Latest / Math Therapy / How a music studio is just like math class w/ Devon Lougheed

Transcript

How a music studio is just like math class w/ Devon Lougheed · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Devon Lougheed: Excitement over small wins goes the longest way.
• 0:06
  Devon Lougheed: just a little bit of encouragement, celebrating the wins even when they're little, celebrating when they're big.
• 0:12
  Devon Lougheed: You gotta celebrate the wins.
• 0:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay guys.
• 0:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to another episode of Math Therapy.
• 0:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's me, Vanessa, I am with Devon Lougheed.
• 0:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why am I with him?
• 0:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who is he?
• 0:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's the deal.
• 0:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So basically I was like, oh shit, I've gotta record an episode for this week.
• 0:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do I wanna talk about?
• 0:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, ugh, so hard to think because I have been in the studio for the past month recording an album with my band, Goodnight Sunrise.
• 0:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And Devon is our producer.
• 0:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: The thing is, I started thinking to myself that the entire time I've been in the studio, you don't know this Devon, but I've been thinking to myself, oh my God.
• 0:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Being in the studio watching Devon at work as a producer is like watching a mathematician.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like watching, our dream, like, don't get like, too, you know, like your ego, like check it, but it's like watching our dream scenario when we think about kids doing math.
• 1:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because so much of what.
• 1:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: I talk about, and my friends talk about in this space is like to be a mathematician, to be somebody who gets through and pushes through their anxiety about math, you have to be willing to take risks, to make mistakes, to like throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.
• 1:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And everything about recording an album is that.
• 1:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually watch you and I'm like, I don't know how you do it.
• 1:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have all these songs, we bring them to Devon, and he puts them together.
• 1:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's like, okay, let's try this guitar thing.
• 1:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's try this drum thing.
• 1:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys, we just put a microphone on a toilet and flushed it.
• 1:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I figured for this week I was gonna interview Devon, not because like music is math in the traditional sense that we all talk about like, yes it is, but because music is math in the sense that, it requires perseverance and resilience and growth and curiosity and experimentation and all of these things that make math class so beautiful that we're trying to interject in math class.
• 1:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 1:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi.
• 1:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Have you ever been on a podcast about math education.
• 2:00
  Devon Lougheed: I have never been on a podcast about math education, but so far I'm having a great time
• 2:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: So far I've done all the talking.
• 2:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I am very curious.
• 2:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: When I watch you, I see a person who is fearless in just trying shit.
• 2:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you seem to not care that like something you do might not work out or we might have to rerecord it, for example.
• 2:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is that, is that how you feel?
• 2:24
  Devon Lougheed: I, I, think so.
• 2:25
  Devon Lougheed: I mean, I think I'm just, this is kind of coming off the top of my head right now with you talking about math, but I, I feel like when I think about math, sometimes I feel like there's only one right answer and only one way to get there, and maybe that's how it feels with musical recording or with all this gear.
• 2:43
  Devon Lougheed: It's like, you know, there's a right way to get the guitar sound that you want, and there's a way that things have always been done.
• 2:52
  Devon Lougheed: But to me, part of the fun of being in the studio is that there kind of are no rules in a lot of ways.
• 2:58
  Devon Lougheed: There can be best practices, there can be ways that people have done it before.
• 3:02
  Devon Lougheed: But a lot of the fun is trying various things and maybe you find a new way to accomplish a tone or a new way to make a chorus, different things like that where experimentation and kind of free play with sounds and music and arrangement, uh, can really produce interesting results.
• 3:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: So have you been in a scenario like, I feel like this has probably happened this week where you've tried something and you were like, oh, that did not turn out well.
• 3:28
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah, I think a lot of times we have to try stuff just to see, and sometimes I'll have an idea or you know, you or David will have an idea and it's like, okay, well's try it.
• 3:39
  Devon Lougheed: And then only by actually trying it we can realize that it was genius level idea or not that great of an idea.
• 3:47
  Devon Lougheed: But then at least having tried it, now we know it wasn't that great of an idea.
• 3:51
  Devon Lougheed: And so we've learned something.
• 3:52
  Devon Lougheed: We come out ahead anyway.
• 3:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so let's like do a little like math regroup.
• 3:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: You could say in solving a math problem, maybe you're like, I have an idea of how I'm gonna solve it.
