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Jennifer with Coffee-Episode 18-Book Whisperer Savannah Gilbo talks Burnout & Going Big · Jennifer with Coffee

• 0:00
  [music]
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  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Jennifer with Coffee, a mindset podcast for people who are looking for real change.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jennifer Lauer, writer, yogi, and fitness fanatic.
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  SPEAKER_01: Lately, I've been having lots of coffee meetups, long,
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  SPEAKER_01: honest conversations that delve into mindset,
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  SPEAKER_01: identity, choices, and habits that shape our lives.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I kept thinking how I wanted to share these conversations.
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  SPEAKER_01: So here we are.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode moves in three beats.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: An inspirational story, an interview with thinkers, builders, athletes, and artists.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: People who want to share their own transformations.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll end with a brief meditation to practice calming the nervous system.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you've been connecting with the stories and conversations here,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've also written some fiction that explore emotional spaces.
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  SPEAKER_01: One is an AI dystopia, and the others are part of a paranormal mystery series.
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  SPEAKER_01: So if you're ever curious, you can find them on my website, jenniferlauer.com.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today's inspo is another fun fact I learned about dogs.
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  SPEAKER_01: This one is really interesting that they even did this study,
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  SPEAKER_01: but there was a PubMed study that dogs are sensitive to small variations in
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  SPEAKER_01: the Earth's magnetic field.
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  SPEAKER_01: What this says really is just that they are super aware of what's going on,
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  SPEAKER_01: but the way that they tested them was when a dog does their business,
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  SPEAKER_01: the reason why they're searching around for the perfect spot is Is
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  SPEAKER_01: because they align themselves with a north-south axis of the Earth's magnetic field.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they also prefer to go when the magnetic field is calm.
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  SPEAKER_01: The magnetic field is meaningful to all of us.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you know me, I listen to it all of the time.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I'm a big fan of listening to Schumann's Resonance.
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is essentially the sound of the Earth.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like the heartbeat of the Earth.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you can...
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  SPEAKER_01: I will put a link...
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  SPEAKER_01: I will talk more about sound therapy because it is very powerful.
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  SPEAKER_01: When I learned about Schumann's Resonance,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would try to use it when I would have a migraine headache and it did seem to help.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't a magical cure.
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  SPEAKER_01: It did seem to alleviate some of the pain.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I recommend giving a listen to Schumann's Resonance.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now I will be paying attention to the fact that dogs are sensitive to
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  SPEAKER_01: the Earth's magnetic field.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that they prefer the north-south axis instead of the east-west axis,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is very interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm still very curious as to why exactly scientists were studying this,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it was a magnet reception research on dogs.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very interesting set of studies.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can link the study as well in the show notes if you're curious.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's my little fun fact of the day.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hope you have a good one.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now for our interview.
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  SPEAKER_01: Savannah Gilbo is a developmental editor and book coach
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  SPEAKER_01: who helps fiction authors write, edit, and publish stories that work.
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  SPEAKER_01: She is also host of the top-ranked Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast,
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  SPEAKER_01: where she shares actionable tips and advice that you can put
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  SPEAKER_01: into practice right away.
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  SPEAKER_00: Learn more at savannahgilbo.com.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Jennifer with Coffee.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Savannah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Jennifer.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here with my coffee today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Savannah and Jennifer with coffee.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you tell us all about the work you do and what brought you to it?
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  SPEAKER_01: And just tell us a little bit about yourself.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was preparing for this yesterday and I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is going to be the longest answer of how I got here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Essentially,
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  SPEAKER_00: I help fiction authors take the ideas that are in their head and turn them
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  SPEAKER_00: into actual books.
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  SPEAKER_00: Technically, that means I'm a developmental editor.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm a book coach.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have an online course for writers.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like this is part of the work I was always meant to do,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it took me a long time to get here.
