Latest / Discovering Bitcoin / Discovering Bitcoin with Jarrad Grigg

Transcript

Discovering Bitcoin with Jarrad Grigg · Discovering Bitcoin

• 0:00
  You know, Bitcoin isn't so much about opting out as it is about
• 0:03
  opting in to responsibility, to understanding, to long term
• 0:09
  thinking. Hard block, Australia's longest
• 0:11
  running Bitcoin exchange, exists for people making that choice
• 0:15
  intentionally. Simple DCA, honest fees, no
• 0:19
  hype. Yeah, I see the world through an
• 0:22
  entirely different lens. It doesn't just give you.
• 0:26
  Confidence. But it gives you hope.
• 0:31
  Think like we're squandering our energy, our life force so.
• 0:34
  Bitcoin is changing that. For me, it's like it's healing
• 0:38
  energy. It gives you a kind of of a Zen
• 0:44
  feeling, right? Deep and deep and deep.
• 0:49
  And the immortal words of the doors, The time to hesitate us
• 0:54
  through. Jared, what's going on, man?
• 1:23
  Hello. How are you?
• 1:25
  I'm good. I'm good too, man, I'm good too.
• 1:29
  Another Aussie on the pod. That's right, doesn't happen
• 1:33
  very often. Really.
• 1:35
  You'd be surprised. Yeah, right.
• 1:38
  Very international, you know. There is a there is a few of us.
• 1:42
  There's a quite a few of us. I try and get them on as I can,
• 1:46
  as and when I can. But you know, the kids do like
• 1:52
  an international voice as well. I don't know what their capacity
• 1:56
  is for. Yeah, that accent that is high,
• 2:01
  slightly high pitched and nasally.
• 2:03
  I'm speaking for myself here, you know.
• 2:09
  I I'm not, I'm not an international, I am but a lowly
• 2:12
  pleb. So we'll see how it goes.
• 2:15
  Good. This is the pledge.
• 2:17
  The pledge chats are the best. You know, they, they show up on
• 2:21
  time, they, they get the the link and they log in
• 2:25
  accordingly, they follow the, they read the calendar invite
• 2:29
  instructions. I figured it out.
• 2:32
  Figure it out. Yeah, it's, I guess because
• 2:34
  you're not, you're not very busy, right?
• 2:36
  You just don't like, you're not busy like one of these Bitcoin
• 2:38
  influences that. Not that busy.
• 2:42
  I have a clawed bot. Although I do have a clawed bot.
• 2:48
  Yeah, for experimental purposes only.
• 2:50
  Excellent. We we could, we could discuss
• 2:52
  this actually, George, I mean, Speaking of, I mean, because
• 2:56
  the, the way I came upon you was through the good stuff.
• 3:03
  Shout out to the good stuff. Tremendous broadcast with Pete
• 3:07
  and Andy. I've pretty much listened to
• 3:11
  that since episode 1. And I was listening to the
• 3:16
  Impact of AI on Design episode The Big episode 33.
• 3:20
  They're showing my stripes here. I know, I know what I'm talking
• 3:23
  about. They're all the big episode.
• 3:26
  And yeah, it just, it was, it's always nice when there's a guest
• 3:29
  on that on that show and those guys can kind of bounce off a
• 3:34
  third person. And just speaking about, I guess
• 3:37
  the impact of AI on, on a from a design perspective was, was
• 3:41
  quite interesting to me actually.
• 3:42
  I was like, oh, Jared's a Bitcoiner too.
• 3:45
  I might try and reach out and if you'd like to come on
• 3:48
  discovering Bitcoin, so here you are, I'd better get.
• 3:52
  To. The big question How did you
• 3:56
  discover Bitcoin? This is going to be a long
• 4:02
  rambling story and it might be similar to some of the stories
• 4:07
  you've heard before, but I first heard about it like I should
• 4:13
  probably start with the fact that I've been in technology my
• 4:16
  whole career. I started a digital business at
• 4:22
  university in 2008 and you know, scaled that over 1314 or three
• 4:28
  years and exited that. But in those early days, so it
• 4:33
  used to make websites and all that sort of stuff.
• 4:36
  I had a good friend who was like a sys admin assist admin type
• 4:40
  personality for a guy and I used to go to his house a lot.
• 4:46
  And I, I genuinely think this was 2009, maybe maybe early
• 4:51
  2010, so really early days. And I walked into his house and
• 4:57
  he had a computer with no case on it.
• 5:01
  And I was whirring loudly and there was a scream with all
• 5:04
  this, you know, matrix looking code on it.
• 5:06
  I said, what is that? What is that?
• 5:10
  And he isn't his name's Dave. And he said to me, oh, I'm
• 5:14
  mining money. Yeah, cool, Dave.
• 5:18
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And I remember looking at like,
• 5:22
  what do you mean? Because, well, it's like this
• 5:23
  digital money thing. And yeah, I'm just like you kind
• 5:26
  of briefly explained it to me and mine are you?
• 5:32
  I don't get that. I got money in my bank account,
• 5:34
  right? Why do I need money?
• 5:37
  I don't get it. I just didn't get it.
• 5:38
  I was, it was too early. And so I think that was, yeah,
• 5:43
  like 2000, early 2010, I think. And then, Oh my do.
• 5:48
  We know where Dave is. Is he like on the?
• 5:51
  I do, I do No, no, I'll come back to Dave because I call I
• 5:56
  called him in the the 2020 born. So yeah.
• 6:03
  So then then years passed and I did hear of, you know, obviously
• 6:08
  that was my first introduction of Bitcoin.
• 6:09
  It kind of sat in the back of my mind at the time.
• 6:12
  I was young, right? So I wasn't like a big, I didn't
• 6:15
  know a lot about money itself or not even a lot about finance.
• 6:20
  I knew that I was supposed to be responsible and invest and I
• 6:26
  just did what anyone else did, you know, I just put it in sort
• 6:28
  of the managed funds for my money through my financial
• 6:32
  advisor. And I do remember 1 conversation
• 6:36
  with my advisor, I think it would have been about 2012, or I
• 6:40
  did ask him whether I should put some money into Bitcoin and he
• 6:43
  just sort of laughed it off. OK, he's the expert.
• 6:47
  So that was another misstep. But then it was 2016.
• 6:55
  I think towards the end of the year it started a rally and I
• 6:59
  started seeing post about it. And I remember this one guy in
• 7:02
  particular, I think he posted like it was $500 or maybe it was
• 7:07
  $1000. And then a couple of weeks later
• 7:10
  it was like 1000 dollars, $2000 and it doubled.
• 7:13
  And that kind of picked my ears up and I went, wow, what?
• 7:17
  So, you know, it's the it's the story of, you know, come for the
• 7:20
  games that for the Revolution. But yeah, that's right.
• 7:24
  It sucked me in. What why is this?
• 7:27
  Why is this doing this? I've heard about it.
• 7:29
  I remember it in the back of my mind.
• 7:32
  And it was that was like 2016 and it was early 2017 where I
• 7:36
  really started to say, I've got to learn this.
• 7:39
  I've got to, I've got to put my head into it.
• 7:40
  And as a technology guy, like I, like I said before, I built
• 7:45
  websites and web applications and all that stuff with my
• 7:47
  business. I'm more of a designer by trade.
• 7:51
  It, it really started to click. Then I started to get my head
• 7:55
  into the tech, you know, how blockchain in particular works
• 7:59
  and Bitcoin specifically. And I was hooked at the idea of
• 8:04
  it, this immutable Ledger and especially the the mining
• 8:09
  concept. It just sort of it peaked.
• 8:11
  It was, it was different enough from what I knew from reality
• 8:14
  that it really piqued my interest and made me sort of
• 8:16
  scratch my head and get what the hell is this?
• 8:19
  This is so different. And at that stage, I still
• 8:22
  wasn't ready to dive in fully deep.
• 8:25
  So I, I started buying then. But then, you know, that year
• 8:32
  things got a little bit crazy, right?
• 8:34
  So 2017 was that massive run and I was distracted, you know, I
• 8:38
  started looking at, OK, well, what's this Ethereum thing?
• 8:41
  And it's this world computer and that sounds kind of cool.
• 8:43
  And what's this other thing and what's that other thing?
• 8:46
  That's a pretty standard story, right?
• 8:47
  You, you, you, you start to get distracted by these other
• 8:52
  projects. You start to see people getting
• 8:55
  wealthy and you start to sort of gamble on them.
• 8:58
  I did a little bit of that, but I was I thought I was smart
• 9:00
  enough at the time to to not really another mistake I made
• 9:05
  was thinking of it as an investment, you know, putting
• 9:08
  money into like a it was like a also called C20.
• 9:14
  So it was a a weighted index average of the top 20 coins on
• 9:20
  the market, right. That seems quite that seems
• 9:22
  really safe, smart. Conservative.
• 9:25
  Yeah, conservative approach to this new world of finance.
• 9:29
  And it was supposed to be immutable and it was a smart
• 9:32
  contract. Yeah, C20 token or whatever.
• 9:34
  I was like, that's great. Over here, there's this, yeah,
• 9:37
  there's this company that runs it and they're not going to mess
• 9:40
  with it. Hey, that, that turned out not
• 9:43
  to be true. So after the 2017, that sort of
• 9:49
  crash, I, I, I just, I didn't stop really buying Bitcoin, like
• 9:55
  just Bitcoin. I just sort of something in my
• 9:58
  mind just said, OK, that's the big one.
• 10:00
  I'll just let that fit and just keep chipping away at it.
• 10:03
  But I didn't really that I didn't go deep in either and
• 10:07
  everything just kind of sat there.
• 10:08
  I had a bunch of dust and you know, the, the shit coins and
• 10:12
  stuff. And then in 20 would have been
• 10:15
  in 2020, I think mid 2020, it's starting.
• 10:23
  Well, actually there was the crash in March 2020, I think it
• 10:25
  was. And I remember that day where I
• 10:30
  was, there was a massive dip in the global market after the
• 10:34
  COVID And I, but I did get, I did buy some Bitcoin then
• 10:38
  because I thought, well, I thought it was undervalued at
• 10:41
  that point because nothing had really changed.
• 10:44
  But it's not like I went crazy and I went, oh, well, that seems
• 10:47
  like a good time to get some. Turns out that was good.
• 10:52
  That was the right move. But it was towards the end of
• 10:56
  that year where I really started to go deep on what is money
• 11:01
  because I didn't really realize, because you know, all this
• 11:03
  fugazi with markets going crazy and crashing and everything.
