Latest / The Generalist World Pod / Fear of irrelevance can drive burnout

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Fear of irrelevance can drive burnout · The Generalist World Pod

• 0:00
  Hey, it's Millie, and welcome to the Generalist World Podcast. This is the podcast for people who have never fit into a box at work, and to be honest, we don't really want to.
• 0:09
  Every week, I chat with a new member of Generalist World, and I share their stories, their philosophies, their frameworks of how they are living their life and creating work that actually aligns with their generalist skill set.
• 0:22
  So if you are someone who has had a non-linear, squiggly career, this is the podcast for you. Ally, welcome to the Generalist World pod. Hi, Millie. I'm so pleased to be here. Yeah, I've got like... It's just awesome.
• 0:34
  [laughs] Okay, let's set the scene for people, because you have had a wonderfully squiggly, diverse career. Yes. Um, how do you explain, how do you explain what your career shape has been?
• 0:48
  [laughs] Just making it up- [laughs]... as I go along. And it's kind of, it's always really special for me to come back to Hackney, 'cause this is m- my first kind of proper job where I was getting paid a salary.
• 1:02
  It wasn't a kind of like, you know, some cash in an envelope at the end of the day- Yeah. [laughs]... when I was 13, which was like, what it was like in the '90s, was in Hackney.
• 1:11
  So when I first started off in the police, it was, it was here, but it was like 22 years ago. Wow. Um, so it's always lovely coming back and seeing how, you know, things have changed. It's r- super different.
• 1:21
  It's, it's a really special place. Okay, so- I love Hackney... let's, let's paint an arc for people. Yes. 22 years ago, you were, you were here. You were... So we could say we've come full circle. Yeah.
• 1:32
  You were here, and talk us through kind of what that, what that arc has looked like to where you are today. Yeah, so I think,
• 1:41
  and I've only just really sort of started to make sense of it myself, 'cause it was particularly, I was quite young when I had kids, so I was like 30.
• 1:50
  First bit of my career is like the first 10 years, like literally just having fun in London, earning money, doing interesting things, public serving. Mm-hmm. I was a police officer.
• 2:01
  I was a detective, mainly did domestic abuse investigation- Mm... something I'm still super passionate about. Was kind of getting promoted and stuff like that.
• 2:10
  But then kind of had kids when I was 30, so then the next 10 years, like 30 to 40,
• 2:17
  really was just trying to keep my hand in and doing the next thing that made sense at the time for everything else that kind of like managing.
• 2:29
  But then over that sort of 10-year period, like threads emerging of some of the things that actually I've always been interested in and I really love, things like technology, public service, team performance, and learning, and how teams learn and how they work, and that's kind of been a bit of a thread.
• 2:47
  So I've been, did like 12 years in the police, then I learned you could just change jobs.
• 2:54
  [laughs] And then I changed jobs like every two and a half years, and I worked in a legal tech startup, and then I worked in a, like a trade association in re- with retirement villages, which was amazing, and they were like, I still...
• 3:07
  Like, really lovely community. Then I ran a business, a business that I now co-own. Then I went into refugee resettlement, and then I became a swimming teacher, and then, yeah, like literally no rhyme or reason.
• 3:23
  [laughs] And literally just trying to, particularly around having kids, just like, okay, what means, what's the next thing that I can do- Mm... that means that
• 3:32
  we can pay the bills, and I can manage pickups, and I can do this, and I'm not, you know, working 80 hours a week, and that kind of stuff. Yeah. So yeah, no plan or like [laughs]...
• 3:43
  But now at 45, it kind of looks like it might be, you know, there's a sense of- There's that, there's that great quote, and it's like, "You can only connect the dots looking backwards."
• 3:52
  And so like when you're in it, maybe it seems like there's no rhyme or reason. Yeah, yeah. But perhaps when you look back, like, um, I mean, you've mentioned some of the things you did.
• 4:01
  What were some of the underlying themes that have followed you through the last, say, 20 years? I think going into a team and then working out
• 4:13
  how that team is working together, what they might be missing, both or as people and as a team, you know, including like resources, or access to things, or support, or, you know, a better kind of
• 4:30
  way of thinking about themselves, or kind of like aspiration or things like that. And whatever sector, whether it was domestic abuse teams, or like events teams, or, you know, training teams, anything,
• 4:43
  digi- like, software development teams I've managed. Like, working out what that team needs- Mm-hmm... in that specific combination of people in their context, and then trying to find a way to make that happen.
