journey and his faith journey have become one.
• 0:59
  He spent years helping leaders and organizations align their team, improve performance and build cultures that actually work while also living out a deep and authentic faith.
• 1:08
  And what you'll hear in this episode is the perspective of someone who understands that leadership isn't just about results.
• 1:13
  It's about character, stewardship and impact.
• 1:16
  We'll talk about what healthy cultures actually look like inside an organization, why so many teams struggle with alignment, the leadership principles that stand the test of time
• 1:24
  and how faith shapes the way we lead and serve others.
• 1:27
  If you're a Christian entrepreneur or leader who wants to build something that lasts, this conversation will challenge and encourage you.
• 1:33
  Phil, welcome to the Parkland Christian Business Podcast.
• 1:36
  Thanks, Doug.
• 1:37
  I need to meet that guy you just introduced.
• 1:39
  Well, I think I'm looking at him.
• 1:43
  Well, uh it is great.
• 1:46
  Is there anything we need to add to that intro?
• 1:48
  Anything that I didn't uncover?
• 1:50
  Oh no, no, don't think it's...
• 1:52
  I think it's full.
• 1:54
  Nice, nice.
• 1:55
  So no time doing stunts for movie stars or anything like that.
• 1:59
  uh So let's dive in real quick.
• 2:05
  So you're part of the Naval Academy.
• 2:08
  So you went from Naval Academy to corporate leadership to consulting.
• 2:11
  If you had to pick a season in your life that shaped you the most, which one would it be?
• 2:16
  Well, it's hard to go to one of the service academies and not say that's the foundation of the rest of your life.
• 2:25
  I was 18 years old and four weeks right out of high school and all of sudden I'm in Annapolis and from day one, it's about shaping leaders.
• 2:37
  And there's a process there and the process has proven itself over time.
• 2:41
  And I'm just a product of that process.
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  I still honestly, I still think about the academy.
• 2:48
  For instance, I recently taught extreme ownership uh study of the book and the things that they taught in extreme ownership are the exact same things we were taught plebeia at the
• 2:59
  Naval Academy.
• 3:00
  So.
• 3:02
  So if you're a parent of a young man, ah I think Phil would highly recommend going through one of the service academies.
• 3:11
  Yeah, or daughter too.
• 3:13
  Women are celebrating, believe it or not, women are celebrating their 50th year at the Service Academies this year.
• 3:19
  Wow, that's amazing, nice.
• 3:22
  I was actually in the last little male class and the class after us had females in their class and they've been there and serving well and there have been some four star admirals
• 3:34
  and generals that have graduated from the service academy.
• 3:36
  uh you know, uh we need both genders these days to fill all the requirements the military has.
• 3:47
  Just a side note, just because it's in Charleston and I used to live there, the Citadel, I remember there was a woman that I used to work with.
• 3:55
  She was one of the first female graduates of the Citadel, if I remember correctly.
• 4:01
  So did the Citadel change after the Naval Academy did?
• 4:05
  Yes, as a matter of fact, I was teaching at the Citadel when the state legislature was talking about it and I was actually asked to speak before one of the committees that was
• 4:19
  considering it because of that kind of unique perspective I had from being a Naval Academy graduate and being on faculty at the Citadel.
• 4:27
  So that was interesting for me, to say the least.
• 4:32
  Well, let's pivot a little bit to some of the organizations you've worked with, like BMW, Michelin, and Siemens.
• 4:38
  What's something about those high-performing organizations that might surprise people?
• 4:43
  um What probably would not surprise people is the structure that they have.
• 4:48
  Because obviously you have to have structure and a good structure and a structure that is in processes that work to be able to do something that complicated like build a high
• 5:03
  performance car.
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  I think what would surprise people is
• 5:07
  The nuts and bolts of leading in such an organization are exactly the same as if you're leading a five person organization because leadership is leadership.
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  You a of people early in my consulting career would say, well, you know, you understand military leadership, but you don't really understand leadership in the real world.
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  I said, no, people are people.
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  Sailors were people too.
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  And you know, we lead people and therefore the
• 5:34
  Basics of leadership are the same regardless of the organization you work in.
• 5:38
  Well, I love this because I want to dive here because there's something that people say, it might not directly tied to leadership and you can kind of point out the differences
• 5:46
  maybe, but they often say what got you to this stage won't get you to the next stage, right?
• 5:52
  So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of leadership?
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  there an element to that?
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  Because yes, there is a foundation, but is there things you need to develop?
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  Yes.
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  um There are, when you lead at the first level, like a first line supervisor in a plant, they're directly involved with leading the people that are actually executing.
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  When you get to the next level, they're leading people who are leading people who are really doing the value added work.
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  So leading leaders is different than leading troops, if you will.
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  And that's the step.
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  um
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  that is most difficult for people.
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  I actually think that first step to leading leaders and other people who are supervising and managing, rather than leading the people directly doing the work, is difficult for
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  some because they're good at telling people what to do, but they're not good at directing and helping and coaching others to direct people what to do.
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  quite frankly, there's some people who just don't like leading leaders.
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  I actually preferred, I liked leading sailors better than being a...
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  department head in the Navy and leading other officers.
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  It was more fulfilling for me.
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  But that doesn't mean I wasn't good at it.
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  If I had my druthers, I would have led sailors my entire career in the Navy.
• 7:12
  Wow.
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  So after decades of leadership, consulting, and ministry, is there anything about leadership that you believe today that you didn't believe 20 or 30 years ago?
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  um I think I really do believe that anybody can lead.
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  um I used to think that some people were born to be leaders.
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  think that some people are born with the attributes to be, to make it easier to become a leader.
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  But early on in uh my consulting practice, I decided we need to define leadership because we're going to teach, you know, if you get 50 people in a room, 50 people are going to
• 7:50
  define leadership differently.
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  So our definition is leadership is the process by which the best in us becomes the best from us.