• 11:06
  I've been old enough to like when I first started my, my
• 11:08
  first business, it was the 2008 crash.
• 11:11
  So I lived through that. And then, you know, you see the
• 11:14
  second one and I saw in 2020, I was like, I've got to really,
• 11:17
  why does this happen? What is, what is what, what's
• 11:21
  going on? I don't understand this.
• 11:22
  And I, I go through, I have this personality where I, I latch on
• 11:25
  things and it might be like fitness, you know, but why am I
• 11:31
  O obese and π it all the time? Maybe I should do something
• 11:34
  about that, you know, and, and then you start going deep down
• 11:37
  that rabbit hole and I'll I'll or photography, but maybe I
• 11:41
  should learn photography and get all the gear and, you know, go,
• 11:43
  go to landscape photography. I did that for a bit, but it
• 11:47
  just so happened in 2020. It was finance, right?
• 11:49
  It was the I got it. I got to learn this shit, right?
• 11:51
  I got to understand what money money is.
• 11:53
  And I went really deep, like every other Bitcoiner tends to
• 11:57
  do, and just had my aha moment, right?
• 12:00
  Like the history of money, all of its properties, you know, the
• 12:04
  rise and fall of different currencies, you know, everything
• 12:07
  that happened with the Bretton Woods system and, you know, the
• 12:10
  creature of Jekyll Island and all of that, right?
• 12:13
  I don't really think I have anything new to add there other
• 12:16
  than it just blew my mind. Blown your mind?
• 12:19
  Exactly. You just like what?
• 12:22
  What? Happened.
• 12:24
  How did what? How long has this been going on
• 12:26
  in school? That's right.
• 12:28
  They they did what? And I and I have to voluntarily
• 12:32
  find this information out and yet it has such a material
• 12:36
  impact on my life. Yes, yes.
• 12:39
  And I'm completely unaware of it.
• 12:42
  And and people don't you don't get caught it and you have to
• 12:45
  discover it by yourself. So when you do, you sound like a
• 12:49
  crazy person, everyone else. And so that really, really blew
• 12:54
  my mind. And, and at that point, I'm
• 12:57
  probably a little bit of a tangent in terms of how it made
• 13:00
  me change culturally. I can come back to my story
• 13:04
  because I started to see it everywhere.
• 13:06
  I started to see the degradation of everything through Fiat
• 13:12
  currency. You know, I'd always wondered
• 13:14
  why, why do people dress so not as well as they used to, right?
• 13:20
  And I always thought, oh, well, fashion changes, you know,
• 13:22
  things get, you know, maybe culture changes and different
• 13:25
  looks, you know, change over time.
• 13:28
  No, it's cost. People don't go and get tailored
• 13:31
  suits anymore. It's cost.
• 13:32
  What is what is. Why do buildings, oh man, become
• 13:36
  more homogeneous? Why is that?
• 13:39
  And they just get, the quality seems to get lower.
• 13:41
  Why do they not? Why do they build those
• 13:44
  homogeneous buildings and then leave space for mixed-use?
• 13:50
  Like we're going to have a really nice restaurant here and
• 13:53
  a cafe there and maybe a convenience store slash little
• 13:57
  supermarket here, but then the business fails constantly within
• 14:02
  six months and turns over, turns over and then the whole precinct
• 14:06
  turns into a shithole just like all the greatest interesting
• 14:12
  that's. That's right, the greatest hits
• 14:14
  the franchises, right? Bitcoin doesn't announce itself.
• 14:17
  It reveals itself not in the moment you buy, but in the
• 14:20
  moment you stop thinking of it as a trade, start sensing it as
• 14:25
  a discovery. This episode is supported by
• 14:27
  Hardline, an Australian Bitcoin exchange built for people
• 14:31
  finding Bitcoin in their own time, without pressure, without
• 14:35
  performance, without noise. Hard Block keeps the mechanics
• 14:38
  as simple flat fees, no spreads, and a calm way to stack sats
• 14:43
  over time with DCA. And if you're still listening
• 14:46
  more than buying, there's a quiet place to learn over at
• 14:49
  learn.hardblock.com dot AU. If you've been listening to this
• 14:53
  pod for a while, you already know Bitcoin is something you
• 14:56
  discover. Hard Block helps you do it
• 14:58
  honestly. Use code Discovering Bitcoin all
• 15:00
  one word for $10 worth of free Bitcoin when signing up for a
• 15:04
  new fully verified account Hard block.com dot AU.
• 15:09
  Yeah. And I just started to see it in
• 15:11
  everything, you know, and, you know, realizing that if you own
• 15:15
  a business and you, you have a product or service that your
• 15:18
  margin degrades over time. And you can either be forced to
• 15:21
  because of inflation in the way that, you know, money, money
• 15:24
  growth works through the debt system.
• 15:27
  You're rather forced to, you know, find new ways to lower
• 15:30
  your own cost base, or you pass that on to the customer.
• 15:35
  And generally, you know, people pass it on with price increases
• 15:40
  and, and they make inferior products.
• 15:43
  So just it's this slow, gradual bleed that you see in everything
• 15:49
  and and you know, that was a a really aha moment for me in in
• 15:52
  2020. Why have I not ever seen this
• 15:55
  before? And that stuck with me.
• 15:58
  And it still has, you know, it's got it's really, you know, you
• 16:01
  do all, you read all the books as well and and you start to
• 16:03
  understand time preference, you know, slash books on that.
• 16:06
  And you think, yeah, I I should actually be thinking about the
• 16:10
  future and I should be saving and not trying to live beyond my
• 16:14
  means. And it, that's just rational
• 16:16
  sense, right? It just, it just makes sense.
• 16:20
  And I felt like we kind of strayed from that, right?
• 16:22
  So it was a real, it was a really powerful moment for me.
• 16:24
  Just don't worry. About it.
• 16:28
  Yeah, that's it. What a 20% of whatever it is.
• 16:32
  Yeah. So and then you see it obviously
• 16:34
  with the state as well, you know, the amount of debt that
• 16:37
  they they go through. So that was 2020, but
• 16:42
  unfortunately I still didn't see the light.
• 16:45
  I still made a few mistakes in that cycle and I can talk about
• 16:47
  it now obviously because I've, I've come out the other side and
• 16:50
  I'm definitely 100% Bitcoin now. You know, I used FDX like
• 16:57
  everybody else in the in the in that period.
• 17:00
  Such a good yeah. There's such a good exchange, it
• 17:05
  works. So well, so trustful well.
• 17:08
  Yeah, well, the thing. Yeah, his.
• 17:11
  Girlfriend's heart. Come on.
• 17:14
  Well, I, I was distrustful, but I was too, I was distrustful of
• 17:20
  him, but I was too trusting of the law and, and people's
• 17:23
  ability to abide by it. So I, I read all the terms and
• 17:26
  conditions of that, or I used to.
• 17:28
  I generally do. And it was quite clear in the
• 17:32
  terms of service that they would never commingle funds, they
• 17:35
  would never use your funds for anything else.
• 17:37
  And that there was a separate investing, the ARM for
• 17:42
  sophisticated investors or it was for, if you're going to
• 17:45
  leverage trade, it was like a separate account.
• 17:47
  It's like. Legislation like you write the
• 17:49
  thing on the piece of paper and then magically it like, that's
• 17:55
  the thing that we'll we'll do even though, oops, we lost $30
• 17:58
  billion. We don't know where that is.
• 18:00
  Yeah, you know, but it's written on a piece of paper somewhere
• 18:03
  that we're going to allocate that 30 billion or a portion or
• 18:05
  whatever, or yeah, terms of service.
• 18:07
  We're not going to commingle these funds.
• 18:09
  Of course not. No, no, no, no, no.
• 18:11
  Yeah. Well, that's it.
• 18:12
  Well, I thought, well look, there's punishable by the law,
• 18:15
  punishable by the law if he if if it doesn't doesn't occur.
• 18:17
  And I was just too trusting of that.
• 18:20
  You're still thinking Epstein did kill himself.
• 18:23
  Oh Jesus, I'm I got no idea on that stuff.
• 18:28
  I've got no idea. So I used FTXI, got stung there
• 18:35
  and I actually use Celsius as well.
• 18:37
  So I made some stupid mistakes, but that's trouble fire.
• 18:42
  Right. Yeah, and, and it is.
• 18:46
  It's a lesson learned through pain, which is, which is the
• 18:51
  only way to learn really. So that was an interesting
• 18:55
  period of my life, but I come out on the other side with sort
• 19:00
  of more resolve, stronger belief in Bitcoin because it doesn't
• 19:06
  care. It just doesn't care about laws,
• 19:08
  it doesn't care about nation states, it doesn't care about
• 19:10
  any of that. It just does its thing.
• 19:13
  Immutable, right? So.
• 19:15
  Consensus. That's it.
• 19:17
  That's it. And so it just stuck with me
• 19:18
  going through all of that. And now I just, I, you know,
• 19:21
  being burnt by that, the fact that it was blatantly lied and
• 19:28
  the disrespect to his customers. It's just, I just don't really,
• 19:34
  you know, it flipped the switch for me on trust, as did the
• 19:39
  whole COVID era, right? That whole, oh, we must stay
• 19:43
  indoors. We must abide by all these
• 19:44
  rules. And to now come out of that and
• 19:47
  see that that's actually not, it wasn't entirely true.
• 19:52
  You know, that for me just just made me a little bit more
• 19:54
  protective and, and, and sovereign.
• 19:57
  And so now I, I, I'm naturally distrustful, which I think is a
• 20:02
  good thing. I think everyone should be.
• 20:03
  You shouldn't just go into things now thinking, Oh, I'll
• 20:06
  just, you know, that sounds good, No problems, You know,
• 20:09
  have a, have a healthy dose of skepticism, maybe a bit of
• 20:13
  cynicism, but make up your own mind.
• 20:15
  And that's what I love about Bitcoin as well as just.
• 20:19
  It's perfect to that. And I, I also like, what I like
• 20:22
  about it is that it's slow for the right reasons, right?
• 20:26
  Like there's all these people that want, want it to be
• 20:29
  something else, want it to be faster and they want, you know,
• 20:32
  to change it to this and they change it to that.
• 20:33
  But the way that it is intentionally structured means
• 20:35
  that it's difficult, it's friction.
