Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / How Religion Shapes Love and Relationships | Alina Gufran on Love Matters

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How Religion Shapes Love and Relationships | Alina Gufran on Love Matters · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

0:00
Speaker 1: Who believes all this. That's crazy.
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Speaker 2: It's amazing how much resistance there is.
0:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, as you were saying, even in the most privileged
0:05
Speaker 3: circles to the idea that it makes me really sad,
0:08
Speaker 3: it does.
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Speaker 2: It does make me really sad too.
0:11
Speaker 1: So so like if you don't want to adopt it,
0:13
Speaker 1: that's fine.
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Speaker 4: Nobody asking you to go marry outside your faith or
0:16
Speaker 4: your class or cast. For me, personally, love has been
0:19
Speaker 4: a very private affair. Who I love, how I love them,
0:22
Speaker 4: Like nobody in my life should really get to have
0:24
Speaker 4: a say on how I choose to conduct my love life.
0:28
Speaker 2: Right, Alan, Welcome to Love Matters. I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and
0:37
Speaker 2: on the show today is writer and filmmaker Alena Gufran.
0:42
Speaker 2: Alena's novel No Place to Call My Own explores the
0:45
Speaker 2: way we can build and lose our sense of identity, connection, belonging,
0:50
Speaker 2: and today we're going to be talking about how religious
0:53
Speaker 2: identity can impact our intimate relationships. Alena, I'm so glad
0:57
Speaker 2: to have you on Love Matters. How are you doing today.
1:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm good. I'm excited to
1:03
Speaker 1: talk about the book and various things you just mentioned.
1:06
Speaker 2: I'm really excited too. Let's dive right in. I know
1:08
Speaker 2: that you grew up in an interfaith household. Your dad's Muslim,
1:13
Speaker 2: your mom's Hindu. That's right, Yeah, tell us what that
1:16
Speaker 2: was like.
1:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in a way, it was.
1:18
Speaker 4: I feel like a very iconic kind of love story
1:21
Speaker 4: between them, because they're from up and I think till date,
1:24
Speaker 4: there's definitely some shade around, you know, having an interfaith thing,
1:28
Speaker 4: especially if it's in the Muslim So I feel like
1:30
Speaker 4: it was a fairly Obviously the connection they had or
1:33
Speaker 4: what they felt for each other was strong enough for
1:35
Speaker 4: them to get married irrespective of like family.
1:38
Speaker 1: Backlash and such.
1:39
Speaker 4: But growing up inter faith was particularly interesting for me
1:42
Speaker 4: because both of them had some kind of an agreement
1:45
Speaker 4: that we wouldn't have very overtly religious symbols in the house,
1:49
Speaker 4: and everybody was just allowed to practice their faith how
1:51
Speaker 4: they wanted. So my dad's not an avid kind of namasko,
1:55
Speaker 4: but he would do it on Fridays or my mom
1:57
Speaker 4: wouldn't really go to temples, but once in a while
1:59
Speaker 4: she'd kind of do a little pooja at home. So
2:02
Speaker 4: at least as far as I remember like being in
2:04
Speaker 4: my early until my early teens. I don't ever remember
2:07
Speaker 4: being religion a bone of contention in my house. My
2:10
Speaker 4: memories are like full of us celebrating Eed and the
2:13
Speaker 4: Vali with equal fervor, and as a kid, like what.
2:16
Speaker 1: More can you ask for?
2:19
Speaker 4: I think there used to be these Yeah, it was
2:22
Speaker 4: just these funny incidents where sometimes I would like confuse
2:25
Speaker 4: the extended side of the family and like say Salaam
2:28
Speaker 4: to the Hindu side, and mind they must say to
2:30
Speaker 4: the Muslim side. But yeah, I mean I wasn't really
2:33
Speaker 4: thinking too much about it. I felt like I was
2:35
Speaker 4: exposed to quite a bit just by virtue of that.
2:38
Speaker 2: Did the families have a different set of expectations each
2:42
Speaker 2: side of the family or did everyone learn to say Salama?
2:45
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think everyone really got on board by the
2:47
Speaker 1: end of it.
2:48
Speaker 4: I think originally they were quite I wouldn't call either family.
2:51
Speaker 1: Conservative actually or orthodox, but they were quite.
2:54
Speaker 4: Set in their customs and their ways of life, down
2:56
Speaker 4: to the kind of food you eat, right, especially given
3:00
Speaker 4: the fact they're both from Lucknow, so they're from the
3:02
Speaker 4: same place, but the customs and everything is so different.
3:05
Speaker 4: But I think in a couple of years everyone kind
3:07
Speaker 4: of got on.
3:08
Speaker 1: Board and that was nice.
3:10
Speaker 2: And did you feel in affinity for one faith over
3:13
Speaker 2: the other or at different times different things.
3:15
Speaker 1: What was it like for you personally?
3:18
Speaker 4: I think because and this is very sort of simple reason,
3:21
Speaker 4: because I had more cousins on my dad's side, so
3:23
Speaker 4: more people my age, I felt a bit more of
3:26
Speaker 4: an affinity towards that, but I was closer to my
3:32
Speaker 4: maternal grandparents, so it really wasn't. Yeah, I mean, looking back,
3:36
Speaker 4: I think I've adopted customs from both sides and kind
3:39
Speaker 4: of like turned them into my own rituals now as
3:42
Speaker 4: an adult woman.
3:43
Speaker 2: So yeah, what are some of the rituals that you
3:45
Speaker 2: enjoy most from each side?
3:48
Speaker 4: So I would say, like food is a really big
3:50
Speaker 4: point of connection, and both the families used to take
3:53
Speaker 4: food really seriously and obviously different ingredients and such. So
3:56
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of like just home recipes
4:00
Speaker 4: I've tried to, you know, take with myself wherever I go.
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Speaker 4: From my dad's side, like these also connects to the
4:08
Speaker 4: whole like pop culture image of like lucknervy food, which
4:11
Speaker 4: is amazing.
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Speaker 1: From my mom's side, I think more than rituals, it's
4:16
Speaker 1: more like an outlook on the world because my Nani
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Speaker 1: was fairly well educated for the generation she came from.