• 4:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm gonna use this formula, or I'm gonna start drawing a diagram, or I'm gonna whatever.
• 4:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And along that path you discover, it's actually not working.
• 4:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not leading you closer to like the outcome you want.
• 4:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: But in doing that, you have probably learned something.
• 4:16
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 4:16
  Devon Lougheed: I mean, you've eliminated a method, right?
• 4:19
  Devon Lougheed: Or you could say this was not the right formula to use.
• 4:22
  Devon Lougheed: Or maybe, oh look, I actually messed up the formula and I only discovered that by trying it.
• 4:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So here's something interesting you said, and this is what catches a lot of people and we're gonna, we're gonna solve everyone's problems right now.
• 4:33
  Devon Lougheed: Can't wait.
• 4:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: You said that the thing with you started right off the bat by being like, yeah.
• 4:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think the thing with math is that there is usually only one answer and one way to get there.
• 4:42
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 4:43
  Devon Lougheed: Or that it seems like it, yeah.
• 4:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I guess the truth is there is usually one answer.
• 4:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: There usually is only one answer.
• 4:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 4:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like if I was like, what's five plus three?
• 4:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's like, we want you to probably,
• 4:57
  Devon Lougheed: I do know answer.
• 4:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 4:59
  Devon Lougheed: I don't wanna brag.
• 4:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are many ways to get there, So I would imagine for a kid, like, let's put a kid in, like in the shoes of, they're approaching this with creativity.
• 5:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're like five plus three, okay, I've gotta add these things together.
• 5:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have no idea how to do it.
• 5:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: How would like a producer approach that?
• 5:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what advice would you give to this kid?
• 5:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am always a fan of trying to break stuff down into smaller steps.
• 5:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: If it's sort of like.
• 5:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, maybe five, five plus three is very simple, but it's like, oh, I don't understand how to add five to something, but I can add two and a three and a three.
• 5:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or I can visualize, maybe I have marbles, so I'm like, oh, I can have, there's three marbles there, two marbles there.
• 5:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that makes five.
• 5:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I have these other three.
• 5:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, so I always think breaking stuff down into steps might make finding the solution at least a bit less overwhelming.
• 5:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause it's like maybe in math, just trying to figure out, okay, I know I don't know the answer.
• 5:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: What.
• 5:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kind of formula do I need here?
• 6:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I talking about a circle?
• 6:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I talking about, whatever.
• 6:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like I'm being unfair.
• 6:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause you're not a math teacher
• 6:07
  Devon Lougheed: Oh, You noticed?
• 6:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, but no, but, but the thing is, is that's why I am saying, if you approach this as the, you are a producer, you are a problem solver, right?
• 6:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like we come
• 6:17
  Devon Lougheed: Hundo P.
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: We give you a song, and we say, we don't know what this lyric is, what can it be?
• 6:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're like, okay, I'm gonna try some stuff out.
• 6:24
  Devon Lougheed: Totally.
• 6:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's the same.
• 6:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have five plus plus three, and you are not a math teacher.
• 6:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have no idea how to do this, what quote unquote best practices are, but as a producer, how you would go about solving the problem by being like, okay, maybe I've got some marbles, maybe I can relate it to something I do know, yeah, maybe I can just try some stuff.
• 6:43
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 6:43
  Devon Lougheed: I'd be like, well, the last time I did addition, it wasn't these numbers, but this is how I did it and maybe I could use some of the knowledge with that and just roll the dice.
• 6:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 6:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 6:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: So where do we, I'm trying to figure out where we go.
• 6:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're talking about it in such this beautiful, lighthearted way.
• 7:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And part of I'm, I'm actually wondering how much it matters that there is an answer.
• 7:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: How much that detracts from the creativity that you show in the studio where you're like, because like, let me ask you this.
• 7:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: When you're suggesting something on a song, when you're like, okay, we're gonna play the guitar this way, or we are actually going to, um, I want you to go in and record some vocals, do you have an outcome in mind?
• 7:22
  Devon Lougheed: Generally yes.
• 7:23
  Devon Lougheed: I mean, there is a goal.
• 7:26
  Devon Lougheed: And as fun as it would be to just like say, oh, you guys come into the studio for a couple weeks and we'll just see what happens.