• 20:39
  And I like that. I like that changes take time if
• 20:43
  they need to be there at all. And it's intentionally kept that
• 20:48
  way. It's just the structure of it
• 20:50
  makes sense to me. It's like the only thing in tech
• 20:52
  that needs to be slow, you know, in terms of maintenance and
• 20:56
  changes and all that. Some stuff which I've always
• 20:59
  quite like. So yeah, after that whole
• 21:01
  period, 2023 to whatever it was 2022, I'll lick my wounds and
• 21:08
  sort of rebuild. So backing myself, getting back
• 21:13
  in the mines, the Fiat mines, you know, being intelligent
• 21:18
  about the way I get, I do things and, and, and not just, you
• 21:21
  know, having increased amounts of risk.
• 21:25
  And yeah, I, I, I'm now, you know, in terms of allocation,
• 21:28
  yeah, or most, you know, bitcoins.
• 21:30
  So I got my, I got my family home.
• 21:33
  And yeah, I'm, I'm definitely much more of a Bitcoiner now
• 21:36
  than I was. So it was, it's a, it's
• 21:37
  something that just happens gradually over time.
• 21:42
  But yeah, back to Dave. I, I called, I called Dave and
• 21:48
  and I think, I think it was 2020.
• 21:50
  And I did ask him remember that. And he he remembers, you know.
• 21:54
  Yeah, yeah. We're mining it.
• 21:55
  I said, do you still have any? What happened to it?
• 21:57
  He's like, oh, no, we, we just those hard drives, we just threw
• 22:00
  them away. They're gone.
• 22:03
  Do you know how much you had? It was quite a lot.
• 22:06
  Yeah, yeah. And he, yeah, he, he quite upset
• 22:10
  about it, but. It's for the for the good of the
• 22:13
  the network and and, and us plebs.
• 22:16
  For the good of everyone else. That's right.
• 22:17
  So, yeah, I mean, but everyone learns their lesson, right?
• 22:23
  Yeah. So that's part of my story.
• 22:26
  It's it's been a trials and tribulations.
• 22:29
  You know, my life would look a lot different if I had to just
• 22:33
  listen to the advice of bitcoins from day one because I don't
• 22:38
  really like this idea when people say, oh, you know, these
• 22:41
  toxic vaccines, they're just so they're just so difficult.
• 22:44
  They're so painful. No, they're generally trying to
• 22:46
  help, but you don't want to hear, you know, I've definitely
• 22:50
  noticed that. There's like a tone, I mean,
• 22:56
  Jesus, I get in trouble for this a lot, particularly off my wife.
• 23:00
  It's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it.
• 23:03
  You're just coming across as a little bit brisk and rude.
• 23:08
  That's because it's like that movie Billy Madison, Yeah, where
• 23:13
  Adam Stanley grabs the the kid and starts shaking.
• 23:16
  He's like, you gotta cherish it. It's like trying to shake it
• 23:21
  into people. Shampoo and conditioner.
• 23:22
  Oh. No.
• 23:25
  Oh, is there a Bitcoin analogy there?
• 23:27
  I don't know. No, but I think that's
• 23:30
  Bitcoiners have learned the lessons, you know, and it's, you
• 23:32
  just want to shout it into people, but it doesn't.
• 23:35
  It doesn't work like that. I've noticed it.
• 23:37
  And every time you see someone, you know, it's on LinkedIn.
• 23:41
  It's great. It's just like, oh, it's no
• 23:43
  intrinsic value and it's just useless.
• 23:46
  And you just say that's the wave.
• 23:48
  It's just the swarm of Cyber Warner to stand on the comments.
• 23:53
  Yeah, it's great. They're all, you know, everyone
• 23:55
  makes good points. But ultimately I just don't
• 23:58
  think that that person is not going to change their mind.
• 24:02
  And anything that's going to make, it's going to they're
• 24:04
  going to dig their heels in because people don't like to be
• 24:06
  attacked. You know, especially people on
• 24:07
  LinkedIn. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 24:10
  So. That's it, yeah.
• 24:13
  The element of like that erosion of trust and then that breeding
• 24:20
  of slight cynicism, skepticism, fine cynicism.
• 24:26
  Got to be so careful with that. I, I, I think a lot of people,
• 24:32
  you know, what do they say scratches to Nick and you'll,
• 24:35
  and you'll discover an idealist under the surface.
• 24:39
  And it's an idealist that's had to cover up their their wounds
• 24:43
  or something like that, because the way that they thought the
• 24:45
  world ought to work or whatever it was, it wasn't that way.
• 24:49
  And it can make for great comedy if you're George Carlin, but
• 24:53
  you've got to be super careful with it devolving into cynicism.
• 24:57
  And that's what I see a lot with those that there's those that
• 25:01
  discovered Bitcoin around that era.
• 25:05
  It's odd to describe it as an error because it honestly feels
• 25:08
  like happened 5 minutes ago, but we're talking six years now it
• 25:13
  which is bananas. For that to come out to
• 25:16
  disappear. To be quite honest, but you
• 25:21
  there were people that discovered Bitcoin around that
• 25:23
  time and they've gone on and they've cultivated A wariness,
• 25:29
  but ultimately an optimistic point of view.
• 25:32
  And then there's others who not only cultivated the wariness,
• 25:37
  but the distrust and the cynicism and they've gone off
• 25:41
  into a realm of, well I'll start a podcast and I will rant and
• 25:47
  rave and appeal to the same very same system or people that
• 25:55
  actually caused the thing in the 1st place.
• 25:57
  As if you know by doing some 2 minute monologue piece to camera
• 26:02
  is going to make a a shitty difference.
• 26:04
  And maybe it will, maybe it won't.
• 26:06
  But we know as Bitcoin is, that's like, I agree with
• 26:09
  everything you're saying. You should also buy some
• 26:13
  Bitcoin. Yeah, that's an action item.
• 26:16
  Everything else is cool. Got it.
• 26:18
  But it's completely vapid, vacuous and and and and like
• 26:23
  redundant effectively because there's no, there's no thing
• 26:28
  behind it. It's just more appeals to
• 26:31
  authority just because you're a bit cross about it.
• 26:34
  Yeah, and I, I, I go back to this book I read, I don't know,
• 26:40
  2019 or something. I can't remember.
• 26:42
  It was a long time ago called The Speed of Trust by Stephen
• 26:45
  Covey. I'm pretty sure he's the same
• 26:46
  author as How to Make Friends and Influence People.
• 26:49
  I think I'm awesome. Now.
• 26:50
  I will say I've never read that book, not because I'm ashamed,
• 26:53
  but just The Speed of Trust is a cool book and, and, and it
• 26:58
  strikes me that like not a lot of people have read it,
• 27:01
  particularly those that are in the business of cultivating
• 27:05
  trust, IE the government or the Sam bank and fries of the world,
• 27:10
  the TS and CS, all of this stuff.
• 27:12
  And it's quite simple. Trust always effects 2 outcomes,
• 27:15
  speed and cost. When trust goes down, speed also
• 27:18
  goes down and costs go up and trust goes up, speed goes up and
• 27:22
  costs go down. It's really simple and one of
• 27:27
  the fastest ways, it says, it's in the book, I've got it
• 27:29
  highlighted, one of the fastest ways to restore trust is to make
• 27:32
  and keep commitments, even small commitments to ourselves and to
• 27:35
  others. This is just be intentional and
• 27:39
  make good on those commitments. And The thing is when you're TS
• 27:43
  and CS and you say, yeah, we're not going to re hypothecate and
• 27:46
  we're not going to mix funds and we're going to do this, that and
• 27:48
  the other. It's like have the moral
• 27:52
  attitude, even just the ethical like ability to just, well, I
• 28:00
  mean, I'm just going to say it in the in the great words of Mr.
• 28:03
  P Wynne, don't be a cunt, basically.
• 28:05
  It's very. You're just a shitty human.
• 28:08
  Yeah, Yeah. And I'm pleased.
• 28:11
  And I knew you know the. Other side with a more hopeful
• 28:15
  and positive POV. Why have a worldview that it's,
• 28:20
  it's as easy to be positive as it is negative?
• 28:22
  You know, some, there's, there's a personality type that's well
• 28:25
  with me. And I genuinely believe that
• 28:27
  your words shape your thoughts, shape who you are.
• 28:31
  You know, you repeat something long enough and it kind of
• 28:33
  changes who you are. And it, it's just as easy to be
• 28:37
  positive. You know, it's just as easy to
• 28:39
  be nice. And I just try to live my life
• 28:42
  that way. So I've tried, I've tried, I've
• 28:44
  tried to learn the lessons from it.
• 28:46
  You know. But it was, it was like I, I, I
• 28:51
  grew up having this view that, you know, people are, are good,
• 28:55
  you know, people genuinely have other people's interests at
• 28:58
  heart. You know, I was raised that way.
• 29:01
  And this was a serious lesson in that not being the case that
• 29:05
  there are shit people out there. And it definitely is maybe more
• 29:10
  cautious and not as trusting, which has pushed me more into
• 29:14
  Bitcoin because, you know, you don't need trust, don't verify,
• 29:16
  right? I can see everything.
• 29:17
  I don't need other people to use it.
• 29:20
  You know, no one can stop me from using it.
• 29:21
  So it's verifiable. So I don't know.
• 29:24
  It's just you know what? I can't have always been
• 29:27
  attitude. I made the decisions.
• 29:30
  I learned from it. So yeah, they're.
• 29:32
  All just reflections on you at the end of the day anyway.
• 29:35
  And the cool thing about having Bitcoin is that you don't have
• 29:40
  to abide that for very long if you don't want to.
• 29:44
  You can be like, yeah, I, I thought I could trust you.
• 29:48
  I thought, you know, I, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and
• 29:51
  thought you were a nice person when I first met you.
• 29:54
  And it turns out you're a bit of a downer or a prick or whatever
• 29:58
  it is. And I don't need you.
• 30:01
  And that's even like from an economic standpoint, if you can,
• 30:05
  you have like in the, in the sort of the workplace,
• 30:07
  particularly if, if you're, I mean, gosh, if if you're under
• 30:10
  mountains of debt like we are in Australia.
• 30:13
  And I say the royal we, it's very difficult.
• 30:18
  But you know, a lot of people struggle that through that in
• 30:20
  COVID as well. Yeah, they, they were coerced
• 30:25
  because they had obligations basically that they needed to
• 30:28
  meet and they didn't have a sufficient stockpile of savings
• 30:32
  to be like, fuck off. Yeah.
