Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 9. Interview with Jennie Nash: Breaking Into the Writing Industry

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9. Interview with Jennie Nash: Breaking Into the Writing Industry · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:07
  Welcome to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction and nonfiction that will wow your readers, broken down step by step.
• 0:20
  This show explores writing techniques and shows you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writing careers and coaches writers live on their pages so you can learn and transform your own storytelling.
• 0:31
  Whether you're just starting out crafting, editing, or currently rewriting your first book or maybe even your 10th, this show will help you unlock the writing skills you didn't know you needed but you definitely do.
• 0:45
  I'm looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas.
• 0:48
  from your mind onto the page in an exciting way for both you and your readers so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams while having fun doing it.
• 0:58
  Let's dive in.
• 1:05
  Welcome.
• 1:05
  Welcome to the day of inspiration, our very first live event for the summit.
• 1:11
  Come on into the zoom room.
• 1:13
  Come celebrate with us.
• 1:15
  What's it like where you are?
• 1:16
  Suzy Vadori?
• 1:18
  It's foggy.
• 1:19
  I'm in Santa Barbara, California, and this is our fog season.
• 1:23
  So half of our days are foggy, and then they become sunny.
• 1:27
  Awesome.
• 1:28
  Well, welcome everybody.
• 1:29
  Well, thank you all for taking time out of your day, spending this time to get inspired about your writing.
• 1:36
  Okay, so I cannot be more excited to have all of you here to have Suzy Vadori Nash.
• 1:41
  She's the founder and the CEO of Author Accelerator, which is a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry.
• 1:49
  And she's the author of 12 books.
• 1:51
  In three genres, right?
• 1:53
  So maybe you guys want to know how she did that, um, including the blueprint for a book series, which teaches framework for laying a strong foundation for a novel, a memoir, or a nonfiction book.
• 2:05
  Author Accelerator has trained over 250 book coaches.
• 2:09
  I'm one, uh, and Shannon on my team is one as well.
• 2:12
  Through their book coach certification program, Suzy Vadori's own book coaching clients have landed top agents, six figure book deals and spots on the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal bestseller lists.
• 2:23
  Suzy Vadori, welcome.
• 2:25
  I first met Suzy Vadori when you were hosting a summit, much like this one about four years ago in 2020.
• 2:31
  I just happened to see an ad for it, I think, or it came across my desk and I joined the summit.
• 2:36
  And you were hosting some of my, like, biggest idols in the writing industry and the coaching industry.
• 2:44
  And I went to that event and I was so starstruck.
• 2:49
  And, and then during, right?
• 2:51
  And then, and then during 2020, I actually had the opportunity to become certified and become a book coach.
• 2:59
  And then I first asked Suzy Vadori to interview with me when I launched my Wicked Good Fiction Bootcamp in 2021.
• 3:05
  And can I tell you, Suzy Vadori, I was so nervous to ask you.
• 3:08
  Like, just, like, absolutely, I was so thrilled that you said yes.
• 3:12
  I was so excited to talk with you.
• 3:13
  I think I maybe blacked out.
• 3:14
  I don't know.
• 3:16
  A couple years later, here we are.
• 3:17
  I'm still starstruck.
• 3:18
  You are, like, incredible.
• 3:20
  You were my absolute first call when I was talking about hosting this event.
• 3:24
  I knew that I wanted to have you here.
• 3:26
  to celebrate with me this podcast.
• 3:29
  So thank you for coming.
• 3:31
  Wow.
• 3:31
  Well, thank you for all those sweet words.
• 3:33
  And here we are.
• 3:34
  We're now colleagues.
• 3:35
  So that's what happens.
• 3:36
  You start something and then you become one of the people inspiring others.
• 3:40
  So it's awesome.
• 3:41
  You're still my absolute mentor and so supportive of this, what you do to support.
• 3:46
  Our writing community, our inspired writers and new writers that I work with is absolutely so appreciated.
• 3:52
  Okay, so let's dive in.
• 3:54
  Let's do it.
• 3:55
  Yeah, many writers and listeners that I work with.
• 3:58
  Share with me that writing a book is way harder or is taking much longer than they think it should or that they thought it was going to.
• 4:07
  Do you hear this from writers as well?
• 4:09
  And why do you, if you do, like, why do you think that is that it takes longer to write a book than we think it's gonna?
• 4:16
  Yeah.
• 4:17
  Well, I mean, it's, it's a big question.
• 4:19
  I, it's the whole reason I started my business in fact, because.
• 4:25
  Yes, I hear it from writers every single day.
• 4:28
  And what I came to see is that when people start out, they think that they know how to write a book.
• 4:34
  And, and I've thought so much over the years about why we tend to think that way.
• 4:39
  And.
• 4:40
  And I think it's because we read books all the time.
• 4:43
  We love books.
• 4:44
  We probably have been reading books under the covers with a flashlight since we're a child.
• 4:49
  And we're so familiar with them and we love them so much and we know how they work.
• 4:53
  We know what it feels like to be immersed in the story and to be having that experience of escape in a novel and, and to be in it.
• 5:04
  And it's so easy to think that when we know how to then.
• 5:08
  Execute that to know how to actually do it, to know the skills and things that we need to, to perform in order to create that thing.
• 5:17
  And the truth is that it's a very complex intellectual undertaking to write a book.
• 5:23
  It involves, I don't know the number, but it's just a massive number of decisions that have to be made to, to write a really good book.
• 5:33
  And so the, the whole reason I started a book coach training and certification program was because I saw that writers needed help.
• 5:42
  And I saw that the help that they typically were seeking out wasn't effective.
• 5:50
  Yeah.
• 5:51
  Yeah.
• 5:51
  I just love that.
• 5:52
  Um, I haven't heard it phrased that way, but just the immense number of decisions that have to be made to write your book.
• 5:59
  And it's not just about sitting down.
• 6:00
  I mean, I can guarantee that every writer here has an idea for their book and that it's amazing.
