Latest / Paging America / Sicker today sicker tomorrow — RFK Jr. continues the rampage

Transcript

Sicker today sicker tomorrow — RFK Jr. continues the rampage · Paging America

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everybody.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Paging America,
• 0:17
  where we explore the power of profit and politics shaping
• 0:20
  American health care and
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: what you can do about it.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Myles Baker, along with Dr. Rob Davidson.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Dr. Rob, it's been a while.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't chatted in a couple of weeks.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: It has been a while.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing okay.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for holding down the fort.
• 0:32
  I appreciate you,
• 0:33
  you know,
• 0:34
  keeping things going while I was out for a little bit there.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, Rob, where'd you go?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I spent a couple of weeks in the UK.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Spent about a week in England.
• 0:44
  I spent a week driving on the wrong side of the road in
• 0:47
  Scotland with a stick shift.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Haven't driven a stick shift since 2013.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: That was interesting.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: That was interesting.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Which one did you?
• 0:53
  You find harder,
• 0:54
  switching back to the stick shift or being on the other side of
• 0:56
  the road.
• 0:56
  I only stalled maybe a half a dozen times in the first couple
• 0:59
  of days,
• 1:00
  so that part was okay.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just sort of focusing,
• 1:03
  knowing that those trucks coming at you on those very narrow
• 1:06
  roads in the Scottish
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Highlands probably aren't going to come over the middle line.
• 1:09
  But every so often there's a sign that says,
• 1:12
  look for vehicles in the middle of the road.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: And my wife and I kept saying, is that just a PSA?
• 1:17
  Like,
• 1:17
  it doesn't tell you what you do when a vehicle's in the middle
• 1:20
  of the road.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm anticipating you bail left, but...
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like an FYI.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: This could happen.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we survived.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Rob,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28
  I used to have my driver's license in Thailand when I was there
• 1:32
  working on human
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: rights research.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I drove on the opposite side of the road for a year.
• 1:37
  And when I got back to my hometown where my college was to kind
• 1:41
  of set up shop back
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: in the U.S.,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: I went in,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: I got some chicken nuggets at McDonald's,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: and I pulled out fully into the wrong lane.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And here they come.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone in the car starts screaming.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: That muscle memory is real.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know this, and I think it's relevant to even what we do.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: My wife and I spent six months in New Zealand doing medicine,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: doing health care,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: got to go with our kids down there,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: and also driving on the wrong side of the road.
• 2:05
  Someday have an interesting discussion how life actually works
• 2:09
  for doctors and
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: patients in places where universal health care is the expectation,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not just the pipe dream that we all have.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 2:15
  coming back after that was an interesting couple of days of
• 2:19
  just having to tell
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: yourself where you're supposed to be,
• 2:21
  especially in the neighborhood where there aren't lines on the
• 2:23
  road and things like
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 2:24
  You're just kind of barreling down and seeing a car coming at
• 2:27
  you wondering what is
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: their problem.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 2:29
  I'm glad you survived your post-Thailand driving and we're
• 2:32
  bearing and driving on
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: the right side of the road again.
• 2:34
  For folks who are listening,
• 2:35
  so today we're going to cover,
• 2:36
  we do have a good show today.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have a guest because there's just so much going on.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to try to get through some of the main points.
• 2:42
  We're going to cover,
• 2:43
  we've got big cancellations of contracts on mRNA research.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: We have the very scary shooting at the CDC,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: the shenanigans at the Veterans Administration,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: and what's going on with drug pricing and tariffs in a little bit more.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got a lot to cover.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't we get right into it?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Rob,
• 2:59
  I'm going to just set this up because this is the big news in
• 3:02
  health care,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: as far as I can tell,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: this last week.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: RFK Jr.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: is cutting funding for mRNA research by over $500 million,
• 3:10
  half a billion dollars in funding to develop new mRNA vaccines
• 3:13
  in order to focus on
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: safer,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: broader vaccine platforms.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Experts call the move reckless and a huge blow to our national security.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya says... Bhattacharya, yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: For the reason for pulling the funding is because a large fraction of the
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: population distrusts the mRNA platform.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Rob,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think for the uninitiated,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: for those of us who don't,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of folks listening will understand,
• 3:34
  but for some of us don't understand the difference between sort
• 3:36
  of the vaccine
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: itself and like the platform for the vaccine,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: that like it's not just a total straight line.
• 3:42
  Do you have any insights into that before we talk about like
• 3:45
  sort of what this
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: could look like in the future?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the platform,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: basically,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: mRNA,
• 3:51
  it's sort of one step from the blueprint of DNA in our cells to
• 3:56
  making proteins,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: any kind.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: So anything in your cells goes through that process,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: your chromosomes,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: your genes,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: you have the DNA,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: the cells make the RNA,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: mRNA,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: and that then goes into proteins making heart muscle,
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: making skeletal muscle,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: making pancreas,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: whatever,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: as your development and through your life as cells regenerate.
• 4:14
  And so the platform is basically taking that known technology
• 4:18
  that happens in our
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: cells,
• 4:19
  introducing that mRNA into individuals to sort of hijack the
• 4:24
  immune system to make
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: antibodies.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Antibodies are just proteins.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're proteins targeted against something.
