Latest / Connect Call / EP12 - Wilderness Therapy: Safety and Best Practices with Derek Daley

Transcript

EP12 - Wilderness Therapy: Safety and Best Practices with Derek Daley · Connect Call

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, you've reached the voicemail of Hannah Brett with Connect Call.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Just leave a message and I'll get back to you soon as I can.
0:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
0:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one for more options.
0:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, Hannah.
0:11
[SPEAKER_03]: We got your number from Psych Higher just for working with.
0:15
[SPEAKER_03]: My son has just turned 18, but as an adolescent, we have tried every modality, every therapist.
0:25
[SPEAKER_03]: We've tried outpatient PHP.
0:27
[SPEAKER_03]: We've also tried
0:28
[SPEAKER_03]: a couple of stints in residential treatment where my son ran as an adolescence and we're kind of now working with an interventionist but to find maybe trying a different approach and looking at wilderness treatment.
0:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I know there's some great programs out there as well, some bad programs, and we're looking to get steered in the right direction.
0:48
[SPEAKER_03]: So I was hoping you could call me back and give us some guidance.
0:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I look forward to your call and thank you.
0:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, this is Hannah Brett, and here we are for another episode of Connect Call, where I often say I do not have a clinical background, but I do have a PhD for picking up the phone for families in crisis over the past 20 years.
1:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Derek Daley is the co-founder of Legacy Treatment Center and Juniper Canyon Recovery Center, which are both young adult programs.
1:17
[SPEAKER_02]: He serves also as the president of the National Association of Therapy to Schools and Programs, otherwise known as Natsap.
1:24
[SPEAKER_02]: For more than two decades, he has advanced wilderness therapy, outdoor behavioral health care, and addiction treatment through program development, long-term outcome, research, public policy, and field leadership.
1:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can go on and on about UDARQ.
1:38
[SPEAKER_02]: You've also, you have a foundation where you have raised funds to scholarship a lot of these kids to be able to access treatment.
1:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was important to have someone like you on the show to clear up a lot of
1:54
[SPEAKER_02]: and so I just wanted to say welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here.
1:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you know why it was it was really important first and foremost to have you on this show was there are good apples and there are bad apples.
2:07
[SPEAKER_02]: When people hear the term wilderness therapy today, many immediately think of stories in the headlines like of what Paris Hilton went through.
2:15
[SPEAKER_02]: and how this is kind of shaped this perception.
2:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, what I've seen is a lot of our colleagues and friends and really great programs have to close their doors because parents really believed that was the norm for everything you would share of wilderness.
2:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, even recently when I was, I was just saying to Derek, I was trying to refer a young woman to junior per Canyon and mind you legacy outdoors and junior per Canyon, I have been working personally for years and you guys do amazing amazing work.
2:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You have this brilliant bridge for residential component with this wilderness piece.
2:51
[SPEAKER_02]: we were talking to a family about Juniper Canyon, you know, and immediately, they go, oh, no, no, no, it's going to be like what Paris helped and went through, or, you know, the, you know, my kid's going to get snatched in the middle of the night and they immediately go there, right?
3:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I wanted to clear up some things, and I, and also, although you guys just treat younger adults, I think,
3:16
[SPEAKER_02]: the troubled teen industry, which I will talk a time and time again about how that is a completely different beast than the treatment that I refer to that we work with, as soon as I see troubled teen in someone's mission statement or behavioral modification in their mission statement, I kind of run and tell families to run.
3:34
[SPEAKER_02]: How did that kind of shape the public perception out there?
3:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, no great great great question.
3:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean first let me start by saying hey, thanks for having me on Hannah.
3:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I think hosting these conversations is so important being able to pull back the curtain on the still so that we can learn together and prove together increase transparency.
3:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's it's so important in behavioral health care and I think it's something that we all got to invest in as how do we
4:01
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we create context and how do we learn together, how do we improve together, and that's certainly what I've seen.
4:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, in regards to Paris and will there be and and her, her story and her, her advocacy, I think it's shine a light and, you know,
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll share for a little bit from personal, just personally, you know, when I discovered Holderness Therapy in the early 2000s, I felt like I discovered magic, you know, it was incredible.
4:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I experienced was, was so personally profound, you know, I watched people.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's so intuitive, right?
4:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I have these conversations with people over and over again, just one on one and just their own context, like connecting with nature.
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: just as as a baseline, like people understand that.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And and wilderness therapy is is is as a way of really tapping into that power that today we have more research than ever before that supports how important it is to find ways to connect, not just youth or adolescents adult anyone, you know,
5:07
[SPEAKER_00]: to nature components.
5:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's going to improve our health.
5:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm a big believer in that.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I experienced it firsthand 20 years ago, first gathering around those fires in the Utah desert.
5:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched people having these profound healing experiences.
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: They were sleeping under the stars.
5:22
[SPEAKER_00]: They were gathering around a fire and and and sharing their souls.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was sharing my and it just I I
5:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know it at the time, but I now know years later, I discovered a purpose and a passion.
5:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And from that moment, you know, one of another thing that was going on for me at that time as I had family members who were struggling with mental health and substance abuse and subsequently, I lost family members to what I view as poor behavioral health care services.
5:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I discovered something at the same time that I thought could be a real answer.
5:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it really set me on a mission of like, how do we,
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: how do we make this more accessible to more families because I thought it was that powerful.
6:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can imagine, I discovered this thing, it's beautiful.
6:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these still guys out there, they're compassionate, they got backpacks on like the type of people drawn to this work are healers, right?
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I come into this work and and that's 20 years ago in
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we work.
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And during that time, I get to work with Dr. Maddie Liebing and Gil Hallows, and I get to pick up some of their work, which they had been doing a lot of advocacy within the state to increase policy, to increase accountability, to raise standards, to implement accreditation.
6:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And so by the time I got on the scene, you know, a lot of these programs, including one's Paris went to, they were closed.
6:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
6:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some of the worst actors like the Netflix series on Challenger, you know, they were closed a decade before I came on the scene.
6:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I didn't, I didn't, I don't have any first hand experience with like, I guess what would be called the old school sort of boot camp model and, and that.
7:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think, you know, one of the interesting things, if we want to tell the whole story, right, is as, you know, some of the early wilderness experiences,
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: early practitioners basically took people from colleges or areas and took them out on these experiences and what they found was it was very effective.
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And then from that it grew, it grew.
7:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what happened was as you had corporations come in and programs and people buy in and sort of trying to, I think, more profit off of what was a really and is a very powerful experience.
7:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where, you know, if I track it back, I think you see some of the bad practices and actors come in.
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And but I think an untold story often or under overlook story is that this filled wilderness therapy and just behavioral health care in general when you go on the ground and you meet practitioners and people doing this work the vast majority of them are
7:53
[SPEAKER_00]: their healers themselves, their compassionate, and many of them have their own stories of woundings in this field, and that drives them to sort of raise the bar.
8:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I just, as I do this work as a Natsat president, I get to visit programs and I get to visit people.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: What I see is people doing the very best they can to elevate care and protect people.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the motivation.
8:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when Paris comes on a scene with some of this stuff and raise it, I see it as more or less a good thing.
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: because, you know, it's, to me, what I see is a shared agenda, which is how do we, how do we increase safety?
8:30
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we increase effectiveness and how we make it easier for families who are in search finding good programs?
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we tell a good program from the bad one?
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And the better we can do that and behavioral health care, the better it's going to be for all of us.
8:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little harder and behavioral health care than it is in in medical care, right?
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it is a little more subjective.
8:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think what I would bring to the conversation is context.
8:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Who are the populations being served?
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what does their risk profile look like at home?
9:04
[SPEAKER_00]: What does their risk profile look like it in wilderness therapy?
9:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What does the effectiveness look like?
9:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And how good can we evidence this stuff?
9:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And today, the cool part is, is we've got things like the Wilderness Therapy Safe to report that really dove in and try to answer some of these questions and one of the things that just discovered, right, this deep dive, is that clients, students, are 6.5 times safer in Wilderness Therapy than they are in their own homes.
9:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And then again, and it repeats its point, so specifically it's looking at the likelihood of like a serious incident in wilderness therapy.
9:43
[SPEAKER_00]: There are six point five times more likely to experience that living the regular life than in wilderness therapy.
9:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Now some context there is we're working often with a higher risk population.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So you add that.
9:57
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that tell us?
9:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It tells us that these interventions are very safe.
10:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, what's important is you got to be looking at license and accredited programs.
10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And as somebody who's been on site as an accreditor of programs and not provided them accreditation, because they didn't meet the standards.
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's evidence that we were headed in the right direction.
10:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, when, you know, being on the ground, visiting programs to do the accreditation, when program didn't meet those standards, we're able to immediately provide recommendations in some of those cases those programs closed.
10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that's the important work is how do we pull back the curtain to ensure programs for providing the level of care that we expect?
10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what the survivor community has in this field itself is a lot of motivated leaders
10:44
[SPEAKER_00]: who at share the same goal.
10:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we can evidence a lot of that.
10:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when it comes to wilderness therapy specifically to this day, there's nothing that I have found that I believe more in than the power of going out on a rights of passage experience.
11:02
[SPEAKER_00]: He rose journey and spending time just having that healing journey.
11:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think particularly right now with some of the issues that we see with this generation
11:13
[SPEAKER_00]: isolation, screen time, process of digging us, less time outside, I think it's needed now more than ever.
11:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, one of the things I'll share right now, which is my favorite piece of research on Nature Connectus connectedness, when when we take people into nature, three big outcomes that we see is it increases self-love.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: it increases our compassion for others, and it increases our care for the natural world or the earth.
11:41
[SPEAKER_00]: What three better outcomes could we hope for?
