Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Ghost: Melbourne's Hospitality Crime War | Seb Costello

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The Ghost: Melbourne's Hospitality Crime War | Seb Costello · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apploche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm
0:16
Speaker 1: your host Adam Shann. Melbourne is burning. A mystery cartel
0:21
Speaker 1: of crooks is laying siege to the city with a
0:23
Speaker 1: brazen campaign of arson, shootings and bashings.
0:27
Speaker 2: A Melbourne bar was firebombed in the early hours of
0:30
Speaker 2: the morning. Police are treating the incident as deliberate.
0:35
Speaker 1: As yet, the true motive for these crimes is unknown,
0:38
Speaker 1: but money and power usually covers it. Right now, the
0:41
Speaker 1: crooks are running a muck hiring young soldiers to do
0:44
Speaker 1: their dirty work for a few hundred bucks per job
0:47
Speaker 1: as they target pubs, clubs and restaurants.
0:50
Speaker 2: Victoria Police confirm more than twenty attacks on hospitality venues
0:55
Speaker 2: across Melbourne in the past six weeks.
0:58
Speaker 1: Recently, a note was sent to multiple bar owners which
1:01
Speaker 1: said Hello, if you got this message, where after you,
1:06
Speaker 1: your family, your businesses, homes and souls. We will take
1:11
Speaker 1: it by force. If you don't comply, the police can't
1:15
Speaker 1: help you. It's inevitable. We won't stop till we get
1:18
Speaker 1: what we want. Thank you, which is the nice touch.
1:21
Speaker 1: I think a bit of gratitude in crimes always nice.
1:24
Speaker 2: The threatening message traced to a WhatsApp number was sent
1:27
Speaker 2: to at least five Melbourne venue operators. The account, which
1:31
Speaker 2: identified itself as the Cartel, has since been deleted.
1:37
Speaker 1: What they actually want is yet unclear. Newsbreaker and worldshaker,
1:41
Speaker 1: said Costello of the Herald Son has been on the job.
1:44
Speaker 1: He's dropped in at very short notice to explain what's
1:46
Speaker 1: going on.
1:47
Speaker 3: Heyseeb Adam, pleasure to be here, and you've summed it
1:51
Speaker 3: up beautifully. There's a lot of damage that's been done
1:54
Speaker 3: here and for what we're not yet totally sure.
1:58
Speaker 1: How do we go from the world's most livable city
2:01
Speaker 1: to the most flammable in a very short time?
2:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, with a lot of accelerant I think you mention
2:05
Speaker 3: that there are teenagers carrying out these actual arson attacks
2:08
Speaker 3: on behalf of potentially a bigger organized crime network. These
2:12
Speaker 3: teenagers are almost not across what their mo is.
2:15
Speaker 4: I mean.
2:15
Speaker 3: I've seen some footage from Tuesday morning outside the Lardidhaba
2:19
Speaker 3: where an arsonist lit himself on fire. You can see
2:22
Speaker 3: that footage at Heraldsun dot com DoD au. And I
2:24
Speaker 3: also heard another story which just goes to how loose
2:27
Speaker 3: and how brazen this is, where another group targeting the
2:31
Speaker 3: bar Bambi operation in the city tried to do an
2:34
Speaker 3: arsen attack using diesel, and apparently you can't just light
2:38
Speaker 3: diesel without additional chemicals, maybe some kerosene or whatnot, so
2:42
Speaker 3: they actually failed in trying to damage that particular establishment
2:45
Speaker 3: on that occasion.
2:46
Speaker 1: Right, the Herald Sun and yourself at the forefront of
2:48
Speaker 1: the reporting is breaking the stories about these arsons. You're
2:52
Speaker 1: getting out a bit of old school journalism and knocking
2:55
Speaker 1: on doors talking to the proprietors. Is there a patently emerging.
2:58
Speaker 3: Well, definitely, arson is the number one crime we've seen
3:02
Speaker 3: of there's sort of more than twenty attacks that have
3:03
Speaker 3: occurred over the last five six weeks. It's mainly firebombings
3:07
Speaker 3: as we might call them. But what was really alarming
3:10
Speaker 3: was when the violence sort of spilled out of the
3:12
Speaker 3: venues and followed some of these hospitality figures home. So
3:17
Speaker 3: we broke a story earlier in the campaign where a promoter,
3:21
Speaker 3: guy called Paul sam Leidis, was walking to his car
3:24
Speaker 3: outside the home he shares with his brother and his
3:26
Speaker 3: parents in Templestow and he got bashed.
3:28
Speaker 4: He goes to hospital and.
3:29
Speaker 3: A few hours later, another car full of thugs, rolls
3:33
Speaker 3: up at the same property, kicks in the front door
3:35
Speaker 3: and bashes his sixty six year old father.
3:37
Speaker 4: He's got nothing to do with the nightclub industry.
3:40
Speaker 3: So such is this sort of lawlessness of this that
3:43
Speaker 3: people who aren't connected are being caught up in the crossfire.
3:45
Speaker 1: But you are talking to a lot of people. We
3:47
Speaker 1: make no allegations, of course, about the individuals here, but
3:50
Speaker 1: do you think you're getting the full story of the
3:53
Speaker 1: relationship between the victims and the perpetrators.
3:56
Speaker 3: Well, there's definitely links emerging, and you know, we don't
3:58
Speaker 3: allege that anyone's done anything wrong here. But one of
4:02
Speaker 3: the groups that seems to be tied to a number
4:04
Speaker 3: of the attacks is a g group at nightclub promoters
4:06
Speaker 3: that are known as the Levels Crew, and they promote
4:09
Speaker 3: nights at the Lardi dhar Bar, which was attacked in
4:11
Speaker 3: the early hours of Tuesday morning. They promote nights at
4:13
Speaker 3: the Albion, which has also been firebombs. The Albion's owner,
4:18
Speaker 3: manned by the name of Don Porter, who claims to
4:20
Speaker 3: be an ex British soldier. He was attacked at his
4:23
Speaker 3: home in Packingham and actually shot at while his children
4:25
Speaker 3: were in the house. He survived that, and as I mentioned,
4:27
Speaker 3: Paul sam Leaders of Templestow, was part of that Level's crew,
4:30
Speaker 3: so you can see this sort of lining up. I'm
4:32
Speaker 3: also told the Levels crew is sort of the biggest
4:35
Speaker 3: nightclub promoter for that kind of eighteen to twenty eight
4:37
Speaker 3: year old young people going out sort of market. Then
4:41
Speaker 3: there's another group of bar owners. They're called the Good
4:43
Speaker 3: Company Bar Group, and they have part ownership in the
4:47
Speaker 3: Emerson in southi Era, which has been attacked twice. There
4:50
Speaker 3: was a firebombing in the loading dock there and a
4:52
Speaker 3: drive by shooting. And they've also got the Electric Bar
4:55
Speaker 3: on Chapel Street which was ram rated just a few
4:57
Speaker 3: days ago. So it's a small group of owners who
5:00
Speaker 3: are being targeted here. One of the theories is that
5:03
Speaker 3: that's part of a sort of two pronged extortion and sting,
5:05
Speaker 3: that they're going after the bigger name promoters and the
5:08
Speaker 3: bigger name venues to make a statement to the entire industry.