• 6:06
  Right.
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  Their idea for their book is probably great.
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  I mean, if it's so exciting that you're willing to put thousands of hours and sit your butt in the chair and like explore it in your brain, it's probably awesome.
• 6:18
  The thing is, is how many of those decisions are you willing to make?
• 6:22
  And as we know, like it's easy to get overwhelmed because that's exactly what overwhelm is, is like you haven't made a decision, right?
• 6:28
  Yeah.
• 6:29
  It's decision fatigue.
• 6:31
  It's like, yeah, you've Yeah.
• 6:32
  And what's tricky about it is that usually if you have an idea, it exists in your head.
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  You can see it.
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  You can, you can see it in 3D.
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  It's right there.
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  You feel like you could touch it almost.
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  And then when you start putting it on the page and you're, you're making those decisions about, well, where do I start?
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  Where do I go from there?
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  What, how do I develop this character?
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  What's plot?
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  What's the scene even down to what is the best word choice for this sentence to convey this thing I want to convey.
• 7:03
  And yeah, overwhelm is, is very typical because it's like too many decisions.
• 7:10
  Yeah.
• 7:10
  And you could tell when a, when a writer, when I get pages from a writer and they're kind of vague and wishy washy, I will put in the margin, Hey, I see you haven't made a decision on how this magic works yet, or whatever they're talking about.
• 7:23
  And they're like, do that.
• 7:25
  And it's just, it's really obvious.
• 7:26
  And even if you don't, you know, if you make those decisions, you don't have to share all of the details with the reader.
• 7:33
  But if you, the writer knows everything you write will make more sense.
• 7:36
  Everything will be more specific.
• 7:38
  Everything will kind of hang together in a different way, even if you're not going to reveal the big, you know, prize yet or the big information.
• 7:46
  Um, so yeah.
• 7:47
  Well, and, and what people probably know for sure is that when the writing is going well, What it feels like in your body is being in flow it you're not Stopping and thinking of the mechanics of how you're writing.
• 8:05
  You're not stopping and thinking.
• 8:07
  Oh, I mean, this is a really simple example, but you know noun verb or or I'm writing in past tense or you're not thinking about those things things are all the decisions that you are making.
• 8:22
  You're just, you're just in it.
• 8:23
  You're just in the flow.
• 8:24
  And that's the joy of writing that we probably all have experienced.
• 8:29
  Otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about wanting to write a book.
• 8:32
  It's, it's that thrill of.
• 8:35
  Everything clicking and the gears are all turning and you're not grinding away at what, you know, how do I actually do this?
• 8:42
  And, and stuckness, I think usually comes from that just focus on, on the how and the, and the what, rather than the, the doing it, the being in it.
• 8:55
  Yeah, I love that.
• 8:55
  And I'll just take a moment because in the comments, um, there's a big discussion going on.
• 9:00
  People are like, yeah, decision fatigue.
• 9:02
  Kim C talked about ADHD, making that even more difficult.
• 9:05
  Um, the second hardest thing for me to do is start writing.
• 9:08
  The hardest thing is to stop.
• 9:09
  All right.
• 9:09
  John says he's in flow.
• 9:10
  That's awesome.
• 9:11
  Um, so yeah, there's a big conversation going on.
• 9:14
  So I think we've struck a chord.
• 9:16
  And, and just talking about that, I know for myself, I was a business executive for 20 years.
• 9:21
  I worked in operations, which meant I worked in finance and I worked in products and I worked in marketing and I worked in all kinds of things.
• 9:27
  I basically ran companies right as a chief operating officer.
• 9:30
  And people say to me, that is so weird that you're a book coach now, like what are you doing?
• 9:36
  And for me, it's not that weird because this is one more thing.
• 9:39
  And that's why I think Suzy Vadori, your process is so fascinating to me and your philosophy on it.
• 9:43
  Because it's this big nebulous thing with thousands and thousands of decisions and for me I think in matrices and so like to plug it all in and to figure it all out and to take that time to help people not to give you a huge dissertation on what goes into a book but then the next step is to take that and to create steps for writers to be able to implement it and so it doesn't feel so overwhelming right one thing at a time.
• 10:12
  That's exactly right.
• 10:13
  And, you know, you have to take into account your own, you know, you came from that particular background.
• 10:19
  I saw a comment in the chat.
• 10:21
  Somebody was saying it's harder when you have ADHD, you know, other people are, have other situations that they're, the environment or the context in which they're writing, which could be everything from literally five children in your house that, that need lunch, How To, you know, having some sort of neurodivergent brain, to maybe you grew up in a culture that doesn't believe women should speak up, to maybe you had a father who didn't think you had anything worth saying, like, all of these contexts and backgrounds And maybe you're a lawyer and you're not supposed to describe, you know, the setting or that's how you've been trained.
• 11:08
  All these things that we bring to the writing of the book matter, because that those are the things that we both.
• 11:16
  Are working with in a positive way and the things that maybe we're working against when we're, or trying to, to get this work done.
• 11:25
  So I think understanding that there are all these decisions that have to be made.
• 11:31
  It is a really hard thing that you're trying to do.
• 11:34
  It's much harder to do than it is to experience as a reader.
• 11:39
  But then also this, this idea of what are the particular ways or things that are contributing to my feeling overwhelmed, or my feeling stuck because they're going to be different for every person.
• 11:52
  And what you can leverage is going to be different for every person.
• 11:56
  Your logical brain is so helpful in, in the writing of a book.
• 12:00
  And, you know, other people have other things that they bring.
• 12:04
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:05
  And I think that's what's so amazing.
• 12:07
  And part of the reason I think I'm going to be a book coach forever, I've done a lot of different things in my life, is that it is so challenging.
• 12:14
  And what, what I do is work with each writer and understand what things are they bringing to the table.
• 12:20
  Like I was going to ask you and you kind of answered it already, but I have so many writers come to me from a different industry wanting to break into this and wanting to learn.
• 12:29
  Do you think that that makes it harder for them or could it maybe be an asset?