11:43
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I'm looking to expand wilderness therapy, but not just in the traditional form of wilderness therapy, but, you know, how do we get, how do we provide earlier opportunities for people to connect with nature?
11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it's really sad and unfortunate that wilderness therapy
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: got hijacked by some programs that I never even got to see, and that's sort of shaped the view.
12:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of people in this field actually struggled continuing to call what they do, wilderness therapy.
12:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be honest and upfront, and I think what we do is wilderness therapy, and I think it's powerful.
12:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I want to be a part of like taking the honor back of what that is and not let the worst case scenarios hijack the term.
12:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's so important to say over the years of me representing adolescent and young adult programs, I did not represent a wilderness program, but I did represent a lot of adolescent programs.
12:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And where I saw even the adolescent programs get hijacked is by this troubled teen industry, or this, as I say to families time and time again, if you see the word troubled teen or behavioral modification in the mission statement,
12:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That really has nothing to do with any evidence-based, you know, true adolescent treatment, and definitely has nothing to do with what's going on with Wilderness.
13:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like I know, I mean, I can just speak first hand in the 20 years that I've been doing this, where the work you guys have done has really hit that sweet spot is for those individuals, for those young adults and adolescents who,
13:23
[SPEAKER_02]: they needed this kind of wilderness intervention of sorts, that we were finding in that traditional residential setting, it wasn't enough, or just with what we were seeing at home and how they were showing up and not showing up, the best kind of intervention that could have happened is them to be plucked out of their daily life behind the screen and hiding in their bedroom
13:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And time and time again, I will say this and I'm not just saying this because I have Derek on the show and because, you know, we're doing this episode, I have my personally have not had an experience where this hasn't been effective, you know?
14:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, just like any other program, just like anything else, there are again bad apples and there also have been unfortunate situations, right?
14:14
[SPEAKER_02]: But the mass majority and at least the cases that I've worked on, you know, there's a
14:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is going to sound horrible.
14:22
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not horrible, but like I can think of right now, there was a therapist work to the treatment at a wilderness program.
14:30
[SPEAKER_02]: his name was Griff.
14:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you know Griff very well.
14:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope you do.
14:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And he no longer does this work, but what was so amazing about him is when I had cases of especially young men that nobody else could get to.
14:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody else's voice or treatment could really make it have an effect on these young men and they were just their behavior was off the charts.
14:51
[SPEAKER_02]: They were running from programs or stealing cars and you name it.
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he was this whisperer of sorts that was able to get through through the treatment and the wilderness setting and also just who he was and that's the magic in the work we do.
15:10
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?
15:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it goes into my next question.
15:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, for families out there looking at programs, you know, what are some of the red flags that families should be aware of, you know, things to, you know, go, this probably is not a good place for my child to go.
15:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
15:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, right off the top, you know, you're going to want to look for programs that are licensed and accredited by an accrediting body.
15:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're looking at A. E. Joint Commission, you know, those are important because that what that tells you is there they're being audited by an outside third party.
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: to make sure they're adhering to best practices and having gone through that process many many times and also being on the ground as a creditor, it's a deep dive and every time you go through those processes, you're hit with some recommendations for improvement and I've seen that only improve over time, best practices are constantly evolving and we're working to do those things and so right off the bat, I would do that the other piece that I always tell
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: as a program should be able to evidence in some way that they do what they say they do.
16:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So there should be some program evaluation that shows some transparency.
16:24
[SPEAKER_00]: If we treat anxiety or if we're an eating disorder, you just name it, right?
16:29
[SPEAKER_00]: If we say this is what we do, we should have some method of saying this is what our results look like.
16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And ideally, that could be program evaluation and there's a lot of ways to get that information to study it.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And even working with researchers to publish research would be the next level of that, right?
16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how we push the field forward.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's always, I think it behavioral health care.
16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: There's been this like fear of like I've got the special sauce.
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to share it.
16:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in the medical field.
17:01
[SPEAKER_00]: When you see advancement, it spreads quickly.
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we need to adopt that same philosophy that like, hey, you know, let's pull back the curtain and show what we're doing works and another people and now allow other people to adopt those same things that's how we will we'll elevate a care together.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, I think what what has happened to behavioral help, which we don't see in the medical world as much.
17:23
[SPEAKER_00]: is two things existing at the same time.
17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got some of the best programs in the world and some that are not so great at all.
17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're able to coexist and as a parent or a family, you're talking to savvy marketers, it can be really difficult to tell the difference.
17:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
17:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That is something that has been a priority for me going back 10, 15 years.
17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Is how do we create more transparency?
17:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that outcome will be two things.
17:50
[SPEAKER_00]: In my opinion, is that we will be able to spread more effective practices and increase access for people.
17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's a great outcome.
17:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The other part of that is programs were not meeting the standards will be held accountable and not
18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be, they'll not be able to operate because, you know, we'll have the methods to expose that.
18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm pretty passionate about that and that's why I think the associations like Natsap and, you know, you get a lot of critiques for being these because they go, you know, you'll go back 20 years and, you know, some, a program that closed was an association member.