• 4:56
  But over, and sometimes that might, you know, that's a two-year job or a six-month job or something like that. But like, that's what I've done throughout, and I, yeah. Yeah. That's a- I really love it... real thread.
• 5:07
  And has there ever been a time when you've been like tempted to specialize, to be like, "Actually, I'm gonna go deep in something"? No, and for such... And this is why I love Generalist World- [laughs]... so much.
• 5:19
  Because so for such the longest time, and this was like something that, you know, particularly like, I'm like the tail end of Gen X, and like, you know, early millennial stuff.
• 5:31
  Like, we were just told, "If you can't, you know, who are you? You know, you've got to have a specialism. You've got to kind of like do things and then become known for that particular thing." And I was like,
• 5:44
  "Yeah, I can do loads of different things." But, and that, that was part of the reason I left policing, because it was like, came out of uni, went straight into policing pretty much.
• 5:53
  Then it was like 12 years, and I was like, "This is all I've done, but there's a whole world out there." Mm. And I think-
• 6:01
  Particularly having kids when I was a bit younger and then being kind of like it's actually quite hard to travel with kids, and, you know, I know people do it. We had twins, so it was like- Wow...
• 6:11
  it was a bit of a mission, so we didn't really. But I found a way to travel and explore the world was through different roles, through different sectors- Mm... different teams. And so it was like I had this exploration.
• 6:21
  And a lot of those people I've kind of like carried with me or, like, stayed in touch.
• 6:26
  So I've got this kind of like really eclectic network of people that have got, like, super different roles that actually I've known for quite a long time now, but it's... Yeah, I re- I- it's really special.
• 6:36
  I feel super lucky. Hmm. It's also, like, for me, it's more interesting, right? It's like, because you then do, like- Yeah... who wouldn't wanna have, like, an eclectic network of people that you can call in? Yeah.
• 6:50
  Yeah, yeah, completely.
• 6:51
  And I think that's also one of the things that is just wonderful about Generalist world because there's people from all over the globe, people doing all kinds of different things, people at every different stage of their careers.
• 7:03
  Everybody's curious. Everybody's, like, open and willing to share and- Yeah... interested in things. And yeah, it's super special. It is. [laughs] Biased. [laughs] But I, I, I agree.
• 7:16
  Uh, how do you describe what- how you spend your days now to someone? So if you were to meet someone, you know, we're at Ramen Space, shout out Charlie.
• 7:24
  If you were to meet someone out there right now, and they're like, "Oh, you're Ellie, what do you get up to? How do you spend your work days?" I was thinking, I [laughs] was thinking about that before.
• 7:32
  So the call that I just had before I jumped on, so I work with a...
• 7:37
  Obviously, got a training company that I co-own, but then I'm also sort of like a fractional COO for an AI startup in, um, like, the criminal justice space.
• 7:48
  And so I just had a call with a really fascinating academic in forensic speech about pro- like- Whoa... collaborating.
• 7:54
  And then a call that I've got later is I did a facilitation with a charitable board last week about their strategic direction and where they wanna go, and I'm just having like a workshop call with their chair later on.
• 8:06
  And- Wow... but it's all, like, different things. I've got a, I do... I'm like a treasurer for one charity and one sports organization, so we're doing, I do kind of some of that stuff as well that I really love.
• 8:19
  Um, yeah, part of me sometimes is a bit like, it would be really nice if I just had a week that was like- [laughs]... just looked the same- Mm...
• 8:28
  and that I didn't have to kind of like think about what I was gonna do for that week.
• 8:32
  But then, um, and the, the community would be really lovely, but I broke my knee in February, and then every week did look the same, and I was like- [laughs] "I hate it." [laughs] It's not... Yeah, I was like, "Oh, God."
• 8:43
  Yeah. So
• 8:45
  you know, when you feel like you're sort of missing something, it'd be like, "Eh, something just a little bit predictable," then it's like, actually, no, there's a reason that I like things to be unpredictable and all that kind of stuff.