• 12:35
  I think it's a hundred percent an asset.
• 12:37
  I'm just looking at the, the chat flow and it's, it's so great.
• 12:42
  I mean, you just see that there's elementary school teachers and someone who works as a payroll manager, someone who works as a gas station cashier, someone who in traditional Chinese medicine, I mean, really different backgrounds and experiences.
• 12:58
  I think sometimes the self-doubt comes from thinking that everyone else is X, you know, fill in the blank with X.
• 13:06
  Everyone else trying to write a book has an MFA was an English major, has English as their first language.
• 13:13
  Like whatever the thing is that you sort of think, well, I'm not that, and then, and then that comes into your brain as well.
• 13:22
  It should be that and that what I am isn't useful or helpful or.
• 13:26
  You know, any of those things, but all of these experiences, these life experiences and what we do and what we bring to it matter so much.
• 13:35
  And they, they are what make the books that we write in the stories that we tell rich and varied.
• 13:41
  And, and, I mean, part of what I love about, you know, Being in the world of books, which is the pleasure that I have my career to be here and you too, is that it allows us to know other people in a way that is impossible in real life.
• 14:02
  I mean, in real life, I think about, I think about real life all the time because, because, but you know, in real life, the conversations we have are about.
• 14:12
  Health insurance and you know, who's going to pick up the thing at five o'clock and is our plane ticket, you know, it's like logistics of life.
• 14:22
  And maybe if you carve out a little time to, to sit down with a good friend, you get to have a deep conversation about what you're feeling or what you're thinking or philosophy or what life is like.
• 14:35
  But when we sit down and read a book, we get to be immersed in that we're having a conversation with that writer and we're getting a sense of, oh, this is how other people think.
• 14:47
  This is how they feel.
• 14:48
  This is how they process.
• 14:49
  This is how they move through the world.
• 14:51
  You get to.
• 14:53
  As close as is humanly possible step into someone else's way of being in the world and it's so it's not only pleasurable and enriching.
• 15:03
  I think it makes the world a better place because we're building empathy.
• 15:08
  We're.
• 15:08
  You know, we're, we're getting a sense of what the rest of the people are thinking or feeling.
• 15:16
  And so if you tap into that, whatever you have, that is your experience.
• 15:21
  It is your background.
• 15:22
  That is your thing.
• 15:23
  That's the, your superpower.
• 15:25
  And that's what people are coming to your book for.
• 15:29
  So instead of thinking, Oh, I, I don't know these other things think about what do I have?
• 15:34
  What do I know?
• 15:35
  What do I understand about being human about whatever it is you're writing?
• 15:40
  It might be love or God or magic you mentioned or you know, whatever thing there's something you know about that that nobody else does and tapping into that is where you get your power.
• 15:54
  Absolutely.
• 15:55
  And I think the writers that I see that take off, I was going to say that, you know, I used to think that I could tell whether a writer was successful and, you know, I hear editors say this or agents definitely have to like take a look at the writing sample and be like, okay, yes or no.
• 16:12
  Right.
• 16:12
  And I used to think that I could tell from a writing sample, from a writer's first pages, whether or not they had what it takes or whatever that whatever that noise means.
• 16:23
  And I've learned over the years of working so deeply with writers that that is not an indication at all.
• 16:31
  The things that you just spoke about, that it factor, what are they bringing to the table?
• 16:37
  And if they can, sometimes people say, you know, when they do a course with me, or they work with me, or they work with another book coach, It's like they were given permission to be themselves, right?
• 16:47
  You don't need my permission, by the way, just go and do it.
• 16:49
  Be unapologetically you because that's what, you know, that's, what's going to make it.
• 16:55
  And that's why I try to do that.
• 16:57
  It's a hard thing to do.
• 16:58
  I'm not saying it's easy, right?
• 17:00
  So I've built my book coaching business.
• 17:02
  I built it around, you know, my personality and what feels right to me and helping people All of the writers.
• 17:09
  And when you write your books, if you can tap into that, you still need to learn the skills.
• 17:13
  Um, so that you're, but you're opening pages.
• 17:17
  If you don't have all those skills, they don't scare me anymore.
• 17:20
  'cause I know I can teach that.
• 17:21
  That's learning.
• 17:22
  Yeah.
• 17:23
  Yeah.
• 17:23
  It's, the skills are table stakes.
• 17:26
  You have to know your grammar, you have to know the language of story and narrative design.
• 17:31
  You have to know all those things.
• 17:33
  But the, what differentiates a good book from a great book, and, and I describe a great book as one that other people want to read, is that.
• 17:43
  There is Something of you that comes out in that story, something of your voice and what you're knowing, your wisdom, your way of looking at the world, and no one can teach you that, and no one can take that away from you, but it, it is the hardest thing to capture because I think so many of us are Spend our days and our lives being told in some way, shape or form that it doesn't matter.
• 18:16
  And that there's, there's something not worthy in what we know or see or believe or the stories tell.
• 18:23
  We want to tell.
• 18:24
  And that that's the hardest work.
• 18:28
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:29
  And, and I got to say, you know, today I've got some writers coming on that I can't wait for you to meet who have, you know, started just like you guys with a dream to write a book and then have gone on to huge success, right?
• 18:42
  And I've also made sure that I brought writers who are in the middle of that process and going to share with you what that feels like too.
• 18:49
  Because yes, you know, there, there is that potential for huge success to become, you know, a millionaire or whatever, whatever your dream is.
• 18:59
  But writing this book and getting your voice out there, it's going to open doors that you haven't even thought of yet.
• 19:06
  And I don't even know, I feel like a broken record because I say that a lot.
• 19:09
  But, but I hear from writers time and time again, that their life is completely different.
• 19:15
  Their life has changed like life changing.
• 19:18
  And I try not to say that in my marketing because it sounds so smarmy, but it's true.
• 19:22
  And I don't know what's going to change for you and for the listeners here, but when they finish that book, they're going to feel differently about themselves.