5:12
Speaker 3: And so the theory goes, when they knock on the
5:14
Speaker 3: door of a smaller proprietor and point to the violence
5:17
Speaker 3: they've already carried out, they may hope that that smaller
5:20
Speaker 3: proprietor is more likely to pay the extortion demand or
5:23
Speaker 3: protection money. But no extortion demand has been made as
5:26
Speaker 3: far as we know. And that's the weird thing about this.
5:28
Speaker 3: As you mentioned in your introduction, violence standover usually comes
5:33
Speaker 3: with a financial demand. You know, there's a money trail,
5:36
Speaker 3: and so far, according to the industry, they haven't seen
5:40
Speaker 3: any demands made of them, except there are some bar
5:42
Speaker 3: owners who report having had some heavy looking vodka salesmen
5:48
Speaker 3: into their venue and try and push liquor from brands
5:52
Speaker 3: they haven't heard of, which led to the theory that perhaps,
5:55
Speaker 3: similar to excise free tobacco that was leading to a
5:59
Speaker 3: lot of violence in smoke shops, that maybe xis free,
6:02
Speaker 3: bootleg or elicit liquor could have been a factor in
6:05
Speaker 3: some of these attacks.
6:07
Speaker 1: Now, that message that were sent to pub owners and
6:10
Speaker 1: so forth seemed to have come from a WhatsApp number
6:14
Speaker 1: based in America, Tennessee to be specific. Is that giving
6:18
Speaker 1: any clues at all as to where this is coming from.
6:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that WhatsApp account was called the Cartel, so
6:24
Speaker 3: it would appear these crooks are calling themselves the cartel.
6:27
Speaker 3: The industry had actually nicknamed the violence the ghost because
6:31
Speaker 3: they said you can't catch a ghost, and they are
6:34
Speaker 3: unable to catch who's doing this the phone number. As
6:38
Speaker 3: I understand, it is possible to generate numbers from other
6:41
Speaker 3: parts of the world to appeal that they came from America.
6:43
Speaker 3: So one theory is that that text could have originated
6:45
Speaker 3: in the Middle East, which is entirely possible. I mean, Adam,
6:49
Speaker 3: I contacted the number and received a reply, and at
6:53
Speaker 3: that point we sort of decided we would leave our
6:56
Speaker 3: investigations for a period of time until we'd had a
6:59
Speaker 3: chat in at the Herald Sun with other members of
7:01
Speaker 3: the editorial team, just because we don't know who's at
7:04
Speaker 3: the other end that phone. It could be a very
7:06
Speaker 3: dangerous person. And in the time I left the reply
7:10
Speaker 3: on red, whoever was behind it closed the WhatsApp account.
7:14
Speaker 3: And there are other reports I've seen that claim to
7:18
Speaker 3: be the cartel again saying that if anyone leaks our
7:21
Speaker 3: text messages going forward and shares our phone numbers with
7:24
Speaker 3: the media or the public, there will be consequences.
7:27
Speaker 1: So that's a bit of behind the scenes of our reporting. Yeah,
7:31
Speaker 1: I need to ask you what was the reply?
7:33
Speaker 3: Pretty simple, just I had rung the number a few times,
7:36
Speaker 3: and somebody wrote back saying who's this And at that
7:40
Speaker 3: point I thought, because I thought perhaps the number wouldn't
7:43
Speaker 3: go anywhere, I was actually quite surprised that there was
7:45
Speaker 3: somebody at the other end of the phone.
7:47
Speaker 4: So at that point I.
7:48
Speaker 3: Thought, look, I'm going to bring in just a few
7:50
Speaker 3: more people on my investigations. And yeah, as I said,
7:54
Speaker 3: we sort of decided to look, let's hold the brakes until,
7:56
Speaker 3: you know, we've perhaps had a wider editorial conversation about
7:59
Speaker 3: how to proceed given the potential danger here. And I
8:03
Speaker 3: didn't get to follow up that reply because, as I say,
8:05
Speaker 3: they deleted the account.
8:07
Speaker 1: I've kind of been where you're at at the moment,
8:09
Speaker 1: seb in the sense of violence spreading across the city,
8:13
Speaker 1: not quite sure what the limits are, not quite sure
8:16
Speaker 1: who's fully behind it. You've got to be careful, definitely.
8:20
Speaker 3: You know, it's almost like we're becoming desensitized to it,
8:23
Speaker 3: but we can't underline the fact that we're waking up
8:25
Speaker 3: every morning with another business blown up or another business
8:28
Speaker 3: shot at. You know, and this is Melbourne, you said yourself,
8:31
Speaker 3: once the world's most livable city. You know, we're not
8:33
Speaker 3: in there. I say it parts of the Middle East
8:35
Speaker 3: that are in a formal conflict, and yet we're seeing
8:38
Speaker 3: all sorts of violence going on night after night, like
8:41
Speaker 3: it's a real concern. I mean, one I'll call them,
8:43
Speaker 3: a sort of influential Melbournian said to me the other day.
8:47
Speaker 3: They believe that we should just be calling this terrorism
8:50
Speaker 3: flat out. This is just terrorism on the streets of
8:52
Speaker 3: our city. And this person who's fairly well connected in
8:54
Speaker 3: political circles, said that they would be encouraging the police
8:59
Speaker 3: to establish a heavily armed presence, possibly even port teams,
9:02
Speaker 3: maybe even SOG style teams trolling the night hotspots, to
9:06
Speaker 3: send a strong message that this is unacceptable.
9:09
Speaker 1: You know.
9:10
Speaker 3: So I don't know if the police are considering that.
9:12
Speaker 3: I saw the Chief Commissioner speaking to this situation yesterday,
9:14
Speaker 3: so you know, this is becoming really concerning. Another high
9:17
Speaker 3: profile bar owner said, it's like we're in Chicago during
9:20
Speaker 3: the Prohibition era with gangsters just running a mark.
9:23
Speaker 1: It feels like Gotham City, not Melbourne.
9:26
Speaker 3: And then to ask you that you mentioned, you know,
9:28
Speaker 3: you covered a lot of the Gangland War. If this is,
9:31
Speaker 3: as one theory states, an overseas crime gang running this,
9:36
Speaker 3: how do you sort of interpret to me, that's just
9:39
Speaker 3: such a different situation, because how do police go after
9:43
Speaker 3: somebody who's overseas if the perpetrators don't necessarily live in
9:47
Speaker 3: the community. Is there any limits to the damage they're
9:50
Speaker 3: prepared to carry out?
9:51
Speaker 4: Like, do you think they're quite different situations?
9:52
Speaker 1: They're very different situations. And in particular, when you had
9:55
Speaker 1: Carl Williams running a mark killing all his enemies, he
9:58
Speaker 1: was hiring people for one hundred thousand dollars per hit
10:01
Speaker 1: and more, and in the end when he didn't pay
10:03
Speaker 1: his hit men, they turned on him. In this case,
10:06
Speaker 1: these young people setting fire at a restaurants and pubs
10:09
Speaker 1: and things, they're not connected to the actual mister Biggs.
10:13
Speaker 1: So when the cartel says the police can't help you,
10:19
Speaker 1: I think that carries some weight. This is going to
10:21
Speaker 1: be a unique situation for police to respond to. What
10:24
Speaker 1: are you seeing from their messaging about their confidence and
10:27
Speaker 1: bring it to heal well.
