Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / Rethinking 5 Star Reviews | Interview with Em from The BookList
Transcript
- Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy of romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantasy theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things stark and spicy. Rachel: One thing we as a book community can all agree on: the five-star rating system is broken. With our ever-growing TBRs, many of us depend on five-star ratings as a way to quickly decide whether a book is worth reading. But both a spicy little novella and an eight-book fantasy series can be a five-star read, depending on what you're in the mood for that day. And today's guest is a woman who is working to solve this problem. You may know her as the Book Brat. Today we are sitting down with founder of The Book List, a platform designed to rethink how we approach book reviews. Welcome, Em Em: hello? I'm so excited. I cannot wait. You're gonna have to struggle to shut me up. Just fair warning you. I'm so excited to be here. yeah. yeah. Kate: No, we love that. We l we love a good yap. Rachel: Yeah. Em: Anyone who knows me knows I don't shut up, so I'm here for it. Rachel: we love it. That's perfect. You should you should maybe have a podcast as well then. Em: Look, maybe I could honestly, the voice notes that I send my friends, sometimes I'm like, wow, that was 10 minutes. okay. Kate: So you have just an unreleased podcast that it has a very exclusive listener list. Em: You exactly, exactly. Just it's just an exclusive list of people that get all of this. incoherent sentences and all. So exactly. Kate: We love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really excited to chat with you about the BookList and your vision for what book reviews could and should be. But before we do, we'd love to get to know you a bit. So could you tell us about yourself and kind of how you became part of the bookish community? Em: Yes, now this, I mean, I could give you the long story, which we will be here for a while, but I'll try and kind of bring it bring it tighter. so I guess more about me is I have been a part of the creative space my whole life. I've danced since I could walk, been a part of the performing arts industry. I then went on to study at full-time, went on to have a career in the performing arts as a dancer, traveled the world, did that sort of thing. And so it's always been in me. It's always in my blood. I'm a very creative person. and I think just I've I've been a reader as an adult for maybe like the last three years or so. and I've always watched the community from afar from my personal account. Loved it so much, all of the funny reels and opinions and book reviews. And I just consumed it. I was like gobbling it up. I was like, this is amazing. I finally found like I feel like I've got a spot. where I am like honed in on the things that interest me. and I was like, I'm so here for this. Then I I looked around my life and I realized that no one else was like me in like reader format. No one else I knew was kind of reading what I was reading. or they were and they just weren't vocal about it. And I was like, well no, I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: wanna, I wanna do this with people. so without Kate: Ha ha. Em: I guess like without getting like too deep in the feelings, I At the start of the year, I got diagnosed with autism and ADHD, which is a whole thing on its own in terms of like realizing you don't actually know yourself and all this sort of stuff. But it a part of me trying to, I guess, or forcing myself to honor who I was, and I guess getting to know myself a little bit more, I thought, you know what, why don't I just put my finger in this pie and get along and be a part of this too? And I kind of joined the book community without ever wanting it to be anything. It was like I was gonna voice what I thought about books out in the ether. And if people agreed with me or disagreed me with me, or if I got followers or didn't get followers, that's fine. I was having the time of my life. And like if you go back to my early content, you can watch my personality like literally unfold in real time. And It is, I'm not gonna try and get upset or emotional, but the book space for me is something that I will always cherish and I'm eternally grateful for because I have now met who I actually am and I have met some of the most incredible people I would have never come across if I hadn't done that. so I love it here so much and I have finally found, I guess, the place where I slot in, kind of going back through my life and realizing I didn't really have something where I felt like I could be with like-minded people in a way where I didn't have to pretend to be someone. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: so that is what the book space to me is. It's more than Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: just screaming about books and being unhinged on my opinions and my reactions, but it is deeply embedded into into my life now. And I will never ever be appreciative enough of what it's done for me. So yeah, it's it's a little bit emotional, but Kate: I love that. I mean being being unhinged is fun too though. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: It is, it definitely is. Kate: it's both. Rachel: totally feel that too. Like two years ago if you told me that I would have great friends that I met made on the internet like Em: Right. You'd be like, what? Huh? Kate: No. Rachel: At you like you had three heads, like and it's and those are the people that you know, probably similar to what you're saying with the voice memos, those are the people that I'm like calling from the highway constantly when I'm listening Em: Yes. Rachel: to a book, and I'm like, I just need to tell you about this. And I had to I had to Em: Exactly. Rachel: branch out because Kate was the only person who was getting those crazy voice memos before. Em: Like the most unhinged things that you probably should never say out loud in a group of people, they're my people. Like Rachel: Yeah, mm-hmm. Em: Yeah. Yeah, so it's very special. Kate: I love it. So I I know that you've kind of been finding your people, you've been finding your own personality and your own voice in in this whole journey, but are there like specific kind of genres and and types of books that you have been gravitating most to? Em: I am a romantasy stan for life. 100%. Kate: Yeah. Em: I think, yep, yep, but yep, yep, I think I'm in the right room. Yep, Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: We get that. Em: guilty. I I tr I tried the whole normal normal romance, like contemporary romance, and I love that it's for some people, but for me, I'm like, give me fated mates, give me mind speaking, give me whimsy and magic and like I there's so much in romancy and fantasy, I think because it's there's no rules in a way, that it just takes you somewhere else. And it for me, it gives me, I guess, a sense of what I'm reading for is female rage, number one. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: Having female Kate: Mm, mm-hmm. Em: main characters be allowed to show the full depth and range of their feelings in a healthy way. And also in a way that does better for the world around them. And self-discovery, my god, I am a sucker for an FMC, being like, my god, I need to discover who I am and discover my power and overrule all of these people. Not overrule, but you know, you get kind of get what I'm saying. Like Rachel: Mm. Em: that is what I am looking for more than anything else. And a bant MMC who can flirt until the cows come home. Like those those are my those are my checklists. It does, right? Kate: yeah. Yeah. I mean that that makes sense. Yeah. I mean you Rachel: Yes. Yes, we love some banter. Kate: kind of did your own self discovery, right? So that's great. Em: Exactly. And if I can especially if I can put myself in the FMC's shoes, regardless of her hair colour, and be like, I'm you, you've got me, you've got me. Kate: So it sounds like you kind of dabbled in some contemporary romance first, but like how did you have like a gateway book that really solidified like, romantasy is where I need to be. This is what I love. Em: Yes, and I think it's probably the same answer for all of us. I I did read or tried to read Harry Potter as a teen. I read the first three books, and then I think as the movies were coming out, I just like dropped off. Rachel: Mm. Em: and look, to be honest, I also don't really remember. It could have been that it was a male lead. I'm not sure. Devoured Twilight as a teen. That was the real gateway. If we're gonna go back Rachel: Mm. Em: to the origin story, that's like Twilight stan Forever. I devoured those. That's where the Witching Hour chapters and reading came. Rachel: Ha ha. Em: And like that's where I was like up at it until three or four o'clock in the morning, sometimes doing all-nighters. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: And my mum would be Why are you so tired? I'm like, Well, mum, did you know that there's now werewolves? Like, like, let me give you the debrief, please. And she'd just stare at me going, Why did I buy you those books? Like, what have I done? Hello. Like, Kate: You don't understand, Mom, my world is falling apart. Rachel: Ha ha. Em: I know, seriously. and like I did I did the whole Colleen Hoover thing and like I loved them, but then I kept seeing on my personal feed these comments and mentions about some dude named Rhysand. And I'm like, well, that's a weird name, first of all. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: and then Fairies, what's Fairies? Hang on, what's going on? What's what's everyone talking about? it's Feyre. Okay. ACOTAR was my gateway drug. Having not been exposed, I think, to the book space at the time, I was like, This is amazing. Like, wow, I want to eat this book. It's so good. And that from then folded into throne of glass. I'm still hurt over it. And then fourth wing, the snowball. We all know the snowball Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: is just where I Kate: Mm-hmm. Em: think we all naturally have ended up here. but yeah, ACOTAR, you've got a special place in my heart forever. Rachel: So we were not ACOTAR ACOTAR was not the gateway for either of us. Em: Mm, mm. Rachel: actually, Kate, do you wanna tell her you wanna tell her your truth right now? Em: please, give me the tea. The confession is happening Kate: Listen, so I have not Em: right now. Kate: Prepare yourself. But I have not finished Em: All right. Kate: ACOTAR. I DNF'd. I will come back to it. Okay. I know. I see your face. I know. I get it. I Em: Okay, okay, I will give you grace. I will give you grace. Kate: will come back to it. But I I also have ADHD and I struggle with the really long series. And so like we I think Rachel and I both started with fourth wing, right? or at least I did. Rachel: Well, technically I start technically I started with Outlander, really. Like but that was years ago. That was years ago. And so Kate: I guess that's true if we're gonna yeah, many years ago. Em: Great those. Rachel: but in my recent spiral and like foray into Bookstagram and Book Em: Yeah. Rachel: Tok, yes, Fourth Wing. Kate: Right. Yeah. So like I don't know, I got into this, this spiral of like I was just devouring these books and so it was just tough for me, like I don't know, it just felt like there was so much else to read and then I kept reading the same characters and I just like needed a break. And then that break ended up coinciding with Rachel and I starting a podcast. And then it was like, Well, now I don't have any fucking time Em: Haha so real, hey Kate: to do to go back and like re you know, we just have so much other thing there's so much to read. It's just hard. So I thought I would Em: In time. Kate: circle back quicker than I did. I'm still planning to, but yeah, Rachel loves to remind me that I'm a disappointment. Em: She's like FYI, I'd still keeping tabs on this, okay? Like Good, good. Kate: Yeah, right. She she reminds me probably weekly, honestly. Rachel: I just really enjoy like trolling her on the internet really. Kate: Well, 'cause like, you know, in this space Em: To be fair, I do Kate: it it does feel kinda sacrilege to to have not finished the and I I haven't finished Em: No, I know but Kate: any of her series, but Em: okay. Kate: I know. I can't Em: Look, I mean, each to their own. Yeah, we're all on our own journey. and don't you're not the only one. I know a lot of people that are also reading Throne of Glass for the first time or ACOTAR for the first time. And even just getting like secondhand experience of people reading it, I'm like, I wanna reread it now. Like savour it. Savour it as long as you can, in my opinion, but just not too long. Kate: Yeah, I mean some of those are hefty. I mean, I just saw Rachel Em: Yeah. Kate: did some some research of how how long it would take to get through all of the books with an audiobook, right? And some of those books, did I see it 35 hours? Em: They are. Yeah. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're thick. Em: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kate: Okay, so so my attention Em: They're they're fat. Kate: span does kind of cringe at that, but I'll get through it. I can do it. I just Em: She can do it. I believe in you. Kate: I just need a little bit of time and some breathing room. I Em: Fair enough, fair enough. Kate: don't know. Em: Pressures off. If it's gonna help you read it, then pressure's off. Kate: Ha ha ha. Rachel: Mm-hmm. All right, so I feel like we we know who you are as a reader now. We know how you got here. Em: Yeah. Rachel: so let's chat about the BookList. What Em: Mm-hmm. Rachel: is it? How does it differ from other review platforms? Like give us all the all the good details. Em: So I'm there's a couple of moving parts to how do I how Rachel: Okay. Em: I explain this. I will first just say that it is a true reading companion, end-to-end. It it you discover books, you will learn about who you are as a reader, and you can leave reviews, and you will have your whole reading life and who you are as a reader looking back at you on a screen. You'll be able to look at it and see who you are and break it down. And The biggest factor in all of that is that the star rating doesn't exist. It's not there. It's it's gone. You will never see a star unless it's the logo. I know it's kind of ironic. but we've got I've gotten rid of star ratings. And to to just also put a note out that if you use star ratings, that's amazing. I never ever want someone to feel like they need to completely jump ship on a system that they feel that works. If that is you. I love that. I love that that works for you. But when I joined the book space, I looked around the room and I felt like that there were enough of us that said and agreed with the fact that there was something missing in Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: how we understand ourselves, other readers, and how we understand books and why we like them, I guess. and I guess for me, and I'll kind of like talk about why a star rating doesn't work from my perspective and From what I've observed, they are very subjective. And no one is leaving a review with the same marking rubric. Rachel: Mm. Em: An example, I read when the Moon Hatched quite early on in my reading journey as an adult, and I rated it three stars. But then someone else read the book and rated it five stars. I knew that I was not the target audience when I read that book because it is so lyrical and dense and heavy world building. And having ADHD, my attention span was like, wait, hang on a second, I gotta take notes. And that's not to take away from the story at all. It is beautiful and heartbreaking and all it it is epic. But I was not the target audience for that. And I understood that and I respected that. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: But then I would still recommend it to people in a heartbeat to the right person, because that is like God tier for them. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: it's just, it highlighted, it really highlighted for me as well that nobody actually understands what they're looking for in a book. Or very few people do. And very few people understood what their makers and breakers actually were and actually named them out loud. And It comes down to we all read for different reasons. Like we are all looking for something entirely different. We have different life experiences, we have different personalities. We are craving different things and chasing different feelings. And the star rating does not describe that. It does not describe Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: who you are as a reader at all. And it kind of goes around a yes or no question. The yes or no question is should you recommend it or do you re do you recommend it to somebody? Do Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: you are you putting the book in someone's hand or are you not? That's yes or no. A rating out of one to five, in my opinion, doesn't answer that question at all. and there's very little structure on how people actually write their reviews to help people determine that for themselves. And it just It made me go, why is there nothing else that no, why are there no tools out there with especially the trajectory that the reading space is in and how fast it's kind of moving? Why are there no tools that are gonna give us this exact thing and help, I guess, cultivate a healthier bookish relationship, reader to reader, read it to book, reader to author. and like don't get me wrong, the the book space is incredible. It is so welcoming and inclusive, but there are some places where people will leave a review. It is hateful towards the author. It is Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: not constructive. And then it shames the people who liked the book. And that all has come down to mismatched expectations and them not being the target audience for that book and being okay with that. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: I was like, my is strong injustice and sensitivity was like. I'm not okay with this. This is not sitting right with me. and I guess that it comes down again to as well factoring in that the platforms who have places where you leave reviews don't monitor any of that. There's no protection Rachel: Right. Em: for things that are completely uncalled for and can sometimes pretty much lead into bullying. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: and I was like, nah. This is this is not it. That is a that is a working component of my big why is just finding a healthier way to, I guess, leave reviews, discover books, and understand and give the readers in the room the tools to understand what they're actually looking for and give them a name for who they are. and it's not about books being good or bad, it's about Books being right or wrong for you. Again, being the right person to read the book. And it's gonna help hopefully have books land in the lap of the right person. And then Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: also give you a perspective of like, well, if I'm not the right person, that's okay, but who would it be for if it wasn't for me? Rachel: Mm. Em: In a way. and it's can it kind of I'm going on a tangent again. If we go back to, I guess. The app and what it will be is completely community driven. It it's it's more than just people leaving reviews. It's leaving reviews in a structured format that the more people leave reviews, the more refined the data on that book gets, and the more that's gonna end up with the right person time and time again. Like you will literally be able to search, you know, a list that someone's made that feels like this book or like a specific. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: things that someone has named that's in a particular book, you'll be able to hit that at a search bar and find that exact thing. it's it is a working beast. it's kind of like a dating app for books, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: but also not at the same time. like there are components in it that it's kind of like you've got your checklist and you'll be able to work out if the book can do and and match that checklist for you with Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: within, you know. A couple of glances, but also at the same time not limit you in, you know, if you want to branch out and read something completely brand new that you've never done before, you still can. It's there's not it it's no lock in box that you will ever fit into. but you'll also know exactly who you are. So Rachel: Wow. Em: yeah, it's it's there's lot. Yeah. Rachel: Wow, I mean, that sounds like something we need, certainly. I we one of the first, it might have been our first episode, I'm not sure. One of the earliest clips that we ever put out on the internet. Thank God it didn't go viral, but it it people were not happy with us because Em: God. God. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: our stance was if we liked it, we're giving it five stars. And like it wasn't it was what you're describing of. Do you recommend it? Yes or no? And it Em: Yeah. Rachel: just kills us, especially it has this happens a lot with indie books that people are just so they're holding it to like such a high standard. Like it's not an eight-book epic fantasy series. Maybe it's just a spicy Em: Yes. Rachel: standalone. And I freaking loved it. Why wouldn't Em: Yeah. Rachel: it be five stars? You know, and it's just it's not fair to the authors and it's not fair to the readers who are looking for that type of thing. Em: Exactly. And Kate: Right. Em: I think it comes down to like comparison is like your biggest enemy because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: every book is going to fulfill something different. And they're not all going to be written the same, have the same tone, have the same story. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: the people who leave reviews in that way are doing the book and the future readers of that book a huge injustice because that's not Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: fair. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I I love this concept. I was so excited when I heard what you were Em: Yeah. Kate: trying to build because it's just like it's exactly the issue that I've had for for like my whole reading journey of that that subjectivity that comes along with these recommendations, right? Like, yeah, you have these wildly popular series like a fourth wing or an ACOTAR or whatever, where like the the hu huge consensus is that People enjoy it, right? So it's probably worth checking out. But there's plenty of people who don't like it. And, you know, and that's valid too. And that's that's fine. But you wouldn't you don't really see that if you're going and looking at the five star, you know, the the five star rating scale. You're you're not seeing the people, you don't have that context, right? Of like, should I listen Em: Exactly. Kate: to this review? Because like, am I compatible with this reader? Right. It's the same thing with like a restaurant review. I there are people that I will never ask them where I should go to eat because we don't have the same taste. And I'm not pro I'm probably Em: Exactly. Kate: not gonna like what they recommend, you know? Like what it's the same thing. Or or there's the people that are like, Well, nothing nothing can get five stars, you know? Like they they could love Em: Yeah. Kate: a book and they'll still say, Well, four stars, because there's always room for improvement. And then you're like, Okay. Em: Well Kate: Like that's again, that r it couldn't be Rachel and I, okay. We we Rachel: The Em: like okay Yeah, no, could it be me either? Kate: are not stingy with our five stars, but like, you know, that's the thing. So Em: Exactly. Kate: you like you said, you're not working on the same scale. There's no s kind of like standard metric for how you can actually gauge where somebody is coming from and the context behind their review. So I love that this is it look it sounds like it's going to give us the context that we need. Em: Hopefully. It's all well and true to Kate: Ha ha ha. Em: think it's going to work from the back end without having people actually use it to then Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: see it out in the world and see what people think. So I I just think that it's going to be able to help people make the decision for themselves in a really quick way. because you're right, if you look at the average star rating on a book. That isn't actually giving you any context on someone's actual reading experience because it is so varied across the board. And that's not to say that people who leave reviews in a way that say a four-star, it's a four-star book because there's always room for improvement. That is still a valid opinion for that person, but that doesn't discredit other people's opinions either. And I think Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: what I'm trying to, I guess, come down to is. Understanding our differences and being okay with our differences and that if the way that someone takes away a book again is subjective because we're all different people. and it's just I I just want to make the the way that we leave reviews just healthier and in a way that's uplifting because honestly, some of the way that some people leave reviews, I'm like, my gosh. That was nasty. That was mean. Like, I think Rachel: Right. Em: of it in this way: like, if you wrote a book report or an essay or a short story in high school, and a school teacher gave you a review the way that some people leave reviews, that teacher probably would have been fired. They would be fired and you would Kate: I'd be devastated. Em: be so incredibly hurt over that. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: I th I like to use that analogy as like, okay, how do I leave a book review? Leave it as if you're giving a student feedback rather than it. being attack personal attack because you had really high expectations for it. I just I just I f I hope that it can ha give us a healthier perspective on on all of this in a way. Yeah. Rachel: That's a really, really helpful way to think about it. Like for somebody if somebody's struggling with how to give a review, that's a really helpful mindset to like have them put themselves in. Em: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're all people at the end of the day. Rachel: Yeah. And I've been loving your series. You've been doing a social series on BookList about how to write a review, which is like so many of us need that lesson. Em: And yeah, and I looked her out, I looked at the the book space and the platforms and I like, no one actually gives you a how-to on how to do this. There are enough Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: people in the like the book space now as creators and readers that there needs to be a way to actually tell people how to do it rather than just going, here, go here on your own. not everyone has the skill set to be able to do that. So hopefully I'm glad it's been helpful for some people. Rachel: Yeah, I've been loving it. Kate: Yeah, I mean, for sure. Especially now that like these arcs are so popular and the indie authors really rely on the the content and the the feedback that