4:23
Speaker 4: She was like a PhD in Sanskrit. And my yeah
4:26
Speaker 4: Ma Nanu was a high court judge. So I felt
4:28
Speaker 4: like for a fairly mini class conservative family, they had
4:32
Speaker 4: a very interesting outlook on the world. And gender, for example,
4:36
Speaker 4: was never like there was some kind of gender parity equality,
4:40
Speaker 4: And I think that's something that kind of inherent sense
4:43
Speaker 4: of feminism without having to call it feminism, is something
4:46
Speaker 4: I've imbibed from my mom's side.
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Speaker 2: That's so wonderful. It sounds like you had a secular
4:52
Speaker 2: upbringing to a very large extent there and yet also
4:56
Speaker 2: learned that no difference is that too big to bridge love. Yeah,
5:01
Speaker 2: I mean I think what beautiful lessons to have growing up. Right,
5:06
Speaker 2: If anyone watching happens to have grown up in an
5:08
Speaker 2: interfaith household or has an interfaith marriage of their on
5:11
Speaker 2: or just relationship, we'd love to hear your thoughts in
5:13
Speaker 2: the comments. But tell me a little bit more about
5:18
Speaker 2: you know, things like your name for example, Yeah, there's
5:21
Speaker 2: a lot in a name. Is someone called Liza who
5:24
Speaker 2: it's not Christian? People make assumptions based on your name,
5:27
Speaker 2: things like that, did your parents this sort of decide
5:32
Speaker 2: who how did they arrive with the name?
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Speaker 4: I think they were they just like the sound of it, really,
5:38
Speaker 4: I mean they were just I think, pretty caught up
5:41
Speaker 4: in like the celebration of being married and having a kid.
5:44
Speaker 1: I don't think they.
5:44
Speaker 4: Were thinking long term, thanks guys, but they like the
5:49
Speaker 4: sound of it, so we went with that. They like
5:51
Speaker 4: the meaning also.
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Speaker 1: I think back in the day this name was fairly neutral.
5:56
Speaker 4: It's an Arabic or it has a name with like
5:58
Speaker 4: German roots as well in Arabic roots as well. But
6:01
Speaker 4: I think now in the current climate, in the last
6:04
Speaker 4: I would say ten years or so, the name, especially
6:07
Speaker 4: the last name, has taken on a different connotation and
6:10
Speaker 4: baggage and a certain kind of recognition of identity. Some
6:16
Speaker 4: of it is real, it's playing out around us. Some
6:18
Speaker 4: of it is also like a kind of fear psychosis
6:21
Speaker 4: or a certain consciousness that may have crept inside me.
6:26
Speaker 1: So yeah, now the connotations quite different.
6:27
Speaker 4: But I don't remember it this being the case until
6:30
Speaker 4: I very actively started being a part of society like
6:34
Speaker 4: college or work or things like that as a kid.
6:38
Speaker 1: I don't think it.
6:39
Speaker 4: Played out in such an intense manner, but now when
6:42
Speaker 4: I look back, I am reminded that, like, for example,
6:45
Speaker 4: Mi Nanu had a pet name for me which was
6:49
Speaker 4: a bit more neutral and wouldn't immediately reveal one's identity,
6:53
Speaker 4: which now I look back, when I look back, I'm like, wait,
6:56
Speaker 4: was it so that maybe his group of people could
6:58
Speaker 4: feel a bit more at ease. It's all conjecture. There's
7:02
Speaker 4: no way to actually like know these answers now. But yeah,
7:07
Speaker 4: I think the name now has a different reckoning than
7:10
Speaker 4: it ever did before. But I don't think it's got
7:13
Speaker 4: anything to do with my family. I think it's got
7:15
Speaker 4: to do with what's happening outside. And that's sad because
7:18
Speaker 4: sometimes what's happening externally can leak into families in ways
7:25
Speaker 4: we don't even realize, especially with the advent of social
7:28
Speaker 4: media or just the news broadcast channels, and that can
7:32
Speaker 4: affect internal dynamics in a manner that is quite insidious.
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Speaker 2: So, yeah, for sure, often people perceive things that aren't
7:42
Speaker 2: even there because they're making assumptions exactly from their reference
7:47
Speaker 2: points and thrusting them upon you. And now you're like
7:50
Speaker 2: dealing with the stuff that other people have assumed. Yeah,
7:53
Speaker 2: I'd really like to get into that a bit further,
7:56
Speaker 2: and especially with regards to how impacts are choices we
7:59
Speaker 2: make in our own romantic relationships.
8:02
Speaker 1: But before we do that, we have a little activity
8:05
Speaker 1: where I'm.
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Speaker 2: Going to throw you some stereotypes about interfaith relationships. Okay,
8:13
Speaker 2: and you can tell me whether they're ridiculous or relatable.
8:15
Speaker 1: Okay, kind of quick.
8:18
Speaker 2: But if you have any thoughts, so I have to
8:20
Speaker 2: be instantaneous, right, I mean you can also like elaborate
8:23
Speaker 2: in a sentence or two.
8:24
Speaker 4: If you have thoughts, you can you can tell my
8:26
Speaker 4: first bench energy right now, or I'm just.
8:27
Speaker 2: Like, I'm going to get this right kiosk can and
8:30
Speaker 2: see no problem, okay, Okay, So interfaith couples can't understand
8:35
Speaker 2: each other's traditions.
8:37
Speaker 1: No, I don't think that's true at all. Yeah, I
8:40
Speaker 1: should expand.
8:40
Speaker 4: On it, or if you feel yeah, I mean that's
8:43
Speaker 4: ridiculous because I think it kind of just boils down
8:45
Speaker 4: to a certain Obviously there's a bigger learning curve. I mean,
8:48
Speaker 4: no one's saying that, but that's true if any two
8:51
Speaker 4: people interacting. I've seen my parents do it very successfully.
8:54
Speaker 4: My dad's been a bigger proponent of like holy and
8:57
Speaker 4: my mum has completely adopted the recipes, which again and
9:00
Speaker 4: food is a big part of connection in my family
9:02
Speaker 4: or even like eat in a way that's been very
9:05
Speaker 4: wholesome and just very beautiful for me to witness, And
9:08
Speaker 4: sometimes I think that if I ever have a child,
9:10
Speaker 4: it would be really amazing for them to witness as well.
9:13
Speaker 4: So no, I don't that's just lazy, being lazy in relationships.