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  SPEAKER_00: I spent,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: about 15 years in the surf industry doing a completely different job and
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  SPEAKER_00: then burnt out there and was like, okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: if I have my one chance to kind of do what I want to do,
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  SPEAKER_00: what's that going to look like?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it involves stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of made a hard pivot and that's how I got here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I will say for everybody that Savannah was my magical book coach and editor
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  SPEAKER_01: and book whisperer.
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  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that you were burnt out.
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  SPEAKER_01: What do I wish I would have known sooner?
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  SPEAKER_00: And my answer is kind of, I'm going to answer both of these questions.
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  SPEAKER_00: So there were multiple companies I worked for in the surf industry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I started, my very first job was at a surf shop.
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even want a job,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the owner of the shop at the time knew my dad and she was kind of like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I need more girls on my staff.
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  SPEAKER_00: You have a daughter, does she want to come work?
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so like I literally, that was my first job.
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  SPEAKER_00: Grew up in the surf industry, like really loved it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then there was a time where I think in my gut,
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  SPEAKER_00: I knew this wasn't the career that I was meant to be in.
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  SPEAKER_00: However,
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  SPEAKER_00: like most of us,
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  SPEAKER_00: I doubled down because I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I've spent so much time doing this and I really do like it.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe I just need to try a different part of this industry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I ended up kind of going in a few different directions.
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  SPEAKER_00: That little voice inside of me exists So I started saving money because I was like, okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: I need to have some kind of backing.
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  SPEAKER_00: I started saving money.
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  SPEAKER_00: I got to the point where I had like six months of income stored.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like literally stopped spending for months and months and months,
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  SPEAKER_00: saved up six months of income.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: all right,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to give my two weeks notice and hope I can figure this out.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I did.
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  SPEAKER_00: StoryGrid.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be in Tennessee.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, do I want to go to Tennessee for this?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe it'll help me write my book because I want to publish a novel someday.
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  SPEAKER_00: Ended up quitting my job, flying to Tennessee, going to this training.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that was like, I just knew this is what I want to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I want to be around stories.
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  SPEAKER_00: I want to write my own.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of it, really.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's weird in hindsight.
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  SPEAKER_00: It happened so fast, but it was a long time coming, if that makes sense.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering, though, how did you come to get that email?
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  SPEAKER_01: Were you doing something with StoryGrid?
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  SPEAKER_01: Were you following their newsletter?
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  SPEAKER_00: I was just on a bunch of writing newsletters like a lot of us are when we're
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  SPEAKER_00: into something and we have a little hobby.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like you get on all the newsletters and that one just came to me and I'm also
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  SPEAKER_00: the person right now, I think I have 4,000 unread emails in my inbox.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: not only did it come,
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  SPEAKER_00: I opened it, I read it, I interacted with it and that got me to Tennessee.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was fate.
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  SPEAKER_00: I really do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it was fate.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I had to say, okay, this is like a totally different thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: I only have six months of income.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have to make it work.
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  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise I'm going,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm either going the opposite route where I'm going to go get a part-time job
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  SPEAKER_00: and just like figure it out and live on something I'm not really used to living on,
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  SPEAKER_00: or I'm going to go back to some other kind of corporate job.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't want either of those things to happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's just where, that's what I made happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's this job.
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  SPEAKER_01: You went all in.
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  SPEAKER_00: I went all in.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: has led to its own version of burnout from time to time,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I wouldn't change it for the world
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  SPEAKER_00: because I feel like now I'm Doing what I'm meant to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have the freedom I need, the creativity I need.
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  SPEAKER_00: I get to work with really awesome people like Ms. Jennifer.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's really fulfilling in a way that I like still sometimes I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm just so lucky I get to do this every day.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a great story because it shows us that when we take action
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  SPEAKER_01: the things we're aligned with, I mean, your entire career changed.
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  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like you got that email and...
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  SPEAKER_01: And you thought, oh, well, maybe at some point I would do this.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like you went to Tennessee.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a big leap.