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  So um when I'm working on making myself the best version of myself, I'm exercising personal leadership.
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  When I'm coming alongside my teammate and helping them be better at what they do or just collaborating with them, I'm exercising leadership of others.
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  When I'm working on putting systems and structures and processes in an organization that facilitate us,
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  the best coming from us, then I'm exercising organizational leadership.
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  So um that definition works.
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  m It isn't positional.
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  It's really process oriented because I really do believe people and leaders are formed over time.
• 8:39
  wisdom right it's it
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  there's a...
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  I actually took a shot at consulting after my time at Michelin, because I worked at Michelin for five years, and I was told by more than one person I didn't have enough gray
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  hair.
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  So now I equate gray hair to wisdom.
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  and they were, you know what, they were right.
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  Those people were right.
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  I didn't have...
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  I didn't have the right experiences to really be a credible consultant at that point in my life.
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  So it was good advice even though I didn't like it.
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  There's a couple directions I want to go based off that answer.
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  The first one is...
• 9:25
  So I'm going to go with the other one because I lost track of the other one was going to.
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  So let's talk about...
• 9:30
  Because a lot of people watching this right now are entrepreneurs.
• 9:36
  And the way that they see their culture, they see their organization...
• 9:43
  Can you talk, because I heard you mention leadership, can you equate that to building up entrepreneurs inside your organization?
• 9:51
  Sure.
• 9:52
  um think I think entrepreneurship is really uh owning your part of the business.
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  You take the idea of extreme ownership, I own everything in my world and say, what decisions would I make if I um if I uh owned the business?
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  And I actually ask that question a lot.
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  If you were,
• 10:21
  John, if John owned the business, what decision would you make?
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  If you were John, would you spend that money?
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  um If you were John, what recommendations would you make?
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  If you were John, what would you say to you proposing this?
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  So, um need to think like the entrepreneur, like they own the business even though they don't.
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  um And they can go as far as they can create their own subculture inside the organization.
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  You can tell people, don't care what other departments do.
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  Here's how we are going to do things in our department.
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  So it's a mind, it's a mindset.
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  think that's a real good segue into my fill in the blank question.
• 11:03
  The biggest mistake leaders make when trying to build culture is blank.
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  Thinking it happens quickly and easily.
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  Building culture.
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  Go ahead.
• 11:14
  no, I was gonna say just elaborate on that, because that's good.
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  I mean, there are a lot of people out there say, OK, we're going to change the culture.
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  We're going to we're going to use new terminology.
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  We're going to we're going to have new slogans.
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  uh I can tell you the very worst people to help a company build a culture are marketing people because they see it as a marketing campaign and it's not a marketing campaign.
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  uh Building a culture is about identifying the behaviors.
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  that you want to see every single day because culture is culture is behavior.
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  That's what it is.
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  It's not a feeling.
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  It's not anything else.
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  It's the everyday behaviors that people make in and good values help people understand what the right decisions to make are.
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  That's the that's the purpose of company as values is to identify the behaviors that we we desire in the company and uh
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  gonna ask, would this be a correct, would you feel like this would be a correct statement?
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  Culture is more felt than seen.
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  um Yes, yes, because a lot of people want to actually, if you go back to the marketeers doing culture change, they want to put up banners.
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  Well, you can put up all the banners you want.
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  We can pass out goodies to people on Friday afternoons and all that kind of stuff.
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  Pizza as a reward is not culture.
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  mean, tyrants can buy pizza.
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  So, yeah.
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  you feel when you walk into an organization that has a great culture, you know it immediately.
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  Nice.
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  So you've spent a lifetime studying leadership and culture.
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  When you walk into an organization, what's the first sign that tells you it's either healthy or struggling?
• 13:09
  um I like to, when I walk into a company for the first time, I like to take a tour, whether it's the offices or the plant floor, and I get that feeling, that sense that you
• 13:18
  get.
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  um For instance, when I'm on the plant floor, um I like to interact with the operators.
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  um I like to see what they think about when they see the leaders walking me through the plant, how they react to that person's presence.
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  So they see that person as, oh no, here they come.
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  which tells me they're playing leadership and the organization are playing cops and robbers typically.
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  um Or do they greet them like they're just a colleague that has a different job in the company?
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  That gives us a sense.
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  I like to duck into the bathrooms when I take a tour, because bathrooms and other places like that that aren't supposed to be important, they are important.
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  Mm.
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  And I like to see, I like to see cafeteria, I like to see where people eat because that tells me a lot about how people feel about the people that work in their company.
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  Yeah, so you can see people interacting in different environments rather than just on the main floor.
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  I would think of a cafeteria as being the floor level people, the worker people feel like that's their space, right?
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  And they get to have conversations.
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  Right.
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  And is it just a functional area?
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  Is it somewhere where you really want to go eat lunch or dinner or breakfast?
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  mean, companies that work around the clock, that's somebody's dining room three times a day, at least three times a day.
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  So it should feel like a dining room.
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  I uh got a chance to spend a couple of days down at Chick-fil-A a few years ago at their headquarters.
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  that happened through a client of mine.
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  their dining area, their cafeteria is nicer than any Chick-fil-A.
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  It's a gourmet buffet and it's um every single meal.
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  Because Mr.
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  Cathy's attitude was, if we're going to be a family, then families eat together.
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  And the families don't ask people to pay for the meal at their dining room table.
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  So it's all free.
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  And we're talking about not just Chick-fil-A food, we're talking about
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  great gourmet food.
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  They have an executive chef that does nothing but feed people in their company dining room.
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  I love that.
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  Makes you want to go visit.
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  It's uh honestly, it's really, it's really cool.
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  I had met Dan Cathy.
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  um I was on the board of a Christian ministry that Chick-fil-A was supporting for a period of time.
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  uh Dan, on Monday mornings, they do a devotion.
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  It's a half hour long, any employee can go and they usually bring out like a pastor from the Atlanta area to speak.