10:28
Speaker 3: I think what's really interesting to me is they obviously
10:31
Speaker 3: have a really good line of sight on who the
10:34
Speaker 3: grassroots foot soldiers are, you know, So these are these
10:38
Speaker 3: sixteen seventeen year old kids who are supposedly being recruited
10:41
Speaker 3: through an encrypted app to actually do the dirty work,
10:44
Speaker 3: to go and light the bar on fire for as
10:46
Speaker 3: you said, a couple hundred bucks. Maybe some drugs as well,
10:48
Speaker 3: thrown in by the people up the chain. And I'll
10:51
Speaker 3: give you one example. You know, we reported on the
10:54
Speaker 3: Temple Stowe bashing and the man whose father had also
10:56
Speaker 3: been attacked for the first time broke that story in
10:58
Speaker 3: there held some last week and within twenty four hours
11:01
Speaker 3: three teenagers had been rounded up and charged over that incident.
11:05
Speaker 3: As to who the foot soldiers are, police seem to
11:08
Speaker 3: have a good line of sight on that, which makes
11:11
Speaker 3: me wonder how close they are to moving up the chain,
11:15
Speaker 3: you know. One of the theories and you know, again
11:17
Speaker 3: a lot of guessing is going on here, but there
11:20
Speaker 3: is a theory that you know, the mo sort of
11:22
Speaker 3: fits the tobacco war where smoke shops were being stood
11:25
Speaker 3: over for illicit cigarettes, and that in Melbourne was being
11:28
Speaker 3: led by this kaz Hamad who is you know, a
11:31
Speaker 3: crime figure, but he's currently overseas in an Iraqi prison.
11:35
Speaker 3: So does he have the resources to be directing this
11:39
Speaker 3: violence on venues.
11:41
Speaker 4: I'm not sure.
11:42
Speaker 3: We reported this morning, Anthony Dowsey, my colleague that apparently
11:46
Speaker 3: does have access to communications like you can make phone calls,
11:49
Speaker 3: but surely they'd be monitored. What I know about his
11:52
Speaker 3: custody is that he is well. The AFP was involved
11:56
Speaker 3: in his arrest. It's an Iraqi authority that are running
11:59
Speaker 3: the prison. So does that mean he has more access
12:02
Speaker 3: than he might if he was illustrating custody Perhaps, I'm
12:05
Speaker 3: not sure. I don't want to suggest that there's corruption there,
12:07
Speaker 3: but it's a different system to ours. But again that's
12:10
Speaker 3: not something that's been confirmed by Australian investigators who have
12:15
Speaker 3: now received more than one hundred intelligence reports about this case.
12:18
Speaker 1: We are hearing Iraq they're calling themselves the cartel, which
12:22
Speaker 1: was what Kaz called his group that took over all
12:25
Speaker 1: the illegal tobacco here and Victoria. And we're also hearing
12:27
Speaker 1: about other lieutenants who were still at large in Iraq
12:31
Speaker 1: and Australia able to carry on. And you wonder perhaps
12:35
Speaker 1: this is an attempt to let everybody else know that
12:40
Speaker 1: Kaz is still in charge even though he's incumunicado in
12:43
Speaker 1: an Iraqi prison.
12:44
Speaker 4: I mean, it's possible.
12:45
Speaker 3: And the similarities are the fire bombing mo and also.
12:49
Speaker 4: Getting kids to do the dirty work.
12:51
Speaker 3: So is it Kaz, Is it somebody who's tapped into
12:53
Speaker 3: that pipeline of teenagers prepared to do this sort of
12:57
Speaker 3: stuff you mentioned? There have been some reports that one
12:59
Speaker 3: of the men suspected of carrying out the unsuccessful hit
13:03
Speaker 3: on sam Abduura and the punisher outside Forkner Cemetery a few.
13:08
Speaker 4: Years ago could be involved in this.
13:10
Speaker 3: That person, as I understand it, it's currently in the
13:12
Speaker 3: Middle East, so you know, there's a lot of theories there.
13:14
Speaker 3: I mean, I sometimes wonder if we overthink this a
13:18
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, is it more likely that the
13:21
Speaker 3: violence has just been carried out closer to home? Could
13:24
Speaker 3: it be you know, I mentioned the illicit liquor. There's
13:26
Speaker 3: also a story going around that, you know, one of
13:29
Speaker 3: the promoted groups may know more. But then there's been
13:33
Speaker 3: reports as well that there's sort of a list circulating,
13:36
Speaker 3: and you know, I reported in this morning's paper that
13:38
Speaker 3: the Billboard nightclub and Russell Street that's been there for
13:40
Speaker 3: a long time recently received a.
13:43
Speaker 4: Tip that they were the next on the list. So,
13:45
Speaker 4: you know, is this part of an international ring?
13:48
Speaker 3: If so, again, I'm asking for what, where's the ask
13:51
Speaker 3: where's the financial demand that you know that makes this
13:55
Speaker 3: sort of makes sense.
13:58
Speaker 1: I've said before it's almost a cliche that power is
14:01
Speaker 1: defined in the underworld by those who will go further
14:05
Speaker 1: than anybody else, and fear is a big part of that.
14:09
Speaker 1: And you wonder whether the mister biggs of this situation
14:13
Speaker 1: understand how they're spreading fear through the media. And I'm
14:17
Speaker 1: letting this build up and build up and build up
14:20
Speaker 1: before they really make their demands known.
14:22
Speaker 4: Venue operators are terrified.
14:24
Speaker 3: You know, It's been just very noticeable to me how
14:28
Speaker 3: few people have been prepared to go on the record here.
14:30
Speaker 3: You know, when I ring a venue operator and I'm
14:32
Speaker 3: ringing just about everyone in Melbourne on a daily basis,
14:35
Speaker 3: what I'm hearing back almost every time is there's just
14:39
Speaker 3: nothing to gain here and everything to lose by putting
14:41
Speaker 3: my head up.
14:42
Speaker 4: And I understand that.
14:43
Speaker 3: I mean having said that, I don't know if the
14:45
Speaker 3: crooks read the papers and you know, take their next
14:48
Speaker 3: attack from there, but I completely understand these people are
14:51
Speaker 3: really scared, you know, for their not just for their businesses,
14:54
Speaker 3: you know, for their own safety and that of their families.
14:56
Speaker 3: And you know, I heard that a number of people
14:58
Speaker 3: within the nightclub industry, we're no longer residing at their
15:02
Speaker 3: permanent address, that they were living in airbnbs rooms and.
15:05
Speaker 4: CouchSurfing and that sort of thing.
15:07
Speaker 3: Another interesting theory that came up, and this was from
15:10
Speaker 3: a police source who told me that during Task Force Luna,
15:12
Speaker 3: which was the one that looked into the tobacco wars,
15:15
Speaker 3: what they had actually discovered was that after their sort
15:18
Speaker 3: of tobacco war violence had kind of been established in
15:21
Speaker 3: popular culture or through the media, that there were people
15:25
Speaker 3: who were sort of using the cover of that to
15:28
Speaker 3: carry out attacks on either a personal or commercial rival,
15:32
Speaker 3: hoping that they'd almost sort of skate through and that
15:35
Speaker 3: the finger would be pointed at the tobacco war.
15:38
Speaker 4: And it's possible that's happening here too.