• 4:31
  In the case of COVID-19,
• 4:32
  they were proteins targeted against protein on the virus
• 4:36
  itself.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: But the mRNA platform is not just for vaccines, okay?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So first they say they're looking for a safer,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: the safest vaccine platform that anyone has ever come up with.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: They used to just give people,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: back in the day with smallpox,
• 4:50
  they'd just give you a little bit of smallpox and you'd get a
• 4:53
  light dose of
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: smallpox and then you wouldn't get a big bad one that killed you.
• 4:56
  But some people got more than they should and some people would
• 4:58
  die from it and
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: immunocompromised people can't get those kind.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's still like live attenuated vaccines out there and
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So like the mRNA vaccine technology,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: it does not involve the actual pathogens you're inoculating against.
• 5:10
  It's basically taking little bits of their code and then taking
• 5:14
  your body's immune
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: system to fight against it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it isn't just viruses and infectious diseases.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's also cancer treatment.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: The platform has existed for over a decade.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there actually have been studies I've been reading about this,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: who are they really screwing over with this,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 5:28
  Not just those of us who care about public health and pandemic
• 5:31
  preparedness,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: because that is critical.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: The other piece of this, it's a fast way to do this.
• 5:35
  They can engineer these platforms in a few months and get like
• 5:40
  they did with
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Operation Warp Speed,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 5:42
  Probably the singular achievement of Donald Trump's first term
• 5:45
  that he could turn
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: to and say something he did to actually help people.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the one thing he will not talk about, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Crazy.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not crazy.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's expected.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But there are studies out there looking at treating brain tumors.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Glioblastoma, like a deadly brain tumor.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: 95% of people are dead within five years of diagnosis.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: These are the ones we hear about of people in their 30s and 40s,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: healthy people,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: just randomly get these genetic things.
• 6:08
  And they've shown promise in targeting tumor cells and people
• 6:11
  with brain tumors
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: using this mRNA technology.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So he's not just...
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: canceling necessary vaccine research and pandemic preparedness.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: He's canceling cancer treatment for people.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's unbelievable.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And for them to say, well, people don't trust it.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we're doing it.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hey, genius, why don't they trust it?
• 6:29
  It's because the guy with the brain worm has convinced them not
• 6:32
  to trust it,
• 6:33
  right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: An entire political party,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: it would seem,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: spent the better part of a year,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: two,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: three years convincing people not to trust it.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And now they say, well, we're here and people don't trust it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I guess we'll get rid of it.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was looking at,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I asked the robot to collate the different things that mRNA,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: people think it could potentially be used for.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I want some of that stuff.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm 40 now.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I want research on some of that stuff.
• 7:00
  Say you have a heart attack,
• 7:01
  like they think like maybe regrowing parts of the heart.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: They were talking about all sorts of different cancers.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: There was promising research in the pipeline on HIV,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: which,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: if you're 40 years old,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: HIV has been a,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: it's been a disease that you can really manage,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: but it's not,
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: we can't like fully cure it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they were going to get there.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's shutting so many places.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: So many things.
• 7:25
  I just think if you're a middle-aged person or if you're like
• 7:27
  in your 30s,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: maybe in your 20s,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: you're not thinking about your health yet.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Probably should, but maybe you aren't.
• 7:32
  But you start getting into your 30s and start thinking about
• 7:34
  your health and you're
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: whoa,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I want the stuff in 10 years.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: I want the stuff in 15 years.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: I want that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want those things to be done.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty crabby.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: They're canceling it, so.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, this cuts across so many different populations.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can imagine people with neurodegenerative disorders, right?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Post-struck patients, spinal cord injury patients.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can imagine this technology.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: basically,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: if you get the code and you can get the delivery system,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: you can generate these proteins inside of people.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And just to cut that off wholesale because of some crazy,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: crazy sort of quasi-political movement that is against it—
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's just another notch in RFK's,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: anti-science,
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: anti-health,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: anti-human platform.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't know the ramifications.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: We may never know, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's hard to know what didn't happen.
• 8:25
  But we can sit here now and look forward and anticipate how
• 8:28
  this is going to set us back.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So fortunately, this is one of those things.
• 8:32
  I would imagine a lot of these researchers are just going to
• 8:34
  flee the country,
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: go somewhere else and do it somewhere else.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: OK, I hope I do.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Also something we can turn back on.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: The importance of not having RFK Jr.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: or people like him there in two years or four years,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: the importance of political efficacy and changing who's in charge.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of that Medicaid stuff,
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: that's going to be a generation to undo the damage of a lot of that.
• 8:54
  This is something we can turn back on on January 21st of 2029
• 8:57
  if Donald Trump is,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: or his protégés are no longer in power.
• 9:01
  So so I guess we'll stay tuned and hope they can keep it on the
• 9:05
  back burner.