• 19:30
  They're going to feel differently about the world.
• 19:32
  They're going to have started a conversation.
• 19:33
  So whether or not they sell a million books, or they become a public speaker, or they become a book coach, or some path is going to change for them, but if they can tap into that authenticity and bring themselves to the writing and give themselves permission, also learn the skills so that, you know, it's table stakes so that you, your reader can actually connect with it.
• 19:54
  So, I mean, grammar and punctuation and all of those things, really all it is, is making it easy on your reader.
• 20:00
  Right?
• 20:00
  Nobody wants to wade through something that doesn't make a lot of sense.
• 20:04
  So, but you can lean on an editor.
• 20:06
  You can lean on a book coach, right?
• 20:08
  Like, like, I work with English as a Second Language writers all the time.
• 20:12
  And they'll, they'll say, Oh, you know, sorry for that.
• 20:15
  And I'm like, that's fine.
• 20:16
  Like, you know what?
• 20:17
  You can, you just might have to work with a strong editor.
• 20:20
  But if you can get your own thoughts and views down, that's what the secret sauce is really, right?
• 20:26
  Yeah, yeah.
• 20:28
  So the number one question that I get is, Can you read my writing?
• 20:34
  And let me know, is it any good?
• 20:37
  Lots of people want to know if their writing is any good.
• 20:41
  I actually spend my days dreaming up ways to help writers determine is their writing any good for themselves, right?
• 20:47
  Every course I design, every event that I plan in addition to my one on one coaching and editing is kind of core to that.
• 20:54
  And I know that the writers listening, participating today have this question.
• 20:57
  I could see it.
• 20:58
  So why do you think that is Suzy Vadori?
• 21:00
  Why do you think we need that question answered for us?
• 21:02
  And we can't see it for ourselves or we don't know if it's good.
• 21:07
  Well, I think you have to stop and ask, what, what do you mean by good?
• 21:12
  That's the first, that's the first thing.
• 21:15
  Different people.
• 21:15
  To be clear, I use that language.
• 21:17
  I use that language because it's what writers use and they see if my writing any good, I, I would never say your writing is good or bad.
• 21:23
  We just talked about that, right?
• 21:25
  Yeah.
• 21:25
  So it is what writers say and it is what writers want to know.
• 21:29
  And so the, the, what I say that is what is good, that, that you have to define what that means.
• 21:36
  So, some people, for some people, that will mean good is, I'm good enough to get an agent.
• 21:44
  It might mean good is good enough to land a big book deal so that I can leave my day job.
• 21:50
  Good, for other people, might be I just don't want to be embarrassed by putting something out in the world.
• 21:58
  I don't want to be, not feel good about it.
• 22:01
  So good can, can mean I want to feel pride in what I've written.
• 22:06
  Good can also mean it matches what's in my head.
• 22:11
  That's a huge thing for a lot of people is why can't I put on the page the story that's so sparkling and dazzling and awesome in my head and when I put it on the page it feels clunky and not awesome.
• 22:25
  So defining what good means to you and Understanding that good is going to change over the course of your engagement with your work.
• 22:35
  When you're just beginning learning how to write or learning how to write a book or learning how to write a book that's going to be read, your definition might be different than later.
• 22:47
  As you, as Susie was saying, as you get your skills under you and you give yourself permission and you're moving through the process, you're going to probably have a different.
• 23:00
  Definition of what it means.
• 23:02
  So I always think the first thing is just understanding how do I, why am I asking that question?
• 23:11
  If I'm asking the question, is my, is my work good enough?
• 23:15
  The next question to ask is.
• 23:17
  What do I mean by that?
• 23:18
  And I would add to that to be brutally honest with yourself, because usually there's some ambition behind your definition.
• 23:31
  There's something you want, there's something that that definition means to you.
• 23:36
  And not to shy away from that because shying away from that, uh, desire or that ambition is.
• 23:48
  is always going to, uh, not serve you.
• 23:52
  What serves you is, is being really honest about what you want.
• 23:56
  And, and if you can to dig even deeper into why you want it and what do you think it will get you if you were to attain that thing you want.
• 24:06
  So that very simple question, is my work good enough?
• 24:09
  You can see by my answer, Is the doorway to some very deep philosophical questions.
• 24:17
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:18
  And it's, it's generating a ton of chatter here.
• 24:20
  I saw some people talking about my writers group have, are able to do that for me.
• 24:24
  Awesome.
• 24:25
  Right.
• 24:25
  Somebody said, I know my writing is good, I just wanna know if I can improve it even more like so.
• 24:30
  So we can also.
• 24:32
  Sometimes we do know, and Amber says, I just want my story to be understood and not to make a fool of myself in public.
• 24:38
  Jeff says, my question is always, did I make a point without insulting my audience's intelligence and was it entertaining?
• 24:44
  Right?
• 24:44
  So, so good.
• 24:45
  This is making you guys think about what it means to you.
• 24:49
  And these were really, really great suggestions.
• 24:52
  Well, and I want to comment on what Jeff says right there, because he says, did I make my point without insulting my audience's intelligence?
• 25:01
  and was it entertaining?
• 25:03
  So that definition of good involves other people.
• 25:09
  And what's true about writing is that we do it alone.
• 25:13
  It's an incredibly solitary thing that we do, but It is not finished until someone reads it.
• 25:22
  It's not.
• 25:23
  I always talk about the reader closes the loop.
• 25:26
  It's like an electrical circuit.
• 25:28
  The reader closes the loop for the writer and a writer writing in isolation.
• 25:34
  is it's not finished.
• 25:36
  The thing is not finished until, until you get that reaction, until you get that, that end of the loop.
• 25:42
  And so sometimes for some people good enough does mean, so, you know, I like just that simple question.
• 25:50
  Was it entertaining?
• 25:51
  Well, that's something Jeff can't answer for himself.
• 25:55
  You know, he can't answer how it's going to hit other people.
• 25:58
  And that's where their perspective of.
