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3RD LINDSAY "CLANCY-STYLE" HOMICIDE, HOLDOUT JUROR ATTACK · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tonight, a third mom kills her children, Clancy style, claiming
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: she wanted them all to go to God together. This
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: as the Clancy juror holdout attacked.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Did she just actually say, maybe I still believe she's guilty?
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: What?
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: She did use these elastic bands around their literal necks,
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: and she choked the life out.
• 0:40
  Speaker 5: Of them, Nancy.
• 0:41
  Speaker 6: The jurors are thinking a mother could not possibly, in
• 0:45
  Speaker 6: a hostile and malicious way, kill her children. But what
• 0:48
  Speaker 6: they're not talking about is her danger to the community.
• 0:52
  Speaker 7: He took the exercise band out of the bag. grabbed
• 0:58
  Speaker 7: an empty water bottle, and tied the band around the
• 1:03
  Speaker 7: water bottle and pulled it. We're not in here to
• 1:06
  Speaker 7: play detective or... It's not a game of Clue. Like,
• 1:09
  Speaker 7: this is serious.
• 1:11
  Speaker 8: It's disgusting.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: No, it's not a game of Clue.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: As you are speaking out on ABC, it is a
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: real-life case, sir, with three dead children.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: What?
• 1:24
  Speaker 9: The.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Demonstration the holdout Gerard performed in the jury deliberation room.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Was that too much for you? Try to imagine that
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: demonstration instead of a water bottle. It's Dawson or Cora
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: or Callan. Just tonight, the lone holdout Gerard under attack.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: This as another copycat mom kills her children. Clancy Style,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and of course says, I was having a psychotic break,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: just like her.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: When will it end?
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Straight out to Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative reporter, contributor,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: LA Magazine, star of Pop Crime TV. Lauren, the most
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: recent Clancy Style murders.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: The floodgates are open.
• 2:18
  Speaker 10: It's so tragic.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: And this actually occurred in April of 2026.
• 2:24
  Speaker 10: The Jeanette McCausland case.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: And she also tragically strangled her six and seven-year-old son
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: and daughter, Kai and Ella.
• 2:33
  Speaker 10: And then she.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: Fled to her aunt's house in Vermont. But Nancy, what
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: is so chilling about this is essentially what you said.
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: She said to her aunt and to police, I wanted
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: them to go to God or I wanted us to
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: go to God together.
• 2:52
  Speaker 10: But it didn't work.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: And Lindsay Clancy, when she strangled her children, reportedly said,
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: go to God, baby. McCausland also attempted to take her
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: own life by cutting her own throat.
• 3:05
  Speaker 10: And then she reportedly drove to.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: A- Let me understand something. Let me understand something. Lauren
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Conlon joining us, investigative reporter. So now I've got Lindsay
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Clancy who killed her children and.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Tried to kill herself. I assume you.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Have seen that window- where there are blood smudges, down,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: there you go, where she was holding on to make
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: her fall lesser. So in that case, Lindsay Clancy tries
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: to kill herself. Then in the next case, we've got
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Corey Walsh, who tries to kill herself with what, a
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: butter knife, and is found in the bathtub like she's
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: in a movie. And now we've got Jeanette McCausland. She
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: admits she killed her children. It's not open to maybe
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: so-and-so did it. She admits she did it. Isn't that right,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack, that says she was in a Clancy-style psychotic break?
• 4:08
  Speaker 11: Yeah, she claims that she was having a total mental
• 4:13
  Speaker 11: washout when she committed this heinous crime against her own children.
• 4:17
  Speaker 12: And I'm with you, Nancy.
• 4:19
  Speaker 11: When is this going to end? I understand baby blues.
• 4:23
  Speaker 11: I understand what happens after a woman has a child.
• 4:27
  Speaker 11: But come on, man, we're killing children years after they're born.
• 4:30
  Speaker 12: And claiming that it has something to do with their birth.
• 4:33
  Speaker 13: Clearly, she was and is suffering. Let's not go back
• 4:38
  Speaker 13: and fall back on the same default position that when
• 4:41
  Speaker 13: a woman that is obviously mentally ill is involved or
• 4:45
  Speaker 13: associated with horrific tragedy like this, we automatically prosecute them
• 4:50
  Speaker 13: criminally to the fullest extent.
• 4:52
  Speaker 11: Of the law.