• 30:35
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, couldn't, couldn't make
• 30:38
  the decision themselves. It was a, that was a, looking
• 30:42
  back, pretty dark period. I, yeah, you know, I, I got the
• 30:47
  shot and I remember being very, very uneasy about it because
• 30:52
  over, in over the WA, we had a, it was a Royal Showgrounds.
• 30:57
  So it was like a giant shed and there was rows and rows of
• 31:00
  people sitting in these seats and they were just all the next
• 31:03
  row and everyone would move forward and it was like a cattle
• 31:06
  shed. And it just felt so dark.
• 31:09
  It was, I remember feeling very uneasy about it.
• 31:14
  And yeah, I mean, I'm OK now, but, you know, obviously.
• 31:20
  But it just, it just didn't sit right with me.
• 31:22
  So yeah, anyway, like, like I say, try to learn from it and
• 31:27
  try to be a better person because of the mistakes you make
• 31:30
  and all that sort of stuff. So and that's to put two point.
• 31:33
  On it but Bitcoin does actually have a material effect, material
• 31:38
  immaterial metaphysical effect as well on a person's outlook.
• 31:42
  And I certainly hear quite a lot on this podcast.
• 31:47
  One of the reasons I I love doing it is.
• 31:49
  Because. You can hear the change and
• 31:53
  we'll get to that, that all important question in a moment.
• 31:56
  But I was curious because you mentioned you're in tech and
• 32:01
  you've been in tech effectively since you were at uni and then,
• 32:05
  you know, specializing in design and everything.
• 32:07
  But I heard your conversation with Pete and Andy on the good
• 32:10
  stuff and they talk a lot about sort of the cutting edge of AI.
• 32:15
  And you know, Pete's got his wing man that that he's, he
• 32:20
  mentions. And when this Claude bot came
• 32:22
  out, I was like, wait, is that just like a wingman?
• 32:26
  And then this, he did this voice, but it didn't do voice at
• 32:29
  that point. Anyway, you're running a clawed
• 32:32
  bot. Yeah.
• 32:34
  Do you? Also run Wingman I I.
• 32:36
  I haven't spoken to you about this yet, but I I just want to
• 32:38
  find out what have you used both?
• 32:41
  How do they work? What is it?
• 32:43
  What's the go? What is this AI thing?
• 32:45
  Do you have a little like cohort of of clanker butlers in your in
• 32:50
  your Mac mini somewhere? Well, you don't need a Mac mini.
• 32:55
  You don't need to pay the Apple tax to get started.
• 32:59
  Yeah, so it's a big question. I I've used, I have met with
• 33:05
  Pate and I've used his Wingman product and it's great.
• 33:09
  As I said to you previously, Pete's living in the future if
• 33:11
  you want to know where things are going to go.
• 33:13
  He's always directionally correct.
• 33:15
  He's a phenomenal guy. And so he's been doing this for
• 33:19
  some time. Like he spotted the trend a
• 33:20
  while back. So he's built his own sort of
• 33:23
  software product that allows you to build software.
• 33:27
  And there's a bunch of them now, right?
• 33:29
  There's a lot of people building on top of these models, but I
• 33:32
  don't know how. Do you want me to just give you
• 33:33
  a, a high level summation of how this stuff works?
• 33:36
  I know this is a Bitcoin. Podcast I'm supposed to be
• 33:38
  talking about discovering, well, you know, I'm taking advantage.
• 33:42
  It's they're they're kind. Of related, right.
• 33:44
  And I'll, I'll get, I'll get to how I think they're related
• 33:47
  because it's to do with payments.
• 33:50
  But effectively you have like you have a brain, it's called
• 33:54
  RoboCop, right? RoboCop has a human brain and
• 33:57
  the robot body and the brains, the thing that powers the body.
• 33:59
  And so with these AIS, you have the model, which is the brain.
• 34:04
  And then you have this thing called a harness, which is more
• 34:06
  or less the body and the harness allows the model to do things.
• 34:10
  And so when you hear Clawed bot, right?
• 34:13
  What it's been renamed now to open Claw because Entropy didn't
• 34:18
  like the use of the the trademark.
• 34:21
  But yeah. So Open Core effectively is just
• 34:26
  a an open source program that you can download and use and you
• 34:30
  can connect models to it to get it to do things.
• 34:33
  So there is a Bitcoin actually, I don't know his name, Kelly.
• 34:38
  I think his name is Kelly, yeah. Yep, and so.
• 34:41
  He's built a cloud hosted version of it called Chloe dot
• 34:47
  ARCLA WI dot AII believe, and he's made it really easy.
• 34:54
  You just you just go through the process, you sign up, you pay
• 34:57
  and you can get your very own little open claw running in
• 35:00
  Telegram and effectively you you just talk to it like you would a
• 35:06
  person and you just get it to do things and it will do things.
• 35:10
  It will create scripts to do stuff for you.
• 35:13
  It will check on things you can anything you can think of
• 35:15
  really, but you have to put the work in, right?
• 35:18
  So you have to actually spend time like it's not this magical
• 35:23
  thing that just solves all your problems.
• 35:25
  You do have to think about what you want for how to use it.
• 35:29
  And if you if you've got an idea and you're the kind of person
• 35:33
  that can persevere, you can really do a lot with it.
• 35:36
  You just have to continuously talk to it until it's done it
• 35:39
  down that you know, into what you understand.
• 35:42
  And then you gradually just work your way through sort of
• 35:44
  anything, right? So you can get it to build
• 35:48
  software, but it would need something like cloud code,
• 35:51
  right? So you give it that environment,
• 35:53
  you let it actually build with the models, but then you have to
• 35:56
  set up GitHub with it so I can start pushing code and you know,
• 35:59
  all that sort of stuff. So it's it's not this magical
• 36:02
  all in one solution, but it is incredibly useful.
• 36:06
  And it's only really it was the fastest growing GitHub repo star
• 36:13
  repo ever. I think it's just like a
• 36:14
  straight line vertical. It's phenomenally popular.
• 36:20
  And I think there was there was some thought about Pete being
• 36:24
  the first hit of one man billion dollar company.
• 36:26
  I don't think he was acquired for that much.
• 36:28
  But yeah, it's it's a it's a great project, but they're all
• 36:32
  adopting this now, right. So what I like about Open Claw
• 36:35
  is that it's it's local. You can run it local, right?
• 36:38
  If you want to run this on a machine at home, you can do that
• 36:42
  and it's yours and you can run around you can run local models
• 36:45
  on on it. Now there is a a model that came
• 36:47
  out I think just yesterday, which is quite powerful.
• 36:51
  You can run on your machine and get really good results with and
• 36:54
  it doesn't it's not hosted in the cloud.
• 36:56
  It's not somewhere else. It's yours and you can just let
• 36:58
  it run 24 hours a day right. So you can can take ownership of
• 37:01
  this tech or if you want, you can run it in the cloud through,
• 37:06
  you know, like Claude anthropic Claude is one of them, GPT is
• 37:12
  another. You know, you can use they, they
• 37:14
  have a great sort of ease of use those sorts of platforms, right?
• 37:18
  So the average person can sort of pay and, and just start
• 37:21
  chatting away. But again, it's a trust
• 37:25
  question. You are giving all of your data
• 37:28
  to these businesses. And I think it's been a few
• 37:30
  instances now where they're showing that, you know, they're
• 37:33
  not really doing what they say they're doing and they.
• 37:38
  Exactly. Yeah, trust me bro.
• 37:41
  And and you know, you can tick a box in the settings it says
• 37:43
  don't train, don't train and your models on my data, but I
• 37:47
  dare say that's just a box that gets ticked.
• 37:49
  So it's, it's, it's a trust question, right?
• 37:52
  There's another way you can do it as well.
• 37:54
  So at enterprise level, businesses are very concerned
• 37:58
  with sort of secure data security roughly so, and because
• 38:03
  these models think like people, so they don't necessarily, you
• 38:07
  know, they're not going to do exactly what you want all the
• 38:10
  time. You know, there's sometimes
• 38:12
  Australia, sometimes they do odd things.
• 38:14
  And so these big businesses are really worried about how you use
• 38:18
  them. So you can host them in an
• 38:20
  environment that you control in the cloud.
• 38:22
  So you, you might have an AWS instance or an Azure instance
• 38:25
  with Microsoft, you set it up, you want it, you deploy the
• 38:28
  model there. Your data doesn't escape that,
• 38:31
  but it is still cloud hosted. So there's different ways you
• 38:34
  can sort of use this technology and a lot of these companies now
• 38:39
  are adapting, adopting what open claw is is is doing, and that is
• 38:47
  that it's a gentek, right. So the perplexity just released
• 38:52
  computer, which which gets it to do stuff for you.
• 38:57
  Claude has Co work, same thing. It just does stuff on your
• 39:01
  machine. You know, you just you talk to
• 39:03
  it, you give it access to your machine and it can go and do,
• 39:07
  you know, achieve actions, right.
• 39:09
  So basically it it it it's like having an employee that you can
• 39:14
  that you can use to do things on your machine so you can save
• 39:16
  time. So it's really, really powerful.
• 39:20
  But at the moment still just early days.
• 39:22
  So there's a lot of things that need to be improved and a lot of
• 39:26
  the ways that people talk about it online is that it's, you
• 39:29
  know, that there's a lot of hot, hot ball about it.
• 39:33
  It's like this is the most incredible thing and you can
• 39:35
  fire half your staff and blah, blah, blah.
• 39:36
  But it's not it's, it's not really the case.
• 39:40
  Not quite. I can remember like when.
• 39:42
  ChatGPT first was like like, OK, this is something we should
• 39:48
  probably consider here. And there was this guy who gave
• 39:52
  it like a bet or something or it said, no, it was like it was
• 39:55
  like $300 and like, just tell me what to invest it in.
• 39:59
  And I mean, I haven't caught up with the guy.
• 40:01
  Like I haven't seen him on Twitter or anything like that.
• 40:03
  But it was like this big viral post like, oh wow, this Churchy
• 40:07
  PT is telling this guy how to like allocate his capital and
• 40:10
  he's already up 25% on over the last three days or whatever it
• 40:14
  is. And you know, all these people
• 40:17
  come out of the woodwork like there's this one guy showed a
• 40:19
  photo of he bought like. Maybe 3 Mac minis and like a Mac
• 40:25
  studio. And he was boasting about I've
• 40:27
  spent 20 grand on and they're just talking to each other and
• 40:30
  I'm going to make the fan. You're just like, yeah, cool
• 40:33
  bro. Like, I mean, you're either you
• 40:36
  know, like have older children or I don't know, like whatever,
• 40:40
  just like go fuck yourself basically.