• 9:05
  Something I think maybe we should explore in the future would
• 9:07
  be interesting,
• 9:08
  like interesting how much of this gets picked up by the private
• 9:12
  sector versus how
• 9:13
  much this is sort of that baseline research that has to happen
• 9:16
  outside of the
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: private sector.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that it's really it's really I mean,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: as a general matter,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you're talking about broad application like this,
• 9:23
  it seems like this should be this should be grant funding
• 9:25
  coming out of the
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: government.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: that the private sector can then run with when it's time to distribute.
• 9:28
  But it's frustrating because you can see like if the private
• 9:32
  sector has to do some
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: of this work,
• 9:33
  they're going to pick and choose on sort of profit verticals on
• 9:36
  some of this stuff.
• 9:36
  Whereas some of these,
• 9:37
  something that's broadly applicable won't necessarily get
• 9:40
  picked up.
• 9:40
  So yeah,
• 9:40
  I think it's hard to assess like the full scope of the damage
• 9:44
  right now.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing on the list that you're like, why are they doing that?
• 9:47
  It's all just like cancer,
• 9:49
  heart disease,
• 9:50
  things that really affect people's lives at scale.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's stuff you can do without, you know.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to – one more thing before we move on, Rob.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: This feels like national health policy is being – like,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: you,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: read about,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: old Soviet Union and how everything became politicized.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so they couldn't get out of their own way on science.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: They couldn't get out of their way on – you know,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: it was just,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: all dear leader stuff in,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: the Politburo of the Soviet Union.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like that is happening now.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: at HHS faster than anywhere else.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like the,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: the complete transformation,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: or maybe it's just more stark because there's,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: because,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: because the things that they used to do were,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: were science clear.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like when politics influences science,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: it warps it in ways that are clearly,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: you're clearly able to see.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if that's happening across the government at the same rate,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: or if HHS really is this special,
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: special bag of crazy.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to say.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: But like I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe this is true.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a podcast.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we can say what we believe to be true.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would say HHS and DOD are the two biggest departments.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Under a cabinet secretary.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're not cutting.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're not cutting DOD.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're not cutting DOD.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're going full tilt.
• 11:01
  And they're just going to I mean,
• 11:02
  their DOD is we're going to talk about this in a bit.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're moving into the Capitol.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're letting them do that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is the biggest cabinet position,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: RFK Jr.,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: probably affecting the most people,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: in general,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: in very intimate and personal ways,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: people's health care.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think because of that, I don't know.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think lots of things are happening in lots of places,
• 11:26
  probably similarly distressing to people who follow that and
• 11:29
  people who are deeply
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: invested,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: as advocates or folks who do research.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But because this is health care, because it's so personal,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they're now,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: kind of coupling this with the tax cuts for the rich,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: taking money away from poor people,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: taking,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: sorry,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: health care away from poor people to pay for tax care for the rich.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: It just all compounds it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have a personality with a political movement like RFK Jr.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: that brought that political movement to help Donald Trump get elected.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think you put all that together and this is a special situation.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we find ourselves talking about this guy so damn much.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want to talk about RFK Jr.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:06
  But anytime I do a media outside of what we do,
• 12:09
  we're talking about RFK Jr.,
• 12:10
  you know?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:11
  Because he's so his his agency is big enough that he becomes
• 12:15
  omnipresent through
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: the chaos he sows with it.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just to transition into another thing that RFK.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Jr.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: did.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a very scary shooting at the CDC.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Last Friday,
• 12:27
  after breaking into his father's gun safe to take five weapons
• 12:29
  and ammunition,
• 12:30
  a man who believed COVID vaccines are dangerous opened fire on
• 12:34
  the building at the
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: CDC's Atlanta,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Georgia campus.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: CDC campus,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: for those of you who are very big in Atlanta,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: huge,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: huge sort of jobs,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: kind of his like dominates a part of the city.
• 12:45
  He fired nearly 500 rounds and killed a police officer before
• 12:48
  killing himself.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was reading it was, I believe, the first officer who showed up.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: 500 rounds also.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: That is,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 12:55
  he obviously like did not shoot a ton of people like in some of
• 12:59
  the other mass
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: shootings in this country,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: but like he was,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: he was,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: that's an incredible amount of ammunition.
• 13:06
  Investigators found documents at his home that expressed the
• 13:08
  shooter's discontent
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: with the COVID-19 vaccine,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: although they wanted to
• 13:12
  They wanted to make sure they said in public,
• 13:14
  we don't know what his motives were.
• 13:15
  Anti-vaccine rhetoric,
• 13:16
  shoot at the CDC indiscriminately,
• 13:18
  seems like we might know.
• 13:20
  Given the anti-vaccine rhetoric coming from the Trump
• 13:21
  administration leadership,
• 13:23
  some are saying that it was a matter of time before something
• 13:25
  like this happened.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And just before we set this up,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: like Kennedy at one point compared vaccine use to Nazi death camps.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: For people who are susceptible to the anti-vaccine rhetoric,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: he has used at various points in his career and ginning up...
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's used the most extreme—this is the example that we want to use,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: but there are dozens,
• 13:42
  hundreds of others—of some of the most extreme language you can
• 13:46
  use to describe
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: vaccines and describe the CDC.
• 13:49
  And now he is ostensibly in charge of it as it sort of comes
• 13:53
  under the purview of HHS.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is I think this is gross, Rob.