• 4:53
  Speaker 14: The defendant explained to her aunt that she had tried
• 4:55
  Speaker 14: to kill herself.
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: Ms.
• 4:57
  Speaker 9: Madison asked the defendant where her husband was, and the
• 4:59
  Speaker 9: defendant stated that he was at the lake. When asked
• 5:01
  Speaker 9: where the children were, the defendant told her aunt that
• 5:04
  Speaker 9: she had killed them.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: From our friends at WCVB and WBZ.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: So let me understand the now third Clancy-style killing of children.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: She's talking about, what did she say about the lake?
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Going to the lake, Dave Mack?
• 5:21
  Speaker 11: That's where she said her husband was at the lake
• 5:24
  Speaker 11: because they were trying to identify, well, where was he
• 5:26
  Speaker 11: when this was taking place?
• 5:27
  Speaker 12: So he was not home.
• 5:29
  Speaker 11: Not that dissimilar from all the other men in these
• 5:32
  Speaker 11: cases where they're away from home. The mother knows they're
• 5:36
  Speaker 11: away from home and how long they're going to be
• 5:37
  Speaker 11: away from home when this action takes place.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Tell me the facts surrounding McCausland, who you were seeing
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: right there. Tell me the facts surrounding their murders, Dave Mack.
• 5:50
  Speaker 11: Well, The children were both killed by strangulation, all right?
• 5:54
  Speaker 11: And after, and we're talking about a seven-year-old, Kai McCausland,
• 5:59
  Speaker 11: and a six-year-old, Ella McCausland, both were found dead inside
• 6:03
  Speaker 11: the family's home. And it's the dramatic, horrible part of
• 6:10
  Speaker 11: all of this, Nancy, is again, seven years old and
• 6:12
  Speaker 11: six years old, they know what's going on. The children
• 6:14
  Speaker 11: were both killed by strangulation. After she kills them, McCausland
• 6:19
  Speaker 11: then drives to her aunt's home in Bennington, Vermont, which is,
• 6:23
  Speaker 11: I think, three hours away.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So after killing
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: two of her children in the home, like Clancy, like Walsh,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: by asphyxiation, like Clancy, like Walsh, waiting until, planning until
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: the husband was gone, like Clancy, like Walsh, this woman...
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Jeanette McCausland then gets in her vehicle and drives three hours.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: What happened to the suicide attempt?
• 6:57
  Speaker 11: Well, the suicide attempt happens when she tries to cut
• 7:00
  Speaker 11: her throat after telling her aunt that she has killed
• 7:04
  Speaker 11: her children.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Her throat looks fine to me. What happened?
• 7:08
  Speaker 11: When police showed up, Nancy, McCausland was covered in blood.
• 7:11
  Speaker 11: And again, we're talking three hours of a drive to
• 7:15
  Speaker 11: get to her aunt's house. And tried to cut her
• 7:19
  Speaker 11: own throat.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Lauren Conlon, is McCausland in
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: the hospital getting treatment right now? Is she in intensive care?
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: Well, Nancy, I think that we're missing a really important
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: part here is also the fact that after McCausland attempted
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: to slit her own throat, she drove to a bridge
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: and attempted.
• 7:38
  Speaker 10: To jump off it. I say attempted.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: She actually told police and she told her aunt, quote,
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: she couldn't go through with it. That right there tells
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: me she is sound of mind. And not only that,
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: she was going through a pretty contentious divorce at the time.
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: So there was a guardian ad litem involved to try
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: to work out custody arrangements. It was getting pretty messy.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: So at this point, and it's kind of confusing.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Lauren Collin, you just lost me. That's a
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: non sequitur.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Fancy Latin talk for that does not follow.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: She's in a contentious divorce. 50% of America is in
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: a contentious divorce.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: The answer to being in a contentious divorce is not
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: killing your children.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: So, so what if she's in a divorce? Don't care.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I care about what happened to those children. So let
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: me understand this, this fact scenario. I think you and
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Dave Mack are both right. So she kills the children,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: then decides to go on a three, hour drive to Bennington,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Vermont on Friday night, driving at night. That means negotiating
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: the traffic, negotiating the twists and the turns. Then she
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: shows up covered in blood with a gash on her neck.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: She confesses to the aunt she killed her children and
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: tried really hard to take her own life, but she
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: didn't want to die.
• 9:08
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: How did the children, look at the children, they're dead.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: How were they killed?