• 26:01
  Professionals can come in, editors or book coaches or agents or beta readers who are well trained and they can be well trained by you.
• 26:12
  But, you know, people who can give you a sense of, is it landing?
• 26:18
  Have I done what I wanted to do?
• 26:20
  Are you having the experience I wanted you to have?
• 26:23
  Are you getting what I'm laying down here?
• 26:25
  And, and that step in the writing process is one of the hardest ones to do if you never leave your room and join a writing group or community.
• 26:38
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:39
  And I think, you know, you've mentioned professionals, absolutely.
• 26:42
  But there are writing groups and beta readers, you can get your friends and family to read it.
• 26:47
  And they might be able to tell you if it landed, but what you really need is somebody to tell you or give suggestions on maybe why it didn't land.
• 26:54
  You know, like your book Socks isn't really very helpful, is it?
• 26:57
  Rewrite the whole thing.
• 26:58
  Try again.
• 26:59
  I got a lot of that.
• 27:00
  When I first started out, I got a lot of sort of, it has promise, keep going.
• 27:05
  Well, what?
• 27:06
  Like where?
• 27:07
  Where am I going?
• 27:08
  What am I doing?
• 27:09
  Right?
• 27:09
  So that's where the professional opinion can come in is if you need those suggestions and you need those skills, you know that there's a gap.
• 27:16
  It's not landing quite the way it is.
• 27:18
  And writers can usually tell you.
• 27:20
  One of my writers came to me with an emergency edit.
• 27:23
  I like to call them, can you put it in?
• 27:26
  I thought it was good.
• 27:27
  You know, somebody who's, Published several books with big five has five editors at the place and is like I know my characters aren't likable yet And can you read it and tell me and I'm like, oh, yeah, sure So I fit it in because it's a long term client and and yeah, they they weren't likable But instead of just saying yeah, you're right.
• 27:45
  You got a problem.
• 27:47
  It's like here's why it's not working here Move this forward move this forward so that we can get more invested in your character.
• 27:54
  It'll work and she was like, oh Thank you.
• 27:56
  Great.
• 27:57
  There's a, there's a really great comment in the chat that someone is afraid to share their work because afraid they're afraid someone else is going to steal it.
• 28:06
  And I think there is a, there is a lot of new writers have that sense and don't understand that it's.
• 28:15
  Not possible.
• 28:17
  So, so what I mean by that is so it sounds like I think this is grace was saying that you probably have a great idea that that you're really excited about.
• 28:27
  And the idea is what you want to protect.
• 28:30
  But technically.
• 28:33
  Anybody can write about any idea and what you can protect is your execution of that idea.
• 28:41
  So the, I'm not a lawyer and I, I think there are some lawyers and paralegals on this call.
• 28:47
  So please don't take this as legal advice, but what you can protect is, is only your version of that thing.
• 28:55
  Your actual, the words that you chose, all those decisions that you made that get onto the page.
• 29:01
  That is yours.
• 29:02
  So if you're talking about somebody literally walking away with your manuscript or, or, you know, literally stealing your words, that's different from why this great idea and somebody else might write this great idea, they might write this great idea.
• 29:17
  And there are so many books that are.
• 29:21
  written about the same ideas or the same concepts or the same topics or the same whatever, but they're done in a different way.
• 29:30
  So the idea or the fear that someone's going to steal your idea, you can't really do anything about that.
• 29:38
  But whether they're going to steal your actual words, I used to say to people, Don't worry about it.
• 29:46
  Don't worry about that.
• 29:47
  It doesn't happen.
• 29:48
  People, people don't, you know, that's like the stuff of movies.
• 29:52
  Like someone's going to steal your manuscript and pass it off.
• 29:55
  I was just going to say, it's like one of those Hollywood myths.
• 29:57
  We can talk about all of them when I watch a movie and you're like, this is not how publishing works.
• 30:02
  We're sitting around brainstorming ideas for a book and then they go away for a weekend and write it.
• 30:06
  Right.
• 30:06
  Like there's lots of problems in the Hollywood world.
• 30:09
  Usually people don't want your ideas.
• 30:11
  I, I always have people say, Oh, I have the best idea.
• 30:13
  I'm going to give it to you.
• 30:15
  Like they're giving me this great gift.
• 30:17
  It's like, no, I don't want your idea.
• 30:19
  I want my own idea.
• 30:20
  But, um, when I say I used to tell people not to worry about it, I do have to say that my opinion has changed with the advent of AI and the new powers that it has.
• 30:32
  I, I have people stealing my books now.
• 30:36
  I get messages all the time that somebody, you know, my book is for sale in some other language that it's not for sale in or some whatever.
• 30:44
  And you know, we live in weird times.
• 30:47
  So those things do happen.
• 30:49
  Those things are out there, but you can see that I, I'm, I'm not terribly distressed about this because.
• 30:55
  There's only so much you can do.
• 30:57
  There's only so much you can worry about.
• 30:58
  There's only so much fight that you have for things like that.
• 31:01
  And I'm not going to let things like that stop me from creating or putting my work out there.
• 31:07
  Are there bad actors?
• 31:09
  Sure.
• 31:09
  But you know, are they everywhere?
• 31:12
  Are they going to, you know, is it going to harm, harm your creative spirit and work?
• 31:19
  I, I don't, I don't think so.
• 31:21
  I hope I'm not, I hope I'm not wrong.
• 31:23
  I don't think so.
• 31:23
  I mean, I, I like to say that I could, I could give out to everybody on this call.
• 31:29
  I'll give you each the outline to my next novel.
• 31:31
  Go for it.
• 31:32
  You guys write it.
• 31:33
  You could each write a novel and they would be completely different.
• 31:36
  Right.
• 31:36
  So in terms of the idea piece.
• 31:38
  And at the end of the day, you know, Suzy Vadori's talking about the fact that things do get pirated and that does happen, but as soon as your book is released, it, you know, it's going to cost them 15 or something to buy the ebook, however much you charge for it, and then they can just take it anyway, right?