• 13:57
  I think I think it's hard to draw a straight line from rhetoric
• 14:00
  to someone's actions.
• 14:02
  But there's a there's a quote from Bill Clinton back in the 90s
• 14:06
  that I've always
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: found really applicable.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: When we say things on television or mass communication,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: it falls on the serious and the delirious alike.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like we may have had an instance of that down in Atlanta.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 14:18
  some degree of aggressive behavior has been experienced by
• 14:22
  probably every health
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: care worker in this country related to the COVID-19 pandemic,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: I lost count of the number of times I was yelled at by people,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: screamed at,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: telling us,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: you're giving my loved one this.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying to kill them by intubating them,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: even though their oxygen's 50% and they're gasping and they're blue.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: My wife's clinic,
• 14:39
  they had to get security guards there for the first time
• 14:41
  because someone punched a
• 14:42
  hole in the wall when they came in because they were told they
• 14:44
  had to wear a mask,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: during the peak of the pandemic.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: She's got masks.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so just punched a wall.
• 14:50
  And so,
• 14:50
  like,
• 14:51
  of course something like this was bound to happen at some
• 14:54
  point,
• 14:55
  right?
• 14:55
  Our nation is awash in guns that can fire 500 rounds in a very
• 14:59
  short time.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we have RFK Jr.
• 15:02
  and his minions who have spent their careers and now have the
• 15:07
  reigns of government.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: denigrating what they do at the CDC, right?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you genuinely believe the stuff that RFK Jr.
• 15:14
  and his anti-vax folks have said about vaccines and the harm
• 15:17
  they claim they cause
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: people,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: particularly children,
• 15:21
  and you genuinely believe this and you were inclined to do
• 15:25
  something about it using
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: a firearm,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: like of course you're going to go to the CDC,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:29
  These are the folks doing the business of saving our lives with
• 15:32
  vaccine research
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: and recommendations and all that.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're the face of that piece of our public health apparatus.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: he's gone on defending himself,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: saying,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: despite what authorities have said,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: where they believe this is part of the motive of this individual.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And RFK Jr.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: basically poo-pooing that.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I saw a report yesterday.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying, well, that's not the case.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the next breath,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: criticizing the CDC for their actions during COVID-19 and the overreach.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, people at the CDC are...
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: furious about theirs.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's reporting about that, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Of course,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: anonymously talking about this because they're terrified of retribution,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: losing their jobs.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it's not totally anonymous.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the director,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Susan Menarez,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: she sent a note to the company's 10,000 employees Tuesday afternoon,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: blaming the role of the promotion of misinformation.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: She basically blamed misinformation and disinformation.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: So she's probably not long for this world.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like how long is she going to be right, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Bad jobs numbers, you're gone, right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: You go out and tell people it's misinformation.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can't imagine she lasts.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, good for her for at least speaking her mind.
• 16:36
  Statement appears to go further than remarks made during the
• 16:38
  agency-wide meeting
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: where public health should never be under attack.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's what they said during this sort of meeting.
• 16:43
  And we know that misinformation can be dangerous,
• 16:45
  so she went out a little bit further.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: But, like, what a crazy thing that we're here parsing sort of like the –
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: the various degrees we're able to blame,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: we're able to cast blame on,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: what has been,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: incendiary and obviously,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: rhetoric can be dangerous.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's just...
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone...
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: I always say,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: anyone who holds a microphone,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: some people say no,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 17:05
  they'll say those on while going and doing television or
• 17:08
  holding a microphone to
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: their face while they do a podcast.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: So they, like...
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: At some level,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: anyone who's commenting on this stuff,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: whether they're writing it or they're saying it on the Internet,
• 17:16
  like knows that information has power of some kind or like why
• 17:20
  else would you do
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: that?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, rhetoric can be dangerous.
• 17:23
  And I think there's the fact that they're parsing the little
• 17:25
  variations in how much
• 17:27
  we can and how much we can blame that is just sort of a
• 17:30
  testament to what a sad
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: state of affairs we're in.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a tell, really.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a tell.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, they know it.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: He knows it.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: They all know it.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to admit it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't want to in any way take on any blame.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or, I mean, this crowd, they don't apologize for anything, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen that for the past 10 years.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is a sad state.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I applaud the people who still work there,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 17:50
  who are still willing to go in every day and do the work
• 17:53
  despite the fact that
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: their ultimate boss,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: RFK Jr.,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: attacks them all the time.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how people do that.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, that's just, it's just, that's, it's wild.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's some political reporting that folks are pretty scared to go back.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And there was like,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: people were asking,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: apparently they have some common,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was reading that they have some common areas where you can go,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: there are parts of the CDC you can't take a cell phone call.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: because there's security,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's because security or the walls are thick.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not exactly sure,
• 18:21
  but there are common areas that are sort of glass walled where
• 18:24
  you can go take
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: phone calls to call out.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like people are like, are these bulletproof?
• 18:29
  Because so many,
• 18:30
  so many bullets actually like pepper the side of the side of
• 18:32
  the building.