• 7:32
  Devon Lougheed: It's, you know, you want an album at the end of it, So I am kind of
• 7:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: There is a result we want.
• 7:38
  Devon Lougheed: There is a result, oh, there's definitely a result.
• 7:40
  Devon Lougheed: But I think the trick is to make it so fun that you guys don't realize I'm pushing us towards a result.
• 7:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Huh.
• 7:49
  Devon Lougheed: You just, you're like, well, we just went in and played.
• 7:51
  Devon Lougheed: Didn't it just feel like we played around today?
• 7:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, what was interesting about today that I noted is, so Devon made me do this thing called scratch vocals, which means you go in and I record the vocals on all of the songs.
• 8:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 8:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what he, but the thing is I was like, I get really stressed when I've gotta do vocals.
• 8:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, oh my God.
• 8:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like
• 8:08
  Devon Lougheed: It's an intense part.
• 8:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm like, the vocals need to sound so good.
• 8:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: My voice doesn't sound great.
• 8:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, and actually I get a lot of anxiety around it.
• 8:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And with our last song that just came out called Over You, the, the first 10 times I did those vocals, my voice kept cracking.
• 8:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually couldn't hit the notes'cause I was so stressed about it.
• 8:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And only when I lit, I literally had to use like Math Therapy exercises to deescalate and go through this whole process to get myself comfortable enough to do vocals.
• 8:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: But my body physically was not hitting notes I am capable of hitting, because I was in anxiety.
• 8:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So today what Devon did that was so interesting I thought, is you were like, oh, well we're just doing scratch vocals.
• 8:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: What scratch vocals are, it means you record vocals, but we're not using them in the final album.
• 8:47
  Devon Lougheed: It's a placeholder.
• 8:48
  Devon Lougheed: You might scratch them out.
• 8:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: You might, oh, is that why they're called that?
• 8:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 8:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you're gonna, so basically you record the vocals so that they're placeholder and then we can record instruments around it.
• 8:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: But Devon sly, I noticed you kind of slyly did this when you were like, you were like, yeah, we're just recording them as placeholders.
• 9:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, if they're good, we'll keep them.
• 9:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, sorry, what did you just say?
• 9:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you were like, well, if they're good, we'll keep them.
• 9:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: But but we don't, we don't to.
• 9:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like, on a few of our songs, I was so un, I was like, okay, who cares that I performed them better than I,
• 9:21
  Devon Lougheed: I think so.
• 9:21
  Devon Lougheed: I think there's one at least if not two, that will use what you recorded today.
• 9:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which crazy
• 9:26
  Devon Lougheed: Because you weren't thinking about it
• 9:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I wasn't thinking about it.
• 9:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were just having fun, like Devon said, there was no stress.
• 9:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I actually am like, that is something in math that we call like kind of lowering the, the stakes, right?
• 9:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like so often kids like know the math, but then they go to do the test and they can't do it.
• 9:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just like with vocals, it's like I know the vocal part.
• 9:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't sing it if I know it's gonna be the final vocal on the song.
• 9:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm like thinking a lot about that and wondering what, I mean, I am not expecting you to have the answer to this, but Well, what are some of the strategies you, because I noticed you're very skilled at deescalating musicians.
• 10:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are some of the things you do?
• 10:03
  Devon Lougheed: I think that it's really fun to find the playful aspects of whatever the task is.
• 10:09
  Devon Lougheed: 'cause, uh, a lot of times,
• 10:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, oh, okay, this is so in line with every, okay, you are
• 10:13
  Devon Lougheed: so, yeah.
• 10:13
  Devon Lougheed: I mean we did spend, like, we had a good time.
• 10:17
  Devon Lougheed: We also spent three days where it's like we need rhythm guitar tracks on all of these.
• 10:22
  Devon Lougheed: So it's like, how do we make forcing David to playing guitar for three days from start to finish the whole day fun.
• 10:29
  Devon Lougheed: Well, we found some ways.
• 10:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what way?
• 10:31
  Devon Lougheed: You know, uh, I think exploring different tones is fun.
• 10:35
  Devon Lougheed: Okay.
• 10:35
  Devon Lougheed: Because it's just sometimes the monotony when it starts to feel like you're just checking off a list.
• 10:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is like a worksheet, teachers who are listening right now.