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: I know asphyxiated.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Do you know, Lauren Collin, were they strangled with elastic
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: exercise bands like in the Clancy case? Were they hung
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: with a cord in the basement like Corey Walsh's case?
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: What exactly happened to these two little children? Because all
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing about is her and her problems. I'm hearing
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: nothing about them.
• 9:39
  Speaker 10: I know.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: And Nancy, it's heartbreaking. They were found in a bed
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: covered by a sheet, strangled to death. Now, I do
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: not know if she used an apparatus. I believe that, unfortunately,
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: it was with her hands, but I don't know. that
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: all of the details have come out yet because surprisingly
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: their official causes of death have not been revealed by
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: the medical examiner's office in Massachusetts just yet.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Now, her children are dead and we're hearing all about her.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: And I guess the next step is the way that
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Kevin Reddington explained away all of Lindsay Clancy's methodical decisions
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: that she made when killing her children and covering it
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: up from her husband. I guess we're going to hear
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: that happen in McCausland's case.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Now as well. But listen to what her attorney is saying.
• 10:39
  Speaker 12: Clearly.
• 10:40
  Speaker 13: She was in is suffering. Let's not go back and
• 10:44
  Speaker 13: fall back on the same default position that when a
• 10:47
  Speaker 13: woman that is obviously mentally ill is involved or associated
• 10:52
  Speaker 13: with horrific tragedy like this, we automatically prosecute them criminally
• 10:57
  Speaker 13: to the fullest extent of the law.
• 10:59
  Speaker 14: The defendant explained to her aunt that she had tried
• 11:01
  Speaker 14: to kill herself.
• 11:02
  Speaker 11: Ms.
• 11:02
  Speaker 9: Madison asked the defendant where her husband was, and the
• 11:05
  Speaker 9: defendant stated that he was at the lake. When asked
• 11:07
  Speaker 9: where the children were, the defendant told her aunt that
• 11:09
  Speaker 9: she had killed them.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: From our friends at WCVB and WBZ, straight out to Dr.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Chloe Carmichael.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Dr. Chloe is not only a psychologist, she is the
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: author of Nervous Energy, and you can find her at freespeechtoday.com. Dr.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Chloe, I'd like to hear your analysis.
• 11:30
  Speaker 15: Well, Nancy, this is a tragedy. And I just have
• 11:33
  Speaker 15: to say, I noticed that the lawyer had really minimizing
• 11:36
  Speaker 15: language there where he said when a mother is involved
• 11:39
  Speaker 15: or associated with a tragic event, when what actually happened,
• 11:44
  Speaker 15: of course, is that the mother committed filicide. What I
• 11:47
  Speaker 15: think we're seeing here is something psychologists call the blueprint effect,
• 11:51
  Speaker 15: which is where when a person sees how another criminal
• 11:56
  Speaker 15: does a crime and potentially gets away with it, They
• 11:59
  Speaker 15: literally start taking it as a blueprint. One other really
• 12:03
  Speaker 15: tragic effect I think we're seeing here is something called
• 12:06
  Speaker 15: the Werther effect, which is that when a crime is
• 12:10
  Speaker 15: romanticized and the criminal gets lots of sympathy and adulation,
• 12:15
  Speaker 15: maybe even lots and lots of GoFundMe dollars, other people
• 12:19
  Speaker 15: start saying, you know, maybe I could do that too.
• 12:22
  Speaker 15: And then instead of being held accountable, I would actually
• 12:25
  Speaker 15: get lots of adulation and admiration.
• 12:28
  Speaker 14: The defendant confirmed two officers that she had killed her children.
• 12:32
  Speaker 9: After confirming the defendant's residence, Bennington Police contacted the Wellesley
• 12:35
  Speaker 9: Police Department and asked that they conduct a welfare check
• 12:38
  Speaker 9: at that home. Wellesley Police responded to that location, Your Honor,
• 12:41
  Speaker 9: and upon entering to conduct a well-being check, found two
• 12:44
  Speaker 9: deceased children, 7-year-old Kai and 6-year-old Ella McCausland.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: McCausland, this is Judge Corzones.
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: Can you hear me okay?
• 12:51
  Speaker 10: Yes, sir. Do you have the waiver form in front
• 12:55
  Speaker 10: of you?
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: Yes, I do, sir. You understand by signing the waiver,
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: you are giving up those rights, and there'll be no
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: further hearing, and you'll be transported back to the state
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: of Massachusetts.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, sir.