18:22
[SPEAKER_00]: The value in these associations, you've got to have some place to come together where you can have these discussions and that includes the history.
18:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
18:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you just you pick the baton up where you get it in that process and our job as leaders is to take that move it forward.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is a very effective to do that through Paul with policymakers and with associations because it's just an easier way to get programs to it here.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, Natsap did not require accreditation.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So when it started, it's trade organization, people showed up and we would share learning and you'd go to presentations and there was certainly value in it.
18:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But a number of years ago, Natsap made the difficult decision.
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was a difficult decision for some to require accreditation and what happened is we lost some members.
19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's that important, right?
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We want the programs that are part of Natsap to be adhering to to the top level, right?
19:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no, and there's still, yeah, go ahead.
19:19
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I was going to say this is why, and again, this isn't with all due respect.
19:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not ripping on Jacob or Carfa accreditation by any means, but I desperately, and a lot of my colleagues, and I've discussed how we are in such dire need of new licensure and new governing kind of
19:42
[SPEAKER_02]: lot of things a lot of stuff is not being really addressed.
19:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what you're seeing is still as and this isn't the same for wilderness and everybody would not sap, but we are we are seeing, you know, in the residential setting that some people get that stamp of approval from Cartham Jaco and they're still not ethical practices going on there.
20:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there needs to be more of these experts who have actually done this work like yourself kind of leading the charge and saying, well, these are the things that really need to get the stamp of approval, these are the things that need to be happening, you know, and I mean.
20:17
[SPEAKER_00]: your spot on your spot on I mean the reality is is you know joint commission sets a bar and that bar is looking at best practices in some of these these pieces and if a program can't meet that bar
20:32
[SPEAKER_00]: that's a concern, right, because it's very, now, and they do require in that process that you're tracking some outcomes, but that bar is very, very low.
20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I'm the parent, you know, am I more interested that a program is been accredited in meeting the best practices or am I more interested in the actual outcomes?
20:52
[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, can they demonstrate their actual safety and can they demonstrate their actual effectiveness?
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Join Commission doesn't bring that stuff to the forefront.
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
21:03
[SPEAKER_00]: They're making sure that you have a fire extinguisher and that you're, you've got these ethical practices in place, which is great.
21:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the more important question for us is we've got to be able to lead with, yes, we meet the best practices.
21:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We're adhering to these things.
21:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, here's our safety record.
21:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's our outcomes.
21:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just agree with you, I think that, you know, I think, and here's the cool part is we're starting to see some evolution on this front and you're starting to see programs and in the coming years at Natsap for example, what you will see is more programs evidencing what they do.
21:42
[SPEAKER_00]: it's such a such an important piece.
21:44
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, you know, part of what we're doing with policymakers and some of this is I think been supported by the survivor movement is, you know, some of the things that need to happen at the policy level have needed to happen for a long time and innovators and heroes in this work push to put in some regulations and to hold some of those programs accountable.
22:04
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why they went out of business.
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: but they're still work to do and some of this work now is happening that I'm excited to see and I want to be a part of those those conversations because I want to see the field hold the self countable.
22:19
[SPEAKER_02]: With that being said, and this is for a completely different episode, and this is something I feel very strongly about too is when you're talking about like evidence based, you know, treatment and outcomes, something that I found frustrating and I just dealt with this recently with a family and where they went to their congregation for referrals and all three programs that this father had given to me to look at for their son, they were all under this bracket of,
22:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Christ centered and faith based.
22:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I have nothing against faith.
22:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I have nothing against spirituality, but just like that has nothing to do with the chemo treatment you may be getting for your cancer or for the surgery on that broken leg.
22:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It should have also nothing to really do is the core of why your loved one is going to
23:05
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, for treatment for mental health and addiction, what was really unfortunate for me to see is all three programs, you know, there was no outcome studies or evidence-based treatment going on A and B that all I was seeing was this troubled teen word and this behavioral modification.
23:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And to me, it's just very dangerous under this kind of guise of Christ centered.
23:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I get scared when I hear, and again, this is totally off topic, but when I see and hear about, you know, Robert Kennedy Jr. preaching about how millions of millions of dollars are going to be going into putting out all these faith-based treatments programs all over the country.
23:42
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, we're not really talking about
23:44
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, this money being put into what you're talking about, which is more and more of these programs, we need to have, you know, be held accountable for what they're doing and what, you know, and I think, again, that is another, that's another episode for another time, but, you know, I think, I think, just to get back on track, I think, you know, I guess, can you explain the
24:09
[SPEAKER_02]: quickly like what a kid who had gone through something that Paris helped and went through the difference between that and kind of what is the good treatment today.
24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, fundamentally, right, and you learn this when you go to school is a clinician.
24:25
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the most important factors in being effective in therapy and that therapy relationship is having trust and having a relationship.
24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, whether you're going to weekly therapy on an outpatient basis, it the effectiveness of that process is largely dependent on how much trust
24:44
[SPEAKER_00]: in relationship you have in the person that you're working with.
24:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I think, I think, you know, one of the things that I would point to is that what I see, certainly at Legacy and I see in the field, is an absolute focus on providing care.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Care.
24:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that we care.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We, and we're gonna treat each person that comes through the door has as somebody who would be our own family member, right?
25:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and treat him with that sort of love and respect.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: with with just love and compassion and and a belief that like what we're doing is has value and and we're going to engage in these activities and and and and be honest but be caring and I think that that's you know that's something that I see largely in this field is the amount of.
25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: of passion and desire to help people is worthy of celebration, right?
25:39
[SPEAKER_00]: If people come in and see some of these frontline workers and see some of the guides and some of the clinicians and the hours that they put in and the work that they do and the collaboration and the tools that they try to use to help people.
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that there would be a lot more understanding and support for the work that we're doing.
26:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I often call some of, you know, over the years where I think I am so passionate in the work that I do and I can say I say more and more of a connector than I ever was a representative or a rep for a program is over the years I would walk into these rooms or go to these programs and I would
26:20
[SPEAKER_02]: can connect with people where I literally, it was magic where I would see that they were like these angels in human suits.
26:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I was like, ah, they are doing the good work.
26:31
[SPEAKER_02]: They are making a difference.
26:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I would collect them as people to refer to.
26:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I knew, some of the most amazing people I have met in the work I've done, especially, I see this in this wilderness treatment.
26:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like a story, like we just shared, like they just have this way of getting in touch with this kid or young adult or adult that nobody else can do.
26:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, leading into the kind of the next question is, who would you consider a good candidate for the work you do and who would not be a good candidate for three.
27:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
27:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And legacy in junior per Canyon.
27:12
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure for sure and maybe even before that I'll just share some sort of a thought on that is, if we take, for example, the adolescent population, like let's look at, like, young women, for example, since 2020, I think this is one of the larger misconceptions in behavioral health care is, you know, that the systems that we have put in place, evidence-based systems we have put in place, what it looks like for many families and certainly for young women
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: you get a diagnosis and you get a prescription.
27:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Prescriptions are up about 64% for that population since 2020.
27:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It's massive.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So we are currently treating our pot.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not anti-maticate medication by no means, but we are using that as the first go-to means of treating the population.
27:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And what are we getting?
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The results are getting worse.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We're seeing anxiety, depression, and isolation.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: All those things are increasing.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I don't think those are the means to help.
28:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And just say on that point, just as someone who does struggle with depression and anxiety and I have a therapist and we talk about this all the time, that's just a piece of my puzzle, right, taking that med, but if I just did that med alone with nothing else going on, without doing my own DBT practices or having to, you know, bring
28:31
[SPEAKER_02]: nature into my life on the daily or, you know, connecting with human beings like that pill doesn't really do anything, right?
28:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have to a lot of people, I think just say, oh, I'm going to diagnose my kid.
28:43
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to be put on a med and they're going to be fixed.
28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's not how it works.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, absolutely.
28:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we just look at it in like a just a case example of let's just picture somebody like a legacy client who has and there's many cases just in those last month that would fit this profile.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody who has been isolating has been gaming, who has not been sleeping, who have
29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: has high anxiety and depression scores has been isolating, not gaging and meaningful social activity.
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: All of these pieces and then imagine them going to a weekly outpatient to work on this stuff while they're existing in that same environment and getting getting a prescription, which I'm totally fine with on some level.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But now imagine that same person, they come out here and they detox from screens.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: They detox from substances.
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: They get fresh air, they get to walk through nature, sit around a campfire.
29:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It is intuitive that we're gonna see healing.
29:40
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact,
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the studies that I'm really excited about right now that we're doing is we're and I'm a novice, but it's functional medicine.
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's cellular biology.
29:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We've watched these clients, the color come back into their eyes and their face, we see them heal.
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've been studying it from an emotional behavior standpoint.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: but now we're actually going to look at it from a biological piece right is what happens to at the cellular level is these guys go through the program and that color comes back to their face because you you see it and parents for reports like oh this still is like a healthy person you know 90 days later 60 days later and so they're there yeah so it's if we just
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, these adolescents or people who are struggling, and we look at their lives.
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's obvious that little rights of passage experience is going to provide a likelihood of some positive outcomes.
30:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, at Legacy, we have two nurses on staff.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an MD and medication is sometimes a part of that process.
30:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think it should be the default.
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: because what we're seeing is it's not collectively, it's not working.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got to do something different.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And then something different in my mind is, we should be in that environment.
30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Plugging, yeah, and at the minimum, if I'm a private practice clinician, and this is something I travel across the country and we'll teach and present on.
31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be in New York on September 18th, doing we rent out a kayak shop and we take therapists out and we sort of engage in outside activity.
31:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of what I encourage clinicians to do is part of your daily practice is ask people how much time they're getting outside.
31:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And it might be a reason.
31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Two hours a week has been shown to have real positive outcomes.