• 18:33
  I think it's something like 200 rounds actually are like in the
• 18:36
  building walls or
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: landed on the building.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So ugly stuff.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Ugly stuff,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
• 18:40
  we got to talk about it and we can't lose sight of what their
• 18:43
  rhetoric can do.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we can switch gears here.
• 18:49
  The Veterans Administration is canceling union contracts with
• 18:53
  most of its unions.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's just a big union bust at the VA.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Department of Veterans Affairs announced Wednesday.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: This is from military.com.
• 19:01
  Department of Veterans Affairs announced Wednesday it was
• 19:03
  ending collective
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: bargaining agreements with most federal unions,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: a move that affects roughly 80% of the total workforce.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Members of AFGE,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: it's AFGE,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: the National Association of Government Employees,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: the National Federation of Federal Employees,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: the National Nurses Organizing Committee,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: and SEIU,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: the Service Employees International Union,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: would no longer have labor protections under their contracts.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Rob, you know, I mean, I used to work in the labor movement.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think union busting is disgusting.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: A total crackdown like this, just like abroad.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand how it's legal.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: This feels like something that they're that they're going for it,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: where they're just going to they're going to try to break the union.
• 19:39
  They're going to try to say,
• 19:40
  like,
• 19:40
  we're going to let this become a morass in the courts.
• 19:43
  And by the time this works its way through things or it works
• 19:46
  up to the Department
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: of Labor that we that we control,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: it's already going to be too late and we'll have broken the union.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Broken union and in some ways potentially breaking the VA, right?
• 19:56
  Like one of the most popular,
• 19:57
  most effective health care delivery systems in this country.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: It has problems for sure.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Veterans there who utilize the VA,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure in this country,
• 20:05
  every health care system has problems because we don't have a
• 20:07
  health care system.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: We have a patchwork of systems that help different populations.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: But to the extent that this system exists,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 20:15
  it serves like the people who deserve that probably more than
• 20:18
  anybody at this
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: country.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And for them to dick around with that like this,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: they're already in their funding round this year.
• 20:27
  They're already diverting more funds from the VA into
• 20:29
  privatized health care within
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: the VA,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 20:32
  Taking this system that that is like a contract between our
• 20:36
  veterans and us and now
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: doing this,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't just affecting workers and union members.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's affecting the ability of people to actually deliver care, right?
• 20:46
  And again,
• 20:47
  it's one of those things like what is their reason,
• 20:49
  you know,
• 20:50
  purely political?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, right?
• 20:52
  I would imagine most of these unions have supported Democrats
• 20:55
  in the past to some extent,
• 20:56
  right?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know all that.
• 20:58
  I know the federal unions are swinging the other way,
• 21:00
  but do they stay out of it?
• 21:04
  They don't engage in the same way that the private sector or
• 21:09
  the public sector unions do.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like the federal unions really are – they do politics.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: They stand up for their own interests.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: They participate in the First Amendment.
• 21:18
  But they're not as overtly political as some of the other
• 21:23
  unions where they're like
• 21:24
  creating programs or they're building PACs or they're going out
• 21:28
  and they're flexing
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: real political muscle in primaries and in general elections.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 21:32
  it's just a—this feels less like political retribution that
• 21:37
  we're seeing on some
• 21:38
  other fronts and more like I'm going to crush civil society
• 21:42
  wherever it is because
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: it slows down—it slows me down.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Or it is just a nuisance.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Or I just want to show you that I can.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I want to bring the federal workforce to heal.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's how I read—
• 21:56
  Rather than political retribution to AFGE or some of the other
• 22:01
  unions that organize
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: federal employees,
• 22:02
  it's more like the larger – it feels to me like it's the larger
• 22:06
  project of smashing
• 22:08
  civil society and particularly as it relates to civil society
• 22:11
  that's inside the
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: federal government.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly with this president, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, correct.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So on brand.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So on brand with this president.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: it seems like the VA is now in the crosshairs,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: of Donald Trump and his minions.
• 22:26
  It must cause – because there's some reporting that they've
• 22:30
  really had – they've
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: had workforce flight from the VA already before they smashed the union.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And if they – you know, it seems like they're going forward.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: If they're smashing the union –
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: More people are going to leave.
• 22:41
  There are some people who I suspect their federal union was one
• 22:44
  of the reasons why
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: they liked working where they are.
• 22:46
  The federal government can really like crush its employees if
• 22:49
  there's no way to
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: push back on it because it's big and bureaucratic.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Federal unions are actually really,
• 22:55
  really important because the federal government does not have a
• 22:58
  conscience all by
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: itself.
• 22:59
  And I wonder if you just get sort of massive flight out of the
• 23:03
  VA and what that does to CARE.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it does a lot to care, right?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: It does a lot to training of doctors.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Many residencies that aren't military,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: they're not military per se,
• 23:12
  but there are a lot of VA centers in big cities with a lot of
• 23:15
  different residency
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: programs.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And people rotate through there in various rotations, you know.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: when I,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: right out of college,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: took a year off before med school,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: I worked in a lab in a VA in Salt Lake City,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Utah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: No kidding.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so they do research in VA facilities.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're hospitals like any other hospital.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: They have researchers.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: They have, you know, an educational component.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of different facets beyond just the care of veterans,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: which should be enough to give us pause,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: if they're tearing that away.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: But just kind of peeling away the layers,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: just like they are with canceling NIH contracts,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: just like they are with,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: canceling all the mRNA research.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: feels like they're trying to dismantle sort of the sort of science-based,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: evidence-based apparatus of,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: to me,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: healthcare,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: society in general,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: maybe.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Facts seem to be sort of secondary, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if facts are secondary,
• 24:05
  why would we want to actually dig into the reality of diseases
• 24:09
  and train people
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: well in those processes?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they care so much about that anymore.