• 10:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 10:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Checking off a list of things.
• 10:45
  Devon Lougheed: Maybe then it's not quite as fun.
• 10:48
  Devon Lougheed: Or just shifting energy too, if something in that moment isn't working, but we need to get it, it's like, it's okay.
• 10:54
  Devon Lougheed: We've got some time.
• 10:56
  Devon Lougheed: So we could switch gears, try out another tone, or switch some amps or switch.
• 11:01
  Devon Lougheed: Sometimes I would be like, okay, well I, I've just heard this tone so much for two hours.
• 11:05
  Devon Lougheed: Let's try something else and try and keep, uh, the energy up a little bit that way.
• 11:11
  Devon Lougheed: but then again, we also had to kind of focus up and get some things done.
• 11:16
  Devon Lougheed: It's like, it's playtime, but at the end of the day, we do need to get things done.
• 11:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But we need to get things done.
• 11:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: But that, I really like a couple things you say, I just highlight and make the connection.
• 11:26
  Devon Lougheed: Yes.
• 11:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: That idea of play is such a big thing.
• 11:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Research actually shows that kids, especially young kids, learn so much through play and we don't employ it enough in schools, right, so, because when you're playing, you're inflow, when you're creative, you're inflow.
• 11:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's when a lot the learning happens and it doesn't feel so like monotonous.
• 11:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the other thing you said about switching up tones, it's really funny because I think about that as, yeah.
• 11:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: So instead of like, we've gotta get addition done today in school, we're just gonna go with addition because I don't know what your math level is.
• 11:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um,
• 11:55
  Devon Lougheed: I can do most addition.
• 11:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 11:57
  Devon Lougheed: Just kidding.
• 11:57
  Devon Lougheed: Maybe, I don't know.
• 11:58
  Devon Lougheed: I, I'm gonna say yes, I'm gonna be confident,
• 12:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: but thinking about that.
• 12:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Switching up tone to me is a really nice metaphor of being like, and now we're gonna work on it with friends.
• 12:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now we're gonna use manipulatives, or we're gonna write it down, or maybe you're gonna make a video of this concept.
• 12:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or maybe, you know what, why don't you, we can sit on the carpet versus the whatever.
• 12:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: The breaks thing, the idea of like, sometimes you gotta get stuff done and we need breaks.
• 12:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Remember like yesterday when we had a tense moment a little bit, we were kind of arguing about lyrics.
• 12:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you were like, you know what?
• 12:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's go play some shuffleboard.
• 12:28
  Devon Lougheed: Sometimes you gotta play shuffleboard.
• 12:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it was a really chill way you said it, but it was like, yeah, it was literally like just taking the temperature down.
• 12:33
  Devon Lougheed: and then it just is a little reset, you
• 12:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's just a little reset.
• 12:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 12:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I really love that.
• 12:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything else that you find gives musicians anxiety, like performance anxiety?
• 12:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I do honestly think it's the same thing, that you skillfully sort of are able to walk back or like deescalate in order to get the best out of them.
• 12:53
  Devon Lougheed: I know a lot of musicians and non-musicians as well struggle with imposter syndrome.
• 13:00
  Devon Lougheed: And a big part of that is never admitting that you have imposter syndrome because then as soon as somebody thinks you have it, then you know they absolutely, but you know, the fact remains, y'all are in the studio, you're playing the stuff, you sound great, it sounds great.
• 13:13
  Devon Lougheed: That must happen in math as well.
• 13:15
  Devon Lougheed: If you're like, well, I knew how to solve these, but this one is hard.
• 13:18
  Devon Lougheed: I don't actually know anything.
• 13:19
  Devon Lougheed: I never knew it before.
• 13:21
  Devon Lougheed: And so definitely just realizing that even,'cause musicians will have horrible imposter syndrome, and then also kind of be forced to present themselves over confidently.
• 13:33
  Devon Lougheed: And so they end up with a big gulf in terms of how they've been acting and talking.
• 13:37
  Devon Lougheed: And like, you know, we're here to make an album, it's gonna be the Best Rock album that ever existed.
• 13:42
  Devon Lougheed: And then in your head a musician will say like, accept that I'm the only person who actually is faking my whole way through this whole thing.
• 13:50
  Devon Lougheed: And so just a little bit of honestly encouragement, celebrating the wins even when they're little, celebrating when they're big.