• 40:43
  Look, I mean. It's, it's, it's I've seen it
• 40:45
  now. You know, you see the cycle of
• 40:47
  this, this snake oil salesman, right?
• 40:48
  They, they did it in 2017. You know, it was crypto was the
• 40:51
  thing and everyone was broking these yield products in 2020 and
• 40:56
  all this, you know, Ethereum money lending stuff.
• 40:59
  And there's a lot of that in AI now for sure.
• 41:01
  That's there's no, I'm not debating that at all.
• 41:03
  That's a fact. But it is actually a really
• 41:07
  transformative technology. And in it was December last year
• 41:11
  where it really clicked for me. I started using it really
• 41:14
  heavily and something changed and I think it was a combination
• 41:18
  of the models getting really good.
• 41:20
  So it was 4.5 at a time. And the harness is becoming more
• 41:24
  capable. So the models become, they were
• 41:27
  able to do more where it just started blowing my mind the,
• 41:30
  the, the what you could build with them, how capable they
• 41:35
  became. And it was another, it was like
• 41:38
  an oh shit moment for me because you start to see this play out
• 41:43
  and you have, you know, people can use this to do a lot of
• 41:46
  things now. So yeah, I, I think the, the way
• 41:51
  that it relates to, to Bitcoin is payments, right?
• 41:55
  So I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole with this recently
• 41:58
  in terms of trying to think about what money will agents use
• 42:05
  because. They they are.
• 42:07
  Already acting as employees, they're already completing work
• 42:10
  for people and employees get paid, right.
• 42:13
  So how, how does an agent transfer value?
• 42:18
  Because you can't use the traditional banking system and
• 42:22
  in sort of so do you crypto kind of lends itself really well to
• 42:26
  it, right? That will enable it.
• 42:30
  But they're, they're tinkering right now, the boffins, they're,
• 42:32
  they're putting their heads together and they're thinking
• 42:35
  how can we get the Commbank and ANZ and like Westpac and all
• 42:39
  these guys, how can we facilitate payments, get all of
• 42:42
  these agents to open up accounts with us?
• 42:44
  And yeah, well. I mean, they're all fighting for
• 42:47
  control over it, right? You've got banks, you know,
• 42:50
  wanting their that impose their will.
• 42:52
  There's governments, you know, there's, there's the crypto
• 42:55
  lobby, the coin bases of the world have their own way.
• 42:57
  They want to do asset managers, you know, like BlackRock, All of
• 43:00
  these sort of big players have this view of our way is the way.
• 43:05
  And they're all trying to muscle at the moment to try and control
• 43:08
  this, this, this space. And it's going to be huge, you
• 43:12
  know, the, the amount of value they're going to transact is
• 43:16
  it's going to fail out, strip our own.
• 43:17
  And they do it in like micro payments, right?
• 43:21
  So they, they, you, you can string money, you know, they do
• 43:24
  things incredibly quick for fractions of the cent, right?
• 43:30
  And so I started looking into this a while ago and really even
• 43:35
  speaking with agents about it too, you know, what would you
• 43:37
  use that? What makes the most sense for
• 43:39
  you? And you know, it didn't
• 43:43
  specifically say lightning or anything, but it was, it said
• 43:45
  stateless Rails that allow that type of transaction volume is
• 43:50
  the way to go. You don't want a nation state,
• 43:53
  right? So Coinbase is trying to solve
• 43:56
  this problem with a protocol that they have, which kind of
• 43:58
  inserts itself between let's say like an API or a website or
• 44:03
  whatever with an agent. So an agent needs to commit an
• 44:06
  action and it gets met with this wall and says, pay us this tiny
• 44:10
  fraction of money and you can continue.
• 44:12
  And it goes, OK. And the way it goes and they've
• 44:14
  built this thing, I think it's like X4 O2.
• 44:17
  But the problem with it is, is it's, it's it's USDC.
• 44:22
  So there's still trust. You still have to trust the
• 44:25
  issuer. It's USD, so it's pegged to the
• 44:28
  United States dollar. So it's the wrong solution.
• 44:32
  You know, why does why would agents care about the United
• 44:36
  States? You know, the whole point, what
• 44:38
  you, the layer that you want is something that enemies can
• 44:41
  transact with, right? That it's, it doesn't, it's,
• 44:44
  it's not about sovereignty. I mean, I mean, it's not about
• 44:46
  the, the, the, the country or the borders because they don't
• 44:50
  care. So it, it kind of lends itself
• 44:54
  really well to that, that space. And I think it's his name brand,
• 44:59
  Brand Ganstein. Oh yeah.
• 45:01
  It came from millennials. Yeah, he's.
• 45:04
  He's working on this thing called Start With Bitcoin, which
• 45:08
  is kind of that it's like it's like the X 402 but with BTC line
• 45:12
  payments and stuff. So getting agents fed up with it
• 45:15
  and using it. So it kind of feels like for me
• 45:19
  that that will be the way to go, right, That, you know, we talked
• 45:22
  earlier about. The how do you sort of?
• 45:27
  You know, people discover Bitcoin right by themselves.
• 45:29
  They go through the pain and you can't really ram it down to
• 45:32
  people's throat. And it's, it's one of those
• 45:35
  things that if you left it to the mainstream media, it would
• 45:38
  be this fringe thing forever. And I'll just keep, you know,
• 45:41
  talking about the same old, same old things you hear every year,
• 45:46
  right? That it's dead, that it's no
• 45:48
  intrinsic value, blah, blah, blah.
• 45:50
  But if it naturally grows through a genetic use and it
• 45:54
  becomes just the standard that they use because they've
• 45:58
  determined that that's what is the the most appropriate
• 46:01
  solution. And the people start using it
• 46:03
  without even noticing, you know, and it could become that layout
• 46:08
  through that, right? And so I don't know.
• 46:11
  It's just something I went. Down that rabbit hole and made
• 46:13
  that for me, it really made the most sense that we'll see.
• 46:17
  We can see a lot of growth with Bitcoin through through agents
• 46:21
  because they don't they don't need to worry about any other
• 46:24
  particular currency. It's going to be.
• 46:28
  It's going. To be, I mean, it makes sense
• 46:30
  and it's intuitive to a Bitcoiner, you know, the fact
• 46:34
  that it, it is, as you said, it's money on stateless rails.
• 46:38
  It's into operable with literally everything and and it
• 46:43
  doesn't go through a third party intermediate.
• 46:44
  There's no permission, you know, it makes complete sense.
• 46:48
  But yeah, I, I guess it's like anything like people on Twitter
• 46:54
  in particular, they, they love a hype cycle and a hype cycle seem
• 46:57
  to last like 10 minutes now, you know, but I, I, I can see, I can
• 47:04
  see where it's going. But I mean, I, I wanted to just
• 47:06
  briefly pivot to, and I know we've drifted a little bit
• 47:10
  farther away from the core of this thing, but and I've had
• 47:13
  conversations about wine and food on this podcast.
• 47:16
  Shout out, Chef Tom, you know, so we're fine.
• 47:21
  But anyway, you wrote an article and I was probably eaten halfway
• 47:25
  through it. And to stop, half the Internet
• 47:28
  is AI now. Does anyone care?
• 47:29
  And you make this study. I got up to this point where
• 47:34
  you're just talking about craft beer and I kind of want to
• 47:37
  unpack that a little bit. But I guess the, the, the TLDR
• 47:41
  of the article, if, if I may, even though I've read half of
• 47:44
  it, it's basically like there's a, there's a shit ton of AI
• 47:47
  across the Internet now. Everyone is collapsing to this
• 47:50
  thing and you have to kind of like adopt it or, or get out of
• 47:53
  the way. And, and So what does that mean?
• 47:57
  I guess is that you know, I'll let you.
• 47:59
  Speak to it like what? What was inspired?
• 48:01
  Because I mean, the the cool thing about this, I just want to
• 48:03
  shout out the amount of like links that you've got embedded
• 48:06
  throughout all of this, this list.
• 48:08
  There's a lot of deep thoughts gone into this thing.
• 48:11
  And it's, yes, it's a testament to how shit the algorithm is on
• 48:15
  Twitter that it's just had 155 views.
• 48:18
  Fuck that. Like, what a yeah.
• 48:22
  Jesus. Well, thank you.
• 48:23
  I'll keep posting. I'll keep posting.
• 48:27
  That's fine and you know, for all its flaws of LinkedIn, the
• 48:34
  impressions of are better. I get more engagement on
• 48:36
  LinkedIn which is Check it up on some more Nosta I'll.
• 48:39
  ZAP you some. That's a good idea.
• 48:41
  That's a good idea. Yeah, I have a Nostra camp.
• 48:44
  I'll start doing that. Yeah.
• 48:47
  I mean, I, I just like to go down rapper halls and I like to
• 48:50
  research things and these do take a bit of time.
• 48:54
  No, they're not. They are generated, I, I use it
• 48:58
  to help me research, but I did write them.
• 49:00
  So I, I liked it. Like this is something about
• 49:04
  when I'll put a lot of links in there because it's about
• 49:05
  sources, right? If you're saying something, I
• 49:07
  don't want a list of sources at the bottom.
• 49:09
  You just click the link and you can, you can read more about it.
• 49:12
  But that particular one was, you know, I've heard about the dead
• 49:15
  Internet theory a long time ago and it just seems to make so
• 49:21
  much more sense now where, you know, you're scrolling through
• 49:25
  anything now. It doesn't matter what it is X,
• 49:28
  you know, YouTube, whatever. And you see these AI videos and
• 49:32
  you see these these posts on Facebook.
• 49:34
  The boomers just love it. And that's just AI like this is
• 49:38
  all slop. And it just got me thinking
• 49:41
  like, is this working? Like some people are doing this?
• 49:45
  You know, a lot of people are doing it, but I don't know if
• 49:47
  it's working or not. I don't know if it's like take,
• 49:50
  take away the, the idea of whether it's good or not, right?
• 49:53
  Because I, I, I don't think it's good, but is it actually, does
• 49:58
  it actually work? Does it get these businesses the
• 50:00
  engagement they want to buy the products or services that they
• 50:02
  want, right? Because if it is, they'll keep
• 50:03
  doing it. And so I went down that rabbit
• 50:06
  hole and and and it's interesting like it is kind.