• 13:14
  Speaker 10: I just signed where it says defendant. That's correct. That's
• 13:22
  Speaker 10: what I did.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 13:23
  Speaker 16: Thank you.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Well, it seems like she's come out of her psychotic interlude.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: The acupuncturist mother, Jeanette McCausland, accused of killing her two
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: little children at their Massachusetts home, then takes off to
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Vermont to go to an aunt's home. You see her
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: in court reading and speaking clearly. That was her arraignment.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: To Marie Pereira joining us, veteran criminal defense attorney, domestic
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: violence expert, and registered nurse, an arraignment.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Explain.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: It's when the state presents the charges against you on
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: paper and they outline what codes of the penal code
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: you violated and you get to plead guilty or not guilty.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: In most instances, you're afforded an attorney if you can't
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: afford one, but this is the beginning of the case.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: These two children found asphyxiated, we are told, in their
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: mother's bed. Mom then says she tries to kill herself,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Clancy style, Corey Walsh style, gets in a car and
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: drives three hours at night, leaving the dead bodies behind.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: then says she tried to kill herself and confessed, now
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: claiming she had a psychotic break. Joining us tonight, Dr.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Thomas Coyne out of Tallahassee. He is the medical examiner,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: District 8 medical examiner for the state of Florida. He's
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: also a toxicologist and a forensic pathologist and a neuropathologist.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Coyne, thank you for joining us tonight. Explain to me
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: what these children went through, the two latest children to
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: die Clancy-style. as they were asphyxiated by mommy in mommy's bed.
• 15:15
  Speaker 8: I'll just say, you know, from a medical perspective, when
• 15:17
  Speaker 8: a person is asphyxiated or strangled, when the brain senses
• 15:20
  Speaker 8: that lack of oxygen or blood flow, it immediately activates
• 15:23
  Speaker 8: your fear center, the amygdala in your brain. You get
• 15:26
  Speaker 8: a sudden release of adrenaline and cortisol. You feel panic,
• 15:30
  Speaker 8: this impending doom. And so I can only imagine what
• 15:34
  Speaker 8: they were feeling at that moment in time. Plus, the
• 15:36
  Speaker 8: strangulation is a very intimate experience. type of murder. You're
• 15:39
  Speaker 8: within arm's reach. And so they're looking directly at their mom.
• 15:43
  Speaker 8: They're with the person they trust the most in the world.
• 15:45
  Speaker 8: And then suddenly they have this horrible act performed upon them.
• 15:49
  Speaker 8: I can't even imagine what they experienced. And I'm assuming
• 15:51
  Speaker 8: it was painful as well, because to facilitate the act,
• 15:54
  Speaker 8: I'm assuming she was grabbing the neck very hard, squeezing
• 15:58
  Speaker 8: very hard. And so they had this pain and sudden
• 16:01
  Speaker 8: panic from lack of oxygen, and then, of course, realizing
• 16:06
  Speaker 8: their mom's the one performing this act. I can't even imagine.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Marie Pereira joining us, veteran trial attorney. Marie, I know
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: this latest Clancy-style killing of children occurred during a divorce,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: as Lauren Conlon pointed out. Have you ever seen cases,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I have, where the mother kills the children as a
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: get-back to the father?
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: I have not handled cases like that, but I call
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: it spousal revenge.
• 16:37
  Speaker 14: Absolutely.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: She was in a contentious divorce with her husband. I'm
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: not buying all of this psychosis business, she's saying. And
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: I slightly disagree with you, Nancy, when you put your
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: fingers up and say Clancy style. The only thing that's
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: similar is the manner of death robbing those children of oxygen.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: But none of those women have documented proof of prior
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: death outcries of depression saying they heard voices in their
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: head saying kill your children they were not on dozens
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: of medications and misdiagnosed by health care professionals to my
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: knowledge nobody checked them checked themselves into a lockdown facility
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: so you with this clancy style I don't know, Nancy,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: I love you, but really, that part, I don't think
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: it was Clancy's style when you see that they had
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: no prior history of documented mental health illness.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Marie, let's do what I fondly call a lightning round,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: where you are limited to yes-no answers.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Agree, disagree?
• 17:43
  Speaker 10: Oh, no.
• 17:44
  Speaker 17: Okay.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Number one, aren't both mothers, all three mothers, white females?