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  SPEAKER_01: You took the big, bold action in order to change your life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not surprised you kind of were given this opportunity and
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  SPEAKER_01: then you grabbed it and you took action.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big believer too.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like you put what you want kind of out there in the universe and
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  SPEAKER_00: the universe gives you doorways and I think that like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I imagine this, but it's like you only have five doorways, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And they can be open or they can be closed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And because I stayed at that job for so long, all my doors were closed, you know?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe the doors represent different things in your life,
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  SPEAKER_00: like relationships or work or whatever, but all my doors were closed.
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  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as I put in my notice,
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  SPEAKER_00: I literally left,
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  SPEAKER_00: was still working my two weeks when I I feel like I had to let go of the one thing
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  SPEAKER_00: to be open to the other thing, which I know is a thing people say.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I was really, really into astrology at that time, too.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, you know, the universe is going to deliver what you need.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, because I can't keep doing this.
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  SPEAKER_00: So like, I got to trust something, you know, it worked out.
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  SPEAKER_01: It did.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now you have this really successful business.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about Notes to Novel and your business.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So essentially what I do is I have a podcast that I put out weekly.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's like one silo of my business.
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  SPEAKER_01: What's it called?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's called Fiction Writing Made Easy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I have a course that's called Notes to Novel.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I primarily work with people these days.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's like group coaching program.
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  SPEAKER_00: We go from idea to a very thorough outline.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: with the goal that the writer can take that and go finish their
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: So those are primarily like the two big silos.
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  SPEAKER_00: I also have a backend membership that's for graduates of Notes to Novel.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I do a bunch of like various random things like speak at summits and I create content.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wrote an analysis of the first Harry Potter book and just random things.
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  SPEAKER_00: Part of what I like about my job is I can kind of follow the fun,
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  SPEAKER_00: like whatever I'm feeling like doing,
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  SPEAKER_00: I can do because I work for myself, you know, which has pros and cons, of course.
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  SPEAKER_00: One thing I really like about it is I can follow wherever my curiosity goes.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to shout out your book on Harry Potter because it is such an essential book.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you're a writer and you want to learn structure in a really digestible,
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  SPEAKER_01: well-written way, Savannah's book is amazing.
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  SPEAKER_01: I will link it in the show notes.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was such a fun project for me and that was done through StoryGrid as my publisher.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I always think about like I got so much personal value studying a book that I love.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've loved Harry Potter my whole life.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm also the person that I love seeing patterns and I love taking things apart
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  SPEAKER_00: to figure out how they work so that I can like either put them back together
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  SPEAKER_00: or build something like it or whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: So personally, that project was very satisfying and very fun for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: In hindsight, sometimes I'm like, I never would have even gotten to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I would have been still kind of on the other side of the fence wondering,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, how does a book like this make me feel so many things?
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  SPEAKER_00: And how does it work if I had never taken that big leap back in the day?
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was super scary, but it equated to so many good things these days.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me what happened when you got back?
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  SPEAKER_01: What was like the next step to getting you to this business that you now have?
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  SPEAKER_00: The next step,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm laughing a little because the next step was like reality hit of like,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay, I feel like I have the tools.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've never had my own online business before.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I literally had to do everything from the ground up.
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember being in Tennessee and I'm like,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
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  SPEAKER_00: I got to like make a website,
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  SPEAKER_00: figure out do I need to be incorporated or an LLC or like what do I need to do?
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was literally from the ground up.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I remember on the plane back,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was kind of like, okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: what business-wise,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: like what kind of money do I need to make to even sustain my life?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like my bare minimum for the first year.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: just having to figure out all these things from the smallest things to
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  SPEAKER_00: the biggest things of how you're going to make money to support yourself.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right when I got back, it was all that kind of stuff, which isn't the most fun.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'll say it's not the most fun stuff to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember during that point,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: like I would wake up and I would start working and then I would work all the way
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: until I was so tired I couldn't stay awake.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I got really close to burnout again.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, this is not going to work either.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way that I don't have to like kill myself to get what I want?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: You hear this in a lot of different areas in life that do less to,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I know Jennifer's going to be like,
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  SPEAKER_00: don't tell me this, do less things to have more of the result you want.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, or like focus on the 80-20.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that was literally all I did is just like focus on what's the biggest thing I can do.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with clients, then I built my course.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I had to say no to a lot of shiny objects,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: which was really hard,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: but I was so determined to not go back to a corporate job that
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: that was literally what kept me going.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds negative,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it was such a fuel under my butt of this is going to work
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: because I'm not going back there.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like you figured out something that a lot of people don't figure out
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  SPEAKER_01: until they're in the weeds with it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any tips for people who are in burnout?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like what were some things you did to help you recover from burnout?