• 8:55
  Mm. Yeah, you broke your knee, and you also, you did a pretty crazy challenge recently, right? A swim. Yeah. Well, my long-term, like, long-term career aspirations is to be, like, a swim guide- Ooh...
• 9:09
  for kind of like long distance swims. So very long term, I'm trying to build my- Love that... CV of long swims, 'cause it's actually loads of people wanna do that now. It's really hard to get those gigs.
• 9:19
  Got to be a powerboat driver. You gotta be a beach lifeguard. Mm. You need to... So I'm a, I'm a swimming teacher, but, like, little kids. Absolutely adorable. Um,
• 9:29
  but yeah, I had a goal that I w- I'd signed up to this swim before I broke my knee, and it was really touch and go whether I'd be able to do it.
• 9:36
  So I came off my crutches for, like, 10 days, and then I just managed to get, like, the medical sign-off. 10 days? [laughs] Ellie.
• 9:44
  [laughs] Yeah, so it was 10, 10 days between them saying, "Yeah, you can try and walk again," and then it was amazing. It was, it's called, um, and a shout-out to the team, um, it's called the Defi de Monte Cristo. Mm.
• 9:56
  And it's the Monte Cristo Island off the coast of Marseille, and you kind of get a boat to the island, then you have to swim off the island, like escaping, like, the Count. And then you swim down the coast of Marseille.
• 10:07
  So we did, like, six kilometers. But I did it with my swimming mentor, who's this amazing woman, who, um, is, like, 70. I was, like, just about managing to keep up with her. [laughs] Wow. But yeah, she's incredible.
• 10:20
  I need to ask a question which I'm sure is on everyone's mind, and that is, like, how are you doing all this?
• 10:28
  You just said you have, like, three different, maybe four different roles, and roles not, y- you know, some might be as on the board. Plus you've got twins, plus you're doing these, like, massive swimming challenges.
• 10:40
  Do you feel really busy, or how are you [laughs] how are you balancing all this? Yeah, like, quite busy.
• 10:46
  But then also, um, and I think we, we talked about it in, in when I did it in the notes, like, my husband and I have always had, like, an approach where everything that we do is kind of like has got kind of equal weight or kind of like
• 11:03
  it like egal- genuinely lived egalitarianism- Mm... is, um, this phrase that this wonderful academic called Zoe Young
• 11:11
  puts when we were kind of like, I was her kind of lab rat when she was doing her PhD, and she was kind of a bit like, "How do you guys organize your life?
• 11:20
  And what, what is the impact on women on having kids, and what do, you know, career trajectories look?" and things like that. And we've...
• 11:28
  It helped, I think, with me and my husband that we were kind of like, A, he was in the police as well, and we were kind of like things were roughly equal.
• 11:35
  We're both earning, we're roughly about the same age, you know, earning roughly about the same amount of money.
• 11:41
  So it was very easy to kind of like set up our life together that started off on a really equal kind of footing. But we've just kind of like really actively tried to maintain that. And- Mm...
• 11:51
  there's been periods where, you know, he's kind of gone forward in his career for, like, a couple of years, then I will do that, and then it's like kind of like seesaw. But over- Mm...
• 11:59
  [laughs] a long period of time- Has stayed kind of equal. So- Mm. Yeah, so partnership, having support. You can't do all this alone. Yeah.
• 12:09
  And not picking up all of the load of all that emotional stuff that doesn't allow you to create space to do the cool stuff, like that you wanna do because you're always just holding everything else. Yeah.
• 12:21
  So I think that's super important. I love this for you. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. And when, so you are, you know, two decades into your career, and I wonder if you like- It's not two and a half. [laughs] Two and a half.
• 12:37
  Two and a- Yeah, yeah...
• 12:37
  and with that comes an immense amount of experience, knowledge, wisdom, and I'm curious how, at a high level, how do you see kind of your or careers in general, the world of work now verse when you started?
• 12:53
  How much has it shifted? So it's so different. I think that people of my age and generation potentially take some of the luck and, like, lucky context that we were handed and then potentially attribute that to- Mm...
• 13:10
  our talent or skill or hard work, and it's like I fundamentally believe that you... We just had it a lot easier. Mm. Things were very different. Like I remember when I got to university, I was like,
• 13:23
  "Well, I've got into a really good university. As long as I get a 2:1 and meet lots of people, I'm fine." Mm. Like, there was never a question about, "Oh, will I be able to get a job?" It was just- Sure...