• 17:53
  Speaker 12: Yes, agree.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: That's a yes, no.
• 17:56
  Speaker 12: Okay.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Didn't all the children die in the home?
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Agree. Didn't all of these children die at the hands
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: of their natural-born bio mom?
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Isn't that true?
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: Agree.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that in all three cases, the mother
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: waited until the husband was gone to effect the killings?
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Agree with everyone except Jeanette.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not through because you say these cases are not
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Clancy style and they are copycats. Isn't it true that
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: in all three cases, each woman claimed she tried to
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: commit suicide?
• 18:41
  Speaker 8: Agree.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And isn't it true that none of the women ended
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: up dead, but their children did?
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Agree, but no one had prior history of outcries documented.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: We heard that we are going through the similarities that
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: make this a Clancy style killing and a copycat.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Isn't it true that all of these.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Children, one, two, three, four, five, six, all were asphyxiated.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Isn't that true? Correct.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: And isn't it true that all of these children were
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: under eight years old? Every single one. Isn't that true?
• 19:16
  Speaker 10: Correct.
• 19:18
  Speaker 12: Okay.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Straight out to you.
• 19:22
  Speaker 9: Dr.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Chloe Carmichael, that would be enough right there. And I've
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: got so many more.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Killed in the home, in a secluded area of the home,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: to which the mom had sole control, that the act
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: were planned. They were methodically carried out. I've got pages
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: and pages of similarities. This is what we call a
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: copycat or a fingerprint crime.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Explain.
• 19:49
  Speaker 12: Yes, Neal.
• 19:50
  Speaker 15: It's also what psychologists would call a social contagion effect,
• 19:54
  Speaker 15: which is where people get an idea. I mean, for
• 19:57
  Speaker 15: a lot of times, it would be something like anorexia
• 20:00
  Speaker 15: or cutting or other various things where it just kind
• 20:04
  Speaker 15: of seems to go around all of a sudden. I
• 20:07
  Speaker 15: mentioned the Werther effect earlier, which is where there was
• 20:12
  Speaker 15: a killing, a suicide that happened in a murder by
• 20:15
  Speaker 15: a protagonist named Werther. And all of a sudden, it
• 20:19
  Speaker 15: started going around so much where young men were doing
• 20:22
  Speaker 15: the same thing as Werther did that Denmark and Italy
• 20:26
  Speaker 15: actually had to ban the book. This was in the 1700s.
• 20:29
  Speaker 15: This has been going on since the beginning of time.
• 20:32
  Speaker 15: When people see something, they get an idea. And if
• 20:36
  Speaker 15: it works out in any way okay for the person
• 20:39
  Speaker 15: who did it, such as Lindsay Clancy potentially just, you know,
• 20:42
  Speaker 15: getting off and her getting over a million dollars and
• 20:45
  Speaker 15: the GoFundMe and all these things, people start thinking, you know,
• 20:49
  Speaker 15: maybe I might consider that too. So it becomes a
• 20:52
  Speaker 15: social contagion.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: And then you see where Clancy is basically rewarded by
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: over a million dollars being raised for her and her parents.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: And to top it all off, Jeanette McCausland's lawyer, Joseph Krausky,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: tried to get her case dismissed and her to walk free. Yes,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: he stunningly requested that his client be freed and the
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: case dismissed, and this is even though McCausland admits that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: she killed her two children, seven-year-old Kai and six-year-old Ella,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: wanted to walk free. That's not all that is happening
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Clancy, but Just as a side
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: note to Dave Mack or Lauren Connell, let's start with you, Lauren.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: How much money has been raised for Lindsay Clancy and
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: or her parents?
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: Well, as you said, Nancy, it's over a million dollars
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: at this point. And I believe the woman who started
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: the fundraiser, she came out and spoke recently that she
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: had no connection to the family whatsoever. She started this
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: just to raise money to help pay for legal funds.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: And it just seemingly took off.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: The bitter legal battle that had engulfed Jeanette McCausland may
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: have been a source of worry, but that does not
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: an insanity case make. That said, back to Clancy, the
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: holdout juror.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Now being named, we're not naming him.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Here on Crime Stories, named and attacked Clancy. To Lauren Conlon,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: what is happening with the holdout?