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  and you had to raise your hand if you were a guest and I did.
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  And Dan came up to me and he remembered me, which is like, he meets a thousand people every day.
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  He remembered me and said, if you need anything, anything during the visit, here's my card.
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  I want you to call my cell phone.
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  So, yeah, I didn't call him, but I kept the card, because every once in I'll be in a chick-fil-a and go, do you know this guy?
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  You can understand why Chick-fil-A is as successful as it is when you hear things like that.
• 16:46
  oh So I'm just gonna call this a rewind moment.
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  We often have rewind moments on the show.
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  I want anyone that is listening or watching to rewind that little portion about how these really successful businesses operated and defined culture and think about.
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  how you can make, how you make people feel.
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  I think that's a big part of it is how you make people feel whether there are guests coming in or they work for you, right?
• 17:19
  How you make people feel and does so much for your business.
• 17:23
  I think here's an example and then I'll apply it to business.
• 17:31
  If you go to the recruiting offices for the armed forces, they're usually in the strip centers and they're all right next to each other.
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  And there's one that always stands out and it's the Marine Corps.
• 17:43
  Somehow the Marine Corps makes people feel very special to become a Marine.
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  and be part of that organization.
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  Matter of fact, you don't even get called Marine until the day you graduate from bootcamp.
• 17:54
  You're a recruit and then you get called Marine.
• 17:57
  And if you've ever been to Parris Island or San Diego and seen their graduation, when they get called Marine, there are tears.
• 18:06
  I mean, people cry.
• 18:07
  um When an organization is serious about what it wants from people and what it wants to be.
• 18:17
  and people realize that they are part of something unique and special, I think that they get that feeling um that, yeah, I like it here because this isn't just work.
• 18:31
  It's something different.
• 18:33
  It's a group of human beings endeavoring together to do something better than any of them can do individually.
• 18:40
  So um I have a client in Texas.
• 18:44
  uh
• 18:45
  um I'll name them ASCO Equipment.
• 18:47
  They're now the largest case um construction equipment dealer in the world.
• 18:53
  They weren't when I first met them.
• 18:56
  didn't even sell case equipment when I first met these guys.
• 19:00
  But when you talk culture in the leadership classes, there are people that cry talking about the company.
• 19:05
  I mean, we're talking about West Texas Cowboys.
• 19:07
  We're not talking about...
• 19:09
  You
• 19:10
  soft folk, we're talking about really hardened folk, they start, they talk about how it's different and how it's unique to work for that company.
• 19:18
  And it's just, it's really amazing to see that.
• 19:22
  I have three or four clients that people will really get emotional talking about how good the company is.
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  I want to stay on this track just for a minute.
• 19:32
  oh Let's talk about how powerful that is.
• 19:37
  Give us some insights in how developing that culture and that kind of buy-in and that kind of feeling from everyone in your organization, how that affects revenue and profits.
• 19:47
  Oh, first of all, we have to remember that anything that comes through the from the top line and falls to the bottom line has to fall through a lot of traps and filters and
• 20:01
  everything else.
• 20:02
  There's lots of ways for that money to get caught in the dispense other than the than the owners pockets.
• 20:11
  I think that one of the things that people everybody's a volunteer.
• 20:16
  The studies say that you only have to give about 20 % of your effort to stay employed.
• 20:27
  And the average engagement in America across all industries and all individuals is 39%.
• 20:34
  So people aren't even given half of what they can give.
• 20:37
  So knowing that people will stay employed and only give a portion of what they can give,
• 20:44
  that discussionary effort that they give is given by the way they are treated and the way they feel about their job.
• 20:50
  So, I mean, if you can just increase that 10%, let's say that your engagement level overall in your company is, let's say it's good, let's say it's 40, and you can get it to
• 21:00
  50, where people are giving you half of what they could really give you, all that falls to the bottom line.
• 21:05
  And culture is the conduit, it's the structure, it's the process by which that happens.
• 21:13
  Nice.
• 21:14
  Rewind moment again.
• 21:15
  Rewind to listen to everything that Phil just said.
• 21:17
  Like for any entrepreneurs that are, oh I'm sure there's a lot of solopreneurs and startups that are listening.
• 21:25
  Anyone that is oh at that level and it's easier to, actually I want to ask this question.
• 21:32
  Do you feel like it's easier to establish culture or fix culture?
• 21:37
  it's always easier to establish culture.
• 21:39
  But the problem is that most people are too busy trying to um produce goods and services and sell them to think about culture upfront.
• 21:52
  One of the things that also it's not important.
• 21:56
  It's not as important to be to memorialize, if you will, the values of the company.
• 22:03
  Because you're always around the, on a startup, you're always right around the, the, the owner, the, founder.
• 22:09
  So you don't have to say that this is our value.
• 22:12
  just do it because that's who Jack is.
• 22:16
  I'll give an example that I have.
• 22:17
  uh A great example is, in, in Spartanburg, South Carolina, there's a company called contact.
• 22:24
  And I know that I know that, uh, the owner wouldn't mind me talking about this because this is the journey that he took.
• 22:30
  Um,
• 22:32
  Jack had some very unique ways of running his business.
• 22:38
  And everybody knew kind of Jack's sayings.
• 22:42
  But I said to him a long time, we're talking 20 some years ago, said, Jack, you know, one day you and I are gonna be old, we're the same age.
• 22:49
  And now we're there.
• 22:53
  We're both pushing 70 now, so we're like, okay, we're...
• 22:58
  But I said, we need to memorialize this.
• 23:00
  We need to take...
• 23:01
  the things that you believe about running this company and codify them and make them the way the company is run.
• 23:08
  we wrote, ah we really, we didn't write, we scribed the six core values of this company.
• 23:18
  And then we put together, okay, what are the behaviors that we see when someone, for instance, it says one of the values, whatever it takes, that's actually one of their
• 23:27
  values.