• 13:59
  Devon Lougheed: We have a lot of fun in here.
• 14:00
  Devon Lougheed: We make a lot of excellent stuff.
• 14:02
  Devon Lougheed: And it's great to just say like, Hey, this thing we just tracked was awesome.
• 14:07
  Devon Lougheed: That last take you did was awesome.
• 14:08
  Devon Lougheed: You did it.
• 14:09
  Devon Lougheed: You did the thing.
• 14:10
  Devon Lougheed: This rocks.
• 14:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have noticed that like you're, I also wanna say guys, Devon doesn't really know anything about I do any of the language I use, so I actually think it's crazy that you're saying verbatim shit that I say in my book, celebrating the wins.
• 14:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have a whole chapter on that.
• 14:25
  Devon Lougheed: Okay.
• 14:25
  Devon Lougheed: You gotta celebrate the wins.
• 14:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it's so interesting because it's the strategies.
• 14:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is why I say like Math Therapy and the way work we do in math class is not just about the math, right?
• 14:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: These are universal themes and how funny that it's showing up in a creative pursuit that so many people think are the opposite of math and is the exact same feelings.
• 14:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I do notice you do that.
• 14:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you celebrate the wins.
• 14:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're always encouraging.
• 14:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like another thing I'll just say that I feel like you can do is you have a bit of a sense for when an artist, well, like I'll just say myself, when I'm getting stressed out, and you're able to like tap into that and either like, speak to me about it face on, or do something like, be like, why don't we just take a break, get a drink, whatever.
• 15:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or you'll be like, you'll you'll gimme some real talk.
• 15:08
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah, totally.
• 15:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: What kinds of like real talk things would you say to someone'cause it is one of the biggest things matters.
• 15:14
  Devon Lougheed: A hundred percent.
• 15:15
  Devon Lougheed: I think it's always nice when I can identify, an objective skill or an objective reality.
• 15:23
  Devon Lougheed: You know, if you are feeling bad, you're like, I didn't really sing that last one well.
• 15:27
  Devon Lougheed: I'm like, well, David and I were jumping up and down and actually like we, that might be the bridge that we use.
• 15:34
  Devon Lougheed: It's like, well, we liked it and then we, or I play it back.
• 15:38
  Devon Lougheed: I play it back for you, like, oh, I actually really like that, that that was a neat thing.
• 15:43
  Devon Lougheed: It's like shifting kind of your mental perspective on something that has passed by just being faced with other people's opinions.
• 15:53
  Devon Lougheed: If everybody else is saying actually that rocked, then you can agree or somebody whose opinion you respect.
• 15:58
  Devon Lougheed: If you're like, well, like Devon's here to tell me if I need to do it again because it didn't rock enough.
• 16:04
  Devon Lougheed: And so if he stoked, I'm stoked.
• 16:06
  Devon Lougheed: I just think like excitement over small wins goes the longest way.
• 16:12
  Devon Lougheed: And so when I think if, if a student was feeling like this is something that I've never understood or like this kind of problem, this kind of math problem always gets me.
• 16:22
  Devon Lougheed: How about for me long division?
• 16:24
  Devon Lougheed: When I was a kid with two digits, couldn't do it.
• 16:27
  Devon Lougheed: I could never do it, and I would actually just do multiplication on test until I got it.
• 16:32
  Devon Lougheed: I would guess I love it until I got the right answer and it would take me forever.
• 16:36
  Devon Lougheed: Um, so like long division still to this day stresses me out, but I feel like,
• 16:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: shouldn't be in the curriculum.
• 16:41
  Devon Lougheed: Oh, well that's, yeah, there you go.
• 16:43
  Devon Lougheed: Uh, but I feel like you would come and you could say like.
• 16:46
  Devon Lougheed: Okay, well look how good you are at multiplication.
• 16:48
  Devon Lougheed: Look at, you did a, you did the multiplication speed test.
• 16:50
  Devon Lougheed: Are those, take those outta the curriculum.
• 16:52
  Devon Lougheed: Are they still in there?
• 16:53
  Devon Lougheed: That's my thing.
• 16:54
  Devon Lougheed: Those, uh,
• 16:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's a whole other interview.
• 16:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we are trying, Devon.