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: Well, it truly, it started last week when a few
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: of the female jurors began speaking out. They referred to
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: the lone holdout juror as arrogant, as seemingly not taking
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: the deliberation seriously. And then the juror, Nick, had talked
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: about this lone juror scrolling on his phone, just really
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: painting a picture of of a careless man here. And
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: this is coming after it was stated by the foreperson
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: that he wasn't following the reasonable doubt charge, et cetera. Well,
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: by Friday, one of those female jurors, Paula, gave an
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: interview with Gayle King of CBS, where Gayle King directly
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: asked her, after she described the makeup of the jury
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: having one person of color, Gayle King directly asked her
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: and said, was the holdout or lone juror the person
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: of color? To which Paula answered yes. The Internet seemed
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: to just explode over this. And then later in the
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: evening on September 11th, NBC 10, who did the original
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: interviews with these three female jurors, they released an investigative
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: piece about the lone holdout juror, about how he had
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: a domestic affair. violence charge in the past. He had
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: some unpaid, or he didn't pay his rent and was
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: squatting for six months. I mean, look, he was not
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: convicted of a crime.
• 23:57
  Speaker 10: The charges were dropped.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: I don't think anyone is defending him.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. See, all that that
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: you just said, all of the charges, everything.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, just, I want everybody to just take two
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: seconds and think of the worst thing you've ever done.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: And then to have it reported on national TV and
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: at the end of the litany, the reporter says they
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: were all dropped.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a footnote, right?
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: But the way they described this guy and one juror
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: said he just couldn't get over the fact that Lindsay
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Clancy brutally murdered her children.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Gee, I wonder why. Let's take a look at what
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Lauren Conlon was just describing.
• 24:48
  Speaker 13: It was eight, two, and two.
• 24:51
  Speaker 14: So eight people were leaning towards not responsible.
• 24:55
  Speaker 12: Two hadn't decided.
• 24:58
  Speaker 14: And two thought guilty.
• 24:59
  Speaker 12: 70-ish to 22.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: And one person of color and then everybody else was white.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: A lot of the jurors had children. A black man
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: is a holdout juror?
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: CBS.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: I think, Nancy, it's important to understand the juror was
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: not convicted of any crimes. And when NBC10 published this
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: report on Friday night, September 11th, apparently online sleuths had.
• 25:34
  Speaker 10: No problem getting the case number out.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: And even this juror's name from this allegedly blurred documents
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: on the screen, these case documents. And unfortunately, his name
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: was released. And I am just sick over it. This
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: man did not ask for any attention. He did not
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: ask to be in the spotlight. And yet here we
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: are knowing this. His past and and again, I'm not
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: defending his past. I'm just questioning why I know.
• 26:05
  Speaker 12: About it.
• 26:11
  Speaker 17: Was what insensitive insensitive Insensitive is killing three children Insensitive
• 26:18
  Speaker 17: is ignoring those facts We have an obligation to stand
• 26:22
  Speaker 17: up for those people and seek justice and make sure
• 26:24
  Speaker 17: the defendant gets justice and make sure they get justice
• 26:27
  Speaker 17: so if people Can't understand that. I don't know how
• 26:30
  Speaker 17: I can answer that question. I appreciate the fact that
• 26:33
  Speaker 17: there are strong feelings and opinions tied to this case.
• 26:36
  Speaker 17: Our job is to set aside our feelings and focus
• 26:39
  Speaker 17: solely on the facts. The facts are Lindsey Clancy killed
• 26:44
  Speaker 17: her three children, and the evidence suggested to us that
• 26:47
  Speaker 17: she was in control of her actions when she committed
• 26:49
  Speaker 17: those homicides.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: The prosecutor speaking out, that's WBZ and East Idaho News.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: So much happening in the case, and tonight, the one
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: holdout juror being persecuted. And one thing I couldn't help
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: but notice, Dave Mack, is how the jury vote changed.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: That jurors, one by one, gave up their convictions and
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: went with the crowd until one juror held out. What
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: is happening with the holdout? His name is out there.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: His picture is out there.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: What will happen next?
• 27:25
  Speaker 12: Well, that's actually what is being discussed, Nancy.
• 27:29
  Speaker 11: And I'm glad you brought it up because what can
• 27:31
  Speaker 11: be done in our judicial system where you're sitting on
• 27:35
  Speaker 11: a jury, you're not getting paid to be there really,
• 27:37
  Speaker 11: and you're brought in to judge somebody based on what
• 27:40
  Speaker 11: you've heard. Now, if you don't go along with the crowd,
• 27:44
  Speaker 11: all of a sudden you're going to be outed for
• 27:46
  Speaker 11: all the world to see and pick on you. There's
• 27:50
  Speaker 11: got to be some retribution. There has to be some
• 27:52
  Speaker 11: type of action that this juror can take against those.