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, sometimes just a little in-road to that and then some positive outcome can build on itself.
31:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm a private practice clinician and I'm taking clients, that's definitely something I'm going to be looking at and I'm going to be working to increase that time for the clients that I work with.
31:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so true that you say that a couple of things on that is like one is like, you know, of course, especially when I was working the adolescent clients, you know, families try to go the easier softer approach first where they're like, all right, well, they're just going to get on a medication.
31:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be diagnosed.
31:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll put them in a IOP or PHP, you know, and they'll stay in the same school.
31:58
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll be going back into their bedroom and having the same amount of screen time.
32:01
[SPEAKER_02]: and they're expecting all this change and that just doesn't happen.
32:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The other piece on that is I personally never went into a wilderness setting for treatment when I went to treatment as a young adult, but I will say this in my adult life, you know, any time I have gone for doing intensive work where I've gone away for a week or a few days.
32:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It is amazing to me how much actually gets done and achieved when somebody pulls my phone away for me and puts me in this kind of, I'm not in the wilderness, but I'm definitely on a farm with animals and I don't have my phone and I am amongst, you know, people that are not in my daily life and the change in.
32:42
[SPEAKER_02]: it's just it has such a profound effect on you.
32:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It really does and the work really gets done because you don't have any more of those distractions and any more of that stuff in your way and that's why I do call it summitable wilderness intervention, you know, you get back to basics, you know, I mean, I saw that.
33:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, go on.
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, and, and, and, and I mean, add to that, imagine being a person's struggling, right?
33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're struggling.
33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you go to therapy and you go in that process, you get a medication.
33:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you're like you said, you're still existing in that same environment, living the same way.
33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And those struggles continue in some way.
33:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That could be very, very discouraging and sometimes what happens in that process is people will develop this inner identity that I'm uniquely broken.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And that can be counterproductive sometimes.
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And so by providing somebody an opportunity for facilitated success, where it's, hey, we're gonna go in a cheap, and we're gonna do things, and we're gonna walk alongside you.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: When you get to the top of a mountain, then you get that reward, and you feel this, you've achieved something, because you've been a part of the planning and you're getting excited, and then you do it.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that sometimes you can see more movement,
33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: through getting someone to walk alongside you up a mountain to see the view.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, certainly a weekly session where they're going back and struggling with the same things.
34:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that can be counterproductive.
34:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I do think sometimes the interventions, particularly with the youth.
34:13
[SPEAKER_00]: we need to be more proactive around how do we engage them in activities it's going to get those results as opposed to solely focusing on identifying their unique problem because that gets internalized and I think that you know our westernized models are a little bit obsessed with with diagnosis assessment and medication and a little less focused on how do we facilitate
34:43
[SPEAKER_00]: People would grow and they would they would be exposed to these real world scenarios and they would build character and they'd build strength.
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We're protecting kids maybe too much from being able to have character building resiliency building experiences and so, you know, I don't think there's anything that
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: can be more profound for something to do than to go, go back, pack around, you know, go to camp, go, go with your family, you know, rather therapy, I think is a great option.
35:12
[SPEAKER_00]: If you really need to work on some stuff, but there's a lot of ways to tap into this wisdom, four kids who are struggling, that I don't think we talk about enough.
35:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Can we also briefly just touch on this because we talked about this before we started recording and this is something I also see families freak out about.
35:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And it did happen to a lot of kids in the past.
35:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Derek and I were talking about this kind of...
35:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do agree, I think it's this lazy option of transporting one's, you know, listen, when you have an adolescent, a young adult and adult, and I've worked with everybody, I've worked with pilots, I've worked with adults, I've worked with WWE wrestlers, I've worked with the gamut, and nine times at a ten, nobody including myself is willing and wanting to walk through that door, whether it's into wilderness treatment or into treatment.
36:05
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of what we would call the snatch and grab, which is these transports in the middle of the night would come and pick up a child, wake them up at 3 a.m. and grab them and take them into a wilderness setting or an adolescent treatment setting, which can be kind of traumatizing, if not very traumatizing.
36:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I am not a huge advocate of that type of intervention, you know, I, you know, I, you know, I screen.
36:27
[SPEAKER_02]: all of my transports and interventionists that I use, they have to be super licensed, they have to be able to be equipped to handle anything and everything.
36:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just find this kind of coming in the middle of the night, pulling someone out of their bed, not only not appropriate, but just really, it is, it's traumatic.
36:45
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think, and I just want to stress on this, and we can talk on this for a minute, because
36:49
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't the norm guys, this isn't what everybody does to intervene on an adolescent and young adults.
36:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I and the 20 years that I've been working with adolescent young adults have never had to go that route.
37:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just, I wanted to get your thoughts on that.
37:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know some parents will not feel immediately in this happened just this week when we were trying to refer this young woman to junior per Canyon.
37:11
[SPEAKER_02]: This mom was like, I'm not doing this.
37:13
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to kidnap my kid in the middle of the night and do that it up.
37:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And so what do you say to that?
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I think it's an important conversation.
37:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think similar to wilderness therapy transport sort of got that like catch all right, and I think that the true the actual and that's what did happen to Paris and I and I understand that is part of the story that was a very true part of her story and that does happen still so.
37:35
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure.
37:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think the term sort of got flattened into catching what you're describing there.
37:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I think similarly to you, you know, I've been answering phone calls and help in families for for for 20 years.
37:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, you know, a couple of things that would point out is that if I'm looking at using those services, because I haven't had a lesson in real distress, and this happens.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And then first, first and foremost, work with a license and accredited, do
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: service who provide safe passage or adolescent intervention, that you know are not going to be using those tactics and are not going to be using deceit and because adolescent intervention, I think is really appropriate.
38:12
[SPEAKER_00]: The other piece that I would add to it that I, you know,
38:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I just see it and I because I get these calls and I've had to help family members that I think gets overlooked is we often think about like transport that that person you're talking about we got an adolescent who's maybe getting a little bit of trouble and parents just don't want to deal with it so they call transports to come in the middle of the night.
38:34
[SPEAKER_00]: that shouldn't happen.
38:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the field in large part and the transportation type services, I don't see that practices.
38:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It may still exist.
38:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's maybe some transporters out there still operating that.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It does exist.
38:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know if I should just...
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's where, you know, similarly, transporters should should be, and I see them advocating to try to raise the bar, so that that can practice no longer exists.
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The flip side of that that I think is important is, you know, and these are real stories that happen.
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one that happened for me a month ago was a family member and they called me and distress and they had a family member who was an adolescent who was running down the street taking his clothes off right in having a real psychotic break.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It was scary.
39:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It was terrifying and they were faced with the decision.
39:24
[SPEAKER_00]: who do we call for support and I recommend that they call safe passage people to come and help provide some care because I think sometimes when you're dealing with the crisis like that the best thing you can do is call for support from people who are trained and who are not carrying guns.
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, because having police officers show up to these things is not a better alternative alternative and so and people would I think would make the case that that's the minority not from where I'm sitting from where I'm sitting the vast majority of these cases when we talk about them on an individual case it's it's people being put in the worst possible decisions where you've got the being trafficked abused right you know and and it's some of the stuff is
40:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, when somebody has psychosis, for example, and it's going down the road, the most compassionate thing we can do is certainly not do anything.
40:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe them, you know, I think that there's a portion of the population who is homeless or untreated, and I don't think that that's the more compassionate alternative.
40:30
[SPEAKER_00]: when somebody's on the edge and they're real risk, I think it's okay for families to draw boundary and intervene.
40:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I think the practices of like adult intervention should be the go to and there's no reason why we can't take those same approaches think we've had a lesson, you know, with adults at legacy it's great because everyone at legacy is choosing to be here.
40:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we might have some clients who come post intervention, but they're provided choice in that process.
40:58
[SPEAKER_00]: always right and before they arrive they get on a phone call with me and I answer every question right and you know and if they show up in their here for a week and a half and they decide this is not for them they're an adult you know we're going to do our best to work with them and say hey we know but it's their choice and so we might have someone who comes for a week and says this isn't for me with adolescents it's a little more nuanced and I understand that.
41:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But I will say, and I'll throw a name in there because just I've interviewed her before and she will be coming back on and she is kind of my go to for when we talk about licensure and just are being licensed and credentialed, you know, I were working with Heather Hayes for years and you know her transports and her team are just super licensed and super credentialed and I think, you know, why to me.
41:44
[SPEAKER_02]: a true intervention of sorts is about working with the family.
41:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes up until a month or two prior than this individual going into treatment.
41:53
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, was I willing to go to treatment?
41:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Did I want to go to treatment?
41:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Did I not kick my dad's car when I was being dropped off as a young adult into treatment?
42:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I did have a choice, you know, but my mother prior to me going in was being guided.
42:10
[SPEAKER_02]: by those credentialed people saying, listen, you know, as long as we get you, the messaging from you set up and sorted and working with you and understanding that, you know, Hannah's gonna kick and scream, Hannah's not gonna maybe wanna go in, but maybe, you know, from a loving place and it's not about tough love, but it's loving differently.
42:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Where my mother said, I love you, you know, you don't have to stay.
42:34
[SPEAKER_02]: You're an adult, you can walk out tomorrow, but I'm gonna tell you right now.
42:38
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not paying for your apartment anymore.
42:41
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not kind of, we're cutting up your credit cards.
42:43
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not making it so cushy for you to have an out.
42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, for me to save my life, you know, and I think, and again, I dealt with this again recently, just with a family who were like, I don't want to lie to my kids, so I'm going to tell them about the intervention before the intervention happens.
42:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, and we're going to have this coach that we have found.
43:02
[SPEAKER_02]: who has no credentials and no license, anything to kind of guide us in forming our kit about what the next steps are, it can just actually just screw everything up.
43:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And it really do more damage than anything.
43:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I'm not, we don't look at an intervention as we're lying to anybody.
43:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more about this family intervention, which it is to work with a family,
43:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we have done the research, we've done our due diligence.
43:32
[SPEAKER_02]: These are the two or three of the great programs that we've chosen.
43:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you can call them and pick one that you're comfortable with, but we're going to be going with one of them.
43:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I think where the, for the snatch and grab, as we call it, or this kind of transport in the middle of the night got really lazy, is parents didn't have to do anything.
43:50
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't have to lift the finger.
43:51
[SPEAKER_02]: They were just like, all right, you're just going to come in.
43:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't even have to be at the house when they're there.
43:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll just grab them.
43:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be on vacation and you'll bring them.
43:59
[SPEAKER_02]: that defeats the purpose because as I always say it's easy to maybe get somebody through the the door in the first 24 hours, the real work is to keep them there and to keep them there a lot of times we have to be working with the families, ahead of time with messaging and you know how to everyone needs to be on the same team, you know, that you're parting words like if there's one thing you want that caller to hear.
44:23
[SPEAKER_02]: about the work you do or about this process, to walk away with, what would it be?
44:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what would be the one thing that you would just hope families would be hearing as they get off the phone for me with you?
44:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what I would share is that I've watched people transform and get to healthy places for years and years and years.
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And so no matter how difficult the story that I hear, I work from a belief in a place that like we can get to a healthier place.
44:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, depending on the individual circumstances, the road map to get there may look differently for individuals, if we've got somebody who's just in college and struggling a little bit and just needs some time, I can predict that we're gonna see some clinical outcomes and sharely short order.
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other thing that I would tell parents is that sometimes it's hard for the help and the support that they're offering to be appreciated in real time, and that's okay.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, sometimes it's difficult to be a parent or be a loved one to make hard decisions.
45:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, to go back to what we're just talking about.
45:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the one of the things that we should refrain from ever doing is judging people for making hard decisions.
45:39
[SPEAKER_00]: and for people trying to do the best they can to get help.
45:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that you said it, if we can work together better, I think the most fruitful parts of these conversations are the places where we get into the nitty gritty and maybe have different perspectives on how we get to a better level.
45:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's okay that we don't like everyone doesn't have to agree.
46:00
[SPEAKER_00]: across the board.
46:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think villainizing anyone in this process, where whether it be the parents or the clients or the youth or safe passage, interventionists, you know, the program people, that that's not going to help anyone get to a better place.
46:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not going to create better outcomes.
46:20
[SPEAKER_02]: No, and I think thank you for saying that I think, you know, every family I speak to on the phone, you know, they start with this kind of shame or guilt that they are a bad parent because of this is happening.
46:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And my outlook is
46:36
[SPEAKER_02]: and I said this before, I don't, you know, my mother who was the best mom in the world, you know, was not equipped for handling what I was going through, where I was slowly killing myself because of my mental health and because, you know, a lot of things going on in my life, she didn't know how to, you know, mom me through that, right?
46:55
[SPEAKER_02]: She had to,
46:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and I say this to families all the time, you know, once you find the right programs and the right professionals to really listen to those people, you know, you have hired them now, you are leaning on them.
47:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So please with all to respect like let them guide you.
47:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I think where parents do a disservice is when, you know, they have all this knowledge and they have all this information and they are hearing time and time again from these.
47:22
[SPEAKER_02]: experts, you know, on how to do this and they still choose to do it their way.
47:27
[SPEAKER_02]: We've touched on a lot of good things today.
47:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So I just, I wanted to thank you again, Derek, for coming on.
47:31
[SPEAKER_02]: In the show notes, you will see more of Derek's bio.
47:34
[SPEAKER_02]: You will also be able to see and touch these websites of the programs that Derek's working with.
47:40
[SPEAKER_02]: We will also have not-saps information, so you can see all the programs that have kind of been the golden standard of the work out there
47:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to say thank you again for being on the show.
47:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks.
47:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And thanks for hosting these conversations again.
47:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They're so important.
47:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I can encourage people, if you get a chance this week, go for a walk, go breathe some fresh air, go get some sunlight, and ponder some of these questions.
48:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the best that we can do is to gather information, create context, and make the most informed decisions
48:20
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, thanks again, and this is another episode of Connect Call.
48:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next week.
48:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Connect Call.
48:27
[SPEAKER_01]: As we conclude, remember that insights shared are intended for information on educational purposes only, and should not substitute professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
48:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We strongly recommend consulting a qualified medical health professional or health care provider for personalized advice tailored to your unique needs.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Your mental health journey is important and having the right support is essential.
48:50
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're experiencing a mental health crisis or require immediate assistance, please reach out to a mental health provider or emergency services in your area.
48:59
[SPEAKER_01]: We're grateful to have you as part of our community and your well-being remains our priority.
49:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So follow us on social media to stay connected and be sure to catch one of our episodes on our YouTube channel.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We're here to support you every step of the way.