• 31:54
  So you can't prevent that.
• 31:56
  What you can do is create your own persona.
• 31:59
  You can market your own books.
• 32:00
  You can make sure that people know.
• 32:02
  When it's from you and when it's not from you, that's sort of part of it.
• 32:06
  And, and I often get this question.
• 32:08
  I'm interested in your opinion, Suzy Vadori, because a lot of writers that ask those questions or hide behind it will.
• 32:15
  Want to, you know, this is another Hollywood myth that you can hide behind, let's say, a, um, a pseudonym or a pen name and then put your book out there and somebody else will market it and you never have to show up.
• 32:27
  Right.
• 32:27
  And it's very rare.
• 32:28
  It does happen, but it's very rare.
• 32:30
  And I like to talk about the fact that, you know, you have to.
• 32:33
  Come to the table with yourself and that doing that can actually prevent others from stealing your work.
• 32:40
  Yeah.
• 32:40
  I mean, yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole, what, why just lob it all the big questions.
• 32:46
  Yeah.
• 32:49
  How, how you want to show up in the world, the, the branding of the, the writer, the marketing of the writer.
• 32:55
  I mean, these are all part of the huge numbers of decisions people have to make and.
• 33:02
  There might be individual situations in which having a pen name is, is useful, but, and I do see the comments in the chat that, you know, there were scandals with agents who, who literally were asking for the same idea and these things happen for sure.
• 33:19
  But the.
• 33:20
  The industry didn't put up with that.
• 33:22
  It was shut down so fast and that agent lost her job.
• 33:25
  Right.
• 33:25
  And so I'm just saying like, that is not, it's one bad apple and it's not the way that the industry rolls.
• 33:32
  Nobody said, Oh yeah, that's fine.
• 33:34
  Yeah.
• 33:35
  I have had the experience.
• 33:38
  I I've been a coach for so long now, I think 15 years and I've had the experience.
• 33:45
  That I expect it now, and the experience is that when I have a writer whose book is being published, odds are excellent that within 3 months, either before or after their pub date, Somebody else is going to come out with a book that sounds exactly like theirs and there's absolutely no way they're going to call you in a panic and say, what do I do, Suzy Vadori?
• 34:06
  She like changed the whole book.
• 34:07
  I get that call and I'm like, you're fine.
• 34:10
  Right.
• 34:10
  And it came actually posted about that.
• 34:11
  Kim C, Hollywood often comes up with two movies that are almost the same concept, but totally different because two different studios are doing it at the same time.
• 34:18
  And what can actually happen, Suzy Vadori, is, you know, if you hit that moment, it just means that you're on trend.
• 34:25
  And here's the thing, we are not in competition with other writers, actually.
• 34:29
  We are allies.
• 34:30
  Because if somebody reads my awesome book about, I don't know, action thrillers about Spider Man, and they love it, and then they're gonna guess what they're gonna do.
• 34:42
  They're not going to never read another book like that.
• 34:44
  They're actually going to go and look for another book like that.
• 34:46
  So they've just created a reader for you and you've just created a reader for them, right?
• 34:51
  So yeah, I love that.
• 34:52
  You know, there's nothing wrong with pen names.
• 34:54
  I didn't mean to say that.
• 34:55
  There's good, there's valid reasons to use a pen name, but hiding behind it and hoping that somebody else, you know, that nobody will ever find out that you wrote it and that somebody else will promote your books for you is not a good idea.
• 35:07
  That is not a recipe for success.
• 35:09
  Okay, so what's your best advice, Suzy Vadori, for writers coming in from somewhere else to get up to speed in the writing world?
• 35:16
  Because it is this solitary exercise, right, to write a book.
• 35:20
  What's your best advice?
• 35:21
  Where should they go?
• 35:23
  Oh, gosh.
• 35:24
  Besides here.
• 35:29
  I mean, I think, I think it depends in some ways on what we talked about before, which is what they're trying to do, what they're trying to, to learn or be.
• 35:42
  And I'll give you an example of that.
• 35:43
  I taught for 13 years in the UCLA writing program, which is the, was at the time the largest adult education writing program.
• 35:53
  in the United States.
• 35:54
  And there was a teacher there, and I can't remember her last name, which is too bad, but her name was Judith.
• 36:01
  And Judith was this incredible instructor who was so good with people who were, Literally taking their first writing class.
• 36:14
  So, you know, people who were just terrified to read their work out loud or had never been critiqued, or maybe they were coming back to it after 25 years away from writing and the last time they were a writer.
• 36:29
  Some teacher took a red pen all over their paper in school, or, you know, this very vulnerable folks coming in for the first time.
• 36:39
  And she was so gifted at making a space that felt safe for them and creating the rules.
• 36:45
  I think I saw another teacher in the chat talking about how they tell their students, I think it was be honest, be kind.
• 36:53
  And be specific, you know, the, the kinds of rules that are in that space to protect writers from being trampled and to, to create the, the sort of space that makes them feel that they can do that thing.
• 37:08
  So, so she was so good at that.
• 37:11
  And I was teaching at the time, my specialty was Memoir for publication, which is very different from memoir for healing or memoir for sharing your life story.
• 37:26
  These are all great reasons to write a memoir, but I was teaching a class that was specifically.
• 37:32
  How do you write memoir for the marketplace and they, I had, I was in that slot and that was my specialty because I had done that.
• 37:41
  And so this is what I was teaching and I was coming in hot with all the tough love of don't, don't take this class.
• 37:51
  If you don't want to hear.
• 37:52
  You know, the tough love about what it's going to take and what the agents are going to say.
• 37:57
  And it was kind of brutal with memoir because people are coming there writing about the worst things that can happen to a human.
• 38:06
  And, you know, here I am saying, well, that's great, but this is what the agents are going to say, you know, so just really.
• 38:12
  different different approaches.
• 38:14
  And so knowing why you're seeking help and what kind of help you're seeking and what kind of thing that you need to learn is so important.