• 50:11
  Of working but. Not in the sense that you think
• 50:14
  it's working. In the sense that the cost of
• 50:17
  production is collapsed so that the volume can be so high, but
• 50:21
  their conversion rates can be lower so that they still make
• 50:24
  more money, if that makes sense. But if it's human and they've
• 50:28
  put care into it, it takes longer.
• 50:30
  The cost is higher for the content, but it converts better.
• 50:34
  And, and so human content and humans want human content.
• 50:38
  Like that's just, it's just a fact.
• 50:39
  Like right now, I don't know, maybe a year's time or two years
• 50:43
  time, these, this technology will get so good that you won't
• 50:45
  be able to tell the difference. But right now people can tell
• 50:49
  it, It kind of smells AOI right. But but interestingly as well,
• 50:54
  like, you know, you can look back in time and people say, oh,
• 50:57
  this is this is, you know, this transformative moment we're
• 50:59
  leaving the industrial age and moving to the intelligence edge,
• 51:02
  blah, blah, blah. That's that's all true.
• 51:04
  But you look to the past and try and take lessons from it.
• 51:07
  And at least in the recent years, right?
• 51:09
  Like, yeah, I used craft beer as an example because it it it does
• 51:14
  show that people value quality. You know, the interesting thing
• 51:18
  was that people thought it craft beer tasted better in blind
• 51:22
  tests because they thought there was a smaller operation that
• 51:25
  made it. You know, if they were told that
• 51:27
  it was like, oh, this is fuck, fuck two guys making it out of
• 51:30
  some shed in some warehouse, you know what I mean?
• 51:33
  And Oh yeah, this is great. It's like it's it's wired into
• 51:37
  us to connect with other people and to be real and human.
• 51:42
  Love a story I used to write a. Lot of them.
• 51:45
  Back in the day, that was my job.
• 51:47
  And I would write about craft beer and I would write about
• 51:49
  wine and I would write about these sorts of things and I
• 51:52
  would do that. I would tell the story and I was
• 51:54
  right in the middle of all that and saw it come and go.
• 51:57
  You know what the thing that killed it for me is the cost.
• 52:00
  The price? Like and.
• 52:02
  The beer wasn't any better, and you know what?
• 52:04
  Like it just got so ludicrous, particularly with the craft beer
• 52:07
  stuff where I, I drank 1 beer once and it had literally it was
• 52:12
  brewed with Panna chocolate, like a chocolate croissant like
• 52:16
  had gone into this thing, it was called a pastry stout.
• 52:18
  It was delicious. It was quite nice.
• 52:19
  But like like where are we going now?
• 52:22
  And you know, I saw Carlton Dry because there was all these
• 52:26
  fruity beers that are coming out onto the shelf and they were,
• 52:29
  you know, the, the thing that pissed me off was that you could
• 52:32
  only buy them in like cases of like, sorry, like like 4 packs.
• 52:36
  You couldn't buy a six pack of this stuff.
• 52:39
  And I get it, you know, cost production, lots of stuff, but
• 52:43
  they'd add fruit to these beers as if that was some sort of
• 52:46
  revelatory thing. And then I remember seeing
• 52:48
  Carlton Dry had like 4 different that like basically it was
• 52:53
  cotton dried beer, which is this big mass produced beer that that
• 52:57
  like is, is brewed by Carlton United breweries or whatever.
• 53:00
  And they've just obviously seen this trend of like adding fruit
• 53:04
  to the beer and they've just gone sweet.
• 53:05
  Well, here's a lemon one, here's a lime one, here's a passion
• 53:08
  fruit one, and here's an orange one.
• 53:10
  The market and we'll just literally.
• 53:11
  Graphic design wise. It's just those colors, lime,
• 53:14
  orange, you know, pink, etcetera.
• 53:18
  And we'll charge you $20 less. And So what does everyone do
• 53:23
  that goes and buy? They go, they go and buy them.
• 53:25
  And you can't compete for that. So that whole authentic thing
• 53:29
  just gets completely rug pulled by the fact that it just becomes
• 53:32
  too expensive. But obviously here we're talking
• 53:34
  with about AI, the marginal cost of production is going to keep
• 53:37
  on falling. But are people going to value
• 53:41
  that that slop as much if if it trends to zero?
• 53:48
  I don't know. Yeah, I mean I.
• 53:52
  It already, from what I'm seeing, it already shows that
• 53:54
  consumers don't value as well, right?
• 53:57
  But it's the ones that flip through where they just, they
• 54:00
  don't realize and it's, it's not going to stop because the costs
• 54:05
  collapse. But it also it also gives you an
• 54:08
  opportunity to zig when others zag, right?
• 54:12
  Like you, you do the opposite. So if everybody is scrolling
• 54:17
  through and saying slop after slop and you you do something
• 54:22
  different, it does stand out. It's like even though for the
• 54:25
  wrong reasons, that fire festival, but years ago where
• 54:29
  that their launch campaign was just the orange, whatever it was
• 54:32
  the orange square on an Instagram and he got all the all
• 54:35
  the influences to post it. It was the exact opposite of
• 54:37
  what everyone else was saying. You know, it was all just
• 54:40
  photos. And then all of a sudden you
• 54:41
  just get this random thing that just kind of breaks people out
• 54:43
  of there, you know, mindless scrolling and that makes them
• 54:47
  thin. So yeah, I think there's that's
• 54:49
  definitely going to be true. Is, is, is creativity and being
• 54:52
  original and, and craft is still, I think that's still
• 54:56
  going to prevail. And but it probably, I don't
• 55:02
  want to say this, but it might go in the way of of, you know,
• 55:04
  film cameras and vinyl and things like that, where it
• 55:06
  becomes something that people are happy to pay for, you know,
• 55:10
  because it is created. I don't want to see that, but I
• 55:16
  think that, you know, the, the thing that I am seeing is this
• 55:18
  the capability of this technology, it's going to be
• 55:20
  doing more and more and other, other podcasts I listen to that
• 55:25
  talk about the collapse of knowledge work.
• 55:26
  So it's a strain again, from what we're talking about.
• 55:28
  But anything that's digital, if you sit down at your desk job
• 55:32
  and you click a button and you send emails and stuff, it's just
• 55:35
  like that that work is done. You know, you have to, you have
• 55:38
  to provide more value. You have to, it's like if you're
• 55:43
  a manual labour, you're, you know, electrician, you're all
• 55:46
  these things that add more value to society, will hold value
• 55:50
  longer. But you know, if you're, you're
• 55:53
  an administrator, it's a disappointing position to be in
• 55:58
  because I see those jobs going away just based on my own usage
• 56:03
  of this technology. So, but yeah, like I, I'm
• 56:07
  positive about it in the sense that from my research on that
• 56:10
  piece, it was good to say that humans still valued even input,
• 56:15
  right? They wanted to know that they
• 56:17
  were connecting with real. So that was something positive
• 56:21
  that came out of it, I guess. Yeah.
• 56:23
  The the realness I I don't think.
• 56:25
  Will ever go away and it will just it will charge.
• 56:28
  I mean you say it in one of the headlines is the authenticity
• 56:31
  premium you'll be able to to I mean people do do that.
• 56:35
  It is a shame because on the other side of of that, like you
• 56:38
  think of food, you know, people think that they're eating red
• 56:43
  meat when they buy it from Woolworths or Kohl's or major
• 56:48
  supermarket chains. I don't know where you buy your
• 56:52
  food. Over there in the US or
• 56:53
  elsewhere? But you know, if, if you, if you
• 56:57
  let me just put it this way, if you're buying red meat, if
• 56:59
  you're buying any kind of protein from Woolworths or
• 57:02
  Kohl's or any kind of major supermarket, you're not eating
• 57:06
  very well. You need to, yeah, you need to
• 57:09
  go to a local butcher. Dig a little deeper.
• 57:11
  Yeah. But you gotta pay a premium for
• 57:14
  that, you know, and so. You sometimes.
• 57:15
  People get priced out of that because, you know, yeah, they
• 57:19
  can't. It's awful, yeah.
• 57:21
  And they buy the thing that. They can afford, but you know
• 57:23
  if. You, you, you stick a little bit
• 57:25
  deeper, as you say, and you spend the time know that it's
• 57:28
  better to get, you know, you made from a, from a local
• 57:31
  butcher and build a relationship.
• 57:33
  And you know, rather than buying off the shelf, you, you and your
• 57:36
  friends pitch in and you buy like an actual cow, you know,
• 57:38
  and you get butchered and you stick it in your chest freezer.
• 57:41
  And there's, there's things you can do if you prepare to spend
• 57:44
  the time. And it's about taking life into
• 57:46
  your own hands, right. It's another thing bizarrely
• 57:50
  Bitcoin taught me is think about yourself and your future and
• 57:53
  your health and all that sort of stuff.
• 57:55
  It has made, it seems crazy to say, but it has made me
• 57:58
  healthier. Well, let me ask the question.
• 58:02
  Quick break just to say if you're enjoying.
• 58:04
  The show and. Digging what you hear?
• 58:06
  Please consider supporting discovering Bitcoin by shooting
• 58:09
  Boost and sending or zapping the show.
• 58:11
  Some stats. If you're listening via a
• 58:13
  podcasting 2.0 app such as Fountain Pod, Verse or Breeze,
• 58:18
  it's easier done than said. All you got to do is tap the
• 58:21
  boost button or set an amount of stats to stream per minute while
• 58:26
  you're listening. Alternatively, if you want to
• 58:28
  ZAP me direct via a lightning address, please send zaps and
• 58:32
  sats or zaps of sats in support of the show to discovering
• 58:37
  Bitcoin at primal.net. Thank you for listening and
• 58:41
  thank you for your support now has.
• 58:45
  Discovering Bitcoin changed you. Tough, there it is time.
• 58:52
  Preference for sure, lest of I live this simple life.
• 58:57
  I am not chasing quick, not chasing the quick anymore.
• 59:03
  You know, well, to say I, I was intentionally doing it before,
• 59:07
  but you know, the quick buck or the thing right in front of me
• 59:10
  or you know, just the convenience buy or whatever.