9:16
Speaker 2: Agreed, absolutely, Okay, dating across religion is easier if you're
9:22
Speaker 2: privileged or urban.
9:25
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that either.
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Speaker 4: Actually, I actually think it gets a bit more complicated
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Speaker 4: the more privileged you are, because there is perhaps more
9:33
Speaker 4: of a standing slash prestige slash saving faith and society
9:39
Speaker 4: that we don't even realize we're doing because we want.
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Speaker 4: And this is not just true for religion, it would
9:44
Speaker 4: also be true for class and also cast because you
9:47
Speaker 4: might wear a certain liberal politics in your dial like
9:50
Speaker 4: sort of in the world, but you still expect the
9:54
Speaker 4: person you're dating to seamlessly fit in, and there seems
9:57
Speaker 4: to be more at stake.
9:58
Speaker 1: Or like more to lose. So I actually don't think.
10:01
Speaker 4: That's necessarily very true of course, in certain like working class,
10:06
Speaker 4: in the working class melieu or a milieu that's a
10:09
Speaker 4: bit more rural. It is harder, just by virtue of
10:12
Speaker 4: external circumstances and also the fact that women simply don't
10:15
Speaker 4: have that kind of agency and joys. But you hear
10:20
Speaker 4: enough stories of people running away and love marriages. I
10:23
Speaker 4: just think in the urban world it's a bit more
10:26
Speaker 4: dressed up, but it's very prevalent as well.
10:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, we pretend to be more open minded than they are.
10:33
Speaker 4: I think it's harder to put your you know, like
10:36
Speaker 4: money where your mouth is.
10:37
Speaker 1: I think some people do it.
10:38
Speaker 4: Of course that's true everywhere, but I do feel there's
10:42
Speaker 4: a certain kind of privilege to be maintained or even protected,
10:46
Speaker 4: and more people are capable of doing that.
10:50
Speaker 1: Than we really believe.
10:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you can't be truly secular if your.
10:57
Speaker 1: Ray is religious.
11:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:00
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true at all.
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Speaker 4: My parents try to inculcate various of their beliefs and traditions,
11:07
Speaker 4: and I learned all of it sort of reading the
11:09
Speaker 4: namas or no immigatyman, kind of like how you might
11:11
Speaker 4: learn different languages. But eventually I had enough space and
11:15
Speaker 4: freedom to form my own practices, and now my practices
11:19
Speaker 4: aren't particularly religious. They are more spiritual, I would say,
11:25
Speaker 4: and they don't really tie in with any specific religion. Similarly,
11:28
Speaker 4: I know lots of friends as well as my own
11:30
Speaker 4: partner they are practicing Muslims, but I would say their
11:34
Speaker 4: outlook or the way they approach people is extremely secular.
11:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
11:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, most stereotypes need to be dismantled, So
11:41
Speaker 2: thank you for schooling everybody. Interfaith relationships don't survive once
11:48
Speaker 2: families get involved.
11:50
Speaker 4: This is a chicky one, you know. Obviously depends on
11:53
Speaker 4: what kind of a family. I don't think there's a
11:55
Speaker 4: blanket sort of you know, statement sort of thing across
12:00
Speaker 4: the spectrum. I do think it can get complicated, and
12:04
Speaker 4: you know, marriage love isn't but marriage is still very
12:08
Speaker 4: much a societal proposition and where we come from, what
12:14
Speaker 4: position and society we inhabit. It does affect the idea
12:18
Speaker 4: of marriage and how our families approach it. I do
12:21
Speaker 4: think with a lot of conversation and a commitment to
12:26
Speaker 4: like watching your kid be happy, it could work.
12:31
Speaker 1: But it has the potential to get complicated. Yeah, I
12:34
Speaker 1: do think so.
12:36
Speaker 2: Okay, one partner always ends up giving up their faith.
12:40
Speaker 4: No, I don't think so I mean, if that's the
12:46
Speaker 4: basis or expectation, then maybe the two people themselves have
12:51
Speaker 4: some thinking to do. But that being said, some people
12:54
Speaker 4: willingly give it up and they adopt something else, and
12:56
Speaker 4: that's okay too. I just feel that, I think for me, actually,
13:00
Speaker 4: the issue is that historically, for me personally, love has
13:04
Speaker 4: been a very private affair who I love, how I
13:06
Speaker 4: love them, not just private, but also something laiden with
13:09
Speaker 4: total self agency, like nobody in my life should really
13:12
Speaker 4: get to have a say on how I choose to
13:15
Speaker 4: conduct my love life, right, And I think when it
13:18
Speaker 4: comes to sort of stereotypes like this, the assumption is
13:21
Speaker 4: that everyone gets to have a say in who I
13:23
Speaker 4: date and who I choose to love. And I think
13:25
Speaker 4: maybe that's a naive approach, but that is where the
13:28
Speaker 4: inherent problem starts. And I wouldn't even say it's just
13:32
Speaker 4: for women. For women, it's much more. But I think
13:35
Speaker 4: men are also subjugated to this often enough, especially in
13:39
Speaker 4: Indian society, which is yeah, and you're very much a
13:43
Speaker 4: cog and like the larger mechanics of family.
13:46
Speaker 2: Right. So yeah, last one, Yeah, festivals become battlegrounds in
13:51
Speaker 2: mixed faith homes.
13:54
Speaker 1: No who believes all this. That's crazy, but we're just
13:59
Speaker 1: like playing.
14:00
Speaker 2: But you know the type of person who is. So
14:03
Speaker 2: it's amazing how much resistance there is.
14:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, as you were saying, even the most privileged circles
14:07
Speaker 3: to the idea that it makes me really sad.
14:10
Speaker 1: It does.
14:11
Speaker 2: It does make me really sad too.
14:13
Speaker 4: It shows me actually more than anything else, just a
14:15
Speaker 4: lack of exposure, like I just felt. I just feel
14:17
Speaker 4: that the more you're exposed to something, it doesn't have
14:20
Speaker 4: to be a lived experience. You can also have a
14:22
Speaker 4: friend who comes from an interfaith home and just seeing
14:26
Speaker 4: it for yourself and just have an imagination.
14:29
Speaker 2: It's amazing to me how closed minded people are about
14:32
Speaker 2: the possibility or representation.