• 23:27
  ah
• 23:30
  And what does whatever it takes mean?
• 23:33
  And then the next step and all that.
• 23:36
  So you have to put structure around that.
• 23:39
  You have to define values early on.
• 23:43
  And then you have to be serious about them.
• 23:45
  I tell people all the time and my clients, the only thing sacred here is the product or service and the values of the organization.
• 23:57
  They're sacred, and I use that word sacred.
• 23:59
  You violate this, you're gone.
• 24:01
  And people who understand culture understand, especially when there's a leader that leads outside of those values, for instance, shows disrespect for people, that's the very worst
• 24:15
  thing that can happen.
• 24:15
  And that person will cause people to go all the way back to that 20%.
• 24:21
  and give less discretionary effort and therefore they're giving less effort, therefore less productivity, whatever, ah less money falls to the bottom line.
• 24:31
  A couple of questions just from that.
• 24:34
  ah And I'll go with this one first.
• 24:39
  Let me just go back to the startups, their beginning entrepreneurs.
• 24:43
  When is the right time, or is there a perfect time to start establishing values and culture?
• 24:52
  I think from the very beginning, um if you're starting a business, you should be thinking about these things before you ever start delivering goods and services to anybody.
• 25:05
  And I think the right question to ask for a Christian entrepreneur who's thinking about starting a business is to finish this sentence.
• 25:14
  uh I am a Christian, therefore.
• 25:18
  Mmm.
• 25:20
  Yeah.
• 25:20
  I'm I'm gonna do, here are my goods and services, here's my value prop, and oh yeah, I'm gonna take some Christianese and stuff it on top of it to make it look good.
• 25:29
  And that's what a lot of people do.
• 25:31
  And they call themselves a Christian business.
• 25:34
  And I had a very wise man several years ago said to me, someone called it, we're a Christian business.
• 25:41
  He goes, we're not a Christian business.
• 25:43
  We're a for-profit South Carolina corporation.
• 25:46
  But we do.
• 25:47
  tried to follow the teachings of the Lord in the way we run the business.
• 25:51
  So I just thought that was a great differentiator.
• 25:55
  That's pretty powerful right there.
• 25:57
  And it actually makes me come up with another question other than what I was gonna ask you before, because when we talked before about culture is how you make someone feel, right?
• 26:07
  More than it is like a mission statement slapped on a wall, right?
• 26:12
  The same thing as being Christian business owners.
• 26:16
  Like are we making people feel like we're actually Christian business owners?
• 26:19
  Or are they looking at a side eye and saying, they're Christian, right?
• 26:24
  No, that happens a lot.
• 26:25
  um when companies hold themselves up as a Christian business, people in the business, they're not believers.
• 26:33
  The very first thing they will point to when something goes wrong is, well, that's not very Christian of you.
• 26:39
  It's kind of like using the word family, like we're a family here in this business.
• 26:43
  And the first thing is, well, family wouldn't treat each other that way or family, you can't fire family.
• 26:49
  That's so there's some
• 26:51
  There are some things that people do with good intention, but actually they're counterproductive.
• 26:58
  Just be a Christian business.
• 27:00
  Don't talk about being a Christian business.
• 27:02
  Just be it.
• 27:04
  I'm glad that you brought up the, cause it brings up my, question I was going to ask when you said you can't fire a family.
• 27:10
  oh Because you mentioned the percentages, like the more you can increase the percentage and there's certain things that will decrease percentage, poison in the well, right?
• 27:18
  You might bring somebody on, maybe you thought they were a great fit when they first brought on, but they could come in and actually poison the well and start to bring that
• 27:27
  percentage down.
• 27:29
  Can you talk about ways maybe to not
• 27:33
  I'm sure you can't do it perfectly, but rent that and once it happens, like ways to kind of root that out.
• 27:39
  Yeah, one of the first things that needs to happen is you need to recruit well.
• 27:45
  And people talk about, ah people don't talk about culture fit.
• 27:49
  say they do, but culture fit, you have to ask a lot of questions and you can't get that in one interview.
• 27:55
  You really get to need to know someone pretty deeply, especially when you're hiring a leader.
• 28:00
  And the smaller the business, the more important this is.
• 28:03
  mean, ah if you're a 10 person organization,
• 28:07
  and you're hiring another person to help manage the business, they're going to be responsible and you're going to split the responsibilities.
• 28:14
  You're handing over 50 % of the management and leadership of your business to someone else.
• 28:18
  So understanding that person fits is very, very important.
• 28:23
  So that's kind of the prevention.
• 28:25
  The other part is to make it this idea that lead the way you lead is as important as the results you get and probably more so because
• 28:38
  The results we get are temporal.
• 28:41
  Market conditions and all those things change constantly.
• 28:45
  But the way we lead, if it's constant, will produce fruit because people understand that they're being treated well, they're being valued, and um they see that the company's
• 28:58
  serious about what they believe to be the correct way to do business.
• 29:03
  And that's the values.
• 29:04
  So I have a saying that...
• 29:07
  If you, when you turn on the light, flowers grow and cockroaches run.
• 29:12
  So what we're talking about is those cockroaches in the organization.
• 29:16
  And the idea is, mean, I have clients who I've sat in meetings and they say, well, is he a cockroach or not?
• 29:23
  Trying to determine whether or not somebody should stay.
• 29:27
  But the first thing we do, I mean, what we want to do is teach.
• 29:30
  We use our values to teach.
• 29:32
  Values are for teaching, not preaching, I like to say.
• 29:36
  So.
• 29:37
  Here's the behavior we're saying, here's our value.
• 29:40
  That is a violation of what we believe is the right way to lead and teach and coach.
• 29:48
  And if they don't get there, then um when there's a cancer in the organization, right treatment is chemotherapy, surgery, chemotherapy and radiation, because they're toxic.
• 30:00
  The mixed metaphors between cockroaches and cancer.
• 30:04
  Yeah, I hear the term all the time, hire slow, fire fast, right?