• 24:14
  I have some stats here that I pulled up that sort of reporting
• 24:17
  from The Guardian.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: So they've already lost 2,000 registered nurses,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: 1,300 medical assistants,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: 1,100 nursing assistants,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: 800 doctors,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: 500 social workers,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: and 150 psychologists out of the VA because of the chaos.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then, I mean, clearly more to come.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: More to come.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Tough.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's like promises.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: But it's getting pretty clear, and there's increasingly more reporting.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Tariffs are going to drive up the costs,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: the out-of-pocket,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: your costs,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: the cost of a human who needs a medication.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: President Trump on Tuesday threatened to impose tariffs of up 250% on
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: pharmaceutical imports,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: the highest rate he's discussed to date.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be putting initially a small tariff on pharmaceuticals,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: he says,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: and then he's threatening his 250.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see if this is a taco or whatever it is, but...
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: But in one year, one and a half years maximum, it's going to 150%.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: He wants pharmaceuticals made in the country.
• 25:22
  What are the chances we're going to onshore all of our
• 25:25
  pharmaceutical production in
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: a year and a half?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Rob?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it's his fucking adult brain that thinks...
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe thinks this is a real thing that could actually happen.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: It is totally broken.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so his I don't know his fixation.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we haven't talked a ton about tariffs.
• 25:43
  You know,
• 25:43
  tariffs are obviously affecting prices for everybody in every
• 25:47
  aspect of their life.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And industries across the board,
• 25:51
  but for him to directly target pharmaceuticals so that we can
• 25:55
  bring them home.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it a bad idea to have that, to make more drugs here?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a bad idea overall, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: As part of a comprehensive policy,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: a five,
• 26:06
  10 year plan of reinvesting in pharmaceutical research and
• 26:10
  production in this
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: country.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's all sign up and let's have a plan that actually does that.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: But just slapping,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: two to three times the price that people are going to pay for for drugs.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:22
  With this pipe dream that in a year we're going to ramp it all
• 26:25
  up like that's such
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: crazy bullshit.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: The public policy in its totality is on one side,
• 26:32
  I'm going to put a tax on people who need to take medications
• 26:36
  in order to try to
• 26:38
  incentivize pharmaceutical companies to build factories that
• 26:43
  make pharmaceuticals
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: in the United States.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to tax sick people, essentially.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to take sick people to try to bring the things here.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time,
• 26:52
  I'm going to slash research R&D into future pharmaceuticals in
• 26:57
  the form of anything
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: on the mRNA platform.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or anything with basic NIH funding, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, those pipelines are being cut off too.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:04
  That is not that's not policy to make people healthier,
• 27:07
  just to be very clear.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's not policy to make people wealthier.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like it's just Donald Trump's obsession with like factories.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:16
  But that he likes like he likes to talk about like building
• 27:19
  factories here and like
• 27:20
  building and like and like bringing industry to heal and making
• 27:23
  them like put stuff
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: in America.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like got not much additional depth beyond that.
• 27:28
  His high level discussions about territory in the Ukraine was
• 27:31
  based on waterfront property.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he literally talked about waterfront property.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's the best property.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Rivers, lakes and oceans.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's where you want the property.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like this guy.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he is.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's a fucking moron.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we're all paying the price for all this.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nobody left in government or appears that way,
• 27:49
  except maybe the director of the CDC that's willing to say
• 27:52
  anything that could draw
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: the ire of this person.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so they all just kind of go along.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: They all go along.
• 27:59
  RFK is definitely going to have some glowing things to say
• 28:02
  about how wonderful this
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: will be to have all our drugs being made here.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 28:05
  these guys aren't going to be around by the time we could
• 28:07
  actually ramp up that
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: level,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Neither of them, I mean, like they're both old.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: They are old.
• 28:12
  There's like a very decent chance these guys are not alive when
• 28:16
  the first factory
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: could possibly open up.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't think it reshores it, right?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like it just raises costs.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: The reshoring is like this myth.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's some like overtures to it.
• 28:27
  But these folks are – these industry folks are going to – they
• 28:30
  know this is stupid.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: They know it's unsustainable.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: They're just going to wait them out.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to bring them presents and give them platitudes.
• 28:37
  And in the meantime,
• 28:39
  it's going to mean higher prices on medication for folks.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: It'll be interesting.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: It'll be interesting, Rob.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think we'll want to look into like whether the –
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I'm being too generous to the Trump administration.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about whether we want to look into if his,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: edicts to lower costs versus the tariffs.