they get from the arcs. Like I love that we're trying to give a little bit of structure to that. Em: Yeah, and I will have an entire space within the BookList that is indie only. That is all about Rachel: Mm. Em: uplifting indie authors because at the moment they are fighting with an algorithm and that's always they're always going to be overshadowed by the traditionally published or whatever's trending or whatever everyone's screaming about. There is a space entirely just for indie authors. They have their very own Discover page. whilst that is not going to be in the first version. It is something Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: I have booked out for me to really flesh out properly in 2027. because they deserve a place to have people who are specifically looking for an indie book be able to find it without having to go and sit there and scroll through like a million different things on Instagram. Honestly, social media is overwhelming enough as it is. Like they've got enough to battle with that I Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Em: want to be able to give them something that gives them a platform to go, hey, my book's in this space. So yeah. Rachel: That's amazing. That's amazing. And that seems so much more valuable than the five-star rating for indie books because what I found with indie books, and I read a ton of indie books, we have had multiple indie authors on the podcast, a lot of times they're sometimes their ratings are overinflated when they first come out because of the ARC readers and people who just like really, really love them and want to support them, which is great. So then people find these books. And it's not what they would have been looking for. And then the ratings tank. And that's so like it's just a broken system specifically for indie authors. Em: It's exactly and it's Kate: Mm-hmm. Em: it's they have a hard enough time as it is trying to step into a space. Like let's be honest, the space is oversaturated. There is a lot of there's a lot of authors and a lot of books and a lot of stories. But that doesn't mean that Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: their their their book and their story isn't deserving to be heard. and it just it it's just such a disservice to them. They they n they need a place that is gonna make it a little bit easier for them. So that's Coming later. But it's Rachel: Yeah. Em: up here. It's up here. Rachel: It's on the roadmap. Em: Exactly. this bit again? Okay. Rachel: So, tell us how did you come up with the concept of the BookList? Em: Okay, so it is give you a little bit of a h Instagram history, shall we? I joined Bookstagram in February of this year and it exploded much faster than I thought I did. I thought I thought it would. and I hit a thousand followers really fast. Really quick. I was like, whoa. so I thought I'm gonna do a giveaway because that's fun. And I ran a giveaway that was win your TBR. And I gave away eight books because I'm a crazy person. and I I wanted to give back to people because I loved the space so much, and it was giving me more than I ever thought it would. And the the way you entered was comment a book that's really high up on your TBR that you want. And lo and behold, did I think I was gonna get over 3,000 comments? Rachel: my gosh. Em: So yeah, Kate: Wow. Em: it was it was insane. Maybe my generosity just was like, yeah, I want eight books. I'm gonna put my hand up. well, I mean, to be fair, I would too. But I was then reading through all of these comments and going, there are so many books I have never heard of. And the only way for me to feasibly work out what any of it is about is to one, sit there and doom scroll for hours. Reading through reviews and hoping someone actually said the thing that I'm looking for, or sit there and scroll through Goodreads and try and decipher people's star ratings and then hope again that they'd put something in their review that was help gonna help me determine if that book was for me. So I then had an idea come in my mind that was why isn't there like just one big fat community master list? Of all the books that the people in our actual community have recommended to people. Rachel: Mm. Em: And has all of the data points that we're actually looking for, like microtropes, subgenres, specific trigger warnings, content warnings, writing style, what they thought of the pace, the spice rating, how much they had to concentrate, all of these things. And so it was like someone would fill out a form and it would hit this Google Sheet. And they'd been hemming and ring about it for ages. And I had a couple of people, because I was brain dumping on my stories, like I tend to do. If you follow me, you know that my stories are a very special subscription. Rachel: Yeah. Em: But I had a couple of people reply to me, going, yeah, yeah, this is a good idea. I think we need this. So I worked with a close group of people to Rachel: Mm. Em: work out what it would be as just as for fun project. because I didn't want to make something that was just what I thought was right. I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: wanted other people's opinions to be like, okay, no, I I think this works. I don't think we need this. How would this work out? And we were all kind of researching. And I for those if you if they are watching this, you know who you are. I will always, you are a special place person and a a special group for me, because this is where the foundation of all of this started. But we we kind of we'd made I'd made the list and I looked at the Google sheet and I was like. This looks a bit shit. Not that the not that the data Kate: Ha ha ha. Em: wasn't good. It was just that Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: it wasn't digestible. And I'm thinking there has to be a better way to do this. And after some research with I've got some some friends who are in like the tech space and they helped me work out a couple of things. And I actually then ended up launching a website where it was you could submit a book and it showed a card for each book and Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: all of the ratings that that person had recommended it by and why and who recommended it so that. If you browse the list, you could go to that person if you had more questions or if you wanted to see their in-depth review on on and and learn more about why they would have recommended that book. So that's where it started. I launched that Rachel: Okay. Em: in April, I think. Honestly, time is I I have such a bad concept of time sometimes. Rachel: Ha ha Em: But I'm like, what day is it? Is it Tuesday? No, it's Saturday. I don't even know. but It started there, and then as I'm working through this, I'm thinking, I'm having all of these other ideas kind of come into my mind. And I'm like, what about this? And then what about this? And then what about this? And then all of a sudden, in this one moment, I had, whoa, hang on a second. This all works together as one concept. Without stars, without, without all of the fluff and the noise to help give people the thing that. is really really needed because I looked at this idea in my mind and I was like, no one out there is doing anything like this. No one out there is filling the gap that there is very clearly a need for because I'm sitting here reading through comment threads and listening to people's reviews and listening to people's, I guess, general opinions on book space and reviews and how it all works. And I'm thinking, I'm not the only one that thinks this way. so that is kind of like where the whole concept came from. It's yeah, Rachel: Yeah. Em: it's it's been a long it's kind of just gone up and down for a little bit and it just all hit me. And I was like, Wow, okay, there we go. Rachel: So where are you today with it? Em: So I have the shell of the app done. the basic functions are all finished. it's moved quite quickly. I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: have been there's been quite a lot of personal sacrifice that's gone into trying to get it to where it's at. and I'm now at a place where it's like, okay, let's really go in and make sure that all the connections that I know need to be there are actually there. We go in and finesse. The way that it looks. I've actually recently just done a whole rescrap of the user the user interface and and what it looks like. Because I had some more ideas come to my mind. and having a neurospicy brain, the the process has been a mess. but it is now looking the way that I had always envisioned it would from the very beginning. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: And it's gonna look like you think about how reading is for us and how it makes us feel. The platforms that we have at the moment are very black and white. This is going to feel or and look the way that reading feels for us. It is, it is just gonna, it's gonna be really special. I'm I'm like giddy about it, just talking about it. Rachel: That's amazing. I mean that's moving so quickly. It whether it was, Em: Yeah. Rachel: you know, March, maybe, April maybe since the timeline pro started. Since the timeline started, Em: I don't even know. Somewhere up there at the start of the year. Rachel: I mean that's really that seems really quick, especially building in time to redo the user interface. Em: I know, I know. Well, I kind of like set it a sh a schema of like what I wanted it to actually look like. And the the platform that I use, like the without getting technical, the the coding software that I use, then use that and like rolled out the changes from there. But it's lots of pencil and paper for me. So lots of drawing. Yeah. Rachel: So have you been doing it largely on your own or do you have like a team that you've been working with? Wow. Em: It is just me. Just me. I Kate: Wow. Em: it is, I think to kind of without getting so snowed under with me starting to think about all the things that I have to do. I am doing it on my own. lots of research and lots of learning along along as we go. I am grateful that I have a really supportive husband. Mr. Bookbrat is He's the one. he has seen how much fire and how much passion there's put into me. And he understands, okay, yeah, like, sorry, I don't exist right now, do I? I'm like, no, just feed me and I'll be good. lots of, lots and lots and lots of late nights sitting. Like, I'm I'm very grateful that I have a a job that I work from home. so I'm up in the mornings on my lunch break after work. every day. Every day. It's kind of like how it rolls. and you know, we're also really grateful to be able to afford childcare in Australia. so my son goes to childcare full time. so it is it is a beast of a process. And as I said, being ADHD, it's not tidy. I have Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: pieces of paper and notebooks. strewn about my house. My phone is full of voice notes and note dumps that I'm sending to myself. And it's like I wake up in the middle of the night some nights I'm like, what about this? And I quickly write it down. Like, don't talk to me about my sleep schedule right now. Okay. It is Rachel: Yeah. Em: just my brain is is firing on all fronts. But it is just why I have to remember it's so easy to get snowed under with the the broader, I guess, concept, but I just have to remind myself that it's day by day. and we've made some pretty big progress to get to this point. So yeah, we'll see what happens. Hopefully nothing breaks. Rachel: That's amazing. That's amazing. I mean, you can tell that you feel passionately about it. And that's the thing when you feel like so passionate, it's so easy to get motivated in that way. Like even if Em: Yeah. Rachel: you are like, my gosh, I need to sleep, like I need a break. But yeah, you see the vision, right? Em: Yeah, I do, I do. And I I really, really am trying to make it a reality. Not only for me, but I think the book space and other readers need something like this. And it's whilst at the end of the day I'm like, I'm excited because I want to use it, it's it's about what it's gonna give other people too. So yeah. Rachel: So do you have like a timeline for like when we can expect not to put any pressure on you? But I'm just wondering if that's something Em: No, no. Yep, yeah. Kate: Ha ha ha. Em: So I have a goal of December, Rachel: wow. Em: which is fairly soon, but looking at how I am on my own timeline that I made, I am ahead. so we'll see. There's no guarantee Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: that that will happen though. I've got a feature cut-off for myself in November where I'm not allowed to create anything else. I'm not allowed to touch anything else, it's just finessing. Because the app stores require a kind of like a a grace period where they will go through and kind of pick it apart in a sense and make sure you hit all of the compliance that it needs to, because there's a lot in the background and things in terms of like legalities and, you know, ages and privacy policies and terms of service and all this sort of stuff that you need to be, you need to have right. So I mean I would love to it my birthday's in December. My birthday is Boxing Day. If I could get it up on the App Store on my birthday, that would be amazing. But, you know, girl can dream. So we'll see. If it's not if it's not December, it'll be early next year. So yeah. Rachel: Wow. I can't wait. Well, so what one thing one thing Em: Yeah, I'm giddy. Rachel: with the BookList that we have to make sure we touch on are the seven archetypes. Seven, right? Still seven? Em: Yes, yes, yes, yes. There are seven archetypes. Yes, yes. The archetypes are a like they are the core of all of this because it kind of goes like the archetypes and then it branches out this way. The app won't work. Your discovery won't work unless you have the archetypes. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: yeah, they're a they're a they're a a core baby of all of it. Rachel: So essentially you're defining each reader's archetype and then all of the recommendations and the way that they'll view each book is based on that, right? Okay. Em: In a way, yes, but also not locking you in in that way either. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: you could look at a book's data and see, okay, who in this who of the people that have read this book are of a particular archetype and did they recommend it? so yeah, the archetypes are like my baby. I'm I'm I'm like very, very proud of the progress that I'd made with being able to create something like that. So that was yeah, they're really cool. Rachel: So what was your process for creating them and defining them? Em: I guess again it comes back to me observing the people's reviews and the reasons that people read for. You know, you read through someone's review and all they comment on is the world building or or they comment on is how much they resonated or connected with the character. And I thought those are specific things that make that person's reviews tailored for all the other people that read for those reasons. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: I was like, why isn't there like a Myers Briggs or an Enagram for who you Rachel: Uh-huh. Em: are as a reader? Like you take away genre, what are the foundational needs that you have in a book that are gonna make it or break it for you? That also give you validation for going, this is in my breakers bucket. I, this is not for me. And you feel okay with that and also acknowledge that other readers have different makers and breakers and be like, well, that's why. So, but I didn't want to, I wanted to make something like that, but I didn't want to just, again, do it based off what I thought. So I started Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: a, I created a research survey, essentially. and I wrote it out in a way that kind of took those core themes that I'd seen in the book space to try and pull out more information from readers because I wanted to know how their brain ticked. I wanted to know how the rest of the readers in the community actually thought about when well what they were thinking about when they read a book. So I wrote it out in a way that would try and pull apart those things and and there was lots of open text answers in in that survey and reading some of them. my God, hilarious. Like like things like how would you describe your reader identity? And some of the things people say, just I'm like sitting here reading all of these answers and I'm laughing. Like just so unhinged. I was like, okay, yeah, we're getting into the nitty-gritty now. but I hit about 200 survey responses and I I wanted more than that. I really did because I wanted it to have a really good foundation. But I realized I got to a point where I was like, okay, this is only hitting a certain group of people. We're gonna have to well, let's just see what we can get out of this. So when I read through all of them and kind of mapped them back to their answers, there was a really clear separation of who people are. and from that, I ran it through an analysis software. I love reading. Statistics, I can't write statistics. So I took the data, put it in an analyst software, and then read it all that way. And I was then able to write out really specific profiles of who that person is at their core. And I did that. And then I sat back and I was like, this is still boxing someone in because we are multidimensional people. Books are multidimensional. This is too, this is too caged in. This is this is not broad enough. And then I thought, what about a like a tendency? Like everyone's got a tendency to do something or lean a certain way. So that's where I came up with the two models of primary tend primary archetype and secondary tendency. So your primary archetype is your dominant score. And your secondary tendency is the one that kind of comes up as second place. And that Rachel: Mm. Em: gives you such a clear picture of who you are and what's important to you in a book. But then I looked at that again and I was like, this still is this, I want to know more. I want to know more about this person. So that's where the full breakdown came in. I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: you not only get those two kind of identities, but you also will get a full breakdown of your entire scoring and