• 13:35
  you know, and then we were super lucky that we were actually, like, established in careers before the 2008 crash, and then it's just, yeah, none of that, none of that timing, none of that location and thing was not, you know, not down to me.
• 13:50
  Mm. Uh, we were just lucky, like incredibly lucky. My f- university fees were £900 a year. Wow. And I got a loan, but I spent it traveling. [laughs] And then, and the interest rate was, like, really low. Wow.
• 14:04
  Whereas it's just so different. And I see such incredible creativity and drive and just such innovation in more young people do- you know, in the, in the community as well, and I'm just like, "Oh my God.
• 14:21
  I was barely functioning." [laughs] And like for, for ages- [laughs]... ages and ages and ages. Yeah, it was, you know.
• 14:30
  So, um, but then I was also one of those kind of like weird '90s kids that, like, had a sublet paper round when I was, like, 11. [laughs] So I've always worked.
• 14:41
  But then it was kind of I realized that one of my biggest fears was what if... and it's probably driven a bit of burnout o- over some of this, was like, what if, what if people stop giving me work to do?
• 14:52
  Like, what happens? Mm. And I was a bit like, "Well, that hasn't happened in 25 years, and maybe if that's my biggest fear, why don't I just step into that?" Oof.
• 15:02
  "And see what happens and not just go into the next job- Mm-hmm... but see what I can create." And I, I so I did that about two, two and a half years ago, and now that was actually the door that kind of let me think
• 15:17
  actually who, kids are a bit older. What do I want to do? What can I do? What are the things that only I can do- Mm... that are, like, you know, particularly useful?
• 15:29
  I'd always been driven by kind of thinking, "What am I doing that is making a better difference in the world or improving things?" But then also I, I'd,
• 15:40
  in a sort of slightly kind of like hair shirt type way, not really ever said to myself, "Well, what are the things that you don't wanna do?" Mm-hmm. "What are the things that actually you really enjoy?"
• 15:48
  Like, I love tinkering with technology, and it is such an interesting time to be involved in that kind of things, but I was... I didn't do...
• 15:59
  I did maths A level, but I was very much a where people were a bit like, "Oh, you're good at languages. You should do humanities." Mm-hmm. I was just as good at science.
• 16:06
  I was just as good, you know, but it was like, "All right. Yeah, no, you're really good at languages. Off you go." Yeah. "Do that," and I, like, very much went down. But now it's like you can just get stuck in.
• 16:17
  [laughs] And so I'm, like, building all these things and, like, trying them out, and then but not just holding it lightly, like s- some stuff's like a flop, or some stuff's like, "Oh, actually, that's pretty cool," or, "What, what can I build or what can I play with?"
• 16:29
  And yeah, it's, it's a really exciting time, and I do worry about peop- particularly some women the same age as me who because they're carrying this cognitive load of their household and- Mm...
• 16:44
  older parents and younger kids and all of that and a job that doesn't necessarily let them learn, that they're, you know, not able to spend that time tinkering- Yeah...
• 16:55
  or going, "Oh, what, what if I just plug that in with that? And what if I..." You know, there's some of the things that you've made in terms of like, what if I could just, let me just see. Tinker. Yeah. Right?
• 17:05
  And have the space to tinker. Yeah. I, I love that, uh, phrasing of, like, hold it lightly. It's kind of another way of saying, like, these tiny experiments. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. Uh- I love that...
• 17:15
  I also am such a fan of taking space to ask the question, what don't I want? Yeah. And I need constant reminders of that. Like, my husband and I are both yes people.
• 17:25
  We are like moth to a flame when it comes to, like, ideas and, like, getting things going. And our favorite question, a- ac- ac- no, that's not true.
• 17:33
  It's probably our least favorite question, but it's a necessary question, is why shouldn't we do this? Yeah. Like, why should we not do this? Yeah.
• 17:41
  And it's great 'cause it stops us in our tracks and goes, ah, there is always reasons why not, so l- Yeah... it's n- I have a bias to look for the- Yeah, yeah... yes and the possibility. Put another thing on.