• 59:14
  It's not to say that was like intentional, it was just
• 59:17
  happening. But through Bitcoin, it's made
• 59:22
  me real. It made me slow down a little
• 59:24
  bit and it's through my understanding of the monetary
• 59:27
  system that it's made me do that, you know, because I can't
• 59:31
  remember who said it, but Bitcoin being like your life
• 59:35
  falls money, right? It's it's transferring your
• 59:41
  energy into something so that you can use that energy later
• 59:45
  and you don't want it eroding, you know, and that was an
• 59:48
  interesting way to put it. And and that's kind of the way I
• 59:51
  look at it. It's like slow down, don't try
• 59:57
  and. Live, you know.
• 59:59
  It's still from your own future and, and, and take your time and
• 1:00:04
  and research things. I've spent a bit more time not
• 1:00:07
  rushing into purchases. Definitely taking my time with
• 1:00:12
  that food. Yes, you know, I I fast now.
• 1:00:19
  I don't just stick anything out. I see into my body.
• 1:00:24
  Some some of the stuff that you get through, you learn through
• 1:00:27
  Bitcoin, you absorb through osmosis, through the memes
• 1:00:31
  surrounding Bitcoin, yes, you know.
• 1:00:35
  Grounding and. Being in the sun and all that
• 1:00:37
  kind of stuff. But they're memes for a reason.
• 1:00:41
  And I've, I've, I've also learned that bitcoins are
• 1:00:44
  generally right. It's, it's, it's crazy to me
• 1:00:47
  that I can get access to so much knowledge and of so many smart
• 1:00:51
  people all over the world just through that community.
• 1:00:56
  It's they, they, they pick up on things faster than others.
• 1:01:00
  And so I've generally learned to listen to the alpha, like what
• 1:01:05
  bitcoins are saying online about certain topics.
• 1:01:08
  I, I, I just wait to believe a little bit more than others just
• 1:01:14
  because they've always done the right thing by me.
• 1:01:16
  You know, I've, I've, I read what they say and see and say
• 1:01:20
  and then later on it tends to be directionally correct.
• 1:01:24
  So yeah, I've also learned, as I said before, to be less
• 1:01:29
  trustworthy. I don't know if that's a good
• 1:01:31
  thing, but I'll probably spin it as a positive to say that I'll
• 1:01:36
  take my time to understand things and believe in myself
• 1:01:39
  more, I guess. Trust in your gut and intuition.
• 1:01:43
  Is such an underrated thing and it's something that we almost
• 1:01:46
  get stomped out of us. I think maybe as we age in that
• 1:01:52
  sort of. Between 7:00 and. 14, maybe 14
• 1:01:55
  and 21, period. You know, we kind of forget that
• 1:02:00
  we do have this superpower within us.
• 1:02:03
  We can listen to our heart and our gut and it can generally
• 1:02:06
  lead us in the right direction. And yeah, it's such a superpower
• 1:02:10
  to reclaim that. Yeah.
• 1:02:13
  Yeah. Great.
• 1:02:15
  Interesting. So I mean this is the thing.
• 1:02:18
  Right. Like, I mean, it's it's said
• 1:02:21
  this in the pod. Many times it's a neutral
• 1:02:23
  protocol for. Transmitting value across time
• 1:02:25
  and space, right? And yet people interact with
• 1:02:27
  this thing and whether or not they generate memes, which has
• 1:02:31
  an effect, or write articles which have an effect or, you
• 1:02:36
  know, record podcasts, whatever it is.
• 1:02:38
  But that's, I guess maybe that's the thing that emanates out from
• 1:02:41
  this thing. But we're all connecting to this
• 1:02:44
  source. It's weird.
• 1:02:45
  Like it's like, it's like a field.
• 1:02:48
  It's like, it's like, I mean, if I could get Hindu, Hindu
• 1:02:53
  philosophy for a while, it's like, it's like, it's like
• 1:02:55
  Brahman. It's like the Dao.
• 1:02:57
  It's basically this thing that is just interconnected between
• 1:03:00
  all of us. And we've all, we all know it to
• 1:03:03
  be truthful. The the truth, it is true.
• 1:03:08
  It like and we've just got to kind of well, yeah, awaken.
• 1:03:14
  To it, I suppose. And then when you do, it has
• 1:03:19
  this amplification effect, like it, it takes all of the things
• 1:03:24
  that you are as a person, refines them slightly or at
• 1:03:28
  least compels, compels, impels you to refine them and then like
• 1:03:39
  dig deeper. On them and and and make.
• 1:03:41
  Them better and and start. I guess maybe it is that low
• 1:03:44
  time preference. It's kind of like the catalyst
• 1:03:46
  because you start thinking beyond this next mouthful, this
• 1:03:50
  next day, this next week. It's it's it's strange.
• 1:03:54
  To say that that is such a departure from the way that most
• 1:03:57
  people think, you know, you know what I mean?
• 1:03:59
  Like that is, it's so ingrained in in our it's actually an
• 1:04:02
  anomaly if you think. About it in terms of the Fiat
• 1:04:05
  age, like I mean it is it's, it's an error in the grand arc
• 1:04:09
  of of civilization and history. This is, this is like we're,
• 1:04:13
  we're, we're experiencing error correction through this Bitcoin
• 1:04:16
  thing rather than, yeah, trying like we're trying to get back to
• 1:04:21
  something that, you know, that there's a, there's a value to
• 1:04:25
  spending the time like I'm talking about craftsman's,
• 1:04:33
  artisanal Craftsman building tables or guitars or whatever it
• 1:04:36
  is. And the quality is inherent.
• 1:04:38
  I can remember so and what, what's kind of fucked up, right?
• 1:04:42
  So I've got a friend, they recently just finished building
• 1:04:45
  their house and one of the things was like 28 weeks to
• 1:04:50
  completion or something like that.
• 1:04:52
  Like, like go with us because we'll, we'll build your house in
• 1:04:54
  28 weeks. Yeah, right.
• 1:04:56
  And I was talking to a. Friend of mine and they were.
• 1:04:59
  Like my grandpa used to just build one house 1/4.
• 1:05:04
  Like he bought build 4 houses a year and they he did everything
• 1:05:08
  from the ground up, basically the brick laying, the plumbing,
• 1:05:12
  everything. And they're still standing in a
• 1:05:15
  name that should be on like, you know, not revealed, but you know
• 1:05:19
  what I mean? Like they're they're all still
• 1:05:20
  there. And so which which?
• 1:05:23
  We're trying to get just get back.
• 1:05:24
  To that, that notion of authenticity, I mean the AI slot
• 1:05:27
  that gets poured and produced every single day is, is yes,
• 1:05:33
  difficult to wait. For but yeah.
• 1:05:35
  The the the analogy of the. Builder is a really good one
• 1:05:39
  because in our world, things have to scale in order to be
• 1:05:44
  profitable, right? In order to make a living out of
• 1:05:46
  it, you can't do one house anymore.
• 1:05:49
  You've got to do 10 at once. And in order to do that, you,
• 1:05:53
  you can't have one team of people.
• 1:05:54
  You have to have, you know, 203050 subcontractors all go
• 1:05:59
  across all different jobs and they're all working for other
• 1:06:02
  builders. And then timelines flip and, you
• 1:06:05
  know, materials get delayed and that, that whole industry, I
• 1:06:11
  feel for custom builders, small builders, they, they, it needs a
• 1:06:18
  reform. Something has to change,
• 1:06:19
  especially in Australia. I, I had my house built through
• 1:06:22
  COVID. I had a renovation done.
• 1:06:25
  And it was, I know the owner really cared, like he tried his
• 1:06:29
  best, but it was a, it was a very difficult period.
• 1:06:32
  And I just saw the pain and, you know, and I, I came out all
• 1:06:37
  right, I can't find it. I'm, I'm very happy in the end,
• 1:06:39
  but you know, I, there's no chance for the average 2223, you
• 1:06:45
  know, young person to go through that system without an
• 1:06:50
  exceptional amount of debt. And it worries me a lot.
• 1:06:53
  Like it would, that would be great if you just had, like you
• 1:06:56
  say, a guy and he's, I've got me and two other guys and we just
• 1:07:00
  build a house every quarter and it's going to be great.
• 1:07:02
  It's going to last a test of the test of time.
• 1:07:06
  But our current system doesn't doesn't make it happen.
• 1:07:09
  You know, it doesn't let it work.
• 1:07:10
  And it's the same with like mothers having to go back into
• 1:07:15
  the workforce, you know, and they can the kids in daycare and
• 1:07:21
  it's horrible. And that's actually, you know,
• 1:07:23
  to your question, I've probably become a little bit more
• 1:07:27
  traditionalist and conservative because I just, you see the
• 1:07:33
  result of this system and, and how it breaks has broken people
• 1:07:36
  and it's not good, you know, and it'd be great if the, the kid
• 1:07:43
  that worked hard at 25 could just buy a house and start a
• 1:07:47
  family, but he has to take a multi. $1,000,000 punt you.
• 1:07:52
  Know and be in debt for 30 plus years now you know 5% down great
• 1:07:58
  idea yeah we'll earn 5% of it like.
• 1:08:01
  Joint custody with the state that's a that's always ended
• 1:08:04
  well. It's just first that I I.
• 1:08:08
  There's a profound sadness, you know, and I don't have the
• 1:08:11
  answers, but yeah. I mean, Bitcoin, Bitcoin,
• 1:08:15
  Bitcoin is. Yeah.
• 1:08:15
  Well, yeah. And anarchism like that's why
• 1:08:20
  that's. Anarchism.
• 1:08:21
  That's yeah. I mean, I transfer, you know
• 1:08:24
  it's not. Buying it's, it's transferring
• 1:08:25
  my energy into it. So I, I, I, I try to tell
• 1:08:29
  people. I don't try to ram it down their
• 1:08:31
  throat. If they're interested, I'll give
• 1:08:33
  them all the information I can. But it's a, it's a lesson that
• 1:08:38
  people need to take themselves. And, you know, kind of makes it
• 1:08:40
  sound like a religion, but it's just one of those things I've
• 1:08:44
  found trying to tell people about it.
• 1:08:48
  I don't know, I haven't cracked it yet.
• 1:08:51
  Haven't cracked it yet. Well, it's difficult.
• 1:08:55
  It is difficult and and you. Can't stop people from not
• 1:08:58
  discovering it. Once they discover it, once
• 1:09:01
  they're ready, they will, they will, they'll know to tap Jared
• 1:09:05
  on the on the shoulder or send you Adm or whatever and be like,
• 1:09:08
  hey, man, all right, like what's to go with this Bitcoin thing?