14:34
Speaker 4: And I think that's where the matter of representation comes in,
14:37
Speaker 4: whether it's a book or a film, if you're able
14:39
Speaker 4: to see and you know, we tend to display interfaith
14:44
Speaker 4: or religious minorities as always kind of like a sight
14:47
Speaker 4: of trauma. But if you just started foregrounding more of
14:50
Speaker 4: the banality of everyday life, like more of the joy,
14:54
Speaker 4: which is how which has been my lived experience. Of
14:57
Speaker 4: course there's been certain moments of trauma and whatnot, but
15:00
Speaker 4: that does not override the beauty of ordinary life, you know,
15:04
Speaker 4: which is as ordinary as a same faith.
15:07
Speaker 1: Household, whatever that means. But yeah, I really think that
15:10
Speaker 1: kind of exposure would just help people understand that it's
15:14
Speaker 1: it's not as much of an anomaly as people think
15:16
Speaker 1: it is. I agree.
15:18
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's so many instances actually if
15:19
Speaker 2: we just look around, like India, there is a diverse
15:22
Speaker 2: and wonderful live and let live country has the potential
15:26
Speaker 2: to be.
15:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like we're going it.
15:28
Speaker 2: Into you know, like stoking the stoking of fires that
15:32
Speaker 2: nobody needs to stoke.
15:33
Speaker 1: And I wish people were more aware of.
15:35
Speaker 2: The joy of just the wealth of diversity and you know,
15:41
Speaker 2: as you said, there's just more of everything.
15:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's also like if you don't want
15:47
Speaker 4: to adopt it, that's fine. Nobody asking you to go
15:49
Speaker 4: marry outside your faith or your class or cast. But
15:52
Speaker 4: this sort of feudalistic it's actually way I find a
15:55
Speaker 4: very feudalistic kind of ownership of what others are doing,
15:59
Speaker 4: especially if there's an age like older people that to me,
16:03
Speaker 4: I feel like it's time to retire that like.
16:05
Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty six.
16:06
Speaker 4: Practically you know, so, Yeah, but I think it's changing
16:10
Speaker 4: as well.
16:10
Speaker 1: I think a lot of I don't know.
16:12
Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like it's a bit of a
16:13
Speaker 4: double D sword. A lot of it has changed. But
16:16
Speaker 4: I feel the brazenness with which my parents could perhaps
16:20
Speaker 4: officiate their marriage in the nineties, which was against the
16:24
Speaker 4: backdrop of a lot of communal tension and you pay
16:26
Speaker 4: in fact, today, I don't know how many people would
16:31
Speaker 4: have the space to do that. Also, because I think
16:34
Speaker 4: in an odd way, we've progressed in many ways, but
16:37
Speaker 4: we're subjugated to a lot more scrutiny, in part because
16:41
Speaker 4: of social media than we were ever before. So it's
16:44
Speaker 4: a bit of a Yeah, you hard to say where
16:46
Speaker 4: the needle lands right now.
16:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, progress doesn't always seem millennear.
16:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
16:51
Speaker 2: Okay, this is love matters. So we're going to we're
16:55
Speaker 2: going to Yeah, we're going to bring it back. Let's
16:58
Speaker 2: talk about your love life. Yeah, well, how have you
17:01
Speaker 2: approached dating? Where do you like to meet people?
17:04
Speaker 1: Oh?
17:04
Speaker 4: My god, as we were just talking offline, I feel
17:07
Speaker 4: like writers are historically fairly difficult to date. I think
17:14
Speaker 4: my love life has been a very central focus of
17:17
Speaker 4: how I live my life. Purely because I derive so
17:19
Speaker 4: much energy from the people I meet, and dating, at
17:23
Speaker 4: least in the early stage, is what is it if
17:25
Speaker 4: not meeting more and more people. I have definitely had
17:29
Speaker 4: a history of dating artists like filmmakers or even novelists,
17:33
Speaker 4: because the intellectual connection or the creative connection becomes such
17:37
Speaker 4: a central part of how I live my daily life.
17:41
Speaker 4: But in the recent past, I've actually been dating a
17:43
Speaker 4: litigator for the last like two years, and that's been
17:48
Speaker 4: very interesting because I feel like, while he's rooted in
17:51
Speaker 4: complete reality, I'm in my imagination world every day. So
17:56
Speaker 4: the polarity creates for a really interesting dynamic and I'm
18:00
Speaker 4: really kind of enjoying that.
18:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, and have you ever been on the apps?
18:04
Speaker 1: I have? Of course I've been on the who hasn't
18:06
Speaker 1: you know?
18:07
Speaker 4: In fact, I was one of the early adopters of
18:09
Speaker 4: the apps, right because I'm thirty three, so the apps
18:12
Speaker 4: kind of came onto the scene when I might have
18:14
Speaker 4: been early twenties. Even I've met a lot of people. Initially,
18:21
Speaker 4: I mean, now I can say it, I don't really care.
18:23
Speaker 4: I used to use the apps to like troll.
18:25
Speaker 1: People a little bit. Tell me.
18:28
Speaker 4: Now, it's just like you're bored, right, You're bored, and
18:31
Speaker 4: you're not necessarily looking for a date, so you get chatting.
18:35
Speaker 4: And this is when the apps weren't so serious like now,
18:37
Speaker 4: I understand they're a very serious channel for people to
18:39
Speaker 4: meet and data.
18:40
Speaker 1: I mean, I met my partner on the app.
18:42
Speaker 4: As well, But back in the day, it was just
18:44
Speaker 4: I don't know what I was up to really, you know,
18:46
Speaker 4: trying to get a story of something, doing research. Yeah,
18:50
Speaker 4: I just I don't even know what I was up to.
18:52
Speaker 4: But I have met some fairly interesting people off the apps.
18:56
Speaker 4: I'm a big proponent of like just being on the
18:58
Speaker 4: app a little bit and kind of taking it offline
19:00
Speaker 4: really quickly. I don't really understand people who kind of
19:05
Speaker 4: I respect it, but if too much time is just
19:08
Speaker 4: spent in not meeting someone and kind of like texting
19:11
Speaker 4: them online, I feel like it does create perhaps a
19:14
Speaker 4: slightly false image of what someone might be like. So
19:18
Speaker 4: I really like just taking it offline pretty quickly, and
19:20
Speaker 4: I've been lucky that I've met some interesting people of
19:23
Speaker 4: the apps.