• 30:10
  And when you build an organization, I'm sure that the better you build it, the better you build the culture, it kind of polices itself, you know, in a little way, because the good
• 30:23
  people will out take back people.
• 30:26
  Well, I like to say you know that the culture you've worked to define the culture and the culture is there to stay when it is cooler to do the right thing than do the wrong thing.
• 30:38
  So that's true anywhere.
• 30:40
  And when people understand that the company is serious about their values and rewards the people that are aligned with those values, uh especially in leadership roles, you know, I
• 30:54
  I know I've seen it a million times.
• 30:57
  That's not how we do things here.
• 30:59
  Or that's not the ACME way, if the company's name was ACME.
• 31:06
  And I'm talking about from people at the lowest levels of the organization, not just leaders.
• 31:13
  In your experience, is it harder to maintain culture the larger you grow or does have to do with the speed of growth?
• 31:21
  It's both, actually.
• 31:23
  The large, because if you grow quickly, the best cultures are, and this goes all the way back to Jim Collins in built to last, that the companies are built to last, leaders come
• 31:36
  from within and don't come from the outside.
• 31:40
  And that's because they're products of the culture.
• 31:42
  So as a leader grows in an organization, the culture of the organization should be,
• 31:50
  transformative in their life.
• 31:52
  That they see the company's values and their values as the exact same thing.
• 31:58
  When you grow quickly or grow large, almost by necessity, you start bringing people from the outside in and they haven't been inculcated in that culture.
• 32:09
  I mean, I'll go back to their experiences I had at the Naval Academy, the officers from other commissioning sources in the Navy didn't have.
• 32:19
  So they couldn't relate back to those experiences.
• 32:23
  And you could say something and they'd say, that's just from the academy.
• 32:29
  That doesn't matter.
• 32:31
  yeah, it does matter.
• 32:32
  That's the reason we were taught at the academy because it does matter in the fleet.
• 32:35
  So they didn't have the same experience.
• 32:38
  So growing too quickly is probably worse than growing too fast.
• 32:46
  I mean, growing large.
• 32:48
  Because when it's quick, you have to make some decisions because there's obviously there's some positions you just have to fill.
• 32:53
  uh Can a large organization maintain its culture?
• 32:58
  It's hard.
• 32:59
  It really is hard.
• 33:00
  um Because there's more people, you um know, if culture is about behaviors and the highest, the greatest source of variation in any company are human behaviors.
• 33:15
  And the more people, the more sources of variation to use quality theory to talk about it.
• 33:22
  It's hard.
• 33:22
  So yeah, it's difficult.
• 33:26
  need to keep it intentional uh through the whole growth phase.
• 33:30
  Just stay as intentional as you can be.
• 33:33
  Yeah, I have a client that has an incredibly strong culture and they made one bad hire.
• 33:39
  A guy who had all kinds of industry experience.
• 33:42
  um Unfortunately, there was probably telltale signs that he wasn't a good fit for the culture, but the decision was made at the time to bring him in uh because he could affect.
• 33:54
  ah
• 33:56
  the growth of sales in a region.
• 34:01
  And he did a lot of damage to the culture because people say, they must not be serious about these values because he doesn't live by them and he's still employed.
• 34:11
  And eventually he was terminated.
• 34:13
  But the damage he did is they're still trying to reconstruct that damage here three years later.
• 34:17
  Wow.
• 34:19
  Let's dive into faith a little bit.
• 34:21
  oh Let's talk about how your faith has been a part of your whole journey through, oh from the Naval Academy all the way to where you are now.
• 34:32
  oh What has helped you?
• 34:36
  I'm trying to think of the exact right question I want to ask you.
• 34:39
  oh
• 34:42
  Are there any pivotal moments that you can think of where your faith played a key role through your journey?
• 34:48
  um Yeah, I think I became a believer when I was 14.
• 34:53
  It was one of those, some people who listen to this can probably remember back to the old late great planet Earth with how Lindsay and the world's gonna end.
• 35:05
  Believe it or not, there was um a high school auditorium presentation by a band that just hear music.
• 35:13
  This is my high school.
• 35:16
  in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is one of the more liberal places in the country now.
• 35:20
  And they came and played Jim Croce songs and said, if you want to hear more music, come tonight.
• 35:26
  Well, little did we know it was it was a revival meeting.
• 35:30
  So the guy starts talking about the end of the end of the uh end of the world.
• 35:36
  And at the end of it, he goes, close the doors.
• 35:40
  And these guys stood in front of the doors in the back of the auditorium.
• 35:43
  So the only way.
• 35:45
  out of the auditorium was across the stage to say that you accepted the Lord.
• 35:50
  Well, I'm sure you could get out.
• 35:52
  They weren't going to block people, but it was a little scary, a little intimidating.
• 35:55
  So that was the day I accepted the Lord.
• 36:00
  It was real for me.
• 36:01
  I knew it was real, that's not...
• 36:04
  I mean, I didn't know anything about grace.
• 36:06
  I didn't know anything about any of that.
• 36:10
  And by early years in the academy, I was holding on to God because God was...
• 36:15
  gonna help me graduate, know, or God was gonna help me do this and God was gonna help me do that.
• 36:19
  He was, I think I was doing that classic God is my co-pilot kind of lifestyle.
• 36:25
  uh I had some personal issues in my life that were very difficult uh and I started attending Bible Study Fellowship, which is a fantastic ministry.
• 36:40
  I mean, if you want to dive deep into the scriptures, Bible study fellowships, an excellent platform for that.
• 36:46
  And I got pretty serious about my faith.
• 36:49
  And all along, I knew that ah when you talk about values, of course, it should align with what you say you believe as a Christian.
• 36:58
  But I wasn't serious about it the way I became very, very serious about it.
• 37:04
  And even in my, I've been asked many times,
• 37:08
  Is the leadership process you teach, is it aligned with the scriptures?