• 29:00
  Is edicts to lower costs actually lower costs relative to how
• 29:02
  much the tariffs raise costs?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: The edicts to lower costs is a press release.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not actually a lower cost.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: You took the words out of my brain.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a scribbled press release,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 29:12
  where he scribbles his pubic hair signature on those big things
• 29:15
  in the Oval Office.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you know, you know.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:20
  So I guess in the problem with this is like sick people who
• 29:23
  rely on these drugs,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: they've been abused for so long by big pharma and high costs.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think people are just beaten down.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's hard for sick people to organize and voice against this.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's why doctors, hey, any doctor listening?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: We know no bones about it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be out there with our voices.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Advocating on behalf of those folks.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I also go to a place of like,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: like the big pharma has been such pharma has been such like an abusive,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: like an abusive actor in the healthcare space for so long that like,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: even,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: even Trump sort of saying something like this,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: like even however implausible it is,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: or sort of silly on its face that,
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: that it would not work,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: that there's,
• 30:05
  there's an element of people like people want to believe that
• 30:08
  it could work,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: that pharma could be brought to heel and forced to reinvest here.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: And even,
• 30:13
  You know,
• 30:14
  and sort of skip the fact that it's just going to make their
• 30:16
  cost go up.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 30:18
  The only thing I have hope for is that these guys are so craven
• 30:21
  and so addicted to
• 30:22
  profits that that will actually not allow them to really fall
• 30:26
  in that much,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the cravenness and the absolute,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: cutthroat profit-driven motives,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: that's what's going to save this whole policy.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're counting on the evil empire remaining evil.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the quacks.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: We got one last one last topic we wanted to cover, Rob.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you you were particularly fired up about this.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: over the weekend and into the early part of the week,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Trump has federalized the Washington Washington,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: D.C.'
• 30:50
  's Metropolitan Police Department and sent in the National
• 30:54
  Guard to take over law enforcement.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is on the heels.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is because of a crisis ostensibly from Trump administration,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: despite it is a 30 year low in violent crime in the District of Columbia.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, nicer than it's ever been.
• 31:07
  But on the heels of there is a Doge,
• 31:09
  20 year old Doge staffer named Big Balls.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Big Balls.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to say Big Balls before you.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: I had to say Big Balls first.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Big Balls got beat up.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so now we've militarized the Capitol.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to just I'm going to speak to the politics of this,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: but then we want to speak to the health care.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is about as clear as it gets that Trump is going to make up.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: The L.A.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: thing was obviously made up, but they did burn two Waymos.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: There was two burnt cars.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is historically low crime.
• 31:39
  One of the Doge kids gets beat up,
• 31:42
  and they federalize,
• 31:43
  which is like a crime.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: It happens.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't happen.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: It happens in cities.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: But we're not talking about a systemic problem.
• 31:50
  We're talking about one kid that Trump knows getting beat up,
• 31:53
  and they federalize D.C.,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is clear.
• 31:57
  He's going to use any excuse he can to exert more and more
• 32:00
  power over blue cities,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: over cities that are in blue states,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: and to harass.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't checked out the videos on Twitter,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: like 14th Street,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Rob,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I used to live near 14th Street.
• 32:09
  14th Street is not as pleasant of a street in the United States
• 32:11
  of America as it could be.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of brunch spots.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of the kids going out.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of people having a ramen or a sushi dinner.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: It is extremely pleasant, and there are checkpoints on it right now.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Last night, they put up checkpoints down 14th Street.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely incredible.
• 32:27
  We have a colleague whose daycare is right near Union Station
• 32:30
  just sent us a
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: picture on our signal of a tank,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Picking up, dropping off the kid at daycare.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a tank at a red light, or Humvee, sorry, at a red light.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: But a Humvee for like a Fallujah Humvee, not like your H2.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is like a- Fully armed.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Fully armed.
• 32:48
  Yes,
• 32:48
  and desert calling,
• 32:49
  just because that makes sense in Washington,
• 32:51
  D.C.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this guy wanted to see tanks rolling through the Capitol, right?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's a parade or whether it's him militarizing the Capitol.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he's got it, right?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: This was his big balls getting beat up was his impetus to do this.
• 33:04
  One of my concerns about this is the rhetoric I've heard him
• 33:07
  use and Caroline
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Levitt,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: his mouthpiece,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: use about the people they're going after,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: We are anti-crime in this podcast.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I am, right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: We should.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: People should.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: We should be against big balls getting beat up.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: You don't like big balls, but he shouldn't get beat up, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're talking about sweeping all the homeless people, right?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: All the people.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a problem in all of our cities, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: There was an anonymous individual.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't want to give his name.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: He thought it'd be Retribution who was interviewed.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw he said, you know, I just want a job and housing I can afford.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm here.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:41
  But one of the things that concerns me and why I thought we
• 33:43
  should talk about this
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: is that huge problem in the homeless population is mental illness.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: A huge problem in the homeless population.
• 33:50
  I mean,
• 33:50
  I see it in a little microcosm in a little rural area I work is
• 33:55
  drug use.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Opioid use disorder, alcohol use disorder.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Huge problems.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: These are medical problems.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Needed to be treated with health care.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And she said people...