19:24
Speaker 2: I feel like the early days of the internet and
19:26
Speaker 2: even the dating apps, and in fact you remark that
19:28
Speaker 2: things have changed and how seriously they've become. But the
19:32
Speaker 2: vision seemed utopian of like, you know, here's this space
19:35
Speaker 2: where the prejudices of offline society are not supposed to
19:41
Speaker 2: creep in, et cetera. But then the apps quickly also
19:44
Speaker 2: managed to replicatively biases and look like the marriage market.
19:50
Speaker 2: What have your experiences been in that regard?
19:53
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to think.
19:58
Speaker 4: So, I mean, a, I've never really had my entire
20:00
Speaker 4: full name on there. It's I don't even use my
20:03
Speaker 4: entire name sometimes Now now I just sound shady, like.
20:05
Speaker 2: No, come on, I was on the apps.
20:08
Speaker 4: I prefer really getting to know someone before I start
20:11
Speaker 4: divulging like anything private about my life.
20:16
Speaker 1: I'm trying to.
20:16
Speaker 4: Think, in the early days of the apps, I've actually
20:19
Speaker 4: gotten really lucky and never found myself in any kind
20:21
Speaker 4: of a compromise scenario, and the topic of religion really
20:26
Speaker 4: hasn't come up.
20:28
Speaker 1: But then again, you know, in the first couple of days.
20:30
Speaker 4: How are you supposed to talk about, especially when you're
20:33
Speaker 4: in your early to mid twenties, I felt like the
20:35
Speaker 4: conversation was a lot more shallow.
20:37
Speaker 1: It was about grabbing a drink. Then, in my sort
20:40
Speaker 1: of when I seriously.
20:41
Speaker 4: Starting dating people, that was actually me just meeting people organically.
20:46
Speaker 4: So hard to say, but I will say though that
20:49
Speaker 4: like my friends, I have a lot of friends around
20:50
Speaker 4: the apps, and briefly.
20:52
Speaker 1: I was in the apps in the middle.
20:54
Speaker 4: I think now it's definitely become very structured. It's very
20:58
Speaker 4: like if you've said something, you have to stay to it.
21:01
Speaker 4: You know, what's your height, You can't really like lie
21:03
Speaker 4: about that. You have to have full body photos so
21:05
Speaker 4: that people can tell what you.
21:06
Speaker 1: Actually look like.
21:07
Speaker 4: There are all these markers around catfishing, so you can
21:10
Speaker 4: tell if you're being catfish.
21:12
Speaker 1: So it's just like a serious affair.
21:14
Speaker 4: Now it feels like, you know, dating should also, especially
21:16
Speaker 4: in the early days, be a bit light and happy
21:19
Speaker 4: and bring joy. You know, it should not be this.
21:21
Speaker 4: It feels like an interview almost. So for example, like
21:24
Speaker 4: I know someone who went on maybe forty first dates
21:28
Speaker 4: with very exciting but with the sole purpose of finding
21:32
Speaker 4: a husband, which.
21:34
Speaker 1: To me personally feels like a lot of pressure.
21:39
Speaker 4: And I think in the early early days there's merit
21:43
Speaker 4: in just kind of having the most fun you can,
21:46
Speaker 4: you know, and like seeking pockets of joy with the
21:49
Speaker 4: people you meet.
21:50
Speaker 1: I think that's really important to me.
21:52
Speaker 4: In my dating life, perhaps because like the daily reality
21:54
Speaker 4: of life can be quite taxing.
21:56
Speaker 1: In any case, I agree, I love that.
22:00
Speaker 2: Did you find yourself Yeah, perceiving people?
22:05
Speaker 4: Definitely? I mean definitely. I think I've been, especially in
22:08
Speaker 4: my twenties when I was a bit more definitely a
22:11
Speaker 4: bit more insane and just like not being a very
22:14
Speaker 4: nice person for a little bit there. But definitely I
22:18
Speaker 4: would be quite judgmental, like judgmenttal about maybe looks, and
22:23
Speaker 4: that's an obvious one, you know, maybe the way they
22:28
Speaker 4: have answered their proms, things like that. And also it
22:31
Speaker 4: does not help being a creative person because it's just
22:34
Speaker 4: a bit like I don't know about this, you know.
22:36
Speaker 4: But and I think this has been the big learning
22:40
Speaker 4: dating against my type, whatever that means. I think I
22:43
Speaker 4: certainly had a type has actually really worked in my favor.
22:46
Speaker 1: What was your type?
22:48
Speaker 4: Like artistic, intellectual, reads a lot of books. These are
22:52
Speaker 4: all good things, of course, but I would definitely not
22:56
Speaker 4: give people a chance if they didn't like tick. Some
22:58
Speaker 4: of these boxes definitely has a slightly brooding thing going
23:02
Speaker 4: about them, you know. And when I did, I've been
23:05
Speaker 4: very pleasantly surprised, And I think that's the polarity.
23:08
Speaker 1: I'm talking about.
23:09
Speaker 4: That if you actually date someone who isn't entirely exactly
23:13
Speaker 4: like you, it can be very exciting, challenging, but exciting.
23:17
Speaker 2: Did religious identity ever play a role in your selection
23:21
Speaker 2: of potential dates or partners?
23:23
Speaker 4: No, no, it didn't, but I know it did for
23:26
Speaker 4: other people. I do know, and I'm aware that maybe
23:29
Speaker 4: some Muslim men have swiped on me because of my
23:31
Speaker 4: religious identity, and I'm fine with that as long as
23:34
Speaker 4: there's no expectation for me.
23:36
Speaker 1: To perform my religious identity.
23:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, did in dating challenge any of the learnings you'd
23:43
Speaker 2: had from your parents' relationship? Were you ever disappointed?
23:48
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, definitely. I think I was in a very
23:50
Speaker 1: serious relationship with someone and sort of super interested in
23:55
Speaker 1: taking it forward.
23:56
Speaker 4: We're also young, we were kind of babies, so you know,
23:59
Speaker 4: you don't exactly know the exact shape of relationship for
24:01
Speaker 4: what the future looks like. But eventually it kind of
24:04
Speaker 4: like died on the hill of not from our community.