where you sit amongst all the archetypes. Because when you look at that, you can see what is important to someone in one glance, where and how weighted that importance is for them. And hopefully one day you'll be able to look in your app and go, yep, I know who that person is, I know what they look for in a book. And then you can add in genre and all the other things on top of that. so that is where it came from. it Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: was not a smooth process. It was lots of back and forth and a lot of self-critical like critical, I guess, thought on the way I wrote questions and the way I structured Rachel: Mm. Em: it and all of that sort of stuff. But we are now over 500 responses. So it's clearly hitting with some people. Rachel: Right. Em: Yeah. Rachel: Well, we have to ask what your archetype is. Em: Okay, yeah, yeah. So Kate: Yeah. Em: I am a pace chaser with Rachel: Okay. Em: chaos goblin tendencies. So for me, I like to be like wizard through a book. I love a fast pace. that's not to say that I don't respect a book that has a slower pace. They definitely have a place, but I need to know that going in so that I know that the story. will be earned at a different pace than what I would usually like to read at. and Chaos Goblin Tendencies, I mean, if you've read the profile of the Chaos Goblin, it's it's pretty spot on. Kate: Well, Rachel and I both have, because I think that's where we both fell when we took the test. Em: Yeah. Good. I Rachel: Yeah, we're both chaos goblins, but we had different the secondary tendencies were different. And now I'm I did not make a note of what mine was, but I think it was like was there a spiraling one? Yes, I think it was that. Do you know Kate, do you remember your Em: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Rachel: secondary one? Kate: yes, hang on. I took a I took a screenshot, yeah. Rachel: 'Cause I know you took a screenshot of it, so you probably have it. Yeah. Cause we were very surprised Em: I've been trained. Rachel: by that since we both like, we don't read in the same way. Clearly, Kate's DNF'd too the greatest series of all time. Kate: Okay. I think I think once once per podcast Em: The digs come back. Kate: is enough to bring that up, Rachel. All right, so I am Rachel: I think we we talk about go ahead. Kate: I am yeah, I found it. I am a chaos goblin with escapist tendencies. Rachel: That makes sense. Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: Yes, it does. Rachel: Yeah. Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. Spi spiralists. So spiralists are all about the emotional crash out. They are there for the emotional journey and the connection to a character. Whereas the escapist Rachel: Mm. Em: is more focused, not more focused, but has more importance on the world that it's in and the world building and where you are and how you feel immersed in the pages. So Hopefully that feels like it resonates with each of you. Kate: Which it it definitely does. And I think, I mean, since we already brought it up twice, the reason that Em: Yeah. Kate: I I struggle with the longer series is because I love the world building. And then when I get a few books into a series and I feel like the world building like I I know who these characters are, I know how this world works, I know all these different pieces, then I'm like, well, now I want a new world, you know, now I want to find like Em: Yeah. Kate: discover something brand new. And so Em: Mm. Kate: not that these series don't, you know, continue to evolve and and grow. It's not like it's the same thing, but that's just like that's what gets me to kind of jump ship prematurely for things is that escapist tendency of like, I wanna, I wanna learn about a new world now that I've never heard of that will surprise me. And then I always plan to come back to this world that I really enjoyed learning about and like, you know. getting getting all Em: Mm. Kate: of that discovery in, but you know, there's so many other worlds to to discover that I I don't I Em: There is. The limit does not exist. Kate: don't always get back to it. But but I also my third because I I s I love that you provide the breakdown of like how how much I kind of fall into the different categories. So obviously Chaos Goblin is my first one, which also makes sense. Escapist, but then my third by like not a huge margin between escapist and my third one was a pace chaser, like like you are. So I think that I mean, Em: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Rachel: Hm. Kate: for me it made sense. I was like, yes, this this fits. Em: Good. I'm that's really reassuring to hear because you know, as much as people can say that yes, they identify with it, but also hearing you talk about how you read, I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're definitely a chaos goblin. Kate: Yeah. And like like yeah, listen, you don't have to convince me that hard that I identify as a goblin. I feel like that it it makes sense to me. Say less. Rachel: See, I think I think I Em: Ha ha ha. Rachel: got it because I read so many different books at a time. Like I have an audio book, a physical book, and then probably one on my phone as well. Em: Yeah, yeah. And and you know what the funniest, not the funniest, but the most interesting, I guess, correlation that came out of that research was the people when I pressure tested it with the actual foundational research that I got, I pressure tested it through this new quiz. The people who had put in their open text answers that they were neurodivergent all came out as chaos goblins. Rachel: Hmm. Em: Yeah. Kate: Yep. Em: Yep. Rachel: Maybe I should Em: And that I mean that's not to say that other archetypes aren't neurodivergent, but it was a very, very clear and I was like, okay, yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Kate: Yep, makes sense to me. And Rachel: Maybe I need to make some doctor's appointments. Em: Hey, well, I mean, just saying that we can clock each other from a mile away. So birds of a f feather flock together. All the friends that I have are all neurodivergent, so Kate: Yeah. Same same mostly. Em: Yeah, yeah. Kate: but you know, I I'm like a an analytical person too sometimes, but like not in the way that I I I'm not organized, you know, so I I feel like I I identify with your process a bit where like I want to Em: Yeah Kate: I love to dive into the data of something, but I'm not great at organizing it. So like Em: Mm. Kate: I have a market research background. So I loved hearing about the like how you went about doing this. And I do I know that, you know, if once you get over a few hundred responses, you can start to generalize with your your data. So I love to hear how many Em: Mm. Kate: responses you got. but I'm also curious because I can see the breakdown of like how I fall into all the different categories. Are you starting to see s like a kind of standard distribution of the data? Like are you seeing like a bell curve where a lot of people are falling into certain categories or is it really like a wide mix? Like are I guess are there more are there some categories that are more more popular or like more people fall into them than others? Em: Definitely, definitely there is. the three top archetypes, Chaos Goblin's number one at like thirty-seven percent or something. the spiralist and the escapist. and whilst I think from my perspective, a lot of the people who have filled out the quiz are romantasy fantasy romance readers. and I think that does tend to, whilst genre is not a part of how it was structured, it does play a part in, I guess, what those people are looking for in the people that read those kinds of books. the least common are the analyst not sorry not the analyst no the analyst the analyst the healer and the wild card and that is I guess something I'm also finessing and refining. I am not This is not like a hard like this is it. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: I've actually just done a whole re rerun of the new stuff that's come through since the full the full quiz went live. And I've got a couple of scoring points that I need to adjust to make sure that the healer and the analyst are more represented more represented. But For example, if I if more people who read only Thriller or, you know, literary classics filled out the quiz, we would probably see a surge in analysts Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: or the people who, you know, read things where they really need self-like healing and validation and, you know, a softness to it, the the healer would probably come up a little bit more. So That's it's always going to change and always evolve, but that's so far since the quiz went up, those are the the top three. Kate: Yeah, that that's really interesting. And I mean again, it it makes sense to me. We we are very familiar with the romantasy community. So I th I think we Em: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kate: we we hang out with a lot of chaos goblins, and we love it. But but you know, I'd be Em: Yeah. Kate: I'd I'd love to share the the quiz with like someone like my dad who has probably read like two fiction books in his entire life. Em: Yeah. Kate: You know Yeah Em: Be interested to see what they think. Rachel: I also think Em: And Rachel: that once you get more more people taking it that are more of like Like the book club moms, like our mom's generation who are doing like the book Em: Yeah. Rachel: clubs each month and the types of books that they're reading. I could see you getting a lot more like of the what is it, healers? He heal yeah, Em: The Hila, yeah, yeah. Rachel: I think you could get a lot more of that. I think that I Em: Mm. Rachel: yeah, I think that like the different generations read in different ways and are drawn to different types of books. Em: Exactly. And I guess it's also again coming back to it could change over your lifespan too. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: So and that's I think one of the things that is always on my mind is your archetype will never be the same. It is supposed to change through your lifespan. So you might be heavy in reading for one reason now, but in a year you might go, No, I want to start reaching for this type of book. or start Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: focusing on these types of components of a book. and the goal eventually is to be able to track your archetypes over your lifespan. and see, Rachel: that's cool. Em: yeah. And see, because again, it comes back to you not being one thing, even though you know you've got your primary, your secondary, and your breakdown, that can still change. So take the quiz as many times as you want. Rachel: Well we'll probably take you up on it because we love a quiz. What's the one, Kate? What's the Em: Please please tell me more about myself. Kate: well I I was just curious because I know you have like like a vision for the future for this. Obviously you've already been thinking about what the next iteration might look like. But what's the vision like when you kind of fully launch in maybe the end of this year, maybe early next year? Can you just Em: Ha Kate: walk us through quickly like as a user? coming to your your site for the first time, like what do you want people to be able to do? Like what how does the kind of journey work for a new user? Em: Yeah, this is a really good question. So once you've created an account, you will land on the Discover page. And without saying it is something, it is kind of like Spotify but for books. But you won't be Rachel: Hm. Em: able to read the books in there if that makes sense. It's it's you you hit the Discover page and you'll be able to search for books. If you've put in your archetype, it'll start to populate books that are in that genre of so it's kind of like genre. Archetype tropes. It's kind of like it all funnels down. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: you will be able to plan your reads based off of month or by day. you'll be able to keep track, you'll be able to write updates, you will be able to cre customize a profile, you will be able to create lists just like a playlist. And there is a whole fun section that I am going to have for next year that is just gonna really, I guess, elevate the fun components of the book space and reading. I've got some some things up here that that are gonna make it really, really fun. but it'll be a place where the longer the more you log your reviews and your reading and the more you spend in there, the more it is going to learn about you and your behavior. And and give you recommendations and suggestions and all of that based off of what you're putting in there. But again, never locking you in. You will always be able to branch out and go, I want to read something that I've never heard of before. so that is a kind of general workflow. You hit the discover page and then the planner and your lists, your profile. yeah, it's it's There's lots of working parts. Rachel: That's amazing. We need that. We need the planner specifically. Em: We do, we do, right? Yes. Cause I'm sick Kate: Yeah. We Em: of putting it in my notes Kate: need the planner. Em: app, going, what am I reading this month? I don't even know. Like Rachel: Yeah. Kate: And and we need that algorithm too, because you know, like you mentioned Spotify, right? Like that in in in my mind, I feel like I have fine-tuned that algorithm so Em: Yeah. Kate: well that it knows what my next favorite song is before I do. And Em: Yeah. Kate: I, you know, I I wish I have wished before that there was something like that for other parts of my life, you know? So I love that there is Em: Yeah, right, right. Kate: That maybe we'll get it for books. That would be very exciting. Em: Maybe we'll see. And it'll all come down to how like the community actually using it. Because as I said, the more people review and tag things in that's in the book, the more refined that data gets, and then the more it's gonna land in the right person's lap. So it's it's whilst I could build it, it's it's up to as a community, as a collective, to really make it epic. So it's kind of an onus on all of us in a way. Rachel: I love it. So what can readers do right now to be a part of this community? Is there anything they can do? Em: Yes, so I firstly you can take the archetype quiz. Learn about yourself. and if you have feedback on that quiz, put it in the open text answers at the end because I read that, I take that feedback back on board and I make changes based off of what people say. I have another survey that is up on telling me your review preferences. If you have something to say about the way people leave reviews or something that you wish was included in a review, fill out a survey and tell me. I am constantly looking at what people are saying about books, not only online, but also in my surveys. so, and that is going to help me build what the community actually needs in the space. and becoming a first edition is also still open. So a first edition will kind of be like the app's fairy godmother. you will get extra responsibilities or extra powers to Add in information that other readers need. You can add tropes and micro tropes if they're not already there. You can add point of view, chapters, like how many chapters are in a book, the chapter length, the the audiobook length. Like you will be able to add all of that stuff. And as well as as well as being I guess privy to early features before they hit the broader community. And it's always opt-in. So you could sign up and then when the launch email eventually goes out, something I have to do. You will have a choice and you will never have to stay in that forever. But once the app goes up, that's it. I will not be keeping that open anymore because there needs to be a tight knit of of people who have that responsibility. and and just resharing and talking about it and and I guess if you have questions, I love a chat, as I think we know. Even if you have a different opinion Kate: Okay. Em: to me, I am always like, yes, please tell me more. I want to learn about why you think that way. So I'm all for it. Yeah. Let me know what you think. Rachel: Amazing. I mean, I signed up for all of these things. I I I I love an exclusive club. Sign me up. Em: Yay! Yeah, yeah, she's here for it. She's like, you give me a special badge on my profile when I sign up, please. Like, yes, please. Rachel: Yes. all right, do you have time for a few rapid fire questions to wrap up? Em: Hit me. Rachel: All right. So we love to do some rapid fire questions at the end just to kind of end on a high note. So first Em: Love it. Rachel: one, last god tier read. Em: The incendiary. my god. Rachel: Yes, yes. Kate: Yes. Em: That series is not talked about enough. my god! Like Rachel: Yes. Em: I've got a few actually. The Web of Vows and Vengeance series as well by Aria Ashbrook is Rachel: Yes! Em: also amazing. I have so many. I've just got so many. There's just been such good books. So good. Bingeable. Yeah, the audiobook. Rachel: J I just read that. Yes. It the audiobook was like my god. I didn't finish this I didn't finish the other books yet. I only read the first book, but my god, so good. Em: Yeah. it's so good. So good. So many goodies. Kate: Well, and then for the incendiary, I mean not not to promote our own podcast on our podcast right now, but we are gonna be actually talking to LJ Claren. So if you have any questions for her if you have any questions after, you know, having read the book Em: Love it. Love it. I am I will. I'll let you know. Rachel: Well Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This episode will come out the week after or two weeks after LJ, right? So Kate: Yeah. Rachel: for anybody listening Em: I love that. I love it. Yeah. FYI Rachel: okay, favorite beverage andor snack while you're reading. Em: favorite beverage all up is coffee. that keeps me alive. It keeps me upright. But I don't read it while I'm read it. I don't drink it while I'm reading. 