• 37:12
  I said, well, I can point you to scriptural references to almost everything I teach.
• 37:18
  And if you want to see them at some point, I'll be glad to share them with you.
• 37:21
  So.
• 37:23
  just part of who you are, right?
• 37:24
  Like it just exudes, like once you become obedient, right?
• 37:29
  And you accept Him as Lord and not just as Savior.
• 37:32
  oh It starts to exude from just who you are.
• 37:36
  it becomes like anyone that has any, oh knows anything about the Bible will just know that, oh, that person is leading in a biblical way.
• 37:46
  So one of the great, probably the greatest spiritual shock of my life came, I was the director of training and development at a company here in Greenville where I live.
• 38:01
  the Lord, kept hearing the Lord say, it started, Blue Night, started with, I taught seven habits, you write a mission statement, that's one of the seven habits, beginning with the
• 38:11
  end of mine.
• 38:12
  And I kept hearing the Lord say, because I went to the Naval Academy, I thought I was going to be an Admiral.
• 38:17
  I thought I was going stay in the Navy for career and be an Admiral.
• 38:20
  And life didn't turn out that way for me.
• 38:23
  I still think I could have been if I'd stayed in, but that's a whole other matter.
• 38:26
  I stayed in the reserves.
• 38:29
  And I heard the Lord saying, you're not supposed to be.
• 38:31
  And then I thought in business, you know, I'm in manufacturing.
• 38:35
  I'm going be a plant manager and then I'm going to become the COO and all that.
• 38:39
  I heard the Lord clearly saying, nope.
• 38:41
  That's not what I want you to do.
• 38:43
  I want you to be a good second.
• 38:46
  I want you to help develop other people to be great leaders.
• 38:52
  And believe it not, I was mad about it.
• 38:55
  Because, no, no, I did all this.
• 38:58
  My whole life has been pointing to being a leader and you want me to be someone who coaches and teaches leaders, but not be a leader himself other than in the purest way.
• 39:10
  Yeah, I was upset, but I knew it was true.
• 39:13
  I knew it was true because I got an offer from the president of company to go be a plant manager.
• 39:21
  And I could clearly, I mean, I looked at him.
• 39:24
  uh He took people to Charlie's Barbecue near where I lived, near the headquarters.
• 39:31
  And if you're going to Charlie's with Joe, you're either going to be fired or promoted.
• 39:36
  So I didn't know which one was coming when I was invited to go to lunch with him.
• 39:40
  He said, I want you to be a plant manager at this plant in Indiana.
• 39:44
  I said, I'm honored, but no, that's not what I'm supposed to do.
• 39:51
  And he said, I was ungrateful and this is the chance of a lifetime.
• 39:54
  But I knew, I knew that the Lord was clearly telling me no.
• 39:59
  that's kind of the reason, that's the reason I started my own business because I knew that that's what I'm supposed to do.
• 40:06
  And there's not a lot of places in the corporate world you can do that in the way you really want to do it.
• 40:13
  I think this could be powerful for anyone listening.
• 40:19
  I'm sure a lot of people hear you say that and they're like, well, how did he know that was from the Lord?
• 40:24
  How did you know for sure that the Lord was telling you not to take that job?
• 40:30
  He made me uncomfortable with liking the things that I was liking.
• 40:35
  Like, why do you want to do that?
• 40:37
  Why do you want to go be a plant manager?
• 40:38
  Why do you want to be the big dog?
• 40:40
  Those kind of things.
• 40:41
  And I was uncomfortable.
• 40:44
  And I was dating my wife at the time and she was saying, this is clearly what you're supposed to do.
• 40:53
  She was...
• 40:55
  She was on her own faith journey, we're in many ways in the same place and some ways not, but she kept saying, no, if you're hearing this and you're feeling uncomfortable, but you
• 41:06
  continue to come back to this, that maybe this isn't what I'm supposed to do.
• 41:10
  And maybe this is what you're supposed to do.
• 41:15
  If the Lord wants you to do something, he's going to, he isn't going to boom, he's not going run you, but he's going to nag you to death until you do it.
• 41:23
  Yeah.
• 41:23
  you face the consequences of not doing it.
• 41:28
  I just got nagged by God, I guess.
• 41:35
  That's so good.
• 41:36
  I'm going to ask uh what may be quickfire questions if they're long answers, that's great too.
• 41:40
  But what separates greed leaders from average ones?
• 41:45
  uh Great leaders truly, truly, care and love the people that they lead.
• 41:55
  They, yeah, I'm gonna just leave it at that.
• 41:58
  That's what they do.
• 41:59
  They love them.
• 42:01
  They don't see them as employees.
• 42:02
  They see them as human beings to be loved on.
• 42:05
  Maybe this is a similar answer.
• 42:06
  What's one leadership principle that never changes no matter the industry?
• 42:10
  um People are people first and employees second.
• 42:18
  And uh yeah, it is.
• 42:21
  you, I mean, you're not dealing with an employee.
• 42:23
  You don't have an employee issue.
• 42:24
  You have a people issue.
• 42:25
  And if you always, I've seen that where people go, for instance, someone's going through a divorce and their productivity goes downhill and they were a great employee before and
• 42:39
  maybe they start missing some work.
• 42:40
  And people go, I don't know, maybe we need to find someone else.
• 42:45
  Like, what?
• 42:46
  This is a human being going through the worst possible season of their life, and they are a great employee on one side.
• 42:52
  I'm going to come alongside them, love them, support them.
• 42:55
  And on the other side, they're going to be a great employee too, and maybe even greater because we stuck with them and loved on them rather than judge them for what they were
• 43:04
  going through.
• 43:06
  Yeah, that's so good.
• 43:07
  And I think that's actually on both sides of the industry and the business.
• 43:13
  When you think about your internal employees, think about your clients on the outside, right?
• 43:17
  That they're not just leads, they're not just clients, they're people, right?