24:07
Speaker 4: I won't get into any details, and so that's always
24:09
Speaker 4: heartbreaking when that happens. We're on really good terms now
24:13
Speaker 4: that person and I, but this is one thing we
24:16
Speaker 4: just we don't address because there's no winning. I mean,
24:20
Speaker 4: he may not even subscribe to these ideas, but at
24:23
Speaker 4: some point chose to perhaps listen to his family. And
24:27
Speaker 4: that's fine too. Now that the anger the hurt has faded,
24:30
Speaker 4: I get it. I get the structural issues that compel
24:34
Speaker 4: people to.
24:34
Speaker 1: Make these decisions.
24:35
Speaker 2: And yeah, and with regards to your current partner, was
24:41
Speaker 2: religion something that factored into your thought process at all?
24:45
Speaker 1: Was it? No?
24:47
Speaker 4: In fact, anything, he used to remind me quite a
24:51
Speaker 4: bit of my dad, at least in terms of like
24:53
Speaker 4: mannerisms and such, or maybe certain figures of speech, which
24:56
Speaker 4: I thought was extremely attractive, but just as like a
24:59
Speaker 4: classic thing. I was also like, how Freudian would it
25:02
Speaker 4: be if I just dated someone like my dad?
25:04
Speaker 1: Like, I can't be that basic.
25:06
Speaker 2: But we are that basic? Come on, I am that basic.
25:12
Speaker 1: No, So it wasn't really a factor for me.
25:14
Speaker 4: Actually, I just yeah, I just saw him as like
25:16
Speaker 4: a whole person when I met him, and I was
25:19
Speaker 4: just excited by the possibility of who this person could be.
25:24
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I can't wait to hear more about this
25:27
Speaker 2: lucky man. Before we quizy some more on your relationship.
25:31
Speaker 2: Let's do another little game. It's called no overthinking.
25:33
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going.
25:35
Speaker 2: To just throw some sentences at you. It's kind of
25:37
Speaker 2: like fill in the blanks. You complete the sentence. Okay.
25:41
Speaker 2: The hardest part about dating is, oh my god, learning
25:48
Speaker 2: how to be with yourself. A stereotype about Muslim women
25:52
Speaker 2: that makes me roll my eyes.
25:54
Speaker 1: Is docile or demur Yeah. Well, I'm going to challenge that.
26:02
Speaker 2: I feel closest to my religious and cultural identity when.
26:07
Speaker 1: When I'm allowed to make my own choices.
26:10
Speaker 2: I love that when someone assumes my beliefs, I usually.
26:16
Speaker 1: Assumes my beliefs. I usually Unfortunately, I am a little dismissive.
26:22
Speaker 1: I should work on that. I'm just tired of that.
26:25
Speaker 1: You know, I'm allowed to be dismiss it.
26:29
Speaker 2: When it comes to choosing a partner, my biggest concern is, I.
26:36
Speaker 4: Mean, I want to say, a willingness to understand each other,
26:39
Speaker 4: although it's practically impossible to truly understand someone else, but
26:43
Speaker 4: more than that, somebody who has the capacity to work
26:46
Speaker 4: on themselves, because I think eventually that's what matters to
26:49
Speaker 4: me in a relationship.
26:52
Speaker 2: The moment i know I'm not interested in someone is,
26:57
Speaker 2: oh my.
26:57
Speaker 4: God, why is this taking me so long when I
27:00
Speaker 4: think they're not capable of true introspection and self reflection,
27:07
Speaker 4: that's a.
27:08
Speaker 1: Good deal breaker.
27:09
Speaker 2: Something my parents taught me that actually stack.
27:12
Speaker 4: Is these are relationships anything, Oh my god, so much.
27:19
Speaker 4: I think they are because of their own relationship. They
27:22
Speaker 4: did teach me by example as well as an actual
27:25
Speaker 4: dictat which is that they set that space and distance
27:29
Speaker 4: and yeah, space and distances actually can be equally romantic
27:35
Speaker 4: and erotic for relationship then e merging together. I don't
27:39
Speaker 4: think they use the word erotic for sure. Yeah, but
27:43
Speaker 4: they've always taught me that that like, be comfortable with
27:48
Speaker 4: distance between you and your partner, which I think really
27:51
Speaker 4: helps me.
27:52
Speaker 1: Your parents sound so cool.
27:55
Speaker 2: People are always surprised when they learned.
27:57
Speaker 1: That I that I'm actually just like so soft deep inside,
28:03
Speaker 1: just like mush. Yeah.
28:05
Speaker 2: Ah, so, Alena, People often make assumptions about who we
28:10
Speaker 2: are based on our name, or our appearance or all
28:14
Speaker 2: kinds of things, right, And I would imagine lots of
28:17
Speaker 2: people assume that you're a Muslim woman because you're Alena
28:21
Speaker 2: a Gufran, not realizing there's multiple aspects of your cultural Identityah,
28:26
Speaker 2: maybe not realizing how important your identity is an artist
28:29
Speaker 2: is how do you see Alena?
28:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I mean thanks for asking this question.
28:35
Speaker 4: I think it's a very important question actually, because, like
28:38
Speaker 4: I said before, I do think these categories are a
28:41
Speaker 4: bit more convenient or cater to other people and their
28:45
Speaker 4: sense of definition. It's an easy and a fairly lazy
28:49
Speaker 4: way to define. I do understand in the current climate
28:53
Speaker 4: why identifying with the minority community that I might belong
28:57
Speaker 4: to is important as well. But if I'm by myself
29:00
Speaker 4: in a room and no one's around, that is.
29:03
Speaker 1: Not how I see myself.
29:04
Speaker 4: It's not like I wake up and I'm looking in
29:06
Speaker 4: the mirror and performing muslimness, right. I think my identity
29:09
Speaker 4: as a woman, as I mentioned earlier, the shared kinship
29:12
Speaker 4: I have, like my relationships with women are a constant
29:16
Speaker 4: source of joy and support, is takes the forefront.
29:19
Speaker 1: And my identity as an artist or as a writer.
29:22
Speaker 1: I think, ever.