• 17:51
  [laughs] Yeah. Uh, stoke that fire. Let's go. Um, so I wonder, so how old are your kids? They are 14 now. Okay. Yeah. And what are you advising them in how to- [laughs] Oh, that's really interesting.
• 18:06
  Like, this probably sounds quite bad, but I'm trying not to- Mm. Go on... 'cause I definitely, like- I've always had quite, like, an internal drive myself, so my parents didn't really, like, tell me to do anything.
• 18:18
  The only, the first time they ever told me to do something or not to do something was when I was joining the police, and they were like, "You don't have to do this." [laughs] Oh, really? Yeah. Interesting.
• 18:26
  But it wasn't about, like, safety or anything. They were, like, very left-leaning and they were like- Okay.
• 18:30
  [laughs] So they, they were, they, they approved when I started doing, like, domestic abuse investigation mainly. Um, my mom was a social worker.
• 18:38
  But I, what I hope for them is, like, it took me literally, like, two decades to work out who I was.
• 18:46
  Like, it's f- I'd much rather they didn't do particularly well on their exams, but they had a, such a strong sense of who they were. Mm. And I think that's where Generalist World is amazing because...
• 18:58
  And I'm just in awe of the people there in the community who are like, "No, I've actually spent some time thinking about who I am, what I can do, the difference I wanna make in the world, how I want my life to be." Mm.
• 19:11
  Whereas for ages, I was just like, "Get promoted," right? The, like, you know, tick the boxes. Mm. Do the next thing. Don't change jobs because, you know, people will think you're flighty. Don't have other, you know...
• 19:25
  And then I was just like, "Why?" Yes. And it's much better. So I, yeah. The only thing I hope for them is that they don't spend- Mm... 20 years trying to work out, and then going, "Oh, actually you can just do stuff."
• 19:35
  [laughs] You can just do things. Um, yeah, I think- And actually nobody cares. Yeah. And nobody's actually watching. Everyone's worried about their own little internal lives.
• 19:45
  Like, I think, you know, we, when, when the world is predictable, as much as it could be, and it is, you know, you can see the, the linear path, where it's- Yeah...
• 19:56
  predictable and it's fairly stable, which it sounds like it was more so the world, the world of work that you kind of grew up in, it makes total sense that specialization makes sense. Yeah. Right? It's like- 100%...
• 20:06
  it's predictable. There's less ambiguity, and it's like, uh, you, you do this, and this is the outcome. Yeah. You get this on your A-levels, that's gonna be the result.
• 20:16
  Where when the world is unpredictable, and when the world is in a state of ambiguity and, like, wonkiness, maybe we could describe it- Yeah... as that at the moment, that's where you have to be adaptable. Yeah.
• 20:29
  You have to be adaptable. And, um, yeah, I think that's where really where generalists are gonna thrive. Completely. Talk to me about [laughs]... I'm just gonna say two words. I'm gonna say two words.
• 20:43
  Hostage negotiation. [laughs] Yeah. I never, that's my big regret about leaving the police. Interesting. Is 'cause I was- Say more... so I was a detective inspector, and to be a hostage negotiator, you need to be a DI.
• 20:58
  And I went through all the selection, and it was a really, it was a really fun selection process. So it was, like, a live situation in a caravan on a, like, on a car park somewhere in north London. And- In a caravan?
• 21:13
  Yeah, yeah. Right, okay. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. And so somebody was there, and so they were like really... It was a, like, a scenario-based thing, but it was extremely realistic. Wow.
• 21:21
  And you didn't know anything beforehand. They were just like, "Go in that caravan." [laughs] What? And yeah, and then it was, like, basically talking to somebody and kind of...
• 21:30
  I was a family liaison officer as well, which is about working with families who have been affected by murder or manslaughter. Wow. So it was basically just then
• 21:37
  talking to the person and trying to, you know, normally it's, like, what if, um, you know, they're in crisis basically.
• 21:45
  But I was at this, at the point where they were like, "Yeah, you're on the course," and it's, like, a national course that, you know, people spend their entire careers, like, trying to do it. And then
• 21:56
  yeah, at the same time, I was working, I was doing disclosure for an, um, a massive public inquiry, and there was a tech firm that we were working with. Mm-hmm. And they were just... Like, one of the things that I...