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  SPEAKER_00: In hindsight,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned that I have to just follow the feeling like I got close
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: because now I can identify like what Are the warning signs that I'm headed
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  SPEAKER_00: towards burnout?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of them.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll get, I'll just be really tired physically.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'll start like forgetting things a little bit more than I typically would.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I won't feel as excited about things.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And once I see these little warning signs now,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, what's the last thing I want to do?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Rest.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's the thing I need to do?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Rest.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to avoid that, which of course you do.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think rest is a big one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Play is a big one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I will get on the floor with my dogs and we will do, I have three dogs.
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  SPEAKER_00: We'll do all kinds of little games or I'll groom them.
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  SPEAKER_00: I trim their little paw hairs or whatever just to get out of my head and get back into reality.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to need to spend more time resting and doing things like that
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: than you think you need.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's the only recipe for moving your body and stuff like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's the only recipe for burnout.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to force your way through burnout, unfortunately.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's probably exactly what the kind of people who get to burnout think.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to suffer through to get your success or to get where you want to go.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've also learned that with my menstrual cycle, that is like, because I'm a big pattern person.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So once I hear something about track your cycles and track your energy level,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do that because I want to see what the pattern says, you know?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I started doing that.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And once I realized that there is a real true pattern where Not only do I feel
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: a certain way physically,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: but there's one week during the month where I am so creative.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I will produce so many things,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: write emails,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'll write blog posts,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm scripting podcast episodes, I'm doing all these things that are creative.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also one week where it's like walking through molasses
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: and I can't get my brain to do hard things.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when I spend time in my inbox or just doing things that don't require
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of Creative or logical thought.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: And once I started tracking that and then I gave myself permission to follow
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: the flow, pun kind of intended, things just became easier too.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm not so hard on myself when I have that week
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: where it feels like I'm wading through molasses because I know it's going to come.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: All of the things that you're saying, I feel like are connected to self-awareness.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: You just really need to listen to yourself and whether it's physically
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: through your cycle or Whether it's through what lights you up,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: what gets you excited.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I loved also how you said that your tips for burnout were rest,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: which I think a lot of people hear and it is difficult to do that.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then play,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: which is the thing I think probably most people don't even consider
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: because play seems like something.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Indulgent.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: How dare I play right now when I could be making something,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: building something, producing something.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's very American for us to not play.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And how dare I rest too, right?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: How dare I take time for myself?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: How dare I do what I know my body and my needs?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, that's the only way you're going to get out of it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of you have to do all of the things that you are preventing yourself
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: from doing.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you do them, you have more energy to do the things you have to do.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you recover quicker.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's another thing I've noticed is like you can try to fight your way through it
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: and you might be in that state for two and a half weeks.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can just get on board with this is how I'm feeling and I need to take a break
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: or I need to play or move my body, whatever.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then two days later, you'll feel totally fine.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Why resist?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hard lesson learned, I'll say.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a testament to where you are now though, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like you were in this place where you're doing something that wasn't aligned and
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: then you chose to do the thing you are aligned.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: But like, of course, that's not just the end of the story.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, how do I make this work in my life?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I keep finding those things?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Your journey continues.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: You still have goals and ambition.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have any advice for somebody who is looking to follow their joy?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my favorite parts of your story is,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: You weren't even really sure what that was going to be yet.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you loved reading and books and writing.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: You were following writing newsletters.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I love that you just weren't even sure yet.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just get this email.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, let me follow this and see where it goes.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So what if somebody is kind of in that place where they feel like
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: where they are now is not aligned with their soul,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: but they really have no idea what is?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any advice for them?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, it's easier to talk about stuff in hindsight.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: In hindsight,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think at a time working in the surf industry and doing what I was doing,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think at one point that probably aligned with who I was.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I changed, you know, I grew up, I grew differently.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something I experienced is like there's a grief in walking away