• 38:25
  Because if you step into that Judith's class and you're looking for what I'm offering, you're not going to have a good experience.
• 38:32
  And if you step into my class, And you want what she's offering, you're not going to have a good experience.
• 38:38
  So it's being really clear about, well, I need to learn these skills, or I know I need to learn how to do X, or I want to be around people who are striving to do Y, or, You know, I like, like, if you're listening to this podcast and, and you've come to Susie's space, you know, I like her vibe.
• 39:02
  I like her no nonsense approach.
• 39:04
  I like how kind she is.
• 39:05
  I like her Canadian accent, like whatever it is, like you gotta, what are you talking about?
• 39:13
  Right?
• 39:14
  You've got to match what you need with what you're seeking.
• 39:18
  I think there is a vast amount of damage done by, by writers who go into spaces that are not aligned with what they actually need.
• 39:31
  And that's a lot of the reason why people get so trampled and crushed is because they've just gone to the wrong space.
• 39:40
  And so this space that Susie creates is a space for people who are really new and who are wanting to get serious and wanting to try and wanting to learn and wanting to be around other people that are like Susie.
• 39:53
  that are doing that.
• 39:54
  And that's going to be different from a space where you've got people who are working on their third book for publication, you know, with the agents in place and, and all the things.
• 40:06
  And they're talking, you know, about high level marketing tactics.
• 40:10
  If you go into that space, You're, you're going to cry.
• 40:13
  So exactly, you know, and I think people are saying in the comments that they identify when you're talking about Judith and they're like, that's who Susie is.
• 40:21
  I was just laughing.
• 40:22
  Thank you guys.
• 40:23
  I like to say that, you know, when I give feedback, I give very direct feedback.
• 40:28
  Somebody said, you know, that I ripped their stuff to shreds and it's the best because it's so nice.
• 40:33
  Uh, but, but, you know, I always say if you can take something two ways, Take it in my always positive, like forever supportive voice, because I'm telling it to you to help you improve, not to cut you down, right?
• 40:47
  Yeah.
• 40:48
  Yeah.
• 40:49
  Yeah.
• 40:49
  So it's, it's knowing what you want.
• 40:51
  And the same is true, by the way, for when you are ready to show your work to someone to be coached or to be edited or to have someone else read it, the, there is a lot of damage done by writers going to the wrong people at the wrong time.
• 41:09
  And oftentimes the wrong people are in your family.
• 41:14
  Yes.
• 41:14
  Right.
• 41:15
  So, you know, that.
• 41:17
  Or they're just, they're not giving you the feedback that you need because you haven't identified what you need from them.
• 41:23
  So knowing, knowing what you need is where so much good help starts.
• 41:31
  And even beta readers, I always give my beta readers a list of questions so that they don't have to guess what they're supposed to be doing.
• 41:37
  It's like, Hey, who's your favorite character?
• 41:39
  Who's your least favorite character?
• 41:40
  That list of questions, by the way, is available for free that I use with mine on my website.
• 41:44
  So Suzy Vadori, just switching gears, we're gonna switch gears and go into a Q& A in a second, but just this whole event is in celebration of my Show Don't Tell writing podcast.
• 41:53
  As you know, I'm an absolute geek about Show Don't Tell, writing a whole book on it myself right now, and I just think that I could talk about it all day long.
• 42:02
  But I know, I love what you say in the course when you train book coaches, about Show Don't Tell is that it's really about making meaning, right?
• 42:11
  Can you talk a little bit about what Show Don't Tell means to you and then we'll dive into the Q& A.
• 42:16
  It's a rich topic because I, I can give a fast answer here and you're going to be talking for years about this on the podcast and it's so exciting that, that it's, we're here at the beginning of something great for you.
• 42:29
  I'm so happy to be part of that celebration.
• 42:33
  To me, Show, don't tell is grossly misunderstood.
• 42:37
  A writer, a novelist has to tell, they have to tell if they don't tell, we don't know what's happening.
• 42:44
  We don't know how people are moving in space.
• 42:46
  We don't know what they're feeling.
• 42:48
  We don't know what the consequences of their actions are.
• 42:52
  So telling is critically important to good writing, but the show part means to me.
• 43:01
  Show us what it means.
• 43:03
  Show us why it matters.
• 43:04
  Show us why that detail is there.
• 43:07
  Show us why that character has.
• 43:09
  Um, so it's going, it's going deeper into character and their emotions and their motivations and their feelings.
• 43:21
  Show us that, let us, let us see that.
• 43:24
  Let us experience that.
• 43:26
  Let us get inside that and understanding when to do that, how to do that.
• 43:34
  When the telling part, uh, needs to happen, the mix of those two things, you know, is, is part of that craft based knowledge that, that folks have to learn and part of.
• 43:46
  Taking your work from good to great.
• 43:48
  And I think the reason that show don't tell us understood on a more simplistic level is that a lot of new writers lean too far into the telling part.
• 44:01
  And they're telling us what happened, uh, just recounting things rather than writing a true story.
• 44:09
  And so it's a shorthand way of saying, yep, you have more skill to build.
• 44:14
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:15
  It can be misunderstood for sure.
• 44:19
  Absolutely.
• 44:19
  And I, I think I love to say, you know, my writers, we spend a lot of time on Children of Tell because it is a skill that is so hard.
• 44:27
  And the moment when I go, Hey, you're showing too much.
• 44:30
  Just tell us that I like, and then they're like, what?
• 44:34
  And I'm like, you've graduated, right?
• 44:35
  Like you've got this down and now you're doing it too often.
• 44:38
  And now we'll work on that balance.
• 44:39
  Right.
• 44:39
  But you're right.
• 44:40
  Most new writers.
• 44:41
  It's such a hard skill.
• 44:43
  Go, you know, I need that all the time because the, the easier thing is to tell, but sometimes, well, all the time when I work with writers, they end up graduating where they're doing it too often.