• 22:09
  So I mainly, I'm still, like, policing adjacent, but more on the technology side of things. And one of the things that is a real, like, passion of mine is that public sector jobs should have really good tech. Mm.
• 22:21
  But they don't.
• 22:22
  And because those systems are kind of locked down, I was looking at what the, the, this, um, the startup firm that were, that were working with us, and I was just like, "Oh my God," they, they were on, like, Slack.
• 22:32
  This was, like, 2016. I was like, "What is this magic thing?" [laughs] And the computers are doing all these things. And my God, like, I, if I don't... Like, I don't know what any of this stuff is. Mm.
• 22:43
  And how am I gonna be employed when I'm 50, or be able to make a living when I'm 50, if I don't start learning some of this stuff? Mm. So I was like, "I think I need to just, I'm just gonna jump." And they were like...
• 22:53
  I was like, "Hey, do you want, do you wanna give me a job?" And they were like, "Yeah." [laughs] No way. So then I went, and I'm still in touch with them now, and they're lovely.
• 22:59
  And we, yeah, so w- then went and worked for them for, like, two, two and a half years. It was brilliant. Wow. But it was like, yeah, I was basically, like, shiny laptops.
• 23:08
  I was like, "They look like they're really fast." Yeah. [laughs] And, and, and you can find cool stuff and just put it on your machine and then start using it. And then- Wow... but so I never became a hostage negotiator.
• 23:20
  And, like, before they took you into this caravan in north London, what is the training, or how did they teach you how to negotiate? Or is it j- is that, is that the first step?
• 23:30
  No, this was just to see whether you had, like, the, the raw ingredients. [laughs] Had the it factor. But at that point, I'd already been a police officer for- Right... nine years or something.
• 23:41
  So yeah, that, you've got some experience of, like, turning up at stuff and dealing with what's in front of you. In what ways ha- wa- has being a police officer, uh, influenced, or how do you use it today, if, if at all?
• 23:54
  Are there skills that have followed through? One of the things that police officers are really, really good at doing is just, like, a real bias to action. Mm.
• 24:03
  And be- because you're just constantly, particularly as a response officer, which is w- I was when I was, um, like, first in Hackney,
• 24:10
  you're just constantly, you're being told to go somewhere, something bad is happening there. Somebody needs help. There's some problem.
• 24:16
  You start dealing with it, like, because you can't just stand and look at it for a while and go- Oh, maybe- Yeah [laughs]... somebody needs to stop this happening or do something. Um, and then
• 24:27
  one of the things that I've learnt in the sort of, like, 10 years since I've not been a police officer is that actually, you know,
• 24:33
  having a look at what's going on, you know, just getting stuck in and starting doing things straight away is not always a good idea. Mm.
• 24:40
  There's, you know, there's ways of, if you like, understanding more how people are feeling about things, maybe looking at what's going on a bit deeper- Mm... that kind of stuff.
• 24:48
  But, uh, uh, one of the things that I mainly take away from being a police officer is just, like, how much I love London- Mm... and- What do you love?...
• 24:55
  and the kind of like, the, the fabric of the city, and all the stories, and- Yeah... how the places all connect, and how they change over time, and yeah- Mm... I just love that stuff.
• 25:04
  And if you could go back and whisper in Ali's ear 10 years ago, so you've just left the police, and now you know all the stuff that you know now, and you're gonna go back and you're gonna whisper something in Ali's ear,
• 25:18
  what might it be? Interesting. Yeah, I think just c- carry on. [laughs] You're alright, you know. Just keep going. 'Cause it's hard.
• 25:28
  Like, they, and I know you, you've kind of talked about that sort of, you know, family type journey, but it's, um, you know, like, there, there are years I don't think I can actually remember- [laughs] Mm...
• 25:40
  of, like, we are doing the same thing. It's like, you know, right? Yeah. Get everybody up. Get them to school. Yeah [laughs] It's just like, you know, you're doing this- You're in it. Yeah.
• 25:50
  And you know, so I think that's also part of the reason where it's, like, it's lovely to be able to have kind of like different shaped weeks and- Mm...
• 25:57
  all different things on, because, you know, like, for a lot of the period it's just like, right, okay, you're being governed by the school terms- Yeah... times, this is that. Yeah. You know, those are all the jobs.