• 16:58
  Devon Lougheed: Yes.
• 16:58
  Devon Lougheed: Yes, we can, you can edit this You want, but speed tests for the reason that I got to identified as gifted as a young kid by starting to refuse to do them.
• 17:08
  Devon Lougheed: And then when my grade one teacher asked me.
• 17:11
  Devon Lougheed: Why are you turning in these speed test blank.
• 17:15
  Devon Lougheed: I said"I find them pedantic".
• 17:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: No you didn't.
• 17:18
  Devon Lougheed: I did as a grade one So, I was a bit pedantic myself at the time.
• 17:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 17:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Devon, stop.
• 17:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then you got labeled gifted?
• 17:25
  Devon Lougheed: You so then I got to go to a special school
• 17:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Stop, Oh guys Stop it.
• 17:31
  Devon Lougheed: Also, they were pedantic, I was like, they're not proving anything.
• 17:34
  Devon Lougheed: They're not showing that I know anything.
• 17:36
  Devon Lougheed: They're not, I just thought they were silly.
• 17:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 17:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, sorry.
• 17:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: just don't understand how that got you into a gifted school.
• 17:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this shows the problem with labels, everyone like that.
• 17:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's there.
• 17:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Done.
• 17:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 17:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, can we just go back You were talking about, celebrate, no, fuck, how did you get onto this?
• 17:54
  Devon Lougheed: We were celebrating little, oh.
• 17:57
  Devon Lougheed: We, we were finding evidence, undeniable evidence of excellence in related areas when somebody's stressed
• 18:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: oh yeah.
• 18:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're talking about the multiplication.
• 18:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you went on your whole rant.
• 18:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so you were saying, so saying exactly.
• 18:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I really like what, what did you just say there?
• 18:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Undeniable evidence of excellence in related areas
• 18:15
  Devon Lougheed: in very similar related areas.
• 18:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I fucking love that.
• 18:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 18:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: You don't have to compliment the exact thing they're struggling with.
• 18:21
  Devon Lougheed: No.
• 18:22
  Devon Lougheed: No, because also, if they're not doing well at the time, you being like you're doing great is not gonna help.
• 18:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you're not building trust.
• 18:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Think that's part with you is if you're telling me you're doing a good job, you've now established trust with me,'cause I know you're gonna tell me if I need to redo something.
• 18:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: When you say, I've done a good job, I believe you.
• 18:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So establishing, see, I feel like this is funny, first half of the episode, I was going in one direction, but now I realize your real, the real expertise right, is like the, the guide, the coach, you are a math, you're like a a a music therapist.
• 18:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: A music studio therapist.
• 18:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so I will say one other thing.
• 18:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: This again applies to math.
• 18:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are very good at making me feel less alone and less as though the problem I'm experiencing is a me problem.
• 19:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: So for example, if I'm like, oh my God, I just feel like the song isn't like hooky enough and like it's never gonna get played on the radio, you're so good at being like, listen, the reality is like the songs that get played, like 0.1% of songs will get played on the radio.
• 19:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you don't need to think about that.
• 19:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not just you.
• 19:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me a bit about that.
• 19:22
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah, I think, any way of being a bit relatable or, acknowledging, like if somebody's singing, okay, here's a good example.
• 19:31
  Devon Lougheed: So like, David today was singing something and the way that he was singing it, I'm like, oh man, I'm like, that's how I would sing it and how somebody helped me before.
• 19:41
  Devon Lougheed: It's just like an opening of a vowel sound, and it's something we're all told and we're supposed to do as singers, but it's easy to forget.
• 19:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: By the way, the tip is to turn an E into an A
• 19:49
  Devon Lougheed: Yes.
• 19:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: So instead of saying instead free, You'll hear it in our song Over You.
• 19:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because Devon taught me, instead of going free, I go free.
• 19:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, I don't.
• 19:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I
• 19:59
  Devon Lougheed: free,
• 19:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: free.
• 20:01
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 20:01
  Devon Lougheed: Think about how Katy Perry sings.
• 20:03
  Devon Lougheed: She's doing it all the time.
• 20:05
  Devon Lougheed: Okay.
• 20:05
  Devon Lougheed: Or Tom, from Blink 182, if you're into the punk music, those, those folks sing quite a lot of val mods.