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: from something like that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you hate what you're doing,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: then maybe there's not really a grief,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: but it could be a grief for like how much time you put into something.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I keep thinking of what made me finally take the leap and it was discomfort more
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: than it was, what am I going to do next?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I got to a point where I just realized,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: why don't I deserve to be happy and do something that makes me happy?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it just was like, I can't imagine going the rest of my life feeling this way.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was under 30 at the time,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: but imagine being that age and just being like, is this the rest of my life?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then realizing it's No, I don't want it to be.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to your gut on that because like I said earlier,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: I knew before I left for like a handful of years that this was not the place
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: for me anymore.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't listen to the gut right away.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I probably could have because there was times in that period where I switched roles
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: or I switched companies trying to find what would make the old outdated life kind
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: of work with the new version of Savannah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I would say like listen to your And I think that's what I want to do.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, an environment that I was really comfortable in.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's going to happen and that's a part of change.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then I also think there's practical things you can do.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: it was saving six months of money so that I knew I could pay my bills for
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: the next six months.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that took sacrifice of things that I wanted to do but couldn't do.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, you know what?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have to make this happen.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's practical levers you can pull to set yourself up for success.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think it's worth sitting with the opportunity because at this point it's
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: an opportunity, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know what you're letting go of.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've taken some practical steps to set yourself up for success.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sit with the questions.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love books.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love stories.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love being around creative people.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what that would equate to and I feel like the universe delivered something to me.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best advice.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you're in a situation, listen to yourself.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: When you know you're about to transition out of it,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: prepare as much as you can and then also like be open and listen to yourself again
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: on the other side of it.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny when you're saying that,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about how you were putting tokens into the universe
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: the entire time you were saving that money because you were saving up the six months
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: of extra money, giving credence to finding this thing at the end as proof that
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: My whole point of this podcast is I want people to see what it took.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we see the before and the after of someone's life or a transformation in their life.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have so many.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Before and after makes it seem like it was like a blink of an eye, an overnight change.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time, it's just these like small baby steps over an extended period of time.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And our culture rewards very quick clicking by.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you're seeing something that should unfold in a more natural time, I think.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say too,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: like to dig into that more,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: because I do think that's very true and Although I'm really proud and happy of
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: where I was and where I got to, there was messiness in the middle.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I had the six months of money saved and there were times where I looked
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: at my bank account and I'm like, we are below triple digits.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's not okay.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what was I going to do about that?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of late nights.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of early mornings.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: There was stress.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm someone who is prone to anxiety and depression.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew I had to be careful with that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of trial and error too.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is another thing that people don't see is they might look at
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: a business like mine or someone else's and they're like,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: oh, that must have been how it was right when you started.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just always been this way.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, it hasn't.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's been very messy.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's been very, there's been like 20 different versions of my website.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's been iterations of my course and how I talk about myself and the things I do
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: and all of it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: The one that you created and not someone else's mess.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: The adult version of me,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: the person that left the corporate job,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: she just was someone who is not meant to work for somebody else.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where that changed in the course of my life.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I grew into that person where I'm like,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't have a tolerance for my time being so managed and very interesting
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: in hindsight.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Since we're talking about in hindsight,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: is there something that you look back and you see an obstacle or something
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: that didn't go how you expected and you wish
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: that you could have done it differently?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know everything happens how it's supposed to,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: but is there something that like maybe we could learn from in your journey,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: how you approached an obstacle?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: But are you talking about like with my current business or like