• 1:09:11
  Until then, you can't, you can't force it down people's throats.
• 1:09:14
  It's really difficult to hand sell and people have to be
• 1:09:17
  ready, yeah, when this, what is it, The student is ready, the
• 1:09:22
  teacher will appear, something like that.
• 1:09:25
  What do you wish more people knew about Bitcoin though,
• 1:09:28
  having said all that? You don't have to buy. 1 SAT you
• 1:09:39
  can just have a SAT 37 SAT is all you need.
• 1:09:45
  That it's more accessible. Than people think, and it's not
• 1:09:48
  some fringe thing, you know, I, I, I wish people realized, like
• 1:09:53
  in our western, you know, privileged western society,
• 1:09:57
  people think I've got, you know, why do I need it?
• 1:10:00
  You know, I've got money in the bank, but it's all the it's the
• 1:10:04
  rest of the world that it serves.
• 1:10:05
  Those are that. Are underprivileged and it
• 1:10:07
  provides immense value to them. You know, not skip political,
• 1:10:12
  but look at the look at the people of Iran, right?
• 1:10:15
  You can, you can put your, your energy into this and it will
• 1:10:20
  reward you over time. It's, it's, it takes time, but
• 1:10:26
  it's how it works. And it's proven to be that way
• 1:10:29
  for many years now. So it's, it is more accessible
• 1:10:33
  than people think. It's something don't, don't
• 1:10:37
  think of it as something that's going to get you rich.
• 1:10:39
  That's not the point. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's
• 1:10:44
  the, it's always there, right? Like it just, it just does its
• 1:10:46
  thing. It doesn't care about anything
• 1:10:48
  else. Yeah, I mean, what's what's
• 1:10:53
  there's a, a, a Sydney Bitcoiner who runs Bitcoiner live his name
• 1:10:59
  right now. Chris, Chris, great guy.
• 1:11:04
  And you know, he was telling me he was having a chat with him
• 1:11:07
  and he's like, I don't even look at the, the price per say.
• 1:11:10
  You know, he's trying to cut that out of his life and he's
• 1:11:13
  right. It's a distraction.
• 1:11:14
  It doesn't matter. You know, it's not about the the
• 1:11:19
  price in USD. It's not even something that
• 1:11:23
  after a while it becomes irrelevant and you just make the
• 1:11:26
  decision to store your your energy in it.
• 1:11:32
  You know, I don't know, it sounds philosophical, but it's
• 1:11:33
  kind of how I. Look it as well so.
• 1:11:35
  It takes a long time for people to get, It takes a long time for
• 1:11:38
  people to get to that point. So yeah, I guess, yeah, It's,
• 1:11:43
  it's, it's not, I would say for people that are, you know, every
• 1:11:47
  in Western societies, generally it's not for them, you know,
• 1:11:50
  like the, the real value proposition of it, you know,
• 1:11:53
  because they think that they've just got their own, their own
• 1:11:55
  money in the bank and they look past the fact that it's for
• 1:11:58
  everybody. They, you got to look past your
• 1:12:02
  own situation, which for some people it's hard to do so.
• 1:12:07
  Yeah, yeah. It's like first growth burgundy.
• 1:12:10
  You can't you. Know it's not.
• 1:12:11
  It's not. If you're in the in the first
• 1:12:15
  world, in the in the well, I mean, let's be honest, to be
• 1:12:19
  like I've been thinking about this quite lately.
• 1:12:20
  I'll just quickly just go off on one, one second.
• 1:12:23
  Australia is lapping as a developed nation.
• 1:12:26
  I, I, I feel apparently we have the economic complexity less
• 1:12:30
  than Botswana. We net export all of the, you
• 1:12:34
  know, the raw materials and then buy them back on on on spot and
• 1:12:39
  and pay a a premium for it. I don't know if I I think
• 1:12:44
  Australians do need Bitcoin and, and I don't think we are a first
• 1:12:47
  world nation. I don't think we're developed in
• 1:12:49
  any way, shape or form. We have the infrastructure that
• 1:12:52
  gives the impact. I mean, yes, OK, fine.
• 1:12:54
  If you actually went boots on the ground to places, you know,
• 1:12:59
  in in Africa and and South America stuff get it sure, but
• 1:13:05
  yeah, I would argue that certainly if you're in
• 1:13:07
  Australia, if you don't have any Bitcoin, you better you better
• 1:13:11
  discover quick sticks yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm not saying you
• 1:13:16
  know, it's. Not for Australians, I
• 1:13:18
  completely agree it is, But people, I guess my point was
• 1:13:22
  that they people don't think, they don't tend to see the
• 1:13:25
  benefit of it because of where they stand.
• 1:13:28
  Yes, right, because they like the mixed-use building.
• 1:13:32
  You know that that has. Like the police sign at the
• 1:13:35
  bottom and half the, the new builds are empty and, and
• 1:13:40
  there's water and concrete rust and cancer falling over the side
• 1:13:45
  and you know, yeah, of the pipes and they've been up for six
• 1:13:49
  months, but they played like that.
• 1:13:50
  They think that that's that's it's also it's.
• 1:13:53
  It's a simple user experience. Thing right?
• 1:13:56
  Like in my game, the the most frictionless UI and the most
• 1:14:01
  frictionless experience wins. Generally design gets out of the
• 1:14:04
  way, right? And so with with Bitcoin, you
• 1:14:08
  know, they think, well, look, I've already got Osco payments
• 1:14:11
  in my bank account and that's instant.
• 1:14:14
  Why do I need that? And like, what happens if I
• 1:14:16
  forget the password, you know, oh, you know, I can't reverse a
• 1:14:20
  transaction. There's no one to call, you know
• 1:14:22
  what I mean? Like there's, there's these,
• 1:14:23
  there's these basic barriers that that people just
• 1:14:26
  instinctively don't look past. They just get, ah, that just
• 1:14:29
  sounds not, not right, not for me.
• 1:14:31
  But they don't scratch a little bit deeper to understand why
• 1:14:35
  those things exist, like why it is the way it is.
• 1:14:38
  Because we're so ingrained, you know, you know, you know, our
• 1:14:42
  experience and three things has been calcified to sort of hand
• 1:14:46
  off responsibility to the other. You know, it's about having my
• 1:14:50
  details. When you think about it, it's a
• 1:14:52
  really odd thing to sign into things with an e-mail address.
• 1:14:56
  You know, what is an e-mail address?
• 1:14:57
  You know, it's it's, it's, it's weird when you really think
• 1:15:00
  about it, like that's your identity for this service, an
• 1:15:03
  e-mail, you know that we can get.
• 1:15:06
  I know it's insane. That's right.
• 1:15:08
  And and. And things have changed.
• 1:15:10
  Right. So you're doing a wire transfer.
• 1:15:12
  You know, it's so complicated and it takes hours to go to your
• 1:15:16
  bank and share a wire, all these details, But at a time it was
• 1:15:19
  the best we had. So there's these friction
• 1:15:22
  problems with the experience that people can't get past and
• 1:15:27
  we lots of people trying to solve it, you know, but I think
• 1:15:29
  I think Bitcoin still has a way to go there, right?
• 1:15:32
  Like I was thinking about this a while ago.
• 1:15:36
  This is again another sort of tangent, but like, how does how
• 1:15:39
  does a blind person transact with Bitcoin, right?
• 1:15:42
  Like if you you're trying to save your see phrase, how do you
• 1:15:50
  do that? How do?
• 1:15:50
  You set that up. You don't want to.
• 1:15:52
  Read it out to you, you know, or when you're transacting in a
• 1:15:55
  public environment, there's, there's all these challenges
• 1:15:57
  that I don't think it's solved yet or others, you know, people
• 1:16:02
  are working on them, but there's still work to do, I guess in
• 1:16:06
  that space. And I, I would hope that people
• 1:16:10
  have the, I guess, desire and, and and want to try.
• 1:16:17
  And look past you. Know the way things are, always
• 1:16:19
  are, right? It's the hard thing to get past,
• 1:16:22
  but yeah, anyway, that's an extraordinary question I'm going
• 1:16:26
  to be thinking about. That for quite a while.
• 1:16:31
  Think about it. Yeah.
• 1:16:33
  I, I I. I'm an accessibility advocate,
• 1:16:36
  right? Like I, I do believe like a lot
• 1:16:40
  of people in Australia do have genuine disability and they,
• 1:16:43
  they need access to goods and services like everybody else and
• 1:16:47
  Bitcoin at the moment is a challenge for them to use.
• 1:16:49
  So it's an open problem, one that cannot be solved by the
• 1:16:55
  NDIS. Or rides.
• 1:16:59
  Yeah, yeah, maybe one day I'll have a crack at it.
• 1:17:02
  Oh I'd love that. I've actually got an idea for an
• 1:17:04
  app I. Was talking to some buddies
• 1:17:06
  about there's a few hurdles but I've got an idea.
• 1:17:12
  What does Bitcoin mean to you? It is a rock and.
• 1:17:21
  It is I guess. Safety is something that is
• 1:17:28
  always there. I mean, it's, it's the, it's
• 1:17:33
  that saying it's true, it's hope, right?
• 1:17:34
  It just. It doesn't need.
• 1:17:36
  Anything else doesn't know it, doesn't care about politics,
• 1:17:39
  doesn't care about what's happening in the day or so
• 1:17:43
  there's this reliable backbone there where I I know that I can
• 1:17:51
  feel comfortable and confident that my energy is is is stored
• 1:17:57
  in the right place. Yeah, I guess.
• 1:18:01
  I guess that's it for me. Love it.
• 1:18:05
  A rock. I think that's the first time.
• 1:18:08
  Anyone. 'S ever described this described
• 1:18:11
  Bitcoin or referred to Bitcoin like that on this pod I and it
• 1:18:16
  makes complete sense the rock I I think that Jared thank you so
• 1:18:21
  much man for spending some scarce time finding our energy
• 1:18:24
  telling us the tale of how you discovered Bitcoin.
• 1:18:26
  This has been a a pleasure and thank you for indulging me in my
• 1:18:29
  AI question. No worries, like I mean,
• 1:18:34
  likewise, it's it's been great. I.
• 1:18:36
  Appreciate the reach out. I'm going to set that.
• 1:18:40
  I'm going to get my articles out of Nosta so and if you ever want
• 1:18:44
  to have a chat again let me know.
• 1:18:45
  This has been really great, I've enjoyed it.