29:24
Speaker 4: Since I was a fairly young child, that that has
29:27
Speaker 4: been how I viewed myself actually, and that to me
29:30
Speaker 4: is quite genderless. Of course, when you put it to
29:33
Speaker 4: the mechanics of an industry, things start changing, right. But
29:37
Speaker 4: if you take the external gaze away, that is how
29:40
Speaker 4: I view myself and it's quite multifaceted. I don't think
29:43
Speaker 4: it's as simple as this or that.
29:46
Speaker 2: And when it comes to your parents' expectations of a partner, yeah,
29:52
Speaker 2: did identity politics plain to that at all? Do they
29:55
Speaker 2: have thoughts?
29:56
Speaker 1: Yeah?
29:56
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I'm an only child, so of
29:58
Speaker 4: course they have a lot of opinions. All the energies
30:00
Speaker 4: focused towards me quite a bit. I've never gotten any
30:04
Speaker 4: major directive about who to date in terms of like religion. Yeah,
30:10
Speaker 4: I think prime they might have had some expectations at
30:13
Speaker 4: some point of maybe dating somebody from their community, respective community.
30:17
Speaker 1: So I'm like, how am I supposed to fulfill this? Firstly?
30:19
Speaker 2: Mind one more faith person?
30:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, practically, but no, not really. It's not a big
30:27
Speaker 4: dictat in my home. And if anything, they've taught me
30:30
Speaker 4: to like really exercise my own choices, and I think
30:33
Speaker 4: that's worked in my favor. Sometimes to their detriment. They're like,
30:37
Speaker 4: maybe it's other. Okay, you know, but it's too late.
30:39
Speaker 2: Now, Okay, we're going to play another little game. Yeah,
30:42
Speaker 2: it's swipe left or swipe where I'm gonna throw some
30:45
Speaker 2: modern dating scenarios. Okay, at you and you tell me
30:49
Speaker 2: whether it's a match or whether.
30:50
Speaker 1: You would rather pass. Okay, okay. Someone who brings up
30:57
Speaker 1: religion on the first date.
31:00
Speaker 4: Time I would have swiped left. But obviously the context matters.
31:03
Speaker 4: How are they bringing it up? But today I might
31:05
Speaker 4: swipe right. I wouldn't just dismiss it off the bat like.
31:09
Speaker 1: Figure out what if they're trying to like glaze me
31:12
Speaker 1: or my religion.
31:12
Speaker 4: Yeah sure, but again then it would matter what the
31:15
Speaker 4: nature of the conversation is after that. If their approach
31:19
Speaker 4: to me changes significantly, then maybe that would be a
31:22
Speaker 4: slight cost for concern.
31:24
Speaker 2: Someone who hides your religion from their family. No, absolutely,
31:30
Speaker 2: you know, sorry, I have to ask these with a
31:31
Speaker 2: straight face. I'm just doing my job.
31:34
Speaker 4: Or hide any aspect of my being doesn't have to
31:36
Speaker 4: just be my religion. Let's say I've written a saucy
31:39
Speaker 4: piece for my substack. You know, maybe it's about sex.
31:41
Speaker 4: You'd be surprised how many people would have a bigger
31:43
Speaker 4: problem with that.
31:44
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not surprised that no one wants to me exactly.
31:49
Speaker 2: Take me home to your mama, tell her that I
31:51
Speaker 2: talk about sex on the internet and cellulose exactly.
31:54
Speaker 4: So I feel like that would be a bigger bone
31:56
Speaker 4: of contention than merely religion. But anybody who has to
32:00
Speaker 4: any aspect of their partner's identity is worrisome. At least
32:05
Speaker 4: begets a conversation, if not like a total buy.
32:08
Speaker 2: You know, I couldn't agree more. You're being very charitable.
32:12
Speaker 2: Someone who uses a secular, secular name on dating apps.
32:18
Speaker 4: Yeah sure, I mean sure all names are secular to
32:21
Speaker 4: me because I don't see religion. No, I'm joking, but yeah, sure,
32:24
Speaker 4: I don't have a problem with that. A lot of
32:26
Speaker 4: people I know sometimes drop their last names because whatever.
32:30
Speaker 4: Maybe they don't want to be identified by the heavy
32:32
Speaker 4: connotation it comes from, and I can respect that.
32:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:37
Speaker 1: Someone who posts a selfie with religious symbols in the
32:39
Speaker 1: background probably or no, Yeah, someone who jokes about faith, sure,
32:52
Speaker 1: bring it on. Yeah, we should joke about the most
32:54
Speaker 1: serious things, exactly exactly.
32:58
Speaker 2: Wanting to wear matching outfits on either Christmas, the valley
33:02
Speaker 2: or whatever else before you've defined the relationship.
33:06
Speaker 4: So upset like who has found themselves in this scenario?
33:09
Speaker 4: So I would match outfits because it's fun, like for
33:13
Speaker 4: weddings and such. And if that extends to a festival,
33:16
Speaker 4: then show. But I don't think it's born out of
33:19
Speaker 4: the desire to match purely for a festival.
33:22
Speaker 2: Okay, going with your date to a religious holiday just
33:26
Speaker 2: for the food.
33:28
Speaker 1: So it's interesting we were just talking about this.
33:30
Speaker 4: I mean, I have definitely visited my partner's home during
33:34
Speaker 4: eight but they do even a very specific manner. They're
33:36
Speaker 4: from lad Dakh and to me and for also him,
33:40
Speaker 4: it was just an exciting thing to be a part of.
33:42
Speaker 4: It was more to do with, like hay come experience,
33:45
Speaker 4: the way we live our lives, and it had very
33:47
Speaker 4: little to do with the religion itself. It was more
33:49
Speaker 4: the rituals, the kind of you know, preparing food, eating together.
33:54
Speaker 1: So yeah, why not?
33:55
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think food is such a beautiful and
33:58
Speaker 2: amazing thing to share. I don't eve think it's a
33:59
Speaker 2: bad reason to go to something for the exactly. I
34:02
Speaker 2: think it's a wonderful reason to come together, and it
34:06
Speaker 2: brings people together in a way nothing else can read.
34:08
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, especially because his parents and I have a
34:11
Speaker 4: slight language barrier. They speak in their local dialect. They're
34:15
Speaker 4: not extremely fluent with the languages that I know. Perhaps,
34:18
Speaker 4: so I feel like food then almost becomes a language,
34:20
Speaker 4: you know, to connect.
34:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
34:23
Speaker 2: So let's talk about your book, Alina before we wrap. Yeah,
34:26
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about it.
34:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean the book kind of charts a
34:31
Speaker 1: decade in this young.
34:32
Speaker 2: Let's show it to everybody and love the cover.
34:35
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. My best friend did it wow? Keeping
34:39
Speaker 1: it in the fam.
34:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, it kind of charts a decade in this young
34:43
Speaker 4: girl's life, who is obviously contending with a lot of
34:47
Speaker 4: things that people contend with in their twenties. So sex
34:50
Speaker 4: is a huge part of it, dating, finding the right
34:54
Speaker 4: person for you, being an artist, all of that, And
34:57
Speaker 4: I think as the story progresses, because of the current
35:00
Speaker 4: political climate, she also arrives upon a certain political consciousness.
35:04
Speaker 1: Whatever that might look like for her.
35:06
Speaker 4: It does not look like what somebody might think it should.
35:12
Speaker 4: It's her own understanding of it. And it's set against
35:16
Speaker 4: the disintegration of her parents inter faith.
35:19
Speaker 1: Marriage actually falling apart.
35:21
Speaker 4: So that creates an interesting point of tension and narrative,
35:25
Speaker 4: especially when set in the current political climate.
35:28
Speaker 1: So you got to check it out.
35:30
Speaker 2: No place to call my own. Are there any other
35:34
Speaker 2: books that you recommend as such an avid reader and
35:37
Speaker 2: a writer, Because we talked earlier about how representations, specially
35:40
Speaker 2: of things like minority identity. Am I not easing in
35:44
Speaker 2: the right word anyway? Muslim identity, Let's say interfaith marriage.
35:48
Speaker 2: It's so often focused on trauma and these, you know,
35:52
Speaker 2: stories that don't always give you the whole picture and
35:54
Speaker 2: also the joy that there is as well. I remember
35:58
Speaker 2: reading an article at home as you said, representation matters.
36:04
Speaker 2: Let's share some representations that people would benefit from.
36:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, at least in the South Asian sphere,
36:11
Speaker 4: I would say that there was a book that came
36:14
Speaker 4: out a couple of years ago of me though she's
36:17
Speaker 4: oh god, what was it? Called Burnt Sugar is what
36:19
Speaker 4: it's called, and it's not so much about minority identity
36:23
Speaker 4: or identity politics, but it's actually a very intimate, lived
36:27
Speaker 4: story about the relationship between a daughter and a mother.
36:30
Speaker 4: So I think the idea of being a woman and
36:32
Speaker 4: what it means, all the contradictions within it is central
36:35
Speaker 4: to that book, and I think it, at least in
36:37
Speaker 4: South Asia, it's one of the most beautifully rendered narratives
36:40
Speaker 4: of that. I think A recent book that came out
36:43
Speaker 4: is by Zara Chordhari called The Lucky Ones, which kind
36:45
Speaker 4: of chronicles. It's a memoir that chronicles her experience of
36:49
Speaker 4: growing up in Gujrat during the riots. So I think
36:53
Speaker 4: that's a very interesting one to pick up as well. Again,
36:56
Speaker 4: I feel like I don't end up picking up literally
37:00
Speaker 4: that necessarily four ground's identity. I pick up literature in
37:05
Speaker 4: a manner where I find the story compelling or I
37:07
Speaker 4: find the character compelling, and then identity just happens to
37:10
Speaker 4: be a part of it. So by virtue of that,
37:13
Speaker 4: I think this particular year, I've read these two books
37:18
Speaker 4: that have like, oh my god, so good. One is
37:20
Speaker 4: by this French author called Antser. It's called Leopard Skin Hat,
37:25
Speaker 4: not very well known, little obscure, but beautiful because the
37:29
Speaker 4: narrator is talking about his best friend who is suffering
37:33
Speaker 4: from a deeply profound kind of mental crisis, which is
37:37
Speaker 4: something I think we can all relate to, irrespective of
37:39
Speaker 4: our identity or gender. And I think it is one
37:42
Speaker 4: of the most beautiful books I've ever read. And the
37:45
Speaker 4: other one is called Perfection by an Italian, a queer
37:48
Speaker 4: Italian author called Vincenzo Count pronounce.
37:51
Speaker 1: His last name.
37:53
Speaker 4: And that's about what it means to be online today.
37:55
Speaker 4: It's about a young couple living their lives online. So
37:58
Speaker 4: again one of the most prevalent kind of narratives we
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Speaker 4: could read at the moment.
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Speaker 1: That is such a great list.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to try and get all of them. Thank you.
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Speaker 2: And actually, since we're getting your recommendations of any shows
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Speaker 2: or movies that you think people should take a look at.
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Speaker 4: Oh my god, this is so tough, given that this
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Speaker 4: is just like the diet I live on. Actually one
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Speaker 4: of the most beautiful shows I've ever seen too.
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Speaker 1: Actually, I just talked about two shows. One show was
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Speaker 1: Rami by the comedian Rami Yusuf.
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Speaker 4: Again, HBO did it a couple of years ago, and
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Speaker 4: for me, at least, that was the most accurate representation
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Speaker 4: of what it means to be a modern Muslim that
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Speaker 4: I've ever seen in my life, because the way he
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Speaker 4: contends with this relationship with sex, women, his faith, even
38:42
Speaker 4: porn for that matter, a very real rendition of what
38:46
Speaker 4: it means to be young and alive.
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Speaker 1: And I think another show is of course.
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Speaker 4: The classic Fleabag I just yeah, yeah, just what it
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Speaker 4: means to be a woman. And you know, yeah, so
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Speaker 4: much about desire there that I thought was really incisive
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Speaker 4: and true.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, Alena. You should definitely check out all of
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Speaker 2: our recommendations. I'm gonna for sure. It was so nice
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Speaker 2: to have you on the show.
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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Had the best time now.
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Speaker 2: I hope that you enjoyed this episode of Love Matters.
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Speaker 2: We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments. Please
39:14
Speaker 2: share this with anyone you think would resonate. If you
39:17
Speaker 2: want to write to us, you can do so at
39:19
Speaker 2: Lovematters at DW dot com. Lovematters is produced by the
39:23
Speaker 2: Indian Express and DW Germany's international broadcaster. I'm Lisa Mangoldas.
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Speaker 2: I'll see you next time.