• 43:23
  And even if you're just in a product sales business where you don't interact much with the consumer, you still have to envision that person as a person.
• 43:35
  right, and not just someone that uses my thing.
• 43:38
  Right, that's exactly right.
• 43:41
  And I know this is easier in the work that I do rather than somebody makes products or sells products.
• 43:49
  That's a tougher way to live out your faith every day than what I do for a living.
• 43:57
  What's the biggest mistake leaders make when they try to drive performance?
• 44:04
  They try, they push for performance before they build trust.
• 44:10
  Trust is the currency of leadership.
• 44:12
  Without trust, you're bankrupt.
• 44:15
  So the very first thing a leader should do in an organization, if they're new to the organization or new to a position, is work on building real deep, real trust, not like,
• 44:25
  hey, you know, I like you, you like me, let's do work together.
• 44:30
  So yeah, if I...
• 44:32
  You need to know there's a saying that says, what is it?
• 44:39
  I don't know if you care until I know how much you care about me or whatever it is.
• 44:44
  I'm messing that up.
• 44:46
  I care less about what you know and how much you care about, more about how much you care about me.
• 44:50
  Care first.
• 44:52
  And that's true.
• 44:53
  So the foundation of leadership, asking people, trying to get the best to come from people, get that discretionary effort out of people, is to show that you care for them.
• 45:04
  the way you trust is the vehicle by which we show we build that relationship.
• 45:16
  So I think that segues nice into how do you what's the difference between leadership and management?
• 45:22
  Yeah, leadership, uh management is about it.
• 45:26
  I mean, this is old, but I think it's true.
• 45:28
  uh Management is about efficiency and leadership is about effectiveness.
• 45:34
  So a manager makes things effective, reduces waste, makes things more efficient, works on processes and those kinds of things.
• 45:44
  uh Leaders make sure that the things that they do are effective.
• 45:49
  And when we say effective,
• 45:52
  That's processes, it's also people.
• 45:55
  Is it effective in building that relationship with people, which is the basis by which we do better things together.
• 46:05
  Nice.
• 46:05
  Is there a common habit trait, oh for lack of a better word, that uh many leaders take on that isn't productive that they should stop doing right away?
• 46:20
  One that comes to mind right away is the unwillingness to admit they've made a um unwillingness to say, I'm sorry.
• 46:30
  There a lot of leaders when they get in that position, they just feel like it shows weakness to say, I'm sorry, or I screwed up.
• 46:37
  um But I think that shows strength.
• 46:43
  That's exactly what we're taught to do.
• 46:46
  If I hurt you, it doesn't matter if I meant to hurt you, if I hurt you, I'm going to apologize.
• 46:53
  It cost me nothing to apologize.
• 46:55
  Nothing.
• 46:56
  You know what?
• 46:57
  And if that's what you need from me, I'm going to give it to you.
• 47:01
  But leaders can't do, a lot of leaders can't do that.
• 47:03
  They just can't, you know, if I say something and it hurts my wife's feelings.
• 47:07
  And I'm like, I didn't mean to say that.
• 47:09
  That's not what I said.
• 47:11
  But if she feels hurt.
• 47:12
  I'm going to apologize and ask for forgiveness because that's the process of uh grace and reconciliation in any relationship.
• 47:21
  And leaders are afraid of doing that.
• 47:23
  Very afraid of doing that.
• 47:25
  Sounds like that thing that Jesus kept pointing to, that pride and ego thing.
• 47:30
  it is.
• 47:30
  It is.
• 47:31
  then, the old pride go before the fall.
• 47:33
  That's true.
• 47:34
  That's very true.
• 47:36
  I, I, um, General Motors has their own college.
• 47:41
  People don't know that, but it used to be called G, it used to be called GMI General Motors Institute.
• 47:47
  back in, back in the seventies and, um, into the early eighties, they actually taught in their MBA program, never admit you're wrong and never say you're sorry.
• 48:00
  And the reason why is they didn't see the competition as Ford and Chrysler and the other automakers.
• 48:06
  saw the competition, no, they saw the enemy as the UAW.
• 48:12
  And if you say to the UAW, if you say, I was wrong, then you're setting yourself up to everything to be questioned.
• 48:21
  If you say you're sorry, it's a sign of weakness.
• 48:24
  I mean,
• 48:25
  sounds like some politicians too.
• 48:27
  Yeah, does.
• 48:28
  Exactly.
• 48:29
  And when you see that and people will not admit that they're wrong ever, say, you just, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's everywhere, not just with leaders.
• 48:39
  I mean, it's true with parents.
• 48:41
  we parent, which is a type of leadership.
• 48:44
  We're afraid to say I'm sorry to my kids, or I was wrong.
• 48:48
  I probably said that 10,000 times to the, to my three cost centers, as I call them.
• 48:56
  Nice.
• 48:58
  I think my next question is kind of will sum up everything that we will talk about.
• 49:04
  You've covered it a little bit, but uh what is the secret to building a culture when people actually want to give their best every
• 49:12
  Well, um I think it's uh establishing ah that the core, you mentioned alignment early on.
• 49:26
  Alignment is about vision and values and operating principles ah and making sure those are in place um and then living them every day.
• 49:42
  It's like the same as, ah and again, making them a sacred.
• 49:46
  And when people know they're working for a company that where they, we insist upon people doing the right things the right way, whatever that is, and companies can define that any
• 49:58
  way they want.
• 49:59
  ah Some, I think some values are better than others, but ah yeah, people want people like they're serious, not only about what we do.
• 50:11
  They're not serious, they're serious about the way we do it.
• 50:14
  And when you do that, people are more likely to give more of that discretionary effort.
• 50:20
  Yeah, people go back to, I think this is a good use of word pride.
• 50:24
  People want to take pride in it.
• 50:26
  They want to take pride in the company that they work for.
• 50:29
  uh My wife works for a great company and she talks all the time about how great the culture is like to other people.