• 44:54
  And then we have to work on the balance, but in the beginning, it's almost, I mean, people could argue with me until they're blue in the face, but it's almost always true that you need to be sure or when you're writing your first drafts and you're just learning.
• 45:06
  Awesome.
• 45:07
  Okay, so where can listeners find you and your super helpful blueprint for a book series that helps writers?
• 45:14
  Well, they can go to jen nash.com/blueprint, so that's J-E-N-N-I-E-N-A-S-H slash oh.com, back slash blueprint, and they're free resources.
• 45:30
  Uh, round my blueprint books.
• 45:31
  There's three, three blueprint books for, uh, novels, memoirs, and nonfiction.
• 45:36
  That's the easiest place to learn more about that framework and process.
• 45:41
  And if anyone listening is, is thinking that they're interested in book coaching, they can go to book coaches.com/abc to get a free, uh, video series on what a book coach is and how to become one.
• 45:58
  Amazing.
• 45:59
  Thank you.
• 45:59
  Okay, so all of those links will be included in the show notes.
• 46:04
  Okay, quick Q& A, few Q& A here.
• 46:07
  Elizabeth had just added to our discussion on pseudonyms and she says, I won't hide behind it, but I will use it to keep a professional distinction.
• 46:16
  Does this make sense?
• 46:17
  Do you want to comment on that Suzy Vadori?
• 46:18
  Yeah.
• 46:20
  I mean, there's, there's no good or bad if that makes sense to you.
• 46:23
  It's, it's great.
• 46:25
  The thing, the thing you want to think through, I have a friend who has been on the USA Today bestseller list.
• 46:33
  22 times and the USA Today list is straight numbers.
• 46:40
  It's not a bestseller list that's gamed.
• 46:43
  She's a romance writer.
• 46:44
  She's, she's sold many, many, many millions of copies of books.
• 46:48
  Her name's Serena Bowen.
• 46:50
  That is not her real name.
• 46:52
  And what's interesting watching, watching her in the world is what happens when she shows up to a conference and there's literally hundreds of people in line to have her sign their book.
• 47:08
  And there she is as a human, like she's, she's a human, you know, with using one name.
• 47:15
  Not using another name being in the world with that, you know, how are you going to manage that pictures of you, you know, being your own self, you can certainly do it.
• 47:26
  She does it.
• 47:27
  She pulls it off beautifully.
• 47:29
  She's very intentional about when she.
• 47:32
  And with, with whom she uses her, her real name, but you want to think through all the way to how your book is going to be in the world and how you're going to be in, in the world with that book.
• 47:44
  And imagine for example, that you're invited on the today show to talk about your novel and it's a pen name and you know, how are you going to manage that?
• 47:57
  Sometimes people have a pen name that everybody else knows.
• 48:03
  So it's like, so it's a writing as, yeah, right, exactly.
• 48:07
  So, you know, just think about why you're doing it, how you're doing it, that think it through all the way out to the end, there's ways to make any of it work.
• 48:17
  So there's, there's no right or wrong choice around that.
• 48:21
  Awesome.
• 48:21
  Grace actually wanted to ask you, Suzy Vadori, uh, because you were talking a little bit about your book being stolen.
• 48:29
  She wants to know how you deal with people trying to scam you.
• 48:32
  What do you do?
• 48:34
  Well, I mean, unfortunately just the position that I'm in as a business owner and a writer and a person who creates a lot of content, it happens a lot and usually I, uh, whine and complain and, uh, stomp my feet, uh, for a few minutes, and then I have to make a decision about how.
• 48:57
  I want to respond and if I want to respond, if I want to take the energy and the time to respond because you could spend all day just responding to that sort of thing and I don't choose to spend my days that way.
• 49:10
  So the way that I deal with it is I suppose I take that comment from Michelle Obama where she said when, when they go low, we go high.
• 49:20
  And I try to just take the high road and, and hope that it's not going to hurt me and carry on creating and doing my work and trying to be the best I can be and hoping that my voice rises above all of that.
• 49:37
  And I like to tell myself, I like to believe that it's true that.
• 49:44
  People can't get very far with words or stories or ideas that are not their own.
• 49:50
  I think they can get somewhere, but I don't think they can get far because I think what we all really crave is authenticity and humanness in our, in our writing and in our, the things we consume.
• 50:06
  That's what I also tell myself, by the way, about the rise of, of AI.
• 50:10
  I think we all, what we all want from any of this.
• 50:14
  Is that heart and soul connection that human connection?
• 50:18
  So I tell myself if I can just be as human as possible, I'm going to be okay.
• 50:25
  And maybe telling myself, spinning myself some fairy tale, but.
• 50:29
  I guess that's how I choose to choose to go.
• 50:31
  I think that's absolutely right.
• 50:33
  And I think about that too, you know, if somebody wanted to buy my course and then copy it and record it themselves, they couldn't write, um, they couldn't teach the way that I teach and they couldn't do what I do and they couldn't write the way that I write.
• 50:44
  So thank you so much for coming on today.
• 50:48
  Susie.
• 50:49
  It's very exciting.
• 50:50
  And I wish the podcast all the best.
• 50:53
  Thank you.
• 50:54
  See you soon.
• 50:55
  Bye everyone.
• 51:04
  Thanks for tuning in to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vidori.
• 51:08
  Help me continue to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing, planning to write.
• 51:13
  Please consider subscribing to this podcast and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, Spotify or wherever you're listening.
• 51:20
  Also visit suzyvidori.
• 51:21
  com forward slash newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list to stay inspired and be the first to know about upcoming training, events, and writing courses in my community.
• 51:33
  If you're feeling brave, check the show notes and send us a page of your writing that isn't quite where you want it to be yet for our Show Don't Tell page review episodes.
• 51:41
  Remember, that book you're writing is going to open doors you haven't even thought of yet and I can't wait to Help you make it the absolute best it can be.
• 51:50
  You're feeling called to write that book.
• 51:52
  Keep going and I'll be right here cheering you on.
• 51:55
  See you again next week.