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: You did talk about how it took you years to listen to that voice.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that could have happened or did something happen?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: We always say when we make a positive change in our life, I wish I'd done that sooner, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a common thing that a lot of people feel.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: You knew that you wanted to be somewhere else, but you hadn't taken the steps to get there.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you look back now,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: are you like, oh,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to fix this,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: or I needed to change this, or maybe there was something you could have changed?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really funny because I know the topic of everything is change, right?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the immediate answer that came up was I did spend,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: in hindsight, too long Trying to change things that I couldn't change.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what I would have changed.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Especially in corporate, you think, okay, if I just work hard, things will change.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: If I speak up when I'm uncomfortable, things will change.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe if I let us get through this hard season, things will change.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you're just kind of constantly waiting and thinking that that's the lever.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: That you're going to pull that makes things different.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: What I think took me too long to come to terms with was the fact that it's okay
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: that I don't belong here right now.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not bad.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like I've grown into a different person.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: The way things are here are constraining and not aligned with me,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: but I spent a lot of time trying to pull that lever and make things different there
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: without acknowledging that I had changed and grown and maybe wanted
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: to be somewhere else.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like the thing I would change or go back
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: and do differently is accepting that some things don't change and it's okay
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: if you do change.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: it's almost like you keep changing the decoration of your room when you just need
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: to move rooms.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of trying to fix this one up.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people think that the people you're going to interact with
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: in life have good intentions and everyone's trying their best.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's, I think for the most part that's true, but sometimes it's just not.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think you have to just realize people do show you true colors and
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this goes back to the gut feeling.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: if I would have listened to my gut sooner about a lot of these things,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what I would have done.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: What if I would have ended up in a totally different career?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, things happen on their own timeline.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't fail when I listen to my gut and I hadn't been doing that
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I kept what I call the misery of it.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if I had listened to my gut, I think it would have worked out no matter what.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: That is so wise.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I never fail when I listen to my gut.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It might be messy, but it always works out in some kind of way.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing too is I didn't know, I keep going back to this idea of grief.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have a thing with grief.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've had a lot of death in my life.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: You just don't realize, speaking of change and things, how grief can show up without death.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: You have to kind of grieve When you change something that big,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: like for me, it was the career I was in for my whole life.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: You have grief that comes with it, not only because that's who you were thinking you were.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you were working towards.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're spending all your time doing.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: The people that you work with for so many years become family and you like leave all that.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost the price of change or they say grief is the price of love.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's both.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, that it literally is the definition of change.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're like moving to something new, right?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing something different.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that means usually leaving something behind.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's really good and you feel good about it.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Other times it's mixed.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think for the most part,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: it's probably mixed that are sweet, but again, like wouldn't change it for anything.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about books and publishing?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to get your take on what is happening now,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: how you feel about the business right now,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: and just like what's a temperature check on the publishing industry?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny because I know that,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: can't remember, someone described this yesterday as like threads.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: can't remember who it was,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: but I saw someone describe threads as like the place everyone goes to freak out
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: or something.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just reading yesterday,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: like a bunch of people upset about AI and Like, I totally get that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a couple ways I want to talk about this.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: One is that the temperature is always hot and cold, I feel like, because there's something else.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's some other drama.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, it's the drama of AI.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Other than that, though, I'm like, I feel good.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: People are reading books.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're always going to read books.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Stories aren't going away, I think.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's fun to watch like how genres flex and I am not someone who's gonna like fall
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: into the like AI is here to steal our jobs because I you know people thought
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: that way about computers and things back in the day
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: and it just is what it is it's like we just need to figure out what does that mean
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: for our lives now that AI is here I'm the eternal optimist on
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: that stuff businesses are gonna go on people are gonna read books and I feel good.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting to watch the industry change.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's changed a lot even since I wrote my book.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: My first book came out in 2023, which feels like forever ago in publishing.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now there have just been so many changes.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it also feels exciting.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the future of storytelling is exciting.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, AI has a lot of things that are annoying, like the slop.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, I feel like there's always something to be up and on.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's a serious thing.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: We need parameters.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's one of the things about AI in general and actually a lot
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: of why I write about dystopia regarding AI and robots.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sci-fi is the only place we've ever discussed.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: The moral and ethical implications of artificial intelligence.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's now here in the real world.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to set those in law.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we need to...