• 20:12
  Devon Lougheed: But rather than me saying,
• 20:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Vowel modification
• 20:14
  Devon Lougheed: rather than me just saying.
• 20:15
  Devon Lougheed: David, you're singing this wrong.
• 20:18
  Devon Lougheed: You need to use this vowel modification technique.
• 20:20
  Devon Lougheed: I think it's just like coming at it by like, Hey, you know what really helped me out, that you're actually gonna love in this situation, and it's, it's just like that.
• 20:29
  Devon Lougheed: It's just like fun.
• 20:30
  Devon Lougheed: It's just like you do a lot of playtime, you figure out a lot of things and then it's exciting to share that knowledge
• 20:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you depersonalize it and you made it seem like you were in it together.
• 20:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: You like, you know what helped me out.
• 20:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're in this together.
• 20:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, I feel like we could just make a handbook right now of all these tips.
• 20:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll say one last thing,'cause David is giving us the wrap up sign he does.
• 20:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause now he's the producer for once this month.
• 20:51
  Devon Lougheed: Hey, he's been in a podcast when it's gone on too long as well, so he understands.
• 20:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, another thing that I think is really important.
• 20:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm thinking about, you know, we have students of all different skill levels in our classrooms at any given point in time and celebrating, you know, the fact that one of them could add five plus eight while the person next to them is adding 5 million plus 800.
• 21:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: It, it might be easy to forget that they are both equally large wins for each individual, depending on context and depending where they're, and this is what I will notice, I know I'm not like even close to the best singer you've ever like produced in here.
• 21:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you know mean?
• 21:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like right, not that we're supposed to be comparing, but I'm sure, like I, let's, let's just, I can't hit as high of a note as someone else, but if I hit something that is like my personal best or I know is good for me, you will make a deal of it as though like Celine Dion hit the highest note for her.
• 21:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you know what I mean?
• 21:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're like comparing who I am now to who I was yesterday as opposed to who I am now to who else someone else is today.
• 21:50
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 21:50
  Devon Lougheed: Honestly, the other projects, everyone is at such different levels or such different points of their music.
• 21:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: and we're using levels in
• 21:59
  Devon Lougheed: you know, levels or like what, what different people need.
• 22:02
  Devon Lougheed: They're just, all the projects are different and.
• 22:05
  Devon Lougheed: I just know if some, well, my goal is if somebody has come in and we've worked on their song, they are leaving with the best version of that song and the best experience making it.
• 22:16
  Devon Lougheed: And ideally some excitement and knowledge that will push them to make more music because it is, can be very unrewarding to, to pursue.
• 22:25
  Devon Lougheed: and I just think that's worth trying.
• 22:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is so nice.
• 22:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Devon, this has been so great.
• 22:33
  Devon Lougheed: I've been having a great time.
• 22:34
  Devon Lougheed: Their album, the album rips people aren't ready for it's actually so good
• 22:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: And Devon, Devon wasn't lying that it's so unrewarding to put on music,'Cause you know, you throw it into the ether, so you can go listen to our latest single Over You that Devon produced, and taught me how to do a vowel mod you'll hear on the final chorus, instead of saying free, I say fray.
• 22:54
  Devon Lougheed: Yes.
• 22:54
  Devon Lougheed: But it sounds, our minds know it's free.
• 22:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, our minds, okay.
• 22:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, check it out.
• 22:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell us what, text the podcast, you link is in the show notes and let us know what you think of the free versus fray.
• 23:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 23:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final two questions I ask everyone.
• 23:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, I actually, I think the listeners will probably wanna know, is not one of the questions, but like what kind of relationship do you have with math?
• 23:11
  Devon Lougheed: I always loved math.
• 23:13
  Devon Lougheed: I think I had two best friends who were slightly better at math than growing up, and I was slightly to a lot better at music than them.
• 23:23
  Devon Lougheed: And so we did sort of find our paths that way.
• 23:25
  Devon Lougheed: The math I loved, and would probably do now if I could just do it casually, was finite math In high school it was fun I just was like, oh, this is the fun math where it's like you've got imaginary numbers and you there kind of was less of a focus on the right answer and more focus on playing with these ideas about math, and I know that might not apply to like all mathematical scenarios where you are trying to get a right answer.