'cause I usually read at night. So it's usually a tea. snack, chocolate every single time. Every single time. Yeah. Like chips and savory food? No, I need chocolate. Thanks. Rachel: I feel ya. Favorite SJM book or series? Em: I think favourite book for me is Court of Silver Flames. Purely because of, Rachel: Nesta girly. Em: yeah. I think I read Court of Silver Flames at a really, really personal, deep, hard time in my life. And I looked at Nesta and I was like, wow, I am you. I am you. And just watching someone be messy and work themselves out in a loud way, I was like, damn. You've just healed some part of me. So I literally have a tattoo for Nesta and all that she did for me. She pulled me out of postpartum depression, like single-handedly. So she Kate: Wow. Em: will always hold a place for me. But like, can you go? Queen of Shadows and Throne of Glass for me is also like, I was like, okay, here we go. Here we go. Yeah. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Em: Those are those are my, I think, my top two. Rachel: All right. which is your favorite bat boy? Em: I'm gonna say Cassian. I'm gonna say Cassian. I don't get me wrong, Rhys is still great. But I like a man who's a little rough around the edges. So and a little bit mean sometimes. so yeah, I th that's my man. Rachel: I mean, there's a reason you like the incendi or well, I guess the Selvaren series. Yeah. Yeah. Em: Yes, exactly, exactly. Rachel: what FMC would you like to spend the day with? Em: Manon, hands down. Hands down, Manon. Or Nesta. I know this is very SJM heavy, I think, given the current news that's come out recently. So Rachel: Yeah. Em: I'm very, very focused on that. But like out of the SJM world, probably Lena from Lies of Lena. Well, that's my that's my greatest series of all time, if I'm gonna be honest. Rachel: Really? Okay. Em: yeah. They it is me in a book and I think I'm suede because she's ginger. So there there's Kate: Yeah. Em: that component, but that whole that whole series for me, I'm like, yeah, bury me with that, thanks. Rachel: Who is your number one book boy friend? All all book boy friends, not just SAM. SJM. Yeah. Em: All but boyfriends? Rachel: Out of out of all the all the book boy friends out there. Yeah. Em: Out of all of them. I don't see this is the thing. I've never been able to write a list. I think going based off of bias for my love for Lies of Lena, Silas Larune is number one, purely because I love that series. Number two is Darius, hands down. if it wasn't for Lies of Lena, Darius would be from Zodiac Academy would be, would be my my top tier. Yeah. Rachel: Also haven't read Zodiac Academy. Em: okay. Mind you, Zodiac Academy is a beast, so you Rachel: Yeah. Em: know, you need to be you do need to be prepared for it. It did take me six months. but Rachel: Wow. Yeah. Em: I mean I only read at night, so I'm not as fast as some people, but you're Darius. Mean, passionate, fiery. Can't go wrong. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: Ooh. Okay, okay. I'm sold. Kate: Sounds good. Sounds good. Rachel: Fantasy world you'd most like to live in. Em: Hmm, I mean, I wouldn't survive in any of them if I'm gonna be honest. Rachel: Yeah, I feel ya. Em: I I would be the one that everyone was saving. but I guess in a way, I fantasy world that I loved the most. I did really like the world in heavenly bodies. I don't know if either of you have read that book. It is so Rachel: Mmm. Kate: Not yet. Em: beautiful and It's like light like the moon and the sun and it's very fairy tale and it the way it's written, I was like, this is so pretty. I'm gonna be here because I feel like I'd be safe and I would probably live. So that's probably the place I would go to. Rachel: That does sound lovely, especially compared to most of these worlds like where it's like there's scary things. Em: Yeah, it was very good. Yeah, seriously. Right. Rachel: Favorite underrated book? Em: The Lies of Lena. I'm gonna say it for the 50th time. Rachel: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Em: It is, I like to describe it as kind of like a spicier, vibier version of Throne of Glass. In a way. it's Rachel: Ooh, okay. Em: got elements that we like in Throne of Glass, but honestly, some of the best spice scenes I've ever read. Not that that's the only thing I read for, just to preface, I'm not, you know, that's the only thing Kate: Go on. Em: I care about. Please tell me more. Kate: Say more. Em: The probably the most insane spice I think I've ever read was in book two. I was like, I'm sweating. I'm like looking around going, does anyone know I'm reading right now? but yeah, that series is so underhyped. Kylie is, I love the way that she writes. It's like a movie. Like it feels like a movie, but not in a way that feels like it's in your face. it's Rachel: Mm. Em: just Chef's kiss. Rachel: How many books are in the series? Em: So there's three out at the moment. She's actually in the process of being traditionally published. I'm all up on the Kylie Goss. So Rachel: Okay. Em: she's got book one and two out, traditionally published. Book two point five is out indie. And then she's got it's going, I think it's going to be six or seven books. Rachel: Okay. Em: and when you get to the end of book two, you're like, okay. Okay. We're in for a ride, aren't we? yeah. Rachel: like the last thing I need right now is a new series to read, but like you have me hooked. No, I'm interested. Em: Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, it it's at Kate: But I can but I can get like good spice it by book two. That's that's good. They're not gonna make me wait for that long. Em: Well, there's there's spice in book one. There is there is spice in book one, but the whole series is just a mess, if I'm gonna be honest with you. Like it's lovers to enemies to we don't know. so and there's a lot of there is a lot of trauma and there's a lot of heavy heavy hitting topics in it, but it's just so good. It's just so good. Rachel: I I'm sold. Em: Done. Rachel: Alright, last question. The next few months are just going to be mayhem when it comes to romantasy releases. Em: my god, isn't it? Rachel: What is your most anticipated upcoming release? Em: Burn of the Everflame. I'm I have been hanging on of that frickin' cliffhanger from heat. I read Rachel: Yes. Em: it as an indie and it's like two years of sitting on that. I'm I need the I need answers. Rachel: my gosh. Em: I cannot wait. I I am ready, hoping for a Luther Revenge Tour. So we'll see. Rachel: Yeah. Em: But that's what I'm I think most looking forward to. As w obviously as well as like the Maasverse and SJM. but yeah, they're my they're my h my heavy hitters at the moment. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there's so many good ones. Kate's in the middle of reading Heat right now. And yeah. Yeah. Kate: I am. It's a beast of a book though. It's so big. Em: Isn't it? Isn't it? It's I read that and I inhaled Kate: But yeah, I've I'm enjoying it. Em: that. I inhaled that series, and the people around me who've read it recently are like, wow. read by Eb, I'm gonna do it call out. She is like the Kindred's Curse Girl. like if you if I was to describe her as a person, it's it's spark of everflame. Every every opportunity she gets to talk about it, she'll talk about it. That and the Selvaren series by LJ. so If you if you ever want to spiral about Spark of Everflame with someone, hit up hit up Eb. She's insane and I love her. Rachel: Amazing. We'll have to I don't I don't know if I've met her yet. I'll have to look look her up. Yeah. Em: I'll I'll send I'll send you her details. Rachel: Amazing. Kate: A new bookfriend Em: Yay. Rachel: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was great. I loved giggling with you, but also also hearing so much about the BookList. I mean, this sounds like something we really, really need and I I'm so excited to be able to use it hopefully soon. Em: Hopefully, thank you for having me. I was so stoked to just be able to be like, someone wants to talk about BookList with me? okay, good luck to them. Rachel: Ha ha. Em: So it was honestly such a privilege to be asked to come on and have a chat. So and I love chatting with you both. anytime you want to have a little yawn about something, let me know. Rachel: All right. Yeah, we might we might have to hit you up again Kate: We will definitely take you up on that. Em: Please do. Rachel: for for sure. can you tell us where our listeners can find you? Em: so I am predominantly on Instagram. Bookbrat Rachel: Okay. Em: is underscore bookbrat or the BookList HQ. my DMs, you can reach out via the website if it's BookList related. We've got a I've got an email address up there. TikTok is like my abandoned baby at the moment. I'm on there every now and then, but I like Instagram more, so that's the main place you'll find me. Probably spiraling about something on my stories, let's be honest, or being a being an idiot. So Rachel: Amazing. Well, to our listeners, thank you for joining us today. If you haven't already, be sure to listen to our deep dive into The Silversmith, as well as our interview with LJ Claren herself. Kate: And if you enjoyed yourself, we would be so thankful if you could take a moment to subscribe and rate us on your favorite podcast platform. Your positive reviews go a long way to helping us reach a larger audience. And if you want to connect throughout the week, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube at Deep Trope Podcast. Rachel: See you next week. Kate: Bye.