• 26:09
  That makes total sense. It's quite predictable. And is there anything that you really wish you had a chance to talk about while you've got the mic?
• 26:18
  Any message, idea, question, whatever it might be, while you've got people listening? Oh. I think there's a, there's, like, I'm fascinated by, I think your business model, and your business sense, and your way of,
• 26:35
  like, flipping the script on the membership model and stuff like that. I just find it fascinating.
• 26:39
  And- [laughs] Yeah, so not really, like me [laughs] But I'd love for you to- [laughs]
• 27:03
  Why, thank you. Um, yeah, when, at a high level, when I look back at making that shift, it's the greatest thing I've ever done for GW. And the big difference being, we are not a SAS- No...
• 27:19
  we are not an agency, we are a community. And I think the worst part, when I think of, like, pre-lifetime, when we were having this kind of annual membership,
• 27:31
  the worst part of my job is someone might be like, "Hey," you know, "I've just been laid off," "Hey, my husband's sick," and all my, "I don't have healthcare in the US," and, and I can't afford my membership.
• 27:43
  And I, there was this real tension where I'm like, it's when people needed us most- Yeah... that I would be like, and I, I couldn't do it. Uh, where I'd be like, "Oh, well, sorry, like, you're on your own."
• 27:56
  And I'm like, that's not, that for me- Yeah... that's not really what a community is. And, um, I think one of the biggest challenges of GW
• 28:03
  has been finding this balance of making something sustainable, because ultimately, if I don't do that, there is no community- Yeah... and everyone loses. It's out of business. Yeah.
• 28:11
  So I've always been very transparent that, okay, I want this to exist. I need this to exist in 10 years' time- Yeah... 15 years' time.
• 28:18
  It i- it is, when I meet people specifically in person, I realize how much of a lifeline it's become for people. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, w- we must find a way to make this exist.
• 28:27
  So to do that, we have to be able to pay our team, pay ourselves, live a decent life. And whilst also having the impact and- Yeah...
• 28:36
  uh, keeping things not growing too fast, 'cause if you grow too fast, you're gonna lose the culture- Yeah... what you have at the beginning. Uh, so that has been like walking a tightrope.
• 28:45
  Although I think finally, we're four years in, we've figured it out to a point- Yeah... where we're, we're profitable, w- we can relax, our head is above water, I can now start to invest back into- Yeah, the greenhouse.
• 28:56
  That is amazing...
• 28:56
  the greenhouse, for anyone that doesn't know, um, I'm now putting, uh, a percentage of our, um, revenue into, um, a greenhouse pot, and then we've actually just run our first one where people from the community can basically pitch and apply for this funding- Mm...
• 29:14
  and there's, like, no strings attached. It's just like, there's no equity or anything like that. It's just like, this is just a grant to do something, because I believe that generalists can change the world. Yeah.
• 29:22
  And let me give you a little bit of seed funding. The first one was 500 pounds per project- Yeah... and we funded- It's amazing... four projects. And even the projects, I was like, wow, s- so diverse in- Yeah...
• 29:36
  um, you know, we had someone in, um, Nancy in the US, who was creating this, like, vending machine of handmade, thoughtful art that people can just go and, like, instead of getting, like, you know, a chocolate bar- Yeah...
• 29:50
  they're going to get something that someone has made. Um, we've got- Beautiful... someone in South Africa who wants to make, um, local LLMs for rural schools. Yeah. Amazing. What? Even those two examples- Yeah...
• 30:03
  of the difference. And so I'm really excited about, we've kinda got GW to this beautiful point where head's above water, we're not in that survival mode where you're like, "I don't know if I'm gonna be able to pay rent."
• 30:16
  Like- Yeah... things are good. And now I can look to the next phase, which is like, okay, how do we make this even more collective and even more positive sum? Amazing. I just love it. I think it's fantastic. Thanks.
• 30:29
  Yeah. Amazing. Um, well, this has been an absolute delight. Oh, it's been great. It's fantastic. We will be adding all of your links into the show notes so that people can get in touch with you. And- Yeah.
• 30:41
  Thanks, Molly... really appreciate all your efforts, all your contributions. Yeah. No, I just, I, it's, it's awesome. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Ali.