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even in legislating the internet,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: they're still so far behind and everything's moving at this like escalated pace.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I am also very optimistic, even with all of the outcry about AI.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Stories being told is the most human thing that exists.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it will continue to go forward.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I will continue to be an avid reader of those stories myself and writer.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, things like AI or whatever the new thing is.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I look at those things like a challenge because I'm not going to be
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: the person that's complaining on threads about AI.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: I would rather get informed.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would rather do something about it if I feel super strongly about a topic.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the way that I am, I look at that stuff and I'm like, cool, it's here.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So like, what does that mean?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not going to sit in the discomfort.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: I want to rise to the challenge and I encourage authors to rise to
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: the challenge too, because we know there's going to be AI slop.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: There already is AI slop and AI books published and all that.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: okay, well, this is the new challenge to innovate and to bring your humanness to it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And like, what are we creators if not innovators?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Rise of the challenge, let's do it.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the same thing is true for business.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well said, well said.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you wanted to share with listeners about what's up next for you?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to say,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: this kind of just came up randomly,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: throughout all this change, what's the thing that has been there for me the most?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is stories.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: It is books.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is like my escape into fiction.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Even since I was young,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've had to deal with a lot of death and things maybe like young people shouldn't.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And every time Books have been there for me.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've been mentored by some of the greatest characters in fiction.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: That was really part of what got me through this big transition from one career to the next.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Being in the hobbies you like and being in these story worlds and doesn't that speak
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: to the power of stories so much?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: It can almost be like a backbone for you when you're going through hard times.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's cool.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Are you reading anything good lately?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a recommend for us?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am rereading the A Court of Thorns and Roses series because there's
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: a new book coming out in October.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm getting prepared for that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: As usual,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I have way too many books on my TBR list that I don't think I could ever get through
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: in a lifetime.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm open for recommendations.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Very relatable.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: The eternal TBR.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Savannah,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: if somebody is interested in working with you,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: where's the best place they can find you, your social handles, website?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: My website is savannahgilbo.com and I'm on Instagram, savannah.gilbo.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then my podcast is Fiction Writing Made Easy.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: We end each episode with this very important question.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Savannah, how do you take your coffee?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we are coffee nerds in my house.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: My current favorite brand of coffee is Verve Coffee.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: V-E-R-V-E. Love Verve.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I am just a cream, cream person.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or black coffee.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mind that.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I am not a sugar taker in my coffee.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're kind of twins in that way.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I like a cream or milk or any sort of, I love like cold brew with like a cold foam.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: But no.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cold foam.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite is pistachio whenever I can get that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, no extra sweetener.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I like that, that bitter, bitter coffee.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I like the coffee taste.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: I actually just heard my,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I read this last night that if you put a little bit of salt in your coffee grounds,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: it makes the flavor better.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I haven't tried it yet, but that's like my nerd project for tomorrow.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to try it out.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you try it, let us know how it goes.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: I will.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being on Jennifer with Coffee.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was great chatting with you.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be here.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Today's breaths are love breaths.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Letting love envelop your breath just makes you feel good.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with an inhale.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Inhale of the good feelings of love and hold it.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And exhale,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: slow, let out all of the air.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take a second inhale, feeling the air and the love reach into all the parts of you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And exhale, breathing out slowly.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: And this third breath, let's inhale into the heart.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Deep love.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And exhale slowly and purposefully.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: May you take this feeling of love throughout the rest of your day.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Jennifer with Coffee.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Follow us on Instagram at jenniferwithcoffee and on Substack.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a Kings of Content production.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Music by Oreo CC.