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: We'll either go into treatment or go into jail.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where the hell is all the treatment coming from, Caroline?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: You guys just cut Medicaid, right?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are cutting research on medications.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so now you're telling people either you go into treatment or you go.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: They think these are people who don't want to be treated, right?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Who don't want to be well, who don't want to be housed.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: That isn't the case for the vast majority.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: These are people who require medical care.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are getting medical care.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know people who volunteer in free clinics in D.C.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: treating the homeless population because it,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 34:37
  is significant because it's a big city in America and people
• 34:41
  can't afford to live
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: in these places.
• 34:43
  And so for them to militarize a response to medical issues,
• 34:48
  that pisses me off.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's something we got to we got to talk about.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you're going to have,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: like we do in a lot of cases,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: people with untreated or poorly treated mental illness,
• 34:57
  people with addiction issues just being swept up and thrown in
• 35:01
  jail to clean up the
• 35:01
  streets so he can drive his motorcade through and not have to
• 35:04
  look at them.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it should be offensive to everybody, certainly people in D.C.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: and I have friends in D.C.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: that I'm hearing from.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're all to a person extremely concerned about this.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: But just if you have a concern for basic humanity,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: and basic human rights,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: this is what these folks are doing,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: just so Donnie can get tanks in the Capitol.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think we have to continue to speak out about it.
• 35:31
  I know certainly people are from the civil rights side and his
• 35:36
  authority on that.
• 35:37
  But from a health care side,
• 35:38
  I think doctors need to be a part of those voices.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, I couldn't agree with that more.
• 35:45
  Because it's also worth saying when Trump says the Capitol has
• 35:49
  been overtaken by
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: violent gangs,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: bloodthirsty criminals,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: COVID mobs of wild youth,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: drugged out maniacs,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: and homeless people.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: One, one of those categories isn't like the rest.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: But two, that's just not true.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: D.C.,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I like look like I like downtown Chicago.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: I know people think downtown Chicago is unsafe.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's unsafe.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually pretty, pretty damn safe.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like like D.C.
• 36:12
  can have a little bit more a little bit more going on than like
• 36:14
  a Chicago or New
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: York like downtown in terms of.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just exceedingly safe.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: It like it felt exceedingly safe to me anyway.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: The last the last many times I've been there.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the people you talk to who live there.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been there, too, a number of times.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you block everywhere in the city.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 36:31
  And they're speaking to a base of people who don't go there or
• 36:35
  live there,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: don't go to cities,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: like mostly rural folks.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they're mainlining Fox News.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all they're doing is talking about it.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you can always find an incident, right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: In L.A., you can find the two Waymos that got set on fire.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: But the vast majority of people in L.A.
• 36:50
  at the time that those Waymos were on fire is like,
• 36:52
  yeah,
• 36:52
  I was just going to the farm.
• 36:53
  market like we're just living our lives and then all of a
• 36:55
  sudden they militarize
• 36:56
  our city yeah and i one one last thing before we go and i i
• 37:00
  just want to say this
• 37:01
  to everyone because it was it was it was the national guard it
• 37:03
  was the dea agents
• 37:04
  and the ice agents we don't expect very much of the ice agents
• 37:07
  these days but i'll
• 37:07
  just say to the dea agents and the national guard guys i know
• 37:11
  you got you're in a
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: hard situation you're in a tough spot
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're not mad at you like the hippies after Vietnam,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: but people got to make choices on what they say yes to.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: And going and setting up checkpoints on 14th Street in Washington,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: D.C.,
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: is you've found yourself in a hard situation.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: And at some point,
• 37:31
  people might have to make hard decisions about what they're
• 37:32
  saying yes to in their
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: chain of command.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because that is...
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's a crazy thing to do.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: They've turned you into actual mall cops.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: People who are like good jobs,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: who are highly trained,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: who I have signed up to protect this country.
• 37:45
  And they are literally like they're literally like being
• 37:48
  deployed to like menace
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: brunch on 14th Street.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's rude.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's rude to the profession.
• 37:54
  It's rude to the men and women in uniform who signed up to the
• 37:56
  National Guard to go
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: do real shit.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I don't like it.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't like it either.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we'll get all fired up and call it for the day, Rob.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's good seeing you again, Miles.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll definitely be back again next week.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you read us out?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll do that.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 38:15
  Today's episode was written by Chris Savage,
• 38:17
  Dr.
• 38:17
  Rob Davidson,
• 38:18
  and me,
• 38:18
  Miles Baker.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was produced by Amelia Dillenschneider.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Joel Bryson and Darian Batajan.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Music by Annette Somerset at Duneflower Productions.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed today's show,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: please subscribe and leave us a rating on YouTube,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Spotify,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Apple Podcasts,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: or wherever you listen.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Your support helps others discover the podcast.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are one of our new subscribers on Substack,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: thank you very much for checking out the video content.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Position your voice matters.
• 38:41
  Join the fight for better American health care by becoming a
• 38:43
  member of the
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Committee to Protect Health Care.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Visit committeetoprotect.org to learn more.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Dr. Davidson, as always, great talking to you today.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to you later.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: See you then.