• 23:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, but the funniest thing about what you said is is a hundred percent about a right answer.
• 23:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I think you just literally proved everything you've said.
• 24:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: There is a right answer in every finite slash data management question.
• 24:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: What we call it now in But because it's so playful, it's like probabilities and trying to figure out like permutations and different combinations of things, you probably were feeling so much more creatively invested
• 24:15
  Devon Lougheed: hundred
• 24:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: the right answer wasn't throwing you off quest for it.
• 24:18
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 24:18
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah I think I agree
• 24:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is very cool.
• 24:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And by the way, you said if you could just do it today casually, you could.
• 24:23
  Devon Lougheed: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can.
• 24:24
  Devon Lougheed: Just do data man, management.
• 24:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or just like some math.
• 24:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: We can find you some math to do.
• 24:28
  Devon Lougheed: Just do some math,
• 24:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: even though you're doing every, okay.
• 24:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final two questions we ask everyone.
• 24:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number one, what if someone was listening to this and they were like, no, this is cool.
• 24:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I totally get what you're saying, it's just like, I'm actually gonna switch it for you.
• 24:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if they were like, I'm just not like a music person.
• 24:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I just couldn't, like, I can't really like do it.
• 24:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't just like make an album.
• 24:47
  Devon Lougheed: You know, I do think everyone has a lot of potential to be a musician.
• 24:53
  Devon Lougheed: And in a lot of ways, anybody can do it.
• 24:56
  Devon Lougheed: I think there are like, the ways that systemic barriers and discrimination have made it harder for people to, uh, pick it up naturally.
• 25:05
  Devon Lougheed: And maybe like sometimes people seem to glom onto it more naturally than others, but I don't know if that's like a biology driven thing.
• 25:12
  Devon Lougheed: I think that has more to do with like, access and opportunity and that sort of thing.
• 25:17
  Devon Lougheed: And so I guess like, maybe it's the same with math, I'm not sure.
• 25:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would, would you be like, you know what, come into the studio and let me like, like let's make some music together.
• 25:27
  Devon Lougheed: I think everybody should try at some point in their life.
• 25:29
  Devon Lougheed: It's a very fun thing.
• 25:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love it.
• 25:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 25:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And finally, if there was one thing you were gonna change about the way math is taught in school is, what would it be?
• 25:37
  Devon Lougheed: Ooh, I feel like saying"how could they make it more fun" is a silly thing because I think that's always the goal of most teachers.
• 25:45
  Devon Lougheed: But, thinking back, I probably liked finite because I had a teacher who was able to make it fun, given that it's now got a very boring sounding rebrand, uh, it's gone from being finite, which is actually infinite, to something with data and that's, I guess, people wanted jobs, which also makes sense.
• 26:01
  Devon Lougheed: I can't be like, I'm a finite mathematician.
• 26:04
  Devon Lougheed: It's like, great, well I we're at a grocery store, so, uh, yeah.
• 26:08
  Devon Lougheed: So, but, but I do think, like, even in the studio, it's like I try, the more fun we have, the better the stuff is, and that's a simple thing.
• 26:18
  Devon Lougheed: And so a lot of times I'm just trying to figure out what type of fun people like to have all while trying to get the album done secretly.
• 26:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What type of fun people like to have?
• 26:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna leave us on that note.
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is a beautiful call out to teachers of all types of, just try to figure out what type of fun your students like to have all the while, while secretly trying to teach the content you need to teach.
• 26:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love it.
• 26:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Devon, thank you so much.
• 26:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for doing this.
• 26:46
  Devon Lougheed: Should have our own new podcasts.
• 26:47
  Devon Lougheed: You need more podcasts.
• 26:49
  Devon Lougheed: Uh, just,
• 26:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just hang in.
• 26:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just, okay.
• 26:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's the end.
• 26:55
  Devon Lougheed: We're done.
• 27:01
  David Kochberg: That was great.
• 27:01
  David Kochberg: And my favorite part of it was when Devon used the word pedantic non ironically, because there's one song on her album where I've been 50 50, on including the word pedantic as a lyric, and now I'm, I've moved over to a hundred percent going in.
• 27:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: What the song's about, the listeners wanna know what the song's about.
• 27:18
  David Kochberg: Uh, sign up for the presale.
• 27:20
  David Kochberg: Yes.