• 27:56
  Speaker 11: Because you know what you mentioned? They slowly gave in. Well,
• 27:59
  Speaker 11: we know that there was some intimidation going on in
• 28:01
  Speaker 11: that jury room. There were big personalities is what we
• 28:04
  Speaker 11: were told. And those big personalities kept wearing down until they.
• 28:09
  Speaker 12: Finally got their way. One man, one person had the
• 28:14
  Speaker 12: intestinal fortitude of character. to stand up and say.
• 28:17
  Speaker 11: I'm not going your way. And now he's getting doxxed
• 28:21
  Speaker 11: for that?
• 28:22
  Speaker 12: Come on.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: How did his name leak originally? Or do we know,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Lauren Conlon? I've heard several different accounts of how that happened.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Yes, NBC 10, they blurred his name on the documents
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: that they showed during their television program, but it wasn't,
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: quite blurred enough along with the case number. So online
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: sleuths were able to go online, go onto the docket
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: and look up the case number and then confirm his name.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: That is my understanding. And now several people I know
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: had his name. They chose not to release it, of course.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: And then some people felt otherwise and they chose to
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: put it out there.
• 29:09
  Speaker 10: And again, no one's.
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: Really or truly knows if he lied on his jury form,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: which is also being alleged. No one knows that except
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: for the lawyers and the judge.
• 29:23
  Speaker 10: And again, I just do not.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: Agree with this man's name being doxed and him being
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: attacked just because he did not vote the same way. Again,
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: I wasn't in the deliberation room, Nancy, but from what
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: I observed, this juror, I had a perfect view of
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: him during the two weeks I was inside the courtroom,
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: he would nod at the defense experts. He appeared very engaged.
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: He laughed at a lot of Reddington snark. Clearly, I
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: had it wrong. I thought he was on the side
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: of the defense. But just because you enjoy a defense
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: attorney's commentary doesn't mean that you agree with the case.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: So my experience with this juror was a little bit different. However,
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: I acknowledge I wasn't in the deliberation room.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Marie Pereira joining us, criminal defense attorney. Marie, isn't it
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: a crime to try and intimidate a juror?
• 30:18
  Speaker 10: Absolutely.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: And I commend him for sticking to what his values are.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: This is what the system is all about. He doesn't
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: have to go along with what everybody else says. Now,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: I still believe that she was not responsible criminally because
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: she was suffering from mental defects. But it doesn't stop
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: me from respecting his opinion that she was aware of
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: everything she was doing and she needed to be punished.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: The fact that they leaked his private information and he
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: wasn't even convicted of a crime, to my understanding, it
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: was just a complaint involving domestic violence, which was dismissed.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: If something like that is dismissed, I would think that
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: his attorneys would say, seal it, dismissed and sealed. So
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know what they're trying to say, that because
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: he had a domestic violence case, somehow he had something
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: against women.
• 31:10
  Speaker 10: What's next?
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: It's wrong what they did.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: The man had the right to stick to his guns.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: And that's his right.
• 31:16
  Speaker 10: That's why we have jurors.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Lauren Conlon was describing.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: how the name of the holdout juror was released. But
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I think it goes back to defense attorney Kevin Reddington.
• 31:31
  Speaker 16: They know that they were robbed by one man for
• 31:35
  Speaker 16: whatever his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of the
• 31:42
  Speaker 16: life of these other jurors that were so attentive, so beautiful,
• 31:47
  Speaker 16: so wonderful. And listen to this evidence. And you could
• 31:51
  Speaker 16: see how defeated they were sitting there. And I got
• 31:55
  Speaker 16: a funny feeling that they would have gone on for
• 31:57
  Speaker 16: another week if they had.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: Well, was it a mistake to actually reveal the gender
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: of the juror?