15:40
Speaker 3: That yes, maybe a few of the attacks are to
15:43
Speaker 3: do with an organized crime group or to do with
15:45
Speaker 3: alicit alcohol situation, but that maybe also some of these
15:51
Speaker 3: attacks are more personal or about things like drug distribution,
15:56
Speaker 3: something more local.
15:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing that struck me in that note was
16:00
Speaker 1: the reference to we want your souls as well. And
16:04
Speaker 1: I have heard one theory that there's some sort of
16:06
Speaker 1: Shia versus Sunny thing going on in the Islamic crime community.
16:11
Speaker 1: Have you heard that? One?
16:12
Speaker 3: A bar owner told me yesterday, And I guess I'm
16:15
Speaker 3: cautious to share this because you know, I don't want
16:18
Speaker 3: it to be inflammatory. But one of the rumors that
16:20
Speaker 3: bar owners are talking about is that there's sort of
16:23
Speaker 3: a religious motivation behind this, and I think that's kind
16:26
Speaker 3: of come from the fact that they're yet to receive
16:28
Speaker 3: a financial demand, so they're thinking, why is all this
16:30
Speaker 3: damage being done? And that theory goes that a hard
16:33
Speaker 3: line Islamic group attacking things like alcohol sales, strip clubs, brothels.
16:40
Speaker 3: You know, I guess that the vice and sin operations
16:44
Speaker 3: to establish you know, a hard line kind of Islamus culture.
16:49
Speaker 3: That's I have heard the theory. I mean, no, the
16:50
Speaker 3: text didn't contain any references. I suppose it has the
16:53
Speaker 3: reference to the souls, but I didn't sort of have
16:55
Speaker 3: any Arabic or no.
16:57
Speaker 1: I'm in the kind of bizarre thank you at the end.
16:59
Speaker 4: That is odd.
16:59
Speaker 3: You know, when I first got that, I looked at
17:02
Speaker 3: that as almost like, is it possible that was a hux.
17:05
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a very strange sign off. You know,
17:09
Speaker 3: the police are taking it seriously. That's all I can
17:11
Speaker 3: tell you. Five operators received it Operation Eclipse by the
17:14
Speaker 3: time I reported it. I broke that story on Monday night.
17:17
Speaker 3: By the time I reported it on the text, Operation
17:19
Speaker 3: Eclipse had the text. They were Operational Eclips, being the
17:22
Speaker 3: specialized task force at these hospitality bombings, they had the text.
17:26
Speaker 3: They interviewed people, They'd received statements on it, so they
17:28
Speaker 3: were taking it seriously. But it did stand out to
17:31
Speaker 3: me as an odd thing to put in an extortion
17:33
Speaker 3: demand or a threat.
17:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Normally these extortion situations happened behind closed doors
17:39
Speaker 1: and not some stuff that's broadcast through the media and
17:42
Speaker 1: to your really a point about whether people are reading
17:45
Speaker 1: the media, listening to the stories and say forth. I'm
17:47
Speaker 1: sure they are. They always have, and they're calculating the
17:51
Speaker 1: impact of their operations based on that. Do you get
17:54
Speaker 1: that feeling of people looking over your shoulder these perpetrators
17:57
Speaker 1: as you write these stories.
18:00
Speaker 3: I can't say when I get so obsessed with trying
18:03
Speaker 3: to figure out what's going on that maybe i'd and
18:05
Speaker 3: think about personal safety enough. I mean, look, I haven't
18:08
Speaker 3: had any face to face contact with somebody who's claiming
18:11
Speaker 3: to have done it, which again I think makes this
18:13
Speaker 3: situation different to perhaps the underbelly, where I don't know,
18:17
Speaker 3: could you in that period have access to the Carls
18:20
Speaker 3: and the Tony Mockbells and try and interview them?
18:23
Speaker 4: Was that something well?
18:24
Speaker 1: Idea? I mean, I was talking to Carl all the
18:25
Speaker 1: way through that, and that was a simple linear situation.
18:28
Speaker 1: You bring him up, you went and met him. This
18:30
Speaker 1: is different, and I'm not really talking about personal safety
18:32
Speaker 1: as much as this is being played out through the
18:35
Speaker 1: media and its power is the unknown and that idea
18:39
Speaker 1: that these guys have the dash to do anything. Yes,
18:42
Speaker 1: And so I guess as a media we have to
18:45
Speaker 1: be conscious that there may be people looking over our
18:48
Speaker 1: shoulders as we write these stories we broadcast this threaten
18:51
Speaker 1: this power. Are we unwittingly part of the problem of
18:55
Speaker 1: the necessary or we're helping their pr sort of?
18:58
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, Look, that's always a risk.
19:01
Speaker 3: And I guess my approach to that is is something true?
19:04
Speaker 3: Do I believe it to be true? Therefore that's my
19:07
Speaker 3: main consideration. Ah, I mean, I don't know. I think
19:09
Speaker 3: sometimes also reporting it can be a disincentive for people
19:13
Speaker 3: to actually carry it out, if that makes sense, Like
19:16
Speaker 3: can be. Yeah, I think if we can information out
19:19
Speaker 3: there before they strike, that might make them reassess their plans.
19:22
Speaker 4: So you know, I think I think that's possible too.
19:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:24
Speaker 3: Look, it's it's always a balance, and you know, I'm
19:27
Speaker 3: definitely taking seriously when people tell me I'll speak to you,
19:30
Speaker 3: but not on the record. That is, you know, they're
19:33
Speaker 3: happy to share information they've heard. This is people within
19:35
Speaker 3: the hospitality industry, but they don't want their name showing
19:38
Speaker 3: up in the paper. And I'm very respectful of that
19:41
Speaker 3: given the circumstances, you know. And I think what really
19:45
Speaker 3: changed this situation was when the violence moved from being
19:50
Speaker 3: just attacks on empty venues at three o'clock in the
19:52
Speaker 3: morning to people's homes, you know. And we've seen that
19:56
Speaker 3: a number of times. The Temple Stowe won the packing
19:59
Speaker 3: and one, and there was also an attack at Mulven
20:01
Speaker 3: And my information is the crooks would given the Maulvin
20:06
Speaker 3: address of a nightclub promoter. Unbeknownst to them, the nightclub
20:11
Speaker 3: promoter had actually moved and so when they got to
20:14
Speaker 3: that Maulvin address, the person they bashed and actually kidnapped
20:19
Speaker 3: was just a tenant in an address and not a
20:22
Speaker 3: person at all linked to the nightclub industry. So it's
20:25
Speaker 3: just a case of flat out mistaken identity. So now
20:29
Speaker 3: not only do you have people being followed home who
20:31
Speaker 3: have some links to nightclubs, random citizens are getting caught
20:35
Speaker 3: up in this and that's all right.
20:37
Speaker 1: And that tends to be the inflection point when innocent
20:40
Speaker 1: bystanders and these sorts of things happen, and when people
20:44
Speaker 1: outstrip the limitations of their power. When Kasamad was involved
20:49
Speaker 1: in the fire bombing of a synagogue in Corefield here
20:52
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, that was a signal for the Iraqi authorities,
20:56
Speaker 1: so no, you can't be sponsoring terrorism on behalf of Iran.
21:00
Speaker 1: And that was the moment where the Australian Federal Police
21:02
Speaker 1: began to work with the Iraqi officials and kas was
21:03
Speaker 1: taken off the streets. I'm sure there'll be a point
21:07
Speaker 1: where that's reached as well in this one, where either
21:10
Speaker 1: an innocent bystander gets killed or enough people begin to
21:14
Speaker 1: say enough enough and begin to speak on the record.
21:18
Speaker 4: I mean, and that's why I feel for the nightclub industry.
21:20
Speaker 3: I know they definitely feel like they don't always get
21:23
Speaker 3: taken seriously as a victim of crime. Because people think nightclubs,
21:26
Speaker 3: they think it's lose, they think drinking drugs, and perhaps,
21:28
Speaker 3: you know, the police aren't as likely to help them.
21:30
Speaker 3: And in one nightclub owner who was pretty exasperated and
21:34
Speaker 3: said to me, you know, if we were a chain
21:36
Speaker 3: of garden stores, or you know, if it was the
21:38
Speaker 3: garden industry, I think we'd be getting a lot more attention,
21:42
Speaker 3: a lot sooner. So, you know, I do feel for
21:44
Speaker 3: the nightclub industry, particularly, you know, operators who I believe
21:47
Speaker 3: to be pretty straight shooters, who I guess what I'm
21:51
Speaker 3: talking to is the enough's enough point. Well, if you're
21:53
Speaker 3: a nightclub operator, the enough's enough point happened weeks ago,
21:57
Speaker 3: you know, when your venue got blown up, you know,
21:59
Speaker 3: and your business was finished.
22:01
Speaker 4: I mean, the Albion Hotel still closed.
22:03
Speaker 3: It's just around the corner here in South I don't
22:06
Speaker 3: know if they'll reopen the Love Machine Bar, which had
22:09
Speaker 3: a few question marks and has a pretty interesting history
22:12
Speaker 3: of shootings and whatnot.
22:13
Speaker 4: That won't reopen. That's done.
22:15
Speaker 3: If you're an operator who's been firebombed and there was
22:17
Speaker 3: significant damage, probably asking the question, am I rushing to
22:21
Speaker 3: open my doors again at the moment?
22:24
Speaker 1: Indeed, and the police have moved to reassure the public
22:27
Speaker 1: based on not much more than a tough sounding task
22:30
Speaker 1: Force Eclipse. Why had they come up with these names,
22:33
Speaker 1: by the way, it's yeah, yeah, but it sounds sounds tough.
22:36
Speaker 1: They say, thirty four to thirty five arrests. Who are
22:39
Speaker 1: the people that have been arrested so far?
22:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, so these are the kids. The kids, they're seventeen
22:43
Speaker 4: year olds, you know.
22:43
Speaker 3: So that's why, I mean, I find it interesting that
22:45
Speaker 3: they can go and get the guys doing the dirty
22:48
Speaker 3: work pretty quickly, you know, and I'm sure they've got
22:51
Speaker 3: a lot of information that's getting them closer to those
22:53
Speaker 3: who are ordering it. But yeah, largely that group of
22:56
Speaker 3: people is teenagers who are carrying out the fire bombings. Yeah,
23:00
Speaker 3: I mean, the coups are trying to put all sorts
23:01
Speaker 3: of messages out at the moment, you know, one of
23:03
Speaker 3: them today that they used to sort of I guess
23:07
Speaker 3: give people some confidence that they would take it seriously,
23:09
Speaker 3: as they put out of line that the same police
23:12
Speaker 3: who were involved in finding and shooting Dessi Freeman are
23:15
Speaker 3: also involved in this investigation.
23:17
Speaker 4: So I think that was their.
23:18
Speaker 3: Way of saying, this is priority number one, but so
23:21
Speaker 3: it should be what.
23:22
Speaker 1: Took them six months to find Desi Freeman. So I'm
23:24
Speaker 1: not sure that's necessarily anything comforting, but I think Melbourne's
23:27
Speaker 1: always ahead of the crime curve and ahead of most
23:29
Speaker 1: things really ex Sydney side of saying that, and I
23:32
Speaker 1: wonder what this is the new model of crime? Why
23:34
Speaker 1: would you need to go enlist people from jail or
23:37
Speaker 1: your biking clubs or whatever on the basis of trust
23:40
Speaker 1: when through technology you can enlist people's help on a
23:44
Speaker 1: sort of crime tasker basis with encrypto.
23:46
Speaker 3: Apps and terrifying really, you know, And that's where the
23:50
Speaker 3: conversation broadens out to be law and order, right. You know,
23:53
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of criticism about Victoria's bail laws
23:56
Speaker 3: and how we treat young offenders, and you know, I
23:59
Speaker 3: think it's fair to say teenagers know that if it's
24:02
Speaker 3: their first defense, they're going to be able to make
24:05
Speaker 3: bail and they're unlikely to face any sort of sentence,
24:08
Speaker 3: you know, and I think they're probably told that by
24:10
Speaker 3: the mister Biggs.
24:11
Speaker 1: Right.
24:11
Speaker 3: You know, if you get caught, you know, nothing's going
24:13
Speaker 3: to happen to you anyway, so you know, you may
24:15
Speaker 3: as well, go and do it.
24:16
Speaker 4: And this has been happening for quite some time.
24:18
Speaker 3: I mean, a lot of the car theft that goes
24:21
Speaker 3: on is being done by teenagers who are bringing in
24:24
Speaker 3: the car to be rebirthed by a more sophisticated criminal organization.
24:29
Speaker 3: You know, it's the same with jewelry stores for a while.
24:31
Speaker 3: We're looking at this, you know, young kids who are
24:32
Speaker 3: happy to run in the middle of today, smash up
24:35
Speaker 3: the cabinets, take some rings, get out and again give
24:37
Speaker 3: them back to a Fagan like character to reference the
24:41
Speaker 3: Oliver twist. Yeah, I think, I think definitely the new
24:43
Speaker 3: model is crooks don't like to do their own dirty
24:46
Speaker 3: work anymore.
24:47
Speaker 1: Never did. Really, if they can find people who stand
24:49
Speaker 1: on the dock on their own, and they'll certainly enlist them.
24:51
Speaker 1: And what's the profile of the people that caught so far?
24:54
Speaker 1: We have seen obviously youth crime, machete crime dominated by
24:58
Speaker 1: African gangs. Here are we seeing in the ethnic group
25:01
Speaker 1: or socioeconomic group that's dominating in this group. It's hard
25:04
Speaker 1: to tell, you know, I think definitely looking at some
25:07
Speaker 1: of the vision, you know, they're often got ballet clava's on,
25:10
Speaker 1: they're often got heavy hoods and whatnot. So it is
25:13
Speaker 1: hard to make out exactly who it is, but there
25:14
Speaker 1: are some videos I can think of, but you can
25:16
Speaker 1: see a young African kid who's involved in this.
25:20
Speaker 4: I don't know whether that means it's.
25:21
Speaker 3: Exclusively you know, kids out of the African community, you know,
25:24
Speaker 3: even though we have had some issues around youth crime
25:27
Speaker 3: gangs from African communities. So, you know, I think people
25:30
Speaker 3: listening to this may have already made that link, but
25:32
Speaker 3: I don't think specifically they're tapping on one group or another.
25:36
Speaker 1: I think I've read in one of your stories, even
25:37
Speaker 1: where the background is not one of a long criminal history,
25:42
Speaker 1: this might be their first offense and tells you what's
25:45
Speaker 1: going wrong in our families, our community, in these kids'
25:48
Speaker 1: heads where this seems like a good thing to do.
25:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a social conversation all in and
25:54
Speaker 3: of itself. You know, again, probably talking out of my
25:57
Speaker 3: area of expertise, but I often think with social media
26:00
Speaker 3: now kids get this sense of you know that they're
26:03
Speaker 3: missing out, or you know that they have access to
26:06
Speaker 3: pictures and videos of people living extraordinarily extraordinary lives, which
26:10
Speaker 3: I think leads to even more impatience and the sense
26:14
Speaker 3: of being unsettled. Then it happened in previous generations, which
26:18
Speaker 3: we always felt that, you know, we wanted more from
26:21
Speaker 3: life as teenagers. But I think it's even worse now
26:23
Speaker 3: with the just amount of noise and images that is
26:26
Speaker 3: available to young people.
26:28
Speaker 1: Trying to describe for the listeners what it's like to
26:31
Speaker 1: be a reporter in the eye of a storm like this.
26:34
Speaker 1: I know what it's like, and that where you don't
26:36
Speaker 1: know what the next day is going to bring, and
26:38
Speaker 1: how you use your time productively. What's it like to
26:41
Speaker 1: be covering a story like this.
26:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I perhaps one of my strengths in this
26:46
Speaker 3: is I, you know, am sort of prone to obsession.
26:48
Speaker 3: So with this story, you know, I'm spending hours on it.
26:51
Speaker 3: I just I really want to kind of crack what's
26:55
Speaker 3: driving this because again I still keep asking myself there's
26:58
Speaker 3: a lot of theories, you know, and we're still yet
27:01
Speaker 3: to know exactly why the city's burning. So yeah, look,
27:05
Speaker 3: I've had it put to me before that I probably
27:07
Speaker 3: need a bit more fear in the way I go
27:09
Speaker 3: about my reporting because I get so sort of focused
27:12
Speaker 3: on finding out things and investigating that you know, I
27:15
Speaker 3: don't kind of think too much about am I making
27:18
Speaker 3: myself a target? But yeah, look, I think I think
27:21
Speaker 3: it's just a story like this requires a lot of
27:25
Speaker 3: energy and hours, but also focus because you know, you
27:30
Speaker 3: mentioned before about that conversation about you know, are we
27:33
Speaker 3: helping run PR for the crooks? And I think you
27:36
Speaker 3: know that just is one reason why you know, I
27:39
Speaker 3: need to be really responsible on a story like this,
27:41
Speaker 3: you know, and make sure that if I'm going to
27:43
Speaker 3: put something in writing that I'm confident of it, you
27:46
Speaker 3: know that.
27:46
Speaker 4: That it's true.
27:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was accused back of the day of doing
27:50
Speaker 1: PR for Carl Williams by my own news editor. He said,
27:55
Speaker 1: I think you're too close, and I said, I think
27:57
Speaker 1: you're too far away. How do you manage that relationship
27:59
Speaker 1: with your editors and the newspaper itself? Obviously the Herald's
28:02
Speaker 1: done as a huge institution in Melbourne and this is
28:06
Speaker 1: a highly visible story and every step is being watched.
28:10
Speaker 1: What's that? Like?
28:11
Speaker 4: I'm with you.
28:12
Speaker 3: I think for me, journalism is all about relationships, you know,
28:15
Speaker 3: and as long as you're honest, like as I'm sure
28:18
Speaker 3: you were, like with a guy like Karl, you're hardly
28:21
Speaker 3: going to say to him, Yah, mate, I'm going to
28:22
Speaker 3: print whatever you tell me, like there's going to be
28:24
Speaker 3: some discernment there. And that's kind of how I take
28:27
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, if you sort of run
28:30
Speaker 3: around publishing everything straight away, you know, you tend to
28:35
Speaker 3: burn people who may have something to offer if I
28:37
Speaker 3: take a more patient approach. So for me, I think
28:40
Speaker 3: it's important that there's sort of honest, trusting relationships built.
28:44
Speaker 3: And I guess you know, I haven't spoken to any
28:46
Speaker 3: of the alleged perpetrators here, so I'm more talking about.
28:48
Speaker 4: Sort of venue owners and beliefs and that sort of thing.
28:50
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, if I'm going to chronicle
28:53
Speaker 3: situation and the people involved in it, you know, I
28:56
Speaker 3: want to get as close as I can.
28:57
Speaker 1: You have to, you have to, And I'm sure there's
29:00
Speaker 1: that moment in the morning when you get to work
29:02
Speaker 1: the chief of staff says said, what do you got
29:04
Speaker 1: for us today? Yeah? Yeah, and a lot of fear
29:07
Speaker 1: in anxiety and drive in that sort of a conversation.
29:10
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely, And you know that's the wrestle, right Like
29:13
Speaker 3: when you're on a good story pivoting kind of into
29:15
Speaker 3: a journalism conversation. But when I'm on a good story,
29:17
Speaker 3: I want to hang on to it and stay at
29:19
Speaker 3: the front of it. You know, that's sort of rivalries
29:22
Speaker 3: that extend between newspapers and outlets, but also inside the newsroom.
29:25
Speaker 3: You know, I want to make sure that I'm continuing
29:27
Speaker 3: to bring information of substance and of consequence every day,
29:31
Speaker 3: and there's obviously pressure that comes with that too.
29:33
Speaker 1: You know.
29:34
Speaker 3: I think the thing about journalism is, you know, there's
29:38
Speaker 3: no limit to how many calls you can make, right,
29:41
Speaker 3: and you know, sometimes making one hundred instead of three
29:43
Speaker 3: isn't actually going to bring you any more information.
29:45
Speaker 4: Maybe call number one hundred and one will.
29:48
Speaker 1: If you don't make it, you'll never know.
29:50
Speaker 4: What did Michael Jordan say?
29:52
Speaker 3: I think I've missed one hundred percent of shots I
29:54
Speaker 3: didn't take.
29:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. So it's the middle of the night,
30:00
Speaker 1: your phone rings. It's from Iraq. It's one of these
30:03
Speaker 1: people who wants to use you to tell their story.
30:07
Speaker 1: How do you approach that?
30:09
Speaker 3: Well, I think I have that conversation and I get
30:13
Speaker 3: as much detail as I can before I publish anything.
30:16
Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of different factors that go
30:18
Speaker 3: into what actually goes in the newspaper, editors, lawyers, all
30:21
Speaker 3: of that. But I think, yeah, I definitely have the chat.
30:24
Speaker 3: I try to figure out who this person is. I
30:27
Speaker 3: try and establish at their faired income and they are
30:29
Speaker 3: who they say they are, and then I listen, you know,
30:32
Speaker 3: with that information, I will probably run it by investigators
30:37
Speaker 3: or at least you know, the people. Oh, I speak
30:39
Speaker 3: to a Victoria police. I'll try and run it by
30:43
Speaker 3: venue operators, see if it checks out. You know, I'll
30:46
Speaker 3: run it by my own notes to make sure it
30:48
Speaker 3: checks out. But I definitely take that call. Of course,
30:51
Speaker 3: you take the call.
30:52
Speaker 1: Of course you take that call. Who wouldn't take the
30:54
Speaker 1: call exactly? But you also face criticism again that you're
30:58
Speaker 1: the mouthpiece for the crooks. But I mean, I think
31:00
Speaker 1: you know, the public can't have it both ways. They
31:03
Speaker 1: can't expect you to go out there on the front
31:04
Speaker 1: line showing a lot of dash and bravery and then
31:07
Speaker 1: not take that call. So I think people out there
31:09
Speaker 1: who've got a critical view of the media and here
31:11
Speaker 1: all the time, my goodness, you know, they go, oh,
31:13
Speaker 1: you're just doing it in it for the money, not
31:15
Speaker 1: in it for the money. Honestly, you're in it for
31:16
Speaker 1: the story. And we've had conversations over a long period
31:19
Speaker 1: now about your love of journalism. You're thirst for it,
31:22
Speaker 1: and you almost at a moment where you almost went
31:24
Speaker 1: sideways into pr and I said to you, you've got
31:26
Speaker 1: more stories to tell, and I reckon, this is your story, exep.
31:30
Speaker 4: I really do remember chat.
31:32
Speaker 3: I think it was maybe even a cofee shop down
31:33
Speaker 3: in Richmond, and you know it was really helpful.
31:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, like it's in my blood.
31:36
Speaker 3: I really I really sort of value the opportunity to
31:40
Speaker 3: try and find out what the true story is.
31:43
Speaker 4: You know, that's for me, Like I grew up. My
31:46
Speaker 4: dad was a politician, as you know, so I grew up.
31:48
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
31:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, I grew around people who now were quite good.
31:51
Speaker 3: It's been you know, look over here. So I think
31:53
Speaker 3: that kind of from a young age gave me a
31:55
Speaker 3: bit of a thirst to point out truth. And journalism
31:58
Speaker 3: allows me to do that. And I think, you know,
32:00
Speaker 3: I come back to too. You mentioned like the criticism
32:02
Speaker 3: we sometimes get for profiling criminals of people who have
32:06
Speaker 3: done the wrong thing.
32:07
Speaker 4: Everyone's got a story.
32:09
Speaker 3: You know, the reader can judge what they think of
32:11
Speaker 3: the person I'm profiling.
32:13
Speaker 4: That's great.
32:14
Speaker 3: I love that but doesn't mean I don't tell their
32:16
Speaker 3: story if they've got a sort of bad reputation.
32:20
Speaker 1: That's right. Another piece of advice I'll give you from
32:23
Speaker 1: my old mentor, Brian Francis Murphy, the skull, legendary Victorian Copper,
32:27
Speaker 1: when I was getting threatening calls from the Gangland War
32:29
Speaker 1: and afterwards, I said, Brian, m'll be concerning these people
32:32
Speaker 1: call the mid other night hoping I die and get
32:34
Speaker 1: blown up and all this kind of stuff, and they're
32:35
Speaker 1: going to steal my dog and burn my house down
32:37
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. He said, mate, the ones who
32:40
Speaker 1: wring you are not the ones you should be worrying about.
32:43
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. Absolutely.
32:46
Speaker 3: I think, you know, sometimes it's what's going on that
32:48
Speaker 3: we don't know about correct are concerned about.
32:51
Speaker 2: Now.
32:51
Speaker 1: Interesting, we're seeing this in Sydney and Melbourne. We're seeing
32:54
Speaker 1: non traditional media outlets springing up where the crooks and
33:00
Speaker 1: witnesses and things are posting vision too. We've seen one
33:03
Speaker 1: here in Melbourne outlaw Media. What role are they playing
33:06
Speaker 1: in supplying content to the mainstream media about this whole thing?
33:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I have a lot of questions about
33:11
Speaker 3: where they get the information from. And I think I
33:15
Speaker 3: think it's fair to say with some of those blogs
33:17
Speaker 3: you can ask the question how close are they?
33:20
Speaker 1: You know?
33:21
Speaker 3: Because yeah, I mean I think you know, I trained
33:24
Speaker 3: in journalism, been doing it for twenty years, and you know,
33:26
Speaker 3: I understand very much that there's three sides to every story,
33:30
Speaker 3: yours and the truth.
33:31
Speaker 1: Right.
33:31
Speaker 3: These blogs are interesting, they get stuff, They definitely get stuff,
33:35
Speaker 3: you know, the Outlaw Media guy definitely gets videos and
33:38
Speaker 3: stuff that we haven't seen before. But I also do
33:40
Speaker 3: notice in his copy that there are sometimes just factual.
33:44
Speaker 4: Errors, you know.
33:45
Speaker 3: So I was talking about the bashing that had happened
33:48
Speaker 3: in Templestowe before and for example that Outlaw Media reported
33:52
Speaker 3: listed as being in Doncaster, so it was just wrong
33:54
Speaker 3: as to where it had taken place. So you know,
33:57
Speaker 3: I've got questions about the fact checking that goes on there,
33:59
Speaker 3: and you know, for that reason, I'd never just straight
34:02
Speaker 3: out take a report from these bloggers as being percent accurate.
34:06
Speaker 4: But some of it is worth looking.
34:09
Speaker 1: At, Yeah, because it's one It's one source, isn't it.
34:12
Speaker 1: But you're out there using old fashioned shoe leather, knocking
34:15
Speaker 1: on doors, talking to people. You're able to verify that.
34:18
Speaker 1: So people who are saying that journalism is dead, I
34:20
Speaker 1: think it's completely wrong. And I think this is a
34:22
Speaker 1: moment where journalism in this city could be revitalized and
34:25
Speaker 1: use those contacts, and if the police media are clever
34:28
Speaker 1: and they reach out and work with you on a
34:30
Speaker 1: basis of trust and integrity, this can be a pro
34:33
Speaker 1: social moment.
34:35
Speaker 4: No, I agree.
34:35
Speaker 3: I think in an era where everyone can publish, it
34:38
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that everyone who does is doing it properly.
34:42
Speaker 3: So I would hope that good journalism that is connected,
34:46
Speaker 3: that is having access to the right people and you know,
34:49
Speaker 3: really kind of pulls the curtain bags to what's really
34:51
Speaker 3: going on.
34:52
Speaker 4: I would hope that.
34:52
Speaker 3: Stands out in this era of self publishing and actually
34:55
Speaker 3: becomes more valuable.
34:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, well this is not academic accountable too.
34:59
Speaker 3: By the way, these bloggers make sure, you know, if
35:02
Speaker 3: they're going with a story, I've got to make sure
35:04
Speaker 3: that my story is right and brings more to the table,
35:07
Speaker 3: you know, absolutely, because they can also I mean, that's
35:10
Speaker 3: the interesting thing about having heaps of voices online is
35:13
Speaker 3: you know they can also hold me accountabook, like, they
35:15
Speaker 3: can fact check my stuff and you know, if there's
35:17
Speaker 3: stuff there that is wrong, I can, I guess face
35:20
Speaker 3: more of a consequence for it that I might have
35:22
Speaker 3: been able to twenty years ago, which is why I
35:24
Speaker 3: make sure my stuff's all right.
35:26
Speaker 1: You're doing a fantastic job mate, Thank you. What's going
35:28
Speaker 1: to happen? Have you got any visions waking nightmares? Idea?
35:33
Speaker 1: What's going to happen?
35:34
Speaker 3: Well, I think it'll become clearer what this is about,
35:37
Speaker 3: you know, because it's now been going on for the
35:39
Speaker 3: better part of a month and a half and got
35:41
Speaker 3: as many questions as answers.
35:43
Speaker 1: I would actually.
35:44
Speaker 3: Hope that the more attention it gets that hopefully discourages
35:50
Speaker 3: some of the appetite for the young people to carry
35:53
Speaker 3: out the dirty work.
35:54
Speaker 2: You know.
35:54
Speaker 3: I'd hope maybe it goes quiet for a while because
35:57
Speaker 3: the industry is hurting, you know, and Melbourne's a city
35:59
Speaker 3: that really needs a healthy hospitality industry.
36:02
Speaker 4: You know, that's the weather sode Dad.
36:03
Speaker 1: We've got to have a place to goes for a train.
36:05
Speaker 3: And it's not like Sydney. You know, you can walk
36:07
Speaker 3: up the bridge. You're going to look at the harbor.
36:09
Speaker 3: You know, that's kind of their drawer, you know, Melbourne's
36:13
Speaker 3: strength is really in people in culture, and if you
36:15
Speaker 3: take out our hospitality scene, that's a big loss, you know.
36:19
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I think we saw with the
36:21
Speaker 3: tobacco wars, didn't we know bystanders getting hurt? And also,
36:25
Speaker 3: you know I mentioned before that video from the Lardi
36:28
Speaker 3: Dar on Monday night or the early hours of Tuesday morning,
36:31
Speaker 3: where one of the fire bombers lit himself up on fire,
36:35
Speaker 3: So you might end up seeing some serious injuries amongst
36:38
Speaker 3: the perpetrators as well. I hope the noise discourages the
36:42
Speaker 3: brazenness and I'd love to know if Kaz is involved.
36:48
Speaker 3: You know, how soon we can get him back to
36:50
Speaker 3: Australia into the custody of our authority.
36:52
Speaker 1: Well, look what happened last time we put him in
36:54
Speaker 1: jail for heroin trafficking. He came out much stronger at
36:57
Speaker 1: the head of this tobacco cartel. So I think we
37:00
Speaker 1: best leave him overseas Because.
37:03
Speaker 3: They tracked his phones, didn't they like he was clearly
37:05
Speaker 3: using codes and whatnot to make calls from Zimbawin wherever
37:08
Speaker 3: he was, correct you, So you'd hope they'd monitor him
37:11
Speaker 3: a bit more closely this time around. And like I said,
37:13
Speaker 3: the AFP and vic POLL are now working together. They've
37:15
Speaker 3: got more than one hundred pieces of intelligence information. So
37:18
Speaker 3: you wonder if they're speaking with him in that Bagdad
37:22
Speaker 3: jile Cell as well.
37:23
Speaker 1: I would hope so, but I'm not sure. But I
37:24
Speaker 1: think it's not about personalities. If it's about illegal alcohol
37:29
Speaker 1: or legal tobacco, those sorts of things. This is an
37:32
Speaker 1: excise created problem. Yes, and you lop off one head,
37:36
Speaker 1: another head's going to pop up, well until you've changed
37:39
Speaker 1: the settings. Yeah, and I always sort of scratched my
37:41
Speaker 1: head at that, particularly with the tobacco. But surely with
37:43
Speaker 1: the hundreds or thousands of people in the treasury, there's
37:46
Speaker 1: someone who can do modeling that says, right at the moment,
37:49
Speaker 1: excess is so high that normal people aren't buying cigarettes,
37:52
Speaker 1: but they are buying black market and that's leading to
37:55
Speaker 1: the black market violence. Surely there's some.
37:58
Speaker 3: Modeling that could be done at the point at which
38:01
Speaker 3: excise is high enough to be a deterrent for health
38:04
Speaker 3: reasons and high enough for the government to make money,
38:06
Speaker 3: but low enough that it doesn't.
38:08
Speaker 4: Drive black market demand. And we don't seem to be there.
38:11
Speaker 3: I just mentioned a point that's been made on the
38:13
Speaker 3: alcohol too, Which I think is interesting is some who
38:16
Speaker 3: question the illicit liquor as a motive point to the
38:19
Speaker 3: fact that it's a lot harder to transport than cigarettes.
38:23
Speaker 3: So you can roll around the northern suburbs with two
38:26
Speaker 3: hundred packs of smokes, illicit smokes in the back of
38:28
Speaker 3: your Toyota camera and you know, quite easily push that
38:32
Speaker 3: onto shopkeepers. When it comes to the liquor, the volume
38:35
Speaker 3: you know that you're talking about bottles or vats of
38:37
Speaker 3: alcohol is a lot clunkier to distribute illegally, and you
38:41
Speaker 3: think it'll draw more attention if a truck of illicit
38:43
Speaker 3: booze rolls up, police can maybe master driver, heywhere's this
38:46
Speaker 3: coming from?
38:46
Speaker 4: So I think that does make sense, although I have
38:49
Speaker 4: had at.
38:49
Speaker 3: Least two venues say to me, no, we believe we
38:51
Speaker 3: had illegal liquor pushed onto us. So whether it's the
38:56
Speaker 3: main motivator, I don't know, but it has certainly been
38:58
Speaker 3: a factor for the hospitality industry.
39:00
Speaker 1: We shall see. I suspect it might be an overall
39:04
Speaker 1: grab the control of multiple outlets on multiple substances and
39:09
Speaker 1: just the right to exist.
39:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the old BIKEYMO is not just hospitality business,
39:14
Speaker 3: as any business is. To sort of run it down right,
39:17
Speaker 3: is to scare off the customers, put the asset in
39:20
Speaker 3: distress and then buy it at a cheap price, usually
39:23
Speaker 3: with a sort of presentable person on the lease or
39:26
Speaker 3: the title to mask the fact that it's the Vikings
39:29
Speaker 3: who own it. I mean that could be part of
39:31
Speaker 3: this as well, that they are seeking to put these
39:33
Speaker 3: venues into distress so they can take them over.
39:37
Speaker 1: Time will tell. Sev Costello. My hope is that when
39:40
Speaker 1: it does break, it's your story. We'll read it in
39:42
Speaker 1: the Herald's Sun. You're doing a fantastic job. I'm proud
39:45
Speaker 1: of you, by the way, mate, I'm proud of you
39:46
Speaker 1: what you're doing. So thank you for coming on real
39:48
Speaker 1: Croman Adam Shandaday. I've been waiting for the invitation, so
39:51
Speaker 1: it's good to make you. That's Sev Costello. It's an
39:58
Speaker 1: amazing situation down here. I remember people talking about the
40:01
Speaker 1: Gangland War as being the first gangland War of the
40:05
Speaker 1: information age. I think this is the first war of
40:07
Speaker 1: the attention age, where social media is driving this. Young
40:12
Speaker 1: kids getting involved, shadowy perpetrators somewhere overseas driving all these things.
40:18
Speaker 1: It really is something out of a like a Batman
40:20
Speaker 1: or some other Marvel comic situation. If you're out there,
40:24
Speaker 1: are you afraid of going to venues in Melbourne because
40:26
Speaker 1: you fear you might be caught up in this? Do
40:29
Speaker 1: you have any information about this that's useful to the coppers?
40:32
Speaker 1: If you do, please call crime Stoppers one eight hundred,
40:34
Speaker 1: triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust the police,
40:37
Speaker 1: you can always contact me and I'll give it to
40:38
Speaker 1: said Costello. I'm on Adam Shander rather at gmail dot com.
40:43
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. This has been Adam shann for
40:44
Speaker 1: Real Crime.
40:55
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40:58
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