• 50:35
  And they have FOMO, that they don't want that type of culture at their business.
• 50:42
  Yeah, think when you talk about people who have never worked for a great company like that and people talk about it, they almost like, no, it can't be that good because great, great
• 50:54
  cultures, companies with great cultures are a little cultish and not everybody fits.
• 51:01
  And people who don't fit,
• 51:02
  Hopefully if they're in the organization, they self-select out.
• 51:06
  So great cultures actually self-regulate that way because they self-select, people self-select out.
• 51:12
  I don't want to be part of this.
• 51:13
  These people are crazy or these people are goody goodies or whatever they want to say as they walk out.
• 51:19
  But yeah, I think that, I think people who hear about that and have never experienced it, there's some jealousy probably like, wow, I wish I were for a company where people cared
• 51:28
  about me.
• 51:31
  Yeah.
• 51:31
  Wow.
• 51:32
  This has been an amazing interview, Phil.
• 51:34
  I'm so glad that you agreed to do this.
• 51:37
  I think there's been, I said probably rewind a couple times, but I think you could just rewind this whole thing and listen to it again because Phil dropped so much wisdom on us.
• 51:46
  We talked about wisdom a little bit early on.
• 51:49
  Speaking of wisdom, Phil, I want you to direct people where they can go find out more about you and how you can help them.
• 51:55
  But I have one last question because
• 51:58
  I don't want to leave anything on the table.
• 52:00
  Okay.
• 52:03
  You may feel like there's something I didn't ask you or you didn't get to talk about.
• 52:06
  So this is that open floor for you right now.
• 52:09
  What would you like to pass on to anyone listening or watching?
• 52:13
  um When I do workshops, I always end with this.
• 52:21
  every BMW, say, 40 years from now, every single car that we make is going to be in a trash heap.
• 52:32
  It's temporal.
• 52:33
  Our products and services are temporal.
• 52:35
  But the way we treat people...
• 52:37
  ah affects the way they go home and treat their family.
• 52:40
  It affects the way they treat their neighbor.
• 52:42
  It molds them and shapes them for better or worse.
• 52:47
  So even though the actual products and services that we produce are temporal, the effect of the way we lead is eternal.
• 52:57
  It passes from generation to generation to generation.
• 53:01
  And we have, as leaders, we have that opportunity.
• 53:04
  We have the ability
• 53:06
  in the platform to help mold people for better or worse.
• 53:11
  And people live most of their life outside of work.
• 53:14
  So if work can be that positive, transformative experience, while we're also getting paid and also producing goods and services, how wonderful is that?
• 53:25
  And that's really what, to me, that's what a profitable Christian business is about.
• 53:32
  What is a...
• 53:33
  What is a profit a man to gain the world and lose their soul?
• 53:36
  Well, let's give people their soul.
• 53:38
  Let's teach people what their soul is and they can gain, they can profit in ways other than financial.
• 53:47
  Yep, and I tell people all the time, there's so much more meaning than revenue in that title of profitable Christian business.
• 53:55
  It's more about how can we be profitable to our fellow man?
• 53:58
  How can we show love and grow the kingdom of Jesus?
• 54:06
  So good.
• 54:07
  So with that being said, ah how can people tap more into your wisdom?
• 54:13
  Where can they go to find out more about you?
• 54:15
  Well, they can go to our website and it's www.riverstoneway.com and uh Riverstone Way is actually I live on Riverstone Way, but it wasn't named after that.
• 54:29
  It's the Riverstone Way, is our our leadership process.
• 54:33
  We call it the Riverstone Way because uh Riverstones are solid and well rounded.
• 54:38
  And that's what we want to see in leaders be solid and well rounded.
• 54:41
  So
• 54:42
  RiverstoneWay.com is where they can uh find us and um get information and uh find a way to contact us.
• 54:51
  And I think we'll also put your LinkedIn link below too.
• 54:55
  uh So we'll put the link to your website and to LinkedIn.
• 55:01
  And you mentioned a resource also earlier.
• 55:04
  I think it was a Bible study resource, Bible study fellowship, was that what it is?
• 55:09
  Bible study fellowship, takes one topic, typically one book of the Bible, and it follows the school year and it meets one night a week.
• 55:18
  Warning on this is that there's two or three hours of homework every week.
• 55:24
  So you have to be serious.
• 55:25
  It's not just something you go to and just listen.
• 55:31
  But I've had people tell me that they think that Bible study fellowship is actually
• 55:36
  takes a deeper dive into the scriptures in some places than seminary does.
• 55:42
  for me, was transformative um in my understanding of the scriptures and what it really means to be a follower of Jesus.
• 55:52
  Well, in keeping with our values as a podcast, as a company, and wanting people to not just grow business-wise, we want them to grow closer with the Lord.
• 56:04
  So I'm going to also share that link.
• 56:06
  And that seems like a great way to grow in your walk with the Lord.
• 56:13
  just as people hear that two or three hours homework, and yes, it is a commitment, but at same time, what else would you want to commit more to?
• 56:21
  Right, it's honestly, uh for me at that point in my life, it um was almost like feasting every week.
• 56:31
  It's, know, the word of the Lord is the bread of life.
• 56:35
  So, I mean, honestly, I just couldn't get enough and it, yeah, it was just an amazing experience for me.
• 56:45
  Well, thank you again, Phil.
• 56:47
  And make sure that uh if you can use Phil's wisdom for your organization, tap that link wherever you find it, either below in the show notes or somewhere around this video.
• 56:58
  Make sure to visit that link.
• 57:00
  And again, dive into that Bible study fellowship if you want to increase your closer walk to the Lord.
• 57:09
  If you want to get closer in your walk with the Lord, uh tap into that as well.
• 57:13
  Thank you again, Phil.
• 57:15
  Thank you, Doug.
• 57:17
  And uh until next time, keep moving forward.
• 57:20
  Mm.