• 32:03
  Speaker 16: I know during the course of the SJC argument, I
• 32:05
  Speaker 16: believe that the gender of the individual was revealed, and
• 32:08
  Speaker 16: then it just followed through after that.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: From WBZ, East Idaho News, and ABC News, Reddington putting
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: a bullseye on the juror's back.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: With that going public, with.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: The Lindsay Clancy family getting over a million dollars raised
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: for them, with her becoming a media darling after killing
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: her three children. Is anybody surprised that there are copycat
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: killers out there? Now we know one of the many
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: reasons people do not want to be on juries. If
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: this is the implication, And there's another issue, Lauren Conlon.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Everyone is leaping to the conclusion that.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: This juror lied.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I recall distinctly on my very first bank robbery case,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I unwittingly put a convicted bank robber on my jury.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And you know why?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Because I didn't ask the right question. It wasn't his fault. Oh,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: by the way, he voted to convict. But that said,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I was a new prosecutor and I didn't want to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: make potential jurors feel uncomfortable. So I didn't say, hey,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: do any of you have convictions? Does anybody in your
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: family have a conviction? Does anybody you know have a conviction?
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I wasn't, I didn't want to upset them or embarrass them.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: So I ended up getting a convicted bank robber on
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a bank robbery prosecution. So I don't know if they
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: asked the juror the right question. Did they say, Have
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: any of you ever been accused in a domestic violence case?
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Not convicted, accused. Have you been a party to one?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Have you been in a civil complaint that alleged one?
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know that he was asked the right question before.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: I jump on any bandwagon that he lied. I got
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: to know if he was even asked the right question.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: Well, there is a form that you fill out that
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: has all of these questions that should reflect what you said.
• 34:19
  Speaker 10: However, just because he.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: Has been charged or accused, that doesn't necessarily bar him
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: from serving as a juror. I did go through some
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: of the Massachusetts laws. And again, if you have been
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: convicted of a crime, it does not mean that you
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: cannot serve. It's clearly up to the discretion of the prosecution,
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: the defense, and the judge here. So these are very
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: seasoned attorneys. And I was a big fan of Judge Sullivan.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: I have to think that they knew about this if
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: they chose him as a juror, but I guess we'll
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: wait and see.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Thomas Coyne is with us. He is a renowned medical examiner.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Even commenting on the case, even having an opinion on
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the case can get you a.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Lot of hate. So Dr.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Thomas Coyne, you are giving us the facts about what
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: happens during an asphyxiation. But even going right down the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: middle of the road, you do know that that can
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: get you a lot of hate, right?
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of detractors. Absolutely.
• 35:30
  Speaker 8: Absolutely. And that's why I think, you know, many times
• 35:33
  Speaker 8: in these cases, medical examiners, they don't rush the judgment.
• 35:35
  Speaker 8: They don't immediately release their diagnoses. They talk intimately to family,
• 35:39
  Speaker 8: to the law enforcement, and they're very much aware of
• 35:43
  Speaker 8: what is placed out there in the press. I mean,
• 35:45
  Speaker 8: we're trying our best to be objective, just be physicians
• 35:48
  Speaker 8: and make our diagnoses based upon the evidence. But still,
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: the fire is placed back upon us. It's a very
• 35:56
  Speaker 8: uncomfortable position to be in sometimes.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Now, another case has reared its ugly head. Two more
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: children dead at the hands of their mother. now claiming
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Clancy's dial psychotic break. If you know anything about the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Clancy case, because it is headed to retrial, please dial 781-934-5656.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Or if you know anything about the Corey Walsh case,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: please dial 815-469-9434 Or if you know anything about the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: brand new Clancy-style murder, and that would be Jeanette McCausland,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: please dial Wellesley PD, 781-235-1212. It seemingly never ended. And
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: that's what we mean by the floodgates are open. Tonight,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: we remember an American hero, Sergeant Patrick O'Rourke, West Bloomfield, P.D., Michigan,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: just 39. Shot and killed in the line of duty
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: after 12 years. Leaving behind his wife, Amy, and their children, Eileen, Mary, Andrea,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: and Stephen. American hero Sergeant Patrick O'Rourke. And let it
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: not escape our attention that all of these women are innocent.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: until proven guilty in a court of law. Each of
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: them raising insanity as their defense. In most jurisdictions, that
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: is what we call an affirmative defense. In other words,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: they say, I did it, but I was insane. And
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: it is their duty to show they did not know
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: right from wrong at the time of the incident. In Massachusetts, however,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: that burden is reversed. The state must prove not only
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: is the defendant guilty, but the state must prove they
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: were sane at the time of the incident. I want
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: to thank all of our guests for being with us tonight